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Missouri Kidnapper Tells Reporter He Was Lonely
Aired January 22, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, an alleged child predator turns celebrity. A 41-year-old pizza parlor manager charged with snatching two little Missouri boys straight off the street, holding them captive, one for years, is giving jailhouse interviews to the media. Michael Devlin is turning into a media star. And people, that is wrong!
Plus: Why didn`t one little boy victim leave when he had the chance? Tonight, we have some answers.
And also tonight, Amber Alert for a young Indiana mom and her four children, kidnapped from their own home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The four children that are missing range in ages between 8 and 16 months old. The eldest of the children, he`s a severe asthmatic. It`s been told to us that he requires to be placed on a ventilator every several hours for his asthma problem. The ventilator is still here at the house in Elkhart. So we don`t know what his condition is at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight. First, to Missouri.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This case is really being tried in the media, and it`s not fair. You know, we`re asked questions, Well, how can you enter a plea of not guilty? Well, we don`t have any evidence. Mr. Devlin is presumed innocent. If this trial were held today, it would be a not guilty verdict because there is no evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`ll say this, I think there`s definitely something to be gained by showing that our client has a human side, but there`s an appropriate time and a place to do that, and that picture has to be painted by his legal counsel and Mr. Devlin himself.
QUESTION: Have you thought about the prospect of Shawn having to go to court and testify against him?
PAM AKERS, SHAWN HORNBECK`S MOTHER: Yes, we have. And it`s something that I`m sure Shawn doesn`t want to do. It`s something that I really don`t want to have to put Shawn through that again. You know, he lived it for four-and-a-half years. Why make him relive it? One thing I would like to say to him is if he has any decency in his body, he would do the right thing and not make these boys go through that again.
CRAIG AKERS, SHAWN HORNBECK`S FATHER: It`s obvious that there was something, some way he was manipulated to where he thought that that wasn`t an option. You know, he was 11 years old when he was taken. He was very young, very impressionable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If she is referring to Michael Devlin doing the right thing, is she talking about pleading guilty? That`s not going to happen. In fact, the 41-year-old manager of a local pizza parlor has pled not guilty. That will ensure that if the state goes forward, these two young boys will have to take the stand in a crowded courtroom and tell a jury of their ordeal. At least, that`s where it stands tonight.
But so much more has been happening in the case of Michael Devlin. Let`s go out to Arian Campo-Flores with "Newsweek," who has done extensive work on this case. Welcome. Thank you for being with us.
ARIAN CAMPO-FLORES, "NEWSWEEK": Thank you.
GRACE: You have interviewed so many different people in the case, people that knew Shawn Hornbeck, friends, other neighbors, neighbors near Devlin`s apartment. Your article is fascinating to me. What did you learn?
CAMPO-FLORES: Thank you. Well, I guess we could start with Tony Douglas. I think it`s one of the most significant interviews we had last week. Tony was Shawn`s best friend during the time that Shawn was in captivity. He spent virtually every day together with Shawn, playing. He had sleepovers at his place. Shawn sometimes slept over at Tony`s place. So he has a pretty unique insight into...
GRACE: OK, wa-wa-wa-wa-wait. Arian Campo-Flores with us from "Newsweek." So you`re telling me, this is what a lot of people don`t understand, Arian, is a little boy, Shawn Hornbeck, he was there for many years, according to police, kidnapped, but he never tried to get away, even went to sleepovers over at a little friend`s house?
CAMPO-FLORES: Right. Yes. I mean, that`s one of the kind of perplexing questions in this story is that he -- you know, he seemed to live a pretty free lifestyle and yet didn`t seize opportunities to leave. He had -- according to Tony, you know, the two would ride their bikes freely, sometimes late at night. They were picked up for being out past curfew several times by police. You know, they had plenty of time unattended, playing video games and...
GRACE: Arian, didn`t he even go to police on one occasion when his own bicycle had been stolen?
CAMPO-FLORES: Yes, it`s been reported that he -- about 10 months after being -- after disappearing, after being abducted, that he called police to report a missing bike and that the police, you know, responded to him and actually spoke to Michael Devlin, as well. And yet, you know, he didn`t seize that opportunity to report that he had been, you know, kidnapped, so -- and there were other instances, you know, like that, where he came into contact with police, with Michael Devlin not there, so he would -- you know, he would have an opportunity to say something but didn`t, probably because he was terrified.
GRACE: Well, you know, mind control is a very fascinating and complex matter. We have heard that the little boy was kept awake all night long on 45-minute intervals. Neighbors -- which is incredible to me -- out to you, Melanie Streeper with 550 KTRS radio -- that neighbors heard moaning and wailing and loud thumps and curse words, yelling, using the "F" word in the middle of the night. And nobody ever did anything? You know, everybody knows 911. I am no stranger to dialing 911 whenever I hear a thing. I`m surprised these neighbors heard sobbing and moaning and just sat on their thumb.
MELANIE STREEPER, 550 KTRS RADIO:: Yes, just surprising that no one really wanted to get involved, but I guess that`s just society that we live in, Nancy. People just don`t want to get involved for fear that they could be wrong.
GRACE: Here`s what the defense attorney had to say. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was met by a -- someone who didn`t really describe themselves as a reporter, but more or less described themselves as a family friend. Once she gained access, unauthorized access into the jailing facility, she conducted two brief interviews with him and gained some information. We don`t know the exact content of that information or what her notes or recordings say. But we brought it to the attention -- to the Franklin County jailing authorities. They assured us that it would not happen again.
Anytime you have unauthorized, unrestricted access into a jailing facility, you`ve got problems, especially with a case like this.
She, again, used the ruse that she was a family friend. And when she, you know, got in to see Mr. Devlin, she misrepresented to him who she was. So you know, he had no reason to believe that she was any type of reporter or that this wouldn`t make the press, or the statements would make the press in any way.
Our client has not even been able to read the article. From what Mike and I know about our client, the facts that we know, we know that there are certain inconsistencies, inaccuracies in that article. But we`d like first an opportunity to discuss it with Mr. Devlin, and then Mike and I will formulate an approach on how to rectify those inaccuracies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are many people who assume that there was some kind of sexual abuse involved.
CRAIG AKERS: Of course.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that that`s the case?
PAM AKERS: That`s one of the questions I have in my mind. Of course, it`s -- you know, it`s a question that no parent -- that every parent is going to go through their mind. That`s one of the questions I will be asking Shawn when the time`s right, and when he feels that he can talk about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And still more developments tonight, late-breaking developments regarding a local reporter going into the jail and having in- depth interviews with the suspect, the suspect that police say nabbed two little kids off the street, broad daylight. It`s amazing to me that that happened.
Let`s unchain the lawyers. Joining us tonight from the California jurisdiction, Daniel Horowitz. Also with us tonight out of New York, Michael Mazzariello. Out to you, Daniel Horowitz. What the heck is going on with the jail? That`s not the way federal jails work. That`s not the way jails work in large jurisdictions or metropolitan areas. You don`t let just anybody waltz in and let this guy turn himself into a media star, talking about all of his problems, how he`s a lonely guy.
But you know, frankly, now that I`m adding it all up, two plus two is four. Correct. Did you see what he said to the paper? I`m a lonely guy. I`m afraid to tell my parents. Hello? Tell them what? I can`t tell you if I`m attracted to women or what my sex preference is because that could hurt my trial. My friends started falling away in 2002. Hello? That`s when Hornbeck got kidnapped. You know, it`s a prosecution`s dream, but why don`t we just all march over and camp out and have a meeting with Devlin and find out what happened, Daniel?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it is a prosecutor`s dream, but I applaud the reporter who got the story. Just because this fellow was accused of a crime, Nancy, he does not give up any of his constitutional rights. And the 1st Amendment, the right to speak to the press, belongs to him, not his lawyers, even though I respect their position, not to the jail, which tries to lock him up away from the press. He can talk to the press. She got the story. Too bad for him that he hurt his case. But she did a great job and I support her.
GRACE: Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, as a defense attorney sworn to do all you can for your client, you want your client talking to a reporter, a cute girl reporter, not once, but twice? What -- what are you talking -- you know what? Never mind...
HOROWITZ: Nancy, I wouldn`t let my clients talk to you, either.
GRACE: To you, Michael Mazzariello. Has this...
HOROWITZ: But they have the right to do it.
GRACE: Has this guy lost his mind? He`s talking to the press. Not that I think the press should get back into the jailhouse. There`s obviously no rules whatsoever as to who can come and go. You know, you could go back there with, what, a file? If you`re a 10-year-old little boy, can you get back there to talk to Devlin? I mean, how does this thing work, Michael?
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Anyway, Nancy, no talking to the press whatsoever. The first thing you tell your client is, If you don`t recognize the person, if you don`t know them, if you don`t trust them, don`t talk to them. Now the prosecutor has more evidence, inconsistent statements, more statements. And you know what, Nancy? it could have hurt the prosecution had Mr. Devlin given information about other children maybe he molested, other children that he had kidnapped. And this reporter could have botched the whole thing.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, also served with the FBI. Mike, explain how the visitors list is supposed to work at the jail.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, I tell you, when I was covering the Scott Peterson case out in Modesto for CNN, I put my name on a list, hoping to get an interview with him if he had me up, but he didn`t.
So with this particular case, apparently, this woman is a student at Washington University in St. Louis, and apparently, she worked on the school newspaper there. She is a senior. The school did verify that. And she was apparently given a list by a real reporter, and she walked in. He was able to look at her and say, OK, well, yes, have her come in. And then there was no direct contact, apparently, at the jail. There`s a very thick wall and bullet-resistant glass which they talked through. He visited twice. But you know, if he wanted to have a visitor, I guess he can have a visitor.
GRACE: Well, long story short -- back out to the lawyers, Michael Mazzariello and Daniel -- the Constitution protects defendants, suspects from the arm of the government. There`s Miranda to protect them. If Miranda is violated, their statement or confession will be suppressed. We see that down in Florida in the John Couey case right now. His confession is not coming into evidence because Miranda was not followed.
But what you blab to the press, Michael, is fair game. Everything he said to this girl reporter is coming into evidence.
MAZZARIELLO: Absolutely. And as a defense attorney, I want to subpoena those records. I want to know how this young woman lied and deceived the authorities to get in. And I want the videotapes. I want the recordings. I want everything she wrote, Nancy, everything.
GRACE: Well, Michael, do you really think that attacking the girl reporter is going to help at trial?
MAZZARIELLO: No. Nancy...
GRACE: You think the jury`s going to be more concerned that she wrote "friend" on the visiting list than what he wrote...
MAZZARIELLO: I don`t want...
GRACE: ... about being asexual, and his friends going away in 2002, exactly when Hornbeck was kidnapped, all of the oddities he mentioned to this reporter? You think they`re going to be worried about how she got into the jail?
MAZZARIELLO: Well, it goes to her credibility. And she lied going in...
GRACE: She`s not on trial!
MAZZARIELLO: She`s not on trial. But I want her records, is what I want. I want what she took down...
GRACE: Hey, look...
MAZZARIELLO: ... her notes...
GRACE: ... go read "The New York Post." I think you can learn just about everything that happened.
MAZZARIELLO: I want part it, Nancy. We want all her scratch notes. We want all of her stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re not getting her records. She`s going to keep those records. The press is protected from turning over the records. You`ll get what was published in "The Post," nothing else. And "The Post" will back her.
GRACE: Well, bottom line, I think that that is plenty. Take a listen to this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAM AKERS: I don`t want everybody to think that he had this perfect life with this guy. There`s no way he had a perfect life with this guy. Shawn was happy at home. He had a good home. I know he wanted to be at home. So for people to speculate that he had every opportunity to get away, you know, I`d just like to remind him he`s the victim. He`s the child. He was 11 at the time. He wasn`t 15. He wasn`t an adult. Devlin was the adult, and he should have done the right thing and not taken the boy in the first place.
CRAIG AKERS: He was 11 years old when he was taken. He was very young, very impressionable. You know, I`ve heard experts say that a child of that age can be mentally reprogrammed in a very, very short period of time, days even, less than a week. And you know, obviously, something had to have happened for him to feel like that it was not possible for him to just walk away.
PAM AKERS: He actually has told us, you know, Mom, I`m not 11 anymore, I`m 15. And I just explained to him, you know, You`re still my little boy. You`re still the 11-year-old that was taken from me. And it`s going to take time for me to be able to let him out my sight and let him out on his own. So at this point, he has no problem with either us being with him or his sisters being with him, or some other family member. He understands that. And hopefully, eventually, we`ll be able to give him his space that he needs. But at this time, there`s not going to be any space there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The parents of the little boy kidnapped. To Dr. Robi Ludwig. Explain what she means by the child being reprogrammed. You know, Robi, they have done this test a million times, where you tell a kid, Don`t get in a car with a stranger. You wait five hours, kid goes in the front yard. They have someone come back in a car. The kid gets right in the car with a stranger. They`re children. They can`t help it.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right. And very often, these pedophiles are extraordinarily manipulative and seductive. They give gifts. They make it very attractive. And also, this kid was probably brainwashed to some extent and frightened so that what looks like freedom to the outside world wasn`t really freedom in his own mind. So he was more like a war refugee. But that is the $1 million question that everybody is going to want to have the answers to. Why didn`t he leave when it seemed like he had so many people he could tell his story to?
GRACE: Back out to Arian Campo-Flores with "Newsweek" magazine. Fantastic article delving into this. Arian, did Devlin give him gifts?
CAMPO-FLORES: Yes, he did. According to Tony, he gave him an Xbox. He gave him a computer, a bike, an iPod. In Tony`s words, Devlin spoiled him. And so you know, he had plenty of things to play with. Some people say that might have sort of, you know, made home life a little more bearable for him. But clearly, from the comments that you mentioned before, and interviews I did with the upstairs neighbor, there was a lot of disturbing sounds coming from behind those doors. And so probably, life was much harsher than that.
GRACE: Arian, did the neighbors explain why they never bothered to find out what was happening or call police?
CAMPO-FLORES: Yes, it`s -- you know, that`s a really good question. And what many of them said is that, first of all, in that apartment complex, people said that people just sort of stayed to -- you know, kept to their own business and didn`t really meddle in other people`s affairs. So that may be one of the explanations. And the other is that, you know, they felt like if he had -- if he really was a kidnapped kid, that he would have spoken up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM AKERS: I believe Shawn will come to us when he`s ready. We`ve always been close. He`s always been comfortable with us. But I think part of the reason why he hasn`t yet is because he doesn`t want us to hurt anymore. He`s just wanting us to enjoy the time that we have and to focus on the good things. But eventually, I do believe Shawn will tell me all of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Devlin says that he`s free to confront his mother and father, now that he`s been arrested. The Missouri pizza shop manager accused of kidnapping two boys tells "The New York Post," "I don`t know how I`m going to explain myself to my parents. It`s much easier talking to a stranger about these things than your own parents." Devlin says he had few friends, telling "The Post," "I guess you could say I was lonely. All my friends started getting married and having kids. Hanging out with friends just becomes a lower priority."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So I kidnapped a little friend and brought him home and kept him there for four years! Where`s he going with this, Melanie Streeper? Melanie with us from 550 KTRS Radio. Everything he said to this reporter - - I`m calling her a girl reporter because isn`t she still in school?
STREEPER: Yes. We were told that she is a student at Washington University here in St. Louis. So it`s certainly a weird situation.
Nancy, one thing I want to point out is that Devlin`s attorneys, they were really outraged that this happened, that she was allowed to come in there. They said it was a breach of security on the part of the Franklin County police department. Franklin County sheriff fired back, saying that is not the case, said they have never had any situation or security breach over the past 20 years.
GRACE: Well, you know, when you really think about it -- see, I don`t like the fact that he`s turning himself into a media conduit, putting his story out there. But the reality is, what he said will hurt him at trial. He`s pled not guilty. It`s headed straight for trial. But of course, the lawyers are going to try to blame the jail. Their client let her in!
STREEPER: Oh, yes. Yes. Absolutely. They are -- there`s a lot of finger pointing going on. But again, Toelke said, you know, We have not had a situation like this in quite some time, and we have lots of security there. We`ve got the concrete walls. We`ve got the bulletproof glass. And he said that Devlin is an adult and he is allowed to see whoever that he wants to see.
GRACE: OK. So everybody`s blaming each other. But the defense attorneys blaming the jailhouse is not going to wash. I don`t like them allowing him to become a media darling or a celebrity, but those are the rules. That`s rules they`ve got set up, and that`s what he, Devlin, agreed to.
Question to you, Melanie Streeper. Is it true he actually tried to complain that it was noisy in the jail?
STREEPER: Well, that is something that...
GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo!
STREEPER: Yes, that is something. I guess he`s right next to where they process the inmates and so...
GRACE: Maybe they should let him out into GP, general population. Maybe he`d like that better, Melanie.
STREEPER: Yes. Yes. There you go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Devlin says that his time in jail is difficult. He can`t sleep, he says, and he`s isolated. "They keep me away from everyone because they think I`m dangerous." He insists he`s not. In spite of the trauma Devlin may have inflicted on Shawn Hornbeck for four long years, Devlin claims that for him, at least, life with the boy had been good. "I guess I was relatively happy," he says.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Just when we thought it couldn`t get any creepier, 41- year-old Michael Devlin, the former manager of a pizzeria now accused of kidnapping two little Missouri boys in broad daylight, keeping one hostage four years, gives jailhouse interviews where he reveals for the first time that he doesn`t want to talk about his attraction to women and maybe he`s asexual.
To Daniel Horowitz. Did I really need to know that? How is a jury going to take that?
HOROWITZ: You know, Nancy, this is a case where -- he`s obviously very sick. He`s probably been abused in his childhood.
GRACE: Oh, I`m sorry! Was that my question?
HOROWITZ: It`s not...
GRACE: I don`t believe that was the question.
HOROWITZ: Well, it`s...
GRACE: Are you just trying to hide from the question?
HOROWITZ: Well, you know,you don`t want to hear what this guy`s about, and I don`t blame you. It`s disgusting what he did. But if we get into his psyche and understand that there is a cycle of abuse, an abuser as a child...
HOROWITZ: ... becomes an abuser as an adult.
GRACE: ... do you have one shred of evidence that Devlin was abused as a child?
HOROWITZ: In my experience, 90 percent of the child molesters were abused as kids. I predict -- it`s a prediction, no evidence yet -- that we`ll find this is true with him also.
GRACE: Out to Julie Missouri. Hi, Julie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His parents live here in town, in St. Louis. And my question is, how do you know your son at 41 doesn`t have -- has a child in his home that`s not his?
GRACE: Excellent question. Robi Ludwig?
LUDWIG: Obviously, they didn`t have any type of relationship during that time, or he was able to hide it and mask it. It is mind-boggling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This last four years, we`ve heard so many stories that the outcome wasn`t what we were hoping for, that he had been hit by a car, he had been killed. And, you know, I can relate countless stories of how he was killed, and what happened afterwards, and what was done with him.
And, you know, it`s just so disturbing to even think of those. But, you know, at the same time, you tell yourself that, "Well, we have to look into it, because if there`s even one shred of truth there, then that`s something that we have to consider, and, you know, if that`s the case, then that`s the case." And, you know, so we followed up on those. But never did we think that, yes, this is probably what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: They say they always believed their little boy was still alive and, in fact, a miracle. Two little boys snatched in broad daylight, one four years ago, found alive.
Tonight, new developments. The alleged perpetrator behind bars giving media interviews. I guess he`s the king of all media now. Michael Devlin, enjoying his status, in a special cell, behind bars complaining it`s too loud for him to sleep.
Let`s take a look at what he`s having for dinner tonight. We`ve gotten the menu from the jailhouse. Let`s see. Chicken-fried steak. Now, I don`t know if you know what that is. That`s a hunk of steak, fried like fried chicken. Rice. Peas and carrots, 2 percent milk. Glad he`s not getting too much fat to clog up his arteries. Don`t want that. Want him to make it to trial. Ham and cheese soup, and fruit.
I haven`t even had dinner yet. Have you people had dinner? Have you had anything in your stomach since this morning?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s making me hungry.
GRACE: Maybe since 9:00? And is it true, Melanie Streeper, he actually complained it`s too loud for him behind bars? Please tell me that I`m wrong, please.
MELANIE STREEPER, KTRS RADIO: No, no, his cell is actually next to where they process the inmates. And, you know, it`s just too loud for him. And so, yes, he was complaining.
GRACE: Well, another thing about these jailhouse interviews -- and you`ve got to commend the student that went back there. And he, of course, allowed her to come speak to him. Let`s take a look at other people that gave interviews prior to their trial.
Didn`t help Scott Peterson very much, that interview that he had. It was aired over and over. In fact, it became evidence at trial.
Now with Simpson, he gave plenty of interviews that made him so notorious. But he managed an acquittal.
Darrell Littlejohn, remember Imette St. Guillen? This guy gave plenty of interviews. He`s headed for life without parole.
Justin Barber, we showed you that jailhouse interview with Jean Casarez on Friday night. That was prior to trial, Justin Barber.
Then David Berkowitz, remember Son of Sam? These are his known victims. He ended up with a conviction.
Ted Bundy, of course, was, oh, so happy to give interviews. These were some of his known victims. As you know, he was put to death.
Jeff Dahmer, he got the death penalty from another inmate, after his jailhouse interview. Jeffrey McDonald.
Who could forget Wayne Williams, the notorious Atlanta serial killer? He loved the media. It didn`t help him when he got life behind bars.
And, of course, Michael Jackson. Eek! He gave plenty of interviews. We all thought they were damaging. The jury disagreed.
Let`s go back out to the lines. Lucy in New York, hi, Lucy.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I can understand that the mom doesn`t want the child on the stand because of trauma. But I don`t understand the mother has a child on talk shows revisiting the trauma. You know, that`s appalling to me.
GRACE: You know what? I`ve heard a lot of that, Lucy. I`ve heard a lot of that. And there are a lot of trials where the parents don`t want the children to go forward, such as Elizabeth Smart, because they allegedly don`t want her to have to live through that. I understand that. But that leaves it less likely there will ever be a conviction.
Out to Paulette Norman, she`s a victim`s rights advocate and founder of the McKay Foundation, author of "Waltz with Insanity," what do you have to say in response to Lucy?
PAULETTE NORMAN, MCKAY FOUNDATION: Our boys and girls need to be protected, and our boys and girls -- we need to be very sensitive when they have been through trauma, that we respect their privacy.
GRACE: What do you make of the interviews and the parents` determination they don`t want him to have to testify at trial?
NORMAN: I have mixed emotions. I`m not sure exactly what I would do. It would depend on the circumstances.
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, I mean, I think a lot of people feel Oprah is such an important person that, if they can get their child on the show, that somehow she will help them. But, in general, I don`t think it`s a good idea to put a child in front of the media, because they still haven`t made sense of the situation themselves, and they should get a therapist to make that evaluation and decide whether it`s healthy or not.
GRACE: Well, I notice that Ownby`s parents were on Oprah, but no Ownby. The little boy was not on. Another issue is that, Robi, when you go on a show like Oprah, which has such a huge impact around the world, you are bringing attention to the issue itself and alerting other parents. So there is good in that sense. But when it relates to the little boy`s own psyche, what can it do?
LUDWIG: Well, it can be very damaging, because there`s so much shame, especially when there is sexual abuse, that it can interfere with the healing process, where the child really needs some privacy and some time to talk out whatever was traumatizing him. And I really don`t think he should be exposed to the media any more until a therapist has evaluated him and said that it`s OK.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sandy in Delaware, hi, Sandy.
CALLER: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: OK, I have a question. They`re saying that she went in on the pretense as being a friend. However, in the interview, he did speak and say it`s easier to talk to someone who`s not a friend, who`s a stranger. So he`s admitting that he did not know her. He willingly gave that interview.
GRACE: Oh, you know, in my mind, she came in under false pretenses, and he allowed it. But, you know, Sandy, I don`t like the fact that he is using the media as a tool. I don`t like that. The way we`ve seen a lot of people, like Michael Jackson, O.J. Simpson, try to use the media to their benefit, in their own way, tainting the jury in their favor. I don`t like it.
But when you look at it, Sandy, she had false pretenses, but he allowed it. So is there any alternative to it, Michael? I mean, I don`t think anybody`s going to get in trouble or be censured for this. The defense lawyers will pay for it at trial.
Come on. He admits he can`t talk to his parents, about what? What is it that he`s embarrassed to tell his parents, that he is asexual, he won`t describe any relationship with women? And he said, in 2002, all his friends went missing, and that`s when the boy was kidnapped.
MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, she got into the jail. He willingly gave a statement, big mistake, in my opinion. The first thing you tell your client is, do not speak to the press, do not speak to anyone you don`t know. That`s the bottom line. And now it`s free game. It`s bad for the trial. It really is.
GRACE: Back out to Melanie Streeper, 550 KTRS radio. Melanie, in any way did Devlin confess or any of his comments to the reporter viewed as an admission?
STREEPER: Well, no, he did not make a confession to this reporter that came in over the weekend. So, no, he did not.
GRACE: How about to police?
STREEPER: We are told that he did confess when he was initially arrested.
GRACE: Confess to which aspect, do we know? Devlin confessing to Ownby or Hornbeck?
STREEPER: We`re told that he confessed to kidnapping Ben Ownby specifically.
GRACE: Do you believe any more charges are going to be filed, Melanie?
STREEPER: Yes, absolutely. We believe that more charges will come, specifically from St. Louis County. Devlin lived in Kirkwood, which is in St. Louis County. So he could face charges there, as well as some federal charges, too.
GRACE: Back out to Arian Campo-Flores, with "Newsweek." Wrote an incredible article, everybody, in "Newsweek." Right now it`s on the stands. There you go, on the stands.
Arian, in this case, I know that law enforcement is going to conduct interviews with Ben and Shawn. Do we know when that is going to happen?
ARIAN CAMPO-FLORES, "NEWSWEEK": We don`t know exactly when that`s going to happen. It sounds, though, that they must have had some preliminary conversation with Shawn, though, because, when they brought the charges in Washington County on Shawn, they included the allegation that Devlin had used a gun...
CAMPO-FLORES: ... in the commission of the kidnapping. So that was new information, so they must have spoken to him, at least preliminarily.
GRACE: And Melanie Streeper of 550 KTRS, is Devlin being investigated in the disappearances of these other children? Notice with Hornbeck, four years went by before Ownby was kidnapped. The others, there are periods of years between the kidnappings, and all within the same area, same M.O.
STREEPER: Well, I can tell you what, Nancy. Late last week, a task force was just formed to deal specifically with Michael Devlin. And they`re going to be investigating some cold cases of missing kids throughout the area, and even around the country, that have gone missing within the past several years.
GRACE: Everyone, we will come back, Amber Alert. Police need your help tonight. A young Indiana mom, her four little children kidnapped from their own Indiana home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors along Francis Avenue and Elkhart hoped to see 31-year-old Kimberly Walker and her four children back soon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s scary. I mean, I have two kids of my own and I`d be really, really scared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors say Walker had been living in the house for about a year. Police say, this weekend, Walker`s sister and her boyfriend were visiting her, after she had problems with her ex-boyfriend and father of their children, 30-year-old Jerry White. Early Saturday morning, authorities say White broke into the house, shot the sister`s boyfriend, and abducted the four children and mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The shooting victim tonight in critical condition, taking a gunshot wound to the face and the chest. Liz, let`s show a picture of the little children one more time. Look at this little girl, Kayla Walker. She`s just 16 months. Look how cute.
Out to David Heinzman with the "Chicago Tribune." Tell me about this kidnapping. Any idea where these children are tonight?
DAVID HEINZMAN, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Well, I think they believe they`re somewhere either around Elkhart, Indiana, which is about two hours east of Chicago, or perhaps a little closer to Chicago. Both Mr. White and the victims here have pretty strong Chicago roots.
So the police in Chicago have been looking at and sitting on a handful of addresses on the west side of the city that are former addresses for Jerry White. But I think it seems that they don`t believe they`re in Chicago right now. So I think that the Elkhart police may think they`re still around that area.
GRACE: You know, to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop and formerly fed with the FBI, Mike, they`re dead on. Why is it -- and I used to notice this all the time -- somebody breaks out of jail, somebody commits a crime, they go straight home. It`s like a homing pigeon.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: They really do, Nancy. They go home, and they go to a relative`s house, somewhere where they`re comfortable, where they know the area, because they feel comfortable in those surroundings.
GRACE: Surprise me, Brooks. Go check in at the Hilton. Do anything, instead of running home to your mom, and the police are sitting there on the front porch waiting for you to walk up.
BROOKS: Well, they haven`t found him, yet, Nancy...
GRACE: They will.
BROOKS: ... so right now, law enforcement, they`ve -- absolutely. It`s just a matter of time before the Elkhart police, the Illinois state police and the FBI, who`s now in the case, also -- they`re going to be checking drugstores, because the oldest girl, the 9-year-old girl, Jaylan, she apparently has a severe asthma condition and has to use a respiratory every two or three hours. So they`re checking -- I know if I was an investigator I would be checking the local drugstores, I`d be at all the hotels checking to see if there`s a family of five checked in...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Put up Brooks` face for a moment please, Elizabeth. You want to tell me a guy who shoots another guy in the face, takes off with this mom, at gunpoint, with all these children, he`s going to stop for asthma medication?
BROOKS: Wherever he is held up. Number one, you`ve got a young child, Nancy. You`ve got to get diapers for that child. You`ve got to go somewhere to get diapers. And where else are you going to get some kind of asthma medication? At a drugstore. So, again, that`s just...
GRACE: That`s prescription, Mike. What do you think he`s going to do, give the kid`s name?
BROOKS: Well, there`s other ways to get this, too. There`s other over-the-counter medication he could use. But the kid, that 9-year-old child is -- that`s a dangerous situation, especially when you have severe asthma like that.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, take a look at this. My question is why the guy was out on the street anyway.
BROOKS: That`s a good question, too.
GRACE: 2004, domestic protective order. Dismissed. 2003, kidnapping and battery, 18 months. 2002, drug possession. I know there`s more: `98, battery. Here`s the one that`s troubling to me, aggravated kidnapping. You know, that usually carries a 20-year penalty. In `96, conviction on unknown charge. We don`t know what that is yet.
Here`s the reality. He`s traveling, Mike Brooks, with four children and the mom. How hard is that going to be to stay undercover?
BROOKS: Extremely difficult. In fact, they`ve already recovered the car that they left in, apparently. They recovered his car, also. They recovered his car not too far away from the house.
And so they`re checking now for stolen auto reports, because they`ve got to be somewhere. They`ve got to be in some kind of vehicle. The Amber Alert has been put out for all these children. But, again, Nancy, it`s very difficult to travel with this many children, and especially one that has a medical condition and one that`s so young.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... four children that are missing range in ages between 8 and 16 months old. The eldest of the children is about 8 years old, like I said. He`s a severe asthmatic. It`s been told to us that he requires to be placed on a ventilator every several hours for his asthma problem. The ventilator is still here at the house in Elkhart. So we don`t know what his condition is at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, we`re concerned for all four children. But Jaylan kind of ups the ante a little bit with his medical condition.
There are several things that we`re using right now, as far as some tactics, as far as trying to locate them. And because the investigation`s ongoing, we`re not going to release what those tactics are at this time.
We consider this to be an absolute emergency. Young Jaylan, we have done a lot of searches and checking with drugstores and places of that nature to see if there`s been any type of like asthma medication purchased. There`s nothing along those lines that have led us to believe any of that`s been done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back out to David Heinzman, reporter with the "Chicago Tribune." I know you`re saying that there are relatives there in Chicago, so police definitely think that`s where he`s headed?
HEINZMAN: No. They don`t know -- as I think Mike said earlier, it`s typical for somebody, when they`re on the run, to seek out people who might give them shelter, family and friends, because these people have so many Chicago roots. That`s an obvious place to look.
But so far -- you know, when our reporters were out at these addresses yesterday, the Chicago police were sitting in pretty plain view. So I don`t -- you know, I don`t know how much they expected that he would actually come back there. I think it was a base they needed to cover.
GRACE: You know, right, to be there in case he showed up. Back out to Mike Brooks. Mike, my fear is that we already know he will shoot, in that case, shoot to kill. He shot the guy right head-on in the face.
GRACE: My concern is, at a certain point, if he is this desperate, that he`ll turn the gun on the mom or the children.
BROOKS: There`s always that possibility, Nancy. And that`s why law enforcement feels it`s so necessary to find this guy right away. It is. I mean, we know he has a propensity towards violence. His family says, "Oh, no, he wouldn`t hurt anybody." But look at his rap sheet. Look at what he did. He shot the guy in the face and chest, and then held the family -- he held everyone in that house for 9 1/2 hours before he left. This guy is considered armed and extremely dangerous, Nancy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. White, from our investigation, has been determined to have an extensive criminal history. Some of those things do include some domestic battery issues, with Kimberly Walker being the victim of those. We`re still investigating how extensive that is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As of tonight, not sure what vehicle they may be traveling in. Back out to you, Mike Brooks. Where do we go from here?
BROOKS: Well, Nancy, there`s, again -- stolen auto reports right now are something I would concentrate on if I was an investigator, try to find out anyone in the area that had a car stolen in that particular time, because it looks like he keeps dropping cars off.
There`s also his cell phone we can take a look at. Also, and if he`s using any kind of bank card, any credit cards, because he`s going to have to get money somewhere to support these four kids and a woman along the way, no matter where he goes, if he stays in Elkhart or if he decides to go to Chicago.
GRACE: And last, Robi, my concern is, if he`s desperate enough to shoot someone in the home, what will he do?
LUDWIG: Well, he`s in danger of killing all his kids. This is a guy who`s not in control of his impulses, and he`s a very dangerous man. So this is very serious. The sooner we can find him, the better everybody will be.
GRACE: And you see the tip line, 1-888-58-AMBER.
Let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Brent Dunkleberger, just 29, New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania, killed, Iraq, on his second tour. Dunkleberger served aboard Army Humvees, receiving the National Defense Medal and the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. Always had a big smile on his face. Leaving behind grieving widow, Lisa, four children, ages 2 through 11. Brent Dunkleberger, American hero.
Thank you to my guests. Thank you for being with us. NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.