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Nancy Grace
Federline Spurns Big Divorce Settlement
Aired February 01, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Lowdown! It`s a showdown in court. Divorce courts have never seen anything like it. With an ironclad pre-nup locked in, believe it or not, Kevin Federline turns down a $25 million divorce offer tendered by superstar Britney Spears. But employment- challenged Federline has two major bargaining chips, his two biological sons with Spears. I am K-Fed up! Federline, get a job!
And tonight: A mom takes on her daughter`s killer, who`s making money off the gruesome murder from behind bars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has established a Web site where he has obscene drawings, pictures of dismembered and murdered women. He`s tried to contact my client, giving gruesome details of the -- of the -- of what happened to her daughter. We`re alleging that he is sending material out of the prison. Don`t turn around and walk away! You can`t evade your responsibility for this. This man is tormenting this -- this murderer is tormenting my client from death row, and he`s making money off it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First to Hollywood.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRITNEY SPEARS: I think my fans are going to fall completely in love with him, just like I did. He is the sexiest thing in the world and he`s very sensitive, and he is the perfect husband. He`s awesome.
It`s kind of interesting to see how we fell in love, got in fights. Everything, you know, is just kind of there.
KEVIN FEDERLINE: I don`t know how much fights it shows.
SPEARS: Well, it doesn`t show all the fights. But you can feel the tension.
I think everything happens for a reason, and I would be -- I`m happier doing this right now.
FEDERLINE: It`s like a "Saturday Night Live" skit on myself. When I moved from Fresno to LA, life came at me fast. I quit everything I knew and started a whole life over, as I`m doing right now in `07. You know, I`m starting a whole life over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Federline! Fries!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Life comes at you fast.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Nationwide annuity could guarantee you income for life.
FEDERLINE: (RAPPING Nationwide is on your side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Man, I hate to be a spoiler, but that is the Super Bowl commercial that you football fans are going to see. Wonder how much Federline got paid for that.
Big question out to you, David Caplan. You`re the deputy New York bureau chief with "Star" magazine. You think they`ll play that in divorce court?
DAVID CAPLAN, "STAR" MAGAZINE: Yes, I think they will. I mean, it`s a pretty -- you know, shows Kevin`s singing talents, rapping talents.
GRACE: It`s not really that bad. After Papazao (ph), I thought it was all over for him, but really that`s not that bad.
CAPLAN: It`s not. I agree, to be honest with...
GRACE: For 15 seconds, it`s not bad.
CAPLAN: It`s not bad, 15 seconds, you`ve got to sort of tame (ph) yourself.
GRACE: So bottom line, to you, Jean Casarez, divorce courts have never seen anything like it. Remember $25 million -- isn`t that what Princess Diana got from Prince Charles, $25 million? And Federline thumbed his nose at that? What the hey is he thinking?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, he`s rejecting it. Well, it`s one of two things, Nancy. Either he says he wants his children, that`s the issue, or a skeptic would say he wants the money. He wants a lot more money than the $25 million.
GRACE: To David Caplan with "Star" magazine. What did the $25 million offer entail?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, this is a classic payoff, $25 million for Kevin to relinquish custody, plain and simple. And that`s why he`s not taking it. He wants to be...
GRACE: Wait a minute. She wants him to totally relinquish custody, give up, sever parental rights? That`s what Britney Spears wants?
CAPLAN: Absolutely. That`s why it`s so shocking.
GRACE: The girl with the no underwear?
(LAUGHTER)
CAPLAN: The same girl! She`s...
GRACE: Not that I`m throwing stones. I wouldn`t do that.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Alex Sanchez, Anne Bremner and Gloria Allred. You know what Oscar Wilde said, Gloria? Be careful what you ask, my dear, for you will surely get it. I would advise Britney Spears to go ahead and give him that visitation, as much as he wants. When you don`t know a horse, look at his track record. How often does he go see his other kids, by Shar Jackson?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, good point, Nancy. And by the way, good advice to young women. Not only think about the person you`re going to marry and how it would be when you`re married, but how will he be if, as and when you get divorced?
In this case, we don`t even know, frankly, if it`s really true that $25 million was offered and then rejected because lawyers have a practice of not talking about what settlement offers are made or settlement offers that are rejected. In this case, they`re unidentified sources. We don`t know if this is just a PR ploy on somebody`s part or whether, in fact, it`s true.
GRACE: OK. To you, David Caplan. "Star" magazine broke this legal news which is shocking the divorce court world. It`s hard for me to think that Federline could actually keep the lid on a $25 million offer.
CAPLAN: Yes, I mean, it`s insane. But I mean, that`s what`s being put forth to him, and he doesn`t -- you know, he doesn`t want it. He wants more money and -- but you know, I am hearing, as well, though, that he would take less money if he could at least see his two kids, who are 16 months and 4 months. You know, they`re so young. He really wants to be with them. And he`s not going to go under Britney`s terms.
GRACE: He wants to be with them.
CAPLAN: Isn`t that sweet?
GRACE: Does he want to be with them as much as he wants to be with his other kids?
CAPLAN: You know what`s interesting? Because he was not a great dad with his two kids from Shar Jackson, and now we`re sort of seeing Kevin Federline reborn. So you know what? No. But it`s interesting that we`re seeing he -- one, he`s taking fatherhood more seriously. He`s not partying as much.
GRACE: What? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! David Caplan, we try to have at least a shred, a speck of evidence to support our theories here, so...
CAPLAN: I`ll give you the evidence.
GRACE: ... if he`s a good father -- OK, tell me about him being a good father.
CAPLAN: OK. Let`s compare the two.
GRACE: That will earn him more than $25 million in divorce court.
CAPLAN: OK. Kevin Federline -- he`s cleaned up his image. He`s no longer gallivanting around nightclubs. He`s no longer hanging out with strippers, Which we reported endlessly during his marriage to Britney Spears. He now has several gigs lined up. He`s getting paid by Nationwide. He`s doing nightclub appearances. He`s still working on his music. He`s the face of a clothing line company.
Britney Spears, meanwhile -- she`s, you know, hanging out in clubs, not wearing underwear, hanging out with Paris Hilton. Who do you think now is coming across the better parent? Kevin Federline is even in Miami, you know, for the Super Bowl, staying at a fancy hotel like the Catalina Hotel, which are very popular in South Beach, but I`m hearing he`s not misbehaving like he did when he was married to Britney.
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! Wait, wait, wait! So Anne Bremner -- Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer -- I`m supposed to think Federline`s a better father and deserves more than 25 mill because he`s staying at a nice, exclusive resort at the Super Bowl? Where`s his kids? Are the kids with him there?
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, the thing is, you know, I was thinking of Oscar Wilde -- I always like to talk about myself and I expect everyone else to do the same. Britney Spears out there -- you know what she wants, Nancy? It`s like Michael Jackson. She wants to buy the kids. And I`m defending Kevin Federline on this one. He doesn`t want to sell them. And the fact is, if you ask anybody...
GRACE: No, he wants to use them as a bargaining chip to get more money.
BREMNER: Well, all of those other arguments are out there. But the bottom line is, is that these are his children. And you ask any parent, What amount of money would you take for your children, $25 million? That`s where that -- and that`s an argument, Nancy.
GRACE: You know what...
SPEARS: And I`m with K-Fed on that part of it.
GRACE: To you, Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Lady Justice is not like a jackpot machine. She`s not the lottery. She`s not an ATM, where you push the right buttons and you get money out. That`s not what this is about, bartering child custody and child visitation to hold out for a larger lump sum settlement. And many people suspect that is what is going on here. He`s turned down a $10 million, a $20 million, and now a $25 million divorce settlement.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: You know, first of all, Nancy, I`m with Gloria Allred. I have a hard time believing this story is really true, and I`ll tell you why. Parents who are in custody disputes notoriously pervert, distort and lie about the intentions of the other parent. So I could see Britney saying something like, Kevin, I`ll pay you a little bit more money if you abide by the terms -- the impending terms of our custody agreement, and he`s hearing, This girl`s going to give me more money to go away. So I would be taking a look at those distortions.
And the other thing is he needs her notoriety because he`s trying to establish his, I guess, really more of a flagging media career, but he needs the media and the limelight. So what is he going to do without her? I really think the kids are being used as a pawn.
GRACE: I can tell you one thing. Liz, let`s see the video. I don`t know if you know that Federline has a budding wrestling career ahead of him. I guess you didn`t see him take on Cena (ph), the WWE champion. Of course, it was all spoiled when Humongo (ph) came into the court and tore him up, basically threw him out of the ring. Wonder how much money Federline made off that.
Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEDERLINE: It`s like a "Saturday Night Live" Skit on myself, you know, and that`s kind of how I`m taking it. I`m here to make everybody laugh on this one.
When I moved from Fresno to LA, life came at me fast. I quit everything I knew and started a whole life over, as I`m doing right now in `07. You know, I`m starting a whole life over. So I mean, that`s just a couple examples of how life comes at me fast.
Even when you`re a teenager, you`ve got to make decision that`s are life-changing decisions, whether or not you want to move out, whether or not you want to move away to another city, you know, follow your dreams or go to college. You know what I mean? It`s a lot of different situations. So I think life comes at everybody fast.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Of course, in response to Kevin Federline`s Super Bowl ad, which we`re all anticipating, the National Restaurant Association wrote this letter of complaint. The commercial, they say, actually offends fry cooks at Burger King, McDonald`s, Wendy`s, you name it.
Now, I don`t know what I`m supposed to interpret from that, Alex Sanchez, but let`s get back to the pre-nup. Why do we even have a pre-nup if the first thing you can do is bust it in court and go from $10 million to $20 million to $25 million, Alex?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because if someone is worth $100 million, like Britney Spears is, she wants to make sure that she doesn`t marry into somebody who`s simply going to try to walk away with her money.
But you know, I`d like to know why everybody seems to believe that this fellow is doing this simply because of the money. Isn`t it within the realm of possibility that maybe he loves his children and wants to be able to see his children? Isn`t it rather egregious that Britney Spears should make such a preposterous offer, that he should simply surrender his kids? I believe that he loves his kids and he wants to see his kids, and he`s doing the right thing by fighting in court.
GRACE: Alex, how many times has he seen his other two children by Shar Jackson?
SANCHEZ: You know something? Those are the other two children, and I wish he would see those children more. But these are his kids now. He`s expressed an interest in those kids...
GRACE: Are the other two no longer his kids?
SANCHEZ: No, they are his kids, and I hope...
GRACE: So which kids did you does he love?
SANCHEZ: You know what? I hope he makes necessary arrangements to see those children.
GRACE: So he does want his kids.
SANCHEZ: But we`re talking about the children he has with Britney Spears. And if he has children with Britney Spears...
GRACE: No, you said he loves his children and he wants to see his children.
SANCHEZ: Right. The ones by Britney Spears...
GRACE: What about those two children?
SANCHEZ: Well, you know something? I`m not aware of the situation between her and his former wife. But between him and Britney Spears, he says he loves his kids. Who is anyone to doubt that?
GRACE: Well, you`re the one that said he loves his children, Alex. I`m pointing out that he is not seeing his children by Shar Jackson, which makes me question, Is this just a ploy to make more money?
SANCHEZ: I don`t think it is. Twenty-five million dollars...
GRACE: Of course you don`t.
SANCHEZ: ... is certainly enough money for anybody, Nancy.
GRACE: Out to Kathy in Indiana. Hi, Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I`d just like to know how much of the Super Bowl money, for the Super Bowl commercial, is he actually going to pay in child support.
GRACE: Excellent question. Out to you, David Caplan. David is with "Star" magazine. They broke the story that a $25 million divorce settlement by Britney Spears has been turned down by Federline. Is he paying child support since Spears actually has custody of the children?
CAPLAN: I mean, he doesn`t need to give Britney money necessarily to -- you know, for the kids. But I know -- you know, I know Kevin. He spoils these kids. He`s always buying them very expensive clothing, very expensive gifts. So it`s not as if he`s doing this commercial, he`s pocketing, you know, the few hundred thousands dollars that he`s going to be getting...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait. What expensive clothing and gifts for -- they`re little tater tots! I mean...
CAPLAN: These kids -- listen, they are so -- there`s designer baby clothing out. And I know it sounds shallow, but it`s true. You`d be shocked that they can spend thousands and thousands of dollars on these kids things. It sounds a little outrageous to most people, but this is the lifestyle they`re used to.
GRACE: OK, Elizabeth, as much as I love seeing Kevin Federline in his full-length mink coat, this is about the law.
To you, Jean Casarez. Has he filed any kind of counterclaim?
CASAREZ: Well, the day after she filed the petition for divorce, he did file that counterclaim, and he asked for spousal support. That means money. And then he also asked for the sole custody of the kids.
GRACE: Did you hear that, Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: And I think that perhaps may boil down to some type of bargaining chip. But you know, why shouldn`t he play hardball? She`s the one that is playing hardball, demanding...
GRACE: Well, you`re certainly changing your tune.
SANCHEZ: Right -- demanding that he surrenders the kid. And when you put somebody on the defensive, well, you know what? He`s going to sit down, talk to his lawyers and say...
GRACE: You know what?
SANCHEZ: ... If you play hardball, I`m going to play hardball. And that`s what he`s doing now.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, you`re the kind of lawyer, when you represent a defendant at, say, murder, you go, First of all, I didn`t do it. But second of all, if I did, it was self-defense. And third of all, I was insane during the whole entire episode. You`ve got to stick with one theory. Is it about the love of his children? Is it about money? What`s it about? This is not the kind of defense you can waffle on.
SANCHEZ: It`s about the love of his children. And it`s so obvious because the most money he could possibly get from Britney Spears...
GRACE: Twenty-five million dollars!
SANCHEZ: ... is one half of the amount of money that the parties made while they were married. And unless Britney Spears made more than $50 million in the last two years, the most he could possibly expect after trial is $25 million. She probably did not make more than $50 million. She probably made $20 million. So chances are, if he goes to trial, he`s actually going to lose money, Nancy.
GRACE: To you, Shannon in Indiana. Hi, Shannon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, What kind of world are we living in nowadays where we can just use our kids as pawns for money? You know, what effect is this going to have on the children?
GRACE: Gloria Allred, response?
ALLRED: Nancy, first of all, he`s going to have a right to see the children. I think the real issue is going to be whether or not he is seeking full legal -- full physical custody of the children, whether he is seeking joint legal custody. We don`t know the answer to that. But he`s going to have a right to visit them, even if she has the children.
Now, if there is a pre-nuptial, as reported, it`s unlikely that he`s going to be able to bust that. He is, however, going to have to pay child support unless she doesn`t need it, which she may not.
And by the way, this whole issue of gifts, he`s giving gifts -- you know, I just hate it when fathers say, Well, I`m giving gifts, but I don`t give child support. I hope he`s also giving child support, even if she doesn`t need it, because she has a right to have the child support to use as she needs to use it for the children while she has custody of them. And yes, sometimes fathers do use children as bargaining chips, even though they shouldn`t.
GRACE: To you, David Caplan, with "Star" magazine. Do we know how much Federline got paid for the Super Bowl ad?
CAPLAN: I`m hearing that he got, you know, a few hundred thousand dollars for the ad, so...
GRACE: So is that $200,000 or $900,000?
CAPLAN: We`re looking more the $200,000 range, not $900,000.
GRACE: Repeat?
CAPLAN: So less expensive presents.
GRACE: How much?
CAPLAN: About $200,000.
GRACE: And did any of that go to the children, David?
CAPLAN: No. In gifts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEDERLINE: We work together with everything, so it`s -- it`s -- she does what a wife does for a husband, and I do what a husband does for a wife. I mean, you know, if I really -- if I am ever down, which is very rare -- very, very rare -- you know, I mean, she`ll talk. You know, she`s the only one that I can really go to that understands (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you`re best friends, as well?
FEDERLINE: Oh, definitely.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Kevin Federline story is really topical. And I think everybody in America knows about what`s going on in Kevin`s personal life in `07 and `06 and in `05. And to capitalize on that and use his story is sort of terrible, but it`s really appealing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Many people coming out of divorce court claim they`ve seen nothing like it. Challenged in unemployment, Kevin Federline has turned down a $25 million divorce offer from Britney Spears. Used as a bargaining chip, possibly his two biological children from Spears.
Out to David Caplan with "Star" magazine, who broke this story. It`s my understanding that as of right now and through the end of February, he is allowed four hours a day, three days a week visitation with the children at Spears`s home. Correct or not?
CAPLAN: Correct, 12:00 to 4:00 Monday, Wednesday and Friday, Kevin is at Britney`s Malibu home.
GRACE: Does he actually show up?
CAPLAN: He shows up. He`s good. He`s changing his ways.
GRACE: Listen, just because someone follows the rules leading up to a divorce contest, I don`t know that that necessarily equals changing a lifetime of behavior. So what are the conditions on that visitation, David?
CAPLAN: I mean, basically, no one can be there who`s not Britney, who`s not Kevin, or sort of their immediate nannies. There can be no outside people who are going to interfere with his visit. It`s supposed to be very just -- you know, close-knit visit, and no drama there.
GRACE: Question. Out to you, Gloria Allred. It seems to me that when a pre-nup goes into place, as they did have here -- I believe it was - - all in all, he`ll get about $7 million from the sale of the Malibu home, and then some money out of the pre-nup. Does it anticipate the birth of children, or does the birth of children null and void a pre-nup?
ALLRED: It may not anticipate the birth of children, or it may. But the birth of children does not invalidate a pre-nup. And further, in a pre-nup, they cannot, as a matter of law, decide who`s going to get custody if there are children born of the marriage, and they cannot waive child support. That would be against the law and public policy. They can`t give that up.
GRACE: So totally against public policy. Out to the lines. Marjorie in Florida. Hi, Marjorie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, Does Kevin Federline have custody of the children that he has with Shar Jackson?
GRACE: Out to you, David Caplan.
CAPLAN: ... visitation rights. And he -- I should add before, when we were talking about it, he does see his two children that he has with Shar Jackson.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEDERLINE: It`s like a "Saturday Night Live" skit on myself, you know, and that`s kind of how I`m taking it. I`m here to make everybody laugh on this one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Federline turning down a $25 million divorce settlement. To Barbara Richmond, divorce mediator and attorney. What`s your advice to the two of them?
BARBARA RICHMOND, DIVORCE MEDIATOR, ATTORNEY: My advice to the two of them would be to focus on what`s in the best interests of their children. They can divorce each other, but they will be parents forever, trying to deal with their children and what is in their best interests.
GRACE: Well put, Barbara Richmond. And to you, Robbie Vorhaus, image and communications consultant, what about their images spread across the media every day? How will that affect the proceedings?
ROBBIE VORHAUS, IMAGINE AND COMMUNICATIONS CONSULTANT: Well, let`s not forget, Nancy, that, you know, Spears has sold almost 100 million albums worldwide. She still ranks as one of the top 10 best-selling female artists in American history. She`s back in rehearsal to make another album. She is an extraordinary money machine, and many people say a talent.
All she has to do is just clean up her act a little, show a little bit more maturity, dress a little bit more appropriately, show that she`s getting a little bit more mature, and she`s going to be fine. So all she has to do is open her mouth and do what she does best and sing. Kevin Federline should just shut his mouth, and you know, take the money and try to be a better parent.
GRACE: It`s amazing to me that the media is now saying his image has been repaired. Back to you, Barbara Richmond. Isn`t mediation the way for them to go to keep divorce proceedings out of the press?
RICHMOND: Well, that would certainly go a long way to keeping it out of the press, although each of them could still discuss the matter with the press, if they wished to do so. But hopefully, they would keep it out of the press.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This case is not just about controversial speech. It`s not just about repugnant speech. It is about accepting responsibility for training people to kill.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a normal 21-year-old, and lovely, and very idealistic, and very caring about injustice in the world, wanted to do something to make the world better, someone you would be proud to have as your daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Free speech? I have never heard the Constitution so twisted and contorted than free speech. A man behind bars for a gruesome murder, a serial killer, as a matter of fact, making money, blood money, off that gruesome murder. And tonight, the victim`s mother fights back, and so does the attorney general.
Jean Casarez, what`s happening?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, this is an issue we hear over and over again. This concerns convicted serial killer Jack Trawick. And what he is doing is that he is putting on the Internet, allegedly for profit, sketches and drawings of headless corpses and things that people believe that he`s diagramming out in his drawings of what he`s done to young women by murdering them.
GRACE: Take a listen to what one of the murder victims` mother has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a college student. She had just passed her 21st birthday. She was looking forward to her life. She was planning it. She was dreaming. She was a normal 21-year-old, and lovely, and very idealistic, and very caring about injustice in the world, wanted to do something to make the world better, someone you would be proud to have as your daughter.
I was stunned to think that, after everything that had happened, tragedy and losing my child, and then the long process that I had gone through, that there was one more thing that was not even on the road map, that I didn`t even -- I never would have imagined that such a thing exists.
By the way, most of the people I do talk to say they think he should not -- this should not happen. He should not have these freedoms. He`s in prison. He`s on death row. He`s being punished. And that means harsh treatment. And he should not have these freedoms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us out of the Houston jurisdiction, Andy Kahan. He is a victim`s crime representative, and he`s there in the mayor`s office. Andy, what exactly is he doing?
ANDY KAHAN, DIRECTOR, VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: Trawick has sketches and paintings that he does in his cell of mutilated bodies of women, usually in some form of S&M fashion. And he`s using it to taunting his victims. And, basically, he`s making money off of committing some of the worst crimes known to mankind. It`s the most disgusting pieces of artwork that I`ve seen since I`ve been monitoring this industry in over seven years.
GRACE: Why do you find this, Andy -- because you`ve dealt with so much. As a matter of fact, when I went to Kahan`s office, he showed me an entire collection of murderabilia that got me so distraught about killers making money off their victims, their dead victims.
I wrote a whole chapter about it in a book because of what Kahan opened my eyes to. So what makes this guy any different from all the others, Dahmer, Gacy, Manson, Columbine, Simpson, Letourneau, Gravano?
KAHAN: What makes Trawick different is the pornographic images of severely decapitated women that he has and has been sketching in his cell. And here`s something I really don`t understand, is how you can be in a prison cell, particularly on death row, and be allowed to sketch, draw, and paint these particular types of images, women in extremely deprecating fashion, and then ship them out for sale without anybody in the department of corrections batting an eye or saying, "What`s wrong here?" This has got to stop.
GRACE: Here`s what the victim`s mom says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has established a Web site where he has drawings, pictures of dismembered and murdered women. He`s tried to contact my client, giving gruesome details of what happened to her daughter. I want you to look her in the eye...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Commissioner, I was in a meeting with you right after you took office, and you assured me that Jack Trawick`s mail would be checked, that he would not do this anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to stand and argue with you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not arguing with you; I`m giving you information. You don`t remember me? I was in the room with you at a meeting.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you just look at me and say, "Yes, I remember you"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do. And we`re not screening the mail. And I`m here to support what you`re doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines, Lynn in Tennessee. Hi, Lynn.
CALLER: Hey, Nancy. Fellow Mercer Bear here. Just wanted to know, how does this guy have access to the Internet? You know, it worries me because a lot of serial killers, you know, like to be able to follow how many hits they get on a Web page or something like that. And I just wonder if that could be limited.
GRACE: How does it work, Andy?
KAHAN: Well, they do not have access to the Internet. You have river bottom-dwelling catfish dwellers out there that are in contact, and they work out a contractual basis with these inmates to ship them items. They, in turn, post them up on their Internet sites for money and profit.
And the bottom line, from a victim`s perspective, it`s absolutely the most nauseating and disgusting feeling to find out the person who murdered one of your loved ones now has items being hawked by third parties for pure profit. It`s like being gutted all over again by our criminal justice system.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Seattle lawyer Anne Bremner, New York lawyer Alex Sanchez. Anne Bremner, I`ve never seen more of a distortion of the First Amendment right to free speech in my life.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: But the thing is, is that you can say, "I don`t agree with your speech, but I applaud your right to say it." And after the Son of Sam laws, you know, Nancy, have all been essentially struck down, the laws that say you can`t profit from your crime, they`ve been found to be unconstitutional under the First Amendment.
They said books like "The Confessions of St. Augustine" or the autobiography of Malcolm X would have been outlawed under the Son of Sam laws. So now we have to come back in these kinds of cases and basically forfeit funds from these perpetrators and those that are putting things out on the Internet or have the families go after them civilly, which they`ve done here.
GRACE: And to you, Alex Sanchez, there is a replacement now for the so-called Son of Sam law, which Anne is correct, was struck down. Simon & Schuster case called notoriety for profit. Are you saying that this activity, Alex, is protected by the First Amendment?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, you know what I`m saying? That even unfortunately -- I think this is very egregious. But even death row inmates are entitled to certain constitutional rights that cannot be abridged. And you know, he`s hurting...
GRACE: But the First Amendment right to free speech, Sanchez and Bremner, is not unfettered. You cannot go into a theater and yell fire. That`s a classic example.
SANCHEZ: Right. But he`s not doing anything which is causing some immediate harm to someone...
GRACE: Oh, really?
SANCHEZ: ... other than hurting someone`s personal feelings.
GRACE: You don`t think hurting the victim`s family is immediate harm?
SANCHEZ: That`s terrible, but he`s not causing some type of national disaster by putting out these information on the Internet.
GRACE: Why does it have to be a national disaster?
SANCHEZ: Because those are items that can be restricted in advance. Something like this...
GRACE: Excuse me. Correction.
SANCHEZ: ... unfortunately cannot be restricted.
GRACE: If you look at the body of law regarding the First Amendment, Mr. Sanchez, it very rarely deals with a national disaster. You know, I don`t know where you learned that little loophole to the First Amendment, maybe nowhere, because it doesn`t exist.
SANCHEZ: Well, it does exist, and in this case...
GRACE: National disaster. OK. Name the case.
SANCHEZ: The reality is, is that not all egregious behavior can be stopped by laws and regulations. And it`s very unfortunate that, in this day and age, where we have the Internet, this information is going to end up on the Internet, and there is no force out there that can basically stop it at this point.
GRACE: So according to you, we might as well just throw our hands up, lay down on the interstate, and get run over by an 18-wheeler, there`s nothing we can do about it?
SANCHEZ: I think the family should take solace in the fact that this man is on death row, and he`s going to meet his maker soon enough.
GRACE: Soon enough? Maybe in about 27 to 30 years. That`s not soon enough for me.
SANCHEZ: He`s going to have one miserable life in the meantime.
GRACE: One thing that both attorneys and Jean Casarez correctly were talking about is Trial 101. It`s called Son of Sam laws. Named after David Berkowitz, the so-called Zodiac Killer, criminals are not allowed to profit off their crimes. Unfortunately, our U.S. Supreme Court has reversed those Son of Sam laws.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a college student. She had just passed her 21st birthday. She was looking forward to her life. She was planning it. She was dreaming. She was a normal 21-year-old, and lovely, and very idealistic, and very caring about injustice in the world, wanted to do something to make the world better, someone you would be proud to have as your daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And now her convicted killer, 59-year-old Jack Trawick, is apparently making money off of his art that he is drawing behind bars. To Jean Casarez, what were the facts of the murder?
CASAREZ: Well, the facts of Stephanie Gach`s murder were just horrendous. She was suffocated, number one, stabbed in the heart, and, secondly, she was thrown off of an embankment.
And, Nancy, I think there`s a possibility this is not protected speech, because what he`s doing, he`s drawing sketches of mutilated bodies. So if he is actually teaching someone to imminently be able to do murders of their own, that possibly is not protected speech, as you know. First Amendment is not a carte blanche right.
GRACE: And what about the fact that he actually targets Britney Spears?
CASAREZ: He did.
GRACE: How is that protected by the Constitution?
CASAREZ: He actually wrote how he would kill her, how he would torture her. So, yes, you could say also that that possibly -- there is an argument it is not protected speech.
GRACE: To psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, why? Is he taking some perverse joy behind bars by doing this and making money off it?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: You know, I think it`s just really a form of reliving the crime. I think in order to understand the psychodynamics, look at O.J. Simpson.
He triumphed over, degraded, humiliated Nicole as an abusive husband. Then he further degraded her by writing the words in a book. And then that was a form of reliving the crime, in a satisfying way, and, at the same time, a way of taunting and tormenting her family, whom he now abuses in this way.
And I think Trawick is doing the same thing. And what you add in, with Trawick, is a good dose of sexual satisfaction, because I understand this was motivated by sexual sadism, this crime. And these psychopaths, they love the limelight. I mean, look at the BTK killer, he loved to tell his stories in court, and the same is true with Trawick. This is a way for him to tell his story, as well as relive it.
GRACE: I just can`t believe that, in a country as great as ours, that we will tolerate, not only feeding and housing a convicted killer, a serial killer, but allowing them to profit off a gruesome murder, a murder on a young girl. You heard her mother speaking out.
One person is fighting back, I`m happy to say. That is Troy King, the Alabama attorney general, who is joining us tonight. Thank you for being with us, sir. Mr. King, what is your intention as to battling people like Trawick?
TROY KING, ALABAMA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Nancy, we have far from thrown up our hands in Alabama. We are using what`s left of the Son of Sam law in Alabama to fight back to use it.
I have instructed my chief investigators to assign investigators to try to follow the money, to try to follow where this so-called artwork is going, to try to determine if there`s money that is due to be collected to stop these people who are profiting off the misery of victims in this state.
It is shocking to my conscience. And it`s outraging, I suspect, everybody who`s watching tonight to realize that these sort of people are being allowed to use a system put in place to protect victims to now further harm them. We are...
GRACE: You know, Mr. King, there are ways to fight back. For instance, eBay had put various items on murderabilia on eBay for auction, and let`s just go through some of them.
Jeff Dahmer, who`s not only a killer, but a cannibal, items related to him are online. John Wayne Gacy`s so-called art. He`s the clown killer. Not only that, but actual dirt from the crawlspace in his home where he hid dead bodies was online for auction. Charles Manson, of course, makes a lot of money behind bars with his Web site. The Columbine killers, remember them, Klebold and Dylan? Their action figures, action figures like G.I. Joes patterned after these two, for sale.
Believe it or not, the crime scene photos of Sharon Tate`s pregnant body can be bought and sold. O.J. Simpson, of course, what more do I have to say? Mary Kay Letourneau, her book was sold overseas detailing her love affair, her molestation of a little boy. And Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, a notorious hit man, was making money until the Arizona attorney general stepped in and put a stop to it.
There are ways to stop it, Mr. King, and that is cutting off the money source. EBay stopped it. They brought an end to it.
KING: Absolutely, Nancy. I agree with you. I think that there are two things that are important here. One is for us to find the ability to put in place laws that allow us to be more effective in recovering this money, because, if there`s no profit in it, people aren`t going to engage in it.
And the other is what you`ve described, public pressure, public outrage against Web sites like eBay. The problem is that most of the sites that murder auctions and these other places that do these sorts of things now, do it to taunt and in the face of law-abiding citizens, and in the face of victims, and with a callous disregard of what they`re doing.
And I don`t know how successful public pressure`s going to be. So that leaves us with, one, tightening up prison regulations so that this sort of paraphernalia can`t get out of the prisons to ever become available, and, two, cutting off the money, which is what I`ve instructed my investigators to do.
GRACE: Well-put. Very well-put. With us, Troy King, the Alabama attorney general. And to George Jones. This is Mary Kay Gach`s (ph) attorney. The pain and the suffering that this has caused the family, describe.
GEORGE JONES, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF STEPHANIE GACH: Well, first of all, Nancy, let me say thank you very much for bringing this matter on the air, on the show. You are a tremendous advocate for victims` rights in this country, and we appreciate you, and my client appreciates you.
GRACE: Thank you.
JONES: Secondly, my client simply could not appear tonight. She is regretful of that, but it`s just too emotional. This lady has been through enough.
GRACE: She`s been through Hell. She has been through Hell.
JONES: We need to do whatever it takes to stop this monster from tormenting her from death row.
GRACE: How did she find out about his artwork?
JONES: Well, we filed our lawsuit, we filed a civil lawsuit...
GRACE: No, how did she find out about it? How did she discover her daughter`s killer...
JONES: 2004, we caught -- late 2003, early 2004.
GRACE: But how? How did she find out?
JONES: Some reporter -- a reporter from -- and I`m not sure what agency it was -- just picked up the phone and called her, and says, "Hey, do you know that this stuff`s on the Internet?"
GRACE: You know, with me is George Jones. This is Mary Kay Gach`s attorney. Her daughter brutally violated, murdered, thrown off the side of a bridge. To you, Andy Kahan, what can we do?
JONES: Nancy, could I...
KAHAN: First of all, let me applaud the Alabama attorney general. This is the best reception I`ve ever seen by elected officials in curbing this industry, and anything I can do to help them, we certainly will. But what I really think we need to do...
GRACE: You can go ahead, Andy.
KAHAN: Oh. We really need a federal interstate commerce act to really curb this burgeoning industry. State laws are great, but we`ve got to put a stop to inmates shipping their items from other states through other entities for sale.
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GRACE: Welcome back. Why is a convicted serial killer making money off his victims in his artwork behind bars? Out to Christine in New York. Hi, Christine.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Just wanted to ask you the question of, why is this animal not stripped of his constitutional rights, like the freedom of speech? And why is he being allowed to re-victimize the victim and her family over and over again?
GRACE: Why is that, George Jones?
JONES: It`s a travesty. First of all, let me say that there`s no question that some of what this monster has put on the Internet is protected speech. I want to address some of the political garbage that one of your guests stated about the First Amendment.
GRACE: Quickly.
JONES: And that is that it`s the settled law of this country that, where speech crosses the boundary between words and action, it is not protected by the First Amendment.
GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent point, George, because a terroristic threat on Britney Spears or anyone is not protected by the First Amendment. Out to you, Kim, in Minnesota. Hi, Kim.
CALLER: Hi. The reason why I`m calling is I want to know, why do we support these people in jail for so long? And why isn`t there a limitation on the length of time that these people get fed in jail?
GRACE: Andy?
KAHAN: Another million-dollar question. It`s been 14 years since Trawick`s been convicted. I`ve certainly been wanting to know, when has he got a death date and finally punishment is served for this? The bottom line is you just shouldn`t be able to rob, rape, and murder and then turn around and make a buck off of it.
GRACE: And that is exactly what is happening with Mr. Trawick behind bars.
Let`s stop our legal discussion to remember Marine Major Joseph T. McCloud, 39, Alexandria, Virginia, killed, Iraq. McCloud, now promoted to lieutenant colonel, leaves behind wife Maggie and three young children. He loved one thing more than the Marines: his wife and family. McCloud, American hero.
Thank you to our guests. But our biggest thank you is to you, for inviting us into your homes. NANCY GRACE signing off for tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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