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Nancy Grace

Video Captures Caretakers Abusing Patients; An Interview With Mike Jones, the Male Prostitute Allegedly Patronized by Ted Haggard

Aired February 02, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Caught on video, two handicapped patients, both unable to even speak, seen whimpering, crying while being slapped and taunted over and over. By whom? Oh, no, not some street thug, but by trusted caregivers, two men working there in the nursing home. And tonight, the thugs are busted, and the video doesn`t lie.
And tonight, a sinner versus a hypocrite. Will the male prostitute or the evangelical legend whose empire he brought down ever see the inside of a courtroom?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. TED HAGGARD: We`re so grateful that he failed the polygraph test this morning and -- my accuser did. We have gathered together this outside board of overseers, and they`re going through the process of investigation and finding out what needs to be done to me. You know, I`ve put myself on an extended -- what do we call it -- suspension. My senior pastor`s role - - I`ve resigned from the NAE (ph) because both those roles are based on trust, and right now, my trust is -- is questionable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, I don`t trust you. But what I`m concerned about is trusting the police. You put a male prostitute, methamphetamine, and a confession by an evangelical preacher, and I want to know why somebody hasn`t at least been booked.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

First tonight, to California.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are screams from a disabled man continuously slapped, police say, by his caretaker. Detective Cherie Hill linked 22-year-old Patrick Solis to the abuse. He worked at the Jossen Vocational Academy and was the primary caregiver of the man in the gray sweatshirt, who was allegedly herded into a bathroom, far from other clients and employees, and abused.

The video clearly shows the disabled man, who has the mental capacity of a 2-year-old, screaming and cowering as he is slapped. At one point, it appears that one of the employees instructs the other, saying, "Hit him a lot for me."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I can hardly stand to look at that video. The handicapped -- the mentally handicapped victims in this case -- one of them had the mind of a 2-year-old. There was no way for them to fight back or even speak about what had occurred. And that`s not the only video. This apparently happened not only in March, but throughout March and April, that we know of. And still, nobody is behind bars tonight. What more do you need?

Let`s go out to Cindy Carcamo with "The Orange County Register." Tell me what happened, Cindy.

CINDY CARCAMO, "ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER": There was a person that bought the video -- or bought the cell phone, sorry -- bought the cell phone. And about a month later, it looks like they discovered the images. And these images, you guys saw, are very disturbing. This person went to the facility and turned in the images. And then that facility got in contact with the PD, and that`s what we were told, and that`s when they started their investigation.

GRACE: To you, Jean Casarez. What can you add?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: What Cindy is saying is the video images that you`re seeing on your screen right now -- that`s from a cell phone. And so someone was actually shooting someone else, allegedly the caregivers, beating and whipping and -- and just taunting this -- this emotionally handicapped person, mentally handicapped person. And so that cell phone got in the hands of police, and police have now charged Patrick Solis with one count of false imprisonment of a disabled person and two counts of disabled dependent abuse.

GRACE: Well, it`s not just Patrick Solis. We`re hearing a lot about Patrick Solis. There is also 24-year-old Michael Rama. He is 5 feet, 11 inches, 185 pounds. These two trusted caregivers within this institute, these two mentally handicapped patients beaten, just straight out beaten. There`s no other way to put it.

To Jean Casarez. Why aren`t they behind bars tonight?

CASAREZ: Now, Michael Rama has not been charged, all right? He was the one that owned the cell phone that took the pictures, so that`s his link. And police are looking for him. They want to talk with him. Patrick Solis has been charged -- $25,000 bail. He made bail. So that`s why he`s out tonight.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detective Cherie Hill linked 22-year-old Patrick Solis to the abuse. He worked at Jossen Vocational Academy and was the primary caregiver of the man in the gray sweatshirt, who was allegedly herded into a bathroom, far from other clients and employees, and abused. The video clearly shows the disabled man, who has the mental capacity of a 2-year-old, screaming and cowering as he is slapped.

At one point, it appears that one of the employees instructs the other, saying, "Hit him a lot for me."

They are screams from a disabled man continuously slapped, police say, by his caretaker, disturbing images taken on a second caretaker`s cell phone that only came to the attention of the Anaheim detectives when the phone was sold.

Solis has been criminally charged with abusing that client, as well as another. Laughter can be heard coming from the employees as the second disabled victim is slapped on another cell phone video.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let me get this straight. Back out to Cindy Carcamo with "The Orange County Register." Again, Cindy, thank you for being with us. You know, we very rarely hear about assault and crimes on the handicapped. Why? Because very often, they can`t speak out for themselves. It`s incredible this was caught on cell phone video. This is state`s exhibit number one, people.

Now, it`s my understanding, Patrick Solis, his bond was reduced and he`s out free. Now, Michael Rama -- did the cell phone belong to him at the time the photos were taken?

CARCAMO: Police believe that it did belong to him, yes.

GRACE: OK. So he was there in this room when this went down?

CARCAMO: Well, that`s undetermined. I think that`s still being investigated, and that`s why he`s a person that they want to speak with and that`s why he`s not being called a suspect right now. He`s a person that they want to question, basically.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks. Mike, how can we attack this case?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I tell you what, Nancy, this makes me sick. You talk about -- like -- oh, I won`t get into that. But what they can do is, they got to find out exactly what this Rama character`s -- what his role is in this. You know, the other guy -- you know, I hope they lock him up because they`re going to have a good time in jail. Even criminals, Nancy, they don`t like people that abuse children, the elderly or developmentally handicapped people like this. I hope he gets in jail, and I hope he gets his slaps once he gets in there.

But right now, they got to find out exactly what this guy`s role is, you know, whether or not he did shoot this video, was he in the room at the time, did he give his phone to someone else, was there someone else who was shooting this video? And also, how many other cases of abuse are they involved with, with other clients of this facility?

GRACE: Well, one thing, I want to point out that the moment that this cell phone was purchased by a third party, they brought it to the facility. The moment the facility saw this, they didn`t try to hide it. They didn`t stick their head in the sand and their butt in the air like an ostrich. They did something about it. They went to police and reported it -- and reported this.

I want to go out to Deborah Varos, the program director there at Jossen Vocational Academy. Ma`am, thank you for being with us. I guess you were completely stunned when you saw this.

DEBORAH VAROS, PROGRAM DIR., JOSSEN VOCATIONAL ACADEMY: As you see, the video is very, very disturbing. I -- you`re right, I was shocked. I was deeply saddened for the victims and very angry, but also very, very grateful for the individual who did come forward with the videotapes.

GRACE: Tell me something. It`s my understanding that these perpetrators -- and I say perpetrators because somebody is standing by, holding a cell phone, laughing and watching this beating go down. And in my mind, they are just as guilty as the attacker. Right there, you stand by, you don`t do anything, you`re part of it.

My question is, it`s my understanding that this bathroom was far off - - far away from everyone, so others couldn`t hear or see this beating go down. Is that correct?

VAROS: Yes. And it was behind closed doors.

GRACE: Now, is it correct that the rule at your facility is when you take a patient to the bathroom, two people have to go in there, and that rule was created so there would be a minimization of any type of abuse?

VAROS: Yes. That`s correct.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Deltito -- with me, Dr. Joseph Deltito, professor of psychiatry. Dr. Deltito, it`s mind-boggling. You know, this facility can make all the rules it wants to, to minimize attacks, such as two people have to go in when you take a patient to the bathroom, so there`s no sex abuse. And (INAUDIBLE) if they don`t gang up on the patient!

DR. JOSEPH DELTITO, PROF. OF PSYCHIATRY, NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE: Yes, unfortunately, it`s not mind-boggling to me or other mental health professionals because we know there are a lot of sadistic people out there, and we know that there`s a certain percentage of sadistic people who are attracted to the type of professions where they`re caregivers of some sort -- nursing homes, in jails, and whatever. I`m not saying most people are, but there`s a higher than normal population of people who are into control, controlling other people, hurting other people. And I can say, if this person did this on this time, it`s next to nil chance that he hasn`t done something like this before to other people.

GRACE: Well, Dr. Deltito, another issue, as we`re seeing this video, there were two videos on the cell phone. Some idiot -- and that`s not certainly a technical legal term -- actually videoed two rounds of beating and taunting a mentally handicapped patient, one with the mind of, I believe, a 2-year-old, one with the mind of a toddler. It`s sick!

DELTITO: Yes, someone is delighting in this. Someone is delighting in the fact -- who knows, they may have shown this to friends at a party to show how cool they were for what they do at work, or something like that. I think as they investigate this, they`re going to find out that more people knew about this than you would think, and that they lived in a culture where they thought they could probably video this and show this and they didn`t think this would be evidence against them, which it luckily has become.

GRACE: Jean?

CASAREZ: There`s something else real important here. Police are saying that you can hear claps on the video.

GRACE: Oh, my God.

CASAREZ: OK, if I`m taking a picture with...

GRACE: You can`t clap!

CASAREZ: ... a cell phone, you can`t clap. That`s right.

GRACE: That means there was somebody else in there.

CASAREZ: I think there`s...

GRACE: Another spectator!

CASAREZ: ... a big possibility, yes.

GRACE: To Deborah Varos, the program director there at Jossen Vocational Academy, who immediately took this footage to the police -- have you thought of that? There`s somebody clapping and jeering in the background. The cell phone operator couldn`t be clapping. Do you think, Deborah, that there is a third person?

VAROS: It`s possible. But our policy was that two individuals, two staff members had to accompany anybody in the restroom. Currently, we`ve changed our policy since then, and now a supervisor has to be present any time they`re behind closed doors during toileting. I think -- my thought is that they were clapping in order to cover up the sound of the slaps.

GRACE: But who`s clapping? It`s not the person beating the patient. It`s not the person holding the cell phone. What I`m saying is, apparently, this had turned into some kind of a spectator sport, far off in the hidden corridors of the caregiving facility. It`s awful!

I want to go out to a special guest joining me tonight. His name is Lawrence Carter Long. And I don`t know if you can recognize him, but the moment I saw him, I knew him immediately. He was the poster child for United Way for cerebral palsy. And he is the voice tonight -- that`s the young man that I first became familiar with. Now he is a grown man, and he`s speaking out for the disabled.

Lawrence, thank you again for being with us. It`s painful for me -- and I`ve seen a lot of felony cases. A lot. I`ve seen autopsies. I`ve seen crime scene photos. I`ve been in the morgue. But looking at this and seeing it happen and seeing the mentally handicapped patients being treated that way is very, very hurtful and painful to even watch.

LAWRENCE CARTER LONG, FMR. UNITED WAY POSTER CHILD, HAS CEREBRAL PALSY: Well, the thing that I want to bring up, Nancy -- and thank you for having us on again. It`s good to have the disability advocates have a chance to give our say on one of these programs -- is that what you`re uncovering here is a code of silence among individuals who work in these institutions. They often don`t report on one another because they don`t want to be getting in trouble the next time. So you`ve uncovered an epidemic that is probably far more widespread than anybody imagines.

We live in a society where a young developmentally disabled woman can be raped by a football team in New Jersey, and the community can rally around the football team, rather than the child. We live in a society where somebody can get more time for stealing a car radio than they can for abusing a developmentally disabled person.

So what we really need to get to is, how are we going to address the client-centered needs, the consumer-centered needs, rather than the needs of the facility, how it`s going to be easier for the facility, how it`s going to be easier for the workers, to getting to address the needs of the people that are in those places and to see abuses like this don`t happen?

GRACE: You know, I can hardly stand to look at the video. But I want you to see how these mentally handicapped people have been treated. And I also want to point out again that this vocational academy took this video immediately to the police. They didn`t try to hide. They didn`t try to cover up, like so many people would have.

Out to the lines. Anna in Idaho. Hi, Anna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: Well, I`m good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well...

GRACE: You know, not really. I`m not good. Looking at this is very distressing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it is, and it just made me want to weep. But the gentleman that was on coined it correctly. This is an atrocity that`s going on all over this country. It`s -- and it`s not -- it`s the elderly. I mean, it`s the dehumanization of them in these homes. It`s OK for them to have sores. We see somebody abusing an animal, they get nailed, and yet it`s OK to do this to people that cannot speak for themselves.

GRACE: Out to Cherie Hill. She is a detective with the Anaheim Police Department. Miss Hill, thank you for being with us -- Detective Hill. What is the police department doing to try to apprehend these two? In my mind, you`re looking at three suspects -- the person that did the beating, that took the video, and stood by and clapped.

DET. CHERIE HILL, ANAHEIM POLICE DEPARTMENT: Currently, as you heard, that Patrick Solis was arraigned and he did bail out this past Monday on the $25,000 bail. Currently, we`ve -- through the help of the media, we have received word from a subject identifying himself as Michael Rama, who is currently willing to speak to us as a witness in this case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detective Hill is looking for the phone`s former owner, Michael Rama, who is also a caretaker. She says he`s involved. Patrick Solis is free on bail. And something else that`s extremely troubling. Police say it`s quite possible that Solis and Rama have new jobs working as caretakers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detective Hill is looking for the phone`s former owner, Michael Rama, who is also a caretaker. She says he`s involved. Patrick Solis is free on bail. And something else that`s extremely troubling. Police say it`s quite possible that Solis and Rama have new jobs working as caretakers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I can`t believe that they could actually be in another nursing home or caregiving facility after that video, caught on a phone video beating a mentally handicapped patient, not one but two of them with the mind of toddlers.

But this isn`t the first case of abuse caught on video. Here`s another caregiver. There you go. Baby is the football! And that`s not all. Keep watching. Keep watching. Believe it or not, even with video like this, sometimes these cases are not prosecuted.

Let`s go out to the lawyers. Lauren Lake, first to you. What do you make -- oh, we`ve got Michael Cardoza. Glad you made it, Michael. To you, Lauren Lake. What`s your defense?

LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, Nancy, you know I love to go a few rounds with me, but today you`re not going to get much out of me by way of a defense. My father spent his life working with developmentally disabled children, and I am disgusted by that tape.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, I`m not hiring you then. I agree with you, but you`re not getting my tip.

LAKE: Let me say something -- trust me, I don`t...

GRACE: Guess I`ll have to hire Cardoza.

(CROSSTALK)

LAKE: Trust me, I don`t even want that money. But let me tell you this. There`s nothing these people are going be able to say. Short of having that videotape, they may have a shot at a defense. But because that is on tape and you see the positioning of that developmentally disabled person and you also the positioning of the person that`s abusing him, that`s problematic all the way around. It`s going to be an uphill battle for the defense.

GRACE: Man, you`re not no kidding. The only way around it, Michael, that I can see -- I don`t want to give you any ideas, not that you need any -- is to somehow get the video thrown out. Then you don`t have a case because these witnesses cannot testify.

MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`re right. I mean, if you could get the video thrown out, what evidence do they then have? Probably nothing.

But let`s keep in mind -- I mean, to hear that, you know, Oh, I wouldn`t take the case. -- I can understand the emotion of that and why some defense attorneys would say that. But remember the role of a defense attorney. It`s not necessarily to walk people out of the courtroom. We`re there to ensure that the prosecution does it under the law, does it properly, that the people that are accused are given, you know, a fair trial here. So that`s our job as a lawyer, make sure everything`s done right. Classic example is Nifong in the Duke case, who was overzealous.

GRACE: I don`t know how you worked that into this case, but I appreciate -- "A" for effort. "A" for effort, Cardoza.

CARDOZA: Thanks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Solis has been criminally charged with abusing that client, as well as another. Laughter can be heard coming from the employees as the second disabled victim is slapped on another cell phone video.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What idiot, A, would do this, and put it on a cell phone? And these two guys, the suspects, are very likely working in the health care industry still, even after this. The victims, the minds of toddlers.

Out to Lisa in Texas. Hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m the mother of a special needs little boy that cannot speak at all, and this is exactly why I don`t let him out of my sight. My question is -- I`d like to know the timeline between how long these poor handicapped patients were subjected to these so-called caregivers, between the time that this actually happened and the time the video surfaced.

GRACE: Well, Lisa, you`re not going to like the answer. Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: You know, Lisa, it`s interesting. March and April of last year they believe the video was taken. That`s a month apart from each other. Well, then that cell phone was sold. So Mr. Rama, who they are looking for now, he sold his cell phone, but he didn`t delete the video. So the new owner of the cell phone, who is also an employee at the vocational center, saw the two video clips in September of 2006, gave it to authorities, who then gave it to the police.

GRACE: Back to you, Detective Hill. Why won`t Michael Rama come forward and speak to you?

HILL: Again, we -- what I want to say is, I did attempt to locate him. Unfortunately, he had family members that would not tell me where he was until I had the assistance of the media.

GRACE: Well, you know what? We`re going to help. Let`s show that photo again, Liz. We want Michael Rama to speak to police.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have sinned against you, my lord.

FORMER GOV. JIM MCGREEVEY (D), NEW YORK: Shamefully, I engaged in an adult consensual affair with another man.

PASTOR TED HAGGARD, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF EVANGELICALS: I called him to buy some meth. My senior pastors role -- I resigned from the NAE because both of those roles are based on trust. And right now, my trust is questionable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Forget the trust. The last time I consulted a criminal code, buying methamphetamine was still a felony. So why is this evangelical leader still not behind bars? Jean Casarez, explain.

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, the Colorado Springs Police Department is saying that they have not and are currently not going to launch an investigation. But what Mark Jones (sic) says is that he had a three-year sexual relationship with the pastor, for money, $200 cash per session, at least one session per month.

GRACE: Why are you calling it a ""session? You make it sound like he`s a doctor.

CASAREZ: The sexual encounter. The sexual encounter that they had...

GRACE: Sex. Sex. It`s not an encounter. That sounds like you`re at 4-H camp around the campfire.

CASAREZ: All right, they had sex. They had sex for money, according to Mark Jones, $200 cash per session. I`m saying it again, but it is per session. That`s a sexual session anyway. He also said that they would do drugs, methamphetamine sometimes, when they were having sex, and that he would help Ted Haggard buy the methamphetamine.

GRACE: Well, it`s amazing to me that no arrest has gone down. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, hi, Mike, this is Art. Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more, either $100 or $200 supply, and I could pick it up really anytime. I could get it tomorrow or we could wait until next week sometime.

And so I also wanted to get your address so I could send you some money for inventory, but that`s obviously not working. And so if you have it, then go ahead and get what you can, and I may buzz up there, oh, I don`t know, maybe even later today. But I doubt that your schedule would allow that, unless you have some in the house. OK, so I`ll check back in with you later. Thanks a lot. Bye.

Hi, Mike. This is Art. Hey, I am here in Denver, and I`m sorry that I missed you. But as I said, if you want to go ahead and get some stuff, then that would be great. And then I`ll get it sometime next week or the week after or whatever. I will call you, though, early next week to see what`s more convenient for you. OK, thanks a lot. Bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What is a Christian evangelical leader of an empire calling a male prostitute about methamphetamine? Now, we cannot confirm the voicemail is from Reverend Ted Haggard. Haggard`s attorney says his client never heard the message. However, Haggard publicly admits buying methamphetamine. He says he never used it, but he bought it and threw it away. OK, I don`t believe that.

Joining us tonight is the man at the center of the controversy, the former male escort, Mike Jones. Mr. Jones, you`re very brave to come on air and admit to sex sessions with an evangelical leader, because you know that is a crime.

MIKE JONES, FORMER MALE PROSTITUTE: I realize that.

GRACE: Not the evangelical leader part, the sex session part. What prompted you to speak out?

JONES: Well, I just could no longer take the hypocrisy. I mean, he`s down there being married and having the enjoyment of marriage with his wife, and at the same time -- and prohibiting gay marriage, and he`s at the same time having a gay affair.

GRACE: Well, Mike, tough question for you. A lot of your former clients -- I understand that you`re reformed. You`re no longer a male escort.

JONES: That`s correct.

GRACE: But a lot of your former clients, Johns as they are typically called, were married with families. Why speak out against Haggard? Was it to bring down his Christian empire?

JONES: Well, I haven`t heard any of these other men speaking out against homosexuality and cutting down homosexuals.

GRACE: OK, you know what? You`re right. You`re absolutely correct. How did you figure out that Art was actually Ted Haggard?

JONES: It happened about two-and-a-half years into our relationship, when I happened to be watching the History Channel. And a show came on, "The Anti-Christ," and, lo and behold, there he was as an expert. And so I saw his name.

GRACE: You`re seeing video of Reverend Ted Haggard, the former pastor of a 14,000-member church, New Life Church, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the former president of the National Association of Evangelicals. He claims there was never any sex, that he met Jones once for a massage.

Question, Mike Jones, are you a masseuse?

JONES: I did do massage. However, that is not why he contacted me.

GRACE: How did you guys hook up to start with?

JONES: He had called me.

GRACE: I mean, how did he know to call you?

JONES: Well, because he saw my ad on a gay Web site.

GRACE: Your ad?

JONES: Yes.

GRACE: What ad?

JONES: Well, it was an ad for escorting.

GRACE: To you, Mike Brooks, you open up the back of any magazine, go online, there are a million hooker sites. No offense, Mr. Brooks. No offense to you, Mr. Jones. But there are a million hooker sites. Why?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Well, Nancy, the bottom line is the bottom line. I mean, what are prostitutes out there to do? They`re out there to make money. That`s the bottom line.

GRACE: Well, so are dope dealers. So why aren`t they being arrested?

BROOKS: It`s (INAUDIBLE) well, they do go after some of these sites. There`s just not enough cops, not enough morals divisions in all these cities, because -- and it`s tough to make a prostitution case, Nancy.

When I was a young officer, I was assigned to the D.C. Police Department morals division right out of the academy, to the prostitution and perversion squad, as it was called at the time. And they would take young officers and put them out there to entice prostitutes or to arrest the prostitutes.

And to make a prostitution case, Nancy, you have to have a place, a price, and an act before you can actually make the arrest. What we would do is, we would go out there, in a car, and they`d say, "Hey, young guy, what are you doing? Are you looking for some action?" And then the conversation would go on. And then, if they had a place, a price, and an act, they sweep in and make the arrest.

GRACE: I want to go out to Pastor John Macarthur, a special guest joining us tonight. He is the pastor of Grace Community Church.

Sir, thank you for being with us. You know, we see over and over and over Christian evangelical leaders go down in flames. You`ve got Bakker. You`ve got Swaggart. The list goes on and on. Why?

JOHN MACARTHUR, PASTOR, GRACE COMMUNITY CHURCH: Well, first of all, the over and over concerns me a little bit. I think 98 percent of the men that are out there pastoring in churches are serving the Lord with integrity and honesty and living good, wholesome, moral, righteous lives and trying to honor Christ. Those that fall from the heights of these high-profile ministries obviously garner the media.

You know, I could give you a theological reason, Nancy. I think the enemy of our souls, Satan, assaults the church, and assaults the truth, and counterfeits it, and places people in ministry who have no business being there.

I think very often, when guys get to the top of an empire, they begin to believe there`s a certain level of invincibility, and corruption creeps in and goes from there. But I really think it`s an inability or an unwillingness to deal honestly and spiritually with your life before God. I think it`s just a huge case of hypocrisy. You have people in ministry who have no business being there.

GRACE: Well, Preacher, let me just tell you, I`d much rather have a sinner over a hypocrite. Now, me, I know I`m a sinner. There`s really not a whole lot of hope left for me. But better a sinner than a hypocrite.

And I truly believe -- and I`ll go quickly to Pastor Rob Brindle, associate pastor now at New Life Church -- how badly did it hurt the church? How difficult was it to regain trust within New Life Church after this fiasco?

PASTOR ROB BRINDLE, ASSOC. PASTOR, NEW LIFE CHURCH: Hi, Nancy. No doubt about it. It was a difficult time and still is for our church. People are struggling to regain trust, because we recognize that, you know, church is an institution of public trust. But at the same time, it`s caused us to reaffirm the idea that our church is built on.

GRACE: Pastor, we`ll be right back with you. I`ve got to rush to break.

But I just want to point out that what Mike Brooks said was correct. It`s Trial 101. There`s got to be corroboration to make an arrest in this case. And believe you me, there is plenty. But still no arrest of the evangelical leader who ran a 14,000-congregant church.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you don`t know Mike Jones?

HAGGARD: No, I don`t know Mike Jones.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t know why he would be bringing up these allegations against you?

HAGGARD: No, I don`t.

I`ve never said that I`m perfect. But I haven`t had sex with a man in Denver, and I`ve been faithful to my wife.

You know, all the surveys say that evangelicals have the best sex life of any other group.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, come on.

ALEXANDRA PELOSI, FILMMAKER: No way.

HAGGARD: Oh, yes. But let`s just find out. How often do you have sex with your wife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every day.

HAGGARD: Everybody. Twice a day sometimes? OK, how about you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every day.

HAGGARD: Every day? Let`s say, out of 100 times when you have sex, what percentage does she climax?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every one.

HAGGARD: Every one?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone, OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys (INAUDIBLE) these are a bunch of studs. Look at them. There`s a lot of love in this place.

HAGGARD: There`s a lot of love in this place. You don`t think these babies just come out of nowhere, do you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I don`t even know what to say to that. And you wonder why Christians get a bad name.

That was former evangelical leader Ted Haggard, who once ran New Life Church, a highly successful evangelical church. Tonight with us, the former male escort who busted that reputation wide open, and apparently with good reason. With us, Mike Jones.

Mr. Jones, that was part of a documentary on HBO. When you hear that kind of talk from, as you allege, your former client, what do you think?

JONES: I definitely think he`s addicted to sex; there`s no doubt about it. That seems to be on his mind a lot.

GRACE: I want to go out to our two pastors tonight, Pastor Rob Brindle, the associate pastor who took over leadership there at New Life Church, and also highly acclaimed John Macarthur, pastor of Grace Community Church.

Reverend Macarthur, are you convinced in your heart that homosexuality is a sin?

MACARTHUR: Absolutely, it`s a sin. And it`s not a matter of some conviction in my heart; it`s a matter of what the scripture says. It`s absolutely crystal clear in scripture that it is a sin, and there`s no question about it.

And the response that I have to the situation with Ted Haggard, while there`s certainly compassion and sympathy, is just plain outrage. And before all the talk about restoration, and he`s our friend and we love him...

GRACE: OK, what`s restoration? What is restoration?

MACARTHUR: Well, first of all, there is no restoration to pastoral ministry or public ministry of any kind. He has breached the biblical standard. No man can be a preacher or a pastor who is not above reproach, who is not a one-woman man. That is explicit in the New Testament.

The Bible says, the one who lives a blameless life will minister to me. Paul said, "I buffet my body into submission so that, in preaching to others, I do not become disqualified."

GRACE: Well, I have a question. And I am not a biblical scholar, although I`ve tried to read the whole thing. To you, Pastor Rob Brindle, why do we hear so many attacks and pointing out how wrong homosexuality is, when every time it is mentioned, I`ve noticed that also cheating, adultery, many other crimes are mentioned, as well? And you don`t see an expose on adultery, or cheating, or lying like you do on homosexuality.

BRINDLE: Well, Nancy, first, you have to understand that the Bible makes clear that sexual immorality is a sin, unquestionably, and also that God doesn`t grade sin on a curve. He looks at sin and recognizes...

GRACE: Well, wasn`t Mary Magdalene...

BRINDLE: ... let me finish -- that it categorically separates people from God. The difference is, homosexuality is a politically charged issue, where somebody stealing from the 7-Eleven down the road isn`t as interesting to differing political factions.

GRACE: Well-put.

MACARTHUR: But, Nancy...

GRACE: Let me get one thing straight. And maybe I`m wrong. You`re certainly the scholars. Wasn`t Mary Magdalene a prostitute, yet she basically served as the 13th disciple?

MACARTHUR: Well, let me correct that real fast. No, she was not a prostitute. There`s nothing in the scripture to indicate that at all, whatsoever. And she certainly was not the 13th apostle, or apostlette, I guess you`d have to say.

No, the apostle who was added when Judas defected was a man named Matthias, took his place, later on the apostle Paul. And that alone constitutes the apostolate. And she is not a prostitute. That is a legend that grew up through history but has no foundation in scripture.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Cheryl in Virginia, hi, Cheryl.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

CALLER: My question is, where is the pastor`s wife? And what does she have to say about this situation?

GRACE: Good question. Out to Pastor Rob Brindle, I understand that Haggard`s wife was also an employee of the church. What`s become of that, Pastor?

BRINDLE: Yes, she was. She`s resigned as the director of our women`s ministry. She`s chosen to stand with her husband, and the two of them are undergoing a process that is aimed at restoring Ted to spiritual health.

GRACE: As part of restoration -- I really know nothing about it -- as part of restoration, do you attempt to "cure" homosexuality?

BRINDLE: Well, the focus of the restoration period, as I understand it, from our board of overseers, is not exclusively the homosexuality, but addressing the issues that perhaps are at the core of that and restoring Ted to moral, and emotional, and spiritual health.

GRACE: Out to you, Mike Jones, response?

JONES: You know one thing I want to say, when -- like to the pastor of the Grace chapel is, you know, I was escorting for 20 years. And I will tell you, 15 percent of my clientele were from the clergy. So, you know, if they think it`s just a few, it`s more than they think.

GRACE: Out to -- and I want to clear one other thing up that I heard in a recording. There`s never any allegation that Mike Jones had ever used methamphetamine. Simply, it`s my understanding -- and correct me if I`m wrong, Mike -- that you had hooked -- you allegedly had hooked Haggard up with a dealer.

I want to go out to Lauren Lake and Michael Cardoza. Very quickly to Michael. Will a voice I.D. hold up in court? Can that be used as evidence?

MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure, voice I.D. could. But in a case like this, Nancy, you remember from your D.A. days, you need a corpus delicti. Example, I say I robbed a bank. You can`t use that in court to prove I robbed a bank until you prove a bank was robbed. In this case, you`ve got to prove that they used drugs.

GRACE: And to you, Lauren Lake, it`s my understanding that purchasing meth in itself is a crime. Why no charges?

LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, hey, Nancy, that`s the question of the year. Right now I`m wondering, this is a very powerful man that has influence over lots of people. I`m wondering why there`s no charges. But he`s lucky right now he doesn`t have a legal problem yet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man is tormenting -- this murderer is tormenting my client from death row, and he`s making money off of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even death row inmates are entitled to certain constitutional rights that cannot be abridged.

GRACE: I don`t know where you learned that little loophole to the First Amendment. Maybe nowhere, because it doesn`t exist.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The arresting officer called me. And she said, "Oh, I need to let you know what`s going on. Your daughter was raped at 2:00 this afternoon, but I`ve arrested her now and I have to take her down to county jail."

GRACE: A rape victim there in the Tampa area thrown behind bars. And I want to clarify why.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They pulled her name up in their computer system as having an open warrant from a juvenile case. And they took her to jail.

GRACE: She paid the restitution as a juvenile. This was over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She shouldn`t have been thrown in jail.

GRACE: It`s ridiculous.

Breaking news out of the state of Washington. A baby boy, about 24 to 48 hours old, found on the front steps of a church.

Well, I am a little concerned about one thing. Back to you, Tim Hake (ph). What was the temperature at the time the baby was left on the doorstep?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Near freezing.

GRACE: Oh, good God in heaven.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And probably above freezing, I would say, by 9:30 in the morning.

GRACE: OK, everything I just said about having mercy on the mom, forget it. All right, you leave your baby out wrapped in nothing but a blanket?

Lowdown? It`s a showdown in court. Divorce courts have never seen anything like it. With an ironclad pre-nup locked in, believe it or not, Kevin Federline turns down a $25 million divorce offer tendered by superstar Britney Spears. I am K-Fed up. Federline, get a job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s stop for a moment to remember Lester Baroncini, 33, Bakersfield, California, killed, Iraq. Baroncini worked on the family ranch from the time he was big enough to rope, ride and drive a tractor. Loved horses, and his dog, Boo. He leaves behind a loving family. Lester Baroncini, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but our biggest thank you is to you, for inviting us into your homes. A special good night from the New York control room. Night, Liz. Night, Brett.

NANCY GRACE signing off for tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END