Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Astronaut Charged With Attempted Murder
Aired February 06, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: We have a problem, Houston! Kids all over America want to be astronauts. Well, not now. NASA`s elite star traveler behind bars on attempted murder today. Police say the lady astronaut, just back from a space mission, drove 900 miles with a disguise, pepper spray and a gun to take on a love rival. Motive? It`s a love triangle. And it`s a bumpy landing for this NASA astronaut in jail.
And tonight: He used a 100,000-volt stun gun at least 10 times on his own 18-month son as punishment. Tasers make grown men lie on the floor and cry. This is an 18-month-old baby. Please, tell me this guy did not bond out and head straight back home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It delivers a 100,000-volt charge. (INAUDIBLE) runs off a 9-volt battery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the stun gun that Albany police say a father used on his own young son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re talking about an 18-month-old child, so it just has to be excruciating. This would cause extreme pain to you or I.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-three-year-old Rian James Wittman is the man police say used the electrical shock on his son. He was arraigned today on three counts of second-degree assault and criminal mistreatment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First, to Florida. A NASA astronaut makes a bumpy landing in jail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lisa Nowak, astronaut in training, Lisa Nowak, suspect, facing some serious charges. Police in Orlando say it`s all about a high-flying love triangle. They say Nowak, a Navy captain who flew for the first time on the shuttle Discovery in July, drove 900 miles from Houston to Orlando to confront Colleen Shipman at the airport. Authorities say both women were romantically linked to astronaut Bill Oefelein. Police say Nowak, married with three children, wore a trenchcoat and wig and waited for Shipman in the parking lot at the airport when she arrived on a flight from Houston.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant had in her possession a black bag which possessed the steel mallet, the buck knife that measured four inches in length, and the BB gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We found a disguise of a wig, a trenchcoat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it was kind of weird that she drove all the way from Texas to Florida non-stop, you know, wearing diapers. That`s kind of outrageous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant`s plan was to get into the victim`s car with the victim, and I think that that adds a great deal of credibility to this charge of attempted murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we have appears a desperate woman who wants to have a conversation with the other woman. But she doesn`t shoot her. She doesn`t stab her. She doesn`t do anything. And there`s no evidence that she intended to do anything other than have a talk.
What she did was spray her with pepper spray, and no more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This charging affidavit that`s before the court for the attempted first-degree murder with a deadly weapon, which is a life felony, which is punishable by life-- she had a mission that she was very determined to carry out, and that mission was not for the good of this victim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A NASA astronaut in court today. Let`s go out to Bob Hazen with WDBO radio. You were there, as well. What happened?
BOB HAZEN, AM580 WDBO: Well, the first thing that happened was there was an initial court appearance this morning in Orange County courthouse. In that court hearing, she was, as we know, originally supposed to be on no bond. Her attorneys argue that she was not a flight risk, that she-- they had no idea what she actually intended to do with these weapons that she had in the car and in her possession, and that she should be let go on what turned to be $15,000 bond. The judge agreed and decided to let her go.
Now, as soon as that ruling came down, as we were all waiting outside the jail for Ms. Nowak to bond out, the Orlando Police Department then files another charge, this charge being one for attempted murder, taking this whole thing to another level. And with that charge, she had to go through the process again with another hearing to determine whether she could go out on bond. And after that hearing, again let out on bond, this time for $10,000 more, making her total bond $25,000. And now she is out of the Orange County jail.
GRACE: You know, I`m really surprised in the state of Florida you can even bond out on an attempted murder charge. Jean, what`s the background? Now, what did she have in the duffel bag?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, I think reason the prosecution is saying this is a first-degree attempted murder case is because she allegedly was carrying a black duffel bag at the time that she sprayed the pepper spray into the car of the alleged victim. In that duffel bag, we understand, was a brand-new steel mallet, a brand-new four-inch buck knife and a loaded BB gun with the safety off.
GRACE: OK. A brand-new mallet and a four-inch-long buck knife? You can`t really go anywhere these days without a buck knife and a brand-new mallet. Must have. Jean, why?
CASAREZ: Well, she says that she wanted to scare her. That`s what`s in the charging affidavit, that she just wanted to scare her, the alleged victim, a little bit. Defense attorneys in court today said she wanted to talk to the alleged victim.
GRACE: Talk with a buck knife, a mallet and some mace. Out to the Lines. Tricia in South Carolina. Hi, Tricia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My question is, Did she-- the victim know her? And did she recognize her with the wig on and everything?
GRACE: Well, actually, believe it or not, according to our documents, the alleged victim had complained that the NASA astronaut, a lady astronaut, had been stalking her for weeks. Explain, Jean.
CASAREZ: Well, in her application for a restraining order-- and she does have an application now for that, the hearing will be later on in February -- she said that this was an acquaintance of her, the alleged victim`s, boyfriend. So yes, all three of them knew each other. She said she had been stalked for about three weeks by this woman.
GRACE: Out to Bob Hazen with WBDO radio, in court today, where a NASA astronaut faces charges of alleged-- attempted murder. Bob, it`s all about a love triangle, according to the prosecution. Explain.
HAZEN: Well, the main people here involved are Mr. Oefelein, like you said, Ms. Nowak and also Ms. Shipman. Now, Ms. Nowak and Mr. Oefelein obviously know each other because they are both astronauts, and the astronaut community is very close-knit. Somewhere in this period of time where they knew each other, according to what she told OPD, they had a working-- or something that was more than a working relationship but less than a romantic relationship. We don`t know exactly what that means. We do--
GRACE: OK, wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait!~ More than a work relationship, less than a love relationship. To psychotherapist Leslie Austin. Explain.
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: --like a sexual affair to me. He probably--
GRACE: I`m sorry. I can`t hear you at the beginning. Did you say is or is not a sex affair?
AUSTIN: Sounds like a sexual affair to me. And it sounds like she`s making more of it than he was. She made it into something maybe it wasn`t.
GRACE: But wait a minute. Could she have made the whole thing up in her head?
AUSTIN: Not likely. She probably had some kind of a relationship with him. We don`t know what yet. There`s got to be something for her to be going on-- this is a real degree of obsession for a woman who`s very accomplished and driven. Unfortunately, she`s driving in a bad direction now.
GRACE: Quickly, out to Dr. Jennifer Shu. Doctor, I was reading the affidavit here for the temporary-- it`s the charging affidavit. And it states that the victim suffered burns on the face, the head, the hands, the forearm, the nose, the cheeks. What does pepper spray actually do to you?
DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN: Well, pepper spray, basically, is something that makes you swell up. So if it comes into contact with your skin, especially the mucous membranes, such as your eyes, your mouth and throat, it makes your eyes swell up and close, and it gives you basically coughing fits. And it sounds like if it was close enough to the skin, it might have affected the skin, too, and caused some swelling or superficial burns of the skin there.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Kathy in Florida. Hi, Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Great show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question, I think, hon, is that-- you almost already answered it. She`s released on bond on attempted murder. But still, the young girl that was raped here, remember after the Gasparilla parade--
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: --wasn`t able to bond out. And remember, the media got her out.
GRACE: You know what? I just wrote about that in a blog, how the alleged rape victim there in Florida-- there was one in Tampa, one in St. Pete -- was thrown behind bars for days after an alleged rape, where this NASA astronaut bonded right out.
And as a matter of fact, I want you to hear what her lawyer said in court. He`s, like, Mace, buck knife, mallet? So? Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They make a big deal out of this mallet, this BB gun. By the way, they don`t mention that this BB gun didn`t have a C02 cartridge, and therefore wasn`t operable.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m constrained to the report here. I`m constrained to the report.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. (INAUDIBLE) says in the report. But what is important about these things is, these things were in the duffel bag. And they didn`t leave the duffel bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was apparently an incident between the victim and the astronaut where spray, pepper spray apparently, was dispensed inside the victim`s vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a really, really sad, sad case, that, you know, somebody of that stature, that success in her professional career, ends up finding herself on the other side of the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Correction to the defense attorney, Mr. Donald Lykkebak. I know you`re giving your all for your client, but according to reports out of the courtroom, there was, in fact, an unused gun cartridge back in the car for the alleged use by the astronaut.
Jean, a lot of people are not getting a clear picture of what went down in the parking lot. It actually started back at baggage claim, didn`t it?
CASAREZ: Yes, it did, because the defendant in this case had gotten the flight records of the alleged victim. She knew what flight she was coming in on in Orlando, when she was landing. She met her somewhere between baggage claim and--
GRACE: Wait. Who met who? Who met who?
CASAREZ: The defendant allegedly met, incognito, the alleged victim somewhere between baggage claim and the shuttle that would take the alleged victim to her car. Now, remember, the defendant now has a wig on, a trenchcoat on, dark glasses on. You can`t really recognize her even if you knew her.
So she followed the alleged victim to her car. When the alleged victim got in her car, the defendant started knocking on the door -- the alleged victim didn`t respond-- then started yelling, talking to her. Finally, the alleged victim rolled the window down. That`s when the pepper spray -- boom! -- came into the car. Prosecutors say the reason this wasn`t murder is that the alleged victim then drummed (ph) up the engine and drove off.
GRACE: Let`s go back out to the lines. Carolyn in Pennsylvania. Hi, Carolyn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to tell you that you`re a great person and I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And also, I just wanted to know, does the husband and the children know of this affair that was going on?
GRACE: OK. First of all, I`ve got some news for you. Apparently, the family has released a statement that the defendant and her husband had a separation several weeks ago. As to what the children or the husband know at this juncture, if they`ve turned on the television today, it was wall-to-wall. I`m sure there were questions, Daddy, why is Mommy on TV in an orange jumpsuit?
Out to Greg Behrendt. He is the author of "He`s Just Not Into You: The No Excuses Truth to Understanding Guys.`` Greg, is it possible that this astronaut, who has passed all of these physical, mental and emotional tests, failed miserably in the test of love, that she dreamed this whole thing up in her head?
GREG BEHRENDT, CO-AUTHOR, ``HE`S JUST NOT INTO YOU``: Yes, I think she actually did. I think that there was definitely something. He must have given her a little something, whether it was, like, some tasty e- mails, a look every now and again. But he definitely let her know that he was open to some kind of relationship in some way. Whether it turned into anything even sexual, who knows?
But I have to say this. If you`re headed to find your boyfriend`s girlfriend and you`re wearing a diaper, he`s just not that into you.
GRACE: OK. Speaking of the diaper, Jean, be my guest.
CASAREZ: We haven`t gotten to this yet, the diaper and the defendant. Lisa Nowak admits that-- she says that she drove the 900 miles wearing diapers because she didn`t want to take the time to stop at the rest area to go to the bathroom. And police found two soiled diapers in the car.
GRACE: According to AP reports, still in response to Carolyn in Pennsylvania, the family states that Lisa and her husband have been married for 19 years, although she and her husband had separated a few weeks ago.
Back out to you, Bob Hazen, with WDBO radio. This woman must have passed all sorts of rigorous tests to become an astronaut. I was looking at some stats today. It said 3,500 people apply, 20 or less make it.
HAZEN: That`s true. There`s very rigorous training to get in there, psychiatric and physical, as well. And you know, just the ability to be able to put yourself on a rocket and go into space shows that you have a lot of daring, a lot of nerve. But it also does speak to this piece of her personality that she is very daring, that she also is very determined. And if something like this, for whatever reason, sparked her, she would have a very easy time of putting out a plan and then carrying it out.
GRACE: Out to you, Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, former fed with the FBI. What are the requirements to become an astronaut?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I tell you what, Nancy. They are just some unbelievable rigorous requirements. I mean, you have to pass a battery of psychological tests. Apparently, she got through those. I mean, she was a Naval Academy graduate. She was-- had gotten all kinds of different military awards. It`s one of the toughest jobs you can ever have in the entire world.
And Nancy, she put together this plan. Here`s a well educated woman who put together a plan and she carried out this plan. And keep in mind, also, Nancy, she went to a hotel, registered in a hotel that was miles from the airport. She paid cash, used a false name and address, you know, urinating in the diapers, and possession of these deadly weapons. She had a plan, and she was there to carry out that plan. And that was something of the reason that they had the probably cause to go ahead and charge her with attempted murder because of all of the facts of circumstances and the fact that she used a false name and address and paid cash for the hotel.
GRACE: You know, Jean, let`s take a look at the facts in evidence that we heard in court today. And again, today was what is called a first appearance. The big issue was not proving the case, but bond. Will there be bond? And bond was, in fact, set. In fact, just a few moments ago-- and Elizabeth, I think we have the video for the viewers-- we observed this woman, an astronaut, one of the elite, getting fitted for her GPS anklet. That`s got to be a letdown.
But Jean, the maps-- the maps that she used-- weren`t they run off from Mapquest back in January?
CASAREZ: That`s right, January 23. That was a while ago. And there were maps of how to get from Houston to Florida, maps of the Orlando International Airport complex, maps of the shuttle service to the long-term parking, and then a map of how to get to the alleged victim`s home.
GRACE: Oh! To Bob Hazen with WDBO radio. What was her demeanor in court? I`ve only met a couple of astronauts, but I`m completely in awe of them, completely in awe. Well, until today, that is. What was she like in court?
HAZEN: That was really the big shocking part of this, is you look at these astronauts usually and they`re larger than life. They`re heroes moreso than any sports figure could be. And today in court, she wouldn`t-- she knew where the cameras were in the courtroom. She specifically looked down towards the floor, would not look anywhere near the cameras. You could tell her face was just sunken.
When you look at the pictures of her in her NASA training, compared to what she looks like now, it`s just night and day. And you could tell that she just either realized she made the biggest mistake of her life or she had realized that her life had just fallen apart.
GRACE: And Jean, what about her friends that died in the tragedy?
CASAREZ: Well, that-- you`re talking about the Challenger tragedy about four years ago. She had friends in that disaster. And the anniversary is coming up in just a couple of days. So I think one could wonder if the emotions just were revisited within her and that caused her to do something that she normally would not have done.
GRACE: OK, OK. I don`t know if we`re trying for some mental defect, but that was years ago, Dr. Austin. Post-traumatic stress syndrome does not qualify as a lifetime defense.
AUSTIN: No, honestly, I don`t think this has anything to do with mourning the loss of her friends. This is something-- it`s an obsession that built up, and she was very determined to chase down this other woman, and what she says, scare her. It`s so irrational, I have to think she`s having a major breakdown of some kind. Something triggered it. I wonder if there`s a substance abuse, psychological-- I don`t know, but this is a major breakdown.
GRACE: Sounds like Austin once again making a lot of excuses for a criminal act.
AUSTIN: Whoa!
GRACE: When we get back, a former shuttle astronaut is joining us. Norm Thagard will weigh in.
But very quickly, to tonight`s ``Case Alert.`` Last night, we asked for your help, and because of you, a happy ending. A 78-year-old Florida man, Bill Mayle-- he disappeared traveling from Ohio to Florida-- found alive and well. Mayle suffers from Alzheimer`s. He went missing Saturday. Found last night after we asked for your help. He was safe and sound in Orlando`s International Airport.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant had in her possession a black bag, which possessed a steel mallet, a buck knife that measured four inches in length, and the BB gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we have appears a desperate woman who wants to have a conversation with the other woman. But she doesn`t shoot her. She doesn`t stab her. She doesn`t do anything. And there`s no evidence that she intended to do anything other than have a talk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Joining us right now, Norm Thagard, a former shuttle astronaut. Norm, thank you for being with us. What has been the reaction in the astronaut community to today`s arrest?
NORM THAGARD, FORMER SHUTTLE ASTRONAUT: I haven`t talked to anyone else in the program, Nancy, but I would imagine the reaction is probably similar to mine. It`s a fairly stunning thing, and I think it`s probably one of those things that no one would have foreseen.
GRACE: Mr. Thagard, your space missions, a total of four missions, the Challenger, Atlantis, Discovery, in `95, Mir, you launched with the Russians, a total of 140 days in space during five space flights. Would-- do you believe her colleagues have noticed a change in her behavior? This is a very stressful job.
THAGARD: If she had a psychological break during the period that she was training with those folks, one of her colleagues would have picked it up, maybe one of the training people. But these things can happen very suddenly, and it probably-- this one`s happened since a flight, so there`s probably no one that`s been following her that closely of late.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a really, really sad, sad case, that, you know, somebody of that stature, of that success in her professional career, ends up finding herself on the other side of the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A NASA astronaut in court today, charges of attempted murder. Joining us, a very special guest, a hero to many, Norm Thagard. He is a former shuttle astronaut, been on five missions. Mr. Thagard, again, it`s a real pleasure to speak to you tonight. What is the training like for an astronaut, for an American astronaut?
THAGARD: The training gets very intense as you get close to flight. In the last couple of months, you are working 70, 80 hours a week. But I think the real interest is probably in what sort of psychological screening is there. When I was in, you got examined by a psychiatrist and a psychologist as part of the selection process. But after that, except for the fact that a lot of people are paying a lot of attention to you, there are no more psychological exams.
GRACE: And to Jean Casarez. Her accomplishments are many.
CASAREZ: Oh, Nancy, it`s amazing. She not only graduated from the Naval Academy, which is amazing in and of itself, but she was a naval Flight officer, operational squadron, aerospace engineer. She was a mission specialist for the Discovery shuttle this last July.
GRACE: And now a defendant.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lisa Marie Nowak looked happy and excited before her launch on the Shuttle Discovery in July. In her police booking photo, she looks far worse today.
The married woman told police the incident was brought about by a, quote, "more than working relationship" with fellow astronaut Bill Oefelein in their hometown of Houston. Oefelein was also involved with the victim. Colleen Shipman had flown from Houston last night, and Nowak drove 1,000 miles from her home to OIA.
In the parking lot, police even found more disturbing evidence: a knife, a wig. The astronaut had plastic bags, latex gloves, and even rope to tie someone up with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, he left out the buck knife and the brand-new mallet. I wonder if it was purchased expressly for this. This woman`s career in limbo tonight, as well. She is a graduate from the U.S. Naval Academy, outstanding credentials. Tonight we learn, just as we go to air, Lisa Nowak placed on leave for the next 30 days, suspended from NASA.
To you, Jean Casarez, the attempted murder statute there in Florida, what`s unique about it, if anything?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, it`s interesting. I wanted to see exactly what the wording was of the attempt to murder someone, and it says it`s any act toward the commission of that offense. But you have to be stopped so you can`t complete the act, so you can see how prosecutors have charged attempted murder here.
GRACE: Joining us right now, a very special guest to weigh in, Jonathan Clark. He is a friend of Nowak`s and a former flight surgeon. Sir, thank you for being with us.
JONATHAN CLARK, FRIEND OF ARRESTED ASTRONAUT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Tell us about your friend. I`ve got her biographical data, and her resume is so impressive. I mean, 3,000 people, 3,500 try to be an astronaut. Only 20 make it.
CLARK: Right. Well, I knew Lisa because my wife was in the same astronaut class as her. And we were all naval officers together. My wife was a Navy flight surgeon, and she was very close to Lisa. They both had a lot of common interests; they loved kids and family life and gardening and flowers.
And I also just knew her, you know, somewhat professionally, as a flight surgeon, although most of it was more personal. I`d been over to their house. And Lisa`s son was also very close to my son. So we know them mostly from a friendship standpoint, but also just as professionals, as naval officers.
GRACE: Jonathan, was your wife on Columbia?
CLARK: Right. She was on Columbia, and, you know, obviously that crew didn`t make it back. And Lisa was one of our casualty assistance officers. She did a lot of stuff in the immediate -- you know, in that day and the next year, actually, or even several years helping out with things.
She also spent a lot of time with my son, who -- actually Lisa and Laurel looked a lot alike, so she was a tremendous person in helping us through the tragedy. And I wish there was something I could do to help her through this tragedy, because she`s a really good person.
GRACE: Well, you`re defending her tonight. You are a friend. With us is a friend of Lisa Nowak`s. It`s Jonathan Clark. His wife was lost on Columbia.
Jonathan, how shocked were you when you heard the news of today`s court appearance?
CLARK: Well, you know, I was shocked that it was Lisa. I was not necessarily shocked that something like this happened. I mean, these folks, the astronauts are under a tremendous amount of stress, and obviously something really tripped in her for this to happen.
But there`s a lot of things that go on. I see it from both the standpoint, as a former NASA flight surgeon and also as a NASA spouse, an astronaut spouse. And I see it in the spouses, a lot of the stress, the marital discord that comes with things.
And I also think that, you know, after somebody comes back from a space shuttle flight or flying in space, they have this tremendous high. And then there`s this letdown. And after they`ve kind of been through the high, there`s this low. And sometimes that low needs to be filled with something. And, you know, some of the things that might have happened here may have been, you know, in light of that.
I mean, obviously, she`s under tremendous stress and she probably has something underlying, you know, behavioral health-wise that`s going on, as well. And all I can do is hope she, you know, gets through this and gets the support she needs.
GRACE: I understand what you`re saying, the incredible anxiety, and excitement, and adrenaline rush of being an astronaut, coming back from a space mission. You`re a hero in this country; then you settle into regular life, regular, emphasis on regular. I think maybe sometimes people unwittingly seek out danger and excitement to fill that spot.
With us is Jonathan Clark, friend of Lisa Nowak`s. Where are her children tonight?
CLARK: Well, I mean, I`m sure they`re with...
GRACE: With the dad?
CLARK: ... with their dad. They live in Houston. Actually, NASA`s kind of put out the protective custody police and security people, guarding some of the families to keep the press and other people away. So I`m sure they`re, you know, in isolation with their...
GRACE: So NASA would actually send out security to protect the family?
CLARK: Oh, I think they certainly did that during the shuttle missions. They actually do it while the crew are away. And in a situation like this, where there`s a lot of press coverage, this kind of thing would happen.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Meryl in Mississippi, hi, Meryl.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Is any of this soap opera costing the taxpayers any money?
GRACE: Oh, Meryl, yes, it is.
CALLER: We`re carrying on about this diaper that she doesn`t want to stop and change. What kind of car goes 900 miles on a tank of gas?
GRACE: Meryl, I could have used you in a lot of closing arguments. You`re telling it like it is, girl.
Number one, I would wring my hands every time I tried a case or had a court appearance because I would know how much it would cost to bring in a court reporter, the sheriff, the judge, the bailiff, the whole shebang. So, believe you me, it is costing the taxpayers a lot of money, but no more money than any other criminal defendant costs.
And out to you, Bob Hazen with WDBO, there is a real fascination amongst all the e-mails we`re getting regarding the diaper.
BOB HAZEN, NEWS REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, the diaper is what everyone talks about. It`s the first detail...
GRACE: Not me, that`s not what I`m talking about.
HAZEN: But, yes, the diaper, apparently she had...
GRACE: Don`t throw me in that stew.
HAZEN: She had a box of diapers in her car when police actually caught her. And also in that car was a bag that had two used diapers in it. She admitted to the fact that she had used these diapers on her way so she wouldn`t have to stop.
But it`s also not uncommon for astronauts to use these both on the launch and the return from space, because obviously they can`t get around and move very often. They have to make do. So it`s something she clearly learned during her time at NASA and just took it onto this mission.
GRACE: Let`s unchain the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of the Florida jurisdiction, Hillah Mendez, out of New York, Midwin Charles.
Welcome, ladies. To you, Hillah. If this is your client, she`s done an awful lot of talking, according to this TRO and affidavit. She`s admitted to a lot, according to it.
HILLAH MENDEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, she has, but I think the most important thing that we`ve seen from this hearing is, here in the state of Florida, with an attempted first-degree murder charge with a deadly weapon, you`re immediately titled to no bond. But she walked out of court today with a bond, which means that the judge, who felt it necessary to grant her a bond, felt that the charges of attempted kidnapping and attempted first-degree murder didn`t rise to the necessary level to keep her in custody. And that says a whole lot about what the state of Florida`s case is against her.
GRACE: Agree or disagree, Midwin?
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree. In fact, I think that the attempted first-degree charge is an overcharge. And I hope it`s not the result of this case being tried in the court of public opinion.
GRACE: And very quickly to Greg Behrendt. How likely is it that this whole thing was made up in her mind?
GREG BEHRENDT, AUTHOR: It`s very likely that a good chunk of it was, because, you know, just the great lengths that she went to, to do this whole thing. But the thing that has to be said is that these kind of obsessions happen to everybody. Good people go crazy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Many in law enforcement recommend stun guns over real weapons. To show you how it works, I`m about to receive 50,000 volts of electricity. Do it. Oh! Oh! It hurts!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say this stun gun is similar to the one officers use on adult suspects and that the child showed the telltale signs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It kind of like burns or welts and marks where the metal prongs had made contact with the skin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives says Wittman used the device over a three-week period. They`re hoping to learn why a father would subject his own son to this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And allegedly it wasn`t just one stun gun attack on an 18- month-old toddler, his very own son, to discipline the child. It was at least 10 attacks, according to sources. Straight out to Dave Northfield with KGW, what happened?
DAVE NORTHFIELD, KGW REPORTER: Well, this case unfolded on Saturday afternoon, when Rian Wittman`s wife took her infant son -- he`s 18 months old -- to the police station in downtown Albany. They saw his injuries. And they immediately put out a warrant for the father, Rian Wittman.
By 10:00 p.m. that night, he was arrested. And tonight he is still being housed at the Linn County Jail in Albany, Oregon. The judge set bail yesterday at $100,000. He was arraigned yesterday on two counts of felony assault.
GRACE: And I want to point out to you that our colleague, Rick Sanchez, that took one for the team there with the stun gun, only got a 50,000-volt charge, only. This baby, an 18-month-old baby boy, got a 100,000-volt charge, at least once from a stun gun. When you get shocked with an electrical outlet, that`s only 120 volts, 120 volts. This child got 100,000 volts.
Out to Gloria Allred, civil rights attorney and victims` rights advocate, according to our documents, our sources, this had been possibly at least the tenth assault on the child with a stun gun. What took Mom so long to call police?
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: We don`t know, Nancy. We don`t know, by the way, whether she was there each and every one of the alleged 10 times that the child was hit by the stun gun or contacted by it. We don`t know if she learned afterwards. We don`t know whether he promised not to do it again. We don`t know whether she was...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That`s a good point.
ALLRED: ... whether there was fear of force, we don`t know. The good thing is that she finally did contact the police, and now her child is safe, if, in fact, he did this to that child, as is being reported.
GRACE: Well-put. Out to you, Mike Brooks. Can anybody just get a stun gun?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Well, let me make one thing clear, Nancy. We saw Rick Sanchez. He was shot with a Taser. It`s similar, but not exactly. The Taser -- the stun gun that this man was using on this 18- month-old child is an older model, not with a Taser. They still deliver an electrical charge. The Taser, 50,000 volts. These older models, over 100,000 volts at low amperage. And it can do a lot of damage. I`ve been shot with a taser, and I`ve had a stun gun used on me in the course of my law enforcement training.
GRACE: Why?
BROOKS: And both of them are not...
GRACE: Wait, wait. Let`s just back up right there.
BROOKS: OK.
GRACE: Why have you had a stun gun used on yourself?
BROOKS: Well, if we could have used an instrument on a citizen, we have to know what it feels like ourselves. So that`s one of the reason, when you teach Taser, you teach that assessment of things.
GRACE: Well, what did it feel like?
BROOKS: I tell you what, it`s not very pleasant at all, just like pepper spray. Everybody that goes through the FBI academy now, and most law enforcement academies, they also get sprayed with pepper spray, not very pleasant.
GRACE: Brooks, Brooks, pepper spray? Last story. Taser, stun gun, this story. What was it like to take a stun from a stun gun?
BROOKS: And I`ll tell you, you saw Rick Sanchez, he took a quick hit. If you have a stun gun, and it`s kept in you for quite a long time, you can lose your faculties. It will put you down on the ground instantly. And I tell you what, it`s one of the things I don`t want to ever experience again.
GRACE: Here`s what police had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say this stun gun is similar to the one officers use on adult suspects and that the child showed the telltale signs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of like burns or welts and marks where the metal prongs had made contact with the skin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Dr. Jennifer Shu, author of "Baby and Child Health," what would this do to an 18-month-old toddler?
DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN: So basically you get the external injuries, where the stun gun actually touches the skin. So you can get first-, second- or third-degree burns to the skin. Depending on where the shock is placed, it can be severe enough to cause broken bones, breaking a baby`s back or neck, can cause brain damage, or injury to the heart, affecting the heart rhythm.
GRACE: Joining us right now, a very special guest, Captain Eric Carter, with the Albany Police Department. Captain, thank you for being with us.
CAPT. ERIC CARTER, ALBANY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Thank you.
GRACE: Captain, I know you`ve been in this business a long time to achieve that position. Have you ever seen anything like it?
CARTER: No. This is the first case that -- in speaking with all of my co-workers that we can think of collectively -- where somebody`s used a stun gun on a small child like this.
GRACE: Captain, I`ve got to tell you, I prosecuted for many, many years and saw all types of child abuse, child molestation, you name it. I`ve never, ever, in all those years, Captain, heard of using a stun gun on a child. Never.
CARTER: No. Again, this is the first time. I`ve seen many things in my career where people have done cruel and unusual things to small children to punish them or to discipline them, but this definitely ranks up there in the tops of things that I have seen in my career.
GRACE: Not that there is any excuse, but what is his excuse, his alleged excuse for Tasering, stun-gunning his baby?
CARTER: He did not give an excuse or any reason and really didn`t discuss in great depth any reason or motive. So at this point in time, we`re still trying to piece together what the motive and what the reason was behind the use of the stun gun on his child.
GRACE: Captain, had there been any abuse ever reported before?
CARTER: Not to our agency. The only report that we have from -- involving the suspect, Rian Wittman, his report of a vandalism to his house last February.
GRACE: Sounds like a domestic issue, Gloria Allred. Out to the lines. Lee Andra in Washington, hi, dear.
CALLER: Hi, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: How likely is it that this guy can get charged with attempted murder on this baby?
GRACE: Good question. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Hillah Mendez, Midwin Charles, and, of course, Gloria Allred. What`s the likelihood? Could he possibly be looking, Midwin, at an attempted murder? That`s a huge voltage to a child.
CHARLES: He could be. But, you know, as a defense attorney, I always have to keep that hat on. I`d like to know, what`s the physical evidence here? Perhaps those bruises were put on that child`s body by some other way.
GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven.
CHARLES: Oh, you never know, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, let`s go to the source. Out to you, Captain Eric Carter. You already heard the defense lining up that the damages, the harm to the child, came from a previous incident. What were the child`s injuries?
CARTER: The injuries that the officers noted on the child`s body were bruising, and welts, and blistering to the skin that matched the marks from or the prongs from the stun gun itself. They matched up. And they were on numerous areas of the child`s body.
GRACE: And to you, Mike Brooks. It`s very apparent with a stun gun, that it has been used. It almost looks like a snake bite, right?
BROOKS: Absolutely. And as the captain was saying, you have the two prongs on this particular stun gun, Nancy. And the longer you hold those prongs against the skin, the deeper that the wounds are going to be, from first- to second- to possibly third-degree burns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This delivers 100,000-volt charge, is what this would. It runs off a nine-volt battery. But you`re just talking about an 18-month-old child, so it just has to be excruciating, that this would cause extreme pain to you or I.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: An Oregon man behind bars for allegedly disciplining his toddler with a stun gun. What else can you tell us, Jean?
CASAREZ: Well, Rian Wittman is now facing 30 years in prison, and there two counts of assault in the second degree, along with criminal mistreatment, and the whole question, though, is the motive behind this. As you addressed, why would he do this? No one knows at this point, but I think his wife might have an idea.
GRACE: But, Gloria Allred, every time we see a crime on a child, there`s never a reason for this. It could be rage, anger, frustration. No valid motive.
ALLRED: Well, yes. And, of course, it`s not necessary to prove a motive in a case like this. I`m very concerned, by the way, about the emotional well-being of this little baby, of this little toddler, and what harm and maybe what long-lasting harm may have been inflicted, and not only the physical damage, but in addition the emotional damage that can be very long lasting.
GRACE: Hillah Mendez, any charges against the mom?
MENDEZ: I think that any court or any prosecutor is going to look to charge the mother with child neglect, because possibly what took her so long to actually come forward and let the police know that this was happening to her child.
GRACE: Excellent thought, Hillah. I tend to agree with Gloria on this one: At least the mom finally did report it. Thank God for that.
Let`s stop to remember Army Private First Class Travis Krege, 24, New York, killed, Iraq. Big smile, sweet personality. His last trip home, he had two requests: a Buffalo Sabers hockey game and New York pizza and chicken wings. Travis Krege, American hero.
Thank you to our guests and to you, for being with us. NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.
END
