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Nancy Grace

Anna Nicole`s Mother and Lover Testify in Burial Rights Hearing

Aired February 20, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. It`s a tale of the tape, witnesses, wills, funeral issues and paternity issues at emergency hearings in Florida and California in the death of covergirl Anna Nicole Smith. One of Anna Nicole`s last interviews before her death played inside a Florida courtroom, where family and legal executors claim the superstar model`s body and custody of her 5-month-old baby girl, Dannielynn, a courtroom face-off between Smith`s boyfriend/lawyer Howard K. Stern, her mother, Virgie Arthur, and lover, Larry Birkhead.
On the stand, Smith`s mother, also companion Howard K. Stern. Stern gives insights into his relationship with Anna Nicole and her wishes for her own burial, wishes that were never mentioned in Smith`s 2001 will, a key issue at today`s hearing.

Also tonight, a California court weighs in on the custody dispute over baby Dannielynn, an LA judge refusing to hand over jurisdiction in the paternity battle.

As the courtroom battle goes on and on and on, we learn time is now of the essence on funeral plans for Anna Nicole, whose body still lays in a morgue under tight security.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE LARRY SEIDLIN, BROWARD COUNTY DISTRICT COURT: In the center of this maze is Dannielynn.

I have a grandmother, I have Mr. Stern, and I have another party that feels he may be the biological father.

My primary purpose right now is to give peace and closure to Miss Smith`s body.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: ... and they observed unfortunate deterioration much faster than they expected.

VIRGIE ARTHUR, ANNA NICOLE SMITH`S MOTHER: I have never met Howard Stern. This is probably the first time I`ve ever seen him.

HOWARD K. STERN, ANNA NICOLE SMITH`S LOVER: It really bothered Anna when Virgie went to the media and said that either Anna or I had murdered Daniel.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just can`t sit here because Ms. Opri did just make a statement to my client that he actually killed Miss Smith.

STERN: At that point, she said, This woman will never see my daughter.

SEIDLIN: We don`t want to get into punishing one another.

Grandma and whoever eventually becomes the primary custodian of this child are going to have to work together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Surreal doesn`t even explain what happened today. I think jaws are collectively dropping all over the country after watching these machinations in court. I`m going to that 30,000 screenwriters in Hollywood went to the beach because, hey, you can`t make this stuff up.

Now, the greatest revelation today came from Broward County`s chief medical examiner, Dr. Joshua Perper. And we`re very happy to have him with us -- because you, basically -- you dropped a bomb today when you said, Doctor, that Anna Nicole`s body is not in the greatest shape as of today. Could you please explain? And welcome to the show.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes. The embalmer which did the embalming on Saturday returned today to check the condition of the body and observed that there was an advanced discoloration of the face more than they expected. And they were afraid, or concerned that by next week, maybe the changes would be more advanced and might interfere significantly with adequate presentation of the body and viewing.

LALAMA: So Doctor, you`re saying -- and I believe you told the judge via telephone today in the courtroom -- that you think Saturday is the absolute deadline to actually give this body the respect it deserves, for lack of a better term?

PERPER: Yes. Well, you have to remember that the major viewing area is the face. And therefore, if the face becomes significantly discolored, the cosmetic which cover the face has to be much thicker, and therefore the resemblance to the actual appearance in life is much more remote.

LALAMA: Unbelievable. Doctor, you sound like maybe this was a surprise. First of all, explain to everyone, how does this happen? We know you have her pretty much hermetically sealed. I hope that`s an acceptable terminology. Did you have to, like, cut it open? Like, did you open it up? And what was -- did you gasp at what you saw? I hate to be graphic, but explain to us how bad this is.

PERPER: Well, I was in court at the time when they checked the body, and I didn`t want to open it again because this accelerates even the rate of discoloration, taking the body out, in and out. But I was told that there was an increased amount of discoloration, which I`m told by the embalmer is fairly normal after three or four days. But...

LALAMA: Doctor, what causes that? Excuse me. Explain to us what causes that, in layman`s terms.

PERPER: The discoloration is caused by the composition changes in the skin.

LALAMA: And at this point, is it still a situation where she will look OK in an open casket situation?

PERPER: Well, yes. Not absolutely perfect, but much better. And any kind of additional delay might make the picture much more grim.

LALAMA: All right. So you`re saying by Saturday, by Saturday at the very latest, we need to have a burial?

PERPER: Well, I -- and I suggest that -- and we suggested and the embalmer suggested to the judge that perhaps the viewing be done in Broward County, rather than ship the body and have the viewing somewhere else, wherever the body is going to be shipped.

LALAMA: And Doctor, the shipping actually causes further advanced deterioration, does it not?

PERPER: Absolutely. And that`s additional time lost.

LALAMA: All right.

PERPER: And...

LALAMA: No, go ahead, Doctor. I apologize.

PERPER: Yes. And beside that, there`s a bureaucratic procedure which takes three or four days. So this would constitute additional delay. So the ideal situation would be to do the viewing here in Broward County. And we would offer even our office for that, or a funeral home.

LALAMA: All right. Now, let me ask you this, Doctor. If the judge in the case, or whomever -- we`re still trying to figure out jurisdictions on just about everything -- but when it pertains to the body, that is Judge Seidlin. If for some reason, he decided not to do it, although he did indicate today he`d try to get it done because time is of the essence -- I mean, can you go in and get a court order and say, Hey, we need to do something with this deteriorating body?

PERPER: Well, it`s up to the judge, but I believe the judge will issue such order or there will be such arrangement tomorrow.

LALAMA: OK. You know, here -- I had to make all my own notes today. I just want you to see my little handwritten notes, three pages of three jurisdictions, and all the different legal matters that are being considered.

We`re going to start with Florida, and we`re going to start with Jean Casarez from Court TV. Jean, just size it up for us today, if you`re still not in a state of shock over today`s proceedings. What happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, it was quite a morning and quite a day in that courtroom. I don`t think anyone ever believed that all three players would be in the courtroom together, but it was so -- Howard K. Stern, Larry Birkhead -- I would say they were about a yard-and-a-half apart -- so close -- and then Virgie Arthur, the mother of Anna Nicole.

And I think the basic thing that came out of today was to start looking at the issue. Who legally deserves the body of Anna Nicole Smith, under Florida law, for proper burial? And number two, what was the intent of Anna Nicole Smith? Where did she want to be buried? Witness number one, Howard K. Stern, witness number two, Virgie Arthur, who`s still on the stand.

LALAMA: Well, you know what? Let`s stop for a minute and listen to a little bit of Howard K. Stern, if people didn`t have a chance to hear any of it today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STERN: Originally, I believe it was back in 1996, she was a client of mine. We became friends. We spent a lot of time together. Ultimately, we became more than friends. This was years ago. We didn`t say anything at the time.

She was my best friend, my lover, the mother of my daughter, everything to me, I mean, literally, everything, my whole world.

Anna wanted our marriage to be a legal marriage. I had some concerns because I was concerned about how people would perceive it. I was concerned that people would think that I`m making a run for her money because her son had passed away, and we didn`t want to give any perception that we were trying to hide any wrongdoing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: All right, now, let`s go to James Neavitt. I hope I`m saying your last name correctly, Mr. Neavitt. And you represent Howard K. Stern. You know...

JAMES NEAVITT, HOWARD K. STERN`S ATTORNEY: Hi, Pat.

LALAMA: ... I heard it said in court by Mr. Stern himself, he would give up any privilege of any money, anything that had to do with any money, any fee to remain the executor and to do what`s best for her and for the child. Did you believe that? First, how do you think your client did? And secondly, are we really to believe that he really has absolutely no monetary interest?

NEAVITT: Well, he doesn`t, and he`s not a beneficiary of the will. He said that. That that`s what the will says. And he has no interest in the estate of Anna Nicole, except for the benefit of his daughter.

LALAMA: How did you think he did today?

NEAVITT: You know, I thought he was -- from what I watched -- and I was in court all day, as you know, in my California case, and also on another matter. And you know, I thought he was sincere. I mean, that`s the way he talks to me, and he`s -- you know, he`s a very sincere person and he`s going through a lot. He`s tired. I could see that. He`s very tired looking. And he`s been through a lot over the last two weeks.

LALAMA: Mr. Neavitt, who`s watching the baby? Who has that child?

NEAVITT: You know, I -- we can`t talk about those things, for security reasons.

LALAMA: OK. But is it family? Is it -- you can`t even go in that direction, family, friends, bodyguards?

NEAVITT: The baby -- you know -- right. Howard arranged for the child to be taken care of, and the appropriate people are taking care of her. He`s taking care of his daughter.

LALAMA: Well, while we`re on the subject, because you were in the California court...

NEAVITT: Yes.

LALAMA: ... explain to us -- now, I understand the California judge said, I`m not going to give up the paternity issue. And at the same time, I understand that Larry Birkhead, the former lover, has got a -- served Mr. Stern today in Florida. Explain all that for us today.

NEAVITT: Well, first of all, we were in court today on several issues. One was whether or not the California court would assert jurisdiction over the custody of Dannielynn. And the court for, like, the third or fourth time said, No, it`s not a California issue, it should be dealt with in the Bahamas. And that`s how he ruled on that issue.

The other issue was whether or not there would be any kind of change in the order for paternity testing, and he did not change his order. He basically requested the Florida jurisdiction to allow Larry Birkhead`s expert to go and obtain the DNA that they need to do the testing -- for the DNA testing.

And the third issue that was before the court today was whether or not the court would grant their request that there be contempt against my client for allegedly lying in a declaration, and the court dismissed that contempt.

LALAMA: All right. So basically, where we stand now is that the court said, No, you`re not going to go after Mr. Stern for claiming he`s the father, that just doesn`t hold water, good-bye. Number two, it is Larry Birkhead`s attorney who wants the paternity issues heard in Florida, and that`s sort of still hanging now?

NEAVITT: No.

LALAMA: That`s not been resolved?

NEAVITT: No, the court didn`t get into my client`s involvement in terms of having jurisdiction over...

LALAMA: Well, not in California, but she tried to have him served today in Florida on that matter, in terms of the testing.

NEAVITT: Actually, they sent me the paperwork.

LALAMA: OK.

NEAVITT: I had the paperwork as of Friday, and so I know what it is. They`re attempting to join Howard to the California proceeding.

LALAMA: OK.

NEAVITT: There`s a process to do that, and that process starts, and there`s a hearing on that in, I believe, the first part of March of this year.

LALAMA: All right. Let`s go to veteran investigative reporter Art Harris. Art, something to add for us on all these issues. Where do you see this ending up? I mean, is it going to take some sort of an appellate court to figure out who`s got what jurisdiction? We`ve got three different places at issue here.

ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: I think the judge is going to rule by the end of the week, Pat. And I think what he`s trying to get to today, it seems -- who knows this woman and knows what she wanted? And Howard K. Smith (SIC) was very convincing about the depths of depression that she sank into after her son`s death and how obsessed she was with death and that she wanted to be buried next to him in the Bahamas.

Now, this is going to come under fire by Virgie Arthur, who did today establish that despite this venomous emotional interview that was played in court from her "Entertainment Tonight" interview with Anna Nicole, where she basically said she hated her mother and all the childhood ramblings...

LALAMA: Right.

HARRIS: ... Virgie Arthur came back and established that she had great relationships with her other children.

LALAMA: Right. Right.

HARRIS: And so I saw the judge just, you know, really trying to come to terms with, you know, where would this woman`s wishes be best served.

LALAMA: And Art, if I could just interrupt real quickly, let`s hear from Virgie because, you know, we don`t get to hear these people very often, and particularly fighting (ph) the matter. So let`s hear from Virgie Arthur.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARTHUR: One regret.

SEIDLIN: Yes.

ARTHUR: That I was not able to get her away from drugs.

SEIDLIN: She left your home at a young age?

ARTHUR: At 17.

SEIDLIN: Was she on drugs at the time?

ARTHUR: No.

SEIDLIN: No.

ARTHUR: No.

SEIDLIN: Why did she leave home?

ARTHUR: Because she was with the wrong crowd at school and she was getting in trouble.

SEIDLIN: Where`d she go?

ARTHUR: She went to Mexia, Texas, to live with my sister, my baby sister.

SEIDLIN: How long did she stay with your sister?

ARTHUR: Oh, probably six or seven months. But she quit school at 17. You could do that in Texas.

SEIDLIN: And what kind of relationship did you have with her for those first six or seven years?

ARTHUR: We had a good relationship. We went and had our hair done together. We went and got our nails and our toes done. We...

SEIDLIN: How far away was she living from you?

ARTHUR: Probably 15 miles.

SEIDLIN: Was she doing drugs in those days?

ARTHUR: No.

SEIDLIN: No. Then what happens? What happens next?

ARTHUR: She`s still working there. She meets a guy. He helps her to get into the photo shop, where she got into "Playboy" magazine.

SEIDLIN: And their relationship was?

ARTHUR: Boyfriend/girlfriend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Back to Art Harris. I`ve just got a few seconds, Art, to succinctly tell us -- she basically blames Howard K. Stern for a lot of this, does she not?

HARRIS: Yes, she blamed him for taking her down a very, very dark path that basically isolated her from the people that loved her. And that`s going to be a tough one for the judge to unravel. But you could see him grappling with it, like the family judge, the family law judge that he has been, a juvenile court judge he`s been. And he`s bringing all that to bear.

LALAMA: Yes. He`s another interesting character we will get to in a minute.

But to tonight`s "Case Alert." An investigation under way for a missing Michigan mother, 34-year-old Tara Grant, last seen by her husband February 9 when she returned to the Detroit area from a business trip in Puerto Rico. Police say the couple had an argument shortly after her arrival, and then Tara Grant, a mother of two, left their house, got into a dark sedan and vanished. Grant is 5-feet6, 120 pounds, with brown eyes and brown hair. If you have any information, call the Macomb County sheriff`s office at 586-307-9358.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERPER: when I returned to my office, I was informed by my chief investigator that the two embalmers which performed the embalming on Saturday had returned today to check the condition of the body, and that they observed unfortunate deterioration much faster than they expected. And their opinion was that if the body is to be viewed and look fine, the viewing should be done this week, Saturday or before. They said if it is next week, they are not sure that they can guarantee that there are not going to be changes which are going to interfere with the appearance especially of the face of the deceased.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Adding insult to injury is all this is about. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Meaning by that, that, you know, the medical examiner comes on board today to say, Hey, this body is not going to be in great shape. Time is of the essence. We need to have this viewing by Saturday.

You know, I want to go to Alex Goen. You`re the CEO of Trimspa. Thanks for being with us. I know you`re a friend of Anna Nicole and of Howard`s. I want to ask you, Mr. Goen, is Howard K. Stern getting a bad rap? I mean, a lot of people are looking at him with a suspicious eye. Is that legitimate? Is that right?

ALEX GOEN, CEO, TRIMSPA, FRIEND OF ANNA NICOLE SMITH: I think he`s getting a bad rap, no question about it.

LALAMA: Why? Why does everybody collectively say this guy did something bad, not just to her, but to Daniel, as well?

GOEN: Well, I think a lot of times, he`s a lawyer, he`s a bearer of bad news. Even with us, if Anna didn`t want to do something, Anna didn`t tell us, Howard told us. So of course, we weren`t very happy about that. And that was basically his job. His job is to go out there and tell people that, No, Anna can`t do this, Anna can`t do that, and protect Anna.

LALAMA: But you know, a lot of people asked -- when we heard about this video that came out recently where some people allege that she appears very high. Her face is painted in, you know, a clown get-up. And you know, he`s purportedly running the videocamera. And some might ask, She`s pregnant. Why isn`t he stopping his wife and he`s saying, Hey, I can`t let you do this. You know, We`re going to go get help. Are we jumping the gun in accusing him in that matter?

GOEN: I didn`t see the video. However, I know that the video is about Anna playing with a child. And as far as I`m concerned, when you play with a child, you normally play -- you put paint on your face. You kind of talk a little different. That`s what it sounds like happened to me. I`m not exactly sure. I didn`t see the videotape. But that`s the way I see it.

LALAMA: Let`s take a phone call here from our viewers. Serena in Michigan. Are you with us, Serena?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I am, Pat. Thank you.

LALAMA: My pleasure. What would you like to ask?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to first mention that my thoughts and prayers go out to Howard and his daughter. I think he`s been through such a wringer. But the question that I have is, first of all, it`s very apparent that Anna Nicole mentioned the fact that she wanted nothing more than to be with her son, loved him very much, couldn`t stand her mother.

And this judge is such a clown. I mean, he`s sitting here playing to the cameras. Let`s get this done and over with. I mean, can`t something happen? I mean, this is just -- I feel -- my heart goes out to the family. But this is just becoming a media circus, and this judge is not making it any better.

LALAMA: Boy, you`re right about that. Let`s ask Jean Casarez. I know you were in the courtroom, Jean. Did everyone get the feeling, like I did -- I think even one of the attorneys, I think it was for Mr. Stern, stood up and said, Your Honor, what`s going on here? I have to say, in 30 years of covering cases, I`ve never seen anything like today.

CASAREZ: This judge is very much an individual. I think we all have to remember this is probate court. It is a probate proceeding, not a criminal proceeding, so it`s going to be a little bit more informal. But I think, really, this judge is making headway because he has appointed in a number of days a guardian for the child. He`s trying to determine the issue at hand, who should receive the body.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STERN: She initially would not accept that Daniel was gone. And this went on for quite some time. It was quite a difficult process. You know, it was hard for her to talk about it, and she went through a lot of thought in deciding what his plans would be. And you know, throughout that time, the way that she went about it, it was never, Where is Daniel going to be? All of the discussions were always in the context of, Where are we all going to be?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in for Nancy Grace, just sitting here, trying to make some sense out of a plethora of issues. Who knew one person`s life could end up quite like this.

I want to go back to medical examiner Joshua Perper. You know, a question was raised to me, and I`m going to pass it along here. Do we know exactly how much time elapsed before Anna Nicole was last seen feeling great and looking good, and suddenly, she was a collapsed human being?

PERPER: Well, we know that she was seen last time at about 11:00 o`clock in the morning. And then for two hours, apparently she was not seen. She was in bed. And by the time -- at 1:00 o`clock, she was found collapsed. So this is the interval of time when the collapse, and apparently, the death occurred.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD K. STERN, ANNA NICOLE SMITH CONFIDANTE: Anna in a lot of ways always thought she was going to die young. She said that she thought she was going to be like Marilyn Monroe, so she thought she was going to die. And then also thought she was going to die when she was giving birth to Dannielynn, so Anna did talk about death. She talked about death, really from the time that I met her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Sad, sad, and very true. I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace tonight.

I want to go back to James Neavitt who represents Howard K. Stern in the California paternity matter. Just to clarify -- I don`t know if I asked you this clearly enough -- I want the viewers to understand that tomorrow was to be a deadline for DNA sampling, correct me if I`m wrong, from Anna and from the baby. Now that Anna has passed, where do we stand now?

JAMES NEAVITT, HOWARD K. STERN`S ATTORNEY: Well, that`s an interesting question. The court did not change that order; that order still exists. But the question is, you know, who is the order directed to? And the court specifically said that he wasn`t going to answer that question.

LALAMA: So what happens now? So what do we do?

NEAVITT: I mean, somebody has to take the order and enforce it. I assume that Mr. Birkhead`s attorney`s going to go and get the sample of DNA from the coroner which, under this order, they have a right to.

LALAMA: But what about the baby?

NEAVITT: The baby? You know, the baby has to be presented. Howard`s going to follow any court order made. And right now, there`s been no court order made to have him do anything. And that`s one of the issues of why California even -- we can question why California even has jurisdiction of this issue. This matter should be in the Bahamas so that a proper order could be made.

LALAMA: Got you. Well, we`ve gotten through (INAUDIBLE) the Florida issues now and the California issues, and finally we`re going to go through the Bahaman issues. And to my very good friend, Aidan Pickering, who is a producer from "Inside Edition."

And it`s so nice to know that you`re here with us, Aidan. How are you? And please size up all these -- let me just go through them real fast. We`ve got a guardianship hearing. We`ve got who owned the home that she lived in, and did she really own it? Who stole the video and the pictures? The Daniel inquest that`s coming up, the will and whether it`s even legitimate, and the immigration minister who took pictures of Anna in bed, clothed. Go ahead, Aidan. Take it away.

AIDAN PICKERING, "INSIDE EDITION": Gee, thanks, Pat. Thanks for making it so easy. It`s a laundry list, isn`t it?

LALAMA: Yes, it is.

PICKERING: Well, I mean, there`s a big hearing coming up here on Thursday here in the Bahamas, which I suppose kicks us off in the legal process, where, actually, really all it is at this stage is Virgie Arthur asking for the baby to remain on the island.

But at some point, legal briefs will be filed. And the big question becomes, well, what happens to this baby? And who, how and when will they get its sample of her sample of DNA?

Because this becomes a crucial thing. Larry Birkhead can give a sample. And perhaps at some point perhaps Howard K. Stern will give a sample, but it has to be tested against the baby to determine who the father is. So that`s a big issue. The house issue will come up at some point as to who exactly owns that Horizons house, where the baby is...

LALAMA: Right.

PICKERING: ... and where Howard K. Stern will be coming back to. And that`s a big one. But, of course, you know, there`s a dispute over, you know, whether Howard K. Stern can remain there or whether he has to move somewhere else.

What else have we got coming up? There`s also the inquest into Daniel.

LALAMA: Go ahead. Right, right.

PICKERING: And the inquest into Daniel, and that, again, could be a big proceeding here. That`s not due to start until next month. But I think something to bear in mind is that one of the attorneys in the case today said, you know, expect this to go slowly in the Bahamas. The wheels of justice turn slowly. He said it could be anything from 15 days to 15 months. So, you know, don`t expect anything soon.

LALAMA: The wheels of justice turn slowly when you`re busy having pictures taken with the person in question. Oops, I didn`t really say that. Sorry.

Aidan, you and I have covered many stories in Los Angeles together, and thank you so much for your insight. I`ll come back to you.

Let`s hear from one of Anna Nicole Smith`s final interviews, where she talks about her mother, Virgie, because one of the big issues is, she says I want nothing to do with my mother, I hate her guts. Virgie believes that she was fine until she got hooked up with you-know-who, Howard K. Stern. Let`s hear from her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNA NICOLE SMITH, FORMER MODEL: First of all, she`s not my mother. She`s my birth mother. And, no, she doesn`t know me. She doesn`t know my son. I left home when I was 15 years old, and, I mean, she hasn`t seen my son since he was probably about 5 years old. And she doesn`t know him. She doesn`t know me, for her to go out there and make thee ridiculous statements about me killing my son or Howard killing my son? Who does she think she is?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was the last time you spoke with her?

SMITH: The last time I spoke with her or the last time she beat me? The last time I got a beating from my mother, I think I was 21 years old, and before that was a big gap. I left home when I was 15, and she came to me to live in one of my houses, because her husband -- I don`t know which number -- she`s been married about 20 times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you have no relationship with her at all?

SMITH: No relationship whatsoever. I left home when I was 15 years old. I don`t know her. She doesn`t know me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Well, that`s an excerpt from an interview shown in court today that Anna Nicole Smith gave to "Entertainment Tonight" back in October. Boy, Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, this is the world that little Dannielynn gets to grow up in.

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, sounds great. Find a new world.

LALAMA: You know, you made a great statement before the show about, now, who can we trust? Is anybody really pure in this whole mess?

HOWARD: You know, with all this money involved, the truth is, there are some facts that need to be determined. One, who is the father of this child? Two, what was the cause of death? Why did Anna Nicole Smith die? Why did Daniel die?

Once you answer those questions, which are science questions -- they`re not about character, they`re not about conjecture, they`re not about some judge sort of deciding what people`s agenda is, or what, you know, where they`re coming from.

The answers to those questions will lead this. They will tell you exactly what people`s motives are, what people`s agendas are. It will all be very clear. There will still be plenty of confusion left. But at this point, go with the science, because there is so much money involved that no one can see clearly to what`s reality here.

LALAMA: You`re so right. And on that note, I know the lawyers are waiting to weigh in, so just bear with me.

But in the meantime, I`m going to talk to David Caplan, deputy New York bureau chief of "Star" magazine. Thanks so much. Why do we, first of all, care so much about this incredibly dysfunctional entity called the Sterns, and the Marshalls, and the Anna Nicole Smith? What is it about us as a society that we`re not talking about, you know, starvation somewhere in the Third World?

DAVID CAPLAN, "STAR" MAGAZINE: You know, it`s unfortunate to say, but I think we love our train wrecks. And that`s what we have here with the Sterns and the Anna Nicole Smiths. We saw this when she was alive, and unfortunately it`s continuing to plague her in her death. And it`s the most riveting story, definitely celebrity story we`ve seen in months. And, like I said, it`s really like being in a train wreck. It`s unfortunate, an unfortunate commentary, but everyone`s loving this.

LALAMA: But you know what, David? You know, somebody asked me -- I forget what, who and where -- but, you know, are we always going to remember her as the Marilyn, you know, the next Marilyn? And I`m like, no. I mean, she was a Marilyn wannabe. I don`t really think -- God rest her, and it really is so sad and pathetic. I`d love to know what happened to her in her life that made her achieve such a horrendous ending. But, I mean, she`s not even Marilyn, and then how sad that she had to aspire to be somebody who had her own problems.

CAPLAN: I mean, absolutely. I mean, she herself -- she definitely was an individual. But you`re right. She was very much a carbon copy to a certain degree of Marilyn Monroe.

But I really do believe, despite everything that`s happening now, and to a certain degree how her image is being a little bit tarnished by all these crazy goings-on, she will be remembered by us as a very glamorous icon in pop culture, because, you know, when Anna Nicole was good, she was good. She looked gorgeous. She looked great. She always, you know, looked great at events, and she made the scene. I think that`s how we`re going to remember her, despite all the monkey business around her death.

LALAMA: You don`t think that there`s like a lot of smirking, very quickly, going on?

CAPLAN: Yes, there`s a little built. I mean, there definitely is a little bit. But I think there`s so much negative energy around this, not to sound so hippie-dippy, but we should just focus on the good stuff and remember about Anna.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just can`t sit here, because Ms. Opri just did make a statement to my client that he actually killed Ms. Smith.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like Dr. Seuss when I speak of the trees and the Lorax. We`re talking about a child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We only want to do it through the proper judicial process. This has been a circus. There`s many things before your honor...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The court has repeatedly reminded us, and as family lawyers we know that what`s of primary importance is the best interests of the minor child.

LARRY SEIDLIN, BROWARD COUNTY JUDGE: And my point is, I must have a ruling, yes, no. He does have standing, or he does not. And I need it now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama sitting in for Nancy Grace.

I want to go back to Dr. Joshua Perper, medical examiner from Broward. You`ve been so kind to be with us. And it seems to me you have so much integrity, and you`re trying to make us understand how this works, so I don`t mean for this to be exploitive.

But do you have to keep checking the body every day? I mean, how does that work? Do you have to wrap it up? Who decides that, and how?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, what`s happening is that the embalming procedure -- that`s what you`re asking about, correct?

LALAMA: Well, I`m wondering, -- you said that, you know, it was checked, and you found out that there was some deterioration. I guess I just want the viewers to understand, do you have to go in every day and, like, cut some tape off and look at it? How does that work?

PERPER: No, they wanted to come after today to check the condition of the body, whether there is an increased rate of deterioration. And I don`t know if they plan to come every two days or so, but, anyway, they came today. And they observed that there was an increased spreading of discoloration.

LALAMA: But, Dr. Perper, excuse me. Who`s "they"? You mean like family members?

PERPER: The two embalmers.

LALAMA: I see. OK.

PERPER: The two embalmers which did the embalming on Saturday. They returned today to check the condition of the body, and they were concerned about this discoloration. They say it usually appears almost in every body, but this time it was a larger extent. And they were concerned that, next week, the spread of the discoloration might interfere with the appearance of the face, in spite of cosmetics.

LALAMA: I thank you. You have such a great ability to explain this complex issues, and we are all very grateful for it. I know you have to go. And thank you for your time, Doctor.

PERPER: You`re very welcome.

LALAMA: OK, listen, I want to go to Mike Brooks. Because, Mike, you know, we`ve got to talk about the potential for criminality here. I`m not saying there is any yet. OK, let`s just get that straight.

But we`ve got, you know, drugs that have been used, that appear to be not soundly prescribed. We`ve got things stolen from the Bahamas, in the way of tapes and pictures. You know, we`ve got allegations by the mother that Howard K. Stern might have somehow contributed to, you know, either Daniel`s death or her death.

What are we going to do with all this? Is there a potential for anything really nasty here?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Well, Pat, one thing we have to do, we`ve got to find out what`s in this toxicology report. Dr. Perper has done a fantastic job of keeping a good chain of custody of all the evidence that we`ve seen so far. And he`s not going to release anything prematurely.

He probably already has the urinalysis results. But he`s going to wait until he has all the information and give it all out at once to keep all the rumor and innuendo down and the circus atmosphere down to a minimum.

Then we go down to the Bahamas. There`s a lot of questions that need to be answered in the Bahamas. And one of them is, we still do not have a cause of death on Daniel, almost five months now, Pat.

LALAMA: Right.

BROOKS: And, you know, the Bahamian inquest takes place on March 27th. Now, the wheels of justice down there move extremely slow, and they are going to have over 30 witnesses. And one of the people they want to talk to the most down there is Howard K. Stern, because he`s the only remaining, living person who was in that hospital room when Daniel died.

And there`s a lot of other questions dealing with G. Ben Thompson, who claims that he`s the owner of the house, who went in with one of his relatives, apparently stole some property from inside that house. The locks have been changed numerous times. You know, where is Dannielynn right now? Is Dannielynn in the house? I hope Dannielynn`s somewhere safe, because that house apparently is a sieve.

LALAMA: Your best guess -- I know it`s unfair, but your best guess. Are we going to see any kind of criminal charge anywhere on any issue involving this case at some point?

BROOKS: That`s the $1 million or $435 million question, Pat. When the toxicology report comes back, then I think the investigation can move forward. Then we go down to the Bahamas. You may have burglary charges, because, still, even if someone owns that house, they can`t go in and take things. That`s at least taking property without rights and burglary. But we`re going to find out what the exact charges are down in the Bahamas very shortly, hopefully.

LALAMA: Absolutely. And, listen, I know, lawyers, you`re waiting, you`re waiting. Thank you so much. But we`re going to lose -- I`m coming to you, I promise.

Alex Goen, from TrimSpa, I know you have to go, as well. You know, getting back to, you know, your client, Howard K. Stern, a lot of people are suspicious of the drugs, and how she got the drugs, and did it have anything to do with her getting those drugs? Can you address that at all?

ALEX GOEN, TRIMSPA CEO: Me, Alex Goen?

LALAMA: Yes. You`re close friends with Howard K. Stern, and you were close friends with Anna. I mean, you must have seen some of the -- you must have seen some things that seemed untoward. Were you concerned? Did you ever say maybe she needs to get help?

GOEN: You know, understand, after Daniel passed, certainly I asked Anna many times if she was taking drugs, or if she took methadone. She said repeatedly she didn`t. I believe her.

I don`t think that you`re going to find that drugs played a role. I think she probably took prescription drugs. I mean, when you think about it, she had to get over the loss of someone that she loved for 20 years. He was her life. I mean, without question, I think when he died, part of her died, and maybe continued to die.

But as far as these illegal drugs, I don`t believe there`s any illegal drugs. And I never saw her really do anything other than a few times that I thought she drank a little bit too much, but very few times. I think, as a matter of fact, two times.

It`s not like she drank every weekend. She drank maybe once every three or four or five months. And then when she drank, I did notice she drank a little too much, but that was about it.

LALAMA: And so you have faith in Howard? You think he`s really just an innocent bystander trying to look out for her well-being?

GOEN: Howard cared about her tremendously. As far as all these allegations of him not taking care of her, I totally disagree. I think it was just the opposite. No question about it, not always did people have the access to Anna that they wanted. I mean...

LALAMA: You know, it`s so hard...

GOEN: I mean, people pulled on her every which way.

LALAMA: It`s so hard, Alex, as the person asking the questions, because, you know, you get so concerned. I personally don`t want to be perceived as unsympathetic, but, you know, these are questions that people want to know. She`s got five different bottles in her hotel room. Is no one watching out for her? Is no one, you know, concerned for her?

And, you know, speaking of Howard, your friend, let`s go to a sound bite. I think we want to hear more from him from today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD K. STERN, ANNA NICOLE SMITH CONFIDANTE: Anna in a lot of ways always thought she was going to die young. And she said that. And she thought she was going to be like Marilyn Monroe, so she thought she was going to die when -- I forget what the age is, 36 or 37. So we discussed it prior to that.

And Anna also thought she was going to die when she was giving birth to Dannielynn. So Anna did talk about death. She talked about death really from the time that I met her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: All right. Jean Casarez, Court TV, what in the world can we expect for tomorrow?

CASAREZ: Well, Virgie Arthur will retake the stand. She is the mother of Anna Nicole. And in regard to that custody hearing in the Bahamas, just wait, because the judge said he`s going to call the Bahamas because he wants it continued, because this case may not be finished.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: I have to now finally get to my very patient prosecutor and defense attorney. We`ve got Josh Hanshaft, prosecutor, and we`ve got Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney and custody law specialist. Thank you so much for your patience. Lots to get through tonight.

Very quickly, it`s a very short block. So tell me, the judge, everybody`s talking about the judge. In your histories -- and we`ll start with Josh, just because you`re the first name I`m seeing right now -- tell me, very quickly, your impressions of him.

JOSH HANSHAFT, PROSECUTOR: From what I`ve watched -- you know what? I`ve seen a lot of judges in my career so far. And I have to say a lot of people have been criticizing him and saying, you know, it`s a circus that`s going on in that courtroom. And, yes, granted, he has put on a little bit of a show.

But you have to consider, there`s a lot going on here. He may be putting on a show; he may be a little nervous. It may be a hundred issues. But you know what? He did highlight the issues, which is, let`s not us forget that this is about a child, and the best wishes of that child. And he did keep bringing that up.

LALAMA: OK. Penny Douglass Furr, you take on it?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, ma`am. The judge -- I think everyone has to understand that this court has jurisdiction to do one thing, and that one thing is to determine what to do with the body of Anna Nicole Smith.

Now, I did research on that earlier today, and the Florida case law clearly lays that out by saying that, if there are children, if there`s any child or children to the person who died, then that child or the guardian for that child would make the decision. It would not go back to the parent. And so it should go to the guardian for the child.

And the other thing they would look at...

LALAMA: Very quickly. Very quickly.

FURR: ... what Anna Nicole Smith wants. And I think they`ve made that clear.

LALAMA: OK, thank you. Brilliant.

Tonight, we remember Army Chief Warrant Officer Keith Yoakum, 41, Hemet, California, killed in Iraq. A U.S. Army pilot, Yoakum enlisted after high school, his military career spanning two decades. Yoakum turned down a nomination for the Army`s prestigious Golden Knights Parachute Team to serve in Iraq. Yoakum dreamed of flying planes since a teen, receiving multiple medals, including the Purple Heart and Bronze Star. Yoakum planned on building an airplane hanger and landing strip with his brothers to teach his teen daughters how to fly. He leaves behind a grieving wife, Kelly, who remembers him as a proud father. Keith Yoakum, an American hero.

Thank you all to our guests, and thank you for being at home and joining us. And have a great night, and talk to you tomorrow.

END