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CNN Larry King Live
More On The Battle Over Anna Nicole Smith's Body; The Bodyguard Speaks Out
Aired February 23, 2007 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, you thought the battle over Anna Nicole's body was over?
Not so fast. Her mother files a motion to keep her from being buried in the Bahamas. We've got the latest.
Plus, a prime time exclusive -- Anna Nicole's bodyguard, who tried desperately to revive her in her hotel room the day she died.
And then friends of Anna Nicole. Their daughters sang at her son's funeral.
And attorneys on both sides of the courtroom battle over who's the baby's daddy.
It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening.
We begin in Plantation, Florida with John O'Quinn. He is Virgie's attorney -- the attorney for Virgie Arthur, who was also supposed to be with us tonight.
What happened to our lady friend, John?
JOHN O'QUINN, ATTORNEY FOR ANNA NICOLE'S MOTHER, VIRGIE ARTHUR: She's -- she's very tired, exhausted, and she's now taking a nap, Larry.
KING: Will you get us up to date on where this appeal stands?
O'QUINN: The appeal stands fine. We've -- it's a two step process. One is they asked that the order be stayed, no body be moved until the appeal is done. That has been prepared and filed and Monday morning when the court opens, our appeal will be filed.
KING: I thought Virgie said that she didn't want to delay the burial any more than it has to.
Is that still her feeling?
O'QUINN: We don't want to delay it anymore than it has to be and we've asked for an emergency appeal to be decided as quickly as possible.
But the decision of the court... KING: Will the body there...
O'QUINN: The decision of the court is completely contrary to law and is incorrect and untrue.
KING: Is the body still in Florida?
O'QUINN: The body is still in Florida in the medical examiner's facility in a refrigerated situation. So it's OK.
KING: All right, what is the reason that the judge made an error, in your opinion, in saying she should be buried in the Bahamas?
O'QUINN: The outcome of this case is governed by a specific Florida statute that says that the next of kin -- and my client is clearly the mother of Anna Nicole Smith -- and that the next of kin is to be the one to have the body.
The judge has actually countered that statute by giving the body to a five-month-old child. A five-month-old is not 18 years old. It is not an adult and under the law cannot make this decision, Larry.
KING: Who, then, John, who hears the appeal?
O'QUINN: Well, we've filed the appeal. We got the order corrected to give the body to the mother of Anna Nicole Smith.
KING: I know.
But who hears it? The Florida Supreme Court? A higher -- who hears the case?
O'QUINN: No, no. This right now is an appeal to the 3rd District Appeal Court, which is located in West Palm Beach. It has jurisdiction over Fort Lauderdale.
KING: And do you expect a quick hearing and decision?
O'QUINN: Yes, sir. I expect a quick hearing, probably in two weeks, and a decision in two weeks.
KING: That means the body will have to remain for two weeks?
O'QUINN: The body will be in the -- in Fort Lauderdale in the county office of the morgue, the county morgue, for two weeks. That means that's refrigerated. It's being taken care of and nothing bad is going to happen to it.
KING: You're saying, John, it will not decompose any more?
O'QUINN: It's not going to decompose any more than you and I decompose because we're getting older.
KING: What's this been like for you, John?
O'QUINN: Well, it's been, A, exhausting, and very exasperating because I believe the judge started out with the wrong decision already cemented in his mind. He's the one who appointed the ad litem so he could get around the 18 years of age requirement. And I think he had already decided what he was going to do before he heard the evidence. He should have just sent us all home and done it.
KING: You had some physical difficulties of your own in court.
How are you feeling?
O'QUINN: How am I feeling myself?
KING: Yes. Yes.
O'QUINN: I feel OK. I feel OK. I feel like my client is going to win, because she should win. And I think this will all be straightened out in two weeks and she'll get to take the body and bury it. It's the body of her daughter, Larry. It's her daughter.
KING: But don't you any...
O'QUINN: Her flesh and blood. She gave birth...
KING: ... any compassion for the fact that the -- Anna Nicole Smith's son is in the Bahamas.
O'QUINN: Well, Anna Nicole Smith's son in the Bahamas is -- is not the main creature in this whole thing, but he's going to be probably removed from the Bahamas and reburied in the United States. The Bahamas is a foreign nation, Larry. It costs $10,000 and it requires a passport to go see anything.
So everybody who wants to see this body will have to take their passport and $10,000 and somehow get to the Bahamas.
That's unacceptable.
KING: John, best of luck.
We'll be in constant touch.
O'QUINN: Thank you very much, Larry.
Good luck to you.
KING: Yes. You, too.
O'QUINN: All right.
KING: John O'Quinn, Virgie Arthur's attorney.
Back with more right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTA BARTH, ATTORNEY FOR HOWARD K. STERN: You don't know what your daughter's intentions are as to where she wants to be laid to be rest, do you?
VIRGIE ARTHUR, MOTHER OF ANNA NICOLE SMITH: Well, not except when she was at home. She said she wanted to be buried in Texas.
BARTH: When she was home?
ARTHUR: Yes.
BARTH: OK.
ARTHUR: When she lived in Texas. That's where she came from. That's where she was born and that's where she wanted to be buried, with the family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We now turn the clock back to the day Anna died.
Joining us is "Big Moe." "Big Moe" is Anna Nicole Smith's friend -- or was his friend -- and bodyguard. His wife is a nurse. She found Anna unconscious, called Moe, who came to the room and started CPR until the emergency crew got there. And, of course, all of it in vain.
"Big Moe" wanted to say something about something our last guest said.
What do you want to comment on, Moe?
"BIG MOE," BODYGUARD: Well, just hearing him talk, I, you know, I have utmost respect for attorneys. I used to be a bailiff before I became a firefighter, a paramedic.
And to hear him come out of his mouth and say that to go to the Bahamas it will take a passport and $10,000 is uneducated. I don't know what he was thinking.
I have been to the Bahamas in the last -- since Daniel passed, at least seven or eight times, and I've never had to carry $10,000 with me.
I had to carry my passport, but, you know, everyone should have a passport. You never know when you have to get out of this country. And that's for your protection.
KING: How long were you and Anna friends?
"BIG MOE": Well, our friendship started back in 2003. And, of course, I was hired to protect her. And when we first met, she's a lady that really has a hard time trusting people, because she's been screwed over so many times. And when we met, we hit it off real great.
When I work, I consider -- I take personal protection to the extreme. I take personal security to the extreme. I've had colleagues who tell me never take personal protection personal. But that's just the way my character is.
If I'm protecting you or if I'm hired by you, you're my friend. You're my family.
And with her, it was -- it was closer than family. We was like, well, it was not closer than family. We was more like brothers and sisters. That's how she took me as.
KING: We -- you were never boyfriend and girlfriend, though?
"BIG MOE": Oh, never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever.
KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
"BIG MOE": She's a beautiful woman, don't get me wrong. But me and her never ever -- I considered her a little sister, even though she was a little older than me, I considered her my little sister and she considered me her big brother.
KING: All right, tell me what happened the day she died.
Who -- how did they contact you?
"BIG MOE": Well, what happened was we was -- first of all, Anna went down there to purchase a boat because she likes boating. That was her way of getting away from all the stress and people coming over and -- coming over to the house -- the paparazzi coming over to the house and her going to a computer and looking at her bad press. She was over there for that.
And Howard was instructed by Anna to go purchase the boat that they came to get. And, at the time, you know, Howard -- because she was sick earlier that week, Howard asked me to stay behind. But I had a prior engagement to help someone out for like 20 minutes.
So I had my wife, who is a registered nurse, and which Anna took my whole family in as her family kind of, you know, like...
KING: So what happened?
"BIG MOE": So what happened was she -- when I went away, she was there. I called my wife from time to time and asked her how things was going. And she said everything's going great, she's sleeping. And so I hung up.
About five minutes later, she calls me back frantic and said oh, come back quick. Stop whatever you're doing. Something's wrong with Anna. Anna's not breathing. I'm on her trying to give CPR and everything.
I said what?
You know, when you hear something like that, you're stunned. You're startled. So you say -- I said what? And so I rushed back. And on the way back she told me to -- she told me to call 911 because she was in the middle of doing CPR.
Now, she called me because I was the last person to call her and way the ear -- the Bluetooth earpieces work, you can press a button on the earpiece and call the last number called. So that's how my number was called.
And so on the way back, of course, I called -- I did call Howard first, because that's her husband. And it did take me longer than a minute to say what I had to say. And then I called the hospital liaison who knew the address of the hospital, because I know if I would have dialed the hospital -- dialed 911 and tried to explain from my cell phone...
KING: Yes.
"BIG MOE": ... and tried to explain where she was, I mean they might have gave -- because I have a 305 number. That's a Miami number. And they might have given me a city of Miami number. So I had the hotel call.
So when the hotel called, I got in about five, 10 minutes after she called me and saw her on the bed.
I pushed off the covers off the bed and I looked at her. And Anna has very voluptuous, beautiful lips, and full lips. And when I saw her, her lips didn't look right. They looked kind of pale and blue.
So I slapped her on the face and tried to wake her up. And when she didn't wake up, I picked her up off the bed and placed her on the floor so I could have kind of a hard surface to -- just in case I had to do CPR.
So I checked for a pulse and I thought I felt a pulse but I -- it probably just was my imagination. And when I was on her and I was trying to get her back, I figured I did it before. I knew I could do it again. And it was something just putting my...
KING: Wait a minute.
You did CPR with her before?
"BIG MOE": Yes, sir.
KING: And what was it about?
"BIG MOE": Well, it was like three weeks after Anna -- three weeks after Daniel had passed. And Anna was, you know, she had a C- section. I don't know if you understand how C-sections are.
KING: Yes, I know.
"BIG MOE": She was in a lot of pain. And, you know, she was depressed from her son passing. It was about three weeks after the passing. She liked to get into her pool and she has a floatie and she likes to wade in the water. So she was wading in the water and I heard a little splash. You know, I didn't think nothing of it. You know, I thought maybe she was kicking the water with her feet.
But then that's when Howard screamed at me and said Anna was in the water. And when I looked up, she was going to the bottom of the water. So I dove in the 10 feet of water and pulled her out and...
KING: And CPR then?
"BIG MOE": And then I had to revive her back.
KING: You recovered her?
"BIG MOE": Yes. But...
KING: How did you...
"BIG MOE": Hold on. Hold on.
KING: I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
"BIG MOE": Let me finish.
But when I revived her, she got up thanking me, you know, appreciating me. She didn't get up like someone that wanted to die and said why did you leave me down there?
No, she liked life. She was -- it wasn't a suicide attempt. I'm hearing all of this where she wanted to commit suicide then. That is not so, because afterward she was very gratified for...
KING: I've got it.
When did you know that you probably had lost her while you were doing the CPR in the room?
"BIG MOE": Well, you know, I -- I don't know if it was my arrogance or -- I just -- I never thought I lost her, actually. I mean, in the back of my mind, I thought I lost her but, you know, I see it in my head all the time and I just, you know, when I had my lips around her lips blowing, breathing life, breathing air in her and they blew back, I just -- deep down I just -- I figured that she was, you know, going to see -- see her son Daniel. Because every time she would sleep and wake up, she would say that Daniel was lost.
I mean she was a grieving mother, a grieving mother. That's what people don't understand.
And it kills me to have to come out here and -- I feel honored, though -- to come out here and save her name because you have all these analysts and all these people talking bad about her, you know? She was a loving mother.
KING: Did -- how long did you do the CPR?
"BIG MOE": I did it about 15 minutes. About 15 minutes, 15, 20 minutes.
KING: Would you say, "Big Moe," that she was dead there in the room?
"BIG MOE": More than likely, yes, she had passed on.
KING: Let me get a break and we'll come back with more of "Big Moe" on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. We'll talk about his relationship with Anna Nicole's late son Daniel and the special mother/son relationship Daniel and Anna had.
Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: "Big Moe" is with us, Anna Nicole Smith's friend and bodyguard.
All right, you were there through all of this.
What do you make of all these people coming forward now -- I knew her, I loved her, I liked her?
"BIG MOE": It's -- it's funny to me because last night I stayed up, I don't know, until like 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning just watching different shows, trying to figure out if someone is going to say something nice about the whole situation over there.
And it seems like everyone is blaming Howard to being some type of control freak. But I've been there and I know Anna was very conscious of everything she had to say. Everything -- every decision she had, it was from her own mind.
Now, I see Jackie Hatten come on and I remember she came by the house one time and -- over in the Bahamas, trying to get in. And I told her that, you know, I pulled her to her side. I told her that, you know, at first I told her that Anna was asleep. And then she says, no, no, I know she's not asleep. I want to see her. Just wake her up.
And then I pulled her aside and said look, Anna do not want to see you. She said she doesn't like you and she wants you to stop talking about her and all these things.
And then all of a sudden...
KING: Really?
"BIG MOE": Yes. And she's getting on here like she's the godmother of -- of Anna's babies, of Dannilynn and Daniel. And that is totally not true. Dannilynn hasn't even been baptized yet to have a godmother.
KING: How close -- how close, Moe, was the mother/son relationship?
"BIG MOE": Well, it takes me to the story of Adam and Eve, when god had Adam in the Garden of Eden, he took a rib from Adam and gave it to the woman to make Eve. And when Daniel passed, it was like that rib was taken from her. And that rib was the closest to her heart. That's why I always say that beyond all the speculations and everything, Anna died from a broken heart. She just couldn't get over it.
The media wouldn't let her grieve. She was someone that read her own press. No matter how much myself or Howard or any other people that was close to her tried to get her away from that computer, she would always read about these things and how people would say that he -- she gave him drugs and how Howard gave drugs.
That hurt her real bad.
KING: Yes. Boy, so -- so you obviously think she should be buried in the Bahamas?
"BIG MOE": Oh, most definitely. Now, Larry, I was there when she purchased these plots. I mean I was sitting right there. And me alongside Howard, alongside Patrick and Paul, who was there, we all was trying to convince her that well maybe burying Daniel in the U.S. would be better, you know? So, you know, it's a better thing and everything. And it's a better -- people can see him and everything.
And she was very adamant and very stubborn when it came to that, that she wanted to have Daniel buried there because she was going to live the rest of her life and she was going to die there.
Now, people don't buy extra plots just to say OK, I'm going to buy these extra plots here and then all of a sudden when they pass away, be taken from where they wanted and longed to be to go elsewhere, especially Texas.
We had to sneak past Texas on some of the bus tours that I did with TrimSpa -- by the way, who have been very great to Anna. And they do a great job.
The people of the Bahamas treat her very well. And she loved it there. I mean she bought another house outside the house that she was living in.
KING: What do you think she...
"BIG MOE": So that's the only place she wanted to be.
KING: What do you think she would have gone on to do in her life?
"BIG MOE": Well, Anna had very great aspirations of being more -- do more acting. And she was looking at several scripts. And, as a matter of fact, she was joking with me and said, "You know, Moe -- "Moe-Moe" -- that was her little pet name for me. She said, "Moe-Moe, I'm going to put you in a film," and she was like oh, you'll play my bodyguard."
I said oh, yes. It's -- it was just funny. She was a very bright, beautiful woman. I mean we all forget that she was a mother who lost a child that she adored. She spent more than half of her life with Daniel.
KING: Why do you think there is such unusual interest in this matter?
"BIG MOE": Because media likes people -- America likes controversy. And they like controversy so much, and Anna is surrounded by controversy.
Who's the baby's daddy?
Why the son passed away?
Why does she act like she's on drugs?
Why this?
Why that?
People like that type of stuff. And even me, personally, when this all happened, I -- I've had tried -- people -- the media -- there's members of the media that tried to blackmail me to say something negative about Anna.
But I can't say nothing negative about Anna because Anna was a wonderful, beautiful person.
And beyond what anybody else said and beyond all these folks that are disgruntled workers, because -- like I see Bobbie Trendy. I mean Bobbie Trendy has not been around since season one of her show. She fired him on the air. And he comes on and talk about -- talk all like he knows Anna.
I haven't seen that. I've been with -- I haven't seen Bobbie Trendy not one time, not talked to him or anything. We've had plenty of hair stylists. We have plenty of people that works in -- that designs her clothes and her home, and I've never ever -- outside of negative things -- heard her say anything about Bobbie Trendy.
But he's getting on here and using the limelight just for his own good.
KING: Do you think Larry Birkhead might be the father, though?
"BIG MOE": Anything is possible. But I'll tell you one thing. I asked Anna personally. I said, I said, "Anna, baby girl, who is the father?"
And she looked at me in my face and said, "Moe-Moe, Howard's the father."
Now... KING: But if she -- if she had more than one relationship, she wouldn't know, would she?
"BIG MOE": She said, "Moe-Moe, Howard is the father."
Now, I can tell you that Howard, when he is around that baby, he treats her like gold, just like -- as a matter of fact, he treats her like platinum. He treats Anna like gold, close to platinum. They almost as one. And that's when you know that would make a good father. If you -- if the father really loves the mom, which Howard really does love this mom, love Anna, you know he's going to take care of the baby like it's his own.
And other people that's out there, this Van whatever, Zsa-Zsa's husband...
KING: Yes. Yes.
"BIG MOE": ... and...
KING: The prince.
"BIG MOE": The prince -- yes. The prince and Larry, I mean these guys, they -- they didn't love Anna. I mean, you know...
KING: Well, you don't think Larry loved her?
"BIG MOE": No. Not at all.
KING: You don't?
"BIG MOE": He -- I think he was infatuated. Now, I met Larry the same time that Anna did at the Kentucky Derby back in 2004. And...
KING: I was there.
"BIG MOE": Yes. And he -- and he practically begged her to be a photographer, be her photographer. And she agreed and he would travel around with us. And if you -- you could see the pictures of Larry in the pictures and, you know, I mean he was like everyone else that wanted to be around Anna. Some...
KING: All right, let me get a break.
Hold it, Moe.
When we come back Moe will be joined by a couple who were also close friends to Anna. Their daughter even sang at Daniel's funeral. And one of them was the first to see how Anna's Bahamas mansion was ransacked right after her death.
We'll talk about that and more, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Big Moe remains with us. He's in Washington.
And now we're joined in Ft. Lauderdale by Patrik Simpson and Pol Atteu, friends and frequent business associates of Anna Nicole Smith, spent a great deal of time with her and Howard Stern at the Bahamas' mansion. In fact, their daughter -- they are a couple -- their daughter, Shelby, sang at Daniel's funeral.
Patrik, how did you come to meet and know Anna Nicole?
PATRIK SIMPSON, SMITH'S FRIEND: Well, Larry, I met Anna through Pol. She was friends of Pol for several years, about eight years. And when we first got together, Anna needed to approve of me and our relationship. And so Pol took me up the house to meet her.
POL ATTEU, SMITH'S FRIEND: Larry, do you blame me? I had to bring, you know, the new guy around to Anna, my friend, to tell me everything was going to be OK.
KING: How did your friendship begin, Pol, with Anna?
ATTEU: Actually, she needed a dress for the Academy Awards. And you know I do gowns and evening wear, right? So...
KING: Right.
ATTEU: ... I was brought up to her house. I made an appointment. I went up there to see her. I've always loved and adored her, but then to see her in person was the most amazing -- and it was almost just unbelievable. And we just got along great and kept a sincere, genuine, consistent friendship all along.
KING: There are reports that you guys were instrumental in picking Daniel Smith's burial site and Dannielynn's name. Is that true, Patrik?
SIMPSON: I was with Anna in the Bahamas. And I was -- we were all brainstorming and throwing out names. And before we went to the Bahamas, we were told the baby was going to be named Hannah Rose...
ATTEU: Hannibel.
SIMPSON: Hannibel Rose. It was Hannibel Rose. And then after Daniel passed, we started throwing names out. And I had said, why don't we name her Daniela Hope? And then, of course, it was Dannielynn...
ATTEU: Hope.
SIMPSON: Dannielynn Hope.
(CROSSTALK)
ATTEU: But, of course, they scribbled a whole bunch of names on the card first so that Anna was writing them out to see how it flowed.
SIMPSON: Right. And then she kept on having them read them out. KING: Moe is still with us. Moe is still with us. All of you were involved in that photo of Anna with Bahamian immigration minister Shane Gibson. It cost Shane his job. Let me ask Moe first what your impression was in that moment. You were all there.
"BIG MOE," BODYGUARD: Yes, we were all there. As a matter of fact, the picture...
ATTEU: Well, Moe was swimming with Anna and then brought her out of the swimming pool, because she wanted to take a little bath, and then came inside the house, and Shane just came to visit.
KING: All right. Why did Shane get a bet rap, Moe?
MOE: OK, this was what happened. As a matter of fact, the picture that you just showed, I shot that picture. Anna, after the baby...
ATTEU: (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Don't interrupt. Go ahead.
MOE: After the baby -- after we had a little baby shower, that was baby shower they threw for Anna to try to cheer her up, because, you know, she had been going through a lot of stuff. After the baby shower, she got terribly depressed again, which she does every day. She gets terribly depressed about her son, Daniel.
She was in the room. And Shane Gibson came in the room. And he said he would not leave. He said, "I'm not going to leave until I see you have a smile on your face." So it took about 15, 20 minutes before Anna got a smile on her face. And he said, "Well, take a picture with me."
So then that's when Howard started taking these pictures, and they were friendly pictures. I mean, they were fully clothed. We have to use our common sense here. Now, the reason why that picture was leaked is because the person that stole the stuff out of her house wanted to ruin the man's career.
ATTEU: Right. But...
MOE: And what happened -- and the reason why he resigned is because they have some kind of political fight going on over there, by the different party.
KING: I have limited time, folks. Patrik, you also have information about the break-in, right?
SIMPSON: Yes. Pol was at the house when that was going on.
ATTEU: I actually had to file a police report, because Howard was in Miami, I mean, just devastated.
SIMPSON: I was with Howard in Miami, just kind of helping keep him together.
ATTEU: So I took that opportunity to go into the Bahamas and, you know, take care of Dannielynn, make sure everything was going to be, you know, properly administered there as the way Anna and Howard would have liked. And since I was familiar with the house, familiar with the neighborhood, familiar with everybody there in the Bahamas, I left immediately.
Upon arrival, all I could do is -- I was on the street for four hours. And the only house that I knew that I've always resided at when I came to the Bahamas, being welcomed in by Howard and Anna both, I was locked out of.
And Ford Shelley and his family was in there. And obviously I didn't know what was going on until I was able to get the proper documentation to be able to get back into the house, and changed the locks, and the keys, and I was devastated that what I saw firsthand, knowing that the house was gone through...
(CROSSTALK)
SIMPSON: Well, Pol called Howard and -- I was with Howard, and said, "Howard, you have to come to the Bahamas, because you are not going to believe this. You have to see it for yourself." I mean, they took the baby's pictures off the wall of the nursery that Anna painted for her.
ATTEU: ... the nursery that Anna painted for her.
KING: Do we know who do this? Do we know who did it?
SIMPSON: Well, if we don't know who did it, the only people that were there were Ford Shelley, Gaither, and their wives. And I was actually sitting right there when a limousine pulled up; they sat in the car and drove off.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: What are those pink and black ribbons you're wearing, Patrik?
SIMPSON: This is in memory of Anna Nicole.
ATTEU: Of Anna Nicole.
SIMPSON: She loved pink, and black is because we're mourning our friend.
(CROSSTALK)
ATTEU: Well, and it's the same ribbon we actually used for Daniel. And we have the pink pins with the pink head, which is -- Patrik went around the Bahamas looking for...
SIMPSON: They sent me out to look for those.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: We will have both of you and Moe back. We thank you all very much. Pat Simpson, Pol Atteu, and Big Moe.
Up next, two top journalists covering the story in South Florida and the attorney for Howard K. Stern. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Joining us in Plantation, Florida, "Extra" correspondent Carlos Diaz, who's been covering the courtroom developments for us and his wonderful show there, and Jean Casarez of Court TV. And here in Los Angeles is James Neavitt. He is Howard Stern's California attorney.
What's still going on today?
JAMES NEAVITT, HOWARD K. STERN'S ATTORNEY: Well, today, as I understand it, that's in the Florida court, the attorneys in Florida tried to have the court in Florida take jurisdiction over the paternity case, which has already been determined to be in California for a limited purpose.
But the judge in California has been saying, you know, you need to take this case to the Bahamas if you want to deal with the custody of Dannielynn. And after Anna Nicole died, there was a question to whether California really had anybody to enforce the order against.
KING: What do you think?
NEAVITT: The case needs to be in the Bahamas. They need to get...
KING: For who's the father?
NEAVITT: That's who's the father, deal with custody. It all needs to be there. The Bahamian people are capable of dealing with this.
KING: And what do you make of the appeal now by the mother to have the body to Texas?
NEAVITT: Is it going to end? I mean, they had their hearing. It was a very -- everybody saw the hearing, and we're still going to be dealing with this more days. That body needs to get to where it needs to be buried.
KING: Carlos, the attorney for the mother says it's going to be another two weeks at least with the appeal. What do you make of that?
CARLOS DIAZ, "EXTRA" CORRESPONDENT: I find that very surprising. And the fact that she walked down yesterday with Larry Birkhead and Howard K. Stern in a show of unity, and it seemed like everything was fine, and now we're hearing another two weeks, and as Howard K. Stern's attorney put it, delays, delays, delays. They waited until the very end of the day to file this, and now we've got to wait until Monday before the judge could even say anything, and it might be another two weeks. So it is a bunch of delays, when Anna Nicole is still sitting in the medical examiner's office.
KING: Jean, did you think -- did you believe the mother when she said she wants this expedited quickly?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Oh, I'm sure she does. I think she does. But legally what they believe is that another law should apply, another statute in Florida saying that she would be the next of kin.
KING: And, James, how is Howard coping with all of this, ups and downs?
NEAVITT: Well, I talked to Howard last night. He was in a lot better spirits, obviously, you know, but it's still difficult for him. He's under all of this pressure of all these other things that are going on. He hopes to get this over as soon as possible. You saw what was going on in the courthouse. People were being much more cordial with each other, and maybe that might lead to something.
KING: How can he afford all of these attorneys, and hearings, and hopping back and forth? You're not working pro bono?
NEAVITT: No, I don't work pro bono. I get paid for my time. I mean, he has a bill outstanding right now, because -- I've been doing work this month. I send my billing out every month.
But the point is, you know, Howard is a good father. He's trying to get this thing resolved as best as he can. And this case could have been over with in October.
KING: Why don't we do the DNA? Why don't we just do it? You don't have to wait for the Bahamas to do it. You can do it anywhere. He could do it in Florida. Do it.
NEAVITT: Well, the problem with that is, if you take a test, the DNA test, outside the legal system, people are going to start questioning whether it was a legitimate test. There are orders in California...
KING: Go to a DNA lab that's a licensed lab on the street corner.
NEAVITT: The court in California said, we're going to get the testing done. It's going to have to go to the Bahamas to get that done. Florida doesn't have jurisdiction to deal with that, and the Bahamas is going to deal with it.
KING: Well, isn't Larry, isn't he willing to go to the Bahamas to get it done?
NEAVITT: From what I hear, from the rumors today, he's going there. So maybe we'll finally get some resolution. KING: Carlos, do you think we're going to get some resolution?
DIAZ: Well, what I want to know is -- a question to the lawyer there, if Howard K. Stern is the father, why didn't he have the DNA testing done before the battle for Anna Nicole's body? Because if it's proven that he's the father of Dannielynn, it makes the battle for Anna Nicole's body that much easier.
NEAVITT: You know, the issue is that Howard needs to deal with this in the way that his attorneys are telling him. He has to deal with it the legal way. And right now, that's what the legal process requires, is that this go through the courts.
It's not -- Howard is the father. I mean, I assume that a lot of us are fathers, and we have children, and we don't get asked by people to take paternity tests. We're the fathers. And if somebody wants to come in and try to prove they're the father -- we have how many people, four, five people now claiming to be the father? Where do we draw this line?
KING: All of them take the DNA test.
NEAVITT: They can take them. They come take and take them. We'll let them take the DNA test. We said that all along. Come to the Bahamas and take the DNA test. They haven't done it. Howard doesn't have to prove he's the father. Howard is the father.
KING: Well, he can think he's the father.
NEAVITT: He's by law the father.
KING: But he's not the biological father by law?
NEAVITT: I mean, he is the father. Who the biological father is, is an issue that has to be decided.
KING: Because no one can know they're the biological father unless they take a DNA test.
NEAVITT: Well, before they had DNA tests, they had to determine who the biological father was, and they did it on all kinds of evidence.
KING: Jean, do you see a light at the end of this tunnel?
CASAREZ: You know, what you all are talking about right there is Bahamian law versus U.S. law. Because in the Bahamas, he is presumed to be the father, because he was cohabitating with the birth mother, his name is on the birth certificate. That can be rebutted, but he is the father. Here in the U.S., it would be the biological father.
NEAVITT: That's not true. California is the same as the Bahamas. The presumption is who's on the birth certificate. The presumption is who the mother declared to be the father. In California, Howard is the father, also. It can be rebutted. It can be rebutted by DNA. KING: You can be the presumption for now.
NEAVITT: He's the father until somebody comes in and can prove by DNA that they're the father.
KING: Thanks, James, as always, James Neavitt.
Carlos and Jean will be back with us. And when we come back, we'll check in with Susie Brown and Nancy Hass, who are Larry Birkhead's Florida attorneys. Right now, though, let's check in -- he's still here in L.A. I know he's here for the Academy Awards, right? Yes, there he is. Anderson Cooper will host "360" at the top of the hour.
What's up, Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Larry. We're going to have much more on the Anna Nicole Smith case, of course. Plus, the fight for Hollywood, politics, Hillary Clinton versus Barack Obama. Who won the political smackdown?
Also not welcome here, Iraq refugees. Find the welcome mat may be pulled out from under them in the U.S.
And the Taliban coming back. Promises of a violent resurgence in Afghanistan, a look at the unfinished war. That and more just a few minutes away, Larry.
KING: Thanks, Anderson. By the way, Monday night on this program, First Lady Laura Bush will be the very special. And Tuesday night, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, I don't think that I have jurisdiction, but I'm not going to shut the door completely at this point. It appears to be that that's where I'm going, but I don't mind conferring with the California judge, as is called for in complicated cases like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Judge.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it may be two people talking, neither one of which has jurisdiction over the child in the first place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Joining us now from Ft. Lauderdale, Susan Brown. She is Larry Birkhead's Florida attorney, as is Nancy Hass. They both represent Mr. Birkhead in Florida.
Susan, the big question: When are we going to have all of this paternity mess cleared up?
SUSAN BROWN, ATTORNEY FOR LARRY BIRKHEAD: I think Judge Korda is going to rule on our emotion about the DNA testing to occur in Florida or the Bahamas pretty soon, probably Monday.
KING: Nancy, why hasn't a DNA sample been taken from the baby?
NANCY HASS, ATTORNEY FOR LARRY BIRKHEAD: Well, that's a very good question, Larry. We feel that it should have been. We have four California orders. Some of those orders specifically request that the Florida judge enforce the Californian order, which required the DNA testing of Anna Nicole Smith and of the child.
So that's what we'd requested that the Florida court enforce, that the Florida court give deference to the California court's orders, and order the DNA testing of the child, because that is the ultimate question.
KING: Susan, what's it going to take to make it happen?
BROWN: Well, we're hoping that Judge Korda will communicate with the California judge -- for all we know, he may have done that already -- and that the California judge and Judge Korda will determine it's appropriate to enforce the California order to get Dannielynn tested either here or in the Bahamas and to prove our client, Larry Birkhead, is the father of the baby.
KING: What's your evaluation, Nancy, of your client on the stand this week?
HASS: We thought Larry did an excellent job. His testimony was from the heart. He believes, as he said, 110 percent that he is the biological father of Dannielynn. We thought he really gave very credible testimony, in fact, the most credible testimony during that trial.
KING: What did you make, Susan, of what Mr. Neavitt, the attorney for Howard Stern in California, said, that this should really be solved in the Bahamas?
BROWN: We don't agree with that. This child has an American mother who lived in California, an American father, our client, Larry Birkhead. Mr. Stern was an American. In the utmost of bad faith, Mr. Stern and Ms. Smith fled to the Bahamas.
If you heard Ford Shelley's testimony, he said Anna Nicole, when she was pregnant, was looking for a jurisdiction that didn't recognize paternal rights. Their conduct has been outrageous.
All Mr. Stern would need to do is take a DNA test and prove he's the father, if he's so sure he's the father. He's obviously not the father. He's holding himself out as the father based on the fact he's on the birth certificate. He should be taking the test, as our client has offered to from the beginning.
HASS: Yes. Mr. Neavitt's interpretation of the Florida law has been incorrect during the entire course of this proceeding.
KING: Nancy, do you think he will take it?
HASS: Mr. Stern?
KING: Yes.
HASS: No, I think the longer Mr. Stern holds out, the more control he feels that he has over that child. Because the minute it becomes knowledge that our client, Larry Birkhead, is the biological father of that child, Mr. Stern's out of luck, OK? He was riding on the coattails of Anna Nicole Smith, and the child is his link to her fortune. And we believe that his intentions are not pure in the way that our client's intentions are.
KING: Well-said. Thank you, Susan Brown and Nancy Hass, attorneys for Larry Birkhead. And when we come back, predictions about what headline will show up next in this never-ending saga of Anna Nicole Smith. We'll be back with our entertainment journalist and one of court TV's top reporters when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY SEIDLIN, BROWARD COUNTY JUDGE: I want you to help me. That's all I'm doing. I'm searching for the truth. We're trying to connect the dots here, all for one, one for all. There's black, there's white, and there's a lot of gray in this case. Texas, I want you to start helping me, my friend.
We're here. We're just searching. We're searching. My friend was searching to get up that mountain.
I don't want to tell my wife's age, but we were right around -- oh, I'm going to get in trouble for this, folks.
It's not going to be the way I'm doing it. You can bet your buck on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're going to talk more about the trial. Jean Casarez, what do you think -- you're a Court TV journalist -- what do you think Judge Larry's future is, media-wise?
CASAREZ: Well, media-wise, I know everybody is saying that he wants his own talk show. But, you know, Larry, I heard every word the man said in that courtroom, and I looked for the legal issues, I looked what he was trying to do, and I read his entire opinion. And I think this judge is a very good judge.
Yes, he's an individual. But you know what? He was trying to bring unification in that courtroom. He was trying to make people relax so they would work with each other, and they walked out of that courthouse holding hands. And that's because of the judge. KING: Carlos Diaz, in this impossible to predict business, predict. What's the next big story?
DIAZ: The battle now moves to the Bahamas. We're all getting flights down there this weekend. We're all going to the Bahamas. On Monday, there are several things going on.
There's a custody battle in the Bahamas on Monday between Howard K. Stern and Virgie Arthur, and Larry Birkhead is going to throw his hat into the ring there. And there's a difference between the custody battle and the paternity battle. These are two different battles here.
You're also going to have a battle for the house that Anna Nicole Smith was staying in. There's a lot of dispute over whether she owns the house, whether the house was a gift. The person who says he owns the house wants to kick Howard K. Stern out but wants to keep the baby in the house, because that's where the baby is now.
Dannielynn is being taken care of by a nanny there. So we're not going to have, you know, Larry Seidlin around anymore to entertain us, but we may just find that same kind of entertainment in Prince Frederic von Anhalt.
KING: Jean, are you saying we might -- or Carlos saying, are we saying, that you might have a different person with custody than is the real father?
CASAREZ: That's a very good point. And you know what? You could. Because I agree. The headline next week on one front is going to be the courts of the Bahamas. That's another country. Bahamian laws apply. And will they entertain an order demanding the DNA of little baby Dannielynn? Or are they going to say, "We don't want to get involved"?
KING: What do we know, Carlos, about Bahamian family law?
DIAZ: Well, what we have been talking about this entire time is that the man who is with the woman, who is living with the woman when the woman gives birth, is known to be the father, if his name is on the berth certificate. That's why a lot of people are saying that Howard K. Stern wanted to have the baby with Anna Nicole Smith, you know, wanted to have the baby be birthed in the Bahamas.
So, you know, that's where the Bahamian law is going right there, so that's why they're there in the first place. Now, that's up to the courts to decide, both with the custody battle and paternity battle.
KING: But, Jean, they do have allowances in their court for someone to file as the rightful father, right?
CASAREZ: You're exactly right. It is a rebuttable presumption, but I've read the law. And what the law says is, if the father that has physical custody of the child does not want to have a blood test, does not want to do that DNA test, that they can refuse, and the court will then take notice of that. So what does that mean? KING: Well, it certainly bears suspicion, doesn't it, Carlos?
DIAZ: And that's why everyone is saying -- and that's why the judge, Larry Seidlin, screamed, "This is baloney. Get the DNA test." He screamed that in court several times.
CASAREZ: And you know what else he said, Larry? He looked at Howard K. Stern, and he said, "I tried to get you to your knees, but I couldn't do it."
DIAZ: Yes, he made the deal to get him up there by saying he wouldn't adhere -- he would not make him take DNA testing.
KING: And what do you make of the mother's appeal about burial in Texas, Jean?
CASAREZ: Well, I think the appeal is going forward. It's going to be filed next week. I hope it doesn't take a long time. I think that's the other headline, the headline in Florida, that that appeal needs to be determined so the body can then be taken to the Bahamas.
KING: But it could take, Carlos, as we discussed earlier, two weeks?
DIAZ: It could take two weeks. And so you're going to have that battle going on in Florida, whether or not Anna Nicole is going to be moved down to the Bahamas. And then all the while in the Bahamas, you've got the DNA testing, you've got the custody, you've got who's living in the house, and then you've got the toxicology reports that are going to be coming out in the next two weeks, as well.
KING: And you got all those cruise ships docking in Nassau.
CAPLAN: We could all be in Wisconsin.
KING: It's going to be a mish-mosh. Thank you all very much. We'll be seeing you again very soon. Carlos Diaz and Jean Casarez, two terrific reporters, Carlos with "Extra" and Jean with Court TV.
Reminder: On Monday night, when we're back live, the first lady of the United States, Laura Bush will be our guest. And Tuesday night, Nancy Pelosi, the first lady speaker of the House, madam speaker. That's all next week.
Coming up right now is Anderson Cooper. He's here in L.A. He hosts "AC 360." And what's up tonight, Anderson?
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