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Lou Dobbs This Week
United Nations Failure with Iran; Battle between Cheney and Pelosi; North American Union; Boycott Bank of America; Adults Source of Alcohol for Teens; Roman Catholic Church Illegal Alien Debate
Aired February 24, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Going to get to Lou in just a minute, but we've got some breaking news coming out of Arkansas. Let's go to Jacqui to see what is going on there. You got an update -- Jacqui.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yeah, we've got some more tornado damage to report, Rick. This is in Arkansas County, in southern parts of the county, right in this area here, we have many reports of damage in the area from a tornado passing near the post office. And please forgive me on the pronunciation of this. It is either Tickner or Tichner, it's t-i-c-h-n-o-r. So, we do have more reports of tornado damage. We also had some in Dumas, that was a little bit earlier, over in this area where we had some damage in town and possible injuries which haven't been confirmed yet.
So, as we continue to get information, we will break in as necessary. The threat of tornados, still very high tonight and I'm very concerned about Memphis, here, in the next couple of hours as these strong storms move on through.
We'll break in as necessary now to Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, ambiguity and confusion dominating U.S. foreign policy, the Bush administration struggling to prevent Iran from manufacturing nuclear weapons and interfering in Iraq. We'll have that special report from the White House.
And was there a government conspiracy to prevent two U.S. Border Patrol agents from receiving a fair trial after they shot and wounded a Mexican illegal alien drug smuggler who was later given immunity to testify against those agents.
Two leading congressmen, Dana Rohrabacher and John Culbertson join me. They say there's been a complete miscarriage of justice in this case. They're among my guests here tonight, all that and more straight ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK. News, debate, and opinion for Saturday February 24. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Good evening everybody, the United States tonight faces a dangerous new challenge from Iran. Iran failed to meet a United Nations' deadline to suspend its nuclear weapons program. The Iranian president says Iran must not show weakness, as he put it, to the rest of the world. The United States says it is seeking a diplomatic solution to this crisis. The Bush administration saying it has not intention of attacking Iran.
Elaine Quijano reports from the White House -- Elaine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And the issue of Iran, Lou, has been a very delicate balance for the Bush administration. President Bush, on the one hand, has continued to insist that the United States is not laying the ground work for war with Iran. At the same time, Vice President Dick Cheney, in comments this past week, reiterated that the United States is not taking any options off the table, including military options.
Now what has this foreign policy yielded? Iran has continued to openly defy the United Nations, continuing as reported earlier this week, with its nuclear activities. Now Vice President Cheney made his remarks while on a stop in Australia, which under the leadership of Prime Minister John Howard, has been a staunch U.S. ally in the war on terrorism. He also talked about another foreign policy headache for the Bush administration and that is North Korea.
Conservatives have blasted the White House over its agreement with North Korea saying it effectively awards the North Koreans for bad behavior. But the vice president insists the United States is not blind to the questions of whether North Korea will in fact fully cooperate.
DICK CHENEY, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We go into this deal with our eyes open. In light of North Korea's missile tests last July, its nuclear tests in October, and its record of proliferation and human rights aabuses, the regime in Pyongyang has much to prove. Yet, this agreement represents a first hopeful step towards a better future for the North Korean people.
QUIJANO: But the agreement, as well, illustrates the delicate balance that the United States is trying to strike when it comes to another country, China. The vice president praising China's role in this North Korea agreement as constructive at the same time expressing concerns over China's military buildup -- Lou.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Elaine Quijano from the White House.
Iranian president Ahmadinejad said Iran must stand up to the rest of the world. Ahmadinejad that declared Iran's enemies will retreat in the face of what he termed "Iranian resistance." Ahmadinejad, demonstrating once again he believes there can be no compromise with the United States and the rest of the world in what is now an escalating nuclear confrontation. The International Atomic Energy Agency said Iran is actually accelerating, not slowing, its nuclear program. The United Nations appear incapable of taking any decisive action that would force Iran to suspend its nuclear activities. That's partly because Russia and China have close economic and military ties with Iran.
Kitty Pilgrim report now on the United Nations failure to deal with the Iranian question.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iran completely ignored the U.N.
TOM CASEY, STATE DEPT SPOKESMAN: It's very clear that the -- none of the requirements of the resolution have been met.
PILGRIM: Now the U.S. is consulting with allies before deciding what to do next, but the U.S. has been held hostage to the glacial U.N. process and tepid European negotiations with Iran. And after three years, the IAEA, the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency, has achieved nothing and now suggests a time-out for more talks.
PETER BROOKES, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Time is on Iran's side. Unless you're able to prevent them from getting the materials they need, or the financing they need to move this program down the road, that time is on their side and one morning we'll wake up and Iran will have tested a nuclear weapon.
PILGRIM: The U.N. process is bogged down by Russia and China. They already have deep economic interests in Iran and are even now rushing through billion dollar energy and arms deals with Iran.
DANIELLE PLETKA, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INST: We're really going to have to test our allies and see whether or not they're willing to go outside the U.N. framework and actually agree to tighten up sanctions on the Iranians without the Russians and the Chinese.
PILGRIM: But Europeans also have extensive business and trade ties with Iran.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
It really looks like it's going to be talk and even more talk going forward. Secretary Rice says the U.S. is probably going to press for another U.N. resolution, even though the last one didn't work and U.S. allies want to keep negotiating with Iran as Peter Brookes and others say, Lou, time is on Iran's side.
DOBBS: And what does that mean? In point of fact, this administration has sent all sorts of mixed signals. Its policy toward Iran, saying, first, all options are on the table and then there is no way in the world, a number of officials including the president saying there would be no attack against Iran. Now, Vice President Cheney saying, all options are on the table again. This is about as confusing a set of signals that is administration, this government, could send.
PILGRIM: It certainly has been and during that time, Iran gains time to develop their program, so every time the policy shifts, there is an advantage to the Iranians.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.
U.S. military commanders in Iraq now fear insurgents will carry out more chlorine bomb attacks in the days ahead. Over the past week, insurgents killed least 12 Iraqis in two chlorine bomb attacks. More than 200 people were wounded. Chlorine gas causes breathing problems, burning, nausea, and chlorine was first used as a weapon in World War I by the German army. There are concerns that chlorine gas could now be used against our troops in Iraq.
The political argument over the war in Iraq has sparked a fierce verbal battle between Vice President Dick Cheney and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. The vice president said top Democrats are "encouraging terrorists with their proposals on Iraq." Speaker Pelosi said President Bush should repudiate the vice president's remarks. Andrea Koppel has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The vice president threw the first punch.
CHENEY: I think, in fact, if we were to do what Speaker Pelosi and Congressman Murtha are suggesting, all we'll do is validate the al Qaeda strategy. The al Qaeda strategy is to break the will of the American people.
KOPPEL: In an interview ABC News during a swing through Asia this week, Mr. Cheney criticized a plan by Pennsylvania Democrat John Murtha to condition future funds for the war in Iraq on adequate traing and equipment for U.S. troops. He also took a direct swipe at Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
CHENEY: I think to do what Nancy Pelosi is suggesting, than she's made it very clear on many occasions that she in fact wants to get out, that that's exactly the wrong medicine, that's the wrong course of action, it will do nothing but encourage the terrorists.
KOPPEL: Pelosi punched back.
NANCY PELOSI, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The vice president's statements are beneath the dignity of the debate that we are engaged in. They're a disservice to men and women in uniform who we all support.
KOPPEL: Pelosi tried to reach President Bush by phone Wednesday to complain, but got his chief of staff instead. A White House spokeswoman defended the vice president saying Cheney's remarks were "absolutely not out of line," adding the vice president was not in any way questioning anyone's patriotism, he was questioning the strategy. Cheney's dig at Pelosi and Murtha, part of an aggressive Republican campaign to lay the groundwork for the next battle with Democrats over funding the war. The GOP accusing Democrats of advocating what Republicans call a "slow-bleed policy" to restrict supplies and reinforcements for American combat troops.
(on camera): But Democrats point out the term "slow-bleed" was coined by a reporter and later picked up by Republicans who are trying to use it as a political weapon.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Still ahead, the Bush administration moving to create a North American union without the consent of Congress or voters or you. We'll have the special report.
Also, rising outrage over some U.S. bank efforts to offer credit cards and other financial services to illegal aliens.
Cardinal Roger Mahoney in the Catholic Church can't stop interfering in the illegal immigration crisis and our lack of border security. We'll have that story and I'll have a few words for the good cardinal.
Stay with us for all of that and more straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New concerns tonight about moves toward what some are calling a North American union. A number of high level government meetings are taking place in Mexico to discuss North American integration of Mexico, the United States, and Canada. More high level meetings are scheduled.
It is an aggressive silent agenda proposed at the highest levels of our government without congressional oversight and certainly without public knowledge. Lisa Sylvester reports on this latest attack on this nation's sovereignty.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A caravan of cars travels along the Arizona Desert. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff was visiting the U.S.-Mexican border. Last week he was in Mexico City. Commerce secretary Carlos Gutierrez visited Mexico February 1, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales January 11, and President Bush himself will travel there next month. The high level meetings are to advance North American integration, also known as the Security Prosperity Partnership.
JIM EDWARDS, NUMBERS USA: There are several ways it could go. One is modeled after the E.U., one is modeled after, sort of, an economic community. It is beyond the scope of just a trade -- free trade zone which we fairly well have already with those two countries. SYLVESTER: This partnership is being driven by the U.S. business community which envisions ships from China docking in Mexico instead of California. Mexican truck drivers transporting cargo on a NAFTA superhighway, all the way to Canada. A cornerstone of this model is a guest worker immigration program that relaxes U.S. borders. Critics say the plan would greatly benefit Mexico, but could mean the loss of American jobs and increase in social costs to U.S. taxpayers.
ROBERT RECTOR, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The reality is that last year they came close to passing a bill which would have allowed close to 100 million immigrants into the country, most of them low skilled over the next 20 years. That will in fact bankrupt the United States.
SYLVESTER: Those concerned with integrating the economy's point to the disparities. The GDP per capita is $43,500. Canada $35,200, Mexico only $10,600. The average adult in the United States has 12 years of education, in Canada, 11.5 years, in Mexico, only a little over seven years of schooling.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
This week another round of top level meetings in Canada. Secretary Michael Chertoff, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez meeting with their Canadian and Mexican counterparts. All the press releases say the focus is on providing for the free flow of trade, helping secure borders, and keeping the U.S. competitive.
But Lou, what they're really talking about is this new economic integration.
DOBBS: This is a bold, if stealthy, approach to this integration. But what authority do these countries, these governments right now, presume that they're acting on?
SYLVESTER: They are looking back to NAFTA to say that they've got -- that essentially these provisions were written into NAFTA and all they are doing is following through on this. Obviously Congress might want to have a say here, though, Lou.
DOBBS: Absolutely. But this Congress, much like the last, so far doing nothing. Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
There is rising consumer outrage tonight over Bank of America's decision to give credit cards to illegal aliens. Bank of America is now the target of an organized national boycott. Thousands of customers are pulling money from Bank of America and other banks catering to illegal aliens. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bank of America chairman Kenneth Lewis says he nose many customers are outraged by his company's pilot Program offering credit cards to illegal aliens. But in a "Wall Street journal" commentary, Lewis writes, "After a week of listening to our customers, we have made a decision. We will continue our card marketing pilot program in the Los Angeles market. We know some will find this unacceptable."
Clearly, for example, the political action committee Americans for Legal Immigration has launched a boycott of Bank of America.
WILLIAM GHEEN, PRESIDENT ALIPAC: It's a sense of rage, and a sense of dismay, especially since Bank of America answered and said they didn't really care what the American public thought about this. They're going to continue giving the credit cards and mortgages to illegal aliens because they feel that they're justified under the law.
WIAN: ALIPAC has also started a Web site listing nearly 500 banks that either cater to illegal aliens by accepting Mexico's matricula consular I.D. card or don't. The group says the list is a work in progress, is not comprehensive, and may not be completely accurate, but it is intended to encourage consumers to pull their accounts from banks doing business with illegal aliens.
Also, some House Republicans are calling for a congressional investigation into Bank of America's illegal alien credit card business.
REP MARSHA BLACKBURN (R), TENNESSEE: We look forward to going ahead and beginning some hearings on that so that we can have people come in, deliver their testimony under oath, question them under oath, and find out exactly how the banks are circumventing the law and then go in and plug that loophole.
WIAN: Bank of America insists its business practices are legal, opponents say it could be violating laws prohibiting the aiding and abetting of illegal aliens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Bank of America says the boycott has had no impact on its business, but ALIPAC says it heard from thousands of customers who have pulled their accounts from B of A and other banks -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian, reporting from Los Angeles.
Up next here, our special report, "The War Within." You may be shocked to learn who is supplying alcohol to underaged drinkers all around the country. And new hopes for two imprisoned former Border Patrol agents, federal prosecutor withheld key evidence in that case. I'll talking with two outraged congressmen supporting Romos and Compean.
And yet again, the Catholic Church involving itself in the debate over amnesty for illegal aliens and border security. Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahoney is at it again. I'll have a few words for the cardinal on his idea of Lent and sacrifice later in this broadcast. Stay with us for that and a great deal more, straight ahead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our special report "The War Within," now. Looking that this country's battle over -- with both drug and alcohol abuse and addiction. Each day an estimated 13,000 of our children and our teenagers take their first drink. Parents and adult family and friends are most often the source of that drink. Christine Romans takes a look now at the issue of parental responsibility for underage drinking.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jeff Levy says parents need to wake up.
JEFF LEVY, CONCERNED PARENT: I also meet a lot of parents that want to be friends with their kids. They don't want to be the bad guy. My problem there is that parents need to be parents.
ROMANS: His teenage son, Jonathan, drunk and party hopping, was killed in a drunk driving accident.
LEVY: We didn't make a big issue out of alcohol. Hey, you know, all the kids drink a little bit. But, boy, if it is drugs, we get all serious. The problem is that alcohol kills many more times the number of kids than all the other drugs combined.
ROMANS: He now pushes for parental accountability laws. An industry group dedicated to curbing underaged drinking estimates 65 percent of teen drinkers get their booze from adults.
RALPH BLACKMAN, THE CENTURY COUNCIL: There are parents out across the country who believe that if they can, for instance, control the environment, that they can make underaged drinking something that turns out to be safe. We, in fact, think that that is the absolute wrong message to send to young people.
ROMANS: A 2003 study by the National Academies of Science called for better supervision from parents, finding underaged drinking costs society $53 billion a year from fatal car wrecks and violent crime. Meanwhile there is a mish-mash of confusing state laws.
In these states, it is illegal under any circumstances to provide alcohol to your kids. In these states, parents can provide alcohol as long as it is in their own home. And here, a parent can give their teen a drink at home, in a restaurant, or at a party.
At the same time, several states have new laws on the books revoking the driver's license of adults who provide liquor to underage drinkers. And hundreds of cities are passing so called "social host laws," giving police the power to enter private homes and break up drinking parties, even fining the parent.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Many states already have laws like this on the books, but more and more communities now are cracking down themselves on the parents who are providing alcohol to teens and their friends in their own homes. The concern really is that parents are being either complicit in or clueless about their kids drinking in junior high and high school and that's actually fostering some self-destructive behavior as those children get older.
DOBBS: Raising teenagers is tough enough without parents who are trying to be cool and hip and thinking they're doing the right thing.
ROMANS: Exactly right and experts say you to be strong. You have to be a parent, not a friend when your kid is 12, 13, 14, 15 years old.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you. Christine Romans.
Up next, a frank and full discussion with the head of an advocacy group insisting there's no such thing as a war on our middle class.
And troubling new developments in the case of those two Border Patrol agents sent to prison for doing their jobs, on the testimony of a drug dealer. Two leading lawmakers, Congressman Dana Rohrabacher and Congressman John Culbertson say there's been a complete miscarriage of justice. They want an investigation. And they want Ramos and Compean out of jail pending appeal.
The catholic church can't resist temptation even during Lent. The emtemptation to be involved in secular politic and illegal immigration cris and border security. I'll be reserving a few choice words for the good cardinal Mahoney. Onfidence onhe golf course
The Roman Catholic Church just can't resist temptation, even during Lent. The temptation to become involved in secular politics and our illegal immigration crisis and border security. I'm reserving a few choice words for the good Cardinal Mahoney.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK, news, debate, and opinion. Here again, Lou Dobbs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The Roman Catholic Church is aggressively inserting itself into the national debate over amnesty for illegal aliens. Church leaders in southern California during Ash Wednesday's services called for Catholics to commit themselves to, "immigration reform."
In Los Angeles, Cardinal Roger Mahoney told parishioners "they are innocents impact by an unjust system that has failed and will continue to fail them and our society until true comprehensive reform is passed by Congress and the president."
Another California bishop called for his parishioners to dedicate a day of fasting during Lent to immigration reform and also calling for parishioners to send cards to fill them out and send them to their congressmen urging comprehensive immigration reform.
Well, the good Cardinal Mahoney is at it again. A pious man, I'm sure, but his heart obviously rests with those who violate American borders and laws and not with law abiding citizens of this great nation which, by the way, cardinal, permits you the freedom to put interest, your interests in filling pews with good Catholics who are here illegally ahead of the laws of this land, the common good and our national interests.
Now, it's interesting that the good cardinal and his fellow enthusiasts for the illegal of Latin America, Bishop Jaime Soto say Lent is the appropriate time for their parishioners of Los Angeles to fill out cards and send them to Congress calling for immigration reform.
Now to me, that just seems a little bit outside the spirit of the church and Lent itself. It seems actually a bit secular, in fact. Lent is, after all, a time for Catholics to sacrifice. But these two Catholic leaders in southern California apparently think sacrifice should be born by all American citizens of every and no faith.
The good cardinal and bishop seem to be enthusiastic about the idea of all of us giving up our national sovereignty for Lent. Now how's that for sacrifice?
Well, new developments this week in the case of imprisoned former Border Patrol agent Jose Compean and Ignacio Ramos. Both are serving lengthy prison terms for shooting and wounding a illegal alien drug smuggler.
One of the defense attorneys now says government prosecutors failed to disclose a key document that could have undermined the government's entire case. I talked with two congressmen who say there is a conspiracy by the Bush administration and -- to subvert the will of the American people, and to destroy the sovereignty of our borders.
I asked Congressman Dana Rohrabacher and John Culbertson if this new evidence is enough for a new trial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. JOHN CULBERSON, (R) TX: Lou, I think it will certainly help these agents get a new trial. They deserve, first of all, of course, to be pardoned. I hope everyone listening will contact the White House and urge that they be pardoned for the sake of national security but this document which you quite correctly point out is new evidence because it shows there were at least nine other Border Patrol agents that were aware of the failure to report the shooting incident and the U.S. Attorney singled out Compean and Ramos for prosecution and it appears at the request of the Mexican government which adds to the outrage of this case.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER, (R) CA: What we have is the supervisorial level of Border Patrol agents have been intimidated and threatened that either they testified against Ramos or Compean that they themselves would be prosecuted. And this is really important to the defense's case because the defense's position is it wasn't Ramos and Compean's responsibility to tell -- or to discuss this or to make the report. It was their supervisors who were supposed to make the report. And thus they were not guilty of what they have been charged.
DOBBS: The idea that these transcripts of the trial took just about 11 months to be released, there is absolutely no explanation forthcoming from the Justice Department, or the U.S. Attorney's Office. The fact that the inspector general lied to the United States Congress and misrepresented the evidence throughout here, at what point is there sufficient outrage on Capitol Hill to begin to change the outcome here?
ROHRBACHER: We're trying our best. Dianne Feinstein, our senator here in California, obviously is the first Democrat to step forward. And now with the Democrats in charge, I have made an official request from my subcommittee chairman, the committee chairman, and our subcommittee is oversight investigation on International Relations, to hold a hearing into this issue.
But now the democrats are in charge. There only has been about 100 Republicans that have been deeply involved with trying to do their best in this case. But almost -- Dianne Feinstein is the only Democrat who stepped forward at this time.
CULBERSON: Lou?
DOBBS: Go ahead, congressman.
CULBERSON: Lou, I was going to say quickly, we had interest from Democrats in Texas who are outraged by this. Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee from Houston understands what an outrage this is. Congressman Ciro Rodriguez from West Texas is outraged, especially about the Edwards County deputy sheriff, who was also prosecuted by Johnny Sutton, for shooting at a smuggler who almost ran him down as well.
The pattern here is clear. It looks like the Mexican government, Lou, has been able to request and get prosecution of U.S. law enforcement agents on the border for doing their job. And I have already requested and will continue to press for a full disclosure of how extensive that agreement between Mexico and the Department of Justice is.
DOBBS: Congressman Rohrabacher, what is the reaction among your constituents? Are they supportive of your position? Are they outraged at what is happening to these two Border Patrol agents? The prosecution, the investigation and the fact that Dianne Feinstein, Senator Feinstein is the only Democrat to join you Republicans in calling for an investigation, a pardon if you will, as well in Congress, or by the president.
ROHRABACHER: Well, let me note Diane Watson stopped me last week and suggested she too would get involved in this. So what we have got is a cracking on the Democrat side. They're starting to come over because they're seeing the overwhelming support of the American people. I get stopped when I go shopping in the supermarket. I get stopped all the time from people who are telling me that they're grateful to me. But actually, Lou, we're grateful to you and to the other people in the news media because you're part of this democratic process. And this shows you how important it is, without you and the other talk radio show people, for example, the word would never get out and those of us in Congress, who are trying -- who are patriotic, trying to protect these people who have protected us, we wouldn't be able to get the word out and have any chance when we're up against the White House.
DOBBS: Let me show -- show all of our audience and you the comments of attorney general Alberto Gonzales this morning in a radio interview on the Christian Broadcasting Network. This is what he said. "These individuals were convicted in a court of law by their peers. These are individuals who were not doing their jobs. It is not part of their job to shoot an unarmed man from behind. It is not part of their job to conspire to conceal what they did. It is not part of their job to like about what they did, to hide it from their superiors. That's why these individuals were convicted."
I count at least four highly disputable statements by the attorney general in that statement. What is your reaction, Congressman Culberson?
CULBERSON: The attorney general is simply - the attorney general is not aware, I think, of all the circumstances involved in this case because the supervisor was on the scene. The supervisor there was six other agents. They all agreed that they would pick up the shell casings and not report this.
At most these officers should have been suspended, perhaps, for three days or a week, and maybe sent some time down the shooting range so they could be better shots. But the attorney general, also, I think fails to point out that the judge hid critical information from the jury.
The jury was not made aware of how dangerous the border is, of the fact this guy always carried a gun with him. Of all the other shootings on the border, in fact, Lou, every time the defense referred to the border, the defense lawyers had to say the "allegedly dangerous border" so the jury thought these guys were shooting at an unarmed man fleeing from them like he's an Eagle Scout.
ROHRABACHER: Just so you know, at this point, people should understand that when they agreed not report this, it wasn't to cover up a crime, they didn't think that they had hit this guy. He got across the border so if they would have reported the incident it would have taken five hours of their own time that they would have to fill out massive paperwork, make all kinds of reports so they all agreed, well, we'll just close this book on this because nothing is going come of this.
It was basically -- they didn't want to use their spare time for five hours worth of paperwork and this attorney general has turned that into a crime, into a felony, and these two guys are now languishing in prison.
DOBBS: And, to be clear, as Congressman Culberson pointed out, as Congressman Rohrbacher has. If you want to make your views on this case, the case of border agents, Border Patrol agents Compean and Ramos clear to your elected representative, please go to our Web site. There are directions there to guide you to your appropriate congressman and senator where you can express your views and have them known.
And that's at loudobbs.com. Congressman Rohrabacher, Congressman Culberson, we thank you very much for being here, for all you are doing on behalf of justice.
ROHRABACHER: Well, we're patriots and unless patriots step forward this country is going to go in the wrong direction and that's what has been happening.
CULBERSON: You bet, Lou. We're proud of you, Lou. Keep shining sunlight on this case. And we're going to get to the bottom of it. Only way we're going to protect this border and win the war on terrorists is to secure that southern border. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, gentlemen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, Jonathan Cowan of Third Way, a progressive think tank, joins me. He's says America's middle class has never had it better. I think he's wrong. We'll be discussing that.
And the Democrats are at war among themselves. The campaigns of Senators Obama and Clinton trading punches over support from Hollywood. Our distinguished panel of political analysts give us their perspective. We'll be examining the issues of the week and more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Jonathan Cowan is president of the Third Way, a think tank for progressives. He says there is no war against our middle class. In fact, he says our middle class has never had it better.
His group's new report is entitled "The New Rules Economy" and claims as well, by the way, quote, "Neo-populism is premised on the myths of a failing middle class, a declining America and omnipotent corporations."
I asked Jonathan if he thought corporations dominated the political process in the country, both the electoral and the legislative.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN COWAN, PRESIDENT, THIRD WAY: Can I make a broader point and then answer your question? DOBBS: Well, sure. How about doing it this way. You answer my question and then make your broader point.
COWAN: You got it. I think corporations play a significant role in American politics. But I do not think that they are the evil ill- intended entities that you think they are.
DOBBS: Evil is not a word I would use.
I just asked you -- simple question, do you believe corporate America dominates our political system?
COWAN: Sure. We're a capitalist economy and I think that - And I think that's a good thing.
DOBBS: Weren't we 40 years ago?
COWAN: Can I make my ...
DOBBS: Please.
COWAN: Look, we agree with you very strongly that the middle class is struggling, that there is a lot of middle class anxiety. No question about that. Where we disagree with you is we do not think there say war on the middle class, that corporations are waging a war on the middle class.
We think the middle class is struggling because everything in the world has changed. Technology has changed, the global economy has changed and we can't wind the clock back to the 1950s to solve those problems. That's where we disagree with you.
DOBBS: So it seems to me you're saying the middle class is filled with a bunch of wussies who are overly anxious about their failed perceptive powers, that the fact that million of American middle class jobs have been outsourced by corporate America, that we have lost 3.3. million manufacturing jobs over the last six years is really no basis for concern, the fact that in point of fact over those six years we have actually seen wages decline, median wages decline in this country, the fact that working people in this country has have a smaller share of the national income than at anytime since 1929 and that corporate American has a larger share than in anytime in 50 years is simply, oh, by the way, with soaring health care costs, with soaring college tuition costs, with you know, those little concerns that they're somehow confused about what is happening to them.
COWAN: If you look at our report ...
DOBBS: I did. I read it entirely.
COWAN: We don't use the word wussy anywhere.
DOBBS: I do give you credit for that.
COWAN: And we don't think the middle class are wussies. We think the middle class is struggling and they are facing a lot of anxiety. The question is why and what do you do about it? Some things we think you should do that would address some of the issue you raised are middle class families often have two earners now. So you have got to have family friendly work places. People need a college degree. You've got to make sure they can afford it. People change jobs. They don't sit at General Motors for their entire career, they change jobs. Pensions and health care have to be portable.
Those are the kinds of things we got have to do rather than wishing ...
DOBBS: I would go with that.
COWAN: Rather than wishing - see, we can agree. Rather than wishing it were 1950, America dominated the entire ...
DOBBS: (inaudible) 1950. And let's be clear ...
COWAN: I think a lot of neo-populists do.
DOBBS: Well, I'm not a neo-populist. I'm an independent ...
COWAN: You're an independent populist. I watch the show.
DOBBS: And the fact of the matter is, it is 2007, and I hear apologia for corporate America and its idiotic trade policies. It sounds to me suspiciously like the Democratic Leadership Council and the third way are afraid that people are waking up to the fact there is more to this country than capitalism because we have been a capitalist country for 200 years.
But there was a time that the rights of citizens and the fundamental value of this country, equality, was preeminent in our political discussion. It no longer is. Commerce and efficiency of trade, which is absurd.
COWAN: We think that there are conservatives who advocate free market, take care of everything, leave the middle class on their own.
DOBBS: Yeah. Mr. Market is really clever.
COWAN: They're out of this debate. Neo-populists or independent populists believe in solutions like stopping free trade.
DOBBS: Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, partner. You threw in independent populist.
COWAN: Neo-populists.
DOBBS: Let me be clear. I believe in increasing exports. I also believe in taking away trade promotion authority from this president, particularly this president, and all presidents and having Congress fulfill its constitutional responsibility in terms of international commerce.
COWAN: But, Lou, we believe, and I think you can agree with this, the world changed radically. DOBBS: Jesus. Of course I believe that.
COWAN: The world changed radically.
DOBBS: But it was changing 100 years ago, 200 years ago.
COWAN: What are we going to do for the middle class. And if you believe - and I'm not saying you do. But if one believes that the middle class is on the verge of poverty and about to fall into poverty, you'll design the wrong solutions. If you believe that the middle class, let's say two earner family between 25 and age 60, is making about $80,000 a year as the median, if you believe that that is what they're making, you understand what they're struggling with, you can then design solutions that will work for them.
DOBBS: Let me design a solution for you, all right? Let's start with honesty. More than half the people in this country make less than $35,000 a year. The middle class in this country is confronting a public education system which is a great equalizer in this system.
COWAN: Can we stop on your first step?
DOBBS: Not until I finish my sentence. I didn't interrupt you on any sentence, did I?
COWAN: You didn't. OK.
DOBBS: The great equalizer in our society, public education. Corporate America is quite content and so have both the Democratic and Republican Parties been content to allow it to fail. This is categorically unfair. It is absolutely wrong-headed in 2007.
Has nothing to do with rolling time back. It has everything to do with confronting the future. Which is being endangered by people who don't look at the reality, the empirical independent nonpartisan truth of the time in which we live.
COWAN: Couldn't agree with you more on education. The system does not serve the middle class well. And it has got to be changed regardless of ideology. However ...
DOBBS: I am with you on that one.
COWAN: However ...
DOBBS: Quickly.
COWAN: However, truth about the state of the middle class we think is a little more complex than some would make it.
DOBBS: OK. Well, I make it as being highly unfair and put the responsibility upon all of us but predominantly on the corporate America that dominates our political system with indifference to the interests of the middle class. Come back soon. Jonathan Cowan.
COWAN: Love to. (END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Up next, in their fight to take over the White House, the Democrats are fighting one another. Senators Obama and Clinton battling over support from Hollywood.
Errol Louis, Hank Sheinkopf, Mark Halperin join us. Our political round table coming up next. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best political analysts in the country. Columnist, "New York Daily News," and a member of the editorial board, Errol Louis. Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf, political director, ABC News, Mark Halperin. Good to have you all here.
Let's start first with you, Hank. The Democrats look like they want to roll back authority for the war altogether or at least a large measure of them.
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Look, it is constitutional crisis. It also talks about what the American public wants. Politicians tend in most cases if they're smart and just even if they're not so smart to follow public opinion. Public opinion here is pretty clear. End the war, bring it to conclusion, do something about it and they want the authority to do it. That's why they're elected and that's why they took the Congress back, or one of the major reasons certainly.
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": And instead of doing this nonbonding stuff, they're stepping it up a notch which will have some clarifying effects. There are some people who have been trying to play it both ways. It is time, at this point, to make some decisions.
DOBBS: I'm surprised at the reaction of the audience to this show a bit. Because they are -- the Democrats amongst those responding are furious that the Democrats are using nonbinding as a way to move ahead. They ...
LOUIS: It is infuriating. If it is that important, if this is about lives, if this is about America's place in the world, if this is about changing our foreign policy, you need to go ahead and do it. Not just take a sophisticated poll. We have done all the polling already.
MARK HALPERIN, POLITICAL DIRECTOR, ABC NEWS: But they don't have the votes to do it. I think you're seeing a pretty sophisticated approach from Nancy Pelosi in the House, Harry Reid in the Senate. They're saying what we want to do is end the war. We have got to be realistic about it. Trying to pass things that don't have 60 votes, which is what it takes in the Senate, trying to pass things the president won't - that the president is going to veto, that's not going to end the war.
DOBBS: And with that as the backdrop, we have Senators Obama and Clinton going at each other. I think far heavily than anyone would have ever expected this early. Why is that?
HALPERIN: It is intense early for a lot of reasons. I think the main reason is this is an open White House race. We haven't had one of those in a while. And these candidates know on the Democratic side that right now the winner of the Democratic nomination is the front- runner to be the next president of the United States. They see that as a big competitive prize and they're engaged to fight on it today. They're in the going to wait until later in the year.
DOBBS: Geffen is the one who -- he's one who really kicked this ball over and got it rolling.
LOUIS: Sure did.
DOBBS: The motivation?
LOUIS: I think, first of all, he is a player, he wants to be a player in politics as well as in Hollywood. This is somebody who among other things we should not forget has his pulse on the popular mood.
He got very rich figuring out what it is Americans do or don't want to watch or listen to or think about. And he's saying that the Clinton days are over. And he's going to switch to Obama. So he could be wrong about that. But it is a very powerful statement. And it stirred up a storm.
DOBBS: He could be wrong about it. Let's see what he did say, David Geffen. He said, "Not since the Vietnam War has there been this level of disappointment in the behavior of America throughout the world. And I don't think that another incredibly polarizing figure, no matter how smart she is and no matter how ambitious she is -- and God knows, is there anybody more ambitious than Hillary Clinton? - can bring the country together."
Now, as the saying goes, as an independent populist, I don't have a dog in this hunt. But I have to say to you, that is pointedly, calculatedly vicious.
SHEINKOPF: Over the top and last time I looked, David Geffen's name was not on the ballot any place in America.
My other hunch is that in a general election, all things being equal if Hollywood is attacking you, not such a bad thing in the heartland of this country where this election will be won or lost.
HALPERIN: Hillary Clinton has three big problems. She needs to show joy on the campaign trail. She needs to get over the Iraq issue. And she needs to convince people she can be a unifying figure. It's not so much about electability I think for a lot of Democrats like David Geffen. They want a president who with bring the country together. She has got to prove she can. David Geffen, ironically, by saying this, creates a division and makes it harder for her to prove that.
LOUIS: And there is a tussle going on that is kind of behind the scenes. They're both fighting for the black vote, meaning specifically the black vote in South Carolina, the early primary state. And you've got Obama, a little bit behind the curve. He's been trying to meet people, he's been trying to sort of pull some people to his side. He's had some success. I know for a fact that that has made the Clinton team a little bit uneasy.
So they're already kind of fighting behind the scenes. This is the first to -- sign of it bursting out into the open.
DOBBS: I think it is almost funny when people start talking, everybody is talking this way, if the fight for the quote unquote black vote is between Obama and Clinton, as if there are no other candidates out there interested in ...
LOUIS: I wouldn't rule out John Edwards.
DOBBS: ... getting every one of those votes they possibly can. We're going to be right back with our panel in just a moment. And when I say right back, I mean right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back with our panel now. And Hank, I want to turn to you. This administration has said over the past 60 days, that all options are on the table. They have been very threatening toward Iran. They have at same time then, they, their administration and the leading generals have said there will be no conflict or war with Iran. And now, Vice President Cheney says all options are on the table. Does this administration have any idea of what it wants to do?
SHEINKOPF: Being led into a potential nuclear threat by the Katzenjammer Kids should not make America feel comfortable at night. Today's "New York Times," Tom Friedman, this past Friday actually had an important story, talked about foreign policy as catch-up. They're constantly catching up, there is no forward plan.
There is a piece this week in the "New York Review Books", similar kind of argument, Galbraith, good name, smart guy, says look, internationalism is the way to get there. These guys are not capable.
DOBBS: I have to say -- I'm a little tired of the -- if you will the pundits on this because they're criticizing but offer nothing -- whether it is internationalism, whether it's diplomacy, there is nothing concrete or substantive in those recommendations. Your thoughts?
LOUIS: Absolutely. You got -- you a general theme of diplomacy. But what points should be on the table? That's what people are not talking about.
I think when you hear that, you're going to have some kind of diplomatic maneuver. What people have to say right behind that, first question needs to be what are the points that are on the table? What is the process, how long is it going to take? How and when do we get the threat of nuclear destruction off the table? That's what the real question is. Because diplomacy is permanent. You'll talk, you won't talk, you'll talk nicely, you'll talk not so nicely.
DOBBS: The fact that this administration -- If it is ambiguity, if it is continuing contradiction, where -- by design, I might -- I might understand. It obviously is not.
HALPERIN: It is a little chaotic. Foreign policy can be chaotic. Look at the axis of evil, Iraq, military invasion, that's really off the table at this point despite that they say. They don't have right the North Korea option because North koreans were desperate for a deal. Iranians are not.
They need another option. I'm not sure they're not just buying time whether it is by design or not. If the president is able to solve this by the end of his term this interlude will be forgotten but right now you are right. The chaos is not helpful.
DOBBS: And the Republicans. Mitt Romney is now in the mix. We have a two-person -- three-person, four-person race, depending how you want to cut it. Are the Republicans defining themselves any better than the Democrats?
SHEINKOPF: They're having similar problems. The trick for them is they have got a smaller part of the population to focus on and they need to do that quickly but don't count out John McCain, Rudy Giuliani looks great today, wait until the southerners open up on him. It's only a matter of time.
LOUIS: Yeah. Rudy Giuliani very pointedly skipped the annual meeting of the National Conference of Religious Broadcasters. He didn't want to take any questions from them. He didn't want to get them riled up in any way.
So he is sticking to very scripted appearances where the discussion is national security, which is where she shines.
HALPERIN: The Iraq War is killing the two frontrunners. John McCain and Hillary Clinton. Their biggest problems right now are this war. Nonetheless, I think McCain is a much stronger frontrunner than the daily coverage would lead you to believe. He is building a lot of support. Like with the Democrats, let's see how much money these candidates raise in the first quarter. That's a big part of figuring out who is up and who is down in the first months of this year.
DOBBS: Mark Halperin, thank you very much. Errol Louis, thank you, sir. And Hank Sheinkopf. Thank you, sir.
And we thank you for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. I hope you're enjoying your weekend. Good night from New York. THIS WEEK AT WAR begins now with John Roberts.
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