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President Bush Honors Sacrifice Made by U.S. Troops in Iraq; Indictments in New York Groom Shooting>
Aired March 19, 2007 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush live this hour honoring the sacrifice made by U.S. troops in Iraq. Today the war enters its fifth year.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: A New York groom shot and killed hours before his wedding. In moments indictments against three New York police officers expected to be made public.
COLLINS: The search for a Boy Scout -- 12-year-old Michael Auberry apparently wandered from a campsite missing in the mountains, in the NEWSROOM.
We are keeping our eyes closely trained on two events this hour. The first, as we mentioned, President Bush at 11:30 will be speaking and making remarks from the Roosevelt Room. He's going to be discussing the sacrifices that U.S. soldiers have made in the war in Iraq, today being the fourth anniversary of that war.
Also we are watching some press conferences. We know that we will be hearing from the district attorney in the New York groom shooting. If you remember, this happening back November 25th. One person killed, the groom, the same day as his wedding. He was shot at apparently 50 times by three different officers. We are going to hear more about that. In fact let's go directly there now and listen to comments being made at that microphone.
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RICHARD BROWN, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: ... should be commended for their dedication, for their thoroughness, for their impartiality, and most of all for their professionalism. They're led by Charles Testagrossa (ph), who is the chief of my major crimes division, by Peter Reese (ph), who heads our homicides investigation bureau, and by Jeanette Trail (ph), who is the deputy chief of our appeals bureau. It is they, the three of them, who had the prime responsibility for presenting the volume of evidence in this case to the grand jury, and instructing it as to the applicable provisions of law.
Our investigation into the death of Sean Bell, and the wounding of Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield was about as throw and complete as I ever participated in. We interviewed more than 100 incidents, we revived over 500 separate exhibits. And then over a period of some three weeks of testimony, we presented the evidence resulting from our investigation to the grand jury.
During that time, the police officers who were alleged to have fired their weapons were, as required by law, given the opportunity to testify and to produce witnesses on their own behalf. And finally, we instructed the grand jury as to the applicable procedural and substantive law. The grand jury, as you know, concluded its deliberations last Friday. Those deliberations lasted over a period of some three days. It has handed up an eight-count indictment which was sealed by law until this morning, which charges three of the five police officers who are alleged to have fired their weapons last November 25th on Liverpool Street in South Jamaica.
Two of the officers charged, Michael Oliver and Giscardes (ph) Isnora, have been charged with manslaughter in the first degree, and in the second degree. That is to say both with intentional manslaughter and reckless manslaughter.
In addition, Oliver has been charged with assault in the first degree and reckless endangerment in the second degree. Isnora, in addition to the manslaughter counts, faces charges of assault in the second degree and reckless endangerment in the second degree. A third officer, Mark Cooper (ph), has been charged with only two counts of reckless endangerment in the second degree. The two remaining officers, who were alleged to have fired their weapons, have not been charged.
More specifically, the first count of the indictment charges Detective Oliver, who is alleged to have fired his weapon 31 times, and Isnora, who's alleged to have fired his weapon 11 times, with the crime of manslaughter in the first degree, which is a class-B violent felony, and in acting in concert, each aiding the other, with intent to cause serious physical injury to Joseph Guzman, caused the death of Sean Bell by shooting him with a loaded pistol.
The second count in the indictment charges Detectives Oliver and Isnora with the crime of manslaughter in the second degree, which is a class-C felony. In that acting in concert, each aiding the other, they recklessly caused the death of Sean Bell by shooting him with a loaded pistol.
The third count of the indictment charges Detectives Oliver and Isnora with the crime of assault in the first degree, a class-D violent felony, in acting in concert, each aiding the other with intent to cause serious physical injury to Joseph Guzman, caused such injury to Joseph Guzman by means of a deadly weapon.
The fourth count of the indictment charges detective Oliver alone with crime of assault in the first degree, a Class-B violent felony, in that with intent to cause serious injury to Trent Benefield. He caused such injury to Trent Benefield by means of a deadly weapon.
The fifth count of the indictment charges Detective Isnora with the crime of assault in the second degree, a class-D violent felony that recklessly caused serious injury to Trent Benefield, by means of a deadly weapon. The sixth count of the indictment charges Detectives Oliver and Isnora, as well as detective Marc Cooper, who is alleged to have fired his weapon four times, with the crime of reckless endangerment in the second degree, which is a class-A misdemeanor, in that acting in concert, each aiding the other, recklessly engaged in conduct which created a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person by discharging pistols multiple times on Liverpool Street while other persons were present on that street.
The seventh count of the indictment charges Detective Cooper alone with the crime of reckless endangerment in the second degree, a class-A misdemeanor in that he recklessly engaged in conduct which created substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person by discharging the pistol, thereby causing a bullet to pass through a window of an occupied air train station.
And finally, the eighth count of the indictment charges Detective Oliver alone with the crime of reckless endangerment in the second degree, a class-A misdemeanor, with the crime in that he recklessly engaged in conduct, which created a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person by discharging the pistol multiple times, thereby causing a bullet to pass through the window of an occupied residence.
Detectives Oliver and Isnora, who were each charged with class-B violent felony offenses, fact, sentences up to 25 years of prison in the event of their conviction. Detective Cooper, who was charged only with misdemeanor reckless endangerment, faces up to one year in prison if he is convicted. The defendants surrendered this morning here at the courthouse to detectives assigned to the police department's Internal Affairs Bureau, and they will be arraigned later today before Justice Randal Ange (ph), the administrative judge of the Supreme Court here in Queens in Hugh (ph) Gardens.
Now I understand that you would want me to provide you with greater factual detail than I've already provided with regard to the allegations upon which the charges contained in the indictment are based. I understand as well that you'd want me to discuss with you the legal principles that apply to this case.
COLLINS: We have been listening to District Attorney Richard Brown in the New York groom shooting case that happened back On November 25th. You may remember Sean Bell was killed, Trent Benefield and Joseph Guzman were injured, critically injured.
The big news out of this eight-count indictment: manslaughter in the first and second degree for Michael Oliver and Giscard Isnora. Thirty-one shots were fired by Michael Oliver, 11 shots fired by Giscard Isnora.
I want to go ahead and get straight to Jason Carroll. He is outside the courthouse where all of this is going on right now.
Jason, this seem like a surprise?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I don't think it's really going to be a surprise to a lot of people who have been watching this case, Heidi. When you're listening there to what the Queens D.A. was saying, manslaughter charges there, first and second degree. In addition to that assault and reckless endangerment, not only for Oliver, but for Giscard Isnora as well. You know, last week I was with the Bell family up in Harlem, New York, not too far from here, and listening to them I think there might be a little bit of surprise from their end. Those were some of the people thinking that perhaps there would not be indictments to this degree. Basically, the grand jury hitting these guys with just about everything that was out there are for them to be looking at.
COLLINS: I know at the very end of the case we talked about this last-minute witness that came forward. Clearly now as we look at these indictments and the charges, the credibility of that witness must not have held up.
COLLINS: Reporter: Didn't seem to have very much in the way of credibility, right? But you know, we have to also remember that this was a grand jury proceeding, and if that same witness is called at trial, then the other side will have an opportunity to cross-examine that particular witness, if that witness is even called. So we're going to have to see what happened with that.
We should also tell what's going to happen later. Now that these indictments have been handed down, what we are expecting next is the arraignment. That is scheduled to happen later on this afternoon at about 2:00 or so. And at that point some of those people from Bell's family, the other two men who were with Bell that evening are expected to attend that arraignment and face these officers for the first time since the shooting -- Heidi.
COLLINS: All right, CNN's Jason Carroll, right outside the courthouse there. Jason, thank you.
HARRIS: And let's take a closer look at the grand jury's findings through the eyes of two courtroom veterans. Paul Callan is a former prosecutor in New York.
Paul, great to see you.
And Pamela Hayes, a criminal defense attorney.
Pamela, as always, great to see you. Both joining us from New York.
Pamela, let me start with you, 100 witnesses, 500 exhibits. You can't call this a rush to judgment by this grand jury, can you?
PAMELA HAYES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTY.: No, I don't think so. I think this grand jury put a lot of time and effort. I think the presentation was legally sound. D.A. Brown is a former appellate court judge, and I think they did everything by the books. They have been criticized in taking too long to do this, but I think they wanted to do it right. And these kinds of cases are always difficult, where you have defendants that are police officers. So I think they did everything that they could. And it's not a surprise to me at all that they came up with the manslaughter and reckless endangerment charges.
HARRIS: Paul, any surprise necessary this for you? And how difficult a task is this for a prosecutor to have to come back with indictments like this after the grand jury finished its work?
PAUL CALLAN, FMR. N.Y. PROSECUTOR: Well, this is a very difficult situation for prosecutors. You know, prosecutors work every day with police officers. They're side-by-side advocates in court. And then to turn around and indict a police officer is always a difficult thing for a prosecutor.
These cases, Tony, are very, very difficult cases to win. It's very unusual to see a police officer indicted for a line-of duty- shooting. It's much more difficult to see him convicted after a jury trial, so District Attorney Brown has a real uphill battle to try to get a conviction in this case ultimately. They have great defense attorneys these police officers, and they're going to fight tooth and nail for an acquittal here.
HARRIS: Hey, Pamela, difficult because it's always tough to prove criminal intent in a case like this, is that correct?
HAYES: Well, it's tough to prove criminal intent, but in this instance, the issue is recklessness. It's not always intentional. If it was an intentional case, we might have a murder case, but in this case you have the element of recklessness, and that's what you are going to have to depend on the facts about. In this instance we really don't know the facts. All we know that is these cops were undercover in a club. We don't know whether they were drinking. We don't know what their situation was. And all we know is that when they come outside they start shooting. And the question then becomes, is that shooting justifiable? Does that go by the books? Or did they do something wrong? If in fact they did, then the D.A. will be able to get a conviction for, you know, this reckless manslaughter or reckless endangerment at the very least.
HARRIS: Hey, Paul, talk to us about the details of this case as you know them. I guess the critical question here is, do we know whether or not the detective who approached Sean Bell's car that night identified himself as an officer?
CALLAN: Well, there have been reports he did identify himself as an officer, and that by the time the shots were fired, he was in fact, wearing a gold police shield around him, but you know, Tony, what's very odd about this indictment, three of these officers are indicted. But two officers who also fired shots were not indicted. One of them, Kerry (ph), who represented by an attorney named Steve Worth (ph), who's a well-known attorney who represents police officers, fired three shots. The grand jury did not indict him. Why is that? Why wouldn't the grand jury indict all police officers if they felt firing any of the shots was unjustified. So there's a lot to be heard here.
The second thing I want to add is when this case is defended, Oliver, who fired 31 shots and reloaded, you would say to yourself, my god, how could anybody fire that many shots? But my understanding is there was an expert available to the grand jury. I don't know if he testified, who said that you could fire that many shots and reload in a period of 10 seconds. So all of this went down very, very quickly that night, and that's how these defense attorneys will be trying to defend these officers. They'll obviously say they were wrong. They made a mistake, but it was a good faith mistake, because they thought people in the car were armed.
HARRIS: And, Pamela, we know how unfortunate it is that Sean Bell is dead, but don't we on some level have to give police officers the benefit of the doubt, going into a club with a history of problems. They're in this club approaching a guy who they believe has a weapon. Whatever transpires transpires, and officers at some point felt they needed to defend themselves? Don't we need to give officers this latitude and give them the benefit of the doubt, even in a case where the outcome as is horrible as this?
HAYES: I think what we have to give the officers is the presumption of innocence. I'm not ready to give anybody the benefit of the doubt, where we don't actually know the facts. We need to know what happened. They have to be able to take this type of action under a situation that would be reasonable for a professional officer under those conditions, but if that's not what they did, I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I will, however, give them the presumption of innocence, because I think they're entitled to that. And until we find out what actually happened, I'm not going to give either party a, oh yes, they definitely did it, or no, they're just police officers so they get an extra benefit.
HARRIS: All right, let's leave it there. Pamela Hayes, great to see you, Paul Callan, you as well. Thanks for your time this morning.
CALLAN: Nice to be here.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The president is about to make a statement on the significance of the fourth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: Also four years of fighting in Iraq. What happened? What's ahead? We'll talk with radio host Bill Bennett about that in more. It's all coming up right here in the NEWSROOM.
HARRIS: And a alone in the woods -- a 12-year-old Scout missing for almost two days now. We'll update the search. That's coming up in the NEWSROOM.
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COLLINS: Measured in time, four years; measured in American lives, more than 3200. In less than 30 minutes, we'll hear what President Bush has to say on the somber Iraq war anniversary. White House correspondent Ed Henry is keeping watch on all of that.
Good morning to you once again, Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again, Heidi. In fact, within the next ten minutes, we'll be hearing directly from the president live from the Roosevelt Room here at the White House.
Heading into this morning, there was nothing on the president's schedule to officially mark this fourth anniversary of the invasion of Baghdad. But then we heard midmorning, the president in fact was having a secure video conference, that wrapped up a short time ago, with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki to get an update on the situation on the ground, and then the president will make these remarks now to the American people. We are told they'll last about five minutes and that the president is going to focus in on sacrifice that has been beared (SIC). As you noted, more than 3200 U.S. soldiers who have died already.
Also the president pushing and trying to keep the will of the American people going on the mission and defending that mission amid this pressure from Democrats, who now run Capitol Hill. As you know, legislation now floating around Capitol Hill to add some restrictions to the funding for the war in Iraq. Tony Snow, a short while ago off camera, telling reporters that those plans to start withdrawing U.S. troops are a, quote, "recipe for defeat" and that they would also provide victory for the enemy. This White House clearly on the defensive, feeling the heat, not just from Democrats but the American people, based on the fact that a lot of the assumptions, a lot of the predictions, heading in about the costs of the war, both financially, but also in the toll of human sacrifice that, a lot of those predictions turned out to be false. The administration very much on the defense over that. So you're going to see the president try to come back, get back on offense in these five minutes of comments, to try to talk about why he thinks this mission should not only move forward, but defend why he's sending about 10,000 more U.S. troops amid all of this pressure to withdraw, Heidi.
COLLINS: Ed Henry for us, outside the White House this morning. And in about eight minutes or so I bet we'll talk with you again. Thanks, Ed.
HARRIS: Iraqi families torn apart by the war, some chose to leave loved ones behind. CNN's Kyra Phillips is in Baghdad.
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KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN, BAGHDAD (voice-over): I miss him so much, Rabiyah (ph) Sudanee says, I'm dying to see him. Rabiyah and her son, Bahaa, are eight hundred miles apart: he in Cairo, his parents in Iraq. Bahaa, a successful doctor, made a life or death decision: to risk living in constant terror in Iraq or get his family out.
BAHAA SUDANEE, SON SEPARATED FROM PARENTS: I miss we're sitting in the (INAUDIBLE), looking to the sky of Baghdad. It is very hard, to leave everything behind you and go to the unknown future. It is very difficult.
PHILLIPS: But that meant leaving behind his career and his beautiful home, but most excruciatingly of all, Bahaa was forced to leave his parents.
We are old people, Karim Sudanee tells me. We can't afford to leave what we've gathered, like money and a house. If we die, we've had a long life and it will not be a big loss.
That decision broke their son's heart.
B. SUDANEE: The hardest things in separation, that you are when traveling, you see the tears in the eyes of your mother. You can't fear it, and you don't know when you will return.
PHILLIPS: There are more than two million Iraqi refugees now, forced by fear to separate. Many of them must choose between the life of an exile or the constant threat of war. Rabiyah sleeps with her Quran next to her bed every night. Karim waters his son's garden every day. Both waiting for their son to come home.
B. SUDANEE: We are still trust that our nation is (INAUDIBLE), and can solve all the problem inside the country quickly so we can return again to our country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: Kyra Phillips joins us now, from Baghdad. We know how painful it can be to watch families be divided by this war. Great to see you, Kyra. How many refugees now, and where are they?
PHILLIPS: Well, there are displaced Iraqis. And we actually visited a refugee camp. There were 200-plus families there, but there are 600,000 displaced Iraqis in this country. But when you talk about refugees, like the family we just introduced you to, this separated family, and Bahaa, who is in Cairo -- two million, Tony -- two million refugees outside of this country. They've gone to Jordan, they've gone to Syria, they've gone to Egypt.
Not everybody is lucky, like Bahaa. He was a successful doctor. He had the money to get out. So think of all the Iraqis that are here in-country that are displaced. They don't have the money to get out.
HARRIS: I'm thinking about Bahaa's parents here for a moment. Are they okay? And again, that decision: they gave you a couple of reasons as to why they were staying. Is that it?
PHILLIPS: Well, this was what was interesting, to learn about the culture. It is the man's duty to protect the home and to protect the family. So it was very hard for Bahaa to take his family out, where as the father, being older, felt that he needed to stay in the house, protect the house, protect his wife. And they have a lot of medical problems. He didn't want to be a burden to his son. He didn't want to have to worry about all the medication and all the physical problems, so they made the choice to stay. It's been really tough for them.
HARRIS: Kyra Phillips for us in Baghdad -- great to see you, Kyra. Thank you.
COLLINS: As we mark the anniversary, we remember those killed and wounded in this conflict -- 3,220 U.S. service members have died in Iraq since the beginning of the war. More than 24,000 troops have been injured in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
HARRIS: The commander-in-chief, his thoughts on the Iraq war, as the conflict enters a fifth year. President Bush, live in just minutes, here in the NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: And this news just in here at CNN, the United States has granted a visa for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to come to New York and address the U.N. Security Council. Not sure of the date just yet, but once again, his address of course will be coming as the U.N. weighs more sanctions against Iran over its nuclear program.
So the U.S. has granted a visa for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. CNN is confirming that he will come to New York to address the U.N. Security Council.
HARRIS: Purple, the new red? A glass of grape juice may do a heart good, just like wine. The latest study in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: And let's take you now to White House correspondent Ed Henry, as we stand by waiting for the president to make a statement marking this anniversary of the war in Iraq.
Ed, once again, what are we expecting to hear from the president?
HENRY: About five minutes in length, the president will be talking and making the case there's been progress on the ground. He's going to talk about how he thinks this so-called surge is working as well. Almost 10,000 more U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq amid Democratic calls for there to be less troops, for there to be a beginning of the withdrawal of U.S. troops.
Obviously, if you look ahead, there is another anniversary coming up, May 1st, four years ago when the president basically said major combat operations in Iraq had ended. The White House very much aware of the fact that whole "mission accomplished" controversy now four years later. The fact of the matter is that the mission has not been accomplished, that the White House over and over trying to make the case and the president will try to make again in just a moment from now that, the mission is not finished and that he wants more time to finish that mission, that he does not want his hands tied by Democrats.
And here comes the president.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good morning.
Four years ago today coalition forces launched Operation Iraqi Freedom to remove Saddam Hussein from power. They did so to eliminate the threat his regime posed to the Middle East and to the world.
Coalition forces carried out that mission with great courage and skill.
Today, the world is rid of Saddam Hussein. And a tyrant has been held to account -- for his crimes -- by his own people.
Nearly 12 million Iraqis have voted in free elections, under a democratic constitution that they wrote for themselves. And their democratic leaders are now working to build a free society that upholds the rule of law, that respects the rights of its people, that provides them security and is an ally in the war on terror.
At this point in the war, our most important mission is helping the Iraqis secure their capital.
BUSH: Until Baghdad's citizens feel secure in their own homes and neighborhoods, it will be difficult for Iraqis to make further progress toward political reconciliation or economic rebuilding -- steps necessary for Iraq to build a democratic society.
So with our help, Iraq's government is carrying out an aggressive plan to secure Baghdad. And we're continuing to train the Iraqi security forces so that they ultimately take full responsibility for the security of their own people.
I've just received an update on the situation from Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki. My conversation with the prime minister followed a briefing earlier this morning that included Secretary Rice and Secretary Gates, along with General Petraeus and Ambassador Khalilzad, who participated by video conference from Iraq.
Prime Minister Maliki and General Petraeus emphasized that the Baghdad security plan is still in its early stages and success will take months, not days or weeks.
Yet, those on the ground are seeing some hopeful signs. The Iraqi government has completed the deployment of three Iraqi army brigades to the capital, where they've joined the seven Iraqi army brigades and nine national police brigades that were already in the area.
The Iraqi government has also lifted restrictions that once prevented Iraqi and coalition forces from going into areas like Sadr City.
BUSH: American and Iraqi forces have established joint security stations. Those stations are scattered throughout Baghdad. And they're helping Iraqis reclaim their neighborhoods from the terrorists and extremists.
Together, we've carried out aggressive operations against both Shia and Sunni extremists; carried out operations against al Qaeda terrorists. We've uncovered large caches of weapons and destroyed two major car bomb factories that were located on the outskirts of Baghdad.
I want to stress that this operation is still in the early stages; still in the beginning stages. Fewer than half of the troop reinforcements we are sending have arrived in Baghdad.
The new strategy will need more time to take effect. And there will be good days and there will be bad days ahead as the security plan unfolds.
As we help the Iraqis secure their capital, their leaders are also beginning to meet the benchmarks they have laid out for political reconciliation.
Last month, Iraq's Council of Ministers approved a law that would share oil revenues among Iraqi people. The Iraqi legislature passed a $41 billion budget that includes $10 billion for reconstruction and capital improvements.
BUSH: And last week, Prime Minister Maliki visited Ramadi, a city in the Sunni heartland, to reach out to local Sunni tribal leaders.
There has been good progress. There's a lot more work to be done, and Iraq's leaders must continue to work to meet the benchmarks they have set forward.
As Iraqis work to keep their commitments, we have important commitments of our own. Members of Congress are now considering an emergency war spending bill. They have a responsibility to ensure that this bill provides the funds and the flexibility that our troops need to accomplish their mission. They have a responsibility to pass a clean bill that does not use funding for our troops as leverage to get special interest spending for their districts. And they have a responsibility to get this bill to my desk without strings and without delay.
It could be tempting to look at the challenges in Iraq and conclude our best option is to pack up and go home. That may be satisfying in the short run, but I believe the consequences for American security would be devastating. If American forces were to step back from Baghdad before it is more secure, a contagion of violence could spill out across the entire country. In time, this violence could engulf the region.
BUSH: The terrorists could emerge from the chaos with a safe haven in Iraq to replace the one they had in Afghanistan, which they used to plan the attacks of September 11, 2001. For the safety of the American people, we cannot allow this to happen.
Prevailing in Iraq is not going to be easy. General Petraeus says that the environment in Iraq is the most challenging that he has seen in his more than 32 years of service.
He also says that he's been impressed by the professionalism and the skill and determination of our men and women in uniform. He sees in our troops, quote, "a true will to win and a sincere desire to help our Iraqi partners to achieve success."
Four years after this war began, the fight is difficult, but it can be won. It will be won if we have the courage and resolve to see it through.
I'm grateful to our service men and women for all they've done, and for the honor they've brought to their uniform and their country.
I'm grateful to our military families for all the sacrifices they have made for our country. We also hold in our hearts the good men and women who have begin their lives in this struggle. We pray for the loved ones they have left behind.
The United States military is the most capable and courageous fighting force in the world. And whatever our differences in Washington, our troops and their families deserve the appreciation and the support of our entire nation.
Thank you.
COLLINS: The president of the United States of the making remarks from the Roosevelt Room there, just as expected, I would say, about five minutes or so, speaking about the sacrifices of our men and women in the United States military branches on this four-year anniversary of the Iraq War.
Our Ed Henry is standing by now to tell us more about all of this.
Ed, pretty much as expected today?
HENRY: That's right. Struck immediately by the president saying the fight will be difficult, but it can be won. Significant he used the word "can." Even the president is acknowledging now -- he's done this before, but once again on the fourth anniversary -- that victory, however you define it, it not a certainty. Only saying it can be won, not we will win.
Also the president talking about the U.S. finding large caches of weapon, a far cry from the beginning of the war when the president said we were going to find weapons of mass destruction. Also the president acknowledging somewhat candidly there -- quote -- "There will good days. There will be bad days." Yet another plea for patience, time from the American people, amid polls saying patience is wearing thin on the homefront.
Also the president trying to make the case that progress is being made on the ground, repeatedly referring to General Petraeus. You heard that was we noted and reported earlier he got this briefing from his national security team, and General Petraeus claiming to the president good progress is being made. The president saying a lot more needs to be done.
And also a message to the Democrats on Capitol Hill, who are trying to attach these strings to the war funding bill. The president saying there may be a temptation to, quote, "pack up and go home," but warning that a contagion of violence could spread throughout the Mideast if the job is not finished.
Look, these are things we've heard before. He's made all these cases and all of these arguments before. What is most striking is on the fourth anniversary, he still's having to make this case over and over again.
He knows the American people are very skeptical. He knows he know has a very aggressive Democratic Congress, and that's what's most striking four years later, is that a lot of the predictions the administration made at the beginning about being greeted as liberators, about finding weapons of mass destruction, they have not panned out. And also the president now having to make these same cases over and over again -- Heidi.
COLLINS: CNN's Ed Henry outside the White House this morning. Ed, thank you.
HARRIS: Let's get to Capitol Hill now. Our congressional correspondent Dana Bash, joining us now.
And, Dana, the president wants war funding without strings. Is he likely to get it?
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is a big open question. And you know, as Ed was saying, he took a shot right down Pennsylvania Avenue, right here to Congress, specifically about this war funding bill. As Ed said, he wants it without strings. But what's interesting is that the Democrats in the House, at least right now, their problem isn't so much with Republicans, it's with Democrats. They are struggling, and they will struggle, between now and probably on Thursday when the full House votes to get enough Democratic votes to pass this funding bill, and this funding bill does have a hard deadline for combat troops to come out of Iraq by September 2008.
As we've been reporting, the same struggles that have been going on the past couple of weeks, Tony. You have the sort of so-called "out of Iraq" caucus, those who say that is not enough, we want troops to come out sooner, and we want to even use funding in a more direct way to do that. And then you have those on the right of the Democratic caucus, who are saying, you know, agree with the president, that we don't want to tie the hands of the commander in chief, micromanage the strategy there, and that is what the House Democrats are struggling with, and that is going to be the thing that we are going to be watching all week here, whether they can get the 218 votes to pass what they want to do initially.
Whether or not this will ever get to the president's desk though is a big open question. It has to come over to the Senate side. And as we saw displayed late last week, they couldn't get a simple majority, 51 votes, for that hard deadline for U.S. troops to come out -- Tony.
HARRIS: And, Dana, how amazing is it that Democrats would be having these kinds of problems coming together on the message, when our recent polling suggests that Democrats across the country stand at 91 percent against this war.
BASH: Well, this is what their argument is, Tony, they say that Democrats at the end of the day do support -- their big picture that they do support is that that kind of deadline, and that is something that is new, that we are finally seeing them sort of coalescing around that over the past couple of weeks. But there you see there the poll you were just talking about -- the argument that Democrats make over and over that is Republicans can only ignore that polling, or the polling that you see there, for so long. That shows that about 1/4 Republicans think that the war in Iraq is wrong, and that is why they think that they are going to try to keep bringing this up over and over again. And eventually, they hope, eventually get Republicans to come on their side.
But here is the one line we learned over the past week, that Republicans so far are not ready to cross, Tony, and that is that hard deadline. Even Republicans who are so vocally opposed to the war at this point, they say, you know what, that's just something we are not going to go for. Even the moderate Republicans and others who have been really reluctant to support the president's war strategy, they say a hard deadline is something we can't support.
HARRIS: Our congressional correspondent Dana Bash for us. Dana, thank you.
BASH: Thank you.
COLLINS: And with us to talk about all of this, as well, is radio host and CNN contributor Bill Bennett.
Bill, thanks for being with us.
BILL BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks.
COLLINS: I know that you were listening to the president's comments from the Roosevelt Room as well. He said, "A tyrant has been held to account by his own people. There are free elections, a constitution," on and on. Of course the president is going to point out some positive things that have happened in Iraq in all of this. But what are your listeners talking about when we look four years down the road?
BENNETT: Well, I have to say they're somewhat more optimistic than the 11 minutes of commentary you just heard. You don't need a Democratic sitting with me when you get that kind of commentary about how negative things are, how bad things are. The war is tough. It's very tough. But there are some accomplished. Some missions have been accomplished.
Most of my listeners are hoping for a good result. That is, they're with Petraeus. They're with the surge. They support it. And they are looking to the fact that we've made some progress.
Defense secretary, Heidi, yesterday said so far, so good. And only half the troops are there. There's a question what President Bush does if this surge does work. My question for Democrats and commentators is, what are you going to do if it does work? Supposing the president, and the Marines and the Army prevail? How are you going to explain this?
Tony's question is a very good one, and has an answer. If 91 percent are opposed to the war, why can't they get their act together? The answer is, there's another question. Opposed to the war, OK. Now what are you going to do about it? What's your plan?
And in terms of Dana's comment, if I might, about not crossing that threshold that says let's set a hard date, there's a pretty obvious reason for not setting a hard Date, Because the bad guys will wait until the day after the date. That's why.
COLLINS: Well, and we have talked about that quite a bit here, Bill, by way of what happens in the streets.
BENNETT: Right.
COLLINS: We think about Anbar province, and Baghdad and so forth.
BENNETT: Sure.
COLLINS: The patience insurgents and terrorists have to -- with the new security plan, everyone seems to be calming down, at least a bit, but that they will wait.
BENNETT: Yes, they will wait, and a lot of these guys are people who nurse grudges for 700, 800 years. So that optimistic for early resolution.
But bear in mind, one of the most important things that happened is the Mehdi Army is not up in arms. Muqtada Al-Sadr is still in Iran. The orders have not gone out, and this effort on General Petraeus' part seems to be working. Look, you don't conduct. I wish the president had given some of the reasons again why we were there, in addition to weapons of mass destruction. I wish he had pointed out that this is a different kind of war. I mean, all this stuff that we had over the weekend. You know, it's four years long. You don't fire bomb anymore. You don't drop atom bombs on a place like Iraq. You want to end a war. You can do that.
But we're not going to do that anymore. You're certainly not going to do that in this kind of a conflict. If you read history, if you understand the history of the world, war have different rhythms. They have different times. They take longer periods of time, depending on the nature of the aggressor and the nature of the resistance. This is a complicated story for a variety of reasons.
But I wish the president's mood had been a little more upbeat, not just gratitude to the troops, but recognition that some things have been done, and done well. And we should be very proud of the reasons that we went into Iraq. Most of the Iraqis are very upset about the current situation, but do not want us to leave, and that is a critical factor.
COLLINS: Well, in fact our own Kyra Phillips had that story about that very thing. She followed one family who said that they very much wanted the terrorists to leave, but when I asked her about U.S. troops, she certainly said that they were glad they were there. Again, just one story. But there's certainly some of that.
You know what, Bill, I want to turn the corner here just a little bit and get to another news note that of course we've been following. The firings of the U.S. attorneys.
Should Attorney General Alberto Gonzales resign, or be forced out? And why, if you can explain to us, the viewers, do we not talk in the midst of this story about what happened in 1993 under a different administration?
BENNETT: Well, because I have to say this. It pains me to say it, but Clinton did this the way he's supposed to do it. He came in. He's elected. He says, fine, you are gone. That's it.
Now when President Bush is elected, he could have done this. He didn't. He waited until much longer into the second term.
At this point, explanations were offered by the administration, but it turned out they were inconsistent and were not convincing. That's what gives rise to all this paranoia. Some of it may be justified. Richard Williams said even paranoids have enemies. You know, sometimes it's real.
But I think Gonzales shouldn't go now at this point. Here's why. Because you don't want to have people believe when the attorney general or the president decide they want to get rid of the U.S. attorneys, that's a firing offense. It's not a firing offense.
However, one more damaging release of another thing that's been messed up here, or if a story I know CNN is working on, some of these U.S. attorneys were pursuing Republican corruption and were told to pull back, anything like that, and he will be gone, and if that was the reason, he should be gone.
COLLINS: What about rove and Meiers testifying on this matter?
BENNETT: I don't know if Rove and Meiers will. That's an executive privilege thing. But one of the things that fascinates me, I don't know whether Karl Rove is involved in this or not, but no matter the controversy, whether it's Joe Wilson, Valerie Plame or Gonzales, it's where's Waldo. Where's Waldo? The obsession with Karl Rove is a bit like the obsession with Bill Clinton that we see among some people on the right. It's really quite fascinating to watch.
COLLINS: All right. CNN contributor Bill Bennett, and of course morning radio show host as well. He does it all.
Bill Bennett, nice to see you, thanks.
BENNETT: Thank you very much.
HARRIS: We will talk about the war in Iraq four years later with retired Brigadier General -- there he is -- James Spider Marks. But first a break. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Let's talk about the war in Iraq four years later with Retired Brigadier General James "Spider" Marks.
James, great to see you.
BRIG. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Tony, how are you?
HARRIS: Let me ask you -- did you expect to see where we are in terms of troop levels, where we are right now in Iraq four years to this date?
MARKS: Four years ago, Tony, what we thought we would have is a deposed Saddam, and we'd have peace in Iraq and we'd have a military that would be standing up in all forms of governance. Frankly, going into Iraq, we underestimated the amount of the commitment that we had. And clearly, we had plans in place during the early days to be gone from Iraq by about Christmas of '03, into the spring period of '04. So no, I think, honestly, the assessment was we wouldn't be where we are. But we are where we are now, and we're making progress.
HARRIS: What is the best hope for success now? I don't know how we define that word, but I'll let you take a shot at it.
MARKS: Well, first of all we can't have a microwave solution. We can't expect to have a 30-second solution on this thing and check it out. This is going to take some time. General Petraeus has indicated that.
And the American public must have patience with this. That is something that's in very short supply. This is an insurgency. This is going to -- insurgencies take about nine years to normalize. They're either dead and gone, or they're kind of in power and they're making it work. So we're only moving in. We're moving into the fourth-plus year of this. So we've got to establish some patience, and we've got to establish job one is security.
Look, the average Iraqi family only wants to get about their business getting their kids onto school, having some ability to go to the local market. Wouldn't it be great, Tony, if the only challenge that an Iraqi mother had was to worry about whether her son is going to grow up to be a jerk as opposed to whether he's going to grow up at all and have an opportunity for a life beyond what he's got today? And so security has to be established. And Dave Petraeus and these great troop we have in harm's way have to be begin an opportunity to establish that security with the help of the Iraqis. That's the plan.
HARRIS: Spider, do you believe that -- let's say the surge is successful. There are many who suggest whenever the U.S. leaves that the insurgents will just simply come back and fill whatever vacuum and exploit whatever weaknesses the security forces in Iraq have?
MARKS: Well, that presupposes that when the United States departs that they haven't achieved conditions where the insurgents can come back.
I mean, the key issue here is there has to be a real focus on achieving results at the very lowest levels. And you've got to do that in neighborhood by neighborhood over the course of time. And that is, frankly, a very, very tough order to achieve. But it certainly is achievable.
Now your question about how you do measure success? How many hospitals have been opened up? How many schools are conducting classes? How many roads have been laid? How can oil distribution work, down to the very lowest level, not policies on redistribution, but how long are the queues? How long does it take? these Are things that can and should be measured. We're increasing the number of provincial reconstruction, regional reconstruction teams. We're doubling those. But what's the delivery on that? And those are the questions that should be asked.
HARRIS: Spider, great to see you. Retired Brigadier General James "Spider" Marks for us. Four years, this anniversary that we're marking today here on CNN.
James, thank you.
MARKS: Thanks.
COLLINS: CNN NEWSROOM continues just one hour from now.
HARRIS: "YOUR WORLD TODAY" is next with news happening across the globe and here at home. I'm Tony Harris.
COLLINS: and I'm Heidi Collins. Have a great rest of the Monday, everybody.
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