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Nancy Grace
911 Tapes Released in Killing of Teacher`s Teen Lover
Aired March 28, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a stunning twist to a student-teacher affair. A young father of two pulls a long gun after his teacher wife lures a teen student into a sex affair. Tonight: The husband-turned- shooter tells his story on air, claiming accident, but does a 911 call to police prove he really plotted and planned to murder his teenage love rival? Tonight, we have obtained those 911 calls. What do they reveal?
And tonight, "Amber Alert." Live to Washington state, the search turns desperate for a 4-year-old girl, her 2-year-old little brother. Police believe the children are in danger. Tonight, just released grainy surveillance video shows the father on the run. Has he drastically altered the children`s appearance? And is he now traveling with a female accomplice? We track the clues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two-year-old Lars Baugher and his 4-year-old sister, Remi, were last seen Saturday in nearby Waitsburg, where Baugher apparently took the kids to have lunch with a friend of his. Baugher got into some sort of dispute there before taking off and hasn`t been seen since.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI has information which makes it believe John Baugher may be in the Missoula, Montana, are. Walla Walla Police Department says John Baugher is an avid hitchhiker. He often hitchhikes between Seattle and Spokane. He certainly knows how to get around the area without his own vehicle, so it wouldn`t be too out of the question to be somewhere else out of the state. And police are also looking into the possibility that he may have dropped the children off with another adult.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has a history of being unstable, but I believe that the children are protected. I don`t believe that John would harm them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
First, 911 tapes in the deadly teacher-student sex affair.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sean Powell was shot outside the couple`s home. According to police, the husband, Eric McLean, called them to report an intruder was at his home.
ERIC MCLEAN: Hello. I have an intruder in the house.
911 OPERATOR: Where are you?
ERIC MCLEAN: 2424 Coker Avenue.
911 OPERATOR: You have an intruder in your house? What do you mean by an intruder?
ERIC MCLEAN: Trespasser.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Minutes later, though, his wife also called police and told them that, in fact, he had shot her alleged teen lover, Sean Powell.
911 OPERATOR: 911.
ERIN MCLEAN: My husband just killed someone.
911 OPERATOR: What`s the address, ma`am?
ERIN MCLEAN: 2424 Coker.
911 OPERATOR: Is he there with you right now?
ERIN MCLEAN: No, but the body`s here.
911 OPERATOR: How did he do it?
ERIN MCLEAN: He shot him with a shotgun. Please come! Hurry! Hurry!
911 OPERATOR: Stay on the line, please. Don`t hang up.
ERIN MCLEAN: Oh, my God. Oh, my God!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A teacher-student affair turns deadly when the husband of his wife teacher takes a long gun after the student. The student apparently, just 18 years old, had been camping out of sorts, sleeping overnight in a car parked in front of the teacher`s home.
Let`s go straight out -- joining us tonight, Catherine Howell. She is with News Talk 100 WONX (SIC). What`s the latest? I understand there was a court appearance. What did we learn?
CATHERINE HOWELL, NEWS TALK 100 WNOX: Well, we learned, basically, that he had this very casual conversation. And then afterward, he walks out past Sean Powell, where he`s sitting in the car, walks to the bed of the truck, gets a gun and comes back. That`s necessarily the prosecution`s argument is that he`s done this. Now, right now, the case is in the hands of the grand jury. They`re going to have to determine whether or not they`re going to indict on first degree murder charges.
GRACE: Take a listen to this 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911.
ERIN MCLEAN: My husband just killed someone.
911 OPERATOR: What`s the address, ma`am?
ERIN MCLEAN: 2424 Coker.
911 OPERATOR: Is he there with you right now?
ERIN MCLEAN: No, but the body`s here.
911 OPERATOR: How did he do it?
ERIN MCLEAN: He shot him with a shotgun. Please come! Hurry! Hurry!
911 OPERATOR: Stay on the line, please. Don`t hang up.
ERIN MCLEAN: Oh, my God. Oh, my God!
911 OPERATOR: What`s your name, ma`am?
ERIN MCLEAN: Erin.
911 OPERATOR: What`s the phone number you`re calling from?
ERIN MCLEAN: (DELETED) I know he killed him!
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am, did he leave in a vehicle?
ERIN MCLEAN: He killed him! He killed him!
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am? Ma`am, I need you to talk to me. Did he leave in a vehicle?
ERIN MCLEAN: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: What kind of vehicle?
ERIN MCLEAN: I don`t know what year. It`s, like, blue-green.
911 OPERATOR: Which way? Which way did he go when he left?
ERIN MCLEAN: I don`t know. (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK, ma`am, stay on the line. What I need you to do for me -- you`re doing real good -- just tell our ambulance dispatchers your address so I can start the ambulance to check, OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, the young victim`s mother says, "She" -- that would be the teacher/lover -- "led my son on and played him. This is every parent`s worst nightmare. I think she should be held accountable. These teachers are feasting on our children in school. Something has got to be done."
Well, something was done, all right. Her husband unloaded a rifle, high-powered rifle, into the head, one shot into this 18-year-old boy sitting in front of the home.
And joining us tonight, his lawyer. This is Bruce Poston. He is Eric McLean`s attorney. Mr. Poston, thank you for being with us.
BRUCE POSTON, ERIC MCLEAN`S ATTORNEY: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Mr. Poston, when you and your client gave your interview on NBC "Today" show to Matt Lauer, it seems to me that somehow that`s a little bit different than what I`m hearing from you now. At the time your client interviewed with Matt Lauer, he said it was an accident. But you yourself have now stated publicly, "Everyone has a breaking point." Are you suggesting now your client just snapped and unloaded?
POSTON: Well, I didn`t use the word "accident." "Accident" has a lot of different meanings to people. I think accident, tragedy -- I think that`s how Eric uses the terms whenever I`ve been with him, interchangeably, a terrible accident, a terrible tragedy.
GRACE: Well, sir, let me refresh your recollection. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT LAUER, "TODAY" SHOW CO-HOST: Did you shoot Sean Powell?
ERIC MCLEAN: Yes.
LAUER: You knew that she was having an affair?
ERIC MCLEAN: I mean, I -- I -- I pretty much knew. I think I was just, like, in denial for a long time, you know?
LAUER: Why not leave?
ERIC MCLEAN: I don`t know. I just couldn`t leave her. I love her!
He got out of the car and I told him that he couldn`t be here. And then he just started ignoring me and walking through the yard. And I told him -- (INAUDIBLE) going to talk about it.
LAUER: Did you say, Erin, make him go, make him leave?
There was a second 911 call made about seven minutes later. And that one was made by Erin. And during that 911 call, Erin told the dispatcher that, Eric has shot someone. So I guess I have to ask, what happened in those seven minutes, Eric?
ERIC MCLEAN: I can`t -- we don`t go through it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was a very emotional and exclusive interview Eric McLean gave to NBC News. And during that interview, your client states point blank the shooting was an accident.
POSTON: Right. That`s what he said.
GRACE: But now you`re suggesting, I never said it was an accident, and you`re also suggesting, and I`m quoting you, that "Everybody has a, let me say, breaking point." That sounds like voluntary manslaughter.
POSTON: You`re very astute. In fact, the first time I was on your show maybe a week ago, when -- after the Matt Lauer interview, that was before the preliminary hearing. And we knew already what the state had. So what Eric said in terms of being the shooter was something that -- not tripping up any cards that weren`t going to be played eventually.
But in terms of what you said, you said the seven minutes is key, and that is the basis of this case. This case is all about what happens to Eric McLean during those seven minutes before the shooting.
GRACE: Joining us, Catherine Howell with News Talk 100 WONX there in Knoxville, Tennessee. Mr. Poston has tried a lot of cases. He`s no stranger to a courtroom. But I find this a very significant shift in the defense. What we`re talking about is a teenager who clearly has had some emotional problems in the past, launching into a sex affair with a teacher, ending up camping out in front of her home. And what McLean says is, He ignored me when I tried to speak to him, and he shot him.
Also at the preliminary hearing, Catherine, it`s my understanding the prosecution is alleging the gun -- the muzzle of the gun was inside the car, that the defendant put the gun inside the car. Now, how can that be an accident?
HOWELL: That`s what the prosecution is saying at this point, that maybe the door had even been opened up and that Sean had put his hand up with a cigarette in his hand to sort of block the shot when the shot was taken.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Renee Rockwell out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Richard Herman and Susan Moss. Renee Rockwell, Mr. Poston is between a rock and a hard spot. I know he can`t divulge his trial strategy, but the reality is, first he says accidents. Whoops! I tripped and I shot the kid right in the head, a kid who was basically asleep in the car. Now suddenly, his quote is, "Everybody has a breaking point. There`s only so much you can endure before you get to that place and lose control."
What kind of defense is that?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy...
GRACE: I was in this -- I was no longer in a safe place?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, what we have here is someone that has painted themselves in the corner because he`s talked and talked and talked on television. He`s not going to be able to wiggle around too much now, Nancy, that he`s made all these statements, you`ll agree.
GRACE: I do agree. I love it when defendants give statements. But wisely, Poston did cut it off when they got to, as he says, the critical seven minutes. What`s so critical about that, Richard Herman?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, perhaps he was fighting with his wife. Perhaps they had an argument, She was saying things to antagonize him. But I think Mr. Poston needs to have his head examined to allow his client get on television and answer questions, and then tonight to divulge to you attorney-client privilege conversations with his client. It`s outrageous!
GRACE: He`s not divulged...
HERMAN: This guy needs another lawyer.
GRACE: ... anything tonight, Richard Herman. You put me in a very tough position of defending a defense attorney. He hasn`t divulged a single conversation.
HERMAN: He told you what his client said to him! He shouldn`t say anything!
GRACE: He said it to Matt Lauer.
HERMAN: He should not be disclosing anything about conversations with his client. He should not go on Matt Lauer. This is why he`s got himself a bigger problem than he would have had originally. And they have to be careful how they charge this case, Nancy, because if they charge first degree and don`t have any (INAUDIBLE) on it, I`m telling you, this guy`s going to walk.
GRACE: Well, the reality, in many jurisdictions, if the defense asks for a lesser such as voluntary manslaughter, they`re going to get it.
But Susan Moss, what about the children, the two little children left behind? He`s behind bars. The mom`s already tried to commit suicide. And what, do you think a court is going to hand two little kids over to a woman having an affair with a teenager?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY AND CHILD ADVOCATE: Absolutely. What about the children? Dad`s in jail, and Mom has some very significant reasons why she may be determined as unfit. Firstly, she tried to kill herself. Presumably, the kids were living with her when this occurred. Can you imagine what that does to children?
GRACE: Oh, everybody`s tried to kill themselves, Caryn Stark. First of all, this guy -- and let me know when I get Bruce Poston back, Elizabeth. We lost the satellite for a moment.
First of all, Caryn Stark, the defendant says he`s going to kill himself, and he goes two weeks before and borrows a high-powered rifle. Now, I don`t know how familiar you are with methods and assessment of suicide, but rarely do you commit suicide with a long gun. So he goes and gets this high-powered rifle. He never kills himself. Then the wife, she`s so embarrassed, she`s going to kill herself. Didn`t happen. I guess she took an overdose of Tylenol.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, what does that tell you, Nancy? It tells you that neither one of these parents are fit parents. And it`s going to be a big problem for these children, unfortunately. It also tells you something about this whole notion of accidental. Does somebody accidentally pick up a gun? That doesn`t make any sense to me. He had that gun in his hand.
GRACE: You know, I`ve got to go back to Bruce Poston, who is now with us. Bruce, I was in a very tough position of having to defend you when your satellite went down. Richard Herman went on the attack and basically said you`re ineffective for allowing that Matt Lauer interview. But I think you`ve got another ace up your sleeve by allowing the interview. Why did you do it?
POSTON: Well, I think -- I`ve told people before that a new trend with prosecutors now is in closing argument, to stand up and say, Look, ladies and gentlemen, they`ve had 18 months or 24 months to prepare for this trial -- because it takes a long time before a case goes to trial -- to practice with the lawyer, the story and the tears. We also know that raw emotions are seen up close to an event, but as time goes on, they tend to wane a bit, particularly if you`re held in a county jail.
With all that was going on -- it was a firestorm of publicity -- I felt and Eric agreed that it was in his best interest. And the ground rules were we would not talk about the facts of the case with one exception, he would admit being the shooter. But everybody knew that. The 911 tape, Eric had -- no one knew except the state and myself that he had given a statement.
GRACE: Richard...
POSTON: So that wasn`t the issue.
HERMAN: Nancy, this is temporary insanity. This was not an accident. This was a heat of passion, manslaughter case. That`s what it is, open and shut. And to throw a red herring out there that it was accidental...
GRACE: Richard...
HERMAN: ... is going to come back and hurt the defense.
GRACE: You`ve been practicing in New York too long. This guy is defending in Tennessee, where the defendant could face the death penalty. He`ll be doing a huge service to his client if he can possibly get a voluntary manslaughter. But it`s all boiling down, in my mind, about what we learned in the 911 tapes, those just released tapes we have obtained. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Knox County 911.
ERIC MCLEAN: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Hello? Sir?
ERIC MCLEAN: Hello. I have an intruder in my house.
911 OPERATOR: Where are you?
ERIC MCLEAN: 2424 Coker Ave.
911 OPERATOR: You have an intruder in your house? What do you mean by an intruder?
ERIC MCLEAN: Huh?
911 OPERATOR: I mean, you`re having a casual conversation, and an intruder could mean someone who has broken in. What does it mean to you?
ERIC MCLEAN: Trespasser.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is this someone you opened the door for, or did they break in?
ERIC MCLEAN: Well...
911 OPERATOR: OK.
ERIC MCLEAN: He tried to walk in.
911 OPERATOR: OK, let start with your name.
ERIC MCLEAN: Huh?
911 OPERATOR: What is your name?
ERIC MCLEAN: (INAUDIBLE) McLean.
911 OPERATOR: And you`re calling from (DELETED)
ERIC MCLEAN: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: What door did he walk in?
ERIC MCLEAN: The front door.
911 OPERATOR: He just opened the door and walked in?
ERIC MCLEAN: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know this person?
ERIC MCLEAN: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK, who is it?
ERIC MCLEAN: Some guy who`s stalking my wife. He`s been sleeping outside our house for the past couple of days.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know his name?
ERIC MCLEAN: Yes, his name is Sean Powell.
911 OPERATOR: Sean Bowell?
ERIC MCLEAN: Powell.
911 OPERATOR: Powell? Is he white or black?
ERIC MCLEAN: White.
911 OPERATOR: What`s he wearing?
ERIC MCLEAN: Shorts, a red shirt, sandals.
911 OPERATOR: And why is he stalking your wife?
ERIC MCLEAN: He`s one of her former students.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: That guy is not temporarily insane. And I also didn`t hear him needing one of these during his 911 calls. That was only when he was interviewing with Matt Lauer.
Let`s go to the lines. Stephanie in Michigan. Hi, Stephanie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you this evening?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering how long the affair between the teacher and the student had been going on at the time of the murder.
GRACE: To Catherine Howell with 100 WONX. what do we know about that, Catherine?
HOWELL: It`s WNOX.
GRACE: Oh, thank you.
HOWELL: Actually, they met when she began her internship in August. She began her internship at West High School in August. Now, he dropped out of school after he turned 18 in November. So you have to -- it`s pretty obvious that there had been a relationship established by the time he dropped out in November, whatever kind of relationship it may have been.
GRACE: Do you expect any charges against her, Bruce Poston?
POSTON: No, I really don`t. No one`s implicating her at all in this tragedy and...
GRACE: I mean, for sex with a student.
POSTON: No. In Tennessee, statutory rape would be having even consensual sex if he`s under the age of 18, and unless they`ve got eyewitnesses, it`s going to be very difficult to prove that she had sex or even a loving relationship prior to 18. I think she`s going to take the position she didn`t even have a relationship until he dropped out of school and turned 18.
GRACE: OK.
POSTON: That`d be a tough case.
GRACE: Mr. Poston, excellent defense attorney.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." A Georgia man -- remember him? -- who faked his own death to avoid child molestation charges, convicted today, sentenced to 20 years behind bars. Forty-one-year-old Julian Pitkins (ph) guilty of molesting a 12-year-old daughter of his fiance, Peachtree City, Georgia. Now, remember, Pitkins vanished last November, one day before trial, faking his own death in a, quote, "fishing accident" off the coast of Galveston. Pitkins arrested weeks later alive and well in Miami, Florida.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911.
ERIN MCLEAN: My husband just killed someone.
911 OPERATOR: What`s the address, ma`am?
ERIN MCLEAN: 2424 Coker.
911 OPERATOR: Is he there with you right now?
ERIN MCLEAN: No, but the body`s here.
911 OPERATOR: How did he do it?
ERIN MCLEAN: He shot him with a shotgun. Please come. Hurry! Hurry!
911 OPERATOR: Stay on the line, please. Don`t hang up.
ERIN MCLEAN: Oh, my God. Oh, my God!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: A teacher-student affair turns deadly. Now just released 911 calls suggest that this was no accident, no spur-of-the-moment shooting in anger, but instead, well planned.
Out to a special guest tonight, Owen LaFave. He is the former husband of teacher-turned-defendant Debra LaFave, author, as well. Welcome, Owen. You have felt the same feelings this guy, Eric McLean, felt. You didn`t take a long gun.
OWEN LAFAVE, DEBRA LAFAVE`S EX-HUSBAND: No, you`re absolutely right, Nancy. And that`s something you can`t do. But you know, from his perspective, he knew that this was going on for a month-and-a-half, so he had 45 days for this to just eat him inside -- the pain, the humiliation, the anger and the rage. And you know, what`s so surprising is that, you know, the boy was camped outside of his house for two days. Eric was definitely provoked. There`s no doubt about it. The boy walked into the house, but...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No, no, no, no, no! No, no! Take a look at the 911 call. Take a look at the statements. This boy didn`t go in the house. He was outside, sleeping in the car. The most he did is walk across the yard and ignore the defendant when the defendant tried to stop him. Where`s the provocation?
LAFAVE: He`s camped out in front of his house for two days, Nancy. How come -- you know, I will say Eric is probably going to go to jail. I think the wife is partly responsible for this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Metro. What`s the address of your emergency?
ERIN MCLEAN: 2424 Coker. My husband killed someone. Please come try to save him. Please, please!
911 OPERATOR: OK. And who is the person he tried to kill?
ERIN MCLEAN: I think he`s dead. Sean Powell. Come on! Please hurry up!
911 OPERATOR: OK, ma`am. I`ve got an ambulance, a fire truck and police department on the way. Where`s the guy that shot now?
ERIN MCLEAN: The guy who`s shot is sitting in his (DELETED) car! Please come save him. Please! God, please!
911 OPERATOR: He`s in the car?
ERIN MCLEAN: Yes. Please hurry up!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Newly released 911 tapes suggest that this was no crime of passion, no accident, but instead a planned murder as a result of a teacher-student sex affair. Now a husband and father behind bars for murder one.
Out to the lines. Jane in Tennessee. Hi, Jane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, in the two days that this young man was camped outside her house, the highly charged emotional situation, she obviously had a measure of control over both men. Why at any point in time did she not just go out there and ask him to leave? It appears to me as though she wanted a confrontation.
GRACE: To you, Catherine Howell with WNOX News Talk 100. Is there any evidence she ever tried to diffuse the situation?
HOWELL: Not that I have heard. And in fact, I`ve heard that same argument from a lot of people in this community, sort of holding her culpable for allowing it to get to that -- to escalate to the point that it did.
GRACE: You know, that`s kind of what you were saying, Owen LaFave, but Owen, she`s not the one that pulled the trigger.
LAFAVE: No, you`re absolutely right, Nancy. And Eric ultimately is the one that pulled the trigger and should be punished for it. However, she had every opportunity to intervene to prevent this from happening.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT LAUER, "TODAY" SHOW HOST: Did you shoot Sean Powell?
ERIC MCLEAN, ACCUSED OF MURDER: Yes.
LAUER: You knew that she was having an affair?
ERIC MCLEAN: I mean, I pretty much knew. I think I was just like in denial for a long time.
LAUER: Why not leave?
ERIC MCLEAN: I don`t know. I just couldn`t leave her. I love her. He got out of the car, and I told him that he couldn`t be here, and then he just starting ignored me, and walking through the yard. And I told him...
LAUER: Did you say, "Erin, make him go"?
(CROSSTALK)
LAUER: There was a second 911 call made about seven minutes later, and that one was made by Erin. And during that 911 call, Erin told the dispatcher that Eric has shot someone. So I guess I have to ask, what happened in those seven minutes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can`t go through it.
DISPATCHER: Now, the guy that did the shooting.
ERIN MCLEAN, WIFE OF ERIC MCLEAN: He`s gone off in his car. Please, please come save him, please.
DISPATCHER: Ma`am, they`re already on the way. Where is he shot? What part of his body is shot?
ERIN MCLEAN: His head, he`s shot in the head.
DISPATCHER: How old is Sean?
ERIN MCLEAN: Eighteen.
DISPATCHER: Sean Powell?
ERIN MCLEAN: (INAUDIBLE)
DISPATCHER: At what school?
ERIN MCLEAN: What?
DISPATCHER: Sean, Sean.
ERIN MCLEAN: My husband shot Sean.
DISPATCHER: Sean is 18?
ERIN MCLEAN: Yes.
DISPATCHER: How do you know Sean?
ERIN MCLEAN: He used to be one of my students. Will you please come save him?
DISPATCHER: Ma`am, they`re already on the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was part of an emotional and exclusive interview McLean gave to NBC News` Matt Lauer. According to the prosecution, this betrayed husband goes to his vehicle, gets a long gun, walks to the car of an 18- year-old boy, and fires as the boy is sitting there smoking a cigarette. The accident defense was first floated, but now it seems to be changing to, "I just snapped."
With us tonight, his attorney, a veteran trial lawyer, Bruce Poston out of the Tennessee jurisdiction.
Let`s go out now to Pat Brown, criminal profiler, and medical examiner Dr. Daniel Spitz, joining us from Michigan. To you, Dr. Spitz, it`s my understanding that there was a grazing defensive wound on one of the hands, and the skull was described as, quote, "blown apart." With the kid seated in the car, the adult on the outside, the use of a long gun, I don`t see how self-defense or accident even comes into play.
DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, you`re exactly right. That evidence is so critical. And it basically eliminates self-defense, and it basically eliminates accident.
It puts the victim in a defensive posture. It can`t be that there was a true altercation going on, such that the shooter was in fear of his life. So basically what you`re left with is a defenseless individual who takes a defensive posture and still takes a assault rifle bullet to the head.
GRACE: You know, I truly believe, Pat Brown and Dr. Daniel Spitz, that one piece of evidence can tell you a myriad of clues about a case. And the fact that this 18-year-old boy -- you know, this is -- he was in love for the first time with a teacher. His first sex affair with Erin McLean. He was head over heels. He`s camped out outside of her house in the car, for Pete`s sake.
But take a look at this one thing, his posture, sitting in the car, smoking a cigarette. How in the heck, Pat, are they going to be able to argue provocation, voluntary manslaughter? You`ve got to be angry and provoked. Not just words, but something more than that. I mean, where`s accident or self-defense going to play in, Pat?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: There`s no place at all, Nancy. I think the key evidence (OFF-MIKE)
GRACE: Hold on, hold on, Pat, I can`t hear you. I`m going to come right back to you. I`ll throw that one to Spitz. Go ahead, Doctor.
SPITZ: Well, what Pat was going to say was that there`s no evidence that there was any provoking, other than maybe some verbal words back and forth. The man wasn`t in the home. He may have been out in the yard, but he was sitting in a car at the time of the shooting. And the shooting was a close-range shot. The victim is in a defensive posture.
Basically, you have to throw out any possibility that this is going to be a self-defense or an accident. You really need to take a different approach to try and defend this case.
GRACE: I believe that`s what Poston is trying to do at this juncture. Bruce Poston, veteran trial lawyer handling this case out of Tennessee, do we have gunshot residue on the victim, which would suggest a close-range shooting?
BRUCE POSTON, ATTORNEY FOR ERIC MCLEAN: The autopsy would suggest a close-range shooting, yes.
GRACE: So are you saying that because of gunshot residue?
POSTON: Yes.
GRACE: Ouch.
POSTON: I think stiple (ph) is present. One thing I would say, though, is that the characterization of the defensive posture, that was the statement by the D.A. at a preliminary hearing, not subject to cross- examination. I`m sure the medical examiner would also say it would be consistent with someone having their hand on the end of the barrel.
GRACE: Well, wouldn`t that still be defensive? You`re holding your hand up to the gun`s barrel as he points it at you?
POSTON: I`m just giving you different options. The reality is that the walking to the car, all the facts that we`re talking about, aren`t actually correct, and that there are only -- and everyone knows this now -- there are only two people that actually know what happened that night.
The police were very careful to admit at the preliminary that they canvassed, there are no eyewitnesses other than Eric and Erin. They know what happened. It`s an awful lot -- and I think I do -- it`s an awful lot different than what people are portraying it. And it is going to be different.
GRACE: OK. Let`s take what we do know. Back to you, Pat Brown. Let me see if I can hear you this time, criminal profiler. We do know the boy is seated in the car. We do know that the shooter is standing. We do know the trajectory path of the bullet from entry to exit, and we know that the victim was smoking a cigarette at the time.
BROWN: Exactly. And this is it, Nancy. There`s only one reason you`re allowed to shoot somebody, in self-defense, and that is because you feel like they`re about to kill you, or about to cause you bodily harm, or they`re about to kill somebody else, or cause them bodily harm.
Now, at no point do we see Mr. McLean ever say he felt threatened. And seven minutes later, his wife on that emergency call never said, "Oh, my god, this boy is about to kill me or he`s about to hurt my husband." We never hear any of that. She`s just worried about the boy being killed. So there`s no threat by this boy at any time. This was a premeditated murder, because the boy annoyed him, made him angry, and, period, but that`s not allowed by law, you can`t kill somebody because they pissed you off.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Amanda in Missouri. Hi, Amanda.
CALLER: Hey, Nancy, love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question is for Eric`s lawyer. If Eric was so distraught, then why didn`t he call the police two days ago when the boy started camping out in front of his house?
GRACE: Good question. Bruce?
POSTON: I`m just going to give you the obvious, and that is this is a terrible embarrassment to Eric to have this going on. His wife is a teacher, and that`s why I think that the whole intruder thing and stalking the wife rather than just saying, hey, I`ve got a student, a dropout student, from West high sleeping with my wife. Please come over and get him out of my house.
GRACE: You know, let`s go out to the lawyers. Joining us, Renee Rockwell, Richard Herman, Susan Moss, and, of course, Bruce Poston. To you, Renee Rockwell, that may actually fly at trial as to why he -- let me just say -- fudged on the facts of the 911 call. But that`s the least of this guy`s worries.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, did you ever consider jury nullification? I know that`s a big word, but some people may not like the fact that he`s losing his wife, he`s losing he`s family, he`s about to snap. Who knows? He might have gone out there just with the gun to scare the guy off and the gun could have gone off. But here you have a situation where, Nancy...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: The gun could have gone off? It`s a high-powered rifle. Don`t make me pull ballistics on you. That has a trigger pull of several pounds. Just went off? A high-powered Marlin .30-30 doesn`t just go off, Renee.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, he might not have meant to kill him. And there is something...
GRACE: There`s stifling on the head (ph). That`s gunshot residue, close-range shooting, Renee.
ROCKWELL: But you may have a juror, Nancy, that can relate to somebody just losing it, and it`s not murder one.
GRACE: OK.
ROCKWELL: Manslaughter.
GRACE: You know, to you, Richard Herman, I keep hearing this overused and incorrect phrase from Ms. Rockwell, "snap." Snap is not a defense under the law. That equals, "You make me mad, so I shot you." That doesn`t exist.
HERMAN: No, but heat of passion will take it from murder one. The manslaughter...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Heat of passion, because the guy`s asleep in the first yard?
HERMAN: No, for the totality of circumstances, which will be dispositive. His son told him his wife was walking hand in hand with this guy. His daughter had bruises because the wife punished the daughter for telling his dad. There`s a lot of things here, Nancy, that seven-minute conversation he had with his wife is going to be dispositive.
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard to just stand back and wait, but we can`t do anything else. And we have a lot of people praying, and I believe that the children are protected. I don`t believe that John would harm them. If he knew the damage that he was doing to them by this behavior, I don`t feel that he would do it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An unusual silence where two young children normally play. Two-year-old Lars Baugher and his 4-year-old sister, Remi, missing now for more than 24 hours. The children`s great uncle, Pierre Remillard, says their father, John Baugher, has a history of making bad decisions in his battle with anxiety. In fact, Remillard says the courts haven`t allowed Baugher to see his children for the past several months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s right, and this would have been the first weekend that Dad had unsupervised visits with the two little children, ages 4 and 2. And what did he do? Take off with them. Their van found abandoned about 80 miles south of the Canadian border. Disturbingly inside that van, one of the children`s coats and their toys.
Joining us tonight from KXLY, reporter Karina Shagren. What`s the latest? You told me about a possible sighting last night?
KARINA SHAGREN, REPORTER, KXLY: Well, yes, the big break today, of course, are these surveillance pictures that were released by police and FBI. Those pictures very telling. They confirm to police that John Baugher and the two children were in Missoula, Montana, at least yesterday morning. They also show that Baugher has taken extreme measures to change the appearance of his children. Four-year-old Remi, with cute long, blonde hair, at least in the initial pictures that were released to us now, showing a short, darker hair. She actually appears more like a little boy than a little girl in the surveillance pictures released to us.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hold on, Karina. Take a look. KXLY`s Karina Shagren telling us about this surveillance video in a local McDonald`s. Take a look. The children`s hair apparently cut, even dyed, to escape detection. We`re looking at them right now. Karina, what else can we tell us about the surveillance video?
SHAGREN: Well, also, I don`t know if you`re looking at the McDonald`s pictures. They were actually caught twice on surveillance camera, once at McDonald`s and then four hours later at a Ross clothing store. But the pictures from McDonald`s show a woman sitting there with the family. I`m not so sure if that picture was up right now or not.
Investigators say they`re not exactly sure who that woman is or at least not telling us, anyway. They believe, though, she might be an acquaintance of John Baugher. She might be the person who drove the family from their abandoned van to Missoula. Of course, this is all speculation at this point, but at this point they don`t believe she is still with the family.
GRACE: Well, let`s take a look at it. Psychotherapist Caryn Stark, if I`m seeing it correctly, she`s holding one of the children and carrying them around. They`re all smiling and happy. These kids apparently know her. She`s very familiar with them, Caryn. Take a look.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: And you know what, Nancy? There`s no way to know, because they`re young, they`re impressionable, and this is their dad. So they may, in fact, know this woman.
But the thing that`s most amazing to me is that he`s so mentally unstable, and they allowed this guy to actually take his children when I believe he probably planned it all along.
GRACE: You know, it`s very interesting, to Captain Dan Aycock -- he is with the Walla Walla Police Department. Captain, thank you for being with us tonight. Last night, our hopes were up when we learned at the end of the show there had been a sighting. But are we sure these are the kids? Their sizes, their hair color, their hair length, are you sure this is them?
CAPT. DAN AYCOCK, WALLA WALLA POLICE: We`re very positive of that, particularly based on the videos of him. We`ve had several people look at those and are very sure that that is John and that`s the two kids.
GRACE: And, Captain, what can you tell me about how he has altered their appearance?
AYCOCK: As you can see in the videos there, the word that we got originally was that the haircuts, particularly for Remi, was done very roughly and that it was probably done with just a pair of scissors or something, so it`s a very unprofessional cut. And at the same time, their hair was darkened to some degree using some method. It didn`t work very well, but you can see, I think from the original pictures that were posted, and these ones that it is quite a change, particularly with Remi.
GRACE: Joining us also is Lars` and Remi`s uncle, Pierre Remillard. Mr. Remillard, thank you for being with us. What says your family tonight?
PIERRE REMILLARD, UNCLE OF MISSING CHILDREN: Well, we`re -- pardon me?
GRACE: What does your family have to say tonight?
REMILLARD: Well, we would, you know, greatly appreciate the return of the children and that we have a lot of compassion for John and we hope that he can help us with a positive closure. The problems that he has can be worked out for the betterment of all, and we hope that he realizes that and returns our children safely home.
GRACE: Mr. Remillard is the uncle of the children. What is your response to the judge allowing him to have unsupervised visits with these two children?
REMILLARD: I believe in my heart that I realize it`s not a perfect system, but every one involved has been doing the best that they can. And the same system we have faith in, and they are doing everything that they can to bring these children home, so we have no bad feelings. Of course, we can wish that it would happen different, but, once again, it`s not a perfect system.
GRACE: Back to Captain Dan Aycock with the Walla Walla Police Department. Captain, for all this time he has not had supervised visits with the children because of allegations made by the mother. What were the allegations?
AYCOCK: Primarily that he was somewhat unstable, and then there was also an allegation by either the mother or a friend of the family dealing with some sexual issues with the little girl.
GRACE: Could those be substantiated?
AYCOCK: No, they were not. I know there was a lot of detailed investigation. The court took some time to look into that. And the end result was that there was no determination that they did occur, nor was there determination that they did not. So in our normal fashion in our system, which Pierre has indicated, is not always pure, says, you know, they`re not guilty if you can`t prove them otherwise.
GRACE: Well, the little girl is only 4 years old.
AYCOCK: Absolutely.
GRACE: She can barely string a sentence together. I want to go to Susan Moss and Pat Brown. To you, Susan Moss, you`re a child advocate. Cutting the children`s hair that way, dyeing it so they can`t be detected, what does that say to you?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, abduction does not equal love. This man has committed a very serious crime against these children, a crime that these children will absolutely never forget. And make no mistake: The fact that he`s the father of these children makes this no less a serious kidnapping case. This is a serious as if an unknown person had kidnapped these children.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The children were last seen Saturday in nearby Wakesburg (ph), where Baugher apparently took the kids to have lunch with a friend of his. Remillard was told Baugher got into some sort of dispute there before off and hasn`t been seen since.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Two children still missing. Tonight, grainy videos have been released, showing them at a fast food restaurant, their hair cut short and even dyed to a darker color. Out to Amanda in Ohio, hi, Amanda.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: If the father was unstable, couldn`t the law have prevented him from taking the children?
GRACE: Absolutely, but a judge allowed it, Amanda. To me, that judge should be held in contempt.
I want to go back to Pat Brown and Captain Dan Aycock. Captain, have there been any pings on his cell phone? Has he used his ATM? I think I`ve got Captain Aycock with me. Captain, are you with me?
OK, let me try Pat Brown. Pat, apparently we do have ATM use. I don`t know about the pings on the cell phone; I was just asking that. But as to the ATM, he apparently is not afraid to be out in the open. What does that suggest?
BROWN: Well, I think he`s on the run, Nancy. I think he thinks he can keep going ahead of everybody. And this is what`s really frightening: It is about his ego, about not being able to be a family, about not him being part of it. So if his ego gets blown, if he thinks they`re going to catch up with him, he may give it up and go for a very bad ending, a murder-suicide, which would be horrible.
GRACE: OK. Let`s stop for a moment to remember National Guard Sergeant Greg Riewer, 28, Frazee, Minnesota, killed, Iraq. He also served in Bosnia. Avid hunter, he loved sports, motorcycles. His best friend, his brother, served beside him in Iraq. He leaves behind a large family. Greg Riewer, American hero.
NANCY GRACE signing off. Thank you for being with us. And happy birthday, Dominick. See you tomorrow night. Good night, friend.
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