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O.J. Simpson Fights Book Auction Order
Aired April 6, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: No personal checks, please! NFL Hall of Famer one-time double murder suspect O.J. Simpson in the headlines again. Why won`t he go away? The former football Hall of Famer and double murder suspect writes a how to commit double murder book and tries to turn a profit. Well, tonight he takes legal action to stop the book rights from ending up on the auction block.
The clock is ticking down to a public auction on the courthouse steps, auction profits set to go towards $38 million Simpson owes to victims` families. Why? To date, Simpson hasn`t paid one red cent.
And tonight: A college student chasing the all-American dream, his life cut short when he is gunned down in a hail of bullets. And also tonight, shock waves go through a small Missouri town, the husband of a local day care boss accused of molesting at least 40 children, that we know of, over 30 years. How was this pattern of pain allowed to occur? Tonight, we want answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down this country road on the outskirts of St. Genevieve, since the late 1970s, people around here have been dropping off their children at William Huck`s (ph) home. His wife ran a day care here. Hundreds of children have enrolled. But now the town is reeling after 60- year-old William Huck has admitted to investigators he sexually assaulted dozens of the children at his wife`s day care.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing of this nature has happened (INAUDIBLE) prosecuting this town.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a probable cause statement, investigators say Huck went into detail how he sexually assaulted his victims, some as young as 6 months old. An investigator says Huck`s wife was not aware of the abuse and it often occurred when she would leave the home to run errands. Some of the abuse occurred as recently as two weeks ago. And while the sexual assaults may have been going on for several years, police say this is the first time there have been any allegations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think a lot of it has to do with the age of the victims. I believe a lot of the victims didn`t expose the information because, frankly, some of the incidents that occurred they may not have necessarily known that what was happening was actually wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
First, to the auction block with O.J. Simpson`s how to commit double murder book. And of course, Simpson tries to stop the auction and pocket all the money himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: The idea that he would even participate in the writing or the publication of this book, get paid for it, knowing that it`s going to inflict pain not only on Nicole`s family but on his own children, and then, you know, use the money and be so blatant about it, it`s just really disgusting.
FRED GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN`S FATHER: He`s never been punished for a single act of violence in his whole life. He`s never himself paid one single penny for this judgment. Never.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s never been about the money. Would the Goldmans like to get financial justice? Absolutely. But that`s not going to bring their son back, and it`s not going to give them the type of satisfaction that I know that the Goldman family wants.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s flat-out admitted that he did it for money and received the money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom line is that this money is being used to secure the kids` future. But the truth of the matter is, is that the responsibility to raise those children and their financial future is in O.J.
O.J. SIMPSON: (INAUDIBLE) be able to secure my homestead, pay off a whole lot of bills and put my kids in a position to have their financial future totally secured.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s right. No personal checks, please. The rights to a book written by O.J. Simpson -- it`s hard for me to imagine him sitting down and actually writing a book, he probably talked to someone and they wrote the book -- about how to commit double murder is on the auction block. That`s right, the rights to this book are going to be auctioned off on the courthouse steps in just a few days, the clock ticking down. But of course, a legal battle ongoing right now. Simpson, of course, wants all the money himself. But several unusual parties have joined in to fight this.
Let`s go out to Mike Walker. You all know Mike Walker. He`s the senior editor and columnist with "The Enquirer" and author. Mike Walker, why won`t this guy go away? And what is wrong with auctioning these rights to this book? How did we even get here?
MIKE WALKER, AUTHOR, "NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: PRIVATE DIARY OF A LIFE INTERRUPTED": Well, to all the people who say -- who still aver that O.J. Simpson is innocent, I would say, Well, if he`s innocent, why would he do this disgusting book? If he cares about his children so much, why doesn`t he just retreat out of the limelight, instead of doing this, instead of doing a book that`s telling his children, yes, I killed your mommy, but I can`t quite say that. We`re going to have a subterfuge here. We`re going to do the famous scene that you see in all the old movies, where the guy suddenly wakes up and he`s got the gun and there are two dead bodies at his feet. In that case, however, you know, usually, the guy is innocent and the movie is about how he proves it.
I mean, O.J. is doing this, you know, Is this a dagger of the mind, you know, a false creation, progressing from...
GRACE: Oh, good God in heaven.
WALKER: ... the heated brain? I mean, "Macbeth," you know? Except in "Macbeth," he was guilty.
GRACE: You know, the thing that`s amazing is that we have gone through all these legal twists and turns. A, was he allowed to write this book to start with, B, set to make money off of it, and now actually fighting someone else making money off of it.
Take a listen to this. Look at this, Mike Walker. This is a quote from Simpson`s attorney. Do we have that, Liz? "The fact that Fred Goldman has shown his true colors and shown the world what a greedy pig he is seems to shock everyone but me. Am I the only sane person in this mess? This is a complete turn-around."
Elizabeth, could you please show me photos from the crime scene? That is what this is all about. How dare Simpson, through his lawyer, using a mouthpiece, say that Goldman, the father of a victim, is a pig! Look at this. Look at this, Mike Walker! I`m sure you haven`t forgotten it. You covered it.
WALKER: I have not. I wrote two books on this trial. I know that story very well. And those bloody -- those bloody marks -- I mean, it`s just blood, blood, blood, blood, blood, and that`s how you explain the whole O.J. Simpson murder case. And that this man is still out there bleeding, daring to say that he`s innocent, but yet he has come up with this book that says he`s guilty, just to make money. He`s disgusting.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: I didn`t just fall off the turnip truck or the watermelon wagon here, guys. I`ve been dealing this for eight years. I am legal. I never break the law. You constantly hearing -- all you hear out of Goldman`s mouth is money, money, money, money, money, money. We`re going to find the money.
I saw some -- about five stories last year with the various tabloids that, The IRS is closing in on O.J., his money stash. There is no money stash.
Everybody stop being so naive! Grow up. Of course I got paid.
SIMPSON: Of course I spend the money on my bills. It`s gone. And guess what? There`s people who need -- who I owe before the Goldmans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
SIMPSON: There`s other bills. Why shouldn`t they be in line before the Goldmans?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you pay other creditors?
SIMPSON: (INAUDIBLE) Why does Goldman think he`s going to be the first guy to get the money? If he was the first guy to get the money before me, they`ll all say it`s his money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, you know, I expect that comments like that from O.J. Simpson, but whoever that moron was, laughing along with him in the background with WTPS AM radio, you`re just as bad as him for egging him on.
To Mike Walker. Did I just hear him say he`s a legal person? We all know what that means. But he has been in trouble since these double murders, something to the tune of about $20,000 he stole from cable, stealing cable, the alleged assault, road rage on another person? It goes on and on.
WALKER: His daughter`s 911 call.
GRACE: His daughter`s 911. But how did we get here, Mike Walker? How are we at the point where he gets to write a book and now the rights are being auctioned on the courthouse steps?
WALKER: Because people -- it`s like the impulse that drives people to watch the freak show, you know, in a carnival. I mean, O.J. is someone that people still -- and I`ve seen it. I live down in south Florida, and I`ve seen with my own eyes how people will go up and go, Hi, O.J.! How are you? How are you? And you think, My God, even if you think this man may not have committed the murders, nonetheless, there`s no reason to treat him like a celebrity. And for him to say -- to liken Fred Goldman to the guy, the cleaner that he owes a bill to -- the difference, O.J., is that Fred Goldman has a dead son! That`s why he should be first in line.
GRACE: Joining us also is Sara Nelson, a very special guest joining us tonight from "Publishers Weekly." She`s the editor-in-chief there. Welcome, Sara.
SARA NELSON, "PUBLISHERS WEEKLY": Hi.
GRACE: Why do you think HarperCollins decided not to publish "If I Did It"? And isn`t it true, Sara, that there are basically underground or black market copies of this book out there? It`s going to get out.
NELSON: Right. Well, to answer the second question first, yes, there are copies out there. There was -- immediately after the cancellation, the original cancellation, there were copies. I believe -- I was told, I never saw it myself, but there were copies on eBay that were immediately taken down, that eBay took down.
HarperCollins, Reagan Books, canceled the book amid an outcry from the public and the media and their own media. HarperCollins is part of News Corp., and their own network shows that were supposed to broadcast the confession were having trouble getting advertisers and were having trouble getting the syndicated showings that they wanted. So it was a double cancellation. I mean, they canceled the book almost as an afterthought if they weren`t going to be able to show the TV show.
What I find interesting about this is that, obviously, a lot of people believe that there are enough people who will buy this book. I mean, the Goldmans believe that somebody will pay enough money for the rights to make it to give them some satisfaction, and that anybody who pays money for the rights to the book is doing that because they think that the book is going to sell.
GRACE: So after all that HarperCollins went through, and then they pulled back, now you believe another book publisher will buy the rights?
NELSON: Well, I mean, that`s what they`re trying to see if...
GRACE: How much do you think it will go for, Sara Nelson?
NELSON: Well, it`s not going to go for a million dollars or it`s not going to go for figures, like it did the first time around. I mean, as I understand it, the only publishers I`ve heard have expressed any interest in it are very, very small publishers who -- you know, who might pay $50,000 for it. In which case, if they sell 100,000 copies, which I`m afraid to say they might, you know, they`ll do very well financially and...
GRACE: Isn`t it true, Sara, that "Vanity Fair" got a copy?
NELSON: I had heard that. Again, I never saw...
GRACE: How do you get that? How do you get something that`s been banned, essentially?
NELSON: Well, think about it. I mean, the books had probably -- some had already probably been printed at the time that it was canceled. Certainly, even if there hadn`t been any printed, there`s a digital file of this book that existed in somebody`s computer.
GRACE: OK. So it`s so out there. It is so out there.
Let`s go to the lines. Sue in Illinois. Hi, Sue.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for having me.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, who has custody of the children? And how are they doing?
GRACE: That`s a really good question. Let`s go out to victims` rights advocate and child advocate Susan Moss. What can you tell me about the children?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The children are currently with O.J. Simpson. And with regard to this whole issue -- boo-hoo! The murderer doesn`t get his way. You know, O.J. Simpson owes $38 million to the Goldmans. If I owed $10 to Macy`s, they`d come and get their money. For this man to think that he can go and play golf and sun himself in Florida and there be no consequences, well, he`s got to think twice. And to hide behind his children, to say that his children need the money and that`s the reason why the Goldman family should not get paid, is reprehensible.
GRACE: You know, speaking of the children and speaking of Nicole Brown, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SYDNEY SIMPSON: My dad is an (DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the policeman. How may I help you?
SYDNEY SIMPSON: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry. I`m not understanding what you`re saying.
SYDNEY SIMPSON: He doesn`t (DELETED) love me or any of his kids!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911 emergency.
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, O.J. SIMPSON`S WIFE: Could you get someone over here now to 325 Gretna Green? He`s back. Please!
911 OPERATOR: OK. What does he look like?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He`s O.J. Simpson. I think you know his record. Could you just send somebody over here?
911 OPERATOR: OK. What is he doing there?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He just pulled up again!
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: ... somebody over?
911 OPERATOR: Wait a minute. What kind of car is he in?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He`s in a white Bronco. But first of all, he broke the back door down to get in, OK?
911 OPERATOR: Wait a minute. What`s your name?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: Nicole Simpson.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is he the sportscaster or whatever?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: Yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us right now is a special guest, Kim Goldman. This is murder victim Ron Goldman`s sister. You probably all remember her from the trial. Kim, it`s a real pleasure to have you with us. Thank you for being here.
KIM GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON GOLDMAN: Thanks, Nancy.
GRACE: Kim, I imagine this was a very difficult decision for your dad and your family to make, to fight for these book rights to be auctioned. Tell me, after years and years of battling O.J. Simpson, it`s not just about the money, it`s the point, I would imagine. Explain.
GOLDMAN: Well, you know, it`s not a difficult decision to fight. It`s a difficult decision as to what to do with the remedy. So I guess, you know, for us, it`s never really been about a financial gain for our behalf, it`s really about holding him accountable. We were awarded compensatory and punitive damages, and punitive means to punish. And unfortunately, or fortunately, in our system, the only way to do it is a financial one.
So it doesn`t become a difficult decision when you`re faced with two choices. One, you have to fight, otherwise he completely gets away with murder. Or two, you know, we fight and we may end up with something on the back end of it. I don`t know. I mean, this is a painful process for us. It`s not easy. You know, our lawyers are working hard. And this is what they`re telling us is what we need to do. I don`t know what another course of action could be.
GRACE: I don`t think fight -- the continued fight against O.J. Simpson that your family is leading is a difficult decision. I mean specifically to these book rights. What do you think will happen? What do you hope will happen, Kim Goldman?
GOLDMAN: Well, the truth is, you know, for us to fight the book rights situation -- you know, we tried to take an asset away. And you know, the asset is what will be used to satisfy the judgment, whether it`s a dollar or two dollars. We have no idea. The point for us was to take away his opportunity to continue to glorify the crimes and to profit from it.
He already did, to the tune of $800,000-something, which his kids never saw the light of day. So for us, this was the only course of action, to take away the rights for him to continue profiting. And as a result of that, the court ordered them to be auctioned off to satisfy the judgment. There`s no other option.
GRACE: Joining us also tonight is the director of the crime victim`s office in Houston, Andy Kahan. Andy, what do you make of it? I mean, if someone is going to gain from this in any way, why shouldn`t it be the crime victims?
ANDY KAHAN, DIR. VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: Oh, look at the double standard! It`s not OK for Simpson to profit, but it`s not OK the Goldmans? Give me a break. You know, my hat`s off to Fred and Kim for...
GRACE: And I would hardly consider this a profit after what they have been through. A profit? This isn`t a profit.
KAHAN: Oh, absolutely. I mean, obviously, they can`t bring Ron back, but I certainly admire the Goldmans` tenacity, their bull-dogged determination to ensure that Simpson doesn`t continue to make blood money for what he was found civilly liable, and that was for the gruesome, horrific murder of two human beings, no ifs, ands or buts.
And it`s about time victims do what Kim and her dad are doing in saying, Enough is enough, you`re not going to make any more money off the pain and misery and grief that you have put my family through. You know, the criminal justice system has made it extremely difficult for the Goldmans to collect on a civil judgment, even though he has all these tangible assets. This is really the only avenue for them to do, and that is to get this book. And I hope they do whatever they want to do with the money. It won`t bring Ron back, but it`s the next best thing.
Quick break. I want to tell you about tonight`s "Case Alert." An FBI agent loses his life in a shootout with three suspected bank robbers. Police say the serial bank robbery suspects caught leaving a bank in Reddington, New Jersey, when a shootout ensued, then a chase. Fifty-two- year-old Barry Bush joined the FBI in `87, serving in Kansas and recently Newark, New Jersey, Bush the 50th FBI agent killed in the line of duty. Tonight, our hearts and prayers to the family of Special Agent Barry Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Goldman family wants to place O.J. Simpson in a virtual jail cell, a jail cell that he should have been placed in many years ago, but the court system failed to do that. It is now up to us not only as attorneys, as a court, but it`s also up to us as a society to place him in that virtual jail cell. Don`t let him leave it, and certainly don`t let him publish the filth that he wants to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s right, the rights to O.J. Simpson`s book, how to commit double murder, is on the auction block. Of course, Simpson fights it to the bitter end. He wants the money himself.
Out to the lines. Anne in Illinois. Hi, Anne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I keep hearing about the Goldman family getting their money, but what about the Brown family? They were awarded money, too.
GRACE: Interesting. I want to go to you, Mike Walker. Why is Denise Brown opposed to this?
WALKER: Because she feels that this whole thing is doing nothing but dragging this on. They would really like to just have closure and stop talking about all of this. If Fred -- Fred Goldman -- and I understand exactly where Fred Goldman`s coming from, but the fact that he`s doing this is helping to keep this whole thing alive. You know, if you don`t have the opposite, the plus doesn`t do much.
GRACE: Well, in my thinking -- to you, Jonathan Polak -- this is the Goldman attorney. As long as evil exists, as long as there is injustice, you have to keep fighting it. You can`t sit back and just let it fester.
JONATHAN POLAK, GOLDMAN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Absolutely not. We`re going to keep...
GRACE: Well, I guess you could.
POLAK: ... pressing on and pressing on. No, we are not going to sit back and allow this guy, this known killer, to continue to profit from this. We`re going to continue pressing on. Even if this book gets sold and it`s published, that`s not the end of the story. We`re going to keep fighting until his last dying day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMPSON: I don`t have any bank accounts in the Bahamas. I don`t have any extra money anyplace. The Goldmans -- I don`t have the obligation to make money and take it to the Goldmans. I don`t have those obligations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, let me use a technical legal term. That`s total BS!
Out to you, Mike Walker, senior editor and columnist with "The Enquirer." Every time I see this guy, he`s at a party having a bottle of Dom. You know what? I have never once gone out and ordered a bottle of Dom, OK?
No, no! No, no! Liz, take that down. I don`t need to see Simpson gyrating with a bunch of Nicole Brown look-alikes.
He`s at golf courses. He`s at luxury hotels. How can he say he doesn`t have any money?
WALKER: And he`s at these sports conventions signing -- and we cataloged this at "The Enquirer." He signs the autograph for the guy, the guy slips him the $75 check, whatever, it goes to a bag man. We took pictures of all this. And we showed the bag man going out the door, and then we were waiting at the airport as the bag man, still with the bag, got on the plane. That`s how O.J. makes money, slips it to a bag man and off it goes. And he goes, I don`t make any money.
GRACE: And the only way really -- is Kim Goldman still with me, Liz? Kim, it seems to me the only way you could get that money under the law is to follow Simpson around to all of his signings all over the country and have a sheriff right there with a court order to grab the money. You can`t do that.
GOLDMAN: Well, you know what? That`s the point. You know, the system was very -- was very -- you know -- we`re thankful for the system to give us the judgment, but they don`t help us to enforce it. So our job is to do whatever we can within the law to go after him. He`s incredibly protected. He has a team of attorneys that are helping him, you know, do whatever he can within his rights to avoid paying this judgment. And we have to be incredibly crafty and ingenious and do double-time effort work to get ahead of him in order to do anything. And it`s difficult. This is not an easy task.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down this country road on the outskirts of St. Genevieve, since the late 1970s, people around here have been dropping off their children at William Huck`s home. His wife ran a daycare here. Hundreds of children have enrolled. But now the town is reeling after 60- year-old William Huck has admitted to investigators he sexually assaulted dozens of the children at his wife`s daycare.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing of this nature that I can remember has ever been prosecuted in this county.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a probable cause statement, investigators say Huck went into detail how he sexually assaulted his victims, some as young as 6 months old. An investigator says Huck`s wife was not aware of the abuse, and it often occurred when she would leave the home to run errands. Some of the abuse occurred as recently as two weeks ago. And while the sexual assaults may have been going on for several years, police say this is the first time there have been any allegations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think a lot of it has a lot to do with the age of the victims. I believe a lot of the victims didn`t expose the information because, frankly, some of the incidents that occurred they may not necessarily have known that what was happening was actually wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For several years? Try 30 years and 40 victims that we know of. The husband of a daycare worker preying on little children, as young as 4 years old, for 30 years, this man was not stopped. Why? To Todd Frankel with the "St. Louis Post Dispatch," what happened, Todd?
TODD FRANKEL, REPORTER, "ST. LOUIS POST DISPATCH": Well, two weeks ago, the parents of a 4-year-old boy learned some fairly disturbing things from the boy. He said it in a very innocent way, but they learned some stuff, and so they called authorities.
And the authorities began to investigate, and then they went to talk with this William Huck, according to their probable cause statement, and what he had to tell them just shocked them. Actually, at first, he just admitted, according to the police, to abusing the boy and his sister. They went back and re-interviewed him two days later, and that`s when he let the bombshell out that he had been abusing kids over 30 years.
GRACE: Thirty years.
To Alison Arngrim with the National Association to Protect Children and Molestation Victims, you probably recognize Alison. She was Nellie on "Little House on the Prairie." And a lot of those tantrums she threw on air was the result of her being a child molestation victim.
Alison, the little boy came home, 4 years old, and was coughing, I believe it goes, and the parents tried to find out what was wrong. He said, yes, this is what happens to me at daycare, when Mr. So-and-so, and then began to describe in child-like terms what had been going on, 4 years old, Alison.
ALISON ARNGRIM, MOLESTATION VICTIM: That`s the one thing about this story that I`m at least clinging to as a sign of hope. Thirty years ago, if a 4-year-old had come forward to his parents and said this thing at daycare, would they have known to ask? Would it have occurred to him that he meant that?
A 4-year-old finally did feel safe enough to tell his parents, and his parents were tipped off that that`s what he meant. They understood him, and they believed him, and they went to the police.
I think the reason we`re first hearing about this, we may sadly hear that some of the victims from 30 years ago told their parents or tried to tell someone, and they didn`t know what they were talking about because they were just too little.
GRACE: To clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders, I think Alison Arngrim is right. I know when I would prosecute child molestation cases, children speak in their own language. They often don`t remember times and dates. It`s hard for them to have details. How can parents understand what children are trying to tell them?
DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree with Alison, too, Nancy. Parents are more cognizant. They need to look at any changes in a child`s baseline behavior.
If a child repeatedly starts crying and resisting going some place, pay attention. Ask them if bad things happen. If a child suddenly starts bed wetting, doesn`t want to go to school, becomes moody and irritable, something is wrong. Many parents are teaching about bad touch, good touch. Ask your child about bad touch.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, three veteran trial lawyers, Sandy Schiff out of New York, Don Papcsy out of New York, and also, again with us, child advocate and lawyer, Susan Moss.
To you, Sandy Schiff, there`s going to be an issue of how many people were molested, now many of them adults. It`s been going on 30 years. What about the theory of the statute of limitations here?
SANDRA RUTH SCHIFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That does not apply. But what really is important is for them to cut a deal quickly and spare the children from having to testify.
GRACE: Cut a deal? Unless it involves 30 consecutive life sentences, I would just say, "Hell, no!" That`s another technical legal term.
To you, Don Papcsy, statutes of limitations on cases like this can run from seven to 10 years. But what about when they`re nearly discovered? For instance, when a child has repressed memory, then they remember it, does the statute start running then?
DON PAPCSY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, it`s when they realize. Usually in a case like this, a lot of states have statutes that are unlimited. But in a case like this, when they realize that the damage has been done, that`s when they can bring the case.
GRACE: So how does that work, Susan Moss? Because we know a statute can run, typically starting at the time of the offense, and then seven years later, it`s too late. Forget it. You`re not going to court. So how does this work, Susan?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely, it`s a huge problem. But in this case, over 30 years, with 40 victims, there are going to be enough unfortunate victims to come forward to bring all the charges to keep him away for the rest of his life. Absolutely, no deal. This is a case that must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. This man must never see the light of day again.
GRACE: Back to you, Sandy Schiff. I`m a little surprised. I mean, I know you`re a veteran defense attorney, you`ve represented a ton of criminals, but I`m surprised you would actually say, "Cut a deal." Cut a deal, some sweetheart deal? This guy will be out in 10 years doing it again?
SCHIFF: Having had to represent someone accused of child molestation and having to account for the fact that the people testifying in court were young children who would have to be re-victimized by reliving and recounting the experience, the prosecutor would take that into effect to protect the children. And it is probably the best thing to do.
GRACE: Oh, Sandy, Sandy! What children want, as they grow up, and grow older, is to look back and think, "Somebody went to court and fought for them and protected them against people like this child molester." Of course they don`t want to discuss it in court. That is common.
But protect what children? What about future children? John Hudak is with us, the executive director of the Community Counseling Center. You`re planning a town hall meeting. What`s it about?
JOHN HUDAK, EXEC. DIR., COMMUNITY COUNSELING CENTER: And we`re trying to pull together everyone in the community who has expressed some concern regarding this terrible situation. We`re inviting, certainly, the families. We`re inviting those adult victims that may have been affected. We`re trying to bring together a variety of different professionals.
HUDAK: To address concerns, to let people know what sources are available for them, and how they might link up with those services.
GRACE: Mr. Hudak, thank God you`re not just sitting back talking about it, you`re actually doing something about it. That town hall meeting is, what, Tuesday night, Mr. Hudak?
HUDAK: It`s Tuesday night at the VFW hall in St. Genevieve. I`m sorry, it`s Monday night at the St. Genevieve VFW hall from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. We`ll have counselors available if folks need to speak with someone individually.
GRACE: I think that the very first step, for instance, for this child to be able to tell his parents, and then recognize that the parents do something about it. And what these parents did, I was so happy about.
To you, Alison Arngrim, is they immediately, after they realized what the kid was talking about, they stopped talking about it and they called police, so they can`t be accused of coaching or counseling this kid into some kind of statement. And then professionals came in and talked to the kid.
ARNGRIM: Yes, they did the right thing, and that`s the thing for this child. It`s someone outside his family has done this, so now at least his universe isn`t shattered, his family has stood by him, and are trying to keep him safe and show that he`s loved.
And as far as children testifying, they`re very young, but statistically they`ve interviewed children who have participated in at least seeing their molester go to jail or testify, and it tends to be actually good for them in the long run. They tend to report feeling more closure.
GRACE: I agree. To you, on the lines, Tinka in Alaska. Hi, Tinka.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question is, since we know that he was molesting the children while his wife was away running errands, did he have a right to stay with those children? Did he have a police background check? Did he have a daycare license...
GRACE: Excellent question, Tinka.
Todd Frankel, what do we know? Did the parents even realize this guy was taking care of their kids?
FRANKEL: I think they did know that the husband was helping out. But they ran such a small operation that they didn`t need to be licensed by the state, so they didn`t have to meet the state requirements for background checks or anything else.
GRACE: Well, I think a lot of it, Todd, is going to boil down to Trial 101, repressed memories, which means the prosecution is going to have to go back in time and find out if some adult victims of child molestation can recall and then testify.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CANDY ARNOLD, MOTHER OF MURDER VICTIM: It was Sunday morning, the 6th of February, 2005, Super Bowl Sunday, which is a day we always celebrated as a family, because we loved football. About 7:30 in the morning, there was a knock on the door, and it was the police. And they had stated that they had come to give us some information on Nick. And we figured, oh, you know, college kids, something happened, they got into some little mischief or whatever.
But looking at the face of the police officer that came to give us the information, I didn`t think that was the case. And that`s when he let us know that Nicholas had been killed in a drive-by shooting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This young man, Nicholas Arnold, just 20 years old, chasing the American dream, the all-American dream. He was great on the football field and off. His life cut short, gunned down in a hail of bullets. And still tonight, no answers.
But catch this: The people involved in his shooting actually gave confessions, but, because of a technicality, they were released. What have the police done? What have the local prosecutors done to revamp this case and go forward with the murder one prosecution?
Why is the case sitting on the shelf? Is it because he`s a minority? Is it because the victim`s family aren`t rich, demanding justice? I don`t know. But they know who the killer is. Why is there no justice in the case of this young man?
I want to go out to the victim`s mother. Candy Arnold is joining us tonight. You`ve met Candy before. We are not letting go of this case. What is the latest, Candy?
ARNOLD: Nancy, right now we`re working -- they`re working on canvassing the neighborhood still, putting up billboards, a billboard in the neighborhood, and just trying to get people to come forward. The biggest problem here is that people are really afraid to come forward and say anything. They`re in fear of their lives.
GRACE: Why do you say that? Do you believe the perpetrator is part of a gang?
ARNOLD: Yes, I do. I truly do believe that.
GRACE: Why did they target your boy?
ARNOLD: Nick was not the target. Nick just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. He didn`t know anybody there in Tucson besides the kids that he was with. So he was not the target. I really believe that the vehicle that he was driving was the target.
GRACE: So it`s Tucson police and Tucson prosecutors that aren`t going forward with the case?
ARNOLD: Because a judge threw out a confession that was not coerced. That confession was not coerced. He gave that confession freely.
GRACE: Who is the judge?
ARNOLD: You know, Nancy, right of the top of my head, I can`t even think of the judge`s name, but I think he should probably be taken off the bench.
GRACE: I sure would like to know his name, Candy. To say that this confession was coerced, and now the killers of your boy -- and he is just so handsome and doing so well in college, doing so well -- to have his life cut short like that.
You know, there`s more than one way to skin a cat. Let`s go out to the lawyers joining us, Sandy Schiff, Don Papcsy, and Susan Moss. Yes, there may have been eyewitness, to the three of you, that saw this shooting go down. They may not want to come forward, but what about the other people in the car, Sandy?
Can`t we get -- I would be on them like a cheap suit. If they threw out a gum wrapper, they would be hauled in on littering until finally they agreed to talk.
SCHIFF: In answer to the point you`re making, I don`t think the Fifth Amendment is a technicality, Nancy. And you can say what you want, but this judge upheld the law.
GRACE: Do you have any reason to believe it was coerced, Sandy? Or are you just spouting that off?
SCHIFF: Well, it says here...
GRACE: No, look up. I want to see you look at me and tell me why you think it was coerced.
SCHIFF: ... judge`s opinion. First of all, he asked for an attorney, and he wanted to take the Fifth nine times.
SCHIFF: The police continued to interrogate him in a custodial setting. He was chained. He was abused, assaulted.
GRACE: Abused? Whoa, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean abused?
GRACE: No, I`m sorry, I couldn`t hear you. Liz was talking in my ear. What do you mean abused?
SCHIFF: Threatened. I said threatened.
GRACE: You said abused. You said abused.
SCHIFF: Well, he was crying, and I don`t think...
GRACE: I guess he was crying, because he got caught.
SCHIFF: That`s a conclusion that you came to, Nancy...
GRACE: No, you have said abused. Was he beaten? Susan, was he beaten?
MOSS: I don`t believe he was beaten. I do believe he was crying for his mother, and that would make sense, because he was facing a murder rap, and he`s the one who did it.
However, now the police have their job out for them and hopefully they`re doing their job, for getting more evidence to try to put these guys away. If they have admitted it once, chances are they have admitted it to friends, to family members, to acquaintances. Now the real work begins.
These charges were withdrawn without -- were thrown out without prejudice. They can bring back these charges, and they must.
GRACE: I have to agree with something that Sandy said to Don Papcsy. When you ask for a lawyer, and you don`t get a lawyer, anything after that point is ruled inadmissible. The cops screwed up. She`s absolutely right.
But I don`t see one thing in the record about this guy, this killer, being coerced, or being beaten, or being tortured or abused. With that, I disagree with Sandy Schiff. What about it, Don?
PAPCSY: Well, I don`t think it really matters if he was or he wasn`t. I think he was chained to a table or handcuffed to a table why they interrogated him.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa. No, no, no, we have defendants in court in interrogation all the time that would slit your throat if they weren`t chained to the table.
PAPCSY: That`s true, but he wasn`t in general population. He was under police...
PAPCSY: ... scrutiny. They were sitting right with him the entire time.
PAPCSY: I think, with all due respect, I mean, Nicholas Arnold seemed like he was an exceptional young man. And with all due respect to his mother that`s on the show, and obviously it`s a tragedy what happened to him, but these are not technicalities. These are our constitutional rights. And I applaud Judge Hantman, which is his name, in Pima County, in Arizona. I went to Arizona State University myself, and I applaud him.
GRACE: Great. Can we get back to the point?
PAPCSY: Well, I applaud him, because he is sticking up for...
GRACE: That`s your point tonight, that you applaud the judge?
PAPCSY: No, it`s not my point.
GRACE: OK, what`s your point?
PAPCSY: The point is, is that he saw the statement that was suppressed. He suppresses the statement because the person invoked his rights nine times, and then, obviously, the case didn`t hold up otherwise.
GRACE: OK, you know what? What I`m getting at, and I hear you and Sandy Schiff loud and clear, when you ask for a lawyer, stop questioning. Susan, there are more than one ways to prove a case. Without the confession, where can police go?
SCHIFF: Well, what they`re doing is canvassing the neighborhood. They`ve got to do that and make sure that they have the police force to make that work. They need to go again and again and again.
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who have touched our lives.
GRACE: Medical records show Anna Nicole Smith was prescribed 600 pills.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were her caretakers and the people who were administering these drugs to her? Somebody bears the responsibility for that young woman being dead here today.
GRACE: Police say Spector murdered actress Lana Clarkson with a single shot in the mouth, there inside his own mansion on their very first date. Right.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: He said terribly disparaging, awful, expletive-filled things about women and then went on to say they should all be dead.
GRACE: All I care about is how actress Lana Clarkson managed to get a single gunshot with one of these -- it`s a .38 caliber bullet -- one of these in the mouth.
A lady, 911 police dispatcher, clocks out at 1:00 in the afternoon and vanishes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last Saturday, we had almost 230 volunteers that showed up for about an eight-hour-long search in the southern part of Walker County.
GRACE: They always look at the husband first and the boyfriend. Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, because those are the people who may have motive, especially if you`re talking about a divorce.
GRACE: We`ll continue with the story of missing police 911 dispatcher Theresa Parker.
In 30 years of banking, this guy never missed a single meeting. His wife says he got up, and he thought it was Saturday, and was lounging around the house until she told him, no, it`s Thursday, go to work. Where is Keith Gores?
GRACE: Tonight, let`s stop to remember an American hero. We didn`t get to tell you enough about him last night. Army Staff Sergeant Jason Arnette, 24, Amelia, Virginia, killed, Iraq. On the third tour of duty, he also served in Korea, wanting to enlist since age 3. He traveled to Guatemala with his church, building an orphanage. Loved sports, soccer, the outdoors, dreamed of being a history teacher. He leaves behind mother, Michelle, and widow, Shenandoah. Jason Arnette, American hero.
Thank you to our guests, but biggest thank you to you for being with us. A special good night tonight from the New York control room. Night, Liz. Night, Charles. To all of you, a wonderful and peaceful Passover and Easter, as you head into the holy weekend. NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.