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Showbiz Tonight
Imus Mess; Anna Nicole Smith Diaries to be Auctioned
Aired April 13, 2007 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
A.J. HAMMER, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT ANCHOR: The stunning Don Imus outrage and the stunning connection to Rosie O`Donnell and Halle Berry. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York.
BROOKE ANDERSON, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT ANCHOR: And big Beatles news, the shocking thing John Lennon`s son did to some of his late father`s most famous songs. I`m Brooke Anderson in Hollywood. TV`s most provocative entertainment show starts right now.
HAMMER: On SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, the Anna Nicole Smith baby battle. Tonight, new developments in the explosive courtroom custody showdown in the Bahamas. Is there a secret deal between Larry "Daddy" Birkhead and Anna`s mom. Plus the ugly fight and threats over Anna Nicole`s secret diaries. SHOWBIZ TONIGHT with the man who put them up for sale.
The outrage over Imus. Tonight a SHOWBIZ TONIGHT special event, the most outspoken, vocal critics and supporters of Don Imus right here on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, answering the tough controversial questions. Are the people who fired Imus hypocrites?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON IMUS, RADIO SHOW HOST: These young women deserve to know that it was not said with malice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Is his canning censorship and will this help or hurt race relations?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Ordinary people were assaulted verbally on federally regulated radio.
(END VIDEO CLIP
HAMMER: SHOWBIZ TONIGHT with an explosive, no-holds barred debate. The outrage over Imus.
Friday night is on. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York.
ANDERSON: HI there. I`m Brooke Anderson in Hollywood. And tonight, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT with the man who is selling Anna Nicole Smith`s secret diaries, and why he`d better get ready for a nasty battle. That is coming up.
HAMMER: But first tonight, the outrage over Imus. This has been an unbelievable day, capping off an unbelievable week that led to the firing of Don Imus from both his radio and TV shows for his racially charged and downright degrading remarks about the Rutgers women`s basketball team. If anything, the anger and the fury burned even more deeply today, touching on so many issues that have gotten America all riled up from coast to coast.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HAMMER (voice-over): Don is gone, fired by CBS Radio from the radio show he`s hosted for 30 years, and booted from MSNBC which simulcasts the radio show. But as Don Imus` broadcast career goes up in flames, the anger over his fate and his comments against the Rutgers women`s basketball team continues to burn. And it`s launched a nationwide debate on language --
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, COURT TV ANCHOR: You`ve got to watch yourself. You`ve got to be careful. You`ve got to be respectful.
HAMMER: Politics --
TOM DELAY, FORMER HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: It`s amazing to me that the left is treating verbal offenses as if they were crime.
HAMMER: And degrading language in talk radio and pop culture as a whole.
ESSENCE CARSON, RUTGERS BASKETBALL PLAYER: I know that rap, hip-hop, and other music of that genre has desensitized America and this world, so that some of the words that they choose to use in the lyrics. I understand that, but that doesn`t make it any more right.
HAMMER: SHOWBIZ TONIGHT has the latest on the divisive fallout from this heated controversy. And we ask, what can come out of all of this? SHOWBIZ TONIGHT takes you back to the comment that launched a thousand protests and ended a long radio career. Don Imus on his show April 4th talking about the Rutgers women`s basketball team.
IMUS: That`s some nappy-headed hoes there. I`m going to tell you that.
HAMMER: What followed was a very long week of Imus`s apologies --
IMUS: These young women need to know it was not said with malice.
HAMMER: Very loud protests --
SHARPTON: Ordinary people were assaulted verbally on federally regulated radio.
HAMMER: Big money advertiser pull outs, all leading to Imus losing his TV gig --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Effective immediately, MSNBC will no longer simulcast the "Imus in the Morning" program.
HAMMER: And radio gig.
KATIE COURIC, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: CBS today fired nationally syndicated radio host Don Imus.
HAMMER: The very night he officially lost his radio gig, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT can tell you that Imus met personally with the Rutgers women`s basketball team.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently it was a very wrenching thing. The women wanted to know, more than anything else, why them.
HAMMER: Corky Somasko (ph) of the "New York Daily News" tells SHOWBIZ TONIGHT about the emotional three-hour meeting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From what we`ve been told, it started off very tense and it became somber. In the end, Don Imus spoke privately with each one of the players.
HAMMER: Imus` wife Deirdre, subbing for husband on his former radio show, talked about the gathering.
DEIRDRE IMUS, WIFE OF DON IMUS: They gave us the opportunity to listen to what they had to say and why they`re hurting and how awful this is, and I have to say that these women are unbelievably courageous and beautiful women.
HAMMER: Then she made a startling statement, blasting the hate mail that the Rutgers women are receiving.
D. IMUS: One thing I want to say is that the hate mail that`s being sent to them must stop. It`s -- this is the wrong -- if you want to send hate mail, send it to my husband.
HAMMER: The coach of the Rutgers team says her players accept Imus` apology, but they`re still angry.
C. VIVIAN STRINGER, RUTGERS BASKETBALL COACH: We are in the process of forgiving. We still find his statements to be unacceptable, and this is an experience that we will never forget.
HAMMER: That`s for sure. This Imus experience is one that no one will forget.
(on camera): I`m here at CBS headquarters in New York City, where CBS Radio endured protest after protest during the whole Imus mess. Legions of activists and politicians and commentators weighed in on the whole explosive controversy. I wanted to see if people were satisfied with how things turned out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I think he got screwed. I think the man just made a mistake, and they should have gave him the same opportunity as anybody else to apologize for what he did.
HAMMER: So what do you think about the fact Imus was let go?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it`s great that he was let go because of the racist comments that he gave was really whacked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MSNBC and CBS overreacted in firing him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, to be honest, I really don`t like what he said. That was uncalled for. You can`t judge people like that and especially women. I mean, not only women, but everyone.
HAMMER: So it goes, a fired giant of talk who has now provoked a serious talk around the nation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HAMMER: I really did get a lot of mixed reaction when I was out there on the street today. And coming up a SHOWBIZ TONIGHT special event, the most outspoken critics and supporters of Don Imus are going to be right here on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, and they will be held to the task of answering the tough controversial questions, such as: are the people who fired Imus hypocrites? Is his canning censorship? And will this help or hurt race relations? SHOWBIZ TONIGHT has an explosive, no holds barred debate coming up at 30 minutes past the hour.
So what do you think of all this? We know you`re all fired up. Let us know for our SHOWBIZ TONIGHT question of the day. Here is what we`re asking: Imus gets canned; was it the right decision? Go to the website to vote, CNN.com/SHOWBIZTONIGHT. You can email us at SHOWBIZTONIGHT@CNN.com.
SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, the only entertainment news show where you can express your opinion on video, so do it. Send us a video email from the website CNN.com/SHOWBIZTONIGHT.
ANDERSON: Tonight, here we go again. We thought this whole custody matter over Anna Nicole Smith`s baby Dannielynn was close to being over. Remember Larry Birkhead was proven to be her biological father earlier this week, but not so fast. We may have yet to wait another week before anything is resolved. With me tonight in Los Angeles, investigative journalist Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane is also the author of the soon to be released book -- here it is -- "Secrets Can Be Murder." Hi, Jane.
JANE VELEZ MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Hey, how are you, Brooke?
ANDERSON: Doing well. You know, as I said, we all thought today may have been the day. We were expecting a big showdown in the Bahamas, in court. Court TV reporting Birkhead and Arthur`s attorneys asked for more time. More time for what, Jane? Shouldn`t they just give Birkhead the baby?
MITCHELL: Well, that`s certainly what Larry feels. Apparently they are going to sit down, Virgie and Larry, mano a mano, and try to work this out without the lawyers present. There`s a lot of irony here. Obviously Larry is very disappointed by this. He would have liked to have gotten custody today. So Virgie, in trying to guarantee in writing a role, may actually be poisoning the very relationship she`s trying to guarantee.
Because let`s say she does get something in writing. Then when she shows up to visit the baby, she`s not going to get as warm a reception as she would have had she simply trusted Larry to do the right thing, and he has all along said, hey, she`s the grandmother. I`m going to let her in. I`m going to give her a role, but she wants something in writing.
ANDERSON: Yes, you don`t want something like this to backfire in your face. Everybody has been talking about How Virgie Arthur has been fighting tooth and nail for this baby that she wants joint custody. And, you know, Howard K. Stern came out of the courtroom and he sort of made it sound like Virgie Arthur is the one who is making this whole thing drag out. Take a listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD K. STERN, BOYFRIEND OF ANNA NICOLE SMITH: At least informally the transition period has already begun. Larry spent the majority of the last few days over at the house getting to know Dannielynn. He`s been changing diapers. He`s been feeding her. He`s been playing with her. And if you ask my opinion, he`s doing a great job. If it were up to me, the formal order, in terms of giving Larry full custody, would have occurred today. But, unfortunately, it didn`t, and this court adjourned things and people can draw their own conclusions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: OK, what`s Stern trying to do here? Is he trying to make sure that he doesn`t become the odd man out?
MITCHELL: Well, you know, in game theory, which I studied in college, they said three is a very unstable number, where there would always be shifting alliances and actually that`s exactly what`s happened. I think Howard K. Stern is actually showing his more gallant side now. I think he`s making the right moves.
He`s being gracious about this transition. He`s realizing I`m not going to win. I might as well do the right thing and allow Larry access, and that`s exactly what he has done. I`ve criticized Howard K. Stern a lot, but right now I will praise him for that action.
ANDERSON: Well, What do you think, is there any chance whatsoever that Virgie Arthur could get custody of this baby along with Birkhead or, Jane, is she being delusional here?
MITCHELL: Well, she might be delusional. Maybe she`s being very crafty. I have heard speculation in published reports today that this might be, and I say might, because I have no guarantee of this, might be some kind of gambit to ultimately go after full custody of little Dannielynn for the purposes of then going after the estate of J. Howard Marshall which, as we know, could be worth half a billion dollars to whoever wins.
So now the word money is entering the equation and she has only herself to blame by putting herself out there like this.
ANDERSON: You know, Howard K. Stern recently hired that bulldog attorney Lin Wood to go after the media and anybody who they say maligns his client. Wood has filed a lawsuit against Virgie Arthur`s attorney, John O`Quinn for alleged defamatory comments O`Quinn made about murder, misconduct concerning Stern. Just a few second left here, but it looks like Stern`s looking to try to win at least one court case here, Jane. Is it just the beginning? What do you think?
MITCHELL: It could be. I think the devil is in the details, Brooke, of the words said. I`ve discussed his behavior as an enabler and svengali, but that`s a judgment about his judgment. It`s not accusing him specifically of criminal behavior. Those who have crossed the line and accused him of being involved in criminal behavior like murder could have opened themselves up to a lawsuit.
ANDERSON: And he may be after them. OK, Jane Velez-Mitchell, as always thanks for taking the time with us.
MITCHELL: Thank you Brooke.
ANDERSON: All right, more shocking Anna Nicole Smith stuff coming up. The ugly fight that threatens and threats over her secret diaries. Was she physically abused and what about her relationship with her mother? The guy at the center of the battle right here with me next.
HAMMER: Also, the outrage over Imus. Tonight, it`s a SHOWBIZ TONIGHT special event. Imus` most outspoken critics and supporters joining us right here on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, as we ask the tough controversial questions. It`s an explosive no-holds barred debate. The outrage over Imus.
ANDERSON: And some big beatles news today. The stunning thing John Lennon`s son is doing with the group`s most famous songs. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. I`m Brooke Anderson in Hollywood. Tonight, another explosive development in the Anna Nicole Smith case. Howard K. Stern says two of Anna Nicole`s diaries were stolen and he`s threatening to sue. Last month the contents of the diaries were sold for more than half a million dollars on eBay. Anna Nicole wrote them in 1992 and `94. Juicy secrets in there, her love for her then husband, 90- year-old billionaire J. Howard Marshall. She details her drug use. She wrote of her weight struggle.
The diaries are scheduled to be auctioned off again this weekend. We`ll explain that in just a minute. With me tonight is the man who owned Anna`s diaries and sold them the first time, Thomas Riccio of Universal Rarities, Fine Collectibles and Memorabilia. Thomas, hi there.
THOMAS RICCIO, UNIVERSAL RARITIES: Hi. How are you?
ANDERSON: Doing well. OK, what do you say, Thomas? He says the diaries are stolen. Did you or somebody else steal those diaries?
RICCIO: No. A lot of people in the business know these diaries have been around for years. They were discarded. They were legally obtained. The guy who had them for several years was asking a little bit more than what they were worth at the time Anna was around. After her son passed away, there was some interest in them. He couldn`t find them.
And then after she passed away, there was a little bit of a bidding war with him. We had an investor involved and bought them, put them up on auction where they broke records. And then they bought them for the media rights, the winner, and they`re now actually reselling them. They`re up for sale tomorrow at HeritageAuctions.com. They`ll be on sale tomorrow.
ANDERSON: So the man who bought them is reselling them to make a profit?
RICCIO: Well, basically, he`s made his money from the media rights. He did a book deal and some other media stuff in Europe. And after April 10th, he was free to resell them for whatever collectibility value they have. And they`re at www.HeriageAuctions.com, HA.com. Tomorrow they`re going for sale over there.
ANDERSON: OK, well, why do you think Stern`s attorney is so worked up about this? These diaries were written long before they met.
RICCIO: Well, I understand him going after things to do with her estate. From what I understand, there are some diaries out there that maybe have been elicitly gotten. In fact, we were approached with some and we didn`t represent them, but these ones here, everyone in the hobby, every auction house knows that these have been around for several years and these are not the ones from the Bahamas. These are not the ones that were embezzled by a former person close to Anna Nicole. These are the two that were legitimate.
I think right now, actually, we were contacted -- we did contact him and I think he`s aware of that. And he has responded in the right way to that at this point. And we have responded with requested documentation that we faxed over to his office. So I don`t think that`s an issue. But there are other ones out there, which we are helping him with right now.
ANDERSON: OK, well I want to talk really quickly -- we`re looking at some pages from the diary. Out of all the things in the diary that eventually came out, what was the most explosive, the thing that shocked you most about Anna Nicole?
RICCIO: In the old diaries?
ANDERSON: Yes.
RICCIO: Well, she mentioned that she hates men, which seems kind of weird, because she had a lot of men in her life. She had a pregnancy scare, didn`t know who the father was. She actually mentions partying quite a bit with her mom in those diaries. And then there`s the real shocking thing about her ex-husband, Howard Marshall. She has like an undying love for him, praying for him that he`ll get better. I wasn`t aware that she, at least in her diaries, loved him that much. That was pretty shocking.
ANDERSON: Well, the new diaries that are set to be coming out, you know, you said they have explosive information about her sex life. They`ve been called triple-x, why?
RICCIO: Well, These diaries, I just want to say right now, the diaries are sponsored by www.Clips4Sale.com and actually I have some breaking news. A couple of pages are on the website right now. You can go to www.Clips4Sale.com and view some of these new diaries. It`s some amazing stuff. Every day they`re going to have new stuff from these diaries. We`re not representing these diaries.
ANDERSON: Were they legally obtained, Thomas?
RICCIO: You know, that`s a question I can`t answer right now, if they were legally obtained, the other ones. I don`t know. There were some questions as to how they were gotten. We wouldn`t represent those diaries. But, you know, everybody has scans of them and they`re out there right now. But we won`t represent the new diaries, because there is some question as to how those were obtained, not the ones that are for sale tomorrow, the other ones. There is some question.
ANDERSON: OK, we`re trying to keep all the diaries straight here. Thomas Riccio, we do have to end it there. Thanks so much for taking time with us.
RICCIO: Thank you.
ANDERSON: Thomas will be back with us on Monday to reveal the downright dirty details from the explicit and explosive new Anna Nicole diaries. More of Anna`s secrets revealed Monday here on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT.
HAMMER: Big Beatles news today. Julian Lennon, John Lennon`s 44- year-old son, has sold a significant stake in the Beatles songs written by his late father, talking about songs like "All You Need Is Love, "Sargent Pepper`s Lonely Hearts Club Band," and "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds." Here`s what all this means: Julian probably gets a big check. In return, the company sets up the deal with, which is called Primary Wave Music Publishing, gets a cut when it licenses the songs for say TV shows, commercials, that sort of thing.
ANDERSON: A.J., so many people outraged about this Don Imus controversy. So many questions.
HAMMER: Oh, yes. And a lot of mixed opinion on all of it, Brooke.
ANDERSON: That`s right, and coming up, we have a special event, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT does, Imus` most outspoken critics and supporters here. We`re asking the tough controversial questions, an explosive no-holds barred debate at 30 past the hour.
HAMMER: And listen to this, the Imus controversy has actually led some to call for Rosie O`Donnell`s firing. The shocking connection between Imus, Rosie, and former Congressman Tom Delay coming up.
ANDERSON: And, A.J., there`s more. Halle berry, the unbelievable tie she has to the Imus outrage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, TV`s most provocative entertainment news show. I`m Brooke Anderson in Hollywood. Well, the outrage over Don Imus` remarks has turned into a surprising nasty battle between Rosie O`Donnell and the former leader of the U.S. House of Representatives, Tom Delay.
Here`s the connection, on his blog, Delay, a right-wing conservative, is furious, saying, quote, if the left takes Imus, we`ll take Rosie." He claims the firing of Imus is a ploy by left wingers to, quote, unite to destroy, and wants conservatives to rise up and get Rosie kicked off "The View."
Reading from Delay`s website now, "Where are the repercussions for Rosie O`Donnell`s hateful, idiotic accusations that President Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks? And her ignorant parody of the Chinese language? Or her comparison of conservative Christians to Islamo fascist terrorists? Why has ABC not suspender her from "The View?"
Rosie fired back on her blog, "Tom Delay, sad slug. Hey Tom Delay, you are a criminal. Go away." Rosie referring to Delay`s indictment on conspiracy and money laundering charges, which forced him to resign from Congress. By the way, one really interesting thing I have to tell you, though, Rosie has actually been sort of defending Imus on "The View." She hates what he said but thinks his firing is a bad idea, because it hurts our freedom of speech.
HAMMER: Which is exactly something we`ll be getting into shortly with much more on the Imus outrage coming up on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, with a SHOWBIZ TONIGHT special event. Imus` most outspoken critics and supporters right here. We`re asking the tough, controversial questions. Was his firing more than he deserved? Is his canning censorship? And will this help or hurt race relations. Its` an explosive, no holds barred debate coming up.
ANDERSON: Also, A.J., Halle Berry actually connected to this whole Imus controversy. We`re going to tell you how straight ahead.
(NEWS BREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DON IMUS: Those are some rough girls from Rutgers. Man, they got tattoos and.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some hardcore hos.
DON IMUS: That`s some - that`s some nappy-headed hos there, I`m going to tell you that now.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON IMUS: I`m sorry I did that. I`m embarrassed that I did that. I did a bad thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THE REV. AL SHARPTON, RADIO TALK SHOW: Yes, many of us in private and maybe public have said things that we wish we hadn`t. But none of us has the right to use the public airwaves as (INAUDIBLE) to express our bigotry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Tonight, the outrage over Imus. It`s a SHOWBIZ TONIGHT special event.
It is 30 minutes past the hour. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York.
ANDERSON: I`m Brooke Anderson in Hollywood. And right now, TV`s most provocative entertainment news show is bringing you an extraordinary half hour: the anger, the fury and the remarkable debate that has been trigged by Don Imus` racially charged insults of the Rutgers University women`s basketball team.
Who could have ever imagined that what Don Imus said would lead to what has happened? Imus, a legendary radio personality, fired from his radio and TV show, his few words triggering ferocious debates about so many issues in America.
There is, of course, the issue of whether he should have been fired in the first place. There`s the issue of race in America and the stereotypes his ugly words seemed to reinforce. Issues of censorship - sure, Imus` words were deplorable, but should we be free to say what we want? And is there a double standard here; why is it OK for rap, hip hop and other artists to use hateful and degrading words in entertainment without being punished?
HAMMER: Tonight, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT is bringing together activists, authors, analysts and media personalities from coast to coast to take on all of these hot issues, including the Reverend Jesse Jackson in Chicago, who was one of the leaders of the protests that led to Imus` firing.
Jesse Jackson, I want to start with you. Thanks for being with us.
THE REV. JESSE JACKSON, PUSHED FOR IMUS` FIRING: Very well.
HAMMER: So there are certainly a lot of elements to this explosive story. What an unbelievable week it has been.
I want to - I want to do our best to take these one at a time. Reverend Jackson, you got what you asked for here, and you had a lot of support in getting Imus fired from his jobs. Yet there are a lot of people out there, and I`ve spoken to quite a few - I`d say it`s almost 50-50 with the people I`ve spoken with, who - who feel that Imus apologized over and over, and he should have been given another chance to at least prove that he meant what he said.
What do you say to those people, Reverend?
JACKSON: You know, apology and forgiveness is a process. If I were to hit you right now and knock you down unprovoked, and the camera caught me, and while you lay bleeding and I say, `Forgive me, forgive me,` you would say, `First, let me clean myself off. Let me see if you are sincere. After all, you violated me.` So forgiveness takes some time.
But this is not just an incident, a slip of the lip. It starts out with hardcore whore, and then the - the nappy-headed whore, and then comparing with male basketball players. But three weeks ago, when Hillary Clinton spoke before a group of blacks in - in Selma, Alabama, calling her a bitch, saying maybe she`d be wearing corn rollers next. What about when they referenced in this way Serena and Venus Williams, said that - and they are - "Playboy," they should be in - "National Geographic."
So the real question is, why did CBS and NBC allow their standards to drop so low that they`d allow average - were able to be a conduit for racial and misogynist, gender degradation.
HAMMER: I - I want to bring in Curtis Sliwa. Curtis is the host of "Curtis and Kuby." It`s the radio show on WABC in New York in the morning. Curtis has competed against Imus every single day.
What do you think, Curtis? Should your rival have been fired?
CURTIS SLIWA, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Oh, absolutely not. Because that has been Imus regularly. And remember, everyone who wanted to be president, who became president, has appeared with Imus. They`ve never had problems. Barack Obama was selling books on the Imus show, he never had a problem with it.
But boy, hip hop and rap programs on the radio - they`re all up and down the aisle. And the Reverend Jackson and the Reverend Sharpton have appeared on hip hop stations, and they`ve never boycotted those stations, even though they`ve used these vile, derogatory phrases 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and continue to do so in defiance of what some black and other communities are saying is hostile, misogynist, sexual and racist language that is directed mostly at women.
HAMMER: A couple of really big issues that have come up in the course of this discussion have been hypocrisy and the possibility of double standards. And I - I want to address all of those in a moment.
First, I want to bring in Lola Ogunnaike from "The New York Times." She`s here in New York.
Lola, what - what do you think? Was the firing taking it too far, or did they just absolutely need to do it?
LOLA OGUNNAIKE, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I think a lot of people feel like they absolutely needed to do it. Had this been a isolated incident or something that had just happened for the first time, I don`t think he would have been fired. But he has a pattern of behavior, as the Reverend Jesse Jackson pointed out. He`s been doing this for years. This dates back to over two decades.
And I think people finally said, `Enough is enough.` I think people overall are frustrated with this type of behavior, this type of pandering to the lowest common denominator. They don`t want to hear this stuff anymore, and they believe that it should be off the airwaves, and we should practice human decency and start respecting people instead of disrespecting them to make money.
HAMMER: And as a result of deciding what people can and cannot say, of course, the First Amendment comes into play, and a lot of people are saying that what CBS did, what NBC did by silencing Imus was a case of censorship. We might not - we might now like what he said, but he had the right to say it.
Matthew Felling is from the Center for Media and Public Affairs in Washington.
Matthew, I am of the belief that there`s a big difference between censorship and accountability for what you say. What do you think?
MATTHEW FELLING, CENTER FOR MEDIA AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Well, I think that everybody - everybody is allowed the freedom of speech, without a doubt. But not everybody is - is allowed their own radio show, their own television show. The irresponsible behavior of Imus this past week - or, I`m sorry, last week, is just irresponsible as Rosie O`Donnell accusing the Bush administration of being connected with 9/11.
I think that you are allowed to say whatever you want. But once ABC, once CBS starts giving you their airwaves, then I think that we`re beyond the First Amendment here. And I think that what we are talking about with Imus, and should he have been fired, or should he not - I mean, basically, when we`re looking at this, he had - had advertisers pull out - I mean, this week I think five yanked the cord immediately. And then every - day by day, there was a drip, drip, drip of the guests who said, `You know what? I`m not longer going to be a part of this show. You know what? I - I`ve - I`ve had my come-to-Jesus moment. Now I realize that I probably shouldn`t have been consorting with this locker room behavior.`
And if you think about it, if you don`t have advertisers and you don`t have guests, and you just kind of have this dirty old man reciting these really clich'd jokes that were funny maybe 20 years ago, you don`t have a radio show.
So it wasn`t black or white. It was green.
HAMMER: Trisha Thomas in Los Angeles, you wrote the best-selling book "Nappily Ever After." There`s that word, nappy again. Kind of depends on the context you use it in to - to determine whether or not it`s a bad thing to say, I guess.
Is what happened to Imus a case of censorship, which a lot of people are crying?
TRISHA R. THOMAS, AUTHOR, "NAPPILY EVER AFTER": I think it goes beyond censorship. This is moral obligation to take a stand.
I mean, this is something that you can`t avoid and say, `Well, he did what he did, and he apologized.` I think he changed lives. He changed a lot of lives. And hopefully, it`s for the better. Hopefully, we`re going to have a lot of dialogue, a lot of debate, a lot of changes are going to be made in - in our moral compass. I think things are going to - going to change.
HAMMER: Reverend Jackson, while what Imus said certainly offensive - nobody would disagree that - certainly equally offensive things have been said before on the radio. Rush Limbaugh earlier this year referring to Barack Obama and Halle Berry ad "Half-frican Americans."
Has - has the bar now been raised to the point that there`s going to be self-censorship on the air, which could be an issue? Or is it a good thing?
JACKSON: Well - well, maybe - maybe the media will now have an ombudsman of sorts to determine what their stands are. After all, Imus was on radio 1,040 hours a year, on TV 800 hours a year, with a TV-radio program thinly masked in comedy, but really very political. Its impact was - was devastating.
I`m concerned, beyond the Imus matter, is that on TV, from 5 -0- from 3:00 to 11, there`s not a single black or Latino hosting a show. Or at the comedy hour, 10 to 12, not a single black (INAUDIBLE) show. Lack of diversity in the media is a factor. (INAUDIBLE), these insults are hurled our way and no capacity to fight for some sense of - of - of balance.
HAMMER: Well, we have a lot more ground to cover in this very explosive issue in this very special half hour on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT.
Reverend Jesse Jackson, Lola Ogunnaike from "The New York Times," Matthew Felling, Trisha Thomas, Curtis Sliwa, please all stick around. Much more of the Imus fallout coming up, right after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the Rutgers University Scarlet Knight Basketball Team accept - accept Mr. Imus` apology. And we are in the process of forgiving him. And to think that this all happened on the same day as the death of Dr. Martin Luther King, on the same day, at age 39, 39 years later, and in the 21st century. Don`t we realize that it is time for we as Americans to all hold ourselves to a higher standard?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DEIRDRE IMUS, DON IMUS` WIFE: One thing I want to say is that the hate mail that`s been sent to them must stop. It`s - this is - this is (INAUDIBLE). If you want to send hate mail, send it to my husband.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: That was Don Imus` wife, Deirdre, pleading with people today to stop sending hate mail to the women of the Rutgers` women`s basketball team. Unbelievable that that`s taking place.
Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York.
And that hate, the anger and the disturbing issues all raised by what Imus said is the focus of our special event tonight, bringing together, activists, authors, analysts and media personalities from coast to coast.
Curtis, let me go back to you - Curtis Sliwa, host of "Curtis and Kuby" on WABC Radio in New York.
Obviously, one of the reasons that this has become such a firestorm over the past week is because it touched on the always-sensitive issue of race. We all know this happened last summer. It all blew up with Michael Richards used the n-word in public. It`s happened again.
The question is, could it be a positive thing that all of this has happened, or could it just fuel more hate, as we`ve seen by the fact that now, the women of the Rutgers basketball team, who did nothing but - but - but play a great game, and - and - and aspire to greatness, they`re - they`re getting hate mail?
SLIWA: Well, that`s obviously so horribly wrong, and those words should never have been directed at them or any women out there, regardless of what they do as a career or background.
But let`s level the playing field. Reverend Jackson, Reverend Sharpton, go after CBS, Viacom because they want the head of Don Imus on a platter. They got it. Now, go after the hip hop and the rap stations.
And what about Timbaland, who uses the n-word over and over and just donated $1 million to Hillary Rodham Clinton? And David Geffen, who owns Interscope Records, which is all rap artists - Dr. Dre, Eminem, Timbaland, with all the vile things they say. David Geffen, No. 1 contributor to Barack Obama, who said, `If I had anyone in my staff say any of the things that Don Imus said, they`d be fired.` Well why you taking money from David Geffen, who profits from all the misogynist, racist, homophobic words that rappers use on rap and hip hop stations everyday, and go after their sponsors, and boycott them?
I don`t see that being done. Why is that?
HAMMER: Reverend - Reverend Jackson, why is that? Why - why isn`t that being done, or will it be done now, because the bar, it seems to me, has been raised by all of this? And - and if you`re going to be the watchdog, you got to be the watchdog.
JACKSON: (INAUDIBLE), our office was closed with a bomb scare, and the dogs are sniffing our office now because of a threat to - to blow my building. Our phones are blowing up.
This kind of hate language triggers this kind of a hateful reaction, because it in fact is a form of violence. To be sure, that must - must not be a double standard. We`re not just starting at fighting the issue.
Way back when Mick Jagger did "Some Girls" (sic), saying all black girls want to do is f all night, or "Brown Sugar," way back then, prior to rap, we`ve been fighting the decadence (ph). And so black artists have no more right to degrade women, of whatever description, than anybody else does.
But those companies like Viacom or - and like Time Warner, they must use their power to not be the recorders and distributors of the smut. They, too, have a responsibility.
HAMMER: And - and Curtis raised the very good point of - of the hip hop music. And - and a lot of people have suggested hip hop and rap have desensitized people to offensive language and to the degradation of women.
JACKSON: But A.J,. be - be very clear - be very clear now, rap artists ought to stop it, but they did not start it. The degrading of black women is an ancient tradition. They ought to stop it, but they sure did not start it.
(CROSSTALK)
HAMMER: To - to - to that point, Reverend Jackson.
JACKSON: Those - those corporations - when - when - when the big corporations hire these kids, and they record it, and they do the video, and they distribute it, and the (INAUDIBLE) - with the nice names, I think Curtis is essentially right. And there should be a - a standard that raises the level of - of the entire ethical chin bar for everybody. For everybody.
HAMMER: Well - well to that point - hold on a second, guys. To that point, Russell Simmons, who - who refers to hip hop music and to rap music as artistic expression, a reflection of society - I want to read to you a statement that he issued to us today. He says - quote - "Comparing Don Imus` language with hip hop artists` poetic expression is misguided and inaccurate, and feeds into a mindset that can be a catalyst for unwarranted, rampant censorship."
Trisha, let me get your reaction - Trisha Thomas, a best-selling author with us tonight.
THOMAS: Thanks, A.J.
I - I absolutely think that Russell Simmons is an amazing entrepreneur. I mean, he`s done an amazing job showing the power of the urban dollar. He`s creative; he started - he pretty much started this industry, with his originality. And that`s why I know the creative juice is there. I mean, we can do more for our culture and for hip hop by being more creative than - than the way it`s going right now.
I mean, I actually wrote about a character - he`s a rapper, he turns into a fashion mogul. And I - and I did it on purpose to show that we`re bigger than - than what`s being portrayed. We`re absolutely creative, amazing human beings. And I - I hate that we are at this point where we`re making the link, the direct link, to what Imus said and to the language that`s being put out there right now.
HAMMER: Lola Ogunnaike from "The New York Times," is there an element of hypocrisy here, when you have major corporations like CBS on the one hand supporting their rap and hip hop artists, but on the other hand letting go of Imus for something he said?
OGUNNAIKE: I don`t think there`s an element of hypocrisy here.
I think people for a long time, particularly in the black community, have had a problem with the lyrics in rap, have condemned these videos, that are too racy, that show all these women behaving as - quote - unquote - "hos."
That said, mainstream media has not paid attention to this at all. It`s been glossed over. And all of a sudden, when Imus gets in trouble for saying this, all of a sudden, people want to just point to rap. And I`m not saying that we shouldn`t investigate rap, and we shouldn`t - and hold rappers accountable. But we also have to - to hold society at large accountable.
What about "Girls Gone Wild"? Joe Francis is a multimillionaire, and he carried a video camera around and got pictures of women pulling up their tops during spring break. He`s a multimillionaire, and he has a private jet.
(CROSSTALK)
OGUNNAIKE: What about "The Sopranos?" There`s misogyny everywhere. That`s been touted as one of the greatest dramas on television. Tony Soprano cheats on his wife. He beats women. He`s a murderer.
So let`s talk about society at large, and - and investigate what`s going on in pop culture at large. It`s not just rappers. Yes, they are to be held accountable. But everyone should be held accountable. And if we`re going to have this conversation, let`s have a nuanced conversation.
(CROSSTALK)
HAMMER: I - I would agree with you. I need to go to Matthew Felling from the Center for Media Relations (sic).
Matthew, I - I need your take on the double standard. Because the - the - the term "double standard," the term "hypocrisy" has been thrown around quite a bit this week. And I think it`s getting lost in the gray matter.
FELLING: Yes, you know and I - and I`m - what I am most afraid of this argument this week, this discussion falling into the normal camps of this side saying hypocrisy, this side - what I want to do is go for the `now what` moment. I want to take it to the next level. I am sick of people - I want to see if we can get past that, where I can say this because I am black, because I am Hispanic, because I am black. I want to get past that.
I would like to - to know if we can just standardize. I mean, what - what my predecessor was saying about nuance - I don`t think we`re good at nuance in today`s 21st century media. I would like to know, in the world of Chappelle, in the world of Borat, where is that line anymore? And I think that it would help us to either allow everybody to use these terms, or allow nobody to. Because they - they will always get lost in translation.
(CROSSTALK)
HAMMER: Matthew, I got to end it there because I am out of time. And I - I wish we had more, because there`s still so much ground to cover. Big thank to the Reverend Jesse Jackson, Matthew Felling, Lola Ogunnaike, Curtis Sliwa, Trisha Thomas, I really appreciate you all chiming in tonight.
(CROSSTALK)
HAMMER: And make - make sure you look for Trisha`s book, called "Nappily Married," hitting stores in August.
ANDERSON: Halle Berry also weighing in on the Imus issue. She`s set to star in the upcoming movie version of the book "Nappily Ever After." But now with all this controversy over what Imus said, is she worried about the title?
Halle in her own words, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: It was our appeal to really have the second shoe of justice drop. This is not about gloating. It is really unfortunate that we have to revisit these issues as late as 2007.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: It`s an interesting coincidence: as the uproar over Don Imus` comments and his firing reaches a fever pitch, Halle Berry has a new movie in the works called "Nappily Ever After," based on the popular book of the same title. It`s the story that follows the woman whose hair is started to fall out, so she decides to shave it off.
On "The View" today, Halle talked with the co-hosts about the project, as well as her personal feelings about the word.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROSIE O`DONNELL, "THE VIEW": Are you also doing "Nappily Ever After"? Is that true?
HALLE BERRY, ACTRESS: Yes, that`s probably going to be sometime this summer.
BARBARA WALTERS, "THE VIEW": Because I want to ask you - because that`s the movie in which you shave your hair.
BERRY: Shaved my head, yes.
WALTERS: So it`s all about hair, and.
BERRY: Sort of all about hair. And about women, how we define ourselves through our hair. And if our hair`s not right, we don`t leave the house someday.
(CROSSTALK)
BERRY: And so this character shaves her head.
WALTERS: But this week, with everything going on with Don Imus, and the title of - of this movie, which you said is a book.
BERRY: Yes.
WALTERS: "Nappily Ever After."
BERRY: Still not going to change the title.
WALTERS: Does anybody want - yes, nobody`s going to have any problem with that?
BERRY: They shouldn`t. It`s not, you know, used in a derogatory term at all. And when you see the book - and there`s nothing wrong, in my opinion, with the word nappy. It`s the way in which to use it.
(CROSSTALK)
BERRY: It`s the way in which he used it that offended people.
O`DONNELL: Yes.
BERRY: And - and the title of this book is what the author, you know, titled it. And it`s no - it`s not in a derogatory (INAUDIBLE) at all.
WALTERS: So if somebody said - oh, I`m trying to think of something - `So there - there that`s boy, there`s that chick with the nappy hair,` it wouldn`t be bad?
BERRY: Well, that depends (INAUDIBLE) the way in which you used it.
(CROSSTALK)
WALTERS: .not derogatory?
BERRY: Yes, I think that would be derogatory.
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: You know, the Stevie Wonder lyric, "Looking back on when I was that nappy-headed boy."
BERRY: Right. It depends the way - every word. It depends on the way in which you mean it, what your intent is. And that can make it a negative, I think, or a positive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: "Nappily Ever After" is scheduled to start shooting as soon as this summer.
And by the way, Halle plans to shave her hair for real on film.
You can also see Halle co-starring with Bruce Willis in the new movie "Perfect Strangers" - "Stranger" rather. It is in theaters today.
HAMMER: See, I even think without any hair, Halle Berry will still look amazing.
Let us now find out what is coming up on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT.
Tomorrow and Sunday, should we be worried about Howard K. Stern? May seem like kind of a strange question, but after losing everything that was important to him in his world - Anna Nicole and Dannielynn - Howard is not looking so good these days. So should we be concerned? Why some say Howard should be on suicide watch. That`s coming up on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT this weekend.
Coming up on Monday on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, why are some celebrities so secretive about their relationships? Like Beyonce and Jay-Z, Marc Anthony and JLo? Why are they hush-hush when other stars aren`t shy at all about showing off their significant others? We will get into that Monday on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT.
That is it for SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. Enjoy your weekend. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York.
ANDERSON: Have a great weekend, everyone. I`m Brooke Anderson in Hollywood.
"GLENN BECK" is next, right after the latest headlines from CNN Headline News. Take care.
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