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American Morning
A Killer Speaks
Aired April 19, 2007 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
VELSHI: Make sure to write April 16th storm on the paper return or to hit the disaster button online. That's what we have for you now. The next hour of AMERICAN MORNING starts now.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Disturbed, deadly, a killer speaks. Twenty-eight videos, 43 photos, words filled with rage and hate. Why did he do it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't have to be a profiler or a psychologist to realize that the individual probably is rather delusional.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Is the answer revealed inside the mind of a cold, calculating killer? What set him off? Were the warning signs missed on this AMERICAN MORNING.
Good morning, on this AMERICAN MORNING, Thursday, April 19th, I'm John Roberts again in Blacksburg, Virginia at the campus of Virginia Tech. Good morning Kiran
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning here in New York, I'm Kiran Chetry and boy, no doubt this morning that some of those signs were missed especially after we're seeing these video manifestoes that came out yesterday and just being able to hear his voice. It sounds so strange and to see that hard look in his face and the flashing of all of these weapons. It must be just really another shot in the heart for the people at Virginia Tech.
ROBERTS: It's really stunning Kiran, particularly given the fact that this came out two days after the killings. You'll remember in the Columbine killings and the Columbine killers whom Cho Seung-Hui glorified in his diatribe, it took a couple of years for us to get the back story on that, so you could imagine. People here at Virginia Tech still dealing with the shock to the system of the killings, now dealing with this second blow from finding out what this fella was all about. For all of the digital media that Cho used in his diatribe, he used the post office of all things, snail mail, to send it off overnight. CNN's Deborah Feyerick is at the post office that Cho used on Main Street in Blacksburg. Deb, you took the walk between the dorm, the post office and back again. Is this something that he could have easily done in the time period that he had?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely John, we walked it yesterday. This is the post office where he sent that package, just to give you some idea. It's about a 15-minute walk from his dorm. Now we just learned that he did have a bicycle. Obviously if that's the case then he got here a lot quicker. He would likely have had to have passed a number of dorms as well as the big stadium. That's the shortest route to this post office. And then when he got here, the envelope is postmarked at about 9:01. So that means that he got here and then must have gone straight to Norris Hall, because the timing just works out. There's that 15-minute walk then to Norris Hall, so maybe he stopped, maybe he paused but everything sort of syncs up. Those two hours now filled in a little more completely. John?
ROBERTS: Deb, have investigators been able to talk to the clerk who handled Cho's package yet?
FEYERICK: They have, they interviewed him yesterday as a matter of fact and according to reports on NBC, he spoke to them, he remembered Cho because Cho just couldn't get the zip code right, sending this package to that network. So he crossed it out twice, and you can see that actually on the envelope itself, that he even got the address partially wrong instead of saying plaza, he said street. So he knew some of the details but not all of the details. So clearly they had to work to figure out exactly what post office it was.
ROBERTS: Deb, from talking to this fella, do they know if he just sent the one package or may he have sent others to other news organizations?
FEYERICK: Well we certainly can tell you that after it was learned that he sent this one package, a number of news organizations were scrambling just to make sure that he hadn't sent other packages. But the clerk, we are told by authorities, say that he sent just the one.
ROBERTS: All right, Deborah Feyerick outside of the post office in Blacksburg, thanks very much. And Kiran, that just goes to show you the lengths that this guy was going to in order to carry out this murderous rampage. It really is quite extraordinary.
CHETRY: The methodical nature and the premeditation. For those that did not get a chance to take a look at this we are going to go in depth now with Cho's last words. They were chilling and disturbing. CNN's Gary Tuchman has a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cho Seung-Hui is dead but he has now spoken as if from the grave.
CHO SEUNG-HUI: When the time came I did it. I had to.
TUCHMAN: It's now evident this bloodshed was elaborately planned. A package was sent by the gunman to NBC's headquarters in New York the day of the mayhem. What is being called a multimedia manifesto includes 27 video files. CHO: You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today, but you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.
TUCHMAN: The package is not addressed to anyone particular. But is full of venom and hatred from a man who believes the world has done him wrong.
CHO: Do you know what it feels like to be spit on your face and have trash shoved down your throat. Do you know what it feels like to dig your own grave? Do you know what it feels like to have your throat slashed from ear to ear? Do you know what it feels like to be torched alive? Do you know what it feels like to be humiliated and impaled upon a cross and left to bleed to death for your amusement? You have never felt a single ounce of pain your whole life. Did you want to inject as much misery in our lives as you can, just because you can? You had everything you wanted. Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust fund wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac weren't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.
TUCHMAN: Cho included 43 still photos in the package. The first two show him as a normal-looking college student. The rest are troubling and disturbing.
CHO: You sadistic snobs, happy to be nothing but a piece of dog ----. You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and tortured my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die. Like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people.
TUCHMAN: The package's postmark indeed indicates it was mailed the day of the killings. In fact, the 9:01 a.m. time that is written shows he mailed it between the two murder sprees at the dorm and at the classroom building.
CHO: Jesus loves crucifying me. He loves inducing cancer in my head, terrorizing my heart, and wrecking my soul all this time.
TUCHMAN: And in the package, a chilling note. He praises the quote, "Martyrs like Eric and Dylan," a reference to the Columbine High School killers. It's evident that this man who has single handedly ruined so many lives considers himself a martyr, too.
CHO: I didn't have to do this. I could have left, I could have fled, but no. I will no longer run. It's not for me, it's for my children, for my brothers and sisters that you f---ed. I did it for them.
TUCHMAN: What he did was cause misery. And in this high-tech multimedia age, he goes down as a calculated, cold-blooded killer. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Blacksburg, Virginia.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE) ROBERTS: So we have these videos which were made in what other students here on campus have described as looking exactly like a dorm room. We do know from police and court records that Cho was accused of stalking students, he was treated at a mental health facility. Teachers and students say they were afraid of him. One of his professors threatened to quit if he wasn't taken out of her class. With all of those signs, could something more have been done to stop Cho or get him off campus? Should something more have been done? CNN's Jim Acosta joins us now with a look at the university's response. They're defending their actions but there's a lot of people out there who are saying, you know, I wonder if a big ball was dropped here.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly and one of the big questions is why Cho was allowed to return to class after he was deemed a danger by mental health officials. And a top administrator here at Virginia Tech says it was those same mental health officials who gave Cho the green light.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: There wasn't a Cho file that you could speak of?
SPENCER: Not one central file.
AOCSTA: Virginia Tech's highest ranking official tracking student behavior Edward Spencer rejects the notion that university authorities should have connected the dots and expelled Cho when they had the chance.
EDWARD SPENCER, VIRGINIA TECH ADMINISTRATOR: Honestly, I believe that with what we knew at the time, we did the right thing.
ACOSTA: Two years before the massacre and this chilling confession tape, Cho had repeated run-ins with campus police. Two female students accused Cho of harassment but didn't file charges. A professor warned of Cho's disturbing writings. And one of Cho's roommates reported to police the Korean student was suicidal. After police asked Cho to seek counseling, state mental health authorities declared the student was an imminent danger, but Spencer revealed to us why Cho was later cleared to go back to class.
SPENCER: The mental health agency involved does not release that person unless they feel that person is not or is no longer a danger to himself or others.
ACOSTA: And you think that's what happened here?
SPENCER: Absolutely. You have to trust the judgment of the mental health professionals who have made that decision.
ACOSTA: In the aftermath of the massacre, some law enforcement experts say now is the time to get more aggressive with troubled students.
DON CLARK, FBI SPECIAL AGENT (RET.): I firmly believe that we have to redefine law enforcement in a sense of our laws and constitution so that we can handle modern day crimes such as today. We're no longer living in the early 1900s and we've got to face these types of issues.
SPENCER: It's tempting. But at the same time we live in the United States and we enjoy a lot of freedoms. One of the freedoms I guess we enjoy is to be different, to be weird, to be quiet, and do we want to do away with those rights, probably not.
ACOSTA: Edward Spencer won't say why Tech's judicial affairs board, a counsel he overseas, didn't expel Cho, saying the gunman's school files will remain private for now, even though he's dead.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: Universities across the country are now making changes to their security procedures, including adding warning siren systems, text messaging systems that could alert students when there's a campus shooting. But a big subject of debate John is what to do with these troubled students, should they stay or go.
ROBERTS: Made even more intense by the revelations that we're seeing in these videos as well. Jim, I've seen that the legal piece of paper for when he was committed to that psychiatric institution. And in fairness, the only part that was checked off, and there are three different areas that can be checked off, was that he seemed to be a danger to himself. They did not check off the box where he would have been a danger to other people. But what about these judicial affairs files? How, when might they ever be released?
ACOSTA: We pressed the university on that subject yesterday and they said that those files, according to privacy laws, must remain secret, must remain a private matter.
ROBERTS: Even after he's dead?
ACOSTA: Even after he's dead. We asked when these lawsuits come around if there are lawsuits, and it's expected that there will be, at some point that would be a part of the discovery process and it will be interesting to see what the university does at that point.
ROBERTS: I'm sure as we saw after Columbine with the parents suing to get the materials from Dylan and Klebold out that a lot of people will be trying to get access to those records as well. Jim Acosta thanks very much.
And of course, coming up in just a little while we're going to take a more in-depth look into all of the material that Cho sent off to NBC News and try to get inside the mind of the killer. Kiran it's obviously a very, very scary place to be.
CHETRY: Very true. Thanks, John.
After a two-day delay because of that tragedy at Virginia Tech, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales today faces a senate committee investigating the firing of eight U.S. attorneys, and the jury is still out in the court of public opinion about the question should Gonzales resign? A new CNN Opinion Research poll finds 38 percent of Americans believe he should. But almost as many, 37 percent believe he shouldn't. There's 24 percent who say they are not sure. As to whether or not the president should fire his attorney general, a confidante from his days as Texas governor, 31 percent say yes, 36 percent say no and 33 percent are unsure.
CNN congressional correspondent Andrea Koppel is live on Capitol Hill in the hearing room where the attorney general will be questioned. And of course we know that hearing was delayed because of the events in Blacksburg. How much pressure is the attorney general under today?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He is under a lot Kiran. And it isn't just coming from Democrats. One well placed Republican strategist told me the other day he said Gonzales is going to have to lay the chips on the table. It is sink or swim for him. We saw the vice president put up a firewall between the White House and Gonzales over the weekend. And really he is going to have to come armed with answers today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER, (D) NEW YORK: The burden of proof, because there have been so many misstatements, so many contradictions that it leads one to believe that the real reason that the U.S. attorneys were fired is not being told.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: Basically Kiran, they expect Democrats and Republicans alike, for Gonzales to explain why eight of 93 U.S. attorneys were singled out to be fired. Kiran?
CHETRY: So there's also the question about whether or not Gonzales really can change the minds of many who were calling on him to resign, particularly many Democrats, particularly Chuck Schumer.
KOPPEL: Absolutely. I think for Chuck Schumer, it is really going to be an uphill battle to convince him that there was good reason. But even some Republicans, the top Republican on the committee, Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, said the other day, he said look, yeah, it's true that U.S. attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president, and he can fire them for any reason, but he can't fire them for a bad reason. In other words, Kiran, he can't fire them for political reasons, something they've said they didn't do, but today, Gonzales is going to have to prove that.
CHETRY: Andrea Koppel live for us, thanks so much.
Coming up, what do the final words of the Virginia Tech killer say about his state of mind? We're going to get some analysis straight ahead. Plus, all morning we're paying tribute to the victims. Stay with us on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (WEATHER REPORT)
ROBERTS: The words and images left behind by Cho Seung-Hui offer a horrifying glimpse into the mind of a monster. This morning we're looking at all of this, all the angles as is the FBI, we should note, for clues as to what drove Cho to kill 32 people on Monday morning. Dr. Todd Cox is a professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University and joins us now. Dr. Cox, you've had a chance to see some of these videos, do you hear what Cho had to say. What's your initial assessment of the type of personality that we're looking at here?
DR. TODD COX, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIV.: Yes I have. The thing that's most clear to me, that we have to be careful about is making sure that we understand that we really can't do any diagnosing of an individual that is now deceased. But in reviewing what we have seen that has come out yesterday, it's quite clear that he's -- he was suffering significantly from psychotic beliefs that the grandiosity, the persecutory beliefs that he expressed certainly are consistent with psychosis that we usually will see as part of a mental illness.
ROBERTS: Right. Does this range into the area of a messiah like complex? One of the things that he said is, "Like Moses I split the sea and I lead my people. The weak, the defenseless, the innocent children of all ages." Take a quick listen to this video clip from his manifesto.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: You just loved crucifying me. You loved inducing cancer in my head, terrorizing my heart, and ripping my soul all this time. I didn't have to do this, I could have left. I could have fled. But no, I will no longer run. It's not for me. For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you (bleep). I did it for them.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Dr. Cox, he's portraying himself as a leader here. Who is he leading?
COX: That's a very good question. We don't really understand this in the sense of the degree of grandiosity that he's expressing is profound. And again, in terms of delusional thinking, it's very hard to understand how this is directed and the meaning of it. It's much more important to understand this as being a form of an illness, where the delusional thinking in terms of the content is very difficult to understand and to put meaning to from our perspective. It's hard to get into his head. But certainly the form of this is very psychotic.
ROBERTS: Now, here's a question that everybody is asking today. Can someone have a personality as disturbed as Cho apparently did without other people detecting it? Obviously he had this episode in 2005 but apparently nothing since then. All the time he apparently is growing more and more paranoid, more and more delusional leading up to this murderous rampage.
COX: It is very hard for someone in the lay public to be able to identify this in an individual. The interpretation of behavior, whether someone is thought to be shy or psychotic to the other extreme is very hard for someone to pick up on. Now, with that being said, I think the key to this is making sure that communities, university communities, college communities and the broader community are educated as much as possible about mental illness to determine when the alarm bells should actually go off. Certainly, it is very difficult to get into the mind of someone else. We don't think that individuals in the lay public should be in a position to do that. But certainly educating them and helping them understand when the alarm bells should go off is something that is very much part of what our society needs.
ROBERTS: I'm sure that's something that's going to have a very increased focus in the wake of what happened on Monday. Dr. Cox from Johns Hopkins, thanks very much for talking with us. As you can see, Kiran, incredibly complex issues here that he can be that delusional in his own mind and yet people very close to him might not be able to pick up on it.
CHIRAN: Yeah, it makes you wonder just how. How that could be. His videos and photos are also the hot topic on the web, especially the images that bear a striking similarity to those depicted in a gory Korean movie. So Jackie, what else have you found?
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Kiran, some people online, once they took a closer look at these photos found a similarity between the photographs that Cho took and some images from a 2003 South Korean film called "Old Boy". This was first noted online on a "New York Times" blog. This is one of the images they pointed out. You can see Cho wielding a hammer and an image from the movie below it of a character in the movie doing the same thing. We found a better image of this online so you could take a closer look. There it is from the film and there is the image that was released or sent to NBC News yesterday. And what we did is we dug into this a little further to see if we could find some other similarities. There is another image from the film and one from the images that were sent to NBC News. Let me show you that again. There he is wielding the hammer, there it is with the gun, there it is with another gun.
Now we found this on a website as well, which is very similar to the photograph that Cho took and sent to NBC News holding a gun to his head, then another image of the character looking down, and you see that here, too, of Cho in a car, looking down. Of course this is all speculation online which is what a lot of people are doing today, as they're trying to figure out what was going on in his mind, what was behind this manifesto he sent to a news station. There's also some speculation Kiran as to why he sent this via snail mail as opposed to putting these images online in this day and age of instantaneous access on the Internet. But some thought behind that might be that he wanted time to carry this out, if he had put the images and the videos online, maybe authorities could have stopped him. Kiran?
CHETRY: That's true as well. Jackie Schechner checking out the multimedia part of this for us, thanks so much.
Coming up next, we're going to have more on that diatribe of Cho Seung-Hui. New images and video just released this morning. How can it help in the investigation?
Also what does this atrocity say about the nation's gun control laws? What might it do to the gun control laws and would they have made a difference in this case at all? We're going to have a big debate about that up next. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING, the most news in the morning is on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: A madman's rage frozen in time. This morning the pictures and video Cho Seung-Hui took before and perhaps during his murder spree at Virginia Tech. A chilling glimpse into the mind of a killer. And reaction from the people whose lives he changed forever on this AMERICAN MORNING.
Good morning again, it's Thursday, April 19th. I'm John Roberts, we're again here on the campus of Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia, bringing you all the latest on this story where there are new developments it seems almost every hour. Kiran?
CHETRY: And I'm Kiran Chetry here in New York. John, I mean we're bringing unfortunately some very disturbing news to our viewers who are just waking up this morning. The new images that were released yesterday and overnight and more coming out right now, just paint such a disturbing picture in the own words and just being able to see and hear the strange voice and the words that have come out of this young man's mouth. It's just mind boggling really.
ROBERTS: Yeah and adding new fuel to the debate here, a debate that's been raging for a few days as to how officials at the school and perhaps even people close to him didn't identify this rapid decent into delusion, paranoia and destructive violence. It really is incredible, a real shock to the system, two days after those murders, Kiran, to see this video, this long manifesto of death released. It's really just nothing short of stunning.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR, AMERICAN MORNING: It really is. As you said, it has reignited the debate about gun control and gun laws. And we're going to explore on both sides of the issue whether any gun law would have made a difference in this case.
Right now though, Cho Seung-Hui's message to the world, the Virginia Tech gunman known for never opening up to anyone mailed a packet of his writings, photos and video clips to NBC News. Apparently it looks like he did this in between the shootings on Monday. AMERICAN MORNING's Alina Cho joins us now with the very latest on that videotape and the writings and some new ones released out today.
ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: People have been saying it's like he was speaking from the grave. It is so stunning Kiran. That package containing 27 videos, dozens of photos. An 1800-word diatribe was sent to NBC News headquarters in New York. They opened it on Wednesday and this morning on "The Today Show" the network released more video clips made by the killer Cho Seung-Hui.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NBC NEWS, CHO SEUNG-HUI: This is where it all ends. End of the road. What a life it was. Some life. Do you think I wanted to do this? Do I think I ever dreamed of dying like this in a million years. I didn't want to do this. You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ALINA CHO: It does appear as though he shot the video himself. NBC is reporting this morning that the computer disc containing the files was actually made on the day of the shootings. In the photos as you're seeing there, Cho was smiling in only two of them. The rest show him carrying the guns he presumably used in the attacks. He was carrying a knife at his throat, even ammunition. In the rambling video message, Cho talked about his hatred of the wealthy with their fancy cars, golden necklaces and trust funds. He praised Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (ph), the Columbine killers and he also made religious references. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: Like Moses, I split the sea and lead my people, the weak, the defenseless, the innocent children of all ages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHETRY: This really put NBC News in a very tough, awkward position in trying to help with the investigation and also making the decision to put this information out there. What about their role?
ALINA CHO: That's right, covering the story and also part of it. Matt Lauer said he felt very uncomfortable about that. NBC make it clear this morning that they did not take this decision lightly, that what they have shown is only a small percentage of the total file. Also worth mentioning, the anchor spent some time explaining exactly why they chose to release it. They said they hope it will help all of us better understand exactly why Cho did what he did. Interesting to note as well that they also said they had planned to talk to some of the families of the victims this morning but those families actually canceled their appearances because they were so angry with NBC. And Kiran, as you well know, because you were there, these families, these survivors are still so angry, hurt, saddened and the emotion is very raw.
CHETRY: A lot of them said to me I don't want this guy to have a platform. I don't want him to be able to spew his hate any further and I don't want Virginia Tech to be remembered or defined by the actions of one very bad individual.
ALINA CHO: That's right and they're hoping that they all will be able to move on from this and learn from this. A lot of people are asking why would he do something like this? The experts on our air have been saying it's a way for him to exert the power that he never had in real life. That he is getting even now. One survivor who spoke to our Jeanne Meserve last night said he was so weak that he was not even able to push down the door that was being held up by a very petite female student. So you can imagine this was his final words, his parting shot, so to speak. And he sent it to NBC News. No mention of why he sent it to NBC, no cover letter. It was not addressed to a certain person. It was --
CHETRY: Even got the address wrong which is why it took a couple more days to get. there.
ALINA CHO: It was sent by overnight mail. They received it Tuesday but they didn't open it until Wednesday and of course immediately alerted authorities.
CHETRY: Thanks so much, sure. John, let's head back out to you.
ROBERTS: Kiran, we have heard Cho Seung-Hui's final words, now we hear from the mother of one of his final victims. CNN's Elizabeth Cohen joins us now. Elizabeth, you have been talking to this woman. Just talking to any one of these parents just has to be a terrible experience for them and for all of us to hear. What did this woman tell you?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She talked about the ordeal that her son went through. He was in the French class that the killer went into. Her son said that he had actually been thinking about skipping French class on Monday. His mother says she wishes that he had.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COHEN (voice-over): It's one of the first images America saw of the Virginia Tech tragedy. A young man and woman severely wounded, rescue workers carrying them out of Norris Hall. The man is Colin Goddard, 21-year-old international studies student. He told his parents he was the last person Cho Seung-Hui shot before he killed himself. Wednesday Colin's mother waited anxiously for her son to come out of surgery, a rod inserted into his leg. As she waited, Goddard described what her son said happened inside the French class. Within seconds, Cho entered the room spraying it with fire. He wounded Colin in the leg. Colin says Cho then left the room for about three minutes, and returned as Colin lay on the floor.
ANNE GODDARD, COLIN GODDARD'S MOTHER: The shooter was standing right next to him. He was scared to death. He was absolutely scared to death. He kept his wits about him, but he was scared to death.
COHEN: Standing next to him, Cho shot Colin two more times in the shoulder and the buttock. Then -- he shot at your son. The next thing he did was --
GODDARD: He killed himself.
COHEN: The next thing Colin heard, the police who yelled out that the shooter was dead.
GODDARD: Then they said shooter down, black tag. COHEN: Black tag meaning?
GODDARD: Dead.
COHEN: During our interview, Goddard got good news. The surgery was a success. He joined his family a few hours later.
GODDARD: I don't want this to be the defining moment in my son's life. I want the defining moment to be something positive, some great celebration of his life.
COHEN: Ironically Colin grew up in some pretty dangerous places. His parents are relief workers and he grew up in Somalia and the Middle East but never had a problem. His parents recently moved back to the United States. They said they were shocked at how easily it is to legally buy a gun here.
ROBERTS: That debate being reignited again, it always is every time we have one of these school shootings. Somehow, I think though Elizabeth, that this is not going to be the incident that defines his life.
COHEN: No, I hope not. His parents certainly hope not. They say he's a very strong kid. He's going to go to Madagascar this summer to do some relief work. They hope that that is one of the more defining events of his life.
ROBERTS: Amazing words from a mother who just has to be so happy that he's survived this.
COHEN: And relieved, absolutely.
ROBERTS: Well, thanks very much Elizabeth.
He bought his guns legally, then used them to kill 32 people and himself. Cho Seung-Hui now reignites the debate over gun control. That story coming up next.
Also heart breaking words from those closest to Cho's victims. You are watching AMERICAN MORNING. The most news in the morning is on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the most news in the morning. We're just about two hours away from political fireworks for sure on Capitol Hill today. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales goes before the Senate Judiciary Committee at 9:30 Eastern this morning. He will be grilled about his role in the firings of those eight U.S. attorneys.
Both sides in the abortion debate now expect several states to try to roll back abortion rights laws. This in light of the Supreme Court's approval upholding a ban on late-term abortions, or at least one particular procedure in a razor thin 5-4 ruling. President Bush applauding that decision. Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein saying it is the first major step back to the days when all abortion was a crime.
New pictures of unbelievable damage from this week's nor'easter. Here is a look at southern Maine. The winds and floodwaters knocked some homes right off their foundations, uprooted trees, buckled roads and thousands of people are still without power. We're going to get an update from Chad Myers in a few minutes, because more rain is still in the forecast for those areas.
The Virginia Tech atrocity has put the issue of gun control back in the political cross hairs. Republican presidential candidate John McCain took some heat after defending the second amendment at a campaign event yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN McCAIN (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: All Americans prayers are with them as they go through this terrible trauma. I do not believe that we should tamper with the second amendment of the United States, the constitution of the United States of America. I think -- I think we should stay --
QUESTION: Do you think George Washington stood for automatic weapons?
McCAIN: I think that George Washington -- I think that George Washington stood for the right of people to bear arms, which is -- which is their constitutional right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHETRY: So some heckling there. He was speaking at a Veterans of Foreign War post. Joining me now New York Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy and Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America. Both of them join me from our Washington bureau. Good to see both of you this morning. Thanks
REP. CAROLYN McCARTHY (D) NEW YORK: Thank you.
CHETRY: Congresswoman McCarthy, do you think that tougher gun laws could have prevented the tragedy in Virginia Tech?
McCARTHY: Actually with the news that we have found out in the past 24 hours that he had been adjudicated mentally ill, technically he was not legally bound to be able to buy a gun. Unfortunately that information never got into the NIC (ph) system. So he was able to buy a gun. That's what my legislation would have done, taken the information that Virginia had, that he been adjudicated and it would have gotten into the national system and he wouldn't have been able to buy a gun.
CHETRY: OK, so there is a Federal system for doing background checks. What do you want to change about that system?
McCARTHY: What I want to do, a lot of the states don't have the computer systems or the technology to get all the information that they have to get it to the national system. A computer is only as good as the information in it. So I'm hoping that we're going to see -- it already had passed the House a couple years ago. So now we are looking on the Senate side and the House side to get this passed.
CHETRY: Larry, what is your view on whether or not tougher gun control would have made a difference in the Virginia Tech tragedy.
LARRY PRATT, EXEC. DIR, GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA: Whatever laws have been on the books, criminals don't obey. We can start with the gun ban that was right there at Virginia Tech. The criminal didn't obey that one either. Criminals get their guns in spite of gun laws. I think we should look down the road at Grundy, Virginia at the Appalachian School of Law where something went better in a tragedy because there were two students hearing the shots that started a very similar scenario began, went to their vehicles, got their guns, came back on the campus, drew down on the killer and stopped him and were able to subdue him that way. Now, they were technically in violation of the law. Happily, they weren't prosecuted. I don't think they could have been convicted, which raises the question, if we have gun laws on the books that you can't get a conviction on, maybe we ought to take them off the books so that we empower the good guys to want to be able to defend themselves.
CHETRY: Larry, that is a point that people are making this morning. But you are saying that criminals manage to get guns. However Cho went through the system. He did everything legally and that is how he obtained that 9 millimeter. He slipped through the cracks of our background checks.
PRATT: Had the system blocked him, he would have gone and gotten his gun the way criminals do any way. There are lots of places where criminals can't get guns legally. They get them. The whole country of England has banned guns, yet criminals have twice as many guns the police estimate as they confiscated from the legal gun owners 10 years ago. That's on an island. So I don't think we should be trying to kid ourselves that passing a law here, passing a law there, is going to stop criminals from doing what criminals do.
CHETRY: Let me ask --
PRATT: We have to make it so that the rest of us are able to defend ourselves like those young men did down in Grundy at the Appalachian School of Law.
CHETRY: Congresswoman McCarthy, there is a school of thought that criminals are going to be able to find guns that way, even in some cases at these gun shows where it's unregulated and they can just go and get guns. So what if we end up in a situation where we've legislated it to the point where only the bad guys are getting handguns?
McCARTHY: Listen, I happen to agree to a certain point. If someone is that bent on getting a gun, most likely they will be able to get a gun because it's so easy to buy a gun. What I'm saying is that when we look at certainly the tragedy on Monday, then you look at over 30,000 deaths a year, whether they're suicide, accidental or homicide, we as a nation are a violent nation. Larry talked about England and some of the other nations. They have nowhere near -- what we kill in a day they kill over in those nations in a year. That is not the point. It always comes back to where we are trying to take away the right of someone to own a gun. We're not trying to do that. We can enforce the laws that are on the books. We certainly can have better background checks. That could possibly save lives.
PRATT: Well, then let's get rid of the school ban --
McCARTHY: That's where the debate needs to be.
CHETRY: Do you think that the -- that they should lift the ban on weapons in schools?
PRATT: That's --
CHETRY: College campuses.
PRATT: That is certainly what needs to be done at the Federal and at the state level so that you don't have to have people acting illegally to defend themselves and then hoping that they don't get prosecuted.
CHETRY: Campus police were armed yes or no? Campus police were armed Larry and it didn't make a difference in this case.
PRATT: Because they weren't at the scene of the crime but victims are at the scene of the crime and if they are able to be armed, it's just possible that one of these dirt bags will pick on a victim that can shoot back.
McCARTHY: Larry, we are seeing constantly, constantly violence in schools is increasing. Even in the high school and the grade school. So what you are asking, basically, is -- especially on a university where you have frat parties, you have drinking, so instead of somebody getting into a fist fight, you are talking about more deaths coming down the road.
PRATT: With all due respect Representative, that argument is used every time a concealed carry law is --
McCARTHY: Your argument is used and that is not saving lives.
PRATT: And it doesn't turn out that way at all. The population of people who have concealed carry permits usually 21 and above, are the lowest in the crime rates of any of the population of our country. We should be encouraging these people to be on the campus because they are the most responsible. And to accuse them of being frat party drunks I think is a canard --
McCARTHY: Larry, if you had your way every single person in this nation would be armed and shoot to kill. Someone has a bad day, domestic violence -
(CROSSTALK)
CHETRY: Heated arguments on both sides and a lot of good points on both sides. Unfortunately, we are out of time. But I want to thank both of you. Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy and Larry Pratt, thank you for coming today.
We are going to go back to Virginia Tech right after we take a quick break. The friends of one of the students killed in the tragedy give us their reaction to the new video from the killer.
We're also going to talk with one of the people who lived with Cho on campus. Did he see signs of trouble? Stay with us on AMERICAN MORNING.
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CHETRY: We have some news just in to us here at CNN. U.S. Defense chief Robert Gates arrived in Baghdad. It's a day after the series of car bombings took place, 200 people were killed. It's the worst violence seen in the city since the February crackdown in Baghdad. This is Gates' third visit to Iraq now and his first since President Bush's decision to send the extra 30,000 troops to try to use that surge to quell the violence there. But again we are getting word that the defense chief has just arrived in Iraq. We'll bring you more news as it happens. Meantime, let's go back out to Blacksburg, Virginia and John. Hey John.
ROBERTS: Kiran, Jeremy Herbster (ph) was a 27-year-old civil engineering grad student at Virginia Tech hoping to one day to work on environmental issues. Those hopes ended along with the hopes of 31 others on Monday at the hands of gunman Cho Seung-Hui. Joining me are two of Jeremy's very good friends, Ken Stanton and Gaurav Bansal. They know him quite well. Good morning to both of you. It's got to be still incredibly hard, even though here we are three days out from the actual murders themselves. What is going through your mind these days Gaurav?
GAURAV BANSAL, FRIEND OF SHOOTING VICTIM: Really, I'm just trying to remember these people now. I think I'm over the part where the shock is gone and now it's really just about remembering these people and especially Jeremy, seeing his parents come out. It's really emboldened me to also come out and talk about it.
ROBERTS: That was really an extraordinary interview that they did with Wolf Blitzer yesterday. I can't imagine as a parent of a senior at the University of Colorado, who has a very good friend that is a senior here at Virginia Tech, I just can't imagine being a parent like the Herbsters and what they are going through. Tell me a little bit about Jeremy, Ken. He's been described by so many people as a guy that you like right away.
KEN STANTON, FRIEND OF SHOOTING VICTIM: He is. When he moved into my building, the beginning of this year, I invited him and everyone new in the building to come down and just hang out and get to know each other. And the minute he walked in the door, he just lit the room. He just starts talking. He's energetic and passionate and he can't sit down and just wants to talk and talk. He's a great guy to be around, a lot of fun.
ROBERTS: Gaurav, he was voted most talkative student on campus or in a particular group was it?
BANSAL: Yeah. I don't know if that's official or unofficial. But, yes --
STANTON: Like we have been voted the best hamburger.
BANSAL: Yeah. Yeah. But, he was definitely a talkative guy and really outgoing and really nice to everybody, genuinely, I never heard him say anything bad about anybody and he always had uplifting things to say.
ROBERTS: In addition to being a grad student Ken, he was also a lab instructor?
STANTON: Yeah.
ROBERTS: I've read some posts, comments from some people who he taught and they say that they actually looked forward to going to class if Jeremy was going to be there.
STANTON: Yeah. I knew he was a TA and he's asked me a couple times for some advice on handling labs. You know, it's really evident that he is a very passionate guy.
ROBERTS: Humble beginnings, grew up on a farm in Pennsylvania.
STANTON: Yeah, yeah. He puts all of his energy into everything he does. Passionate is the best word to describe him. He overwhelms you with it at times.
ROBERTS: You've heard of these videos that are out that this guy Cho made before the murders. Have you had a chance to see them? Do you want to see them? What are your thoughts about that?
STANTON: It's a really sensitive topic, I would really rather not get into it.
ROBERTS: All right. Gaurav.
BANSAL: I would not rather get into it.
STANTON: We would like to talk about Jeremy.
ROBERTS: How do you want people to remember him?
BANSAL: I really want people just to know, he was really an outgoing, nice, genuine guy he was. There is no lying about that.
STANTON: You know, I think there's a message, knowing Jeremy and being able to be here and talk about him, that message is that, you know, be passionate and be passionate about something. Jeremy, if you talked to any of his professors or anybody who he worked with in his department, you'll know that he was 100 percent energy. If you said something needed to be done it was done and he was on it. You know, those are the kind of people that really make a big difference in the world. We may have lost him, but I tell you what, you know, his spirit is certainly with us.
ROBERTS: Such a shame. Every one of these names is just such a shame. Ken Stanton, Gauran Bansal, thanks, really appreciate you being here. Kiran, let's send it back over to you.
CHETRY: All right John. Thanks so much. Coming up next, sound and fury. The multimedia rantings of the Virginia Tech madman. New tape just released within the hour. We're going to show you more of it coming up at the top of the hour.
Plus, the ongoing debate over campus security. What more can be done to protect students? You're watching AMERICAN MORNING. The most news in the morning is on CNN.
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