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Nancy Grace
Mary Winkler Guilty of Voluntary Manslaughter in Shooting of Preacher Husband; Possible Copycat Mass Killer Threat in Yuba City, California
Aired April 19, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, leaving 33 dead in the early morning, Virginia Tech campus. Bombshell tonight, all the warning signs were there, this guy a ticking time bomb, school authorities warned repeatedly that the 23-year-old Virginia Tech shooter, Seung Cho, could erupt into violence, yet they did nothing.
And now from Virginia to California to Colorado, the shockwaves, police on the lookout in California, schools there in lockdown, a 28-year- old threatens a killing spree to, quote, "make the VTech massacre look mild," 28-year-old Jeff Carney at large tonight, believed to be armed with an AK-47, explosives and poison.
And in Colorado, a 21-year-old university student verbally sympathizes with the VTech killer, Seung Cho, and he gets arrested. When does freedom of speech cross the line and become a threat?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was just like a shadow. You wouldn`t even hear him move in and out. They only way they would know (INAUDIBLE) coming in and out of the door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 2005, the alleged shooter, Cho Seung-Hui, was declared by a special judge to be mentally ill and presenting an imminent danger to himself and others.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think Cho was mean. I heard about the shooting, and I heard that he was an Asian-looking fellow, and I knew who he was. The minute that they said an Asian -- OK, I knew.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really felt strongly that he was suicidal, that he was so depressed that he had a negativity about him. It was really like talking to a hole sometimes, as though the person wasn`t really there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had been stalking girls and looking at their Facebooks and learning everything about them. And sometimes at night when I would go to sleep, I`d be a little nervous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the incidents with the girls I think are the big warning signs, like, none of them ever came to, like, charges or anything because I`m sure those girls weren`t trying to cause trouble, but if any of them had, it may have stopped things then. But those are definite warning signs of someone that had some social problems.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m concerned about the copycat factor. What we know is in the wake of every one of these nationally covered stories, there are other events that occur within the next few weeks. They occur in clusters.
By repeatedly playing these videos and showing these photos over and over again, we`re energizing some other killer out there who`s somebody who`s on the edge, who`s on the verge, and sees this as the way to go. Just as this guy identified with the Columbine shooters, somebody`s going to identify with this guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
Lockdown in California. Is there a VTech copycat on the loose?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey Thomas Carney made the specific threats with regard to him being in possession of an AK-47. He claimed to have some type of explosive device and that he was going to make the incident in the Virginia Tech situation look mild in comparison to what he was going to do.
He was going to commit suicide, hopefully, suicide by cop (INAUDIBLE) statement he had made, that he intended to take out as many people as he could.
The suspect did not make a specific threat with regard to a target location or a school. Our main emphasis at this point -- and I cannot stress that enough -- is to find this suspect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Before we take you to possible copycats of the VTech killer, the Virginia Tech killer, first tonight, breaking news. Finally, a verdict in the murder one trial of a minister`s wife accused of gunning down her highly popular preacher husband inside their Tennessee parsonage.
Joining us, CNN correspondent Susan Candiotti. What`s the latest, Susan?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, a stunning verdict here. After the jury of 10 women and 2 men deliberated for just eight hours, they came back with a verdict. And this jury did not buy what the prosecutors were trying to sell, and that was that Mary Winkler was a cold-blooded killer. Instead, this jury convicted her of voluntary manslaughter -- voluntary manslaughter, which as you know, Mary (SIC), is defined in the state of Tennessee as, in effect, a crime of passion, when someone is provoked into carrying out an irrational act.
And Mary Winkler, in essence, now stands for a possible sentence of anywhere from three to six years. And not only that, she continues to be free on bond now, a $750,000 bond, until her sentencing on May 18. What did it for this jury? Apparently, Mary (SIC), it was her own words, her taking the stand.
GRACE: Let`s take a listen to the verdict.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We, the jury, find the defendant, Mary C. Winkler, guilty of voluntary manslaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, in the back row, is that your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the other end, yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yours, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And yours, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A Tennessee jury split the baby just a few moments ago, handing down a guilty verdict against preacher`s wife Mary Winkler. As you all know, she said she had been verbally abused. He called her fat, he called her ugly, he called her stupid, so the preacher got the death penalty!
Out to Russell Ingle with "The Independent Appeal." Russell, thank you for being with us. What exactly was the evidence of abuse at trial?
RUSSELL INGLE, "INDEPENDENT APPEAL": As far as any hard-core evidence other than Mary`s testimony, I don`t think there was anything. I think the shoes, I think the wig really played on the jurors` minds. From everything that I`ve heard in the community, that completely swayed everything.
GRACE: The shoes and the wig. Explain.
INGLE: Well, people saw this. In the last 24 hours, I probably just within the community, going into cafes and local stores, had several people just completely come out of their shell, whereas they had been very quiet, say that they had saw Mary`s testimony and they believed her. They talked a great deal about the shoes. They talked a great deal about the wig and even some comments she made about looking at pornography, and their comments have in general been...
GRACE: OK...
INGLE: ... I believe it.
GRACE: Hold on. I`m trying to explain to the viewers what you mean, Russell Ingle, by shoes and wig. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY WINKLER, SHOT PREACHER HUSBAND TO DEATH: Matthew wanted me to wear it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean, he wanted you to wear it, Mary?
WINKLER: Just like that, to dress up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dress up?
WINKLER: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dress up for what purpose, Mary?
WINKLER: Sex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sex? Besides the wig and the shoes, how else would you dress?
WINKLER: Just skirts or something slutty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, OK, Victoria`s Secret, you might as well close your doors and shut down for business! So let me get this straight, Susan Candiotti. She tells the jury her husband wanted her to dress up in shoes and a wig for sex, so she shot him. Dead.
CANDIOTTI: Well, in effect, this clearly made an impact, Nancy, on the jury. Not only that, but she testified that he kicked her in the face, that he punched her, that he abused her emotionally and verbally. And even though no one else in the community saw it, this jury must have felt some sympathy.
The defense attorneys believe it, that it was Mary, as they put it, being Mary, and something struck a chord with this jury. They were convinced they would get a verdict back this day on the strength of her testimony, and in essence, they had to trash Matthew Winkler`s reputation in order to get her something other than, in effect, a life sentence.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Kathleen Mullin and John Burris, Kathleen out of New York, John out of San Francisco. John, now listen, I`ve thrown out many a case when I truly believed the battered woman defense syndrome. But come on. Dress up in the shoes and the wig? She also told the jury that she stepped on a pillow -- this was earlier. She told the way she stepped on a pillow and she tripped, and the pump-action shotgun actually accidentally went off. She tripped on a pillow.
You know, John, I`m actually afraid to tell you about that because I`m afraid you and Kathleen will probably use it in your next domestic homicide. What do you make of it?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I like the verdict.
GRACE: You like it.
BURRIS: I think it was important. Actually, it might have been -- should have been a not guilty verdict. But at the end of the day, this is a psychological abuse case. It wasn`t just one day, two days, three days. It was of long standing. And what this man essentially did was take away this woman`s self-esteem. He took away the very thing, the essence of what a human being is about, and he took that away on a repeated basis.
GRACE: Wait. Hold on. Hold on.
BURRIS: If you don`t want to wear a wig...
GRACE: Rosie? Rosie? Please, let me see John Burris. He took away her self-esteem, so she shot him in the back...
BURRIS: Well, but it was...
GRACE: ... yanked the phone cord out of the wall...
BURRIS: ... over a long...
GRACE: ... and let him die!
BURRIS: But over a long period of time. And it wasn`t like...
(CROSSTALK)
BURRIS: You know, you can disassociate when you have a situation that has happened over a long period of time.
GRACE: Disassociate? Hold on. Let me ask you what your MD meaning, your interpretation of disassociate is, John.
BURRIS: Well, my view is that what happens here is that you can black out. You are faced with certain things...
GRACE: Black out!
BURRIS: ... that are so overwhelming psychologically, you can actually black out. And even though you can go through a series of steps, you`re not really understanding...
GRACE: Black out!
BURRIS: ... or dealing with those psychologically. I`ve seen this happen before. I certainly would have presented that as a defense...
GRACE: OK...
BURRIS: ... if I were doing this case.
GRACE: OK, to you, Kathleen, Mullin. Black out. Black out. Let`s see. She shot him in the back with a pump-action .22-caliber shotgun.
KATHLEEN MULLIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it wasn`t that she -- I don`t agree with John that she blacked out. I agree that there was a...
GRACE: It`s ridiculous!
MULLIN: I agree that there was a long history of abuse, physical emotional. You can...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Really? What evidence do you have -- what evidence do you have for that, other than what she said for the first time in court?
MULLIN: Why is her testimony not persuasive?
BURRIS: What`s wrong with that?
MULLIN: I thought her testimony was very persuasive. But Nancy, listen, the reason she won this case is because from her own mouth, she told the story in a convincing fashion. She also convinced the jury that when she pointed the gun at her husband, it was never her intention to shoot him. She was trying to halt him and get him to talk to her...
GRACE: Wait! Wait! Wait!
MULLIN: ... about his feelings.
GRACE: Wait! Wait! Let me see Kathleen. OK. He was asleep, lying in bed with his back toward her. Stop him from what, Kathleen? What are you saying she was stopping him from, snoring?
MULLIN: No. John makes the point, Nancy, and it`s a very good point, that when you see Mary Winkler testify, she is a devastated shell of a woman. She is sitting with her head down. She`s got a -- she`s clearly a conservative woman. She`s got her head down. She`s crimson red as she`s confronted with a pair of shoes that she finds to be completely degrading. He`s taken from her everything that defines her as a person, as a woman, and as a wife.
GRACE: OK...
MULLIN: And that is why she ends up confronting him, and she does it with the gun, Nancy...
GRACE: OK. I got it.
MULLIN: ... because she`s trying to get some respect for herself.
GRACE: While he`s lying in bed...
BURRIS: And she didn`t walk away.
GRACE: ... snoring.
BURRIS: She was found guilty of manslaughter.
MULLIN: Right.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on! You guys didn`t let me finish.
MULLIN: I`m sorry.
GRACE: After shooting him in the back, then she goes over and yanks the phone cord out of the wall while he`s still lying there alive, lies to her kids and takes them on a beach vacation.
To you, Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author of "Till Death Do Us Part." You`re the specialist on this. There was no blackout. There was no self-defense. There was no trying to get him to talk. The man was lying there, sleeping. If he degraded her by making her wear a wig and shoes during sex, she could have gotten a divorce.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, maybe she didn`t feel she could get a divorce. After all, this man was a preacher. He was well-received in the community. She could have felt very, very powerless. And he could have convinced her that she was, in fact, powerless.
And I think by her taking the stand, too, and reporting what she did about their sex life, she presented her husband as somewhat perverted. And so he comes off as this perverted guy who`s trying to convert his naive wife into something she`s not, just for the heck of it, just because he can.
And so when somebody shoots in a moment of panic, you can then just want to escape. And she probably was not thinking things through at that point. But listen, a lot of wives want their husbands dead. There you have it.
GRACE: Well, a lot of wives want their husbands dead, but they don`t get a pump-action shotgun down out of the closet and shoot him in the back while he`s lying there sleeping!
Pat Brown, criminal profiler, I don`t think there was any panic. How can you panic when your spouse is asleep?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: I don`t see how any of this could have turned into the verdict that it did. What scares me about the whole thing is that, like you said, this is the story she gave in court, not before. Now, look at all the time she had from the time she was arrested, the time she had in that back room with that defense lawyer, cooking up whatever possible story they wanted to cook up together for the defense. And now we`re supposed to believe this without a shred of evidence. It could have happened, it might have happened. I don`t understand how that`s evidence in a court of law.
GRACE: I want to go back to Russell Ingle with "The Independent Appeal." You know, all the whole shoes and wig thing makes no sense to me. But one thing you said that does make lot of sense, Russell, is that the jury liked her. They liked her on the stand. They felt some kind of connection with her on the stand. But Russell Ingle, I myself saw her photograph in magazines while she was out on bond, I think it was around New Year`s Eve, at a bar, having a drink -- don`t know if it was alcohol -- having a really good time. This woman is not some kind of introvert, like she looks like in court.
INGLE: Well, you know, I saw those photographs, as well, and I can tell you that McNairy County had taken a wait-and-see approach up until the pictures of what occurred in McMinnville came out. At that point in time, people began to express, Well, maybe she`s not the innocent person that we`re hearing about. But when she got on the stand the other day, right or wrong, I`m telling you, she make a connection with those folks, and it turned the opinion.
GRACE: OK. I want to go very quickly back to Susan Candiotti. I think she definitely turned the case around on a dime. Before we go to Yuba City and the lockdown, Susan Candiotti, again, what is the possible time sentence on voluntary in that jurisdiction?
CANDIOTTI: The possibility is anywhere from three to six years. It is up to the judge to issue a sentence. And that sentencing is scheduled for May 18.
GRACE: OK, we are now taking -- thank you, Susan. And thank you to you, Russell Ingle with "The Independent Appeal."
Very quickly, let`s switch gears. Is there a copycat to the Virginia Tech killer. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We go back in history to the Tylenol murders, when people were copycatting having pills and so forth. We look at the most recent thing with the Wendy`s finger in the chili, where that`s been a copycat thing. And obviously, if you have the potential, it is certainly possible that these images and these words can have you act.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Very quickly, let`s go out to Sheriff Jim Denney, the Sutter County sheriff`s department. He`s looking for a man who threatened to make the Virginia Tech killings look mild. Is it true this guy could be armed with an AK-47, explosives and poison, Sheriff?
SHERIFF JIM DENNEY, SUTTER COUNTY, CALIFORNIA: That`s what he claims he has and claims that he is going to do.
GRACE: Tell me about the alleged threat.
DENNEY: The threat he called into a local pastor and to his parents, claiming that he had the AK-47, an explosive device, some type of chemical or acid, and a knife. He claimed that he was going to commit suicide, possibly, if possible, suicide by cop, meaning he was going to shoot it out with the law enforcement. And he made the statement that -- with regard to the Virginia Tech incident, that he would do something bigger than that.
GRACE: Sheriff, I`m very disturbed about the possibility this guy has an AK-47, poison and explosives. Also, what can you tell us about a possible vehicle?
DENNEY: The vehicle that we originally put out this morning has since been located and recovered. We now have a new vehicle that we learned that he may now be in. And that is described as an aqua blue Ford Ranger pickup with a matching-colored tool box. And that`s the only description we have at this time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Pohle of Flemington, New Jersey, remembered by his high school as the ultimate student athlete. The biology major was due to graduate Virginia Tech in a few weeks. Brian Bluhm was weeks away from finishing his master`s at Virginia Tech. A lifelong Detroit Tigers fan, the Tigers and Kansas City Royals held a moment of silence for him at the Tuesday night game. Nineteen-year-old Mary Read, new to campus this year, family still can`t comprehend how she died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A car accident might be what you think is -- or what you worry about. You don`t worry about a gunman and a mass killing at a college campus in the United States. It`s just kind of unfathomable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So quickly, after the massacre at Virginia Tech campus, we now learn that there`s a potential copycat out there, lockdown in California schools today, this man threatening to make the Virginia Tech massacre look mild. Police are on the lookout for him, Jeffrey Thomas Carney. What do we know about him? He`s 28 years old, 6-foot-1, 190 pounds, brown eyes, short brown hair, says to make the Virginia Tech shooting look mild.
Let`s go to Virginia Tech. Standing by, Brian Todd, CNN correspondent. What are the updates there at Virginia Tech, Brian? Can you believe there are actually copycats out there?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I can, Nancy, as the experts tell you that this kind of thing occurs in clusters, and it happens after incidents like this. In fact, this incident, from the writings of Cho Seung-Hui, the shooter here -- there are indications that he himself might have been a copycat. In his writings, he referenced "the martyrs Eric and Dylan," referring to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of the Columbine killings. So in his mind, he may have wanted to outdo them, and unfortunately, he did. So that`s being talked about here, as well, in addition to the investigation that`s going on.
GRACE: And Brian Todd, I also noticed in the videos and photos of himself that he took, he looked like he had the stance of one of the suicide bombers.
TODD: He did. I mean, the photos are grotesque on a number of levels. And it shows him with the guns that he purchased. In fact, we learned today that he purchased one of those guns, the Walther P22, from an on-line brokerage in Wisconsin and then picked it up at a pawnshop here in Blacksburg a couple of days later. That`s one of the new items in the investigation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maxine Turner was in the fateful German class. The 22-year-old senior chemical engineering student had already accepted a job at a chemical engineering firm. Jarrett Lane was the valedictorian of his high school in Narrows, Virginia. The civil engineering student was graduating in May and had already been accepted at the University of Florida for graduate work. Freshman Henry Lee from Roanoke, Virginia, one of 10 children of parents who emigrated from Asia when he was a young child. So many young lives that now will not be lived.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Not only do the families of the victims learn today that there are more of those videotapes that Cho made of himself being released, but now we learn tonight of a possible copycat killer out in California.
Out to Drew Sansor (ph). What can you tell us?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re looking for this man in an area about 50 miles north of Sacramento. Jeffrey Thomas Carney has threatened to make Virginia Tech look mild. He reportedly told his pastor and family members that he`s armed with an AK-47, explosives, and also poison.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, I saw (INAUDIBLE) at the same time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Garrett Evans helped himself a little, too. After being wounded in the leg, he says he played dead, suffering through the slaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walked through the door real fast, didn`t say anything. All he did was bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Shot a girl here, shot a girl there, shot the instructor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you think you ended up spared?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The good lord only knows. I mean, he has a purpose for me. I guess maybe one reason is to tell you and the world what happened. I always knew how blessed I was, but now I`m blessed to where a level that I thought I would never be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In addition to learning that even more of his self-made home movies are being released, movies from the killer, tonight, victims` families are also learning that there is an alleged copycat out there threatening to make the Virginia Tech killings look, quote, "mild."
I want to go to one of the family members of one of the victims. Pat Strollo is with us tonight. Her sister, Hillary, was shot. She is recovering.
Hi, do I have Pat Strollo?
PAT STROLLO, VIRGINIA TECH SENIOR: Yes, you do.
GRACE: Hi, dear. Thank you for being with us. Tell me about your sister.
STROLLO: You know, right now, she`s still in the ICU. We`re expecting that she`ll be released within the next couple days. She`s doing very well. The Virginia Tech marching band played for her today outside the ICU, and she`s in great spirits.
GRACE: Tell me what she said to say about the shooting. What happened?
STROLLO: You know, I`m sure it was all just a daze for her. At first, they thought it was construction. Then, the next thing she knows, there`s a gunman in her classroom, pointing a gun at her. You know, she`s very confused, but she also realizes that she`s very fortunate, and she`s glad to be alive and with our family.
GRACE: Pat, as are we. As are we.
STROLLO: Thank you.
GRACE: When do you think she`ll get out of ICU?
STROLLO: Most likely tomorrow. She`s going to have one checkup with the surgeon, and he`ll be checking over everything and probably let her go.
GRACE: Did she know this guy at all, Seung Cho?
STROLLO: Not at all. She had no idea who he was prior to the shooting.
GRACE: Out to you, Brian Todd. I think that`s the case of most of the victims. This was totally random.
TODD: That`s right, Nancy. Investigators say, so far they have made no connection with him to any of the victims. They`re trying to establish possibly some links. They`ve come up with none yet. They`ve established no link between him and his first two victims, Emily Hilscher, at West Ambler Johnston Hall. They`ve established nothing to link him to her. There have been a lot of questions about that, but nothing yet.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Kim in Texas, hi, Kim.
CALLER: Hi. With all of the information that has come to light about the Virginia Tech shooter, has Virginia Tech now left the themselves open for 32 or possibly 33 wrongful death lawsuits?
GRACE: I think you`re right. Let`s go out to the lawyers, Kathleen Mullin, John Burris. What about it, John?
BURRIS: Well, I think there are some real legitimate issues here, that when you look at the question of liability, it`s a question of notice. How much notice did you have? And did you act in a reasonable way to follow that through?
And one has to look at all of the evidence here, but there were a lot of warning signs here and a lot of notice that the university had. Somewhere along the way, they really dropped the ball here. And I can imagine families and lawyers looking at this, saying, look, the university ought to be responsible for the loss of these lives. Not only did they not act properly in the first instance, but then you have the whole question, secondly after the first shooting, did they act properly there? And was that a reasonable way to handle this process? So I think that these issues will be looked at very closely from a question of liability on the university`s part.
GRACE: To you, Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigator reporter, look, the university had been warned at least six times. Explain.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, I mean, there are a lot of issues that have come up here, Nancy. One of the main points is that they seem to be offering differing accounts of what happened after that first incident in the dormitory.
They say, on one hand, they thought that the suspect had left the area and even left the state. Then, the university officials also said that they thought maybe it was an isolated domestic dispute, some sort a murder- suicide. So you can`t have it both ways.
At that point, after that first shooting, they did not have weapons. They did not have a suspect. A killer was on the loose, and critics are saying what they should have done at that time was literally go around to the entire university, shut it down, say, "Nobody come in. Everybody leave." Do a lock-down of the entire university.
GRACE: Pat Brown, let`s talk about the warning signs, at least six that I know of. First of all, Pat Brown, there had been two and possibly three women that he allegedly stalked.
BROWN: Exactly. One of their concerns is that, when you have behaviors, and these are behaviors that are toward other people, they`re not something you`re keeping personal to yourself. This is something that is displayed in public. These are publicly bad behaviors.
These were breaking rules that should have been in that university of things you aren`t allowed to do on campus if you want to remain a student. They`re pretty scary. And when you have teachers and students who are frightened as they were, essentially what they said was, it`s OK for those teachers and students to be frightened and the students not get an education, as some didn`t want to be in the classroom, or for the teacher to work in a frightening environment, unsafe environment, but it`s OK for this guy to keep going to school.
That is backwards. They`re supporting the criminal, in a sense, and not any of the victims. And I think they should be liable for what they did.
GRACE: To you, Kathleen. I was talking about the six warning signals. And, Pat, you`re absolutely right. Not only were there three women allegedly stalked, but then he was deemed to be a threat to himself and actually put under medical supervision.
MULLIN: Nancy, I`ve got to say that I don`t agree that the university is going to be wholly and totally liable for what happened here. I know there were warning signs, and I know that there was bizarre behavior documented by professors, but I have to tell you that the conduct of the shooter was so far off the chart, nobody could have predicted it.
There was nothing about his previous behavior, any of the six warning signs that you mentioned, any of the bad behavior just mentioned by the profiler, none of it predicted what happened at the end of the day. And so I don`t know that the university is going to be able to be held liable for the fact that Cho Seung-Hui went off on a huge shooting spree that nobody ever knew would have happened.
Yes, he was weird. Yes, he had dark writings. Yes, he acted inappropriately toward some of the female students that he dated on campus. All of these things could have been pursued in other forums, and they were not. But did they foreshadow this shooting spree? I don`t think so.
GRACE: There`s a big difference between acting inappropriately and stalking. There`s another big difference in someone taking an antidepressant --hold on -- and being deemed by a judge to be a danger.
And speaking of that, back to you, Brian Todd, isn`t it true that, in that jurisdiction, once a judge deems that you are mentally posing a danger to others, you`re not supposed to, under federal law, get a handgun, get a weapon?
TODD: That`s right, but there is a stipulation in the law here that says that, if you`re declared mentally ill, it is not the same thing as being mentally incapacitated. And the law in Virginia states that, in order to buy a handgun, to be prohibited from buying a handgun, you have to be mentally incapacitated. There`s another level there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s one of the first images America saw of the Virginia Tech tragedy: a young man and woman severely wounded, rescue workers carrying them out on Norris Hall.
The man is Colin Goddard, a 21-year-old international studies student. He told his parents he was the last person Cho Seung-Hui shot before he killed himself.
His teacher, Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, heard gunfire in the hallway and yelled for students to call 911. Colin did, but within seconds, Cho entered the room, spraying it with fire. He wounded Colin in the leg. Colin says Cho then left the room for about three minutes, and returned as Colin lay on the floor. Standing next to him, Cho shot Colin two more times in the shoulder and the buttock.
The surgery was a success. He joined his family a few hours later.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t want this to be the defining moment in my son`s life. I want the defining moment to be something positive, some great celebration of his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In addition to the pain the Virginia families are feeling, now they learn there is a copycat, a possible copycat, to the V-Tech killings. And not only that, another student in Colorado says he sympathized with the V-Tech killer and gets arrested.
Now, hold on just a moment. Out to Michael Roberts with the "Westword Newspaper." Gets arrested? What happened?
MICHAEL ROBERTS, "WESTWORD": The student is named Max Karson. And he was in a class, and the subject of the Virginia Tech shootings came up. And he said that he could understand why someone could kill 32 people, and went on to say that the fluorescent lighting and the colors of the walls in the classroom might make him angry enough to kill.
GRACE: OK, hold on, the fluorescent lights and the colors of the wall would make him angry enough to kill. Now, the "Yeti," is that his newspaper that he publishes?
ROBERTS: He puts out a newsletter. And as you can guess by his reasons for saying that he would be mad enough to kill, he was trying to be satirical. And he`s gotten in trouble with various things with the "Yeti" and a paper that he put out when he was a high school student in Amherst, Massachusetts. But as a matter of fact, those instances he got off with no problem. In this instance, he had some very bad timing.
GRACE: Now, hold on, Michael Roberts with the "Westword Newspaper," you said that his statements were satirical, but hasn`t he gotten in trouble for making comments about women and minorities under the guise of satire?
ROBERTS: He absolutely has. He`s a young man who likes to push buttons, to try to see how far he can go and get a reaction out of people. And in the fall of 2006, he wrote an essay called "The Myth of the Female Orgasm," which he claimed after the fact was something that was intended to satirize and ridicule men who treated women as objects. However, a lot of women who read it felt that it was actually making light of rape. And so he got into a lot of trouble at that time. However, it was judged free speech. And while it was a controversy, he was not punished in any way by the University of Colorado.
GRACE: This 22-year-old young man, Max Karson at University of Colorado, actually arrested and released on bond.
I want to go to Polly Franks. Her daughter attends Virginia Tech. She does not believe that the Cho video should be aired. She also is very concerned about her daughter going back to school. Polly, when you hear about some guy, another student saying he identifies with Seung Cho, what are your thoughts?
POLLY FRANKS, HAS DAUGHTER AT VIRGINIA TECH: Let`s take him 100 percent seriously and give him zero tolerance. We cannot afford another tragedy like this.
GRACE: Tell me what happened the day of the shooting regarding your daughter.
FRANKS: She was on the campus at 9:30 and had no idea that anything was wrong, until she nearly got hit by a team of SWAT cars. And so she went back to her apartment, looks in on her e-mail, and sees at 9:26 the e- mail concerning being cautious, because someone has died at the 7:15 homicide in the dormitory. So she, like 26,000 other people, were just oblivious to the fact that there had been a double-homicide right there on campus, Nancy. And I`d like to know why she and all of them were allowed to just walk free, have no means of protecting themselves.
GRACE: Well, you know, Ms. Franks -- with us, Polly Franks, her daughter a student at Virginia Tech -- last night, you and I were very concerned about the two hours between the first set of shootings and the last set, where this guy actually had time to go mail a package to NBC studios. But also, now, the more we find out, the more the administration knew. They knew about the stalking, they knew a judge had declared him a possible danger to himself and others. They really dropped the ball. But this guy out in Colorado, incredible.
FRANKS: Terrifying. And they`ve got to -- I mean, I liken it to like at an airport. They don`t take jokes; they take these things seriously. We`ve got to just stop coddling people. I`d like to ask, why was a psychopath allowed on my daughter`s campus to remain there and endangering so many people?
GRACE: I agree. Well, the guy out in Colorado is going to argue First Amendment.
FRANKS: Please.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Connie in Oklahoma. Connie, what`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Yes, Nancy. I wondered if the media has a responsibility how to portray these kind of killers to prevent copycats?
GRACE: Well, what would you advise? Do you advise that it`s not covered? I mean, are you saying the media makes the monster?
CALLER: My husband and I have been talking about it a lot. We feel like they should be portrayed a little more pathetic, sad.
GRACE: You mean the killer should be portrayed pathetic and sad?
CALLER: Yes, as kind of pathetic...
GRACE: Oh, I see, so as not to induce copycats. What about it, Robi Ludwig?
LUDWIG: You know, it`s a very interesting point. One of the problems is, copycatting happens because it works. We give attention to these people, and attention equals importance. And that`s the danger here. I think we need to restructure how we think about violence in the media in general.
GRACE: And I understand Connie in Oklahoma`s point now. But, you know, it`s simple Trial 101 when it comes to the Colorado arrest. The First Amendment will protect him. But remember: The First Amendment is not unfettered.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, our thoughts and prayers to those suffering in the wake of the Virginia Tech tragedy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was all the time having fun, all the time playing with people. No one could be around him and not have a good time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A car accident might be what you think is what you worry about. You don`t worry about a gunman and a mass killing on a college campus in the United States. It`s kind of unfathomable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not real yet, if that makes sense. I know it`s real, but it`s a sense of numbness.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... going to miss Washington share the things he loved to do, watching him share those with other people -- it`s going to be hard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You turn to see somebody, and it`s not him, and he`s nowhere in the house, and then you realize he`s not here, and his body is not here, but he`s here in spirit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The rest of our life is going to be to celebrate his life, to say what he did good, you know, and to say, "That Jeremy was a good boy, a good man, and we`re going to love him forever."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what we`re going to do. We`re going to love him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Tonight, we stop our coverage to remember Army Specialist James Lindsey, 20, Florence, Alabama, killed, Iraq. Enlisting straight from high school, he dreamed of a military career. Loved the outdoors, hunting, fishing, riding ATVs with his grandfather, Wayne. He had a kind heart and a big smile that lit up a room. Leaves behind grieving family, parents Mike and Janice, and a grieving widow, new bride Michelle. James Lindsey, American hero.
Thank you to our guests. Our biggest thank you is to you. Tonight, our prayers, along with those of the country, still with Virginia. Until tomorrow night, good night, friend.
END
