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More Iraq Violence; Saudi Terror Plot

Aired April 28, 2007 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HUGH RIMINTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This was a peaceful scene in a sacred town, Fredricka; this is Karbala, the site of two of the holiest shrines particularly for Shia Islam. It was just a half an hour before evening praise, evening coming on and suicide car bomber as you say immediately blew up, leaving the ground strewn with bodies of the dead and the dying. This coming just two weeks after another car bombing killed 44 people and wounded 80, another 55 killed with scores more injured today.
In fact so many casualties that they were unable to cope with them in the local hospital, the governor of the province saying he had to ferry many of the injured to neighboring provinces so that they could get some care. In all, the grief and the shock rage as well, Fredricka, some people stoning the police in their anger saying the police are simply not protecting them from this sort of violence. That typically, these are Sunni aligned terrorists groups that are causing these bombs, causing massive loss of life. In return, Shia militias tend to set out death squads, gather up Sunnis and kill them and leave their bodies scattered around particularly the major towns of Iraq. The sectarian divides growing ever deeper. Fredricka?

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And so Hugh, the stoning of the police cars, is that any indication of the kind of blame that some of the residents want to place on the political situation as well given that Karbala before this month has not been a place to see the kind of violence that Baghdad has been seeing?

RIMINTON: Absolutely, the stoning of the police is just indicative of the deepest exasperation that this just seems to be going nowhere despite political and security efforts that are taking place. Oddly it comes just hours after Muqtada al Sadr, the powerful Shia cleric and militia leader or inspiration for a militia had a letter that he had written read out into the Iraqi parliament, taunting George W. Bush in which he said, in part to President Bush, you say it will be chaos if America leaves. How could it be greater chaos than we are seeing here today? Hours later, this bomb and that message resonating I'm sure across many parts of Iraq tonight. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks so much, Hugh Riminton from Baghdad. Meanwhile, here in the U.S., the debate rages on over the original decision to invade Iraq. Chairman Henry Waxman has invited former CIA director George Tenet to appear before the House Oversight Committee. In a new book about the Iraq war, Tenet is harshly critical of Vice President Dick Cheney. Here's CNN's Brian Todd.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The former CIA director describes palpable tension between himself and Vice President Cheney before and after the Iraq invasion. In his new book, "At the Center of the Storm," George Tenet boasts of helping to kill a speech Cheney planned just before the war linking al Qaeda and Iraq. Tenet writes that during the fingerpointing over pre-war intelligence, the president publicly supported him. But at a meeting he had with then Secretary of State Colin Powell, quote, "Colin let me know that other officials, particularly the vice president, had quite another view." The quote excerpted in "The New York Times" and confirmed to CNN by two sources familiar with the book. Assistants for Cheney and Powell say they won't comment before reading the book. Then there is this comment from the vice president on NBC's "Meet the Press" in September.

CHENEY: When George Tenet sat in the oval office and the president of the United States asked him directly, he said George, how good is the case against Saddam and weapons of mass destruction, the director of the CIA said, it's a slam dunk Mr. President, it's a slam dunk.

TODD: Tenet fires back in the book and on CBS' "60 Minutes."

GEORGE TENET, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: The hardest part of all this has just been listening to this for almost three years. Listening to the vice president go on "Meet the Press" on the fifth year of 9/11 and say, well George Tenet said "slam dunk" as if he needed me to say "slam dunk" to go to war with Iraq. As if he needed me to say that.

TODD: Tenet's former deputy, John McLaughlin, now CNN's national security adviser, was at that 2002 meeting where Tenet said "slam dunk." McLaughlin says the phrase has been taken out of context.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: What he meant was that it's a slam dunk that we can put more information into the mix to make it clearer why analysts believe there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

TODD (on camera): White House officials tell CNN the decision to go to war was based on many other reasons apart from the slam dunk comment. Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END OF VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And perhaps you needed a reminder of who George Tenet is, well here's a quick background check. He began his government service in 1982 as an aide to the late Senator John Heinz of Pennsylvania. President Clinton made him the director of the Central Intelligence Agency back in 1997 and President Bush kept Tenet on in that position and Tenet was still CIA director when the U.S. invaded Iraq. Tenet resigned from the CIA in 2004, citing personal reasons. And later that same year, President Bush gave Tenet the Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor.

At the U.S. State Department, a high-level resignation apparently tied to the so-called D.C. madam case. Randall Tobias has resigned as director of U.S. Foreign Assistance and Administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development. That move after Tobias revealed to ABC News that he had been a client of Deborah Jean Palfrey's escort service. Palfrey is fighting her indictment on federal racketeering and money laundering charges. ABC says Tobias claims he used the escort service for massages but that no sex was involved. Reacting to the resignation, a White House spokesman says, quote, we are sad and disappointed by this news, end quote.

Attacks on the scale of 9/11, that's what Saudi officials say they have prevented with the arrests of more than 100 Islamist extremists. Numerous weapons also were seized in what's described as one of the largest terror sweeps to date in the kingdom. Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Wrapped in plastic, buried deep below the Saudi desert, these al Qaeda guns were never meant to be captured. Saudi intelligence officials say al Qaeda planned to use them to bring down the Saudi royal family and kill American soldiers in Iraq. In an unprecedented nine-month operation netting more than 170 al Qaeda suspects and more than $5 million, Saudi intelligence officials say they thwarted plans to fly aircraft into oil facilities, attack security installations, kill senior officials and send money to al Qaeda in Iraq.

GEN. MANSOUR AL-TURKI, SAUDI INTERIOR MINISTRY SPOKESMAN: The activities that we have dealt with trying to recruit young Saudis to be involved in the terrorist activities outside the kingdom.

ROBERTSON: But the raids reveal a far more worrying trend for the Saudis. The war in Iraq is spilling over into Saudi Arabia. Saudi al Qaeda fighters train in Iraq and come back to Saudi to fight.

AL-TURKI: They are taking advantage of the terrorism action outside the Kingdom in order to recruit, in order to train.

PAUL CRUIKSHANK, NEW YORK UNIV. LAW SCHOOL: Some of the new blood that's being recruited into the organization partly because of the Iraq war has really had to go across into Iraq to fight the fight. But now it seems that they're reorganizing in Iraq and starting to launch plans and plots across the border.

ROBERTSON: In the past year, since this botched al Qaeda attack revealed their new tactics to target oil facilities and kill the economy rather than kill westerners, al Qaeda has largely dropped off the radar. Intelligence gleaned in the botched attack led to many of the recent arrests. But in their success, the Saudis show how tough their coming battle is.

(on camera): The money alone shows just how dangerous al Qaeda may be, the $5 million recovered is 10 times what it cost al Qaeda to execute the 9/11 attacks. Nic Robertson, CNN, Atlanta.

(END OF VIDEOTAPE) WHITFIELD: An act of terrorism, those words from Pakistan's president after a deadly suicide bombing at a public gathering today. The blast happened during a speech in northwest Pakistan by the country's interior minister. At least 28 people were killed and 37 wounded including the interior minister and his son. Terrorism expert Masood Shah is with us on the phone from a village near Peshawar. Mr. Shah, does this seem to have the fingerprints of any particular group?

MASOOD SHAH, TERRORISM EXPERT: Well, this obviously is following the same pattern as we have been witnessing before and as I said earlier, this is because of the fact that we are partners in this war against terrorism and it is almost the same hallmarks as the others.

WHITFIELD: And when you say is similar to the previous pattern, are we talking about the attempted assassinations of the president Pervez Musharraf, many assassinations which have failed and that perhaps this group or these individuals are now going after the ministers, since they can't get to the president?

SHAH: Exactly, exactly. It is a chain. It's a chain that it's following and we have the attack on the president and on the prime minister and of course now the interior minister who is responsible for law and order. And as I said earlier, this area is very close to the tribal area, the Momand agency. So, it's a spot they had chosen, but it is part of his constituency and he had gone there to address this public meeting.

WHITFIELD: Has there been a relative false sense of security since it had been relatively quiet as of recent?

SHAH: No, there hasn't because security has always been operated here in the northwest frontier province and this is not the first act of its type. There was another case that took place, in that, of course, we lost some very senior police officers, if you would recollect. So, it's not a case of complacency and of soft policing. It was high-alert policing and that is probably what saved the minister's life.

WHITFIELD: And Mr. Shah, before I let you go, the president has said that he is not going to withdraw from the war on terror and they will continue to try to be as vigilant and diligent along the Afghanistan border. So as long as that will happen, might we continue to expect these kinds of terrorist attacks?

SHAH: Certainly because he's not withdrawn before. There was an attempt on his life, on his prime minister's life, and we are in this war against terrorism by conviction. So, really, it's something that we believe in and the government of Pakistan and the president of Pakistan, we believe in all -- in this.

WHITFIELD: Terrorism expert Masood Shah, thanks so much or joining us near Peshawar, Pakistan.

SHAH: My pleasure.

WHITFIELD: Smoke billowing above the Midwest. In this country, we'll head to Oklahoma for a live report on that refinery fire.

And tornado, flooding and fire. We'll take a close look at the weekend's severe weather all across the map.

And later --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD: I love you, Byron.

PERKINS: Yeah.

HOWARD: Just don't feel like you do anymore.

PERKINS: I do.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: A modern-day Bonnie and Clyde on the run, but this is about a deadbeat dad who is now behind bars again after breaking a promise to his son. The case of the kidney fugitive, 10 minutes from now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Huge flames and thick smoke fill the air around an Oklahoma refinery as a big fire burns for a second day now. The blaze sparked by a lightning strike has engulfed two 80,000 barrel tanks that contain an unrefined form of gasoline. KOCO's Adam Slinger is at the scene. Adam?

ADAM SLINGER, KOCO: Fredricka, this fire has been burning for over 24 hours right now. Now, let me give you the very latest from the environmental protection agency because they are out here testing the air because you can see, there is a lot of thick smoke coming off the refinery right now as it has been for nearly 24 hours. Now, what is burning exactly? We are told by the EPA that one tank contains 2 million gallons of gasoline. That was a tank that got struck by lightning at 11:30 central time yesterday morning. Yesterday, it appeared that that fire was starting to die down. They were putting some foam on it trying to get the fire out, but around 8:30 local time, that tank we're told collapsed. The fire then spread to another tank carrying 1 million gallons of diesel and this is where we stand today now. Both are continuing to burn more than 24 hours later.

The best scenario, according to the EPA, this fire will be out later tonight, maybe tomorrow, if all things continue right now. So far, no injuries, no evacuations and, of course, the EPA is continuing to test all the air around here. Now Wynnewood, Oklahoma is about 60 miles south of Oklahoma City and on our way down here, you can see the smoke from this at least 30 miles away. Fredricka?

WHTIFIELD: That is some big fire indeed, Adam. So I know you mentioned foam, but is this a case of really just letting this fire burn itself out because of the kind of chemical or, you know, that we're talking about? SLINGER: That's where it appears to be right now. Of course, this isn't the first fire this refinery had. Back in May of 2006, just last year, there were about 150 people that had to leave the area, they did have to evacuate part of Wynnewood because of the fire, but so far since there are no injuries, no evacuations, the air so far seems to be ok, there is really no cause for concern according to the EPA.

WHITFIELD: Adam Slinger, thanks so much, of KOCO.

Severe weather is being blamed for some pretty serious problems in several states this weekend. Cleanup is already under way in Gloucester County, Virginia, where a tornado there snapped trees and power lines and damaged more than 20 homes. The National Weather Service says winds in the twister were 75 to 80 miles an hour and so far, no word of any injuries. In New Jersey, thunderstorms unleashed some pretty torrential rains there as floodwaters rose some of the homes in the town of Green Brook had to be evacuated. Rutherford and Newark also getting socked by heavy rain.

And in southeast Georgia, nerves are still on edge as drought- related wildfires keep spreading. The flames have scorched 95 square miles of forest and swampland and dozens of homes have been evacuated, but most of the residents have been given the all-clear to now return. The fires have been burning for almost two weeks now.

(WEATHER REPORT)

WHITFIELD: All right, well what do you say about this, the son urgently needed a kidney and it sure seems that the father needed a heart. An update on the man being called the worst dad in America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm ready for anything. I got this, this dog, actually, it's a pistol and I'm hoping to defend my family and myself.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And you're looking at the harsh reality of daily life in Iraq through the eyes of young Iraqis.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHTIFIELD: A unique honor for a Quaker school in the nation's capital. The highest environmental rating from the United States Green Building Council. CNN's Gary Nurenberg reports on what makes the school so green and the impact it's having on students.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, you guys, let's do the atomic model of sodium right here.

GARY NURENBERG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The exclusive (INAUDIBLE) Friend School in Washington, D.C. has a new addition.

MIKE SAXENIAN, ASSISTANT HEAD OF SCHOOL: It has a dramatically reduced use of energy and of water, extensive use of recycled materials, reclaimed materials, and locally sourced materials.

NURENBERG: The school says the $21 million cost is 15 percent higher than conventional construction.

SALLY SELBY, PRINCIPAL: Just being in this building really just gives you sort of a wake-up call because every aspect of it is contributing to the world.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kids really do understand the building and we've trained 28 of our eighth graders to be tour guides.

NURENBERG: Starting at the top.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the solar panels and five percent of the middle school's energy comes from these panels.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the solar inverters. They take the energy that we get from the roof in the solar panels and convert them from direct current to alternating current.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really like the windows and how when you open them, they have sensors that turn off the air conditioning to save energy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I like the windows because they let in so much sunlight and by letting in so much sunlight, we get to use less electricity on the lights.

NURENBERG: Back on the roof where vegetation will help control rainwater runoff.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We planted some lettuce and some herbs which we'll hopefully use in the cafeteria in the future. That helps us cut down on emissions which are used to drive the food here.

MICHELLE MOORE, U.S. GREEN BUILDING COUNCIL: This is a wonderful demonstration of how incredibly beneficial green schools can be for the learning environment.

NURENBERG: Michelle Moore is with the U.S. Green Building Council which gave its highest rating to the school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We recognize projects that really go above and beyond.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, hopefully, it will show other schools and other buildings to maybe convert to be more environmentally friendly.

NURENBERG: Gary Nurenberg, CNN, Washington.

(END OF VIDEOTAPE) WHITFIELD: Well a far cry from that, day-to-day life in Baghdad. Well it's tough enough without worrying about capturing it all on video, but that's a challenge that some of the city's young residents have taken up. It's an innovative blog project called "Hometown Baghdad" and that is coming up next.

And he's famous for his wall of sound, but now, Phil Spector is being cast in a harsher spotlight, murder suspect. Our legal experts will take on that subject coming up in THE NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Welcome back to the NEWSROOM, I'm Fredricka Whitfield at the CNN Center. Blogging from Baghdad, three Iraqi students air their documentaries on Youtube about life in the war zone. Reporter Paul Davis takes a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAUL DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The group of intelligent young Iraqis with access to digital cameras and the internet have given us an insight into their world. They call it "Hometown Baghdad."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was going to meet my friend in college and to prepare for the exams, but I couldn't get out today and I think the reason is -- why don't you just hear for yourself.

DAVIS: Hours later, Adele was still trapped in his room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's been a breakdown. I listen to the (INAUDIBLE) reports.

DAVIS: This student took his camera to Baghdad's engineering college, one of many places of education to be attacked by extremists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The dean was assassinated and my friend lost a kidney, another one lost a leg. This one is a graduation certificate for a deceased student.

DAVIS: On his website, Adele describes being woken up by his little brother and cousins' nightmares and discovering the boys had witnessed murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you went into this --

(ARABIC)

DAVIS: In their blogs, the young Iraqis show us an existence where electricity is off more often than it's on. Where the simplest journey means risking your life. Anyone who can is fleeing the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to leave all my friends, all my family, to go to a safe place where can I live safely without these dangerous things. DAVIS: For those left behind, the nightly gun battles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sounds of bullets go all night long.

DAVIS: Outside, our blogger ready just in case gunmen come for his family tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm ready for anything. I got this gun, actually, it's a pistol, and I'm hoping to defend my family and myself.

DAVIS: Desperate measures in a desperate city where even these young Internet broadcasters know a camera must sometimes take second place to a gun. Paul Davis, ITV News.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: So where did this project come are from? Well Laurie Meadoff is the executive producer of hometownbaghdad.com and she joins me now from New York. Good to see you.

LAURIE MEADOFF, HOMETOWN BAGHDAD.COM: Good to see you, too.

WHITFIELD: Boy, this is riveting stuff and very in-your-face and it is the harsh reality. How did you get folks to participate in this?

MEADOFF: Well, this has been an amazing project. And I am one of the executive producers along with Kate Hellis (ph) and Michael DiBenedetto (ph), another producer, and we work with Iraqis, and the key to success is our partnership and collaboration with young Iraqis. It has been incredibly extraordinary, the partnership between the Americans and the Iraqis.

WHITFIELD: Tell me about the partnership. For one, how did they get the cameras and how did they get the wherewithal to be this honest on videotape?

MEADOFF: We have been producing, Chat the Planet (ph) so we've been linking young people around the world in two-way dialogues and then we met a group of Iraqis and literally started developing a show with them together. We sent them cameras. They did the casting. And every inch of the way, we partner with them on all the content, whether it's too dangerous and we should take out a shot or whatever it is, "Hometown Baghdad" has become a place where young people around the world had dialoguing about what's going on.

WHITFIELD: So there is some directing and even editing on your part.

MEADOFF: We've been editing in our office. We have young people that are speaking Arabic and helping us translate the tapes and it's a true collaboration between a ton of people, but the real effort is happening on the part of the Iraqis. Chat the Planet is a global youth dialogue company bringing the worlds youth together and this "Hometown Baghdad" has been extraordinary. One young viewer said, you know, I'm a young person that in the last six hours watched all these shows and I never knew before that when I thought of Iraqis, I thought of the insurgent. I didn't think of cooking with mom or hanging out or playing video games or watching soccer. And that's the real essence of this work is really to build bridges between the world's youth.

WHITFIELD: And so, while trying to build those bridges, it also means you have to try and find some balance when editing and directing and producing all this, some balance between the real graphic reality and the other segment which may be very ignorant to this being the everyday life. So, how do you strike the balance?

MEADOFF: Well, it's interesting. One of my favorite parts of the video is when young people that go into an abandoned building and go swimming in a pool. It's called "Last Resort" and you see that they're just everyday, real people, the untold stories, the life of an everyday Iraqi in this war and we don't get a glimpse in their lives. These young people put their cameras in their pockets. They ...

WHITFIELD: And they're risking their lives, too, by shooting this stuff.

MEADOFF: They are, but we're very, very careful. We're so careful that when they have viewed this and they say, OK, this shot is too dangerous and it will tell somebody where I live, we take it out. It has been a partnership of the utmost protection for both of us.

WHITFIELD: So then, what next? A lot of these young people, I know about the story of the one young student who talks about wanting to get to a class to take a test so that he can get college entrance, but, of course, you're hearing the gunfire and all that in the background, what happens to a lot of these students after this project?

MEADOFF: You know, "Hometown Baghdad" has been one of the most successful Websides. We reached more than a million people in three or four weeks and dialogue all over the world is happening and one of the things that I find so incredible is that one young, one person said, here is my friends. Three weeks ago, I didn't even know them. Now I do. Can you help them?

And the world through video blogging, through watching the storytelling, compelling real stories that work, are literally offering their homes and their houses and college scholarships and help. And so it shows the potential for all the world to really partner on people of the world's situation. And here at "Chat the Planet" we're going to India, we're going to Pakistan, we want to do things in Israel and just that you could see real people where they live real lives and get a further understanding is what we're building.

WHITFIELD: Very courageous and very eye-opening. Laurie Meadoff, one of the executive producers of hometownbaghdad.com. Thanks for your time.

MEADOFF: Thank you so much.

WHITFIELD: We're going to turn our attention to Southern California in a moment, he's one of the world's most famous music producers but that's not why he's in the news these days. Our legal experts weigh in on the murder trial of Phil Spector. That's straight ahead in THE NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Phil Spector, the man who created the "Wall of Sound," is now on trial for murder. Our legal experts will discuss the case in a moment, but first, CNN's Sibila Vargas looks at his life and the charges against him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIBILA VARGAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Phil Spector was born in the Bronx during the Great Depression. His mother was a seamstress. His father, an ironworker who committed suicide when young Philip was nine. By the age of 21, Spector already was a millionaire and one of the first music producers whose fame rivaled that of his artists.

ROB MERLIS, FORMER WARNER BROTHERS RECORD EXECUTIVE: It was an iconic sound that he developed, the Wall of Sound, and you know, when you heard it, you knew it was his.

DARLENE LOVE, SINGER: He had maybe 25 musicians in the room and then, he would overdub almost everything. The guitars, the drums, the percussions, the singers.

VARGAS: That rich, multi-layered sound was the base of a string of hits in the '60s and '70s. "Be My Baby" by the Ronettes, "You've Lost that Loving Feeling" by the Righteous Brothers, "Let It Be" by the Beatles.

LOVE: I always thought he was a genius. He's amazing.

VARGAS: Many artists had complicated relationships with complicated relationships with Spector, like Ike Turner and Darlene Love, she successfully sued him for royalties.

LOVE: Love/hate, yes, not hate, but love. I had to learn to try to not to hate Phil Spector.

IKE TURNER, MUSICIAN: If you knew him, he was a nice guy, but if you don't know him, you could take what he say wrong. You could -- you know, his personality, when he was drinking, is short.

VARGAS: There were stories of drinking and manic depression. Then, there was his fascination with guns.

LOVE: One evening, driving up to his house, I heard all this commotion in the house. I heard somebody telling Phil, "Put the Guns Away, Phil. Put them away, stop playing with the gun, man, come on now." And I knocked on the door and Phil opened the door and he had a gun in his hand.

VARGAS: On February 3rd, 2003, Spector was arrested after Lana Clarkson's body was found in his castle-like home in a Los Angeles suburb of Alhambra. The victim of a single gunshot in the mouth. His defense team maintains the B movie actress took her own life.

LOVE: I never for once, one moment, thought that he shot her out of anger or he murdered her or did anything like that. The thought came to my mind, fooling around with guns, somebody got shot.

TURNER: I really believe can't pass an opinion of what I think he did or what I think he didn't do. I just -- He's in my prayers.

VARGAS: It's the highest profile murder trial to be tell advised since O.J. Simpson's.

LOVE: They could have made a decision not to have cameras in the court, but I think it's because it's Phil Spector and everything about Phil has to be large.

VARGAS: Sibila Vargas, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: So, let's listen to the Wall of Sound coming from our legal experts and see if they're in harmony on this case. Not likely. That's OK, we like it that way. Avery Friedman is a civil rights attorney and law professor. Good to see you.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Richard Herman is a New York criminal defense attorney and law professor. Good to see you as well.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Avery, let's begin with you. So let's talk about the case and we're hearing from dense attorneys that police ignored the evidence and that they have approached the case with already the preconceived notion that this was a murder scene. So, is there a solid case of this is prejudicial?

FRIEDMAN: You know, what else are they going to say? There's only one thing anyone really has to know here and that is Mr. DeSouza (ph), the chauffeur, heard the defendant admit, "I think I killed somebody," and then he made a report to 911. They played the tape. And it's completely consistent, Fredricka, with what Phil Spector's been doing back since the early 1990s. He gets drunk, he gets a woman over there, he pistol-whips them and worse, and so, the sad thing about the Clarkson case, the Lana Clarkson case, is that Phil went too far. He did it. You know he did it. The question is, can the prosecution prove it?

WHITFIELD: All right, so, Richard, how do you know he did it? RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Avery is just mistaken. I mean, no one knows he did it because he didn't do it and the science evidence in this case ...

WHITFIELD: You're thinking suicide?

HERMAN: Oh, please, the scientific evidence is so overwhelming in this case. For instance, for instance, on the bullets themselves, the DNA of Lana Clarkson is on the bullets, not Phil Spector. On the blood spatter, it should have been all over Phil Spector. Nothing was on Phil Spector. On the gunshot residue, it should have been all over his clothes and on his skin, none of that was there. I mean, Fred, the scientific evidence ...

WHITFIELD: But doesn't the distance from subject to subject, perhaps make a difference as to, you know, whether there should be blood splatter on.

FRIEDMAN: That's right. That's exactly right.

HERMAN: The defense forensic experts who will come testify in this case have impeccable credentials and they're going to get on the stand and tell this jury based on their professional opinion that the gunshot wound was consistent with a self-inflicted gun shot wound.

WHITFIELD: The other argument is, OK, so you go over there to commit suicide? It doesn't make sense.

HERMAN: There are a history of e-mails, apparently she was down at out. She felt depressed. It's all going to come in. There are no cameras. The state must prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt and ...

FRIEDMAN: Let's get real with this thing. Of course the case has to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt but what we have here are statements by the defendant himself, a pattern of abuse and violence toward women, overwhelming evidence and you want to know something, the defense obviously has put on no evidence at this point. All we've heard is an opening statement by a defense lawyer. That's all we've heard.

And you want to know something, the prosecution, through Alan Jackson (ph), who is the chief prosecutor, will put on rebutting evidence in terms of forensics, in terms of scientific evidence. But you know what, these jurors aren't stupid.

WHITFIELD: But the prosecution has to prove it.

HERMAN: Fred, this parade of witnesses, this is 12 to 20 years ago of activities that happened. Incontrovertibly, he has no prior criminal history for assault. I mean, it's ridiculous.

FRIEDMAN: So what?

HERMANS: You just said that makes it ...

WHITFIELD: You mentioned the reputation of the -- yeah, bashing of the women.

FRIEDMAN: The fact that he hasn't been prosecuted or the victims haven't sought prosecution means nothing. The question is not whether he's been prosecuted, the question is whether this is how he does things and you want to know something, the jury's going to see it. The prosecution started this case off with a bang, Fredricka. They put on his ex-girlfriend and this is exactly what we're going to hear from week after week after week, Fred.

WHITFIELD: And I can't imagine that it would be helpful, either, Richard or Avery, whichever wants to tackle this one, that the defense would then verbally bash this victim. I mean, she died. And apparently, there were some very disparaging words being said about Lana Clarkson and I would think that the jurors, jury pool, wouldn't like that at all.

HERMAN: Well, listen, Fred, first of all, Bruce Cutler is my brother. I have dinner with him every week. Poly Prep, Hamilton College, three year starter at right guard. He's a brilliant defense attorney. He's going to bring this defense. He's not going to unnecessarily bash any witness, but her prior histories are going to come out to show this was probably an accident, she killed herself, she went too far. She had a fascination with guns and it's a reasonable doubt case.

FRIEDMAN: The only thing that Bruce Cutler has done so far is suggested to his client to lose the finger in the socket hairdo. He's now looking like Florence Henderson. That's what's going on right now.

WHITFIELD: And I was worried that we wouldn't be able to get that in. But I did want to ask you guys something. This is crafted. The big hair one day and then a very coifed look the next.

FRIEDMAN: He looks like Julie Andrews right now.

WHITFIELD: Please, Avery says Bruce hasn't done anything. The case has just begun. The defense doesn't go until the prosecution finishes.

FRIEDMAN: He's giving an opening statement like it's the evidence. It's merely an opening statement. What we don't know what that evidence is.

HERMAN: Don't forget, Fred, Fred, hey, Fred, this is California. O.J. Simpson, Snoop Doggy Dog and Beretta all walked, think about that.

WHITFIELD: OK. It ain't over yet, gentlemen.

FRIEDMAN: That's for sure.

WHITFIELD: Avery and Richard, thanks so much.

FRIEDMAN: Nice to see you.

WHITFIELD: Always enjoy your points of view.

HERMAN: Thank you, Fred, take care.

WHITFIELD: Have a good weekend.

Well, the road runs out for the man known as the worst dad in America. I think everyone would agree on this one. We told you his story, a big-time felon let out of jail to donate a kidney to his dying son only to skip the country. Well today, he and his girlfriend are back. Here's CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Long before he was captured sporting a T-shirt from a Mexican resort, sickle (ph) father Byron Perkins as his girlfriend earned this colorful description from U.S. marshals.

RICK MCCUBBIN, U.S. MARSHAL SERVICE: It's like Kentucky's version of a modern-day Bonnie and Clyde. It's a couple that are in love, they are on the run, they are committing crime.

CANDIOTTI: Last January, marshals say Perkins and Lea Ann Howard plotted their getaway in coded jailhouse phone calls.

BYRON PERKINS, RECAPTURED FELON: Tell her to get my 38s and some socks and stuff.

LEA ANN HOWARD, PERKINS' GIRLFRIEND: I definitely don't need to forget my medicine.

CANDIOTTI: They even got lovey dovey.

HOWARD: I love you, Byron.

PERKINS: Yeah.

HOWARD: Just don't feel like you do anymore.

PERKINS: I do.

CANDIOTTI: In this Kentucky courtroom, Perkins tearfully convinced a federal judge to temporarily set him free for final donor testing for his teenage son Destin who desperately needed a kidney.

DAWN IZGARJAN, DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: Oh, I remember that day. He was crying. His defense attorney was almost in tears and I was sitting there thinking, what, what a great thing to do.

CANDIOTTI: Perkins fooled them all. When he and his girlfriend bolted, Perkins left his mother holding the bag, making her responsible for a $10,000 bond. He wrote her this inexplicable note.

"I'm not running out on Destin, so please don't think I am. I'll come through for him." What do you think he meant?

BARBARA BARR, PERKINS MOTHER: I don't know, but if he's going to come through, he needs to do it now.

CANDIOTTI: But Perkins did run out on Destin. No other relatives were a good match.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just couldn't believe he did it.

ANGIE HOWARD, DESTIN'S MOTHER: I don't understand why he couldn't have done the transplant. You know? To help Destin. I just, I don't understand.

CANDIOTTI: Then, an amazing break.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did he say they were doing down there?

CANDIOTTI: One day after CNN ran Destin's story, a couple flying home from his small Mexican ocean-side resort, recognized Perkins and Howard and called police. For over a year, the fugitive Kentuckians kept under the radar and one step ahead of the law.

DESTIN PERKINS, KIDNEY RECIPIENT: See what I mean?

CNADIOTTI: Last summer, Destin was on the mend after getting a new kidney from a stranger. His heart has not mended.

PERKINS: I don't think I could forgive him. I really want him back behind bars.

CANDIOTTI: You think he should be punished?

PERKINS: Yeah.

CANDIOTTI: Put behind bars.

PERKINS: Destin may get his wish. After someone fingered him in Mexico, Perkins is not only charged with jumping a court order, he still faces a minimum 25-year sentence on gun and drug violations. Not to mention facing the son he ran out on. Susan Candiotti, CNN, Miami.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, speak of folks who seem to be getting the label of bad dad. Alec Baldwin, well, he says he's sad, he's sorry and he could care less if he acts again. Do you believe that? So, what's he want to do now? Well, that is straight ahead.

And coming up at 3:00 p.m. Eastern, "Massacre at Virginia Tech." And we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: So now to the "Technofile." Bird watching is a time- honored pursuit but even that is going high-tech these days. CNN's Reynolds Wolf reports on what it's like to have a bird in the hand- held.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN SULLIVAN, BIRDER: That's the tufted tit-mouse singing.

REYNOLDS WOLF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Brian Sullivan is a world-class birder.

SULLIVAN: Here's a ruby-crowned kinglet and the Carolina chickadee. Here's another nuthatch on the trunk of this tree. See it?

WOLF (on camera): I sure do.

(voice-over): Last year Brian's team from the Cornell Lab of Ornithology won the World Series of birding, identifying 229 species in 24 hours. Well, I may not know as much as about birds as Brian, but he showed me how technology can help people like me as well as help researchers like him.

Brian is using Hand-Held Birds. It's a PDA loaded with information you'd find in any traditional bird identification book. Plus, it has more.

SULLIVAN: You want to hear a mallard?

WOLF (on camera): Sure, go ahead.

(voice-over): It has audio.

SULLIVAN: It also has a check-listing feature built in that allows you to record the birds you see in the field electronically. So, right now, I'm basically putting in numbers for all the species that we've seen. The when we get back to the studio, we can zip it into the database.

WOLF (on camera): OK. Let's do it.

(voice-over): The database is Cornell's citizen science project. It's called eBirds, it's a Web site where birders can keep track of their sightings and make a contribution to science.

SULLIVAN: And you can see here the species list. There's our mallard and great blue heron, red-bellied woodpecker. And now these observations are part of the eBird database so they are available to scientists or conservation biologists.

WOLF: Scientists use the information to learn more about birds as well as their habits. For instance, this map you see here tracks purple martin movements. It was generated with eBird data.

SULLVAN: As the summer goes on, you see these red dots, and what those represents are the communal roosts where thousands of these birds gather together and that allows us to identify potential roost sights that could be important to the species that we didn't know existed.

WOLF: No PDA, no problem. The PDA is not need to use eBird. You can enter your sightings manually. Last year, eBirders reported more than 4 million observations.

SULLIVAN: So, birders are now citizen scientists, in effect, and their data are being used and integrated with other scientific data so that conservationists can use them to protect birds and their habitat.

WOLF: Reynolds Wolf, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: So, wouldn't you know, look who's sorry now. Wishes he hadn't done it, harangue his 11-year-old daughter in an expletive- filled phone message, calling her a pig. Baldwin did penance on ABC's "The View."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEC BADLWIN, ACTOR: I want to say that I'm sorry to anyone that was offended by what happened. I'm sad about the way it all played out. And I have a dream in my heart, deep in my heart, to go out this door today and do something else with my life. If I never acted again, I couldn't care less. I would like to devote myself to the cause of parental alienation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Hmm. Alec Baldwin. Well, he's now writing a book about that. And he has been doing a lot of soul-searching with Dr. Phil. I'm Fredricka Whitfield at the CNN center. CNN's SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT unit is coming up a at 3:00 p.m. Eastern right after a check of the day's headlines. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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