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Kansas City Mall Shootings; Tenet's Tell-All

Aired April 29, 2007 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Rick Sanchez, it's 7:00 on the East Coast. We're here in B control because we've got a lot of pictures that we expect to be sharing with you shortly about a breaking news story taking place in Kansas City. Let's go ahead and let some of the pictures describe some of this awful story for shoppers who were doing nothing more than hanging out at a shopping mall today in Kansas City when a gunman came in and started shooting.
We're trying to get as many of the facts and figures and numbers to this story as we possibly can, but some of the information has been changing.

Here's what we know. As far as the shopping mall is concerned, and that's an important point because there's other parts to this story. There may have been a shooting not far from this mall which may have begun, this spree, as it were, but let's stick to the mall if we can.

At the mall, which is the Ward Parkway Mall in Kansas City, you're looking at pictures there on both sides. The picture that you see on the left is from the parking lot. There you see the bullet casings. Take that one out a little bit so they can see it a little better. The one on the left if you could, Claude. Take that one full so you can see it.

See the casings there? That's how police investigate a shooting that has just taken place. Each one of those little marks you see there is from a bullet casing fired either by the police or by this suspect who went into the mall and started shooting random.

It's an investigation that is going on as we speak. We have been able to get some comments from police although we don't have the full picture at this point. We do know that he went into a mall. Apparently started at a Starbucks store where there's information that there may still be some victims. Because as many as three people at this point are apparently dead as a result of this random shooting at the mall.

We've been getting pictures in as well of the police when they first arrived at the scene. It was really some vivid pictures. You could almost see the expression on some of their faces as they arrive at scene.

We've got some of them now. Let's see if we can show you some of those. Here we go. OK. Stay with this picture. Stay with this picture. This is important anyway. This is a gas station which is about, according to the phone calls that we've made on this story, 15 miles away from the shopping mall.

Police at this point are led to believe that there was a shooting -- no, better, a shootout, according to what some of the witnesses are telling us that took place here at this gas station. It appears, according to some of the information that's coming in at this point, that police came upon the suspect there, asked him some questions, don't know what kind of words were exchanged but soon after that the suspect started shooting at the police officer.

We're told that several shots were fired back and forth and soon after that the suspect left that location that you saw there, that gas station and then headed for the mall where this shooting ensued.

Five people in all is what we're told that have been either shot dead or injured as a result of this shooting. Police confirmed to us just really within the last half hour that one of those is the victim himself, that he was shot dead himself and that he's in the mall.

Don't know though whether he shot himself or whether a security guard or police officers or one of the first responders who arrived at the mall actually took him down. We're still filtering through some of that information.

We do, though, have some interviews now that are coming in. Police officers have just now started getting some of the first statements on what's been taking place here. This one came in just about 15 minutes ago. It's Tony Sanders. He's one of the public information officers there for the Kansas City Police Department, and I do believe, Claude, do we have that sound. Let's go ahead and roll that now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SGT. TONY SANDERS, KANSAS CITY, MO. POLICE: In total we have three crime scenes. The initial crime scene which started about 2:00 this afternoon where we went to conduct a death investigation on the 3700 block of East 93rd Street, we have where the gunman was confronted by an officer in a vehicle on 1330 East Bannister and of course we have the shopping center here at the 8500 block of Ward Parkway.

QUESTION: Now, Tony, you mentioned 9700 block of 93rd Street. What happened there?

SANDERS: Actually we were out there to conduct a death investigation. We were actually called to the residence on a person that lived that that residents had not seen for some time, went out there and discovered that in fact we had a person inside that was deceased. We hadn't determined whether or not it's the homeowner, but that started the whole investigation and that's when we put out the information that the victim's car was missing. We found the car a short a little later at 1330 East Bannister and then came over here to Ward Parking Shopping Center.

QUESTION: Tony, three people dead, two victims and one shooter, correct? SANDERS: That's correct. Right now we probably have more victims than the two that have actually contacted us but those are the two that have actually contacted us and said they were shot here at the Ward Parkway Mall outside the Ward Parkway Mall.

QUESTION: How many injuries do we have in total, other people who may have been shot, possibly have been sent to the hospital?

SANDERS: We know two people have gone to the hospital not counting the officer. He's being treated for his injuries, of course. They appear to be non-life-threatening but we have had two other people that have contacted us that said they were shot outside the mall.

QUESTION: What happened -- can you describe initially what exactly happened as the gunman arrived here at Ward Parkway Mall?

SANDERS: What I can tell you is it's a Sunday afternoon in Kansas City, and one of our busiest malls, and, of course, it was crowded. You had a lot of people that were trying to get out once they saw a man with a long gun as they should have. They called the police department. We got numerous calls into the department on the man coming into the mall with a long gun. Officers went inside. Both Kansas City police officers and Leawood, Kansas police officers because it situated here on the state line, and went inside and basically stopped the gunman.

QUESTION: Did the shootings occur inside and outside, or either/or?

SANDERS: We found out after initially the gunman, once he got here, we'd discovered that he shot two people in the parking lot and killed them. They died from their injuries on the scene. We found that out after the fact.

All we knew is once we got here at the mall that there's a man inside with a long gun walking through the mall.

QUESTION: And tell me how he was shot dead. Two off-duty officers?

SANDERS: I can't go into details right now about how it happened because right now we really don't know. Our standard procedure is to question those officers, and we allow our shooting team to come in and do their investigation so the officers don't have to repeat their story over and over and over again.

QUESTION: Shooter's body is located where?

SANDERS: He's inside the mall.

QUESTION: Do you know whereabouts?

SANDERS: I'm not going to get into the particulars but he is inside the mal.

QUESTION: The store and mall completely in lockdown?

SANDERS: Yes, it is. It's a giant crime scene, if you will. We want to find out exactly what happened and where the man came in, if he confronted anyone inside the mall, if he said anything. We're trying to work backwards, as you can imagine a scene like this. It's going to take a lot of time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: That's Tony Sanders bringing us the latest information. Now let's go ahead and see if we can show you some of the other pictures we've been getting in. Watch the officers' reaction, this is them getting ready just as they arrive at the scene and you're about to see another officer here.

He arrives, slams on his brakes and then really just -- just turns it on trying to run into the mall. I think that might be coming up here in just a bit. Remember, some of this video is unedited. We've been getting it over the course of the last hour as this story started to unfold. By the way, as we look at the pictures, let me bring you up to date on something we learned. It's confirmed now.

I mentioned that it seemed to have been the case but it's confirmed now that the officer - pardon me -- that the gunman was shot and killed by a police officer there on the scene. Now watch this video. Watch this video right here. This is one of the first officers to respond at the scene. Let's take it. Oh, goodness.

We'll try and see if we can get to it in just a bit. We heard from Tony Sanders. Let's go to reporter Tom Wait, KC-TV, who is there and he has been following the developments for us. Tom, bring us up to date. What do we know at this point and what do we need to let our viewers know about this story?

TOM WAIT, KC-TV CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, Rick, the entire mall is shut down. Three people have been killed as you heard from Tony Sanders, and one of those is the suspect.

We know that right now police are searching the mall, looking for any evidence connected to this. This is the Target that we're showing you right now.

We believe the shooting happened near this Target on the west side of the mall. This is one of the most popular malls in Kansas City in a very, very densely populated area, very crowded. It's a beautiful day here in Kansas City, and a lot of folks had been out at the mall today.

I talked to a few people who are in the mall at the time that this happened. They said they heard a number of shots, possibly a dozen. There were people who were nearby the gunman who said they thought the shots were coming from the Target, but we've learned it's possible and most likely that the gunman opened fire just outside the mall near the atrium where there's an entrance on the west side of the mall right on the state line between Kansas and Missouri, just to kind of give you an idea for those folks obviously not in Kansa City. This mall is right on the border between Kansas City and also on the Kansas side and Missouri side. There are multiple police departments working this story right now because there are so many things going on. There are so many clues to pick up.

We understand that the suspect's car is still on the property here, that there are shattered windows, that somehow there may have been gunfire that hit that car, also hitting the windows that lead into the building.

We believe this may have started earlier this morning with a death investigation. Kansas City, Missouri police investigating whether an officer -- excuse me, a person had died at a house because folks were looking for a loved one.

There was then, a short time later, an officer-involved shooting and then there was this mall shooting, so there's multiple scenes here but the mall shooting being the most frightening and terrifying for folks here in Kansas City because this is so popular and there are so many children and folks inside this mall going about this business, going to the movies and going to various stores here.

So right now, of course, just kind of a frantic scene coming to an end as folks have calmed down. They are being interviewed inside the stores. There are officers talking to all the customers.

SANCHEZ: Hey, Tom?

WAIT: Yes, go ahead, sir.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. Let me just get in because you've raised a couple of interesting points that we were not aware of.

So, Claude, show them the video of the gas station again, just to catch the story up. Because we really almost to tell this story in intervals. You're looking there at the parking lot outside the gas station where there was a shooting.

We also had this video where you just heard moments ago Tom referred to where there also may have been a shooting or shootout with a police officer, but now, Tom, let's go back to something else you mentioned.

You're telling us now there's a possibility that there may have been a third shooting, possibly a homicide which may have preceded the shooting at the gas station. Tell us what you know about that.

WAIT: Right. OK. So police were going on the death investigation here in Kansas City. A relative had called the police, and they were worried about one of their relatives because his car was gone or there was some evidence possibly of foul play, so they were concerned about that, so police were called, and that's when a short time later, and we're not really sure about this sequence of events, police are still investigating this and have not revealed much detail on this part yet but the next part of this is where the officer was shot. Now we heard preliminary reports that this suspect was suicidal and possibly kind of in a state of mind where he wasn't sure what he was doing, of course, opening fire and hitting the officer in the arm, but, again, yes, this all started this morning with a relative calling about this particular -- possibly this particular person, worried that this person had either been harmed in some way, either by himself or by another person.

One other thing I want to mention here ...

SANCHEZ: Just to be clear, was that a homicide scene where this person called from?

WAIT: No. As far as -- the way they were describing it, it was a death investigation scene, so they weren't calling it a homicide. They were calling it -- the way they were characterizing it there is a death investigation which at that point we're just not sure.

SANCHEZ: I'm still not clear and I want to make sure we're clear so our viewers understand. Did someone die there today or recently?

WAIT: No. The reason why the relatives called this morning from what I've been told, they called police this morning because they were worried about a relative. That relative may have been the guy that opened fire on the officer and then here at the mall.

SANCHEZ: I see.

WAIT: That's possibly the connection here, but that's still being investigated. Again, this investigation only a few hours old, but as I said, maybe starting this morning with this death investigation and police going to the home.

SANCHEZ: I get it. I know how these things are. I've covered stories like this myself and I know sometimes it's about connecting the dots and making it all make sense and as long as we're clear and transparent with the viewer that the information is coming in and we're being fair to them.

Let's take you back to the mall now and ask you the question how that transpired. From what witnesses say, shooting began outside and then he what, ran into the mall, still armed? Did he continue shooting?

WAIT: Well, from what I've been told by several witnesses, I've talked to at least a dozen, most of them describe hearing the gunshots inside the mall, hearing the -- hearing the gunshots, but it's not clear exactly where the man was standing when he was shooting, but police believe the guy was standing outside.

One witness we spoke to said she indeed saw the gunman, that he had come out of his car, he was already bloody, and it looked like he had been through some kind of a struggle, possibly from earlier in the day.

Again, we were discussing those two other scenes, one the officer-involved shooting and then the death investigation prior to that, so at this point it's not clear how he got the wounds, but one witness described that this guy was a mess, that he was covered in blood and that he walked into the mall and, you know, and then the shots rang out and, again, you know, we're just not sure if it was inside or outside. But police believe right now the shots were fired outside of the mall.

SANCHEZ: Tom Wait, you've done a great job explaining that. And thanks for letting us press you on that. That's important information.

WAIT: No problem.

SANCHEZ: We just want to make sure we get some of that information out, and please, be mindful at home as you're watching this newscast that a lot of the information is still coming into us, and we're going to try to share as much as we can certainly vet before we give it to you.

We've also got a witness who we're going to be going to in just a little bit who is at the mall. We're trying to get that ready, but before we do that, let's bring in our own Mike Brooks, one of our own crime analysts here at CNN who happens to know a good bit about mall security and is joining us to now to kind of hopefully, Mike, allay our fears because so many people go to malls on weekends, and I'm sure they are all thinking, my goodness, could something like this happen to us?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST (on phone): Yeah, Rick, absolutely. People like -- When something like this happens, people say, "Oh, my God, this could happen anywhere in the country."

And here we have one of the most popular malls, Ward Parkway Center in Kansas City, which is owned and operated by Developers' Diversified Realty.

But then they have got security officers inside the mall that are trained. I just recently was part of a group, the George Washington Security - Homeland Security Policy Institute along with the International Council of Shopping Centers and we put together an awareness course for all security officers in malls and shopping centers across the country on chemical, biological, radiological, guns and explosive, suicide and terrorism, just in case something like this happens.

Hopefully some of these officers have been through the training. I'm trying to find that out right now.

SANCHEZ: Just - By the way, I just want to let the viewers know that you were just seeing one of the pictures from the mall from the outside. There's one of the pictures that we've been getting in now. That's the shot of the mall itself, it's that atrium area where a lot of the shoppers actually go in.

And if you look in the close, just to the left, that's a Starbucks cafe, and you can see that one open area. Thank you. That is a window that was shot out, as a matter of fact, and that's where we're told that the shooting began.

Mike, as we look at this picture, let me ask you a question. The fact that the shooting started outside the mall ...

BROOKS: Right.

SANCHEZ: ... before he ran inside, is that significant to security detail, because I know when you see these security officers, they tend to be more inside the mall than out in the parking lot?

BROOKS: They do, and a lot of malls, Rick, they hire off-duty police officers to actually work inside the malls and I'm here it was an off duty officer that actually was the one that shot and killed the suspect just inside the mall but, you know, it's really tough when you get the spillover from outside and going into a mall.

Because it's really tough to shut a mall down. People say well, when something happens, oh, maybe we should search everyone. No, you can't do that. We can't live in fear like this.

SANCHEZ: So look, the bottom line is, Mike, you know, if you're going to live in a free society like we do.

BROOKS: Exactly.

SANCHEZ: There's always going to be a possibility that some, I was going to use a word that I'll probably get mail for, some person will decide to do something like this, whether it be a stadium, a park, a mall or any place where people gather. Is there anything we as citizens, as residents, can do to prepare ourselves for this horrible eventuality?

BROOKS: You know, the whole thing I talk about, Rick, with people, no matter where you are, whether you're at home, you're at work, you're at a shopping center, you're at a sporting event, don't become complacent. Be aware what's going on around you and that's what probably saved a lot of lives today.

The police officers got there and tried to get the people out, tried to evacuate the mall. Apparently the two people killed were killed in the parking lot.

SANCHEZ: Right.

BROOKS: They were killed in the parking lot outside the target there at the mall, but, again, don't become complacent. Know what's going on around you and don't walk around with your head stuck in the sand. That's the bottom line. Just know what's going on around you. You can still enjoy yourself with you and your family but still know what's going on around you, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Mike Brooks, we thank you as usual for bringing us up to date adding a little common sense as we follow something like this, as difficult as it is to try to make sense out of something this horrible. It's happening in Kansas City. For those of you who may have just joined us, five people shot in Kansas City, three people dead, that includes the shooter. Police are still on the scene. They are trying to investigate.

We've got more pictures, more information that's going to be coming in. We also have a witness. Janet Coleman who we understand is going to be joining us in just a little bit.

Let's do this. Let's go ahead and take a quick break. We'll come back with more of this developing story right here on CNN as we bring it to you from B control. I'm Rick Sanchez.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back to B control I'm Rick Sanchez following a developing story, really breaking news because a lot of information still coming in.

This is a shooting in Kansas City and it is at a mall. Some taking place outside and some of it taking place just at the entrance there where the Starbucks is. There you see the casings that are being marked by police investigators. These are the criminologists that arrive at the scene and try to prepare the case in case it eventually has to go to court. They need to make sure how this thing exactly went down and apparently it went down ugly, folks.

We're being told by witnesses that a man showed up there with a gun, don't know exactly what kind of weapon he had on him at the time, but it started shooting, and it looks like it was a random shooting that went in.

We've also got some pictures - in fact, let's take you back. It's just before 4:00. Police officers get a call. Somebody is at the mall randomly shooting people. Watch this.

There you have it. That is the officers as they were arriving at the scene. I showed you that because as we were watching the story first develop we started seeing the officers arrive at the scene trying to make sense of what they could possibly do, fearing, of course, that other people would be shot inside the mall.

As it's being described to us, they got everybody out of the mall as soon as they possibly could, and it appears at this point that five people were shot in total. Three of them shot dead. It seems to include the gunman himself.

We've got somebody on the phone now who can probably shed some light on this story. It's Janet Coleman. We understand she was at the mall at the time. She's one of the people who were shopping, saw some of this story develop. Miss Coleman, thanks very much for joining us. Are you there?

JANET COLEMAN, WITNESS (on phone): Yes, I am here.

SANCHEZ: Take us through the first moment when you realized that there was something was going on. COLEMAN: Probably around 3:30 in the afternoon. I was at Katherine's (ph) in the window shopping and a young girl comes in and said there is shootings is going on. We didn't hear gunshots at that point. We got in, went to the back of the store, waited a couple minutes, and we didn't hear anything else, thought maybe it was fireworks or something, went back to our shopping and within about five minutes heard a large round of gunfire out in the parking lot area, and so we quickly moved to the back of the store. The staff got us to the back of the store and everything and shut the door and then within about two or three minutes the police arrived and then that's when I saw and some other people saw them chasing a young man who I thought was about 20 in the parking lot heading towards the Starbucks area because we're at the southwest end at Katherine's, and the Starbucks ...

SANCHEZ: Let me stop you there because you're reporting to us something that's different from what -- certainly not different but let's just say it's new information to us. You say you saw the police chase the suspected into the parking lot and shooting at him?

COLEMAN: No. I didn't say they were shooting. The gunman was in the -- the shooter I presume was a young man who had a gun in the parking lot and they were -- he was running towards the mall at that time. This is after the second set of gunshots went off.

SANCHEZ: Because we're trying to put the pieces here together and the information we've got from police is that in fact he was shot dead. Do you know if in fact he went inside the mall and that's where he was shot and killed?

If you don't know that, please just say so.

COLEMAN: I don't know where he was shot. I saw the gunman, which I presume was the gunman because he had a gun in his hand, looks like -- didn't look like a hunting rifle, didn't look like a revolver like the police would carry but some kind of in between and the man standing with me said it was a sawed-off shotgun. That's what another man said next to me. But they were running towards the mall.

SANCHEZ: Describe to us once again the weapon. You say it wasn't a revolver and it wasn't a rifle, somewhat in between.

COLEMAN: Looked bigger than a revolver and larger -- not as large as a hunting gun, something in between. And it was a male with dark hair, he was running in between cars. And either police or security guards were chasing him because the first people we saw coming outside were security guards from the mall, they might have been policemen. They were dressed in blue and then that's when all the police cars pulled up and a helicopter came up and by that time the chase was out of the parking lot and must have been inside the mall - I can only say I heard continued shooting.

SANCHEZ: You know, I can still sense the nervousness in your voice just as you're telling us this story. Boy, that must have been really something for you.

COLEMAN: Very scary.

SANCHEZ: I Imagine your heart must have been beating 100 miles an hour when this was going on, right?

COLEMAN: Well, on a normal Sunday my son would have been with us and he walks up and down that area and my daughter would have been with us. They would have been in Starbucks studying but this Sunday she at work, so it was very scary. A lot of us are crying. Because a lot of us bring our children. We make a date thing, shopping and the movies and like I said, normally my son would have been with me because he doesn't go into the Katherine's story while I shop for ladies' clothes.

He usually goes to Starbucks or target and that's why I was very scared that this could have been my child, could have been shot. Very sad.

SANCHEZ: Janet Coleman, we thank you for being good enough to share what was obviously a very difficult moment for you at this shopping mall there outside of Kansas City, a developing story, as those of you who may just be joining us may want to know why we're showing you these pictures constantly of this situation developing here outside or just in Kansas City, a mall where there's been a shooting, five people shot. Three of them dead.

We'll continue our coverage right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Hi, here's the breaking news that we're following for you right now. This is a mall just outside Kansas City. It is called the Ward Parkway Mall. There has been a shooting there, and not just a shooting but a random shooting which certainly perks our attention because there were people there. Like there are -- like there is on any Sunday all over America, who were just minding their business, shopping perhaps with their family when suddenly they were taken aback by someone who showed up at the mall with a gun and started firing at some of the people there. At the mall there are three people dead, that's including the gunman. Two other people who have been injured.

There was one other scene maybe tied to this. The gunman may have been in a shooting or shootout, certainly some kind of altercation with a police officer about 15 miles away, and we've got the picture of that also. If you got the gas station, Claude, if you wanted to show it to them, just so they can see from a reference point that there may have been another beginning to this. And we're also being told by a correspondent now there on the scene that there was also an investigation going on that there may have been another scene prior to this one. So there may be all together three scenes that led up to this shooting at this mall that police are now obviously investigating. They have closed down the mall. They described it for us just moments ago as one big giant crime scene, including the parking lot. We do have an interview that my colleague Fredricka Whitfield did not long ago. This is with one of the shoppers there at the mall as well. Her name is Queea Miller. Here was her take?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

QUEEA MILLER, SHOOTING WITNESS: I was just pulling up in the parking lot and my daughter had went in the hatch to put some pop in the cooler and we heard gunshots. And I told her -- she asked me was that gunshots and I said, yeah, get down and as she got down we heard a couple more gunshots so I got her to crawl around the front and get back in the truck and we laid our seats back, but as I was looking around I seen a man standing two cars over from me and right behind us. And he was -- he had started shooting again and I actually seen the gestures of his hand where he had reloaded the gun and as he reloaded he just started shooting again. So we just laid in the truck and as I seen the police start -- the sirens coming and the police started running with their guns I gestured and made my daughter get out of the car and we ran into import -- Pier One.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: So, let me get this straight. As you were in your car and getting ready to go shopping, everything seemed completely calm then suddenly you heard this gunfire and then you actually see this gunman reloading.

MILLER: Yes, I actually did, and as -- like I said, we had just pulled up and she got right out of the car. And as I drove past, we drove past right where I seen him standing. I didn't see anybody with a gun so I -- it's just crazy. My heart was at my feet.

WHITFIELD: Oh, my goodness. I know it was, and so what continued to happen as this gunman was unloading, you know, this hail of gunfire. What else could you hear after that, and did you see, you know, police officers and everybody else kind of arriving? What was the elapse of time?

MILLER: The elapse of time was the gunfire. And the gunfire never ceased. As I seen the police officers arriving there was still gunfire going on but I thought and told her to get out of that car because the gunfire started sounding more distant. It wasn't close anymore and it got more and more distant, and as it got distant and I seen the police officers everywhere fully armed, guns out and everything, I told her to jump out that truck and that's when we ran into Pier One.

WHITFIELD: When you saw this man, when you could tell that this was indeed the gunman, about how far away in feet or yards, can you tell me that?

MILLER: I actually can't tell you how many feet. I'm saying, I'm in an SUV and there were two SUVs on the side of me and he was two SUVs over and maybe the driving part of the parking lot, back.

WHITFIELD: That was close.

MILLER: That was very close.

(END OF AUDIO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: There's the description from one eyewitness there at the scene. We also have another one. In fact, our executive producer Tenisha Abernathy was on the phone moments ago with one of the workers at the Target, so you've seen those pictures, right, the Target is right there adjacent to the coffee shop there, the Starbucks cafe, and she says at this point she saw what happened but she's too shaken up to go on the air and talk to us right now. She's still having a tough time dealing with what she saw. If we get a chance to talk to her and get her story, we'll bring it to you. If she feels uncomfortable doing so then we won't. Just to let you know what we're working on for you. In the meantime as we continue to develop this story, there's more information coming in and as we get it we'll have it for you right here. I'm Rick Sanchez, we're in "B" control with this breaking news story coming out of Kansas City.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: All right, here's the breaking story that we're following for you. Apparently there has been a very serious shooting at a shopping mall. Apparently a random shooting, no doubt. It's right there inside. Let me just make sure I get the name of it for those of you who may be familiar with it, by the way it's the Ward Parkway Mall, it's just outside Kansas City. Five people shot, three people dead, one of them is the gunman. There may have been other shootings related to this about 15 miles away from where this is. We've been getting sound interviews as it were from different people who were at the mall. We've put a couple of them together just so you can get a sense of what took place there. Let's go ahead and roll that Clyde.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was at the register closest to the inside of Target, not the ones closer to the doors. The next thing I heard people were screaming and yelling and I look up and people were just running and crying. And I started to step out into the aisle and like two people just like knocked into me, knocked me to the ground. And someone helped me up and said you need to get out of here, someone's shooting. And then I heard like the third round of shots in the Target.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was getting a tent and we were in the candy department, and then this woman is like run, run, run, there's someone shooting, and then we heard five shots go off and then we all just started running out to the exits, and there was everybody just dropping their stuff and throwing it on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then we saw -- we heard a man yelling at his daughter. I don't know what he was -- he just seemed like he was just mad at his daughter and then we saw a bunch of people just running down the aisles. We said what's going on? We don't know. So we just started -- I asked this one lady I said, she said I think there were shots in the mall or something, and so we started to head towards the front door. People went out the emergency exit and then we heard three or four shots in Target.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Once again, and just to be clear this is important to the story, it does appear at this point that it was a random shooting. From every witness we've heard and from police officers we've heard detail what happened outside this mall, it does not appear that there was any connection between the shooter and the people who were shot, the victims. Obviously that's something we are still looking into. As we are, the possibility that this really originated at another scene, a gas station about 15 miles away, where there was a shootout with police possibly involving this gunman and possibly another altercation prior to that. The police are now trying to tie all these together as they investigate and as they share the information with us, we're going to be sharing it with you.

In the meantime, a lot of other news that we're following on this day, politicians say a lot of things during their campaign season. This particular weekend with all the Democrats having straw polls, we're going to be taking a look at which candidates' actions are backing up their words. It's part of the hypocrisy question in politics. We're going to examine it. And then later, the firestorm around a new book by the former CIA director George Tenet. We're going to talk with his former deputy John McLaughlin who was in the room when many of those meetings detailed in the book took place. There he is on the left of your screen. We'll have his comments in just a bit and obviously if anything happens in Kansas City we'll take you back there and brief you. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back, we are in "B" control bringing you breaking news of this situation in Kansas City, hoping to update you as we get more information, and hope to do so in fact over the next 15 minutes and through the night, by the way. But let's pick up on another story, politics obviously the big topic of conversation all over the country, this weekend in particular. Hillary Clinton, she condemned Don Imus for his comments about the Rutgers' women's basketball team, but to be sure just last month the presidential candidate went on a fundraiser held by producer Timbaland who uses similar language if not worse on his own rap music. So there's a question, does Mrs. Clinton need to put her money where her mouth is in this story and return the $800,000 or so in campaign funds? Here's John Mercurio.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Joining us now is John Mercurio, he is with National Journal's "The Hotline" and we're talking about what is a bit of hypocrisy. John, obviously when it comes to this time with elections coming up you're going to get it but there are some specifics that we wanted to point out to you. Let's start with Hillary Clinton. She was really hard on Don Imus but at the same time she's taking some campaign funds from groups, let me see if I can get this right, rapper/producer Timbaland is one of them who has given her money. Should she give that money back after all they use the same kind of words that Don Imus has used?

JOHN MERCURIO, NATIONAL JOURNAL'S "THE HOTLINE": Yeah I mean I think it's part of a larger problem for Hillary Clinton and it's probably the largest challenge she faces in this Democratic primary is trying to convince voters that she is sincere. I mean, you obviously have the Don Imus situation, you also have her vote in 2002 to authorize the war in Iraq. And I think what she's trying to do during this primary, she's taking a calculated risk. She doesn't want to apologize for the war vote. She doesn't want to return the money to Timbaland. She wants to try to convince people that she is sincere and when she does take these actions, accepting money from Timbaland, voting to authorize the war in Iraq, she's doing so with sincerity based on what she knows at the time. But you're right, I think it's part of being a Clinton, it's the struggle that both she and her husband have faced is convincing people that they don't act out of political calculation. She is, however, I think, effectively combating that.

SANCHEZ: It's a question of duplicity. Then there's Barack Obama's case, he's trying not to take any of the money from lobbyists. He's given back $50,000 because of the argument that he made about that. But here's the question, is he going to be able to hold true to that? That's a tough road to hoe, my friend?

MERCURIO: It's a very tough road to hoe. I think one of the biggest reasons that he is coming on so strong in this Democratic primary is because he is maintaining an image of consistency and sincerity. He also did recently accept some campaign contributions from sort of a shady businessman in Chicago who he's known for several decades in Chicago politics.

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you. In Obama's case, and since we're on the theme of hypocrisy, is it more show than go?

MERCURIO: Well I mean he's got a record, he's got a pretty good record from the Illinois Senate where he served for eight years as having been focused on issues like ethics reform and in his first two years in the Senate here in Washington he's doing the same thing. He's not just sort of talking the talk, he is sort of walking the walk. But you know he was opposed to the war from the very beginning, he's been consistent on that. But, he went and raised money for Joe Lieberman, a very pro-war Democratic senator who faced an anti-war primary challenge last year and a lot of people saw that as sort of a point of hypocrisy.

SANCHEZ: By the way, Joe Lieberman who's real good at raising money himself and can help you down the line, let's keep that in mind so it wasn't something done just out of the goodness of his heart for Joe Lieberman. Rudy Giuliani, here's an interesting case, and a lot of people in both parties would say that there's a little bit of hypocrisy there as well. Rudy Giuliani is now as staunch a conservative as you've ever seen, yet historically, politically, he has not been a staunch conservative, certainly not on social issues, and certainly not in his private life, what's he's been married three times.

MERCURIO: Married three times. He came out last week and said that he's opposed to the Civil Unions bill that's being signed in New Hampshire, something that he had supported when he was mayor of New York City. But he's tried I think to walk a very, very narrow line as he does try to compete for Republican primary voters in states like South Carolina where they're extremely competitive.

SANCHEZ: You know what I think, John, when I see situations like this. I wonder just as a citizen, is he truly changing, and we all have a right to change, by the way, or is he just following the political winds?

MERCURIO: Well, I think that's a very good question. I think if you listen closely to Giuliani though, he isn't flip-flopping as much as some of his Republican primary opponents like Mitt Romney for example, who has almost had a total ideological transition from the time that he came into politics in the early '90s.

SANCHEZ: John Mercurio, good going. Thanks so much for being with us.

MERCURIO: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: We certainly appreciate it.

(END OF VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Obviously, the other big political story that we're following has to do with former CIA director George Tenet and some of the statements that he's now making about the -- remember the famous term "slam dunk." Did he say it, did he not say it, did he not mean it, at least not to be used the way it was? This is what we're going to be breaking down for you in just a little bit. We'll going to be talking to his deputy, this is John McLaughlin, he's a CIA analyst, you're looking at him there. We're going to break down this big controversy in this new book that's coming out. There's a lot to talk about so stay with us, we're coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. We're inside CNN "B" control. I'm Rick Sanchez, we're going to be bringing you more information on that developing story taking place in Kansas City, where five people have been shot, three people are dead, that includes the gunman. May be other parts to this story as well and we're trying to flush those out for you.

In the meantime, big story developing also tonight on a competing network. George Tenet is fighting back and he's going after both Democrats and Republicans on this one. In his new book "At the Center of the Storm" the former CIA director takes aim at former President Clinton and Vice President Cheney. Tenet appeared on "60 Minutes" tonight promoting his book. Said of Cheney this, "The hardest part of all this has just been listening to this for almost three years; listening to the Vice President go on "Meet the Press" on the fifth anniversary of 9/11, you know, and you say, "Well George Tenet said slam dunk." He goes on to say, "As if he needed me to say slam dunk to go to war with Iraq. As if he needed me to say that. And you listen to that, and they never let it go."

Those are George Tenet's words on "60 Minutes" tonight n a report. Now despite the evident disdain that Tenet expressed for some in the administration he agreed with them on one point. Tenet denied that the administration authorized the use of torture. Tenet now. Let's take that again. Here it is. "The image that's been portrayed is we sat around the campfire and said "Oh boy. Now we get to go torture people. Well we don't torture people. Let me say that to you again, we don't torture people, ok?" Pelley, Scott Pelley, the reporter for "60 Minutes" then asks, "Come on George." Tenet responds, "We don't torture people." Pelley says, "Khalid Sheik Mohammed." Tenet says, "We don't torture people." Pelley says, "Water-boarding." Tenet says, "We do not. I don't talk about techniques, and we don't torture people."

Interesting conversation. All of this on "60 Minutes" tonight. We thought it was important enough to want to share it with you. Joining me now to break it down is -- George Tenet and his book and the accusations that they level is John McLaughlin, now John McLaughlin is one of our analysts, he was also Tenet's second in command and he's good enough to join us now. Mr. McLaughlin thanks for being with us, sir.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CIA: Good evening, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Let's make sure we read him right. Is he saying, yes, I went along with the intelligence at the time. I did say slam dunk, but I'm not the reason they went to war and I'm tired of hearing that. That's what I'm hearing. Is that what he's saying?

MCLAUGHLIN: I think that's an accurate read, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Why if he's saying that is he waiting to say it now and a lot of Americans would wonder Mr. McLaughlin why didn't he say it before? Why didn't he raise his hand and say it when he was hearing intelligence that he may have believed to be conflictive at the time?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, in his book he will explain that he did on occasion, as I did, go to people privately and dispute interpretations of intelligence that we disagreed with. That's been done. As to why he's saying this exactly now and why he's written the book right now, bear in mind he was director for seven years. That's not a book you write in seven days. His book is not anything like a sound bite. It's about 550 pages long. He had to go through boxes and boxes of documents. He interviewed lots of people, and frankly, as I understand it, he wanted to step back and get some historical perspective plus put yourself in his shoes. There have been five or six books written about him defining him and I think George said it's time I define myself and my time, put it out there and let people react, and I'm sure some will like it and some won't.

SANCHEZ: Well let's talk about the vetting. You were there in a lot of these meetings, correct?

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, yes, I was.

SANCHEZ: What were the atmospherics in the room when the triumphant Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Mr. Wolfowitz and others as powerful would walk in and make a suggestion, was there room for others to say I don't go along with that? I don't believe that? How about this counterpoint, because it sounds that the more information we get that there was very little of that.

MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, no. There was plenty of that. It's hard to talk about it in the abstract, Rick, just in terms of all of the meetings we were in. There were lots of meetings where there was plenty of give and take and certainly neither George Tenet nor myself were shy about speaking up when we had a disagreement and we did that quite a bit.

SANCHEZ: Let me just press you on that if you don't mind for just a moment.

MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.

SANCHEZ: When those meetings were taking place in the run up to the war in Iraq, were Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld in particular told point blank, no, you're wrong, that's not true. That intelligence is not what you believe it is. Were they ever told something like that?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, bear in mind we have to make one big distinction here. On WMD analysts and frankly all of us believed he did have WMDs so there was not a matter there of disputing the existence of WMDs. On the other issue though, Rick, let me make this point. On the other issue that's often discussed, that is whether there was some relationship between Saddam Hussein and 9/11, you bet you. We spoke up and said that we did not agree that there was a relationship.

SANCHEZ: Then why did the administration continue to press that point?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, because it was a contentious issue. I mean, to give the administration their due, there were a lot of reports coming in that suggested such a relationship or that could be interpreted in that way. We didn't think they were valid and our only point to the administration was you're entitled to have your own opinion on these matters, but what you're not entitled to do is to portray it as the opinion of the intelligence community.

SANCHEZ: Did you say that, or did somebody say that to them?

MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, sure, yeah. That's -- that's what DCIs do, that's what the director of Central Intelligence -- you have to be the skunk at the picnic. On that issue, yes.

SANCHEZ: And who was leading the picnic at the time? Was it Mr. Cheney?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, you know I think this is all pretty well documented in a lot of the material that's been public. Yes, there were -- vice president had a strong conviction and, again, to give him his due on this, it wasn't something he was just making up. He's the thoughtful man who had gone through the reporting and he connected the dots that way.

SANCHEZ: Well hold on.

MCLAUGHLIN: Now we connected the dots a different way.

SANCHEZ: But let's go to a different set of dots. Let's talk about the uranium allegedly coming from Niger where there was this deal, with Niger.

MCLAUGHLIN: Right.

SANCHEZ: Where there was this deal made. The president goes on to then say this in a state of the union where everything that I've read leads me to believe that there were people in your department and in state that knew that this was not the case. Why then did the president go on and say this? Why didn't you or Mr. Tenet stop him and say, Mr. President, don't do this? That's wrong.

MCLAUGHLIN: Complicated issue. But let me say this. There were at least two occasions prior to the state of the union in September and in October of 2002 when we sent messages to the White House saying do not use that material in a presidential speech, prior presidential speech. I believe I told the Congress in testimony in October of 2002 that we disagreed with the British view which was endorsing that reporting. How did it get into the state of the union speech, there's a whole chapter in George's book on that called 16 words. To boil it down as George did on "60 Minutes" tonight, the system for clearing that speech broke down at the CIA. It came out to the CIA, it was farmed out in pieces throughout the building. We were focused on some other things at the time that was about the time just before the Homeland Security Department was being created, the contentious part of the speech had to do with creation of something called the terrorist threat integration center. And it slipped through. Now, from one point of view when George issued his statement in July of 2003, he took a partial sphere on this. In other words he said, our system broke down, we should have caught it. At the same time he said, it shouldn't have gotten in there. Because we told you before not to use it.

SANCHEZ: Wow!

MCLAUGHLIN: So it's complicated, but he takes his share of responsibility for that.

SANCHEZ: So much to talk about.

MCLAUGHLIN: As do I.

SANCHEZ: No, and I thank you sir for coming forward and doing so. So much to talk about, so much information of import to really the history of our country. So we thank you for talking about this. John McLaughlin --

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