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Police Swarm a Shopping Mall; Interview With Former Acting Director of the CIA John Mclaughlin

Aired April 29, 2007 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's someone shooting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Police swarm a shopping mall. A gunman firing at random.

High profile he said, he said. Who's to blame for invading Iraq? Is it CIA or CYA? You decide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Also have a tendency to use that word illegal over and over again as if...

LOU DOBBS: Well, I mean illegal.

SANCHEZ: Well, I know, but it's...

DOBBS: Why would I not use "illegal"? They're illegal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Heated, but respectful and smart. Lou Dobbs and I go mano a mano. Get it.

Hecklers, the new trend, being rowdy, rude, downright crude. All this in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. Welcome to "B" control. We're going to bring you the news tonight because there is a lot going on in Kansas City, Missouri. That is where there has been a shooting at a shopping mall. Three people are dead, that's including the shooter.

Let's take you back now, because we've got a lot of video that's been coming in. Take a look at this.

We're letting you hear that just so you can see the emotion for police officers. They get the call this afternoon that there has been a shooting at the mall. It appears to be, in fact, a random shooting. Someone who had arrived there and started shooting first outside at a Starbucks cafe, then presumably gone inside the mall. As you can see from some of the pictures that we're getting in, they tried to clear all the people who were inside the mall at the time. We're going to be speaking to many of them. In fact, we've been talking to them for the better part of the last couple of hours now.

We're also told tonight by some police officials that this story actually have begun earlier in the day. We've got one particular photo. Claude, if we can show them that picture. You're going to see now this gas station. Police officers are now saying they were looking for a specific suspect. They found him at this gas station, or at least one of their officers did. The officer approached them, a shootout ensued. The officer was shot, the suspect got away, and then he went to that shopping mall that we have been talking about.

But even before all of this, police are now telling us tonight, they have confirmed it actually began early in the morning, before the shopping mall incident, before the gas station incident. That's when they said, they found a body. They say it was a homicide and they say the person responsible is the one who's now ending up at both the shopping mall and the gas station.

What a story. We do have witnesses who've been talking to us throughout the course of the evening. Here's one of them. His name is Travis Johnson.

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TRAVIS JOHNSON, WITNESS: I was like the register closest to the inside of Target, not the ones closer to the doors. The next thing I heard, people were screaming and yelling. And I look up and people were just running and crying. And I started to step out into the aisle. And like two people just like knocked into me, knocked me to the ground. And someone helped me up and said, you need to get out of here, someone's shooting. And then I heard like the third round of shots in the Target.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Now what we can do by looking at some of the pictures is show you how this story preceded, certainly at the shopping mall. Go ahead, Claude, if you've got some of those pictures. And you'll see just outside that cafe that we mentioned.

You see each one of those markers right there? Each one of those markers is put there because there are casings that have been fired either by the subject, this suspect that police have been talking to us about tonight, who seem for no reason that we know yet, to have gone in this mall and started shooting at people, or they're police officer casings, because they, according to witnesses that we have talked to, tried to shoot back at him. And he was, according to police, in fact shot dead. We don't know exactly where, but that's part of the investigation.

Now we also have shots of the mall and the Starbucks cafe. Let's see if we can get that one up. And you'll see the area where the first original shooting took place.

All right, you see the atrium there of the mall. You see the beginning or the opening of the mall? Now look just to the left. And you'll notice that some of those window panes are missing. In fact, we're going to zoom in on it for you in just a little bit. And you'll be able to see it.

That's where we're being told the original shooting took place, just outside that Starbucks cafe that you're looking at right there. Original report was that there were actually people inside the Starbucks. Now we don't know if they were shot, ended up taking cover there. Two of the bodies that were recovered apparently in that area.

We're going to be talking to officials, who have been trying to bring us up to date and others in the media throughout the day of what's happened. It's very much a confusing story.

Tony Sanders is the police information officer for the area of Kansas City. He's good enough to join us now to bring us up to date on what's going on.

Officer Sanders, thanks so much for being with us, sir.

SGT. TONY SANDERS, KANSAS CITY, MO. POLICE: You're welcome.

SANCHEZ: Can you try and make some sense of this for us? Because the latest report that we received from you, and this was only probably about a half hour ago, was that you've now been able to provide some linkage between an incident that happened this morning, a homicide, an incident that happened soon after in the afternoon apparently at a gas station, and the incident at the mall. Can you put - can you tie those together for us?

SANDERS: I'll do the best I can. Our information is that earlier in the day, we were called to a residence in the southern part of Kansas City, where a relative of a person had not seen them for several days and had decided to call the police because they felt something was wrong.

Once our officers got there, and the homicide investigators and detectives arrived on the scene, they in fact found a person inside deceased by unknown means and began what they considered was death investigation.

They realized, based on the relative's report that the person who lived there, their vehicle was missing. They put that out through our communications system and let all the officers in the city know that that vehicle was one of those that we were looking for. And there was -- shortly thereafter, that one of our officers had come upon that vehicle with someone inside and attempted to stop and question that person.

SANCHEZ: All right, we're looking at a picture now of a gas station. Is that where the officer confronted the person who was driving that vehicle? SANDERS: That's correct. That's situated on Banister Road in our city. The officer actually turned on red lights and siren and stopped the man in the vehicle. It was at that point that the man produced a gun and shot the officer in the arm.

SANCHEZ: Do you suspect that that very person, that you confronted there at that gas station, was the same person who may have been guilty of the homicide at the house earlier that morning?

SANDERS: We have reason to believe there was just some connection there. And of course, it was early in the investigation. So we definitely wanted to question that person and talk to them. We know that they know something being in the victim's car.

SANCHEZ: So...

SANDERS: So we did want to talk to him.

SANCHEZ: So there is reason to believe that he shot someone in the home early in the morning. Then he gets into a shootout with police at the gas station. And then he goes onto the mall. Is there anything that you can tell us that would lead to some kind of motive as to why he went to the mall and did what he did?

SANDERS: Right now, we have absolutely no idea why he would have come to the mall. We do know that once he got here, that he immediately approached two people that were outside of their vehicles and shot and killed both of those in the parking lot. And that's when he began to fire into the mall itself, into Starbucks cafe, and walking through the mall and actually shooting off a long rifle that he had.

SANCHEZ: No connection that you can tell at this point to any of the victims?

SANDERS: At this point of our investigation, it all appears to be random from the time that the officer happened -- on happenstance, after receiving information that he contacts the man on Banister Road at the gas station. And then the man comes over to the mall and begins to shoot and kill people. We have no idea why he would have done it. And right now, we're investigating him as a random shooter.

SANCHEZ: We are -- I'm asking you this question because we here at CNN hat just prepared a special, given what happened at Virginia Tech recently, on people who may be among us who would literally do things like this. And we had received word from one of the reporters on the scene that you suspect the man was somehow deranged. Do you have anything you could share with us that would lead us to better understand that theory?

SANDERS: I do not have personal information on who the man is. We haven't positively identified him as of yet. We do that through fingerprints and what have you. And the man, his body, once he was contacted by police inside the mall, he was shot and killed by police. And we haven't moved the body because we're still processing the crime scene here. SANCHEZ: Tony Sanders, we thank you, sir. Public information officer there in Kansas City. We really appreciate the diligent effort you've made to try and bring us up to date on this story. And we'll be getting back to you if anything changes, sir.

SANDERS: You're welcome.

SANCHEZ: Let's do this. Let's talk to one of the reporters that we've been talking to throughout the course of the day. He's Tom Wait. In fact, he was the first one to clue us in onto the possibility that this thing was not isolated to the shopping mall.

You were right, Tom. Bring us up to date now on what you've learned there from the scene.

TOM WAIT, REPORTER: Well, right now, Rick, this entire area is a huge crime scene. The mall is locked down. And this is one of the most popular malls in Kansas City. And no one knows right now when it will reopen. So that is the big news, of course, right now.

And of course, the victims who were lost in this awful shooting. This was a beautiful day in Kansas City. So many people out today. This mall was teeming with shoppers. And then that gunman opened fire.

SANCHEZ: You know, I'm wondering, as I listen to you, whether you've talked to any of the people there, because I asked this question of the police officer. Did anybody say they recognized the gunman or saw him make contact with anyone or say something to anyone before he shot them?

WAIT: Well, the information I have is that he pulled up in the parking lot and then opened fire on either side of his car. And that's where his first two victims, or his first two victims were hit. And then I have a witness who told me that saw the man walk in, kind of bloodied. It look like he had been in some sort of tussle, probably from the earlier scenes. Obviously, there was a lot of other situations that you've been hearing about from the public information officer here in Kansas City.

So this man was disheveled and wounded, it appeared to the one woman who saw him. She said that he walked in the mall. And she was paying her cell phone bill. And all of a sudden, he just pulled out his gun and started shooting for no apparent reason.

And as you said, it was right by that Starbucks, kind of by the main entrance in that atrium area, between a shoe store and that Starbucks. But people in Target and other folks I talked to said they heard gunshots. And it sounded like those gunshots were really close to them.

So again, the concern, of course, for a lot of folks in the mall. They didn't know where the gunfire was coming from. They just knew they heard gunshots.

SANCHEZ: Just to be clear, he did not kill himself. He was shot by police officers or security guards?

WAIT: Off-duty police officers who were working as security guards in the mall. So yes, I mean, essentially yes, they were police officers, but they were not in their full - I mean, they were not active duty per se.

SANCHEZ: One witness tells us that he was using perhaps a sawed off shotgun. She says it wasn't a handgun, it wasn't a rifle, it was something in between. And a man next to me told me that it was a sawed off shotgun. Have you been able to confirm that?

WAIT: Well, all we've been told by police, and it was a long rifle or big gun, but they aren't releasing a whole lot of information about the weapon that was used right now. And that possibly could be because they want to further investigate. But again, all the witnesses I spoke to said it looked like a pretty large weapon, a big gun. But they couldn't identify the exact kind of make and model of the weapons.

SANCHEZ: One last question because I know you're going to be doing coverage for your own station there. We certainly appreciate your time. How did police avoid him going on and shooting other people? Why did it stop there? Did the police arrive on time? Did he run out of ammunition? Do we know?

WAIT: Well, we don't know how much ammunition he had, but we do know that after the initial shooting in the parking lot, that the officers were able to rush to the area because there were witness reports that there were gunshots. So those off-duty officers who were inside the building did rush to the scene. And that's when they accosted the suspect.

But as you said, Rick, he did fire off a number of shots before that happened. And we still don't know from police exactly how many people were wounded. But again, it appears those off-duty officers were able to shoot him down before he was able to carry out an even more horrific crime.

SANCHEZ: Wow, what a story. Tom Wait, thanks so much. Good job bringing us up to date on all the information that you had to piece together to do this. And I know that there's a lot of information that's still forthcoming on this story. Thanks for hanging in there. We'll check back in with you throughout this newscast to get more information on this story.

There's another big story, by the way, that we're covering.

This one is on the West coast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is certainly a serious problem. I don't want to underestimate the difficulty of the task ahead of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: Yes, he's not kidding when he says huge task ahead of us. Take a look at this. This is a chunk of highway that's collapsed in the area around Oakland and San Francisco. Just happened out of the blue today. We're going to be bringing you lots of coverage on that.

And then also, George Tenet tells his side of the story. He is setting the record straight about the run-up to the Iraq War, or is he just trying to sell his book, some would ask.

And then later, immigration is a hot button topic when I go head to head with Lou Dobbs. By the way, we're going to be covering this all week here on CNN, and especially Tuesday. We're putting correspondents all over the country. Must see TV right here in the NEWSROOM. Lou and myself, mano, mano. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. There is developing news that we've been following for you in Kansas City. Let's go ahead and show you some of the images that have been coming in tonight. We've been talking to a lot of people out there.

And that's a mall out there in Kansas City. It's the Ward Parkway Center. And three people are dead there. It includes the gunman. Two others were shot, one officer at a nearby location, about 15 miles away at gas station, has also been shot. One person earlier in the day was also killed. Police say all of this as a result of one person. We're going to be taking you back there in just a little bit. But first, let's come out to me if we can, Claude.

George Tenet, he built his career on keeping secrets, but the former CIA chief is no longer staying silent with a new book that's coming out tomorrow and an appearance on tonight's "60 Minutes" that we've been following. Tenet speaks out on everything from the invasion of Iraq, to Vice President Cheney, to Condoleezza Rice.

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SANCHEZ (voice-over): George Tenet says, don't blame me. He implies he's tired of being made a scapegoat for the invasion of Iraq. Though he remained supportive of the administration for its interrogation techniques, he blasts them for not allowing an open process in the run-up to war. And he rips into Condoleezza Rice, who was then National Security Advisor.

He writes in his new book, "What we did not have is an integrated and open process in Washington that was organized to keep the peace, nor did we have the unity of purpose and resources on the ground. Quite simply," he says, "the NSC did not do its job." Rice deflected those comments on CNN's "Late Edition."

CONDOLEEZZA RICE: There were some things that went right and some things that went wrong. And you know what? We'll have a chance to look at that on history. And I'll have a chance to reflect on that when I have a chance to write my book. As for the use of so-called torture techniques, Tenet assures "60 Minutes" vehemently that it didn't happen. "We don't torture people." He repeated the line several times.

But Tenet left his most personal comment for Vice President Dick Cheney. He accuses the vice president of using his term "slam-dunk" as a basis to go to war, when he knew that wasn't the case. In fact, here's what Tenet says about "being thrown overboard." "It's the most despicable thing that's ever happened to me," he says. "Is that honorable? It's not honorable to me."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Now John Mclaughlin is one of our analysts. He was also Tenet's second in command. And he's good enough to join us now. Mr. Mclaughlin, thanks for being with us, sir.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CIA: Good evening, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Let's make sure we read him right. Is he saying, yes, I went along with the intelligence at the time, I did say slam-dunk, but I'm not the reason they went to war and I'm tired of hearing that. That's what I'm hearing. Is that what he's saying?

MCLAUGHLIN: I think that's an accurate read, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Let's talk about uranium allegedly coming from Niger...

MCLAUGHLIN: Right.

SANCHEZ: ...where there was this deal in Niger.

MCLAUGHLIN: Right.

SANCHEZ: Where there was this deal made. The president goes on to then say this in state of the union, where everything that I've read leads me to believe that there were people in your department and in state that knew that this was not the case. Why then did the president go on and say this? Why didn't you or Mr. Tenet stop him and say, Mr. President, don't do this. That's wrong.

MCLAUGHLIN: Complicated issue, but let me say this. There were at least two occasions prior to the State of the Union in September and in October of 2002, when we sent messages to the White House saying, do not use that material in a presidential speech, prior presidential speech. I believe I told the Congress in testimony in October of 2002, that we disagreed with the British view, which was endorsing that reporting.

How did it get into the State of the Union speech? There's a lot of - there's a whole chapter in George's book on that called "16 Words." To boil it down as George did on "60 Minutes" tonight, the system for clearing that speech broke down at the CIA.

(END VIDEOTAPE) SANCHEZ: CNN's analyst John Mclaughlin, good to have him. Tenet will do his first live primetime interview tomorrow with Larry King at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN. We'll be watching.

Coming up, the Monday commute is going to be a mess in the Bay area. Take a look at this. This is a - really just a big chunk of highway. That's what's left. Can you imagine? Can you imagine somebody driving on that at the time? No doubt drivers are going to be using an alternate route for weeks, in fact. We're going to bring you an update because we know this is going to affect millions of people in San Francisco tomorrow.

Also, he started hiking in the woods, but ended up in - well, ER. This dramatic rescue is next in the NEWSROOM. We brought it to you yesterday. Back today. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We've been showing you that big breaking news story out of Kansas City. Well, guess what? There's another developing story that we've been following today. Take a look at this video. This is from northern California, just before dawn today. A tanker truck hauling thousands of gallons of gas suddenly crashed near the Bay Bridge. This is the one that connects Oakland to San Francisco, for those of you familiar with it.

Fire so intense, so big, it caused the road overhead to suddenly buckle. And it folded like a piece of taffy. Look at this! Several major highways converge at this one spot. Repairs could take, we're told, well, look at it. It doesn't take an architect to figure out that thing's going to take months to fix.

Let's go to Christine Conley from our San Francisco affiliate, KRON, K-R-O-N. What are they telling...

(AUDIO GAP).

Here's what she's going to try and explain to us. What's going to happen there tomorrow when people try and go to work?

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CHRISTINE CONLEY, KRON NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mass transit officials are trying to make sure this mess won't create a domino effect of delays. BART expects to carry most of the load, and here's their plan of attack. They will be adding six additional trains during the morning commute between the Pleasant Hill station and the Montgomery Street Station in San Francisco. Then they will assess ridership to determine what will happen during the evening commute.

There will also be longer trains so you'll see a lot more nine car trains to help deal with the load. Everything else will stay the same. And there will be no scheduled changes.

Onto AC transit. They have 700 runs to and from San Francisco everyday. They say it will be service as usual, just slower. So will catch your bus at the normal stop. No word yet on whether there will be any additional drivers.

The planning doesn't stop there. MUNI is also involved. Since more commuters are expected tomorrow, they're preparing for large crowds at the Market Street station where BART comes in and the Trans Bay Terminal, where AC Transit stops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, we are examining how many more personnel we can bring in. We -- right now, we are pretty much maxed at capacity. But we do have some additional trains and buses that we feel we can press into service

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: There's a couple footnotes to this story that we've been picking up. California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger saying he's issuing an emergency declaration to help speed up the rebuilding of this. As for the driver in this accident, he suffered second degree burns. Somehow managed to get out of the cab and was taken to the hospital. Despite what you saw in those pictures, not much traffic that time of the day. So thank goodness, there were no other injuries. Imagine if it had been during the rush hour.

An update now on a story that we told you about last night. Remember this one? It's a hiker in Cascade Falls? It's right there on the Oregon-Washington line. He falls 50 to 60 feet right into a ravine. And it was extremely steep. Happy to say tonight that he was finally rescued about an hour or so after we first brought you the story last night. National Guard paramedic crew came in, airlifted him to a hospital, tried to maneuver and get finally a helicopter in there. Before they got there, though, some fellow hikers rushed into help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got and there and we scrambled down the hill. And he was kind of unconscious at the time, but he was coming to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He seemed to be in good spirits, smiling and saying thank you for getting me water and ibuprofen, what I need to stay relaxed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Yes, rescuers are saying when that they finally got the hiker, he was complaining of hip, rib, and shoulder pain. Amazing story. The guy falls dozens of feet and he's still found alive. A few broken bones, but they were able to get him out of there. And he's alive.

This week, huge masses of people will take to the streets, we're told, to push for immigration reform in the United States. CNN's Lou Dobbs is going to bring you extensive coverage, as you might expect. But first, the both of us had a heated and insightful debate about the personal side of immigration. I'm going to bring you that. It's good TV. You'll see it in just a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have the courage, you have the fire in your belly to stand up and say what you believe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: A new type of protester is taking on politicians. You've been seeing this in the news, haven't you? These are hecklers. They're just about everywhere. How can you become a professional heckler? There's actually a way of doing that.

And of course, we're going to bring you the big story taking place tonight in Kansas City. We'll stay all over that. Hope to get you some people involved by it. And if we do, we'll bring it to you live right here on CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: I want to let you know that we're talking to witnesses and people involved in that scene in Kansas City. Hope to bring you new information as we gather it from this just horrible scene outside this shopping mall. Three people are dead including the gunman, two others injured. We'll be getting back to that.

In the meantime, we here at CNN are going to be turning the spotlight on the hot topic of immigration reform this week. It starts with Tuesday's national day of protest, we're going to have correspondents staked out all over the country. Demonstrators are planned and we're going to be covering it for you. Now, some demonstrators in Los Angeles already took to the streets today. Children of immigrant parents marched in support of changes to federal immigration laws. They're also asking for the government to make their parents legal citizens. Well who better to talk immigration with than CNN's Lou Dobbs, he's going to be involved in our coverage on Tuesday front and center of course. In keeping with the concept if you disagree with someone, you should tell them and not others behind their back. Lou Dobbs and I sat down for some spirited discussion. Here's round one.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Lou, you have a great show and the reason it's good is you talk truth to power. You don't just go after medium sized guys, you go after the big guys, you don't do fluff, it's serious. But I'll tell you, as a Hispanic living in the United States, U watch your show sometimes and I hope you'll forgive me for saying this.

LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": Sure.

SANCHEZ: I feel a little bit taken aback. I feel sometimes like I'm not valued after I watch one of your newscasts. Do you get that? DOBBS: Really? Why is that Rick?

SANCHEZ: You did a story last night about the Salvation Army for example. There's two people working at the Salvation Army and apparently there's a lawsuit in this story. You explained it quite well as a matter of fact.

DOBBS: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Two people who essentially can be fired because in a non-essential job in the back, folding clothes they wanted to say a couple of words to each other in Spanish. And you seemed horrified by that.

DOBBS: Well that really isn't the exact frame of the facts.

SANCHEZ: Ok, all right come at me with yours.

DOBBS: The fact is that they had been asked to learn to speak English and to speak English in the workplace with everyone in the workplace, not simply amongst themselves in the back and had been given a year to do so. If we have reached a stage in this country, in which English is not the language of commerce, is not the language of education, media and science, what language should it be, Rick?

SANCHEZ: Of course, it should be the language and it's natural for it to be the language and through every immigration group through the history of the United States, it's always been the language. The same things that Lou Dobbs is saying right now, Benjamin Franklin said about the Germans and this was said about the Irish and it was said about the Italians. I mean, it's a pattern in this country. The question is should there not be a little bit of room for tolerance? Are we not judged by how we treat the least amongst us?

DOBBS: How many years -- I don't think you could find a more tolerant nation in the world, could you Rick, could you name one?

SANCHEZ: Well I think all of us could be a little more tolerant.

DOBBS: If we were in Mexico, Rick, how long do you think an only English speaking person would last in the workplace?

SANCHEZ: It would probably be very difficult unless he's an American who happens to go down there with a lot of money.

DOBBS: It wouldn't happen. And the other part is, you said as a Hispanic, you don't feel welcome when you listen to me and my broadcast. Let's address that issue. The fact is that Hispanics are the largest minority group among American citizens in this country. The facts are that this is the most welcoming society on the face of the earth. The facts are whether you are Hispanic or white or black or Asian, you are part of this country. And an integral part of this country with equal rights

SANCHEZ: But there's a process.

DOBBS: But the fact is, when Hispanic --

SANCHEZ: Let me interrupt you for just a minute.

DOBBS: If I may, Rick, when Hispanics define themselves in terms of illegal immigration, which is what I hear you doing, that's troubling.

SANCHEZ: Well I'm not defining myself --

DOBBS: Because you're being very racial.

SANCHEZ: I'm not defining myself according to illegal immigration.

DOBBS: How?

SANCHEZ: I'll tell you how I'm defining myself. I'm defining myself as the son of Paco and Adella, who came to this country as refugees, who came to this country as immigrants and to this day don't speak a lick of English but their son does. And you know why they don't speak a lick of English, because they worked three, four different jobs, they worked until 9, 10:00 at night just to be able to get home and they used to say to us, it's too late for us to make it in this country but we're going to be darned well sure you guys get a good education me and my brothers, and you do make it somehow, and you will speak English.

DOBBS: That's great. That's a wonderful personal story.

SANCHEZ: But that's the pattern Lou and I could give you statistic after statistic that shows.

DOBBS: Well give me just two.

SANCHEZ: Here's one.

DOBBS: Because I can give you statistic after statistic as well.

SANCHEZ: I bet you can.

DOBBS: Well let's start with one statistic.

SANCHEZ: All right.

DOBBS: When you talk about your parents, do you realize that they represent a trend in this country that has been existent since the beginning of our nation, secondly, that this nation brings in lawfully more than 2 million immigrants a year.

SANCHEZ: And that's what makes --

DOBBS: Let me finish.

SANCHEZ: Go ahead.

DOBBS: That is more than the rest of the world combined and yet I hear the effrontery that this is not a welcoming nation. That because I do not like illegal immigration and I can demonstrate factually that it is deleterious to the interest of the country and that if there is a reason in the world for us to exist, it is because we are a nation of laws, for people to put that on a racial context is absurd.

SANCHEZ: Let's do this. Let's talk about the law. Here's what the lawyers say in the case that you were just referring to, right, this is that Salvation Army case, this is the EEOC lawyers that you were really going off on last night, you were quite angry at them. They say the employer can provide a legitimate --

DOBBS: I'm more disgusted with them than angry, but that's all right.

SANCHEZ: You were what?

DOBBS: I'm more disgusted with them than angry.

SANCHEZ: Disgust is a fine word Lou. The employer can provide a legitimate business justification for forcing employees to stop speaking their native language. They go on to say, these are the EEOC lawyers out of New York once again. The Salvation Army presented no such justification, requiring employees to speak English where no business necessity exists constitutes national origin discrimination under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. There you go, there's the law.

(ENDO OF VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: And obviously, we have a chance to rebut that. Lou's going to come back and give you his take on that in just a little bit. After the break, Lou Dobbs' rebuttal to the EEOC, by the way, and the explanation of that Civil Rights Act of 1964. This time we also get into it on the issue of bilingual education and a host of subjects, by the way, many we agree on and some we don't. It's a candid conversation with our Sunday spotlight, Lou Dobbs, we're coming back with this in the NEWSROOM in just a little bit, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the CNN NEWSROOM. CNN's Lou Dobbs makes immigration the cornerstone of his show, a darned good show. We're talking now about the English language, and should immigrants, first generation who just arrived be forced to speak English to get jobs in the United States. Well, each Sunday, we bring you here and interview in our Sunday spotlight with a newsmaker, usually it's somebody who's running for president. This week, it's Lou. He and I agree and we disagree. We pick up with the Salvation Army case.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The Salvation Army says that it is absolutely within its rights and will prevail. So with those two counter veiling issues before us, thank you, EEOC, going after that big bad monstrous entity the Salvation Army, for crying out loud, let's look at some other things that are happening in this country, where teachers are being required in a number of school districts to be fluent in Spanish and not capable of being hired if they are not fluent in Spanish. Workplaces in which supervisors as well as entry level employees must -- are required to be fluent in Spanish. Where is the EEOC on that?

SANCHEZ: You're absolutely 100 percent correct. Bilingual education, I've done countless stories on it, doesn't work doesn't work.

DOBBS: You better believe it doesn't.

SANCHEZ: But when it comes to the market, shouldn't the market determine what language is used in that particular place? And do you really want to --

DOBBS: Well it's exciting to hear you believe -- you have such trust in Mr. Market. I have greater trust in frankly the constitution of the United States and the national values of this country.

SANCHEZ: But do you want to fire two guys working in a kitchen somewhere, who are washing dishes for minimum wage who happens to say to the other one [SPANISH] throw the towel at me please, and the boss comes by and has the right to say, you're fired, you just spoke Spanish. Is that the America you want?

DOBBS: Of course Rick, that would be an absurdity, that's not the issue. That's certainly not the issue in the Salvation Army case?

SANCHEZ: What are they saying? There's two people who fold -- they fold clothes, Lou.

DOBBS: The issues are these --

SANCHEZ: Go ahead, I'm sorry.

DOBBS: The issues I am concerned about, more than the cultural issues by far, is simply following the law and seeing the architecture of good public policy. But the idea that you as a Hispanic American would be offended by anyone who wants to constrain illegal immigration, Rick I can't imagine what would bubble through your soul on that?

SANCHEZ: You're absolutely 100 percent right. I don't want my kids in a school, neither do you or neither does anybody else, where 90 percent of the kids don't speak the language of this country because it's going to put them back. So I agree with you 100 percent.

DOBBS: Good.

SANCHEZ: We need to find a system. We need to scream it. We need to control our borders.

DOBBS: We need to be honest and we need to look at the facts and we need to be honest about the kind of country this is. This country has nothing to apologize for, this country in terms of its diversity and its heterogeneous social makeup. My god, there's no country in the world that comes to a close second. We should be proud of that. We are nation of immigrants. We're fundamentally a nation of laws. And we have got to honor those and we've got to look at who's profiting at the expense of those who are illegal immigrants and those who are profiting on the part of the American taxpayer and the American citizen.

SANCHEZ: I agree with you.

DOBBS: And the answer is exactly the same group of people.

SANCHEZ: And to be fair, I watch you every single night and you're consistent with that message. And you don't just talk about the illegal immigrants, you speak specifically about the people who hire them, you talk about the government that sets up a system where that can happen. And I think that's important and to be fair, you do that every night. But you also have a tendency to use that word "illegal" over and over again as if --

DOBBS: Well I mean illegal.

SANCHEZ: Yeah I know, but it says, Lou it says --

DOBBS: Why would I not use illegal? They're illegal.

SANCHEZ: But it's as if these people -- what's their option, Lou, what is their option? Where is their Statue of Liberty?

DOBBS: Here are the options and they're pretty straightforward. One, if businesses, large corporations are interested in bringing in more cheap labor into this country, they should go to Congress and change public policy and, secondly, those who come here illegally should go through their consulates and apply for citizenship just like 6 million people who are waiting in line to enter this country lawfully.

SANCHEZ: Where's the line --

DOBBS: There's an arrogance in this.

SANCHEZ: But where's the line? Where do they go to do that?

DOBBS: They go to the United States embassy. They go to the United States consuls in their country, just like millions of lawful immigrants do each and every year. There's no mystery in this.

SANCHEZ: Here's what you and I, I think, agree. There needs to be a system whereby immigration is solved. And it's not going to come by depending on the people who are coming over the border, it's going to come from the government and it's going to come from the business enterprise, correct?

DOBBS: No, it's not. I disagree with you. In point of fact, the United States has, this president and this Democratic leadership, particularly the Senate, talk about comprehensive immigration reform. It's a complete scam, they're lying through their teeth and they know it. I'm telling you the president of the United States lies every time he talks about it. Because the fact is we already bring in -- we have how many guest worker programs in this country, hundreds of thousands every year. Who is he kidding? And why is the mainstream media continuing to perpetuate the lies instead of looking at the facts? The reason is, somebody's in somebody's pocket.

SANCHEZ: Lou Dobbs, you're a tough guy. I enjoyed this passionate conversation and debate. Let's do it again.

DOBBS: You have a deal, Rick.

SANCHEZ: My colleague, Lou Dobbs, our Sunday spotlight.

(END OF VIDEOTAPE)

(WEATHER REPORT)

SANCHEZ: Coming up, lately you can find them just about anywhere. These.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN: Oh, shut up!

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: That's President Reagan telling a heckler what he thinks. But hecklers are now the rage. They rattle presidents, entertainers, even other hecklers. So much so it's becoming a full time job. We're going to show you more. This is an interesting report with a lot of heckling.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. Have you seen the trend lately, what's going on with this? You know sometimes you see these people. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or do you want a pink badge of courage?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just want to make sure that you give the pink badge of courage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we are now going to go in her office.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: My goodness, take a look. These are some of the people who've been heckling an awful lot lately. You may think get a job, why don't you? But apparently heckling is now a full time job at least for some. Here's CNN's Carol Costello with the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You killed too many Iraqis already! CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hecklers, the effective ones know how to get attention.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no shame!

COSTELO: Know how to cut to the quick.

REAGAN: Ah, shut-up!

COSTELLO: It's the kind of exchange hecklers crave, what better way to insert yourself into the national debate. That's why Heckling has gotten ruder, cruder and more organized.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think George Washington stood for automatic weapons?

COSTELLO: Watch as liberal political blogger Max Bloomenthal carries out a well planned mission, his target, conservative political blogger Michelle Malcolm. His beef, her book on Japanese interment during World War II.

MAX BLOOMENTHAL: So you made a lot of errors in your book?

MICHELLE MALCOLM: I made a lot of errors and I (inaudible) detest your initiative in trying to smear my work.

BLOOMENTHAL: There she goes. That went really well.

COSTELLO: Bloomenthal believes he won the day, forcing his opinion and Malcolm's distress into the public discourse by posting it on Youtube.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, everyone's a critic.

COSTELLO: This new kind of deliberately cruel heckling is fascinating to producers Michael Addis and Jamie Kennedy. They have made a documentary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who in the [ bleep ] is this guy?

COSTELLO: It's not that they're against heckling but wonder if it's gone too far.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why don't you make like a Kennedy and die young?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They no longer just wanting to yell out stuff, now they really want to take people down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want your head.

COSTELLO: But the mother of all organized hecklers, Codepink, wants to change minds. It's turned anti-war protesting into an organized crusade. With their creative take on demonstrating, they've attracted thousands of members willing to rebel rouse. Ask many politicians. These women are trained to heckle. Codepink's Dana Balicki has heckled Rumsfeld herself

DANA BALICKI, CODEPINK: It's empowering once you realize that you have the courage, you have the fire in your belly to stand up and say what you believe.

COSTELLO: Heckling has left many politicians and entertainers struggling to effectively battle this new kind of enemy. But that kind of reverse heckling is tricky from the political stage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The politician has to have a certain level of dignity. They can't really go after the heckler as badly or as much as a comedian does.

COSTELLO: Just ask George Allen whose reverse heckling ended in his infamous macaca moment. Allen lost his senate bid. The lesson, leave the heckling to the professionals. Carol Costello, CNN, New York.

(END OF VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Interesting tape isn't it. By the way, we have some news for you now, if you live in the Oakland San Francisco area, we just received a call from officials there, they want us to tell you this, we showed you this video earlier of this bridge collapse, we're now being told tonight that the local mass transit system, that's BART there obviously, is offering free train and bus rides in the morning. In other words, use mass transit, you don't have to pay. Authorities have been working all day to try and figure out strategies to avoid delays. So there you have it, it's free tomorrow, use it, say officials. I'm Rick Sanchez, thanks for being with us. CNN, the most trusted name in news.

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