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New Jersey Governor Returns Home; President Bush Backs World Bank President; Former Escort Service Owner Appears in D.C. Federal Court; Threat Closes College Campuses; Debating Immigration

Aired April 30, 2007 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon, live at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Susan Roesgen, filling in for Kyra Phillips.

Not taking any chances, a Pennsylvania college shuts down after the faculty gets threatening e-mails. We're live with the latest.

LEMON: Plus, New Jersey's governor chokes up, admitting he didn't buckle up before his life-threatening car crash. We have more, as Jon Corzine heads home from the hospital. That's straight ahead right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God, dude, the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) freeway collapsed. What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Did the cars all crash?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROESGEN: That's the stunned reaction from a CNN I-Reporter just moments after a gasoline tanker crashed near the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge early yesterday. The fire collapsed a critical ramp, beginning what's likely to be a months-long traffic nightmare.

CNN's Chris Lawrence is on the scene.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You couldn't find a worse place for this highway to have crashed, right where three major highways converge. And feed it in the Bay, Bridge, which connects Oakland with the city of San Francisco. More than a quarter-million commuters drive this route every day. And Monday is shaping up to be a traffic nightmare.

Crews have already been out here on the scene, removing some of the debris. But this is a problem that could extend well into October. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has already declared a state of emergency. And the state of California is picking up the tab to provide free public transportation throughout the entire Bay Area on Monday.

This is what it looked like when that tanker lost control and crashed, and 8,000 gallons of gasoline just exploded. Flames shot up 200 feet in the air. And the air heated up to about 3,000 degrees. It literally melted the steel beams that were supporting the overpass above it.

Thankfully, no one was killed in this collapse. But the commuters here in the Bay Area will be dealing with these problems probably through the end of the summer.

Chris Lawrence, CNN, Oakland, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: And more great video from another CNN I-Reporter, this one from Richmond, Texas.

Check it out. A train slams right into the side of an 18-wheeler stuck right there on the tracks. That was caught from CNN I-Reporter Laura Kennedy . She and her husband were waiting there for that train to pass in this traffic jam. They say they saw the driver of that truck get out just before the train hit and then get back in.

He was not seriously injured. No one died, amazingly.

ROESGEN: Well, 18 days after the accident that almost killed him, New Jersey's governor has left the hospital to go home.

Here he is, Jon Corzine. He and an aide and a state trooper driving his SUV were all hurt in a high-speed crash on April 12. But the governor, who wasn't wearing a seat belt, was hurt the worst, 11 broken ribs, a broken leg. He spent days on a ventilator in critical condition.

And he was emotional as he spoke to the reporters just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JON CORZINE (D), NEW JERSEY: As I said last week, I'm a blessed human being. I could not be more grateful for the support I have had from all the people of the state, my family, the medical people, the people that rescued me.

I don't think people understand how much people care about others and reach out and support them. And I just want to make sure that I say thank you. I also understand that I set a very poor example for a lot of young people, a lot of people in general. And I certainly hope the state will forgive me. And I will work very hard to try to set the right kind of example to make a difference in people's lives as we go forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROESGEN: Well, the governor will not be going right back to work, because he still needs extensive physical therapy.

And we're learning more about yesterday's fatal mall shooting in Kansas City. The police say the gunman shot and wounded an officer at a gas station before he went to the mall. When he got to the mall, he pulled into a parking space and just started firing at the cars that were parked there on either side of him, killing two people there.

Then, he ran toward the mall to go in it, but the officers went after him and shot him to death before he could get inside. The police say they also suspect that he killed an elderly woman a few miles away from the mall. They say that her missing car matches the gunman's.

LEMON: Explosive claims from George Tenet comes years after the fact. The former CIA chief says he warned Condoleezza Rice in the months before 9/11 that al Qaeda was planning imminent and spectacular attacks. But he suggests that Rice, then national security adviser, did not take him seriously.

Tenet's been doing a series of interviews to promote his new book, "At the Center of the Storm," in which he defends the CIA from post-9/11 criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "60 MINUTES")

GEORGE TENET, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: All these commissions, and all these reports never got underneath the feeling of my people. You know, to see us written about as if we're idiots. Or if we didn't understand this threat, as if we didn't understand what happened on that day, to impugn our integrity, our operational savvy, you know, the American people need to know that's just not so.

We're the ones that stand up and tell you the truth about when we're wrong. It's a great thing about this government. The only people that ever stand up and tell the truth are who? Intelligence officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told CNN's "LATE EDITION": "There were times -- there were some things, rather, that went right and some things that went wrong. And you know what? We will have a chance to look at that in history. And I will have a chance to reflect on that when I have a chance to write my book."

So, why did George Tenet speak up or just pack up -- why didn't he speak up or just pack up sooner? Well, that's what former colleagues are asking, in light of Tenet's claims that top Bush administration officials rushed into war with Iraq.

In an open letter, six former CIA officials called their former boss' book an admission of failed leadership. Another one tells CNN, Tenet should have stepped down, instead of taking part in the build-up to the war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL SCHEUER, FORMER CHIEF OF CIA BIN LADEN UNIT: Mr. Tenet had the intelligence, and I think he did, because his officers were telling him that the war in Iraq was going to turn into the disaster that it did. His responsibility was, A, to tell the president, but, B, if no one listened, to resign and go to the public, because this was the first American war that depended solely on the intelligence information to justify it.

And, if he had that information, and it wasn't being listened to, it would seem to me his duty was to resign and tell the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And, tonight, at 9:00 eastern, George Tenet kicks off Larry King's 50th anniversary week. The former CIA chief joins Larry for his first live prime-time interview about his explosive new book. And he will take your calls and also your e-mails.

That's tonight at 9:00, only here on CNN.

ROESGEN: Hoping to save his job, if not his reputation, World Bank chief Paul Wolfowitz went before a special bank panel today in Washington. His job is in jeopardy over accusations of ethics lapses. But he insists that he will not resign, in spite of calls for that from his colleagues and from the European parliament, among others.

This hearing allowed Wolfowitz to explain his role in his girlfriend's promotion and pay raise. She was there with him. And she is also expected to testify.

Meanwhile, at the White House today, President Bush reiterated that Paul Wolfowitz still has his full support.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The answer is no. We didn't have a discussion. My position is, is that he ought to stay. He ought to be given a fair hearing. And I appreciate the fact that he has advanced -- he's helped the World Bank recognize that the eradication of world poverty is an important priority for the bank.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROESGEN: Well, the special panel that is investigating all of this will report to the World Bank board, and then the board will decide how to proceed.

LEMON: And, during his many years in Washington, Paul Wolfowitz has been no stranger to controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON (voice-over): To his critics and supporters, Paul Wolfowitz is the archetypical neo-conservative, the hawk's hawk, a career Washington insider who is known to scorn compromise.

If Wolfowitz has one indelible mark, it's the Iraq war. As President Bush's deputy secretary of defense, Wolfowitz was an architect of the 2003 invasion. He also played a key role in the Persian Gulf War as undersecretary of defense for policy. He worked closely with his boss, then Defense Secretary Dick Cheney, in pushing an aggressive response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

Wolfowitz's political career took off during the Reagan administration -- one high-profile job, U.S. ambassador to Indonesia in the mid to late '80s. Known as much for his conservative intellectual prowess as for his hawkish positions, Wolfowitz has long promoted the spread of American-style democracy, even if it involves the U.S. military.

The seed for Wolfowitz 's world view were sown at the University of Chicago, where he earned a master's degree and a doctorate in political science and economics.

One of his professors was political philosopher Leo Strauss, the man many regarded as the father of neo-conservative movement.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROESGEN: And now to the NEWSROOM and T.J. Holmes, who is following that story of the five campuses from one Pennsylvania college that have been shut down because of e-mail threats -- T.J.

T.J. HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Susan, and police are taking this very seriously, kill you said, five campuses.

This is the Delaware County Community College in Pennsylvania. This is not too far outside of Philadelphia. Looking at video of one of the campuses here, but all of them are shut down, have been shut down, closed for the past four days, after several faculty members received threatening e-mails about some sort of violence that could happen on the campus.

Today or tomorrow is what the e-mail said. It did mention a couple of campuses specifically. But it -- it was a general enough threat, according to police, that they decided to take this caution and shut down all campuses.

Also, students have been -- have been getting notice of what was happening through e-mail, also being updated on the college's Web site. But police call this a disturbed person who sent these e-mails. They also, in these e-mails, made reference to the Virginia Tech massacre we just saw a couple of weeks ago.

And, so, police certainly taking this very seriously, school officials also saying that they will not even consider making a decision about when to reopen the campus until police give them an all-clear and assure them that things are safe. So, they are -- are working this right now. The e-mails were sent from a particular e- mail account. So, they are trying to track that down, possibly -- and possibly track down this person who has certainly sent a scare through this area and through all these campuses.

But we're keeping an eye on it here -- Susan.

ROESGEN: OK, T.J., thanks for the update.

HOLMES: All right.

LEMON: Birds do it. Bees do it. Politicians do it. But they often don't want to get caught. Ahead in the NEWSROOM: below-the- beltway buzz on the alleged D.C. madam from Washington, an insider there.

ROESGEN: But, first, it was the Big Apple, now Boston. We will go on the rat patrol coming up in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROESGEN: Well, it's about quarter past the hour here. And here are three of the stories we're working on in the CNN NEWSROOM.

So far, so good. The morning rush was mostly normal in California's Bay Area, despite the big overpass collapse near the Bay Bridge, that links Oakland and San Francisco. However, the highway folks are saying that the afternoon drive could be worse than this morning's. Many commuters are using mass transit, which today offers free rides.

More names to be named? Alleged Washington, D.C., madam Deborah Palfrey says she's going to reveal more of her clients as the federal racketeering case moves forward. But she also says she feels sorry for Randall Tobias, a top State Department official who resigned after admitting that he had used Palfrey's escort service.

And President Bush is standing behind embattled World Bank president Paul Wolfowitz. Wolfowitz told a special bank panel today that he's been the target of a smear campaign. The panel is investigating his role in securing a promotion and raise for his girlfriend.

LEMON: And now to the alleged D.C. madam, Deborah Jeane Palfrey. She isn't going quietly, and she isn't going alone.

Today, Palfrey was back in federal court, where she faces felony charges for allegedly running a prostitution ring in the nation's capital. Palfrey had hundreds, maybe thousands, of clients -- among the first to be revealed, Deputy Secretary of State Randall Tobias. Tobias quickly resigned, even though he insists he only received massages, a point Palfrey clearly welcomes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBORAH JEANE PALFREY, FORMER ESCORT SERVICE OWNER: Friday's admission by Mr. Tobias that he engaged in legal activity while a customer of my firm supports my position all along that I operated a sexual, albeit legal, business, for 13 years, from 1993 to 2006.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, needless to say, Palfrey has a lot of Washingtonians squirming. Public servants, academics, and attorneys are believed to have been among Palfrey's more prominent clients and her service providers as well. It's pretty juicy stuff.

And joining us now from Washington is Garrett Graff, editor at large of "The Washingtonian" magazine.

It is clearly the talk of the town there. Are we going to see more names come out, especially prominent people? Are we expecting that?

GARRETT GRAFF, EDITOR AT LARGE, "THE WASHINGTONIAN": Oh, this is such a juicy story here in Washington. Everyone is talking about it.

And I'm sure that we are going to see a lot more names about -- coming out -- coming out this week, sort of as this investigation goes on. And, then, also, you know, I was listening to some cops that I overheard this morning talking about this case. And they were saying, there's plenty more of this where this came from.

LEMON: Plenty more of this where this came from. Do you know what the plenty more is that they are talking about?

(CROSSTALK)

GRAFF: Well, you know, Washington, like any large city, sex is a big business. "Washingtonian" did a piece, my magazine, about a year- and-a-half ago looking, at X-rated Washington.

And we found over 130 escort services that -- that advertise their services in the yellow pages. We found more than eight massage parlors that operate within 10 blocks of the White House. So, this is a big business here.

And it's just the unfortunate situation for Judith (sic) Palfrey's clients that she was the one who got caught.

LEMON: And, you know, what folks are saying -- and I'm just going to be blunt here -- power is a big aphrodisiac. Why would someone in power have to go to a massage parlor there in Washington? Is that necessary?

GRAFF: Well, there are sort of different reasons for every single person.

I mean, we saw this with Dick Morris. He was caught with some untoward company in 1996 just before the election. And we saw Democratic strategist Bob Beckel, who -- in 2002, who faced blackmail after using an escort service.

So, this -- this is sort of a story that pops up time and again here in Washington.

LEMON: There's also -- Ms. Palfrey is saying that she cannot afford to pay for her own attorneys. And she's asking that a public defender represent her, one, she says, because the government, you know, confiscated her profits, or what have you.

How profitable of a massage agency are we talking about here, Garrett?

GRAFF: Well, I mean, we know it's in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's very hard to track exactly how much someone in an organization like this is making. It could very easily run into the millions of dollars.

Certainly, over 13 years, I think that there were 15,000 -- 12,000 to 15,000 phone numbers that were part of her phone records that were turned over to the media. So, I mean, this was a very big business. And, as I said, this is just one of more than 100 of these companies running here in Washington.

LEMON: Yes.

And, now, Mr. Tobias is saying that he went there, nothing illegal. It was a massage, and that's why he went to her.

And many times, though, in situations like this, Garrett, people will sort of look the other way. This is something that we just don't talk about. Why no looking the other way in this one?

GRAFF: Well, I think the sad truth is that it's just because this is the one that got caught. And here we have a situation where her phone records -- she was very public that she had sort of big names listed in her records and big names among her clientele.

And she's made a big show of turning the numbers over to the media. And I think that, all week here, as this investigation continues, and as this client list becomes a little bit more public each day, we're going to see much more embarrassment sort of across Washington, and maybe not just from among the clients. We might see that some of the women who were involved in this escort service were sort of notable Washingtonians of one kind or another.

LEMON: Yes. We shall see, as you said.

Garrett Graff is the editor at large of "Washingtonian" magazine.

Thanks for joining us today in the CNN NEWSROOM.

GRAFF: Thanks for having me.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

ROESGEN: And we have some breaking news. We may have the video in already. It's what we believe to be a school bus crash in Middletown, Connecticut. Again, now, you are looking at a live picture. We don't have much information at this point.

As you can see, it looks like a pretty serious crash there, some injuries. We will bring you all the information on this accident as we get it.

In the meantime, one crash was bad enough, but what followed was worse. A young Michigan woman was trapped and injured inside her partially submerged car -- how she was rescued coming in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: There should probably be a warning for this next video.

Remember that video of rats making themselves at home at a fast- food place in New York City? Well, if you saw it, I know you haven't forgotten it.

Well, get ready to shudder again. Here it is. This time, the problem is in Boston. A report airing on "Inside Edition" shows rats and mice running around inside and outside three popular restaurants.

Boston's principal health inspector says he visited those places last week, after seeing this unbelievable video. He says all the restaurants are clean now. They are also working with pest control companies to help them stay that way.

ROESGEN: Well, Delta Air Lines is flying out of bankruptcy today. But the move comes with a price tag.

Felicia Taylor is at the New York Stock Exchange to tell us what kind of changes the flyers will see -- Felicia.

FELICIA TAYLOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Susan.

Well, not only is Delta closing the books on its Chapter 11 status; the carrier landed back on its feet a year ahead of schedule. But, like you said, it comes with a hefty price tag. Twenty percent of Delta's 60,000 employees lost their jobs. And the pilots made wage concessions.

Delta also turned over its under-funded pilots' pension funds to the federal government. All told, the carrier trimmed $3 billion in annual costs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALD GRINSTEIN, CEO, DELTA AIR LINES: It's true that we had cost cuts and savings of $2 billion. But the third billion dollars, which was essential to the success of the company, was taking -- putting the emphasis on international travel and reducing our reliance on domestic travel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAYLOR: Delta's growth prospects may depend on international flights. But, over the 19 months, the airline was forced to cut the number of airplanes that it flies -- Susan.

ROESGEN: So, what's new for flyers? Any more peanuts, free drinks?

(LAUGHTER)

TAYLOR: I flew Delta, actually, yesterday. So, the answer to that one is no.

(LAUGHTER)

TAYLOR: But it does have a new look and logo. Employees will get new uniforms. And Delta also has a redesigned lobby area at its Atlanta airport hub.

But, in general, flyers are not going to notice too much of a difference. Delta stock will also begin trading once again here at the NYSE on Thursday under its old ticker symbol DAL.

Now, high fuel costs were partly to blame for's Delta bankruptcy, but pain at the pump is a familiar thing to many drivers. And gasoline prices may get even pricier. Gas futures jumped 3 percent today to a nine-month high.

As for stocks, within the past hour, the Dow industrials surrendered some of their gains, and the market has turned mostly lower. The Dow right now is off 12 points. The Nasdaq composite is off more -- much more significantly, down 23 points, with the S&P off 6.33.

And, just about 30 minutes, we will see if the Dow can nail down another record closing high. Looking less and less likely at the moment, but you never know -- Don and Susan, back to you.

ROESGEN: Yes, you never know, two steps forward, one step back.

TAYLOR: Yes.

ROESGEN: As long as it's generally ahead, we like it.

(LAUGHTER)

TAYLOR: Exactly right.

ROESGEN: All right, thank you, Felicia.

LEMON: All right, imagine this: a school bus on its roof with children inside. You don't have to imagine it. It happened this afternoon in Middletown, Connecticut. And we are going to take you there for an update in just a little bit, right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon, live at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.

ROESGEN: And I'm Susan Roesgen, filling in for Kyra Phillips.

Talk about a steel cage match-up. It is anchor versus anchor on the immigration debate. Lou Dobbs and Rick Sanchez square off, and you'll see it right here in the CNN NEWSROOM. LEMON: But first, we go to Pennsylvania, where threatening e- mails have shut down five college campuses.

For the very latest, let's go to senior correspondent Allan Chernoff in Media, Pennsylvania.

What's the latest, Allan?

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SR. CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, those are the five campuses of Delaware County Community College. And as you can see to my side here, the campus is entirely closed. In fact, it's been shut down since Thursday. And the president of the college has just announced that he will keep the college closed tomorrow as well.

All of this since some faculty members received an e-mail, a threatening e-mail that is believed to have come from a student saying that the student was stressed out, was certainly very angry, and was going to go get some guns from a friend and then bring those guns to two of the campuses. So, as a precaution, very tight security. And as I said, the campus is entirely shut down.

The police in this area have already interviewed 160 faculty members. And we have now the president of the college with us right now, Jerry Parker.

And President Parker, can you tell us first of all, what are the findings of the police investigation thus far?

JERRY PARKER, COLLEGE PRESIDENT: Well, we were fully briefed this morning by local authorities which include the FBI, the county D.A.'s office in both counties, and we were told really that the investigation continues.

CHERNOFF: Any suspects apprehended thus far?

PARKER: No.

CHERNOFF: None at all?

PARKER: Right now they are pursuing the investigation.

CHERNOFF: OK. Even though -- even though this all came from an e-mail, and it's pretty easy to trace e-mails these days.

PARKER: Well, apparently not. That's all I can say. Apparently, it's not as easy as you and I might think. And it's very difficult. There are ways apparently of covering your tracks. And so the investigation continues.

CHERNOFF: The college is taking all of this extremely seriously.

PARKER: Absolutely. And the authorities are taking it extremely. They are -- as I would say, they're all over this and pursuing it in every possible way you can imagine.

CHERNOFF: The threat had been for violence either today or tomorrow. Last question, are you planning to reopen later in the week?

PARKER: Our goal is to reopen if we possibly can, but again, we're taking our cues from the local authorities.

CHERNOFF: Mr. President, thank you very much.

And, of course, the investigation, as the president said, is continuing. But also, we should point out that this college has very close ties to the local police, simply because many of them actually studied here.

There is a police academy at Delaware County Community College. And so certainly they are very much in close contact with the local authorities, hoping that all of this will be wrapped up pretty soon.

Don, back to you.

LEMON: CNN's Allan Chernoff in Media, Pennsylvania.

Thank you.

ROESGEN: And we are starting to get more information on that school bus crash in Connecticut.

T.J. Holmes is here now with an update -- T.J.

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, scary pictures when we see these. We'll show you this video here, but it shows a school bus on its roof, completely turned over.

There you see it, the top right of the screen. A smaller school bus that -- it's a blue school bus, it appears, not the normal yellow school bus as we see a lot of times. But you see the area down here, you see the buses -- excuse me, the ambulances.

You see kind of a triage area. A lot of the victims who were down here in the area where you see some of the firefighters and emergency officials -- there you go, that's an earlier picture there -- kind of triaged some of these students. And we saw several of them having to be taken on those stretchers, into ambulances.

According to the local affiliates -- here in Connecticut is where this is happening, in Middletown, Connecticut. Don't know exactly what happened with this school bus, what -- if another car was involved in the accident, exactly how it happened. But the local affiliate describing the injuries as minor. Also saying that -- a local affiliate -- that as many as 16 people had been injured in this accident on that school bus.

Back to the live picture here. You see another person being taken on stretcher. But the injuries being described as minor, but up to 15 injuries in this thing, Susan.

So it's always scary any time you hear "school bus" and "accident" in the same sentence. Maybe these injuries aren't -- aren't too bad. But a scary sight certainly for folks -- certainly for parents all over the country who can relate to a story like this.

ROESGEN: Yes. It is hard to believe only minor injuries there.

HOLMES: Yes.

ROESGEN: Thanks, T.J.

Well, she barely survived a nightmare. Twenty-one-year-old Jennifer Bova is in critical condition now after spending two days trapped inside her partially submerged SUV.

She crashed into a pond near Detroit last week, and her family says she vanished after she called them Wednesday night to say she was headed to her grandmother's house. The police didn't find her until Friday after a truck driver spotted the SUV in that pond. Her parents are thanking him now for his help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BOVA, JENNIFER BOVA'S FATHER: We're very grateful that he spotted her...

BRENDA BOVA, JENNIFER BOVA'S MOTHER: And that he reported it.

J. BOVA: ... and that he reported it.

B. BOVA: Instead of just driving by and not saying anything.

J. BOVA: And also to the state troopers and whoever else that helped get her here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROESGEN: Well, the police say Jennifer Bova had bleeding in the brain and multiple fractures to her pelvis, arm and face.

LEMON: Well, tomorrow, with huge rallies scheduled across the country and with legislative reform at a standstill, CNN will take a hard look at immigration. It is a hot-button issue even here at CNN.

Over the weekend, two of our anchors who feel passionate about the issue squared off. And not surprisingly, Lou Dobbs and Rick Sanchez's discussion eventually got a bit loud.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Lou, you have a great show. And the reason it's good is you talk truth to power. You don't just go after medium-sized guys, you go after the big guys. You don't do fluff, it's serious.

But I'll tell you, as a Hispanic living in the United States, I watch your show sometimes -- and I hope you'll forgive me for saying this.

LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": Sure. SANCHEZ: I feel a little bit taken aback. I feel sometimes like I'm not valued after I watch one of your newscasts.

Do you get that?

DOBBS: Really? Why is that Rick?

SANCHEZ: You did a story last night about the Salvation Army, for example.

DOBBS: Right.

SANCHEZ: And there's two people working at the Salvation Army, and apparently there's a lawsuit in this story.

DOBBS: Right.

SANCHEZ: You explained it quite well, as a matter of fact.

DOBBS: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Two people who essentially can be fired because in a nonessential job in the back folding clothes, they wanted to say a couple of words to each other in Spanish.

DOBBS: right.

SANCHEZ: And you seemed horrified by that.

DOBBS: Well that really isn't the exact frame of the facts.

SANCHEZ: OK. All right. Come at me with yours.

DOBBS: The fact is that they had been asked to learn to speak English and to speak English in the workplace with everyone in the workplace, not simply amongst themselves in the back, and had been given a year to do so. And if we have reached a stage in this country in which English is not the language of commerce, is not the language of education, media and science, what language should it be, Rick?

SANCHEZ: Of course it should be the language.

DOBBS: Right.

SANCHEZ: And it's natural for it to be the language.

DOBBS: Right.

SANCHEZ: And through every immigration group through the history of the United States, it's always been the language. The same things that Lou Dobbs is saying right now, Benjamin Franklin said about the Germans. And it was said about the Irish, and it was said about the Italians. I mean, it's a pattern in this country.

The question is should there not be a little bit of room for tolerance? Are we not judged by how we treat -- how we treat the least amongst us?

DOBBS: How many years -- I don't think you could find a more tolerant nation in the world, could you Rick? Could you name one?

SANCHEZ: Well, I think all of us could be a little more tolerant.

DOBBS: If we were in Mexico, Rick...

SANCHEZ: Right?

DOBBS: ... how long do you think an only-English-speaking person would last in the workplace?

SANCHEZ: It would probably be very difficult unless he's an American who happens to go down there with a lot of money.

DOBBS: It wouldn't happen. And the other part is -- and you said as a Hispanic, you don't feel welcome when you listen to me and my broadcast.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

DOBBS: Let's address that issue. The fact is that Hispanics are the largest minority group among American citizens in this country. The facts are that this is the most welcoming society on the face of the earth. The facts are whether you are Hispanic or white or black or Asian, you are part of this country, and an integral part of this country with equal rights

SANCHEZ: But there's a process.

DOBBS: But the fact is, when Hispanic...

SANCHEZ: Let me interrupt you for just a minute.

DOBBS: If I may, Rick, when Hispanics define themselves in terms of illegal immigration, which is what I hear you doing, that's troubling.

SANCHEZ: Well I'm not defining myself...

DOBBS: Because you're being very racial.

SANCHEZ: I'm not defining myself according to illegal immigration.

DOBBS: How?

SANCHEZ: I'll tell you how I'm defining myself. I'm defining myself as the son of Paco (ph) and Adella (ph), who came to this country as refugees, who came to this country as immigrants, and to this day don't speak a lick of English. But their son does.

And you know why they don't speak a lick of English? Because they worked three, four different jobs. They worked until 9:00, 10:00 at night just to be able to get home, and they used to say to us, it's too late for us to make it in this country but we're going to be darned well sure that you guys get a good education, me and my brothers, and you do make it somehow, and you will speak English.

DOBBS: That's great. That's a wonderful personal story.

SANCHEZ: But that's the pattern, Lou. And I could give you statistic after statistic that shows -- here's one.

DOBBS: Well give me just two.

SANCHEZ: All right, here.

DOBBS: Because I can give you statistic after statistic as well.

SANCHEZ: I bet you can.

DOBBS: Well let's start with one statistic.

SANCHEZ: All right.

DOBBS: When you talk about your parents, do you realize that they represent a trend in this country that has been existent since the beginning of our nation.

SANCHEZ: Right?

DOBBS: Secondly, that this nation brings in lawfully more than two million immigrants a year.

SANCHEZ: And that's what makes...

DOBBS: That is -- let me finish.

SANCHEZ: Go ahead.

DOBBS: That is more than the rest of the world combined. And yet, I hear the effrontery that this is not a welcoming nation? That because I do not like illegal immigration and I can demonstrate factually that it is deleterious to the interest of the country, and that if there is a reason in the world for us to exist it is because we are a nation of laws -- for people to put that on a racial context is absurd.

SANCHEZ: Well, let's do this. Let's talk about the law.

DOBBS: Sure.

SANCHEZ: Here's what the lawyers say in the case that you were just referring to, right? This is that Salvation Army case.

DOBBS: Right.

SANCHEZ: This is the EEOC lawyers that you were really going off on last night, you were quite angry at them. They say, "The employer can provide a legitimate..." DOBBS: I'm more disgusted with them than angry, but that's all right.

SANCHEZ: You were what?

DOBBS: I'm more disgusted with them than angry.

SANCHEZ: Disgust is a fine word, Lou. "The employer can provide a legitimate business justification for forcing employees to stop speaking their native language."

They go on to say -- these are the EEOC lawyers out of New York, once again -- "The Salvation Army presented no such justification. Requiring employees to speak English where no business necessity exists constitutes national origin discrimination under the Civil Rights Act of 1964."

There you go. There's the law.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: And tomorrow there are going to be several rallies, huge rallies scheduled across the country. CNN will be on top of that. And part two of this very spirited discussion is coming up next in the CNN NEWSROOM.

ROESGEN: Boy, talk about clash of the titans.

Well, severe weather in Texas right now. We get an update from Rob Marciano when we come back.

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(WEATHER REPORT)

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LEMON: Back now to our in-house immigration debate between CNN's Lou Dobbs and Rick Sanchez. We pick up where we left off, with the guys talking about a controversial court case.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The Salvation Army says that it is absolutely within its rights and will prevail. So with those two countervailing issues before us -- thank you, EEOC, going after that big, bad monstrous entity, the Salvation Army, for crying out loud -- let's look at some other things that are happening in this country, where teachers are being required in a number of school districts to be fluent in Spanish and not capable of being hired if they are not fluent in Spanish. Workplaces in which supervisors, as well as entry level employees must -- are being required to be fluent in Spanish.

Where is the EEOC on that, partner?

SANCHEZ: You're absolutely 100 percent correct. Bilingual education, I've done countless stories on it, it doesn't work. It doesn't work.

DOBBS: You better believe it doesn't.

SANCHEZ: But when it comes to the market, shouldn't the market determine what language is used in that particular place? And do you really want to...

DOBBS: Well, it's exciting to hear you believe -- you have such trust in Mr. Market. I have greater trust in, frankly, the Constitution of the United States and the national values of this country.

SANCHEZ: But do you want to fire two guys working in a kitchen somewhere, who are washing dishes for minimum wage who happens to say to the other one, (SPEAKING IN SPANISH), "Throw the towel at me, please," and the boss comes by and has the right to say, "You're fired, you just spoke Spanish'?

Is that the America you want?

DOBBS: Of course, Rick, that would be an absurdity. That's not the issue. That's certainly not the issue in the Salvation Army case.

SANCHEZ: Well, then what are they saying? There's two people who fold -- they fold clothes, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's focus on the issues. The issues are these...

SANCHEZ: Go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

DOBBS: The issues I am concerned about, more than the cultural issues, by far, is simply following the law and seeing the architecture of good public policy. But the idea that you as a Hispanic-American would be offended by anyone who wants to constrain illegal immigration, Rick, I can't imagine what would go through -- what would bubble through your soul on that.

SANCHEZ: You're absolutely 100 percent right. I don't want my kids in a school, neither do you or neither does anybody else, where, you know, 90 percent of the kids don't speak the language of this country, because it's going to -- it's going to put them back. So I agree with you 100 percent.

DOBBS: Good.

SANCHEZ: We need to find a system. We need to screen it. We need to control our borders.

DOBBS: We need to be honest, and we need to look at the facts, and we need to be honest about the kind of country this is. This country has nothing to apologize for. This country, in terms of its diversity and its heterogeneous social makeup, my god, we -- there's no country in the world that comes to a close second.

We should be proud of that. We are nation of immigrants. We're fundamentally a nation of laws. SANCHEZ: But here's where -- here's where...

DOBBS: And we have got to honor those, and we've got to look at who's profiting at the expense of those who are illegal immigrants and those who are profiting on the part of the American taxpayer and the American citizen.

SANCHEZ: I agree with you.

DOBBS: And the answer is exactly the same group of people.

SANCHEZ: And to be fair, I watch you every single night, and you're consistent with that message. And you don't just talk about the illegal immigrants, you speak specifically about the people who hire them.

DOBBS: Right.

SANCHEZ: You talk about the government that sets up a system where that can happen. And I think that's important. And to be fair, you do that every night. But you also have a tendency to use that word "illegal" over and over again as if...

DOBBS: Well, I mean illegal.

SANCHEZ: Well -- yes, I know, but it says -- Lou, it says...

DOBBS: Why would I not use "illegal"? They're illegal.

SANCHEZ: But it's as if these people -- what's their option, Lou? What is their option? Where is their Statue of Liberty?

DOBBS: Here are the options. Here are the options, and they're pretty straightforward.

One, if businesses, large corporations are interested in bringing in more cheap labor into this country, they should go to Congress and change public policy. And secondly, those who come here illegally should go through their consulates and apply for citizenship just like six million people who are waiting in line to enter this country lawfully..

SANCHEZ: Where's the line?

DOBBS: There's an arrogance in this.

SANCHEZ: But where's the line? Where do they go to do that?

DOBBS: They go to the United States Embassy. They go to the United States consuls in their country, just like millions of lawful immigrants do each and every year. There's no mystery in this.

SANCHEZ: Here's where you and I, I think, agree. There needs to be a system whereby immigration is solved. And it's not going to come by depending on the people who are coming over the border, it's going to come from the government and it's going to come from the business enterprise, correct?

DOBBS: No, it's not. I disagree with you.

In point of fact, the United States has -- you know, this president and this Democratic leadership, particularly in the Senate, talk about comprehensive immigration reform. It's a complete scam. They're lying through their teeth, and they know it.

I'm telling you the president of the United States lies every time he talks about it. Because the fact is, we ought to bring -- we already bring in -- we have how many guest worker programs in this country? Hundreds of thousands every year.

Who is he kidding? And why is the mainstream media continuing to perpetuate the lies instead of looking at the facts? And the reason is, somebody's in somebody's pocket.

SANCHEZ: Lou Dobbs, you're a tough guy. I enjoyed this passionate conversation and debate. Let's do it again.

DOBBS: You've got a deal, Rick.

SANCHEZ: My colleague, Lou Dobbs, our Sunday spotlight.

(END OF VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Well, tomorrow CNN will cover immigration from coast to coast. Our correspondents will be in several cities where rallies are planned. "Immigration Nation" it's called throughout the day, only on CNN.

And then on Wednesday night, a prime time special. Lou Dobbs will host a live town hall from Hazleton, Pennsylvania, where the mayor has drawn the line against illegal immigration. One town's fight against broken borders, live Wednesday night at 8:00 Eastern, only on CNN.

ROESGEN: The closing bell live from Wall Street, straight ahead.

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ROESGEN: The closing bell is about to ring on Wall Street.

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