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Lou Dobbs Tonight
What is 'Success' in Iraq?; Bush 'Confident' Compromise Possible on War Spending Bill; Shadow Government? Illegal Aliens Enjoy Privileges in Some U.S. Cities; House Majority Leader: Congress will Work Towards Compromise on War Funding; Accused Spy Denies Sending U.S. Secrets to China; Millions of Jobs Being Lost to China; Bipartisan Sponsors Defend Amnesty Bill
Aired May 02, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, President Bush redefining the meaning of success in Iraq as the White House and Democratic leadership struggle to end their showdown over war funding. Will the Democrats drop their withdrawal timetable? What will the White House offer?
House Majority Leader Congressman Steny Hoyer is among our guests here tonight.
And the Iraqi government appears to be following a secret and sectarian agenda that could jeopardize the entire U.S. mission in Iraq.
We'll have that special report tonight from Baghdad.
And our national food supply is at risk from dangerous imports. The federal government is cutting the budget and staff for food inspections, and incredibly the man in charge of the FDA says our food safety system isn't broken.
We'll have all of that, all the day's news, and much more straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Wednesday, May 2nd.
Live from Hazleton, Pennsylvania, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
From Penn State Hazleton campus in Hazleton, Pennsylvania, we're here for what will be a very special town hall meeting coming up at 8:00 p.m. Eastern here on CNN.
But first tonight, President Bush today presented a new definition of success in Iraq. President Bush said the success in the war does not necessarily mean the end of all violence in Iraq.
The president's remarks came amid rising doubts about the effectiveness and the loyalty of the Iraqi government. There are new indications that the al-Maliki government is putting sectarian interests ahead of the Iraqi national interest.
Ed Henry reports tonight from the White House on the president's new definition of success.
Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill on the next moves and the political showdown over the conduct of the war.
And Arwa Damon reports from Baghdad on rising concerns the Iraqi government is secretly following a radical Islamist Shia agenda.
We turn first to Ed Henry at the White House -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, all sides trying to find a deal it work through this war funding bill the president vetoed yesterday. There was -- they started those talks at the White House this afternoon, but no breakthrough. Instead, perhaps what was more noteworthy about today is the fact that the president seemed to be trying to recalibrate how he defines success in Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice over): Speaking in Washington before a friendly audience, the president tried to lower the bar for victory in Iraq.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The definition of success, as I described, is, you know, sectarian violence down. Success is not no violence. There are parts of our own country that, you know, have got, you know, a certain level of violence to it.
HENRY: Tony Snow had difficulty explaining that.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Define an acceptable level of violence. I mean, how could that possibly be defined?
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That's a very good question. I don't have an answer.
HENRY: A far cry from what the president was saying one year ago this month.
BUSH: ... is how do we achieve our objectives, which is a democracy which can defend itself, sustain itself, a country which is an ally in the war on terror, and a country which serves as a powerful example for others who desire to be free.
HENRY: Snow insisted there's been no shift.
SNOW: Success is still an Iraq that can sustain, govern and defend itself. It's one where you will have levels of violence that will not jeopardize the ability of the government to function on an ongoing basis.
HENRY: But with violence in Baghdad getting worse, the president's evolution has been stark. At a press conference shortly before the November election he was asked if the U.S. was winning in Iraq.
BUSH: Absolutely we're winning. HENRY: New defense secretary Robert Gates readjusted that in December.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are not winning the war in Iraq, is that correct?
ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: That is my view, yes, sir.
HENRY: Now the president says winning is an open question.
BUSH: Slowly but surely, the truth will be known. Either we'll succeed or we won't succeed.
HENRY: The president's most immediate concern is working out a deal on the war funding bill he vetoed Tuesday.
BUSH: Yesterday was a day that highlighted differences. Today is a day where we can work together to find common ground.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now, the president said he has appointed his chief of staff, Josh Bolten, to head up to Capitol Hill, try to work this out. So the president is trying to show publicly that he's reaching out to Democrats, but he's still not giving in on a timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops, so at this point, there's no compromise in sight -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, what in the world did the president mean equating levels of violence in the United States to levels of violence in Iraq?
HENRY: It's hard to figure right now, Lou. The bottom line is this did not come in the president's scripted remarks. It came during a Q&A with the audience. And Democrats are already jumping on it and comparing it to what John Kerry said.
You'll remember in the 2004 campaign, Kerry asserted that you can never really end terrorism, you can only bring it down to an acceptable level. The president, the vice president and others jumped all over Kerry and said basically he didn't get it in terms of fighting the war on terror.
Well, now the president seems to be recalibrating this. One explanation could be the president trying to change U.S. expectations of victory so he can ultimately withdraw U.S. troops. He's not ready to do that now, but he obviously realizes things are not going well -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry, thank you, from the White House.
Now that the White House and Congress have ended their veto showdown over war funding, compromise appears to be the next move. Congress unable to overcome the president's veto and votes. What are the chances tonight in Congress?
Dana Bash has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the backs of our...
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Democrats knew they did not have enough votes to override the president's veto...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two-thirds not being in the affirmative. The bill has not passed.
BASH: ... but tried anyway.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: Now it's the fifth year of a failed policy. This administration should get a clue. It's not working.
BASH: It was a combative closing scene before the next crucial act.
REP. JERRY LEWIS (R), CALIFORNIA: You've had your dog and pony show. You've posed for political holy pictures on TV. Now, what is your plan to support the troops?
BASH: Moments after the vote, the next act was under way, a bipartisan White House meeting aimed at clearing the poisonous air to make way for a compromise on a war funding bill.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R), MINORITY LEADER: I think there is a way for us to work together to try to find common ground.
PELOSI: Democrats are committed to ending this war, and we hope to do so in unison with the president.
BASH: Democrats in Congress may have picked this Iraq funding fight with the White House, but Republican lawmakers, under pressure from war-weary constituents back home, could hold the key to compromise.
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I think it is a priority that -- for every member of Congress, Republican and Democrat -- that we send a message to the civilian authority in Iraq that says we need you to make progress.
BASH: GOP congressman Mike Pence stands with the White House in opposing legislation that sets a timeline for a troop withdrawal. But he represents many rank and file Republicans who support revoking economic aid for Iraqis if they don't meet specific benchmarks showing progress.
SEN. JOHN ENSIGN (R), NEVADA: You tie the benchmarks to Iraqi reconstruction money instead of to military timelines. That would give incentive for all sides in Iraq to want to meet those, because none of them want to lose the money.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BASH: As for Democrats, privately senior Democratic sources tell CNN they will not try again to pass a war spending bill that includes a timeline for a troop withdrawal because they know President Bush simply won't sign it. They also know, Lou, that that means that they will lose support from many liberals in the Democratic Caucus who will not vote to fund the war without a plan to bring troops home -- Lou.
DOBBS: So what do they do, Dana?
BASH: Well, essentially what we understand is that they're going to start working tomorrow morning with the White House on a plan that pretty much all sides, Lou, agree will likely end up looking like what some of those Republicans were talking about. Likely look like benchmarks for Iraqis, perhaps with some kind of conditions, but nothing to do, likely, with the U.S. mission in terms of the U.S. military there. Democrats say they're going to save that fight for later on.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
As Congress and the White House struggle over the war funding, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is tonight in the Middle East, there asking for help from Iraq's neighbors. Rice is in Egypt hoping to win promises of billions of dollars in aid and debt relief for Iraq, but that summit could also yield the first high-level talks in years between the United States, Syria and Iran.
Insurgents in Iraq today killed three more of our troops. All three casualties in Baghdad. Four of our troops have now been killed in Iraq so far this month, 3,355 of our troops have been killed since the beginning of the war. 25,090 of our troops wounded, 11,215 of them seriously.
Four thousand more of our soldiers are being deployed to Baghdad tonight. Four of five additional combat brigades are now in the Iraqi capital enforcing the president's plan to shore up security, the so- called surge strategy aimed at stopping sectarian violence. All five combat brigades are expected to be fully deployed by next month.
A disturbing report tonight about who's really running things within Iraq's democratically-elected government. There may actually be a government behind the government in Baghdad, making the sectarian conflict, if possible, even worse.
Arwa Damon reports from Baghdad -- Arwa.
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, not much is known about the office, but it is raising alarm bells from Baghdad all the way to Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAMON (voice over): It's called the Office of the Commander in Chief, set to be a shadowy entity created by Iraq's prime minister. Multiple U.S. military and intelligence sources say the office has the power to overrule other Iraqi government ministries and is being used as a smokescreen to hide "an extreme Shia agenda" that is worsening Iraq's sectarian divide.
According to a U.S. intelligence source, the office is "... ensuring the emplacement of commanders it favors and can control." Specifically, removing from command or detaining Iraqi police and army officers perceived as too aggressive in cracking down on Shia militias. Allegations the government vigorously denies.
The office is such a sensitive topic that every senior U.S. and Iraqi official CNN spoke to about it asked not to be named. A senior U.S. administration official confirmed that the U.S. is working to make sure the office makes decisions for the right reasons, not sectarian ones.
Sectarian violence has claimed countless lives in Iraq. Cracking down on death squads and militias on both sides, Sunni and Shia, has been a stated goal of the Iraqi government. But now U.S. and Iraqi military officials worry that through the secretive office, the Iraqi government is taking the Shia side, potentially undermining the entire U.S. effort in Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DAMON: The Iraqi army officer said that as long as the Americans were here, the actions of the office could be controlled. But his concern was what would happen when the Americans would ultimately leave -- Lou.
DOBBS: Arwa Damon reporting from Baghdad.
Tonight Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is denying calls for his resignation. His own foreign minister today saying it is time that Olmert stepped down for his handling of the war against Hezbollah in Lebanon last year. But after meeting with Kadima Party leaders today, Olmert emerged with their backing. Olmert pledged to fix his mistakes.
Still ahead, concerns about food safety and dangerous food imports have never been greater. But the federal government has never been more complacent. Why is that? Does it have anything to do with leadership?
We'll have a special report.
Also, folk singer and antiwar activist Joan Baez said she was banned from a concert for wounded troops at Walter Reed. The military, a different view.
We'll have that story.
And please join us 8:00 p.m. tonight Eastern for a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, "Broken Borders," coming to you from Penn State Hazleton campus in Hazleton, Pennsylvania. We'll focus on broken borders and what local communities are facing all around the nation in our illegal immigration crisis.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Welcome back to the Penn State Hazleton campus in Hazleton, Pennsylvania. We'll be bringing you a special report at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time tonight here on CNN on "Broken Borders," our illegal immigration crisis.
Tonight, the Food and Drug Administration wants to widen its warning about antidepressants and suicide. It's been three years since the FDA first required antidepressant labels to include a warning that the drugs can lead to suicidal thoughts among children and adolescents. Now the FDA is proposing to expand that warning to people between the ages of 18 and 24.
A study last month found that at least for children and teens, the benefits of treatment still outweigh the risk of suicidal thoughts.
The FDA has appointed a new food czar, Dr. David Acheson, to oversee food safety in this country. The appointment came after a hearing on food safety chaired by Congressman Henry Waxman.
Kitty Pilgrim now reports on the rising calls for improved food safety in this country.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Chinese additives, tainted spinach, E. coli contamination. But the current FDA commissioner says the inspection system is adequate.
ANDREW VON ESCHENBACH, FDA COMMISSIONER: I disagree that our food system is broken.
PILGRIM: The chairman of the committee questioning the competency of the agency.
REP. HENRY WAXMAN (D), CHAIRMAN, OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: In all these cases we know that incompetent government can have deadly consequences.
PILGRIM: In recent years, the budget has been cut, the FDA staff reduced, and few officials stay at the job at the troubled agency.
FRANK YOUNG, FMR. FDA COMMISSIONER: The turnover and the short- term commissioners in recent years has been scandalous.
PILGRIM: But some of the congressional panel questioned the "money solves all" approach to increasing the agency's $1.5 billion budget.
REP. VIRGINIA FOXX (R), NORTH CAROLINA: And I believe that unless we devise a system where people individually are held responsible at every step of the way for a certain level of performance, that no amount of money is going to create the kind of system you're talking about.
PILGRIM: One problem, much of the imported food is eaten in a raw or fresh state, increasing the risk of potential contamination.
China, with few internal safety checks on its own food supply, is the third largest food exporter to the United States. And with FDA inspections on less than two percent of imports, some companies ignore rules and hope they don't get caught.
Within the FDA, food safety gets less attention than drug approvals.
DAVID KESSLER, FMR. FDA COMMISSIONER: Food safety has been a second-tier priority within the FDA.
PILGRIM: The volume of imports keeps growing, doubling since the year 2000. And some domestic producers only get an FDA visit once every five to 10 years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: By the panel estimate, the agency is under-budgeted by 20 percent. But the FDA is responsible for inspecting 80 percent of the nation's food supply. It's clearly a security risk on a national scale -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
Kitty Pilgrim.
A warning tonight from federal officials that animal feed contaminated with a toxic Chinese chemical has entered the human food chain and may affect a number of organizations in this country. Chicken feed containing tainted pet food has been found at 38 Indiana farms so far. That pet food contains tainted wheat gluten imported from China.
Federal officials say it's unlikely humans will become sick, they say, from eating chicken fed the contaminated products.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Let's turn to Tina in Pennsylvania. "As I watched the illegal immigrants march on the streets of the USA, I was filled with anger. I wonder why they feel they can demand our laws be changed to suit them and why they are not brave enough to confront their own governments and demand change in their own country."
And John in Texas, "Illegal aliens complain that sending them back to Mexico would be unfair because it would split up families. Did they ever stop to think that there is no reward for breaking the law, only consequences?"
And Susan in California, "Don't come in through the back door and wave the flag of your birth country in my face. Being accepted into this country is a privilege, not a right. If you don't agree with that, go home."
We'll have more on your thoughts here later in the broadcast.
Coming up next, the House majority leader joins us here, Congressman Steny Hoyer, with the very latest on the deadlock between the White House and congressional leadership. He's just returned from a meeting at the White House.
And we will also be telling you that you may be surprised when we tell you who's eligible for all of those free school lunches and those perks of citizenship.
Folk singer and antiwar activist Joan Baez barred from performing for our wounded troops at Walter Reed.
That story and a great deal more still ahead.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Army tonight is tightening it restrictions on the blogs of our soldiers. The military already has strict rules about what troops and combat can say on the Internet, but military officials say troops who have returned from war zones must now also submit those blogs for review before they're published.
And the Defense Department is taking new steps to improve the scandalous conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where many of our wounded troops recover. Defense Secretary Robert Gates has appointed a new oversight committee to make certain recommendations from an independent panel investigating the hospital are put into effect. That new committee will be made up of senior military and civilian officials and will meet each and every week.
There's a new controversy involving Walter Reed tonight, but it's not over medical care for our troops. It centers on folk singer and antiwar activist Joan Baez. She says she was banned from joining singer John Mellencamp at a concert for our wounded troops at Walter Reed, but the Army says that's not so.
Jamie McIntyre has the report for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): John Mellencamp won praise for how at his Friday night concert for wounded troops at Walter Reed he stuck to singing and muzzled his criticism of the Iraq war. But his friend, antiwar activist Joan Baez, has put politics back on center stage with a letter to "The Washington Post" alleging she was banned from appearing at the event at the last minute.
Baez writes that while she stands as firmly against the Iraq War as she did the Vietnam War, she regrets having ignored the needs of returning veterans and realizes now she might have contributed to a better welcome home. And she calls it a "strange irony" that four days before the concert she was not approved by the Army to take part.
The Army insists there's nothing strange about it. They simply didn't know Joan Baez and Dan Rather were also invited to appear until after a contract with HDNetwork, which was broadcasting the concert, had been finalized.
A spokesman for Walter Reed told CNN, "The notion Ms. Baez was 'banned' is certainly not the case. She is welcome here. I don't know of anybody who is banned."
A spokesman for Mellencamp confirmed to CNN that Joan Baez' name was not submitted until the Monday before the Friday concert, but said that's when they had planned to deal with specifics. The Army insisted that was simply too late to change the complicated arrangements.
Joan Baez sings a duet with Mellencamp on his current album, "Freedom's Road". At the concert he simply dedicated that song to his friend Joan without any fanfare.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: It turns out that Dan Rather was just planning to interview John Mellencamp and their schedules didn't mesh. But as for Joan Baez, a spokesman for John Mellencamp said he doesn't think there is any political litmus test for performing at Walter Reed. After all, he said Mellencamp is against the war and they let him in -- Lou.
DOBBS: Pretty complicated when some people apparently forgot that the point of this was to entertain our wounded warriors at Walter Reed.
Jamie, thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre.
Coming up next, Democrats considering a new strategy in the political showdown with the president over the conduct of the war in Iraq. I'll be joined by House Majority Leader Congressman Steny Hoyer, who's just returned from the White House for an obviously high- level discussion about compromise.
And startling new evidence of the huge number of American jobs exported to communist China. We'll have that special report.
And the Los Angeles Police Department facing strong criticism after officers used batons and rubber bullets to break up a pro- amnesty rally. We'll have the story.
And please join us 8:00 p.m. tonight for a special -- 8:00 p.m. Eastern, I should say, for a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, "Broken Borders," coming to you live from the Penn State Hazleton campus in Hazleton, Pennsylvania. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In Los Angeles, the chief of police and other officials promised a full investigation into the violence that broke out at the end of yesterday's otherwise peaceful pro-amnesty rally. Police fired rubber bullets and swung their batons in efforts to disperse elements of the crowd from a city park. Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton, in fact, told a local radio station some actions, he said, taken by his officers seemed inappropriate.
Fifteen police officers among those injured in the melee. None of the injuries were believed to be serious and, activist organizers of those demonstrations said they believe the people confronting the police were anarchists.
Mexico's army today said five of its soldiers were shot and killed by gunmen in the western part of the country, officials blaming drug cartel gunman for that gunfight in the town of Caracuaro. One of the gunmen also killed in the exchange of fire.
Violence by drug cartels vying for control of the lucrative drug trade into the United States, now an almost daily occurrence in Mexico. Some of that violence is, of course, crossing into the United States across the border.
The state of Oklahoma may be about to crack down on illegal immigration. Governor Brad Henry is considering a final version of an illegal immigration bill that would deny jobs and benefits to illegal aliens in that state. He would also target businesses which hire illegal aliens. Supporters of the bill say it could save the state up to $200 million a year.
Well, there may be about a crackdown on illegal immigration in Oklahoma. Governor in Oklahoma, there are plenty of other states and cities where illegal aliens enjoy many benefits and privileges.
Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States of America offers the best deal in illegal immigration in the world. For those illegal aliens nervous about their illegal presence, there are cities which have declared federal immigration policy null and void. Those sanctuaries include the cities of San Francisco, Oakland, Los Angeles, San Diego, Denver, Chicago, Dallas, Austin, New York, Boston, Cambridge, Virginia Beach.
MARK KRIKORIAN, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: And if you're arrested, some state and local governments will spend taxpayer money to help you -- give you legal representation.
TUCKER: Illegal aliens in need of a driver's license can go to one of eight states which will give them a license to drive, no questions asked: Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Michigan, Maryland, New Mexico and Utah. There are even auto insurance companies eager to insure illegal aliens.
That driver's license or the matricula consular's card issued by the government of Mexico to its citizens with no passport or visa, can be used to open a bank account, obtain credit cards, loans, even home mortgages.
DAN STEIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: It is enormous, tremendous economic benefit to someone to break the law and come here illegally, particularly if they have less education.
TUCKER: Children of illegal aliens receive free tuition in state public schools, as well as free school lunches. In the states of California, Texas, New York, Utah, Illinois, Washington, Kansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico and Nebraska, illegal aliens can go to college paying the in-state tuition rate, a rate not available to citizens who happen to live outside of those states.
There is medical care, limited to the emergency room, of any hospital who, by law, cannot charge those who cannot pay or have no insurance. The message is inescapable.
GLENN GROTHMAN, WISCONSIN STATE SENATE: When parts of the U.S. government or state governments provide programs for people who are here illegally, it's just like saying, "Please ignore the law, the law doesn't count anyway."
TUCKER: And those are just the privileges.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: As for rights, an illegal alien is covered by our Constitution, just like everyone living in America. Which means, Lou, that they enjoy the right to free speech and the right to assemble, as we've seen -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much. Breathtaking incentives, I think, for anyone to immigrate here, illegally or otherwise.
The Bush administration allowing thousands of so-called temporary refugees to remain in the United States. About 300,000 refugees from El Salvador, Honduras and Nicaragua allowed in the United States and given temporary protective status. Now that status is extended. They were offered refuge because of ongoing extraordinary circumstances, such as armed conflict or environmental disasters in their own countries.
In some cases, however, the refugees have been in this country, already, almost ten years. Another example of how the federal government fails to enforce its own immigration laws. A special law is meant to be temporary.
Almost six years after the 9/11 attacks, the Department of Homeland Security will finally use the Interpol database of stolen passports. Stolen passports, especially blank passports, are a considerable threat to border security, because they're not easily detected by immigration officers.
The international police organization made that information available to the United States two years ago. In the past, the Department of Homeland Security said it was reluctant to use that database because the U.S. had access to better information through its own terrorist watch list.
The House of Representatives today failed to override the president's veto of the $124 billion war spending bill that contained a timetable for withdrawal of our troops from Iraq. Congressional leaders today met with the president to try to find some common ground.
Joining me now is House majority leader, Congressman Steny Hoyer, obviously, among those in that consultation with the president, with the Democratic and Republican leadership in the Senate and the House.
Congressman, good to have you here.
REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD), MAJORITY LEADER: Thank you, Lou, good to be with you.
DOBBS: Well, let me ask you. It's clear you couldn't get the votes to override the veto. It's clear the president is going to continue to veto it. Both the president and you and the Democratic leadership have expressed a desire to compromise. Anything happen today at that meeting in the White House that gives you, or any of us, hope that a compromise is a possibility?
HOYER: Yes, I think the answer to that, Lou, is yes. The president indicated that he wanted to sit down and discuss in good faith how we could move forward, Speaker Pelosi and Speaker (sic) Reid said the same thing. I think we all felt that we need to move forward.
We've indicated we want to fund the troops. We've also indicated that we want responsibility and accountability, particularly as it relates to Iraqi performance and to trying to work towards a way to see our troops redeployed out of the civil war that they find themselves between.
So -- but I think there is optimism, because I think both sides legitimately indicated they want to move forward. In addition to that, Lou, there certainly was an expression on both sides that we think moving forward quickly is the objective and passing a bill into law and fully funding the troops by the Memorial Day break. In other words, three and a half, four weeks from now would be our objective.
As you know, the bill that was vetoed, of course, fully funded the troops and, in fact, gave the president more money to fight terrorism than he asked for.
DOBBS: Let me...
HOYER: I think there is room for optimism. DOBBS: All right, well, I'll take room for optimism, as I'm sure every American will. Let's go to something that President Bush said today, if we could roll that statement by the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Whether you are a Republican or Democrat, there is no benefit in allowing a widespread humanitarian nightmare to consume Iraq. There would be no benefit in allowing chaos to spill out of Iraq and into the broader Middle East.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Do you believe that, as the president articulated it, that that would be the consequence of withdrawing our combat troops beginning as early as this fall?
HOYER: Well, not necessarily do I believe that. Is there a bad situation in Iraq? Yes. In fact, many believe that it's getting worse. As you know, we've lost 10 percent of all the people we've lost over the four years plus of this war in the last four months.
This month, last April, the worst month other than five others during this four-year period. And the worst month this year.
So, there is a very difficult situation that exists in Iraq, and we -- it hasn't gotten better. And Secretary Gates said that we weren't winning this effort.
But, certainly, none of us want to see chaos, which is why we had a staged redeployment. We had benchmarks for Iraqi performance. General Petraeus, Lou, as you know, has said this is only subject to a political resolution, not a military resolution. What our bill attempted to do...
DOBBS: What every American, Majority Leader, wants, I believe it's fair to say, irrespective of whether they're calling for as quick a withdrawal of our troops as possible or staying the course, every American wants our troops provided for. How soon will we see funding? How soon will we see a compromise that will take care of our troops?
HOYER: Well, as I said, Lou, we're hopeful to get this done by the end of May.
DOBBS: Secretary Hoyer, we thank you.
HOYER: I reiterate, we want to fund the troops, and the president does, as well.
DOBBS: All right. Absolutely. Majority Leader Hoyer, we thank you very much for being with us. Congressman Steny Hoyer.
HOYER: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up here next, the case of a former engineer accused of plotting to give highly sensitive U.S. military information to communist China on the stand in his own defense. That report is coming up next.
And shocking new revelations on how communist China's trade policies are literally destroying American jobs. You won't be believe how many jobs have been lost, how many are being lost every month and the pay differential between the jobs lost and the jobs taken.
We'll have that story and a great deal more. We're coming right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Chi Mak, the naturalized citizen, denies on the stand charges that he sent critical U.S. military technology to communist China.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Accused spy Chi Mak's defense attorney, Ronald Kaye, finally asked the question at the heart of his trial. Are you a spy for the People's Republic of China? Mak answered emphatically no.
It was in sharp contrast to the mostly soft-spoken former defense engineer's other testimony, denying he gave restricted military information to communist China.
Kaye asked Mak, "Why did you believe it was OK to give documents to your brother Tai to take to China?"
Mak said, "Because they were already presented in public meetings."
Mak also testified he was trying to help Chinese relatives and friend with commercial, not military technology.
ADAM SIEGEL, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: What the Chinese are increasingly interested in are what would be called dual use technologies. Technologies that both have a use for commercial production and also for military production.
Parts of the Chinese government are clearly interested in targeting the naturalized Chinese or Chinese in the United States to try to gain access to American technology.
WIAN: The defense is attempting to portray Mak's transfer of documents about stealth submarine propulsion, electromagnetic launch systems for aircraft carriers, Aegis radar and other military technology as harmless. Chinese espionage experts are skeptical.
JAMES LILLEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADORS TO CHINA: What are they going after? Aegis class electrical circuit systems. What are they going after? Submarine propulsion quieting capability. What are they going after? Aircraft carrier construction. Three main targets the Chinese have laid out in their concepts of asymmetrical warfare against the United States.
WIAN: Mak faces 50 years in prison on charges that include acting as an agent of the Chinese government, violating U.S. export control laws and lying to the FBI.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Prosecutors will have their shot at Chi Mak as early as tomorrow, and the jury is expected to get this case, Lou, early next week -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, it sound like it's going to be pretty straightforward. Either those documents and that technology had been presented publicly, which seems to me mind-boggling, but knowing how this government operates, I'm not sure that I should be quite that surprised. It looks like a straightforward case, either a straight up or down on this issue.
WIAN: On that issue, it may be straightforward, Lou, but there are a lot of gray areas in this case. For instance, how does Chi Mak explain the tasking lists that were found in his home that clearly delineated several U.S. defense technologies that he was collecting information on.
And on those documents that were presented in public conferences, it's not clear that it was not legal to export those documents to China -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right. Well, as you say, gray areas. You've been reporting on this case diligently and thoroughly. It seems to me that they're gray areas that that would attend for Mak's side of this legal proceeding. It's going to be interesting to see which way this goes.
It also boggles the mind that the United States government is not being more protective of that technology and classified material. Thank you very much, Casey Wian, from Santa Ana, California.
Staggering new numbers tonight on the number of American jobs being lost to communist China. As Lisa Sylvester reports, it's not only manufacturing jobs that are disappearing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More and more trade with China is becoming a one-way street. We buy, they sell. In 1997, the U.S. trade deficit with China was $50 billion. Last year, it was $235 billion.
Since China joined the World Trade Organization, nearly two million U.S. jobs have been displaced, according to a new report by the Economic Policy Institute.
ROBERT SCOTT, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: We lost 1.8 million jobs. It's about 400,000 a year, roughly the total employment of Dayton, Ohio.
SYLVESTER: That means every year the United States loses roughly the equivalent of the jobs in a small city to one country, China.
Every state has been affected. But the states that have been hardest hit as a share of total employment are New Hampshire, North Carolina and California.
Manufacturing workers are the most vulnerable, but they're certainly not the only workers. High-paying jobs in information processing, computers and electronic industries are also being shipped to China. Displaced American workers often move into jobs that don't pay as much.
ALAN TOMELSON, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRIAL COUNCIL: Jobs lost from foreign competition and from other trade-related forces are almost never replaced by jobs that pay at that level. They are almost always replaced by jobs that not only pay much less, but carry many fewer non-wage benefits.
SYLVESTER: Chinese businesses have been able to gobble up so many American jobs, not because they out-compete, says the Economic Policy Institute, but because China manipulates its currency, subsidizes exports and does not observe international labor standards.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Economic Policy Institute report estimates that, if communist China did not suppress labor rights and allow the labor market to work freely, wages there would be 47 to 85 percent higher -- Lou.
DOBBS: And still, certainly, nothing close to parity with the American worker and his or her wages and compensation of benefits.
Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester, raising the question of what happens now that the Democrats are in charge. Will they approve the trade promotion authority to continue to drive the so- called, but obviously very expensive, free trade policies? We'll find out.
Coming up next, amnesty for illegal aliens. The controversial proposal moving closer to reality in the minds of many lawmakers. Two of those lawmakers have introduced amnesty legislation. They are not going to like the fact I call it amnesty, but I'm sure they'll be glad to talk about it. Congressman Jeff Flake, Congressman Luis Gutierrez join me.
And please be sure to join us tonight, 8 p.m. Eastern. Our special town hall meeting, "Broken Borders", exploring the issue of illegal immigration and its impact on communities such as Hazleton, Pennsylvania. Among our guests will be the mayor of Hazelton, Lou Barletta, and every possible side in this dispute, this crisis, we think, will be represented. Please join us.
We're going to come right back. We'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Well, a new bipartisan bill aimed at granting amnesty to as many as 20 million illegal aliens, introduced in the House of Representatives almost two months ago. It's the STRIVE Act of 2007, co-sponsored by Republican Congressman Jeff Flake of Arizona, Democratic Congressman Luis Gutierrez of Illinois. And, gentlemen, it is good to have you here.
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: Thanks for having us.
DOBBS: Following the demonstrations yesterday, I've got to say, Congressman Gutierrez, even though I don't think Chicago got the credit, it looks to me like Congressman Gutierrez wins. Chicago had the biggest demonstrations in the country. Would you agree with that?
GUTIERREZ: I think, by and large, yes. We have a rich tradition of Chicago of welcoming immigrants, their contributions to the vitality and the strength of our city. And I think it showed yesterday.
DOBBS: Congressman, I was just complimenting you. I didn't want you to get off on a speech.
GUTIERREZ: For some, it's a speech, but from me, it's really from my heart, Lou.
DOBBS: I hear you. I hear you.
All right, Congressman Flake, let's start with the fact that we're supposed to have a debate beginning on the 14th of May, get this thing moving. Are you going to be able to pass this legislation?
REP. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: I sure hope so. We desperately need it. Arizona being right on the border, we feel the brunt of illegal immigration. So, we've got to have a bill, and I think this is the best compromise bill we can get.
DOBBS: Let's go through a few things about this bill, and let's not get into a discussion whether it's amnesty or earned path, whatever. It does have a touchback provision, which is the beginning of an improvement, in my humble estimation.
But Congressman Gutierrez, how much money does your legislation provide for CIS, Citizenship and Immigration Service, to take on the addition of processing anywhere from 12 to 20 million illegal aliens into the program?
GUTIERREZ: Well, first of all, funds are the fines. The 200,000 fine for each person who wishes, not their minor children, but for each adult that goes through the program, will be used for impacts. Impacts for local government on education and health care, and other kind of vital services.
DOBBS: But how much money?
GUTIERREZ: Well, I think there needs to be appropriations, obviously, added to make the bill functional, so that we can get our job done. Obviously, in every aspect of the bill, this is a legislative bill. We need to get to the appropriations part so that we can appropriate the correct amount of money to meet our goal and mission.
DOBBS: Right. And the guest worker program that you envisioned, Congressman Flake, would those people then be eligible to earn their way to citizenship, as you put it or, as I would say, find -- find an automatic path to citizenship?
FLAKE: Nothing is automatic in this bill. Nobody would get an automatic path to citizenship. But, yes, some that come here, as a guest worker or a temporary worker, would have eligibility or would be able to adjust their status at some point.
Those who are here now illegally, it's a tough process. There are fines. There are waiting periods. There's a touchback, but there is a possibility for some to adjust their status.
DOBBS: Right. Let me ask you this: would you gentlemen consider an economic impact statement as a condition precedent to any debate of your bill or discussion of it? Because it seems there is scant information about what it's going to cost, about what will be required to be spent on the border. Would you gentlemen be up for that idea, Congressman Gutierrez?
GUTIERREZ: Well, I think whatever it costs to secure our borders is money well spent. I think the Congress of the United States has a responsibility to secure that border. And I'm sure we're up to the task.
DOBBS: Then why in the heck -- why in the heck hasn't Congress secured that border?
GUTIERREZ: Can I -- I'd love to answer that question, Lou.
DOBBS: All right.
GUTIERREZ: Because immigration reform hasn't been comprehensive, Lou. We have a border where we want to build a fence when we have great technology that will help us more. We haven't taken care of internal security issues here in the United States, like a biometric car so we can...
DOBBS: I've got to interrupt you. I've got to interrupt you, I'm sorry, Congressman Gutierrez. I've got to give Congressman Flake the last word. We've got about 40 seconds. And fire at will, Congressman.
FLAKE: I think Congressman Gutierrez is exactly right. Nearly half of those who are here illegally now didn't sneak across the border. So you've got to go to the workplace and have verifiable enforcement, verifiable records, verifiable cards where employers can actually tell who they're hiring. It's got to be enforced there, as well.
DOBBS: Congressman Flake, Congressman Gutierrez, as always, gentlemen, good to talk with you. Appreciate you being here.
GUTIERREZ: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, "THE SITUATION ROOM" and my colleague, Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou.
The former CIA director, George Tenet, firing back at critics and speaking candidly about the run-up to the war in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Do you have any regrets? Do you want to apologize to the American public?
GEORGE TENET, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Wolf, we regret the fact that we were wrong on WMD.
BLITZER: Do you want to apologize?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: My one-on-one interview with George Tenet. That's coming up.
Also I'll speak with Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards. Find out why he says President Bush must be stopped right now.
Plus, insight and a few surprises in Ronald Reagan's personal diaries. We're going to tell you what's inside.
All that, Lou, coming up right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM".
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf.
And coming up here next, we're going to have more of your thoughts. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Time now for more of your thoughts.
Sharon in Georgia wrote in to say, "I can't think of a single other country in the world that would put up with people intentionally crossing their borders illegally. Why should we?"
And Lawrence in Missouri: "When people enter our country illegally and, in turn, decide what the laws of the land are to be and which already established laws will or will not be obeyed, there's something terribly wrong."
And Stanley in South Carolina: "CNN uses terms," referring to the network, "like undocumented workers and illegal immigrants. The correct term is illegal aliens." That's why we on this broadcast, as you may have noticed, use the correct term.
And Lisa in Minnesota: "To hell with political correctness. We are Americans, and this country speaks English. If the federal government and the current idiots in Washington won't work for us, then they are against us."
And William in Washington: "Would it be possible to add 'hell no' or 'no!' to the options given for answers to your daily poll? At times, no just doesn't seem enough."
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us in one hour for our special town hall meeting from Hazleton, Pennsylvania. We'll examine the illegal immigration crisis in this country and look at a few solutions, with full participation in this great community here.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" is about to begin with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks, Lou.
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