Return to Transcripts main page
Mother Charged With Murder of Infant
Aired May 2, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight: An Arizona community in shock. Just minutes after giving birth, a 28-year-old mom allegedly drowns her infant girl in the same tub where she delivers the baby. Then, with the baby wrapped in plastic, she takes her three other children on a trip across town to a gas station, where she dumps the newborn girl in a trash bin. Mommy now facing murder charges.
And, tonight, the 7-month-old baby girl of cover girl Anna Nicole Smith finally back on good, old U.S. soil. The daddy, photographer Larry Birkhead, continues bonding with the little girl, sharing her with close family and friends.
But, tonight, is it really about family, or is it all about the money? All the parties seem to keep cutting multimillion-dollar deals, including Birkhead reportedly paid millions for a photo shoot with the baby. Anna Nicole`s only living heir also set to inherit a half-billion-dollar stake. Tonight, as the custody battle goes on, what is to become of all this money? And who is really looking out for Dannielynn`s best interests?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM O`NEIL, "L.A. TIMES": Larry`s riding this train. He can now say, when he gets to California next, which is where he`s headed after this, you know, jurisdiction changes, and Virgie`s got to fight me out here.
LARRY BIRKHEAD, FATHER OF DANNIELYNN SMITH: It feels good to be home. And who knows what`s next? I have a one-way ticket right now, so we`ll see.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Larry was told that he must go back to the Bahamas on June 8th with Dannielynn. So it seems a big risky to me for Larry to be taking this chance and not -- if he says a one-way ticket, he won`t go back to the Bahamas, you know, it sounds a bit risky. Surely, if he`s got Dannielynn now and he`s happy, why not play by the rules that the courts have set out and just play safe?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Virgie, once Dannielynn steps on this soil after the custody hearing in June, if she doesn`t win there, Virgie has a legal plan here to sue Larry right away and try to start for custody in the United States.
I don`t think he`s bitter as much as he is disappointed. He expected that level of cooperation. He expected to have Virgie to come up to Kentucky and spend time with Dannielynn, and maybe, you know, he and Danni would go down to Texas in the future and spend some time down there. I think he`s more disappointed than anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Larry is going to be running up some extreme expenses here. I mean, we`ve been hearing reports that he`s got a tip-top security firm now looking after him and Dannielynn, because she`s potentially a target for kidnapping.
O`NEIL: On one hand, he`s selling photographs, quite legitimately. Those pictures that appeared in "OK" magazine I`m sure were for a hefty sum. And I don`t think there`s anything wrong with that. I think he`s certainly entitled to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in tonight for Nancy Grace.
First, breaking news in Arizona, where a newborn baby girl is found dead in a gas station trash bin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just horrible. I don`t understand how people can do this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Holding her daughter tighter than ever, Lindsey Pool (ph) is sickened to learn a neighbor allegedly tossed her newborn in the trash.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It breaks my heart. Who would do that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Scottsdale police say, on Friday morning, 28- year-old Cynthia Tureman, a wife and mother of three, did the unthinkable: gave birth to a baby girl in the bathtub of her home, then plotted to throw the newborn away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The baby seemed to be full term, approximately four pounds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives say Tureman wrapped the child in plastic, then allegedly dumped her tiny body in this gas station garbage can. What makes the crime even more despicable: Police say Tureman then went shopping for a new car stereo. At closing time, a store employee made a strange discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We found what seemed to be an afterbirth that was bundled up in the trash can.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Folks at Stereoworks called police. Turns out Tureman was the only female customer Friday. Later that night, cops tracked her down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really don`t know how you can do it. I don`t. It`s such a precious gift; I don`t know how you can do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Hello, I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace tonight. If that wasn`t bad enough, just listen to this. I`ll read for you, quote, "She said the baby reached its arms out to her after she gave birth, but she did not pick it up."
All right, you know, I`m in a state of shock. Just when you think you`ve heard it all. Let`s go to Carol Sowers, "Arizona Republic." What is this woman about? And, for heaven`s sakes, is your town turned upside down tonight?
CAROL SOWERS, "THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC": Well, surprisingly, we haven`t had a great deal of reaction. I`ve had a few e-mails from people who are disgusted and, like the other woman said, can`t believe this happened. But what little we know about her is that, of course, she was a mother of three, and she admittedly told police she killed her baby because she didn`t want her husband to know about her pregnancy.
LALAMA: Oh, unbelievable. All right, then let`s talk now to Shawn Sanders from Scottsdale Police Department. You`re the PIO, and thanks for being with us. Wrap up the case for us as much as you can. And what does this woman now face?
SHAWN SANDERS, SCOTTSDALE POLICE PIO: She now faces first-degree murder charges. She is currently in jail without bond. And this is just a tough case for everyone who`s involved. And maybe some of this could have been avoided, perhaps, if the safe haven law were taken advantage of by the mother.
And just quickly what that is, is back in the summer of 2001, Arizona passed a law called the Newborn Safe Haven Law for women who find themselves in a pregnancy crisis. And what the law states is that you can give up your baby at any hospital or fire station within three days of birth. You don`t have to give your name. No questions asked. And the truly sad story is, is that the mother gave birth within a mile of a fire station from her house.
LALAMA: Unbelievable. You know, I want to go right out to my friend, Gloria Allred, child advocate. You know, there are so many questions to ask in this case. But, first of all, speaking of the welfare of this child, I mean, why would not a woman, first of all, say, "I`m going to do the best thing for this child," and the other -- I have so many questions, but the other one is, you know, clearly premeditation here. The fact that you could go buy some water, pump some gas, move the baby around, Gloria, what do you read into this?
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, Pat, the safe haven laws are important, but they`re of no use whatsoever if women don`t know about them. So we don`t know whether this woman, Cynthia, actually even knew there was such a thing as a safe haven law and that she could secretly, quietly, confidentially leave her baby at a fire station or at a hospital.
So we need to do a better job of educating women, perhaps through the doctors for prenatal visits, perhaps in other ways, as well, so that every woman knows that that is available to her, if it is in her city.
LALAMA: Let`s go back out to Shawn again from Scottsdale P.D. You know, I understand that some of the other charges revolve around child abuse. Could you explain that for us?
SANDERS: Well, regarding the child abuse charges, regarding her actions, you know, after the baby was born, was something that, you know, detectives were looking into. And that`s where the child abuse charges come into factor here.
LALAMA: All right. Now, my understanding is she could face life in prison, if convicted in this matter?
SANDERS: That is a possibility, yes.
LALAMA: All right. And back out to "The Arizona Republic," Carol Sowers, what do we know about this woman? Have we heard anything about her past at this point? We know she had three other children and didn`t want to lose her husband.
SOWERS: Right. We don`t know very much about her. We haven`t found very much information about her, and I don`t think the neighbors have been very enlightening about her, either.
But to Shawn`s point about the safe haven law, passed in 2001, by 2005, only 11 mothers had ever brought their babies to a fire station or a hospital. And that`s because there`s simply not enough, as Gloria said, simply not enough advertisement about it, not enough publicity.
LALAMA: Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, this is going to be a doozy. You know, I don`t want to start screaming that there might be some sort of insanity thing here; I don`t know how anyone would imply insanity to this. Maybe you can educate me. What would you do with this case?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the act itself is simply so crazy. How would anybody with a child that was just born in the bathtub, the child`s reaching for the mother, and she deliberately holds it under the water? That`s the only thing -- I mean, it`s not a whodunit. It`s a "Why did she do it?"
And look how young she is there. I just don`t see -- and the problem that she`s going to have is that she gave such a lengthy statement. And if it`s on video, then we`re going to see what her mental state is. So she`s going to have to contend with that.
LALAMA: Michael Cardoza, are you in agreement that she talked too much, she gave up too much stuff, by saying, "Gee, I didn`t want to lose my husband"? I mean, go ahead, what`s your opinion?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly, she talked too much. Coming from a defense perspective, you never like to see your clients talk at all. She talked herself right into a first-degree murder.
But, you know, you talk about insanity. Remember, insanity, to get there, a defendant, an accused doesn`t have to know right from wrong. In other words, you don`t know right from wrong. This woman obviously factually knew right from wrong, so you`re never going to sell an insanity defense.
You`re certainly going to have a psychiatrist look at her and try and lessen the degree, bring it down from a first, which requires the premeditation, the malice of forethought, bring it down maybe to a second or a voluntary manslaughter, which would give her less time.
I`ll tell you what: This is a case you don`t want to put in front of the jury, because the first thing that will come out of the district attorney`s mouth is: That little baby was reaching toward her mother. And, you know, the jury will look and go, "Guilty. Why are we here?" So you`ve got to plea bargain this.
LALAMA: Is it possible, Gloria, that -- I`m just throwing this out here -- that a judge would say that`s so prejudicial? I mean, it is incredibly inflammatory. Just that image, I almost feel like I`m worried about tainting the jury right now. What do you make of that comment?
ALLRED: Well, good question. But I think, no, it would come in, because it is part of the facts or part of the admission that she has made. I think her only hope is, if, in fact, she was not advised that she had a right to have an attorney, if she was so advised...
ALLRED: ... and did not waive her right, and said she wants an attorney, then maybe the whole statement can be suppressed. But if that comes in, that is certainly going to have a lot of jury appeal for the prosecution.
LALAMA: Oh, unbelievable.
Bethany Marshall, from a psychological standpoint, what kind of woman says, "I was afraid of losing my husband"? And let`s not forget that she claims she was attacked up in Washington visiting her mom.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.
LALAMA: Took a couple of pregnancy tests. We`ll get back to those facts later, but just, very briefly, I mean, what kind of thing is that? You told me something very interesting in the makeup room. Let`s hear it again.
MARSHALL: Well, one of the things we know about women who kill their newborns is they have a powerful capacity to disavow what`s happening. To disavow is means you both know something and you don`t know it all at the same time. That`s not insanity, by the way; it`s a powerful defense mechanism.
So she knew she was pregnant enough to take the pregnancy tests, to be afraid that her husband would find out, to fill the bathtub with 12 inches of water, and give birth to the baby under water, so the baby wouldn`t cry out, because newborns cry when they come out of the womb, and so that she could evade detection.
But then she also didn`t allow herself to process what was happening to her, and that`s why she didn`t use the safe haven law, because she didn`t want to think about it. She could have gotten an abortion if she wanted this child eradicated, but that would require her to think about it.
LALAMA: Dr. Jennifer Shu, pediatrician, thanks for being with us. Do you believe that she didn`t know she was pregnant until the last minute?
DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN: You know, the baby was born very small. The baby was about four pounds, and an average baby is about seven and a half. So it`s possible that the mom just didn`t gain a whole lot of weight during that pregnancy and might not have had any symptoms that could show her or anybody else that she was pregnant.
LALAMA: What do you make of this case? You`ve probably heard about a lot of horrific, similar kinds of things. But what do you make of this one? What stands out in this case for you, as a pediatrician and expert?
SHU: Well, I think what`s interesting is that the mom purposely gave birth in the water and then, after that, held the baby down. A baby that age, any age, can drown in less than an inch of water in less than three minutes. So it`s something that can happen quickly, and it`s very permanent.
LALAMA: Pat Brown, criminal profiler extraordinaire, what do you make of this case? Is her story -- I mean, what about this story, that "I got attacked in Washington and didn`t want to tell anybody"?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Pat, I think this important thing about this safe haven thing we ought to look at. The problem isn`t that this woman didn`t know about safe haven. She could have had all the information in the world about safe haven. She didn`t care about the baby. The baby was an object. She wanted it out of the way. She had no feelings for it. And so she wasn`t going to make use of any safe haven. She just wanted to get rid of it.
Now, it`s interesting, too, if this were a man, for example, if she had been out of the room and her husband had seen the baby and taken the baby into the bathtub and drowned, and then threw it away, and went out and bought a car radio, we would think, "What a horrible creature." We would have no excuse for him. This woman has no excuse. She`s a psychopath who didn`t want that baby to get in the way of her life for whatever reasons.
LALAMA: Thanks so much.
Shawn Sanders from the police department, you know, I`ve worked with cops for 30 years, and you get a pretty tough skin after a while, but I`ve seen them cry, as well. This one had to really shake up your department today.
SANDERS: Definitely. This is a tough case for everybody involved. You know, in law enforcement community, we have families, we have children. And it is a tough case for us involved, as well, as, you know, viewers who are getting more facts about the case. This isn`t easy for anybody.
LALAMA: Oh, I`ll bet. Carol Sowers from "Arizona Republic," this woman -- I know you say we don`t know a lot about her, but I understand that she is being held without bail and the other three children, I`m assuming, are with their father. And what do we know about the father? Is he in a state of shock?
SOWERS: Well, we have not found him, but he -- I think a point that`s missing here is the reason she was afraid her husband would find out is that he had had a vasectomy five years ago, so she knew that she couldn`t be pregnant by him.
And in addition, she told police that they didn`t sleep -- or he told police they didn`t sleep together much because he worked a graveyard shift, and that she simply didn`t know she was pregnant, and she was afraid that he would find out and she`d lose him or that she was having an affair. She was worried he would think she was having an affair, which she denied.
LALAMA: She said he was insecure, as I recall, and didn`t want him to know.
SOWERS: Exactly right.
LALAMA: I have a feeling there`s a lot more to this case that we haven`t found out, in terms of their past and what motivated her to do something like that.
All right, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Fugitive sex predator featured as an all-points bulletin on the NANCY GRACE Web site, captured. Forty- four-year-old Kenneth Freeman charged with raping his own young daughter and posting video of the assault on the Internet. Freeman, a Washington state resident, on the U.S. marshal`s most wanted list, captured all the way in Hong Kong, and he`s now facing extradition to the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to court documents, Cynthia Tureman was, in fact, pregnant. She admitted later to police that, on Friday morning, she had the five- to six-pound baby girl in her bathtub. She went on to tell police she allowed the baby to remain underwater for five minutes and saw when its arms stopped moving. She said she cut the umbilical cord with scissors she uses to trim her bangs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace, still trying to digest all of this.
Carol Sowers from the "Arizona Republic," I just want to get one thing straight. Did she go in the stereo store to look for a stereo, or was she picking up her husband who was there?
SOWERS: My understanding was that she was going to pick him up, is he was having an alarm system put in his car. And it was there that, while she was there picking up -- this was 2 1/2 hours after the birth.
LALAMA: And that`s where the afterbirth was found.
Susan in Ohio, question from you?
CALLER: Yes, hi, Pat. You make such a great, interesting show.
LALAMA: Well, thank you.
CALLER: My question is that`s already been answered, but what are they going to do with these other three children of hers? And are they stable enough to take care of these children?
LALAMA: Oh, Gloria Allred, that`s one for you. Attorney Gloria Allred?
ALLRED: Well, I think most probably the father is going to then have the custody of the children, if, in fact, he is the father of those three children. But it may be that they will temporarily be removed from the home until it can be determined whether it`s safe for them to return. I would assume that the father is just going to continue to have custody. And the question is: Are they going to ever be allowed to visit their mother?
LALAMA: Oh, my goodness.
Taylor in Louisiana, a question from you?
CALLER: Yes, Pat. I was just wondering, is there a possibility of her having postpartum depression?
LALAMA: Aha, OK, Dr. Chu? Shu, excuse me.
SHU: I think that`s a really excellent question. And about 15 percent of moms do get postpartum depression. But more likely, this mom was depressed even before the delivery, and this was just a continuation of depression that she probably had during the pregnancy.
LALAMA: Bethany Marshall, do you agree with that?
MARSHALL: ... depression, whether it`s postpartum or any other time, difficulty eating, sleeping, concentrating, that`s what I would want to know. Postpartum psychosis would be loss of boundary between reality and non-reality.
This had a much more purposeful quality to it. Again, filling the bathtub to 12 inches, holding the baby under the water, that requires a great deal of energy. And people who are depressed don`t normally have that much energy.
LALAMA: Defense attorney Michael Cardoza, I keep going back to the fact that everything just seems so, you know, "a," "b," "c" -- first, I`m going to do this, and then I`m going to take -- let`s look at it this way. She allegedly kills the child, and wraps it up in a blanket in her own bathroom, and then, you know, goes to pick up the husband, comes back, and then says, "Oh, I`m going to move the baby to the garage." And then a few hours later, "Oh, now I`m going to take it somewhere else, because it`s in my way." I mean, what do you make of that?
CARDOZA: Well, it`s real simple. I can tell you what a D.A. will make of that, and that`s everything that shows that she was logical and thinking. And I`ll tell you, can`t you just see the district attorney -- I did the job for 14 years. I know one of the arguments I would make in front of the jury, should I be prosecuting, and that would be to get a little doll, hold it under the water, and hold it there for three minutes. Boy, that`d get the jury`s attention.
LALAMA: Oh, my goodness. Very quickly, Renee Rockwell, very quickly, what`s your take on that?
ROCKWELL: Oh, what my take is? And this is a big one, because it`s not just life that she`s looking at. She could face the death penalty for this.
LALAMA: Right, right, right, absolutely.
OK, now to our "Case Alert." Day seven in the search for a 3-year-old missing girl in Fort Fairfield, Maine. Alexandria Winship-Wright last seen at her home, where her mother reportedly leaves her unattended for a brief moment, then returns to find a sliding glass door open and her little girl gone. Search efforts focused on a nearby river where Alexandria`s pink boots were found. She was three feet -- or she is three feet, has blue eyes and blonde hair, last seen wearing a light blue shirt, dark blue pants. If you have any information, please call Ft. Fairfield police, 207- 472-3808.
We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never had anything like this happen before. Bloody paper towel, toilet paper inside that, and, also, what seemed like organs-like material.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace.
I want to speak to Shawn Sanders again from Scottsdale P.D. When is the next time we will hear from or see this woman?
SANDERS: Her next court date is this coming Monday. She will appear in court.
LALAMA: And do you know what kind of mental state she`s in right now, have any clue whether she`s handling it, talking, crying, or just staring into space?
SANDERS: I don`t have any indication of her mental state. If you looked at the mug shot again, I think that mug shot, you know, says plenty.
LALAMA: Oh, it sure does. You`re absolutely right.
Pat Brown, what would you look for in this case?
BROWN: Well, I think there`s going to be a pretty -- it would be an easy case for the prosecution, in the sense that all of that is lined up, as we have been saying. All her methodology for committing this crime was "a," "b," "c," "d," "e."
Of course, the defense can come in there -- and they always play the "poor woman" card, and say that emotions, and the postpartum depression, and she was worried, and they just throw this at the jury. And so many juries will do that. They will simply feel sorry for women and let her off with a lesser sentence.
LALAMA: OK, Pat.
When we come back, Anna Nicole Smith`s baby girl back on U.S. soil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Larry is going to be running up some extreme expenses here. I mean, we`ve been hearing reports that he`s got a tip-top security firm now looking after him and Dannielynn, because she`s potentially a target for kidnapping. So, you know, 24-hour, around-the- clock security forces are pretty expensive to hire, as well.
O`NEIL: He`s selling photographs, quite legitimately. Those pictures that appeared in "OK" magazine I`m sure were for a hefty sum. And I don`t think there`s anything wrong with that. I think he`s certainly entitled to it. And we know that, as it was just reported here, that this plane that he flew in on was from "Access Hollywood." We are aware of an exclusive deal that he has with NBC, but we don`t know how much it was for, but we can guess.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`d like to have some of that. I`m Pat Lalama in tonight for Nancy Grace.
Well, all right, before we get to anything, forget the adults. Is this baby, Dannielynn, not the most beautiful thing you have ever seen? End of story.
David Caplan from "Star" magazine, if I ever go through a custody issue, I`m going to get a network to sponsor me, OK? It seems like, you know how all these sports teams now, it`s like the Tostitos bowl? And now you could like attach a big network to your custody issue. What do you say?
DAVID CAPLAN, "STAR" MAGAZINE: I think that works. I think you need to have the "Access Hollywood" coming home trip. That`s why you do it.
LALAMA: Absolutely, absolutely, with jets, and parties, and the whole thing. What do you make of all this wheeling and dealing with networks and baby in custody issues?
CAPLAN: Well, it`s not that surprising. You know, you see this a lot with news stories, where certain news outlets essentially attach themselves to the story. And, basically, the reason they`re doing it is because it gives them exclusivity. And we`re clearly seeing this with the NBC properties.
"Access Hollywood" has the exclusives with Larry Birkhead. So that way they`re getting access to breaking the stories. And the interesting thing about this deal, which is being reportedly estimated at about between $1 million and $1.4 million, is that it`s not limited to just "Access Hollywood," but also sort of sister NBC properties, including the Bravo network.
LALAMA: Oh, my goodness. Yes, thanks to cable, now they`ve got to split it all up. It`s a lot harder, isn`t it?
LALAMA: Gloria Allred, great attorney and child advocate, does the money stuff stink? Does it taint the whole process? Does it make people lose credibility?
ALLRED: I don`t think so. I mean, he is the father. He can decide what`s best for his baby. And it is certainly going to help the lifestyle of the baby and the child, as the child gets older, if he has the money to support her and to give her a better lifestyle.
So I don`t really have any problem with that, as long as he is a good father. And it appears that he is going to be a great, loving father, and he wants his baby. He`s fought for this baby. I think he`s going to take care of this baby, and I wish her the best and all the money that he can get for her.
LALAMA: Absolutely. Well, my understanding is that the deal he made with NBC, which is around $1 million, was to pay for his lawyer fees. And I have it on good authority that, when Debra Opri, his first attorney, took the case, she said, "Look, Larry, I`ve got to get paid for all this. I`m going to be going back and forth, so I`m going to get you a good media deal."
I have no problem with that. Like you, Gloria, I say, if you can feed the baby and put some good shoes on your feet, why not? The "OK" deal, we`re told, he`s putting that money in a fund just for Dannielynn.
Bethany Marshall, when you grow up in this kind of environment, what`s in store for this little baby girl? And how do we keep her sane, for heaven`s sakes?
MARSHALL: Well, I think what`s difficult is that she`s had to reassign attachment a number of times, I mean, from the mother. She had two caretakers, now, when she was with the mom in the Bahamas. Now she`s going to have a third, and she`s going to have Larry Birkhead. So that`s a lot of times that she has to give up one attachment and then go to another.
What makes me feel good about this situation, the fact that Larry Birkhead is taking these deals, means that he wants to provide for his daughter. I mean, hey, she needs to go to college, have a lifestyle. I mean, hopefully she won`t have to pay college tuition loans.
And the fact that he`s in Kentucky with his family means he`s willing to build what I call a caretaker support network, where there are people to back her up and make her feel like she has family around. She certainly deserves that.
LALAMA: You know what`s really weird about all this is that he went back to Louisville, where he`s from, and he`s going this Friday to a Kentucky Derby pre-party, the same party where he met Anna Nicole Smith a few years ago. I call that going back to the scene of the crime, in a way. Let`s hope it all works out for the best.
Let`s look at some video right now. What you`re watching is exclusive video from "Access Hollywood." For more on Larry and Dannielynn`s return to the U.S., tune into "Access Hollywood" tonight.
All right, you know, I have a question about the whole money deal. Michael Cardoza, do you have an issue with money, from a defense attorney`s standpoint, knowing there`s going to be all these people fighting? You know, how does that play for you, the whole money issue?
CARDOZA: Well, certainly, if there wasn`t a lot of money involved here, a lot of the actors involved in this wouldn`t be around. I mean, Virgie wouldn`t be anywhere in the country. She`d be leaving. So, you know, is money a big deal here? Absolutely.
But I`ve got to tell you, I like Larry Birkhead. I like what he`s doing. He looks like he`s going to be a good dad. He seems to be doing the right thing. And, shock, shock, I sort of agree with Gloria on this one.
But caveat: Watch out what these networks start paying for. I mean, I understand it from their perspective. I certainly understand it from Larry`s perspective. But watch out what stories you buy, because it could start to affect our judicial system. And if it does, you watch the courts start stepping in, too, with the Supreme Court, and start stopping things like this.
LALAMA: Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, does the money stink, as far as you`re concerned? Does it just make everybody just tainted and horrifying?
ROCKWELL: There`s no money to me that stinks. I`m just happy...
LALAMA: It has no smell.
ROCKWELL: ... that he`s going to get -- he`s being smart, because you know what? He`s the man of the hour. And if he can get another $4 million for another photo-op, he should get it and put it in the bank for his daughter.
LALAMA: Well, wait a minute. How about flying into Kentucky in a private plane? I mean, for heaven`s sakes.
ROCKWELL: No, that`s good for him. He`s a hero. He`s the rock star. And you know what? He waited long enough for this moment, and this is his moment. And I hope he goes to the Kentucky Derby and puts his money on the winning horse.
LALAMA: Pat Brown, is there a crime in money?
BROWN: I`m listening to all this, Pat. It kind of makes me want to throw up. I mean, that`s the way I feel.
Yes, I think what happened is, Birkhead lost the cash cow, which was Anna Nicole. Now he`s got a cash calf. I mean, is this going to keep that calf around and milk it for all it`s worth? And I think that`s horrible. If he really loved this child, he`d get her out of the limelight and be a real daddy, provide a nice little home for her. She doesn`t need millions and millions and millions of dollars to grow up to be OK. Hey, I didn`t have it, and, look, here I am, and I`m just fine. All right? So I think it`s appalling. And so I`m not with anybody on this one.
LALAMA: Well, hey, the green people probably aren`t happy with this, either, you know, the whole private plane thing.
Gloria Allred, we know the big picture here has to do -- and we can`t deny it -- with the whole Marshall case. Now, my understanding about the big money case that`s pending -- and you tell me if I`m wrong -- the appeals court said, in California, "This isn`t our jurisdiction, so go away." They took it to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said, "Oh, yes, it is. Go back and listen to the merits of the Marshall case to see what happens." Do I have that right?
ALLRED: Yes. And so, you know, for those who speculate that Larry`s going to get a fortune, or that the child will, the answer is, we don`t know what`s going to happen. I think there are going to be years and years of litigation ahead regarding what Anna Nicole was trying to get from the Marshall estate and, therefore, now what her estate is going to try to get from the Marshall estate. And it`s one estate versus the other. And we don`t know whether she`ll or her estate will get 10 cents from it or $10 million or $100 million or anything.
ALLRED: We`ll have to wait and see.
LALAMA: David Caplan from "Star," do you think Howard Stern, Howard K. Stern, still has a horse in this race, excuse the analogy to the Kentucky Derby? I mean, do you think he`s still going to get in there and say, "Wait a minute. I was with her through all of this, and I did this, and I did that. I`m entitled"? And does he have a case? And have you heard that he`s even going to try?
CAPLAN: Yes, I mean, definitely. He`s definitely going to remain a part of this whole sort of saga, because, again, Larry is essentially sort of the parental figure here. And, you know, and what we`ve been hearing, actually, you know, in the weeks preceding Dannielynn`s arrival in Kentucky is that, you know, Howard K. Stern really was going to be involved in sort of the money management of this.
He was close to Anna Nicole in dealing with the will and, you know, and this is his strong point. He was very well-versed in Anna Nicole`s financial affairs. He was involved when she declared bankruptcy in 2000. So he really is the guy. And it`s not a bad thing, because you do want somebody who`s well-aware of her financial history and all the ins and outs. That`s probably not Larry`s forte in this case.
LALAMA: Well, you know, in covering this case myself, I have it on good authority that, you know, one of the big problems that eventually concerned Debra Opri so much is that she felt that Howard K. Stern kept a psychological influence over Larry and made a lot of promises to him.
Bethany, could that happened behind closed doors, very quickly?
MARSHALL: You know what? I wondered about that myself, because he seemed to have a svengali-type influence on Anna Nicole Smith. And I wondered if Larry Birkhead was swayed, as well. And maybe it was Howard Stern who hooked him up with all these deals, as well, and introduced him to the world of media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think he`s bitter as much as he is disappointed. He expected that level of cooperation. He expected to have Virgie to come up to Kentucky and spend time with Dannielynn, and maybe, you know, he and Danni would go down to Texas in the future and spend some time down there. And I think he`s more disappointed than anything.
And, now, you know, I know for a fact that Virgie wants, once Danni steps on this soil, after the custody hearing in June, if she doesn`t win there, Virgie has a legal plan here to sue Larry right away and try to start for custody in the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. And what a beautiful picture, seeing that handsome Larry Birkhead kissing his beautiful baby. I love it all.
I want to ask Dave Caplan from "Star" magazine, you know, Larry`s a young guy. And he`s a paparazzo in a very tough town, as we know. Will he be able to be a full-time dad? I know they already have a nanny. What do you take -- what do you make of this, for the future of him being a full- time dad?
CAPLAN: I think he`ll have difficulty juggling if he wants to have a career as a photographer in Los Angeles with being a full-time dad. But, you know, he has a nanny already who, you know, came with him from the Louisville airport to his friend`s house. So I think he`ll be able to juggle having a career and being a dad, because we`ve seen, just in the last day, all of his family coming out and really helping him with parenting. So I think he`ll be OK, and he`ll be able to do both.
LALAMA: Well, if he invests his network money wisely, he may not have to work, right? I mean, you never know.
CAPLAN: The network money, though, for now is going to Debra Opri, this NBC money. That`s what`s being reported.
LALAMA: Right, right.
CARLSON: And the "OK" money is also going to a trust fund. So he`s not that wealthy at this immediate moment. We`ll have to see.
LALAMA: Well, you know what? As long as they got the love there, that`s all I`m thinking about.
Gloria Allred, let`s talk about Virgie. You know, she`s taken a lot of heat lately. People say she`s just a thorn in everybody`s side. And I don`t know whether she was a bad mom or not, but I do know that she`s a grand parent and that there is blood. And it seems that she`s got an argument somewhere in here, does she not?
ALLRED: Well, I mean, I think she would have been better off trying to get some visitation rather than seeking custody, because, I mean, he is the biological father. And there`s no reason to think that he`s not going after the best interests of this child. There`s no reason to think that he`s not fit to be a parent to little Dannielynn.
So I think she would have been better off to just try to talk with him and say that she`d like to be able to visit and leave it at that. But, instead, what appears to be full-scale warfare, I think it`s just something that probably alienates Larry, and understandably so, because then he`s got to spend a lot of time and money fighting her. That money could go to Dannielynn.
I don`t know who wins in this. Maybe she thinks that she`s going to make money from selling the story of her battle. I don`t know what she`s thinking, but I hope that she`s getting the advice that she should just try to work something out as an agreement and have some agreement to be able to visit with the child and have the child visit with her.
Renee Rockwell, there`s no reason why she can`t bring the argument to California, right?
ROCKWELL: Well, you know what? Custody, visitation, anything that deals with a child, it`s never over. It`s never a closed issue. But Larry`s such a stand-up guy...
LALAMA: Yes, just ask Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger.
ROCKWELL: Exactly. That`s next over. And Larry`s such a stand-up guy, I think, if she came with hat in hand and said, "Look, the game`s off. I just want to be granny," I think he`d let her in.
LALAMA: Michael, very quickly, what do you say with that?
CARDOZA: I completely agree with that. I think if she were more reasonable, they`d absolutely let her in. This is all about money for Virgie. I`m telling you, she probably has some contract with somebody. She`s going to sell the rights. It`s all about money. She could care less about grandmothering this little girl.
LALAMA: Whoa, OK. Well, that`s pretty firm.
All right, tonight, a special guest joins us live, speaking out on his take on the global warming debate, or lack thereof. OK, I said that, not you. Headline Prime`s Glenn Beck, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The problem is, this thin layer of atmosphere is being thickened by all of the global warming pollution that`s being put up there. And what that does is it thickens this layer of atmosphere, more of the outgoing infrared is trapped. And so the atmosphere heats up worldwide. That`s global warming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Hey, Glenn, my ked tells me the other day that teachers say that the big oil companies are paying environmentalists to say that there is no global warming. What am I supposed to do? Help us out there.
GLENN BECK, HOST: You know what? I tell you, Pat, the reason why that I`m doing this special tonight is, I`ve had so many people call me up, parents, and say, "My kids are being indoctrinated."
LALAMA: Oh, unbelievable!
BECK: They are having to make a choice at a very young age in math class, and in English, in art class, of having to watch this, and then having to decide, if they disagree with it, are they willing to accept a lower grade?
BECK: And so we wanted to do a special that was on the climate of fear on, let`s just -- could we please be able to talk about this as adults, and say, "OK, wait a minute, is global warming real? Is it caused by man? And can we cure it?"
LALAMA: Hey, another noted professor came out yesterday in one of the big papers and said, "You know, yes, we should all be responsible, but that, in seven years, there will be another cooling trend." I go to the UCLA movie store to pick up some movies, and I said to the kid, "What do you recommend?" He goes, "An Inconvenient Truth." and when I said, "No," he goes, "Oh, you must drive an SUV." I mean, it`s like, "Oh, my gosh, I need combat pay to work out here in L.A." Why are people buying it willy- nilly?
BECK: I think it`s really strange. I think you could put Al Gore into a priest collar, because it is now the church. It has gone from science to dogma.
BECK: And I got into trouble saying this earlier today on my radio program, but it`s the way I feel: It is the same kind of thing that people did in the 1920s and `30s with eugenics. You take some scientists, and then you silence all of the dissenting voices, and then you make it into a propaganda film, and you keep feeding it to people, through all of your media, and then you introduce it in, not just science class, but art class and English class. And before you know it, there is no dissent on it.
LALAMA: But, you know, are you getting in at all to the psychology of it? I mean, is it sort of a liberal self-loathing? And, of course, I`m not accusing all liberals of being self-loathing. But it seems that we have to hate ourselves so much for being human, we Americans, that here`s another thing to, like, self-flagellate over, like, "Oh, we`re ruining our Earth."
BECK: You know, Pat? I think it`s partly that, but I also think that it`s a good sign with America. It`s yet another sign of our compassion. Nobody wants to hurt the Earth. Everybody wants green -- you know, good, clean water, and good, clean air, and a green Earth.
And so we say to ourselves, "You know, I know we can do better in gas mileage. You know, I don`t want to throw garbage out. I don`t want to throw garbage in the sky." And so what we do is we say, "Well, you know, I feel a little guilty, and maybe we are causing this, so I`ll just do what I have to do."
LALAMA: Well, I`m with you, and I`m so glad you`re doing this. And I`ll make sure my whole family watches. And I might call their teachers, too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORE: Isn`t there a disagreement among scientists about whether the problem is real or not? Actually, not really.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. Now more with Headline Prime`s Glenn Beck.
So, Glenn, is global warming real? It may be, right?
BECK: You know, here`s my personal stance on global warming. It`s clear that the globe is warming. It`s up .7 degrees Celsius in the last 100 years. However, we`ve gone from global warming to global cooling to global warming. It seems to be a 30-year trend.
Maybe this is -- you know, maybe we`re going to go into an extreme warming period or an extreme cooling period. That is what happens. The real question is: Are we causing it? And can we stop it?
The Kyoto Treaty, we are going to spend billions and billions of dollars, and we`re not going to stop global warming. They say, if it`s fully implemented, and everything, every piece of science is accurate, it will delay global warming another three years in the next 100 years. That doesn`t seem like a smart investment.
LALAMA: Right. Hey, what do you make of carbon offsets? Is that bogus? It`s kind of the new catch phrase? "I`m changing my light bulbs."
BECK: You know, Pat, what really kills me is there are so many similarities to the Dark Ages and the church. I swear to you, first of all, Al Gore is the high priest. You cannot question him. You cannot question the facts.
LALAMA: I know.
BECK: They are saying that any scientist that disagrees with it is a heretic. He`s crazy.
BECK: And, by the way, you can come to me and buy a special dispensation. You can buy forgiveness.
LALAMA: Hey, I have to wear a bulletproof vest in this town, so you know what it`s like, and we`ll be watching.
BECK: Oh, I know.
LALAMA: OK, Glenn.
BECK: Thanks a lot.
LALAMA: All right, tonight, we remember Army Sergeant Joshua Schmit, just 26, Willmar, Minnesota, killed in Iraq. Enlisting straight from high school, Schmit awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. He loved cooking, especially German meals, and dreamed of going to culinary arts school. He leaves behind his parents, Kim and Greg, and his grieving widow Andrea. Joshua Schmit, American hero.
Thank you to all our guests and to you at home for joining us tonight. I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. Thanks, Nance, for the opportunity. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Have a wonderful, wonderful evening.