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PAULA ZAHN NOW

Immigration Bill: Good or Bad For America?; Interview With Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo; Is Hillary Clinton a Hard-Core Liberal?

Aired May 17, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us.
Out in the open tonight: a deal on one of the toughest issues of our time. Will the new agreement on immigration reform secure our borders? And will it let millions of illegal immigrants stay in this country?

Also out in the open: why an American citizen says he gets stopped at the U.S.-Canada border again and again and again. And you're not going to believe how much money all those presidential candidates have got stashed away. How can they possibly relate to average Americans? Their collective worth is almost nearing $1 billion.

We are starting with tonight's developing story. It could turn into one of the most important stories of the year. But that's only if the bipartisan immigration deal announced just a few hours ago actually gets approved. It tries to solve some of the problems we have been bringing out in the open for more than a year now, like the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in this country and borders that are so unprotected, it's downright scary.

Can they really fix all that and more?

Let's go right to congressional correspondent Dana Bash. She's got the very latest for us tonight.

Hi, Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Paula.

Well, it certainly was an impressive show of bipartisanship here on the Hill today, but immigration politics, as you well know, are about as volatile and emotional as they come. And the deal is already facing blistering criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): Brokering the deal was hard enough, months of intense closed-door talks. But selling it will be a whole lot harder, so, even in the victory lap, the sales pitch to the skeptical left...

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: There's broad consensus that 12 million undocumented people who are here should be offered the chance to learn their legalization.

BASH: ... and even more skeptical right.

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE RANKING MEMBER: It is not amnesty. This will restore the rule of law. Without legislation, we will have anarchy.

BASH: Under the complex bipartisan plan, the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. would be granted a visa to stay legally. They would also have to pay $5,000 in fines. Qualifying for citizenship would take at least eight years. The proposal also allows at least 400,000 temporary workers each year to fill jobs in the service and agriculture industries.

SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: To my constituents who said, do something about this problem, I can say, I have tried my best to craft a bill that won't repeat the mistakes of the past.

BASH: In the hopes of placating angry conservatives, GOP negotiators insisted no temporary workers can enter the U.S. and no illegal immigrant can become a citizen until the border is fortified, including 18,000 Border Patrol agents and 370 miles of fencing along the U.S.-Mexico border.

Senator and presidential candidate John McCain has enormous stakes in the volatile politics of immigration.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We must meet certain enforcement and security triggers that will let everyone know that we are serious about enforcing our laws, and that we're not going to repeat the 1986 amnesty.

BASH: As he played up better border security, a host of conservative critics labeled it amnesty, vowed to block it, and said McCain and other supporters would pay a price.

REP. BRIAN BILBRAY (R), CALIFORNIA: You're going to see a lot of people, Democrats and Republicans, be very upset at every one of the senators who think they put together a great compromise, when, basically, it's going to be seen as a sellout.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So, Dana, with that volume of debate, where is it likely this bill is really going to go?

BASH: Well, here's how it's going to work, at least in the short term, Paula.

It's going to go to the floor of the Senate next week. There, it's going to face a bruising battle. If it passes the Senate, then it goes to the House. Now, you would think, because Democrats now run the House, it would have sort of an easy go of it there. But it -- it probably won't. It could face huge hurdles there, because, you remember, in the last election, nearly every Democrat running got pummeled by Republicans on this very issue, on immigration. So, with the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, has told the White House, Paula, is that she's not going to bring this issue to the floor unless the president himself can deliver at least 70 votes. And that might not be very easy.

ZAHN: Dana Bash, thanks for explaining it all to us.

BASH: Thank you.

ZAHN: It is one complicated piece of legislation. And this afternoon's splashy announcement on Capitol Hill was only the beginning.

Not long after it, the White House -- at the White House, President Bush made sure his support for the immigration deal was out in the open.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The agreement reached today is one that will help enforce our borders, but, equally importantly, it will treat people with respect. This is a bill where people who live here in our country will be treated without amnesty, but without animosity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Well, opponents of this Senate immigration deal aren't wasting any time either.

Republican Congressman and presidential candidate Tom Tancredo's Web site almost immediately labeled the deal as instant amnesty, regardless of what the president had to say.

Congressman Tom Tancredo joins us now.

Thank you so much for being with us tonight.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R-CO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a pleasure, Paula.

ZAHN: All right.

Let's talk about some of the specifics of this bill. The number of border agents are doubled. You have the border fencing being strengthened...

TANCREDO: Well, no. No, it goes...

ZAHN: ... according to the folks who supported this, that you have...

TANCREDO: They're wrong.

ZAHN: ... increased sanctions on employers who hire illegals, that these workers will have to learn English, and they will have a background check before they're ever allowed to stay in this country legally.

What -- what could you possibly be objected to with all that?

TANCREDO: Well, of course, most of what you have described is just -- you know, there's an old saying around here about putting lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. This is the lipstick for it.

First of all, we have got about 14,000 Border Patrol. This goes to 18,000. That's not doubling anything. We have actually appropriated for far more than that, which they have never gone to. And -- and any penalty that you -- that you put into this bill is really only as good as you're willingness to actually enforce it.

And what we -- for instance, there's another aspect of this thing. It's -- there's a $5,000 fee, but the fee can be waived. There are all kinds of parts of this bill. It's a very complicated bill, so -- I mean, and a lot of parts to it.

ZAHN: All right.

TANCREDO: But what I'm telling you is this. Here's the bottom line, Paula, that, if you are in this country illegally today, this moment, you will be able to stay under this bill. You will be able to go...

ZAHN: Well, that is not necessarily true, when you listen to even some of your...

TANCREDO: Paula, it is absolutely...

ZAHN: ... Republican colleagues say you have to clear all these hurdles before you would ever be able to stay here legally.

TANCREDO: Paula...

ZAHN: You have got to go back to your country twice...

(CROSSTALK)

TANCREDO: No, ma'am.

ZAHN: ... over a period of time. I didn't write the legislation. They did. But...

TANCREDO: Right.

I'm telling you what is in the bill. And in the bill is this. If you are here illegally, right now, you can go and get a -- a -- it's a -- they call it a temporary card. But you can stay. And you can stay for, essentially, as long as you want. There will be some...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: But there are different phases of that.

TANCREDO: Yes, but... ZAHN: You know, there's a Y card and a Z card. But let me -- let me have you react to something...

TANCREDO: But you can stay.

(CROSSTALK)

TANCREDO: What does that -- what does that mean to you? Does it -- does it not mean to you and anybody listening here, if you can stay here if you're illegally here, and you simply have to go get and card after this bill passes, is that not amnesty?

Now, doggone it, why should be try to -- to try and obfuscate this? It is amnesty. And, if they want it, just say it. They're just afraid of the word. But they're not afraid of actually doing it.

ZAHN: Let me play for you something that Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff had to say about some of the challenges his department faces.

Let's listen...

(CROSSTALK)

TANCREDO: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Right now, I have got my Border Patrol agents and my immigration agents chasing maids and landscapers. I want them to focus on drug dealers and terrorists.

It seems to me, if I can get the maids and the landscapers into a regulated system, and focus my law enforcement on the terrorists and the drug dealers, that's how I get a safe border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Wouldn't that make our country safer?

TANCREDO: Here's what he could do -- here's what he could accomplish, if he wanted to.

ZAHN: Do you deny everything he's saying, though, there?

TANCREDO: I'm denying that he -- he has a better way of doing it. He can simply go after the employers. It's against the law to hire people, maids and chambermaids.

ZAHN: Well, that's what the bill says it will do.

(CROSSTALK)

TANCREDO: Well, then, he can do it. He doesn't have to have a bill. It's the law today. Do you see this? They simply don't enforce it. There's no bill necessary to go after employers. It is the law. You cannot hire illegal aliens today. They won't enforce it.

What makes you think, or anybody, that they would -- that they would do so after you pass a bill? What they want is the amnesty part. All the rest of this is window dressing and happy talk.

ZAHN: All right. Let me ask you one last question...

TANCREDO: OK.

ZAHN: ... on the agricultural front.

One of the points that is being made is that there is a shortage of workers. Sixty percent of the work force in agriculture is made up of illegals. There are shortages, to the point of -- of workers where strawberries and blueberries are rotting in the field, because the Americans you say whose jobs are being taken by the illegals don't want these jobs.

TANCREDO: There is no cap on -- on H2A visas today.

Again, maybe something that people don't know, H2A is an agricultural worker. There's no cap. You could bring in 10 million of them. Of course, what you have to do is pay them what's called a -- well, it's higher than the minimum wage and provide some sort of housing. And, so, therefore, as long as you can get illegal aliens to do it, rather than go the right way, they -- they go the illegal way.

That's the problem. And it will always be the problem if you don't enforce the law. If you enforce it, they go through the process. They could bring in today as many workers as they want to. Under H2A visas, there are no limits.

Paula, the whole issue is whether or not we are going to enforce laws. We do not need another law. We just need a...

ZAHN: OK.

TANCREDO: ... president who is willing to actually enforce it. We do not have that.

ZAHN: All right.

TANCREDO: And it's a shame. It's a shame. It's...

ZAHN: I -- I, unfortunately, have got to move on.

TANCREDO: It's terrible.

ZAHN: Congressman Tom Tancredo...

TANCREDO: OK.

ZAHN: ... thanks so much for joining us. TANCREDO: Thank you.

ZAHN: We're going to straight to our "Out in the Open" panel now to debate this, Darrell Ankarlo, host of a radio talk show on KTAR-FM in Phoenix, Arizona; also with me, Democratic strategists Julie Roginsky and Kiki McLean.

ZAHN: So, Julie, you have just heard what the congressman had to say: You don't need a bill like this. You already have laws on the book that aren't being enforced. All this bill is, it is, in his words, lipstick on a pig.

JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well...

(LAUGHTER)

ROGINSKY: ... I don't know agree with him.

Look, nobody is going to be thrilled with this bill, because it's not perfect for any side. But I agree with Dianne Feinstein. We can't let the enemy of the good be the perfect to the good.

Essentially, look, we cannot continue to jail, as some people like Tom Tancredo would advocate, 12 million people. It's simply impractical. It's possible to do.

And, essentially, what Tom Tancredo and other opponents of this bill would do is jail them, make sure that they -- you know, our -- our jails are overflowing as it is. How are we possibly going to round up these people? I would rather these people, as Senator Kennedy said, come out into the sunlight. They deserve to come out into the sunlight. We deserve to know who they are.

Our country will be safer if we know who is here, even if they're here illegally. And, if that's -- if Congressman Tancredo and others want people to continue skulking around, without us having a handle exactly on who is here, I would actually argue that our country is less safe today because of that.

ZAHN: Well, that's the argument, Darrell, that the -- Secretary Chertoff was making, that -- that his border agents are spending so many -- so much time chasing down maids and landscapers, that they're not focusing their energies on potential terrorists.

DARRELL ANKARLO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Mexico doesn't care. We have got to start with the beginning of this problem, Paula. Mexico doesn't care.

They're sending us their infirm. They're sending us their poverty-stricken. They're sending us their people that they don't want. Until we do something to take action against Mexico and say belly up to the bar, I don't care if we have 50,000 guys on the border. We're not going to be able to get anything done.

This piece that was put together today, it's 380 pages, Paula; 380 pages, drawn up by lawyers tells me that maybe we have got some loopholes in there.

ZAHN: Well, let's talk a little bit about that, Kiki -- Congressman Tom Tancredo denying that this bill aims to double the number of border security patrol folks along the border, that it -- it's not really going to strengthen the fence at all.

Your reaction to that?

KIKI MCLEAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, first of all, Congressman Tancredo is an ideologue. And ideologues are great fun at cocktail parties, but they don't -- they don't make great leaders.

And what we had today was a real step forward for something palpable and real to happen with bipartisan support. Look, Paula, I grew up in South Texas. I have grown up with the border issue around me my whole life.

And what you have is a start today. There is a lot of work to be done on the Senate floor, but I think Republicans finally understand they cannot ignore this issue. They cannot stand up their own president on this one.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Why not just enforce the laws that are already on the books?

MCLEAN: Well, there's a realistic manpower issue here.

And, whether it's maids and landscapers, as Michael Chertoff said, or it's about the drug dealers and the terrorists, it -- it doesn't matter. Where do you want them to enforce it, and when do you want to enforce it? Now.

I think one of the interesting things here is that -- to know that there are things that are important to be worked out in this legislation. Democrats care about family reunification. The fines are awfully high. Is that realistic? Is that a -- is that a realistic path to -- to getting legal, to being a -- a qualifying and contributing member of our society?

But this is a huge start, especially for a Republican president...

(CROSSTALK)

ANKARLO: Hey, can I jump in here, Paula, for just a second?

ZAHN: Yes, real quickly, Darrell.

ANKARLO: Yes.

It's -- it's a -- again, it is at least a starting point. There's no question. But these are the same people who came here illegally. These are the same people who get Social Security cards for $50 in a back alley. They have broken the rules all the -- the way for these last 30 years. Something tells me that, when we put this into gear, Paula, they're just going to continue to break the rules again and again and again.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: And that's what a lot of people are saying.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: All you're doing is encouraging people to break the law...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: ... and that these people are...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: ... rewarded.

ROGINSKY: Let me just say this. You're not, because, essentially, practically, as Kiki pointed out, you're not going to round up and lock up 12 million people. It's just impractical to do. What this bill says...

ANKARLO: Agree. Agree.

ROGINSKY: What this bill says -- let me finish for a second -- as this bill says, if you come here after January of this year, all bets are off.

But, for the people that are here already, they don't need to be encouraged. They're here already.

ANKARLO: We said that in '85, guys.

ROGINSKY: You're not going to lock them up. You're not going to lock them up.

ZAHN: But -- but why -- why allow them...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Kiki, why allow them to jump the list, in -- in front of thousands...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: ... and thousands of people...

MCLEAN: You know what?

ZAHN: ... who have been waiting for years and years...

MCLEAN: They're not... ZAHN: ... to come into this country legally?

MCLEAN: They're not allowed to jump the list. It's dealing with the reality.

My question to the ideologues, to Congressman Tancredo, to the guest on the program tonight, what is your alternative? I never hear them offer an alternative.

ZAHN: His alternative was...

ANKARLO: I just gave you the alternative.

ZAHN: ... to enforce the laws you have got.

MCLEAN: What is it?

ANKARLO: Wait, wait, wait. The alternative is to...

ZAHN: Darrell, you give a final thought.

ANKARLO: ... to place major sanctions against Mexico right now.

I went over the border. I lived over there for several days. I broke into America illegally, with no papers at all.

MCLEAN: But what are you going to with the 12 million...

ANKARLO: It took me six seconds, Paula.

MCLEAN: Wait.

What are you going to do with the 12 million people who are already here, rent every school bus in America and drive them back across the border? Let's be realistic.

ANKARLO: No, no, no, no. As I -- as I said at the outset -- as I said at the outset, this is absolutely a starting place. This is not anywhere near conclusion.

I think we need to continue to hammer this issue. We're going to get killed on this, just as we have for the last 30 years.

ZAHN: All right, team...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: ... I have got to leave it there.

Kiki, Darrell, Julie, thank you.

MCLEAN: Thank you.

ZAHN: You will be back for more debate. Stay right there -- a lot more to talk about tonight. There's another border issue I want to bring out in the open tonight. You're not going to believe how many times one American citizen says he's been detained when he comes in from Canada.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IBRAHIM "ABE" DABDOUB, RESIDENT OF OHIO: It's 17 straight times. I mean, if I was a threat, why do they keep releasing me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: So, why do U.S. border agents keep stopping him? Find out more in just a minute.

Also: a millionaires club. How can any of the presidential candidates claim to represent average Americans? Wait until you see how many of them are on that list.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The immigration reform deal announced today is designed to solve the crisis of over 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States, but it's not going to solve the problem of the man you're about to meet.

He says he is absolutely trapped in the system, and the system won't give him a clue how to get out of it. He's an American citizen with family in Canada. And, every time he comes back after visiting them, U.S. border agents stop him every time. And they won't tell him why.

Homeland Security correspondent Jeanne Meserve brings us his story out in the open tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even though he became a U.S. citizen just last year, Abe Dabdoub says he's an American as the next guy. But this manager at a manufacturing plant, who lives and works in Ohio, has to try to prove it over and over and over again whenever he comes back home.

IBRAHIM "ABE" DABDOUB, RESIDENT OF OHIO: I don't know why anyone would consider me, you know, dangerous or, you know, wanting to do harm to this country.

MESERVE: Dabdoub is Palestinian, born in Saudi Arabia, raised in Canada with relatives there he visits a couple of times a month.

DABDOUB: I put some detail here, if I was handcuffed, searched, fingerprinted, detained in the back room.

MESERVE: Since last August, he and his wife, separately or together, have returned from Canada 17 times, and he says that, each of those 17 times, they have been detained.

DABDOUB: I would be OK if, just to make everyone feel at ease, who I am and the way I look, I was questioned, you know, an extra few minutes, or detained once just to make sure that I was not going to do any harm to the country. But it's 17 straight times. I mean, if I was a threat, why do they keep releasing me?

MESERVE: Why stop him again and again?

Dabdoub has asked, but has gotten no answers. It's become so predictable that he sometimes calls ahead to let border officials know he's coming. They know him well enough that they even gave his two children Easter baskets, a nice gesture, Dabdoub says, though the kids are Muslim.

We followed Abe Dabdoub across the Ambassador Bridge from Windsor, Ontario, to Detroit, where all the stops have happened. At the U.S. checkpoint, sure enough, he is taken out of his car for questioning. We meet up with him after his release.

DABDOUB: It's par for the course.

MESERVE (on camera): How long?

DABDOUB: Forty-five minutes.

MESERVE (voice-over): A second time, I go with him. He's detained again, this time for about 50 minutes.

Dabdoub insists that he is not a terrorist.

(on camera): Anybody in your family have any ties that might raise alarm bells?

DABDOUB: No.

(CROSSTALK)

MESERVE: Any of your acquaintances have ties that might raise alarm bells?

DABDOUB: None.

MESERVE: Do you go to places that you think might raise alarm bells?

DABDOUB: Well, if you go to -- if you mean going to the Toledo Mud Hens with my kids, maybe that's an issue. I don't know.

MESERVE (voice-over): The Department of Homeland Security will not talk about Abe Dabdoub, but one official says it is not a coincidence if somebody is stopped every time he enters the country.

And a spokesman for the department says -- quote -- "The reality is that we live in a time when there are terrorists who want to come into our country and kill us." The department will not tell Dabdoub or us if he is perceived as a threat. But, if he is, and that explains his repeated detentions, just look at what happens when he and I cross the border at the Detroit Windsor Tunnel, less than five miles from the Ambassador Bridge, where he gets stopped each and every time.

DABDOUB: I don't think this is going to be 45 minutes. I'm expecting two to four hours.

MESERVE: But, no, this time, he sails through immigration in less than a minute.

DABDOUB: I got through. I have no idea why. And don't they have to same system that they're looking at? So, am I on some sort of watch list, and I'm a threat on one border, but, at another border entry point, I'm not a threat?

MESERVE: Homeland Security refuses to comment on the inconsistency and the questions it raises about why one man is stopped and why he isn't.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, on the U.S.-Canadian border.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we're going to change our focus next to the presidential race. It's already at full boil. And Democratic front- runner Hillary Clinton is getting scalded in a new book by Republican activist Bay Buchanan. So, what's wrong with the senator from New York? Or is this just a hatchet job on Bay Buchanan's part?

We will ask her -- coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Tonight, the polls have Senator Hillary Clinton well ahead of her rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination. But one conservative is already looking ahead to the general election and launching a book-length attack on Senator Clinton.

The author is Bay Buchana -- "chanan," that is -- a former CNN political analyst who's now advising Republican Tom Tancredo's presidential campaign.

In "The Extreme Makeover of Hillary Rodham Clinton," Buchanan claims that Clinton is faking a move to the political middle ground, and really is -- quote -- "a dedicated, unapologetic liberal," a phrase calculated to make being liberal sound like something you have got to apologize for.

(LAUGHTER)

ZAHN: Buchanan also says Clinton cannot be trusted with the most powerful office in the world, and says that Clinton can -- quote -- "lie, cheat, steal, and destroy the lives of innocent people."

Afraid of Hillary Clinton yet? Bay Buchanan sounds like she is.

And she joins me now.

Is she our next president, Bay?

(LAUGHTER)

BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CAUSE: I don't think so. I certainly hope not. That's for certain, Paula.

I think she would be -- she would not be the right person for this nation, especially when we're in a time of war. She doesn't have the character. And there's a purpose, there's a reason for the makeover. She knows, if the American people, the voters in this country really knew who she was, what she was about, and where she took this country, she would know she would never get that office. And, so, should not have it.

ZAHN: You are being criticized for basically doing a hatchet job with Hillary Clinton with this book, that you basically recycled a bunch of old allegations, that there is no original reporting here. And, in fact, one reporter told one of our panelists tonight that you had taken what he had written and completely taken it out of context.

BUCHANAN: Well, you know...

ZAHN: Why no original reporting?

BUCHANAN: Well, first of all, there is.

One aspect is, when I -- I read Hillary's book very carefully. And, as I got into it -- and -- and she's -- have -- a similar background that I do. And I started reading it, just objectively, to kind of see what she -- what her life is about and how she tells it.

This lady is extremely insecure. It became very clear to me. And I started to look at it, and I thought, now, this is unusual. I have never heard this about her. So, I did. I started reading more. And it becomes very apparent.

ZAHN: So, what, you became a psychologist while you were writing this book?

BUCHANAN: No, no. I -- no, no, no. I have some experience in life. And insecurity is one of those things that you can pretty well detect.

But the key is, I use her words, Paula. I use her words to make this case. I lay it all out. And I believe it's a compelling case. This is a fresh look at Hillary. And, also, it explains who she is. It explains this attitude, this sense of superiority, this arrogance that she has, the way she treats people.

This is key. And, in order to establish there was a makeover, I have to establish who she is. That's why I established who she was when she become senator of the United States. And I used everything that I could find that would help explain to the American people what the character of this woman is.

ZAHN: If her character is as bad as you say it is, why would a well-respected senator like Senator John Warner or someone like Senator Lindsey Graham praise her for her ability to walk across the aisle and...

BUCHANAN: Sure.

ZAHN: ... create bipartisan support on some critical issues facing this country?

BUCHANAN: Well, first of all, she has -- the makeover started when she became a senator. And this is an effort to show this is all done, so that she can present herself as a certain kind of person when she's running for the president of the United States.

ZAHN: But isn't that what all candidates do; they hug the middle?

BUCHANAN: But let's talk about her.

ZAHN: Centrism has worked for every single candidate that ever gets elected...

BUCHANAN: Yes, but -- there you are.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: ... on the Republican side and the Democratic side.

(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: I have been on CNN...

ZAHN: Look at Rudy Giuliani. Look at Mitt Romney.

BUCHANAN: Exactly.

ZAHN: They have all changed their positions.

BUCHANAN: Yes, they have. And they have been out there. And what has the media done? They are hammering. You said this then, Mr. Mayor. Now you say this. And how about, Governor, this?

They're being asked to defend it. Where is it? You mentioned just now she's a centrist. I have been on CNN how many years. How many times have I heard she's a -- she's a moderate?

ZAHN: I haven't said she's a centrist herself. But -- but people accused her...

(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: Yes, accused.

(CROSSTALK) ZAHN: ... when she got elected, of hugging the middle.

BUCHANAN: The media sells that. I have been on television so many times, and they say, you know, she's a moderate. She's a centrist.

She is not. She is a liberal. If you look at her record -- and, surely, that counts for something -- ADA, Americans for Democratic Action, give her a 95 every single year, except one, when she got a perfect score of 100. They say she's right up there with the Kennedy and Schumers and the Dodds.

She is extremely liberal in her record. So, how can CNN come on and say she's a moderate? Why did they do that? Because her staff told the media, she's a moderate.

ZAHN: Well, I don't know that I have heard anybody at CNN call her a moderate.

BUCHANAN: Oh. Oh, I have been on when I have been told...

ZAHN: OK.

BUCHANAN: ... and the premise of the question is, Bay, she's a moderate. How do you beat a centrist like Hillary Clinton?

This is established in my book. I give case after case, "New York Times" and others, establishing, this lady is not a liberal.

ZAHN: All right.

BUCHANAN: It's mean-spirited conservatives that call her one.

ZAHN: Well, let's bring in our panel.

BUCHANAN: That -- that is a makeover that is a conspiracy that involves the media to deliberately mislead the American people as to who this woman is.

ZAHN: Let's bring in our panel now.

BUCHANAN: Please.

ZAHN: Some who have worked with Hillary Clinton long the way. Radio host Darrell Ankarlo who has not worked with her ...

ANKARLO: No, I haven't.

ZAHN : And nor would you want to, I imagine. Julie Roginsky and Kiki McLean who knows the former first lady very well.

So Kiki, you've just heard what Bay had to say. This is the woman who has no character, that she is insecure. That basically she is hugging the middle just for political expediency. That she is a liberal. MCLEAN: I've got to tell you, Bay and I have known one another for a long time and we're quite friendly. And I've had a lot of respect for her. This book is 211 pages in pretty big print. It reads to me more -- The most that I read of it, it reads like Bay's personal opinion about Hillary Clinton. She doesn't like her. Get over it. And it's sort of the tail end of the cottage industry of selling to those few far-left Clinton-haters that there are today than there used to be and make a little money off of it.

I mean, the part that really cracked me up as I've read it is Bay goes into this long explanation about how Hillary Clinton is insecure. And her argument is that she solicits opinions. She asks peoples' thoughts. She got a recommendation on where to go for vacation. But at the end of Bay's book, in her acknowledgment, she thanks people for whose opinions and advice she sought. So I guess Bay is insecure as well.

I mean, I really just don't understand this other than it's not an academic exercise in history. It's not a historian's book. It's not a biographer's book. It's a part of a cottage industry and in this instance I think it's Bay's personal opinion.

ZAHN: What is wrong with embracing other peoples' ideas or if not embracing them at least considering them?

BUCHANAN: But as ...

ZAHN: That is a criticism of this president today.

BUCHANAN: Yes, I understand. Absolutely.

ZAHN: That he's not listening to anybody.

BUCHANAN: But the key here it's certainly - one expects leaders to talk to other people from different points of view and take it in and make some decisions themselves, but as you learn more and more about Hillary, she takes in information in very well, but she's not able to deduce. She doesn't have confidence in her own decision- making.

Why does she have so many experts? Why is she so dependent on gurus and experts and advisers in her life? There's no question that this woman -- look at what she did when she was down and out. She went to a spiritual guru, a new age guru, Jeanne Houston (ph) and this woman said to help you out, I think you should talk to the dead and what did she do? She did it. I mean, come on now.

ROGINSKY: Does that disqualify her for being president?

BUCHANAN: It sure should disqualify her.

ROGINSKY: Then I guess the Reagans must have been disqualified, too.

BUCHANAN: Mrs. Reagan was not the president.

ROGINSKY: Neither is Hillary Clinton ...

BUCHANAN: Hopefully she is not.

ROGINSKY: Well, let me just say this to you. Hillary Clinton has been so vetted for so many years, and I agree with Kiki. With all due respect. I read your book last night. I read it very carefully. And Kiki is absolutely right. This is a book where you cite sources going back to the late Barbara Olson. Well, I'm sorry Barbara Olson passed away, tragically on September 11th. These are old stories. Old sources. And there's nothing ...

ANKARLO: Time out a second.

ROGINSKY: Let me just finish this. You've accused Hillary Clinton of being insecure because she's changed her hair style. I do that over and over again.

BUCHANAN: It's a symptom. Point after point after point.

ZAHN: You don't change your hair?

BUCHANAN: Nowhere near as many times as she has.

ZAHN: Does it matter?

ANKARLO: Wow. Let me jump in for a second. First of all, I'm losing my hair so we can't talk about hair styles here for a minute. In 2000 "New York Post" looked for the most tragic figures in American and world history, as the worst, the most evil. Hillary Clinton came in at number six behind Stalin and Adolf Hitler. 2005 she gets 65 percent in New York as trustworthy and honest. It's a make-over. So, Bay, you know, I'm not agreeing with everything you did in your book, but you're giving us a good idea of a make-over.

ZAHN: Kiki, you've got 10 seconds. Is it a makeover or a proven track record?

MCLEAN: I think it's Bay's opinion and nothing more. Nothing to worry about.

ZAHN: All right.

BUCHANAN: She's accomplished very little, ladies. Very little whatsoever.

ZAHN: All right. Got to leave it there. Bay Buchanan, thanks for coming by tonight. Darrell Ankarlo, clearly outnumbered by the women tonight. Julie Roginsky and Kiki McLean. Thank you all.

Senator Clinton has one thing in common with a lot of other presidential candidates both Democratic and Republican. And they are really, really rich. How much is your favorite candidate worth? And can they possibly relate to you? Wait until you hear the numbers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ZAHN: A whole lot of money is out in the open tonight. I'm not just talking about millions of dollars but tens, even hundreds of millions and it belongs to the presidential candidates from both parties. Not campaign money. I'm talking about their personal fortunes. Can anyone with that much money claim to be a candidate of the people? Here's senior political correspondent Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Anyway you crunch the numbers, the top tier of the presidential class of '08 is a bunch of rich people.

BILL PRESS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Now, it's any little boy can grow up, dream of becoming a multimillionaire and then run for president. Because I think if you're not, you can't do it today.

CROWLEY: Can't do it because the cost of campaigns is now so high, there is an increasing number of candidates using their own money to help foot the bill. In '08, there is jaw-dropping wealth. Mitt Romney, a one time investment banker, is worth up to a quarter billion dollars. And there is merely rich. Barack Obama earned 738,000 last year.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) IL: It will say that I'm not one of the wealthiest candidates in this race.

CROWLEY: True enough. John Edwards' earned income last year was $1.25 million. Rudy Giuliani earned 16 million. Wow.

They're in a stratosphere all their own. Consider for a moment that A, elections are about relating to voters, and B the median net worth of Americans in 2004 was $93,100 or C the median yearly income in 2005 was just over 46,000.

Even, quote, "poorer" candidates make more than twice that. The money gap between the elected and those who elect them has grown wider over the years.

SHEILA KRUMHOLZ, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: They are an elite class and in fat half of the Senate are millionaires, if that gives you a sense of -- of their financial profile on average. Whereas, of course, only about one percent of the American population are millionaires.

CROWLEY: And all that money may have taken a toll.

PRESS: I think one of the real problems with voter turn-out in this country is a lot of people feel that unless they can write a big check to a candidate or have a lot of money and, therefore, can become a candidate, that the door is closed. So they just tune out and turn off and don't want to participate because they see money, money, money.

CROWLEY: At camp Edwards, they are sensitive given that Edwards is running an anti-poverty campaign and has already taken flak for a couple of $400 haircuts. The point, said the campaign, is that Edwards did not come from wealth and thinks every American should have the shots he did. Likewise, camp Giuliani rejects suggestions that his wealth was built exploiting 9/11.

The former mayor made $11 million in speaking fees last year and another 4.1 million from his consulting firm that deals in security issues.

His campaign says Giuliani was a successful public servant who went into business and was successful again. It is telling, an aide added, that many people around the world from all walks of life want to hear him speak.

CROWLEY (on camera): In the final tally, the question is whether politics is a way to make money or whether money is a way to get into politics. The answer is, yes. Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Certainly is. And as a parent I'll do just about anything to keep my kids safe no matter how old they get, but should college students be allowed to carry concealed weapons on campus? Will it make any of them safer? Will it save lives? Coming up, lawmakers from one state talk about the debate raging in their state right now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The explosive issue of allowing people to carry guns at school is back out in the open tonight. A month and a day after the Virginia Tech massacre, state lawmakers in South Carolina are now considering a bill that would allow concealed weapons on public school grounds.

It has already made it through one subcommittee. And with me now is Robert Butler vice president of Grassroots Gunrights South Carolina who testified in support of the bill. And South Carolina State Representative Todd Rutherford who thinks the idea on guns on campus is a very bad idea. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks so much for being with us.

ROBERT BUTLER, GRASSROOTS GUNRIGHTS SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you for having us.

TODD RUTHERFORD, (D) SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REP.: Thank you.

ZAHN: Robert, I want to start with you tonight. This bill would allow students on campus, at university parties, at sporting events, to carry concealed weapons. I want to put up on the screen what qualifications they'd have to clear to do that. They'd have to be at least 21, they'd have to have eight hours of training, they would have criminal and mental background checks. Is this really going to make schools any safer?

BUTLER: Yes.

ZAHN: How? When you've got security guards and campus officials saying that they don't want guns anywhere near campuses. Leave it up to the experts, leave it to the guys who are really trained for these jobs.

BUTLER: We -- it's really not worth getting into talking about their training. What I will say is that at the subcommittee, one of the chiefs of police said when their policemen show up, they fire seven to nine rounds and never hit anything.

But that's not the issue. The issue has to do with our children and keeping our children safer. In math, you can't divide by zero. And in logic, you can't prove a negative. But what we can prove is that there are numerous instances where armed civilians have stopped active shooters in their tracks and protected the students from further carnage.

ZAHN: All right, but if you just made the point ...

BUTLER: Our opposition can't show any instance where concealed weapon permit-holders have been part of the problem.

ZAHN: Well, let's let Mr. Rutherford respond to that. Then I want to come up to the idea -- come back to the idea of training. Mr. Rutherford, your response to that.

RUTHERFORD: Absolutely. I just want to start off by saying I'm not an anti-gun person. I'm a gun owner myself. And I think that the concealed weapons permit program is actually a good one. Actually, in South Carolina, we expanded that to allow other states that have -- that give concealed weapons permits to their citizens, that their citizens can then come into South Carolina and carry a concealed weapon. That is part of the problem.

The qualifications that were just put on the screen are only for South Carolina residents, not for residents of other states that come into South Carolina with their concealed weapons permit, can then go to a football game, for example, drink beer, stand out there with their concealed weapons permit and get all excited, and then you have a parking lot full of people carrying guns. Never a good idea on a college campus.

The state law currently does not allow it in dare cares and hospitals and churches and I don't think that anyone supports the idea of making it so that you can carry a gun in church. It's a bad idea to allow guns on college campuses. Not because it's anti-NRA or anti gun owner, but just because security guards and police officers are already on those campuses. They take care of security on those campuses, and we don't need every individual holding guns there.

ZAHN: And those security guards, Robert, have said that they believe that allowing concealed weapons would actually escalate the fighting, but I want to come back to what you said about you didn't want to get into the training issue. If cops fire as inaccurately as you just depicted, what would make you think that students would keep other students any safer if they're not going to have nearly as much training as law enforcement representatives.

BUTLER: Well, first of all, you're confusing the issue.

ZAHN: How so?

BUTLER: The issue is not so much having students carrying firearms because most students aren't old enough to be able to qualify for a concealed weapon permit.

The issue is allowing the parents of these students to be able to possess these firearms while they're dropping their children off at school, while they're picking their children up at school. As it currently stands, if a concealed weapons permit holding drops their child off or picks their child off at a school or college with a firearm on their person, they've committed a felony.

ZAHN: All right. But Todd, that would not have saved any lives at Virginia Tech. You get the quick final thought.

RUTHERFORD: It would not have saved any lives and it's not necessary legislation. We have an enough school resource officers and we have enough police officers in our schools to take care of those. We don't need every citizen firing off rounds at anybody they think is a threat or a danger in our schools.

ZAHN: Todd Rutherford, representative from South Carolina, thanks for your time. Robert Butler, appreciate yours as well. We're going to move on now.

Every week we spotlight people who may inspire you. Coming up, a wounded veteran and his new life on the baseball diamond.

We'll introduce you to him when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: All right. Now we're going to take a quick "Biz Break." The Dow lost 10. NASDAQ down eight. The S&P lost one. Probably heard the news. Paul Wolfowitz has given up.

Just a few hours ago World Bank officials announced he will resign as president at the end of June. He had been under fire for helping his girlfriend get a promotion and pay raise. Bank directors in a statement today say they accept his assurance that he acted ethically and in good faith.

Gas prices set another record today. AAA says the average is now $3.11 a gallon.

We turn now to a story of an Iraq War veteran who got the chance to make his dream a reality. After an event that ended his military career and changed his life forever.

Larry Smith has his story in tonight's "Life After Work."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER BRANNAN, BASEBALL PLAYER: I always tell my dad when i was younger, my dream was to become a major leaguer.

LARRY SMITH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cooper Brannan is closer to reaching that dream, currently pitching in the minor leagues for the San Diego Padres. It's a world away from his previous job where he also worked under the American flag except his squad then was the Marines.

BRANNAN: When 9/11 happened, it was a huge impact. I always felt in the back of my mind that I wanted to join the Marine Corps.

SMITH: Brannon joined the Marines out of high school in 2003 and spent two tours of duty in Iraq. Last November, a single incident in Fallujah changed his life.

BRANNAN: I remember one of my younger Marines didn't have a flash bang grenade. I reached on the left side of my flak jacket with my left hand unfortunately the flash bang bomb went off. I ended up losing the medial part of my hand and the pinkie finger.

SMITH: The malfunctioning grenade damaged Brannan's left non- throwing him and took him out of active duty. During his recovery at a California hospital, Padres CEO Sandy Alderson came by Brannan's wing on a tour. One of his fellow soldiers told the CEO about Brannan's talents as a pitcher.

BRANNAN: They said, hey, we're going to give you a try.

SMITH: Brannon impressed the scouts during his tryouts and signed a minor league contract after his military service ended this spring.

BRANNAN: I'm a couple steps behind, but, you know, I'm throwing great. I'm doing good. I'm getting guys out.

SMITH: And his work now is a sharp contrast to his previous job in Iraq.

BRANNAN: You can come out here and, you know, strike out and then, you know, you got another day. You know, you're living still. You know, out there it's do or die.

SMITH: Larry Smith, CNN, Peoria, Arizona.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: We're rooting for you, Brannan.

And you're about to meet a CNN hero who is fighting slavery. Meet him when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: All year long, this network is shining a spotlight on people who turn their vision for a better world into action. We call them "CNN Heroes." And tonight, we're introducing you to a teenager who found a simple way to fight slavery all over the world. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZACH HUNTER, LOOSE CHANGE TO LOOSE CHAINS: I think that the most important thing that people should know about this issue is that slavery is still going on. Many people don't know that.

Even though it's illegal everywhere, it goes on everywhere, too.

This is a pair of shackles that they would use on modern-day slaves today. If your little brother or sister was wearing these and rolling cigarettes all day, you'd want somebody to free them. That's what we're trying to do.

I'm Zach Hunter, and I am a modern-day abolitionist. I've always had a strong sense of justice. If I saw someone getting pushed down on the playground or something I wanted to go help them. So I first heard about this three years ago.

I was learning abut Frederick Douglass, Dr. Martin Luther King. Then when I found out that slavery still existed, I felt like I had to do something.

Everybody in this room has benefited from slavery one way or another.

When I was 12 years old, I started Loose Change to Loosen Chains. It's entirely student-led and it's about raising loose change to free slaves. The loose change that we raise goes directly to the organization. They can actually raid the places and get the slaves out.

There's more than $10.5 billion of loose change in American household. So I decided to take something as underestimated as loose change as underestimated as the teenage years, put them together.

This is a really good issue for people my age. And it's just something we can really get dirty and do something about. The main plan is to abolish slavery within my lifetime and I really believe that that can happen.

This Loose Change to Loosen Chains campaign really is my heart. It is something I am passionate about. People my age that can really change things. It is sort of my dream for my generation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And if you want to learn more about Loose Change to Loosen Chains, go to cnn.com/heroes. You can also nominate someone for a CNN hero award and special recognition later this year.

That wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Thanks so much for joining us. The finalists from "Dancing with the Stars" join LARRY KING LIVE tonight right after this. Again, thanks for joining us tonight.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com

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