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American Morning

Immigration Deal: Path to Citizenship; Paul Wolfowitz Resigns as World Bank President; No-Confidence Vote: Attorney General Under Fire

Aired May 18, 2007 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Deal?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The agreement reached today is one that will help enforce our borders. It will treat people with respect.

ROBERTS: Or no deal?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a blanket amnesty. It's nothing but amnesty.

ROBERTS: The fight for and against a new plan to give illegal immigrants a shot at citizenship.

Safe ride or sinister threat? A new x-ray on car seats for kids. Are toxic chemicals putting your child at risk?

And call of the wild. Music for humpback whales fails to get a mother and calf back to where they belong. A critical rescue mission revised on this AMERICAN MORNING.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTS: And good morning to you. It is Friday, May the 18th.

I'm John Roberts in Washington.

KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Good to see you today, John.

I'm Kiran Chetry, here in New York.

Some stories on our radar this morning.

(NEWSBREAK)

CHETRY: First, though, we begin what could be the biggest change in immigration policy and law in this country in decades. A new immigration bill getting bipartisan support in the Senate, and it could pave the way for 12 million illegal immigrants to eventually become U.S. citizens.

Congressional Correspondent Dana Bash is live at Capitol Hill this morning. Hi, Dana. Good to see you.

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, Kiran.

And when you talking about this plan, it's certainly complex. But let's start where you left off, what happens to those estimated 12 million or so illegal immigrants in the United States.

First of all, under this plan they will be able to stay legally, indefinitely, with a new so-called Z visa. And after paying a $5,000 fine and other fees, meeting other requirements, they could get on a path to citizenship.

But, in order to placate conservatives who call that amnesty, negotiators said citizenship will not happen until the border is fortified. So, that includes expanding the border fence, and also doubling the number of Border Patrol agents.

But, despite that and a new worker identification program, many of people are looking at this and really saying -- attacking it. There's some blistering criticism, Kiran. They say, look, no matter what you want to call it, this rewards illegal behavior, period, end of story.

CHETRY: And what about the guest worker situation? Because that was another big issue, what to do with people that want to come in for some temporary or seasonal work and don't want to have to be doing it illegally.

BASH: And there is new guest worker program in there just to accomplish what you just laid out. There's a two-year guest worker program for at least 400,000 workers per year. And this -- included in this there will be new penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants.

Now, interestingly, this is part of this broad bipartisan plan that is drawing fire from the left, from some Democrats and some of their traditional constituencies like the labor groups, because they say, look, this is not fair, because bringing these workers in will take away jobs that Americans might be able to take. And also, they don't like the idea that this is truly temporary, that these workers coming in really have very little chance at becoming permanent U.S. citizens -- Kiran.

CHETRY: All right. So, on both sides, some grumblings with this. What are the chances of it becoming law?

BASH: Well, you know, it's interesting. You would think that the president's on board, you've got Democrats, you've got Republicans, that it has pretty good chances. But it's really unclear, because, first of all, it's got to face a blistering debate that starts in the Senate next week. There could be lots of amendments that could change this dramatically.

Then, if it passes the Senate, it faces an uncertain fate in the House, because the House speaker understands what happened the last election, Kiran. You remember Democrats got absolutely pummeled by Republicans on this very issue, immigration. So, she has said she's not going to bring this to the floor unless the president can deliver at least 70 Republican votes. That may not be very easy.

CHETRY: Wow. All right.

Dana Bash, thanks so much.

BASH: Thank you.

CHETRY: Coming up, we're going to be talking to Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff, as well as Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez. Their take on this plan, 7:30 Eastern Time.

Also, our own Lou Dobbs is going to be joining us a little bit later in the next hour. No doubt he has a lot to say about that as well this morning.

There's some developing news out of Iraq. We now know the name of the fourth soldier that was killed in Saturday's ambush near Mahmoudiyah, Iraq. He was Sergeant Anthony Schober of Gardnerville, Nevada.

The FBI and Australian forensic experts are on the scene helping in the search for the three soldiers still missing as a result of that ambush. They're checking evidence that could mean the men are still alive. They also say, though, they're dealing with a lot of false leads.

CNN's Arwa Damon is embedded with search teams, and she's going to be updating us on the progress a little later in the hour.

ROBERTS: Today the talk at the World Bank is about who is going to be its next president, and the deal that the bank agreed to to get Paul Wolfowitz out. Wolfowitz is resigning his presidency effective June the 30th.

State Department Correspondent Zain Verjee is covering all of this, has been for the past few weeks.

So, Wolfowitz got a deal, but still lost his job.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. It was a pretty dramatic end. Two days of secret negotiations back and forth, weeks of paralysis at the World Bank, and major international pressure for him to resign.

He did that Thursday evening. Paul Wolfowitz said this: "I have concluded that it is in the best interest of those whom this institution serves for that mission to be carried forward under new leadership."

He got the compromise that he was looking for. He's leaving not shouldering all the blame. The bank is taking some responsibility. They made a statement, and here's what they said. "He assured us that he acted ethically and in good faith in what he believed were the best interests of the institution, and we accept that." "It is clear," they went on to say, "that a number of mistakes were made by a number of individuals."

The bank also praised him for his two years of service, said he did a good job with debt relief, aid to Africa. And he'll be leaving on the 30th of June. He's the only World Bank president, John, to leave this way.

ROBERTS: So, he gets fired in a nice way sort of thing.

What is the White House saying about all of this? Because President Bush nominated him for the position.

VERJEE: Right.

ROBERTS: Vice President Cheney was sticking behind him all the way along.

VERJEE: Yes. All the way along until the last minute, when it became clear that the situation was no longer tenable and...

ROBERTS: Yes, when someone is kind of halfway over a cliff, you have to..

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE: Right, exactly. So that's what happened, he just went over.

A White House spokesman said that President Bush would have preferred it that Wolfowitz stayed, but he reluctantly accepts his decision to step down.

ROBERTS: All right. Zain, thanks for that. Appreciate the update.

The pressure is building for Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to resign. He's feeling the heat from both parties, and now Democrats are hoping that a no-confidence vote next week will seal the deal.

CNN Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena is live in Washington, where she's watching this drama play out.

Kelli, it seems that support for the attorney general is slipping every day.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It sure is, John. You know, every time you turn around there's a new revelation, new details that emerge that really do not make him look good. And you have -- you know, the real -- the real test here is how many Republicans are calling for him to resign.

And you've got five Republicans now that are calling for him to leave, and that is not counting people like Senator Specter, for example, who has said that he doesn't feel that he's capable of doing the job. Well, you know, OK, so, there's a shade of difference there. You know, leave, or, you know, you can't do the job. What really is the difference?

So, he's losing support, and it's very important for him to have the support of Congress. As you know, the attorney general, you know, needs to have that relationship to push the president's agenda forward.

ROBERTS: Yes, I think what it was that Specter said yesterday was he thought that by the time this is all over, the investigation, that the tenure of the attorney general will have come to an end.

Let's take a quick look at what Charles Schumer said yesterday. He said that -- issued a release yesterday that he and Senator Feinstein of California want to hold a no-confidence vote on Gonzales.

Let's take a listen to Schumer and what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: His credibility is shot. Any faith that he can manage or run the department is gone. And the very justice system which is at the core of our democratic values is held in disrepute every day that he holds office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: So, Kelli, what does that really mean for the attorney general?

ARENA: Well, you know, it means that officially Congress is trying to go forward and say, we think you better go. I mean, the White House says, look, this is a meaningless political act. This attorney general still has the support of the president.

And John, when it comes down to it, unless the attorney general goes to the president and says, look, you know, I'm hurting you, I've got to go, or the president says to him, you've got to go, he stays right where he is. The Department of Justice says it's exactly what the attorney general plans on doing. Doing the work of the people is the quote that they put out, you know, focusing on crime and terrorism.

So, Justice is trying to just, you know, tuck this away. The White House is trying to tuck it away. But Congress will not let it go.

ROBERTS: Yes. Many times, though, when a president gets a challenge like that, he just digs in his heels.

Kelli Arena...

ARENA: Well, that's true.

ROBERTS: Yes. Thanks very much, Kelli.

CHETRY: Well, in California this morning, scientists are working around the clock on a new plan to try to help two injured humpback whales get back to the Pacific Ocean. They're trying to lure them using recorded underwater sounds. They tried this yesterday, didn't work out so well. So now they're going to try something new.

Kara Finnstrom is live in west Sacramento, California.

What are they trying now? I guess they had such a big boat that they were using that they thought maybe the engine sounds interfered with the whale sounds. So what did they decide to do today?

KARA FINNSTROM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they did. And what they're going to do today isn't quite clear yet.

Yesterday, they asked, actually, the person who was in charge of that boat to try to hold off on their operations so that the engine sound wouldn't interfore with the efforts under way. Today they'll be regrouping. They're going to talk about how these whales fared yesterday, and they're going to talk about what their strategy should be moving forward.

A few minutes ago we just heard the sounds that they played under water for these whales. They say there may be a good reason that these whales didn't respond yesterday. There are lots of different kind of sounds they can use, so they'll be trying some new combinations today and hoping to get some kind of response.

They say and all this is an experiment. They've just never done anything like this before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER FOLKENS, ALASKA WHALE FOUNDATION: We are in new territory. We've never been in a situation where we've had a cow-calf pair, both of whom were injured, or are injured, and they're 77 miles up a freshwater river. This is all brand new to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FINNSTROM: Now, Kiran, right now we do have the whales continuing to circle behind us. It's a contained area. There are wildlife crews that are keeping watch over them. But we've seen them kind of surface from time to time as they circle in the waters behind us.

CHETRY: Still hoping for the best, but saying don't keep the expectations too high at this point.

Kara, thank you.

ROBERTS: Coming up, more meat recalled because of the threat of E. coli bacteria. We'll tell you about that.

And Dr. Sanjay Gupta shows us what he found in his special investigation. Can you ever be sure that your food is safe?

Plus, car seats save lives, but is the one that your child is riding in made of toxic chemicals? New tests to show you live in our studio this morning.

And a former cycling champ makes a shocking admission. No, it's not Lance Armstrong, it's not Floyd Landis. Greg LeMond's bombshell and the cycling soap opera ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

The most news in the morning is on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROBERTS: More worries this morning about the food we eat. A hundred and twenty-nine thousand pounds of beef products made by Davis Creek Meats and Seafood are being recalled because of possible E. coli contamination. The beef was manufactured between March 1st and April 30th.

This affects Gordon Food Service stores in 15 states in the Southeast and the Midwest.

That E. coli bacteria -- scientists call it E. coli 0157-H7 -- doesn't just end up in beef. It's also in so much of the produce that we eat, as well.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is investigating the safety of our food and just how hard it is to ensure that the food you eat is free of bacteria. We're paging Sanjay Gupta with more.

And Sanjay, this is an issue that a lot of people really care about, particularly after the scare last year. And it's very difficult to make sure that the food you eat is free of this bacteria.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, It is. And, you know, it's interesting. As you were talking about the beef recall, it sort of reminded me that in the '90s we used to hear about E. coli in beef almost -- almost exclusively. And over the last decade or so it's really become much more a problem of produce.

A lot of people say, well, I buy the triple-washed stuff, the triple-washed spinach, for example. How safe is that, and how could I possibly clean this stuff, clean the E. coli off my produce if I'm at home?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA (voice over): It takes only a pinpoint's worth of E. coli 0157-H7 to make you sick. As few as 100 cells. Young children and the very old are the most vulnerable to its toxin.

E. coli 0157 is also extremely hearty. It's resistant to cold. And in one test it survived on a leaf of lettuce for 77 days.

Mansour Samadpour knows all about deadly bacteria. He's president of IEH Laboratories, a Seattle-based company that tests salad greens for E. coli and other pathogens.

MANSOUR SAMADPOUR, PRESIDENT, IEH LABORATORIES: So every 15 minutes they can double in numbers. So, you could have one cell going in, and after 24 hours you can have billions of them. And toxin is released, it's absorbed, and starts killing the intestinal cells and makes its way throughout the body.

GUPTA: We asked Samadpour to contaminate spinach leaves with E. coli 0157 and then use various methods to remove the bacteria. Washing it off in water, 50 parts per million of chlorine bleach in water, the same as the commercial processors use, and then two commercially available vegetable washers.

SAMADPOUR: This product you have to spray. After that, you mix.

GUPTA: Finally, bleach and the vegetable washes.

SAMADPOUR: We're measuring the amount of bacteria that were on these leaves before the treatment and after the treatment, and we can determine what the impact of the treatment was.

GUPTA: Now, the unwashed spinach had 11,700 bacterial colonies. Each is one or two organisms. More than enough to make you sick.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: You know, one of the things about this, if you talk about it from an optimistic standpoint, the beef industry was eventually able to get a handle on this. You still hear about things like you were just reporting, John, about the recall, but for the most part, people don't get sick from E. coli in beef anymore. They were able to fix the problem.

For the most part, it's still very voluntary with regards to the produce industry. So it's very hard to know just how widespread the problem is -- John.

ROBERTS: So, what method works best? If you're a consumer at home and you want to make sure that the produce that you're about to serve yourself or your family is clean, what method works best?

GUPTA: Well, let me give you a couple of numbers. When we did this testing ourselves, we started out with about 12,000 bacteria on the spinach. What we found was that just washing it alone in vigorous tap water only reduced it by about half, to about 6,000.

Using the chlorine, plus the vegetable wash in the bleach sort of solution was the best, but only reduced it to about 2,300. And the reason that's important, John, is, remember, it only takes about 100 to get you sick. So really, the truth is, as far as preventing illness, none of them really worked.

ROBERTS: Wow. So what's a person to do?

GUPTA: Well, you know, I mean, there are certain things. Obviously, for the consumer standpoint, the step has to start back even sooner.

You know, the produce industry really has to prevent the E. coli from ever getting on the spinach or staying on the spinach in the first place. We're going to talk about some of the methods they're using to do that in the special this weekend. But also, I think things like refrigeration seems to make a huge difference, because you can actually prevent the bacteria from multiplying.

But you've really got to think of produce the same way you think about beef. You've got to handle it, you know, differently. You've got to wash your hands before and after, use separate cutting boards. A lot of people just don't think about it that way.

Also, remember, with beef, you have what is called a kill step. You're going to cook it, and that's going to kill the bacteria.

ROBERTS: Yes.

GUPTA: With spinach, for example, you don't have that kill step. So that makes it even a little bit more difficult to get rid of some of that E. coli.

ROBERTS: So you've almost got to handle it like chicken. Interesting.

GUPTA: That's right.

ROBERTS: Never knew that.

Sanjay Gupta, thanks very much.

For more information on the safety of our produce, you can go to cnn.com/poisonedfood. And don't miss Sanjay's special investigation, "Danger: Poisoned Food". That is coming up Saturday and Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

CHETRY: You're making me hungry at 20 past the hour.

We're going to check in with Chad Myers right now for a look at the nation's weather.

(WEATHER REPORT)

CHETRY: Well, coming up, a cycling scandal. Greg LeMond, Tour de France winner, shocking testimony coming from him. He says he was forced to drop a bombshell from his past because of some allegations. We're going to get to the bottom of it.

And are your kids being exposed to toxic chemicals in their car seats? There are new tests to show you, and we're going to do some live in the studio before you strap your kids in and hit the road. How concerned should we be about this?

We'll talk about it coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWSBREAK)

CHETRY: Twenty-five past the hour now. Ali Velshi is "Minding Your Business," talking a little bit about the impact that the immigration bill, if it does indeed make its way through Congress and gets signed by the president, how it affects businesses.

ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Is it good for business or bad for business?

CHETRY: Right.

VELSHI: I mean, it's not an obvious answer, is it?

In the case of some businesses that have been lobbying for legal rights for more immigrants because they realize that we're short of workers in the United States -- and, you know, regardless of what anybody is going to say about that, that is established fact. The United States needs more immigrants.

Now, regardless of how business feel about that, some of them have been dealing with undocumented immigrants and not paying the social services necessary for them. So, now they're going to have to do that. So you think in some areas that's going to be hurtful. In other areas it's going to be very beneficial because these people need the extra workers.

Who is likely to benefit from this? Take a look at these industries that are likely to benefit: the construction sector, the packing plants, agricultural workers. People who have been using largely low to medium-skilled workers, because those are people when will get the 400,000 -- most of the 400,000 guest worker permits per year if this passes.

Who is likely not to gain? Well, at the top end of the training sector, the tech industry has been pushing for more visas for skilled workers. And they're not getting more. They're getting 140,000 workers a year. Unions also are not likely to benefit from the type of workers who don't want to rock the boat because they're getting these visas.

So, it's a mixed bag. Are you benefiting or are you not benefiting from this? It's a good question.

CHETRY: And then there was also the talk, and even back in 1986 under Reagan, when they allowed for the amnesty...

VELSHI: Right.

CHETRY: ... I think at the time it was only two million, but one of the conditions was supposed to be this stringent crackdown for fines on employers that hire illegal workers. That sort of lost its teeth throughout the years.

What is going to happen again now? VELSHI: They are going to impose more stringent fines on workers who -- on employers who employ illegal workers, or undocumented workers. And anybody who does sign up for these programs will also have to pay in order to do so. In fact, there's some criticism that the levels that they're asking workers to pay is much higher than it would be.

Remember, this also has to offset the fact that these people will now come into the system. Hopefully, they'll be paying into the system in terms of taxes and Social Security. But then they will also be getting benefits. So, there's a lot of math, a lot of money involved in figuring out how to make this work.

On one side, there's a massive political problem with a whole lot of undocumented workers. On the other side, there's a financial issue.

CHETRY: And logistics as well.

VELSHI: And logistics, and all the security. It will take a long time to figure out whether this is going to work. And remember, we're still in the very early stages of this. It may not even happen.

CHETRY: Ali, thank you.

ROBERTS: The top stories of the morning are coming up straight ahead.

Celebrations are short. Now comes the hard part. How can supporters of the big immigration bill get their way? We talk with the White House's point man on it coming up next.

Plus, Arwa Damon on patrol with troops in Iraq, searching for missing soldiers and talking with troops about the emotional toll it's taking.

We'll have a live report from the front lines.

And a car seat is supposed to keep your little ones safe, but could the material it's made out of be toxic? We'll show you a special portable x-ray machine that seeks out the chemicals inside.

You're watching AMERICAN MORNING. The most news in the morning is on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR, AMERICAN MORNING: Picture of the White House this morning and you can see the other side of Constitution Avenue there, the grounds on the mall. Just to the right of that shot you see the little flags over the top. That is just right by where the Washington monument is. We'll be going live to the White House in just a couple minutes to talk about the new immigration bill that just got agreed to yesterday in the Senate. Good morning to you. It's Friday, May 18th. I'm John Roberts in Washington. KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR, AMERICAN MORNING: A lot of action out of DC today with that immigration bill. We're going to be covering it, the impact and of course, critics from all sides this morning weighing in as well. I'm Kiran Chetry.

And we have some breaking news out of Iraq right now. Word just in that two employees of ABC News have been killed in an attack in Baghdad. One of the men was an ABC cameraman, the other was a sound technician. They were both reportedly leaving the ABC bureau, returning home after work when their car was attacked. That's all the information we have right now, but we'll bring you more as we find out details.

We've also learned overnight the name of the fourth soldier that was killed in Saturday's ambush near Mahmoudiya, Iraq. He was Sergeant Anthony Schober of Gardnerville, Nevada. The FBI and Australian forensics experts are helping in the search now for three missing soldiers who were also taken during that ambush that killed four of their colleagues. We're checking evidence that could mean the men are still alive. They're also though say that they're dealing with a lot of false leads. CNN's Arwa Damon is embedded with those troops in Iraq's so-called triangle of death.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SGT. SHANE SANDERS, U.S. ARMY: I didn't imagine that this would happen. We first came up and all I saw was, I saw bits of equipment and uniforms and I saw the truck on fire. I mean, just progressively got worse as you get closer.

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergeant Shane Sanders is a medic, one of the first at the scene.

SANDERS: The night before I was watching TV with these guys, joking with them, now to see them like that.

DAMON: The killed and missing from Saturday's ambush lived here. This area less than a mile from where the attack took place is not friendly to U.S. forces. The vegetation is so thick in some of these places you can barely see through it, providing the insurgents with perfect cover to carry out their attacks or plant roadside bombs and making it even more difficult for the Americans to find their missing men.

CHAPLAIN JEFF BRYAN, U.S. ARMY: We've dealt with losses of our soldiers before and I tend to find that these soldiers are not ready to quit. They're ready to just keep going.

PFC. SAMUEL RHODES, U.S. ARMY: We depended a lot on each other right now. Our heart was broken. But, it's our will and our strength that drives us to keep going for our guys. I'm sorry for their loss. I'm sorry that their kids aren't coming home in the way that they want them to. They're all heroes, they all did their job.

DAMON: Arwa Damon, CNN, near Yusifia, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTS: Immigration, deal or no deal? After three months of negotiating, the Senate says it may finally have one. The bill would beef up border security and put 12 million illegal immigrants on a path to citizenship. But critics say it rewards people for breaking the law. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and the Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez join me now live from the north lawn of the White House. Good morning to you, gentlemen.

Secretary Gutierrez, this plan that was agreed to in the Senate yesterday would grant legal status to some 12 million illegal immigrants if they qualify. How is that not amnesty?

CARLOS GUTIERREZ, COMMERCE SECRETARY: Well, first of all, as you say, they have to qualify. They have to pay a fine. There is no automatic path to citizenship. There is no guarantee that they will get their legal status. So, we don't believe it's amnesty and we think this problem is so big and we have such a dysfunctional system that it's a lot bigger than sitting around, debating the meaning of a word. We've got to move forward. We have to solve the problem and we can't be sitting here for the next several years debating the word amnesty while the problem gets bigger and bigger and bigger. We have a system that is dysfunctional. It doesn't work. It needs to solved. It needs to be solved. We need to take action and we've got to move forward and this is the best way to do it. We believe we have a comprehensive bipartisan bill here that will work.

ROBERTS: Secretary Chertoff, critics of the 1986 amnesty during the Reagan administration say that it was enforcement that was promised, it never came and therefore, the 1986 program only encouraged more illegal immigration. Why wouldn't this plan end up with the same result?

MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Two reasons, John. The first is we're going to put in place as a precondition to this plan a verification system that every employer is going to have to use online to determine whether their workers are, in fact, legal to work. Then there is going to be some tough penalties to back it up. Those tools were not available in '86. The third thing, of course, you've got to have the will to enforce the law and I think what we've demonstrated over the last couple of years is that we're prepared to enforce the law and to be pretty tough about it.

ROBERTS: How does this secure the border though, Secretary Chertoff? Duncan Hunter for example, whose bill last year called for some 700 miles of fencing said that this only guarantees that 370 miles of that fence will be built before the guest worker program and the extended visa program kick in.

CHERTOFF: It guarantees 370 miles of fence, 18,000 (ph) border patrol, plus what we call a virtual fence. Ground-based radar, radar towers, unmanned aerial vehicles, all of which give us the ability to patrol the border, which is a critical element of this entire plan.

ROBERTS: Secretary Gutierrez, let me talk briefly, if I could about this guest worker program. It would allow 400,000 guest workers to come into the country every year. Critics though say, well, first of all, there's the job angle. The unions suggest that this is going to take away jobs from Americans who would like to do those jobs but the more critical point for me in terms of security here is that people are asking, how would you stop those people from staying in the country once their two-year work visa expires, particularly, if they have children while they're here who would become U.S. citizens.

GUTIERREZ: Here's the thing, we're going to have an employee verification system. We're going to have biometric cards. The rules are going to be very clear for employers and for the works. If the workers are here when they shouldn't be here, the employer will be able to verify that, would be able to know it and we can hold both sides accountable because of the technology we have in place, because of the tools we'll use, we'll be able to verify that and to oversee that. So, it will be very difficult to get around the system and if people try to get around the system, they're risking deportation and they're risking to never be able to come back into the system.

ROBERTS: Secretary Chertoff, can you guarantee us this morning that people won't be able to circumvent the system and that people will have to go home and everyone who is on the worker visa will have to go home at the end of two years?

CHERTOFF: John, let me explain why that is going to happen because there is a carrot and a stick. The carrot is if you break the rules, you're going to be ineligible for the rest of the program. Because it is an attractive program for people who are coming in in the future, they're going to have an incentive to play by the rules. For those who don't play by the rules, we have a verification system. We're going to crack down on employers and that's going to be the stick for the people who are thinking about breaking the law.

ROBERTS: Well, it sounds like it may work in principal. We'll see if it works in practicality. First it's got to pass that hurdle of getting through the House first. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez, thanks for being with us this morning, gentlemen.

GUTIERREZ: Thank you.

CHERTOFF: Thanks, John.

CHETRY: We have some disturbing images to show you, but they could help actually catch a sexual predator. Police in Middletown, New York, say a woman was praying in a Catholic church when she was attacked after midnight Wednesday. There you see the video. She managed to grab a pen, stab this guy in the neck and eventually was able to chase him off. Police say she was volunteering at the time. They caught a good look at his face on the tape and they think that he lives nearby so they are searching for him now.

Well, you probably did a lot of checking before you bought that car seat for your kid, right? You wanted to make sure they were safe. There's one thing though that you probably didn't think you needed to look for, toxic chemicals. Up next, we're going to be putting some of these car seats, the popular brands to the live right here in our studio. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING. The most news in the morning is right here on CNN.

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CHETRY: Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. How safe is your child's car seat? Not in a crash, that is what you thought you had to think about the most right, but actually based on chemicals used to make that car seat. A Michigan-based environmental group tested 60 new infant and toddler car seats and found that your children may be being exposed to dangerous levels of chemicals like chlorine and even lead. This is the first ever ranking of toxic chemicals in child car seats. CNN made several attempts to contact the different manufacturers to ask about this. We're looking into that. We did not get a response yet, though. Jeff Gerhart (ph) is the man who conducted this study. He's the clean car campaign director at the ecology center and joins me live. Thanks for being with us.

JEFF GERHART: Thank you very much for having us here.

CHETRY: You brought with you a gadget that's going to sort of explain for me and our viewers how you go about doing this testing.

GERHART: Yes. I wanted to make one point right off the bat is that we encourage as a parent of two boys, I encourage everyone it use car seats. They're a safety product and people need to use them regardless of what these test results are. This is an XRF instrument that will x-ray the material and tell us the elemental composition of the material.

CHETRY: OK, so let's go for it. Show us how you do the first one.

GERHART: This is a peg perago (ph) infant car seat, actually and we'll place the XRF on the material and within about 10 seconds, we will get a result which we can show.

CHETRY: We'll look at it on the screen and go ahead and tell us what the numbers all mean there.

GERHART: What this shows, which is a bit difficult to see, is that we have a high reading for bromine which the presence of brominated (ph) flame retardants which are one of the chemicals we're very concerned about building up in children's bodies.

CHETRY: The rankings and what did this get? Between zero and five, zero being lowest concern, meaning you want yours to be closer to zero, five being the one that has the highest concern. How did this one do?

GERHART: This was the second worst infant seat that we tested. There was one seat worse than this. I believe it got about a four on our ratings.

CHETRY: All right. Let's do the one that turned out the best, actually which the Graco.

GERHART: The Grace snug ride seat. We could also run a test here. One of the issues in terms of putting this in context that I mentioned to you before is while I was waiting in the green room, we actually tested the TV and some other products in there and we actually found high levels of lead and bromine in those as well. And part of the issue is, these chemicals (INAUDIBLE) they're in many different products so children's exposure in car seats is part of an overall exposure they have and that's our main concern.

CHETRY: Why is it of greater concern? We talked a little bit about how long children are in car seats and also whether or not these chemicals when sitting in a heated car, the sun bakes in may actually be released.

GERHART: That's correct. And children are particularly, this seat tested quite a bit cleaner. This seat has had about 4,000 ppm bromine. This one was down to 400.

CHETRY: Between zero and five on the ranking, zero being the best --

GERHART: This seat ranked very well. It was I think about 1.0 was the rating for this seat.

CHETRY: We sort of get the picture so we'll just tell people about this one. This is the bigger seat. That was for little babies and this they call the convertible because toddlers can sit in it, as well. This is the Costco senara (ph). And you said this one did pretty well.

GERHART: This was one of our best-rated seats. It's one of the more affordable seats. Price didn't have a difference. This is about a $40 seat.

CHETRY: Why are those chemicals in car seats?

GERHART: This is a great example of why we don't need these chemicals. We can make safe car seats that meet all flame retardancy requirements without using these chemicals. We're encouraging the manufacturers to basically work with their suppliers to get these chemicals out of the products.

CHETRY: And is there anything that speeds up the release of the chemicals?

GERHART: Well, these chemicals evaporate and they are in dust and heat can accelerate the release of these chemicals, as well.

CHETRY: Can people do things like keep their cars in cool areas and try to vacuum the seats more often.

GERHART: We do recommend that people keep their cars in cool areas. Ultimately we encourage people to use the car seat for transporting their kids in the car, not using it a place for their child to sleep or for other purposes. Minimize the time, if you have a car seat that tests poorly, minimize the time that the child spends in the seat.

CHETRY: All right, Jeff Gerhart, bringing our attention to something and we appreciate it. Thanks for being with us. Also we want to let you know that CNN did reach out to the manufacturers of the car seats for comment. We have not gotten any responses yet but when we do, we'll bring them to you. And you can also find the results from the ecology center's study on their Web site which is healthycar.org. And so, putting all this into perspective now is Dr. Gupta and I wanted to ask you because it's one of those things that you just worry about so much as a parent, picking the best car seat, checking out the consumer reports, figuring out which ones are best and now we have yet another thing to worry about which is the possibility of exposure to some pretty bad chemicals.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah and hopefully we can put your mind at a little bit of ease here with regard to some of these things. First of all, a few of the things that Jeff is talking about have been out there for some time, are absolutely true and that is that children can be more susceptible to some of these chemicals than adults. We know that in very, very high concentrations, toxic concentrations, some of the symptoms for example a child may suffer as migraines, cancer, very rarely even death. A couple of the substances, as well. Remember, kids are in car seats, they're sort of touching everything. Thalates (ph) is one of the substance in our concern, also the bromides, which make up this fire retardant stuff. That's also of concern, as well.

We really want to dig into the healthycar.com report. This is what they specifically say with regard to the car seats. They say that it could potentially cause allergic or other acute reactions, birth defects, impaired learning, liver toxicity and cancer. So we took some of that, went to several different organizations around the country, including the American Academy of Pediatrics and started to get a consistent answer back, which is, this is really of no concern because the doses that we're talking about are very, very low. As Jeff, himself pointed out, these substances are ubiquitous. They are really everywhere. Why haven't we all gotten very high rates of cancer as a result, good points that they made. Dose makes the poison is what one of the people told us. The American Academy of Pediatrics has an environmental studies division. We talked to that chairman specifically and they said, he said specifically I can't think of a scenario short of a child literally eating the car seat where this would be a problem. So, while it's something out there and if you test it the way that Jeff did, you're going to find some levels, but really not a toxic issue at all, as it turns out for children.

CHETRY: The interesting thing, though is that you hear about lead. Your kids are in many cities forced to get tested for lead exposure. We hear about it all the time on things like mini blinds. I didn't know they still could put lead in things kids are around like car seats.

GUPTA: It really has to do with dosing and some of it has to do with the form of lead as well. There are different forms of lead that are going to be more toxic and be absorbed more readily into the body. So you're right, probably there's some car seats may have slightly less concentration but, really, we're talking about very small concentrations and smaller concentrations as opposed to high and low. So it's just small. And, again, Kiran, we talked to lots of different people about this. I was worried about it. I'm sure you were as a mother, as well. The numbers just aren't there to make this of significant concern.

CHETRY: So Sanjay Gupta helping us put it in perspective again. Healthycar.org if you want to check out and see where your car seat ranks just for your own piece of mind. Thanks Sanjay.

GUPTA: Thank you.

CHETRY: John.

ROBERTS: Fascinating. A lot of things that I never even thought about.

Oil prices are down, but gas prices are up. Why? Ali Velshi is minding your business. Coming up next, he'll have the story.

And raise a Duff's beer to America's most famous animated family. The Simpson's celebrate a milestone. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING. The most news in the morning is on CNN.

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ROBERTS: Well, just say doh and get ready to raise a Duff's beer to American's first family of dysfunction. This weekend the Simpson's reach a milestone as the 400th anniversary, 400th episode rather. The show has been on the air since 1989. There are only four shows in all of television history that have produced more episodes, "Gunsmoke" with 633, "Lassie" with 588, "The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet", 435 and "Bonanza" at 430. So they are right up there. This Sunday night the "Simpson's" will air two episodes to put the mark right at 400. Do you believe it Kiran?

CHETRY: No, I love it, I think it's hilarious. Thanks John.

Well, 54 minutes past the hour now and I guess if they had a "Gunsmoke" box set you would never leave your house, 633 episodes, how would you ever get through that? Ali Velshi joins us now. He's minding your business and we're talking once again about how a year ago oil cost more and gas prices were lower.

ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right and we use too much gas. So in fact, you would save a lot of gas if you had the box set of "Gunsmoke" because you wouldn't drive around. Let's talk, we'll show you what we're talking about. We've been talking about this refinery problem for a long time, how there are a lot of refineries off line. Last year, this is not a year over year comparison, last year when oil was at its highest in July at $79 a barrel, gas was $3.03 a gallon and people said, well oil was high, gas must be high. Now we have gas at $65 a barrel and at last check, our oil, sorry we had oil at $65 a barrel and gas at $3.11 a barrel and in fact, it's even up. The national price of gasoline is up from there now, $3.13. It doesn't make sense. The math of that doesn't work, right?

CHETRY: There is a refinery issue. VELSHI: We're $14 cheaper for a barrel of oil and we're paying more for gasoline and that's why we're looking at the refineries. The issue here is that there are a number of refineries that are not working right now. They're out of commission. They're under repair. At any given time a refinery is going to be under repair, because we are using them at full tilt, but so many of them are under repair right now that it's led some people to say, "A" can we do something about this, "B", is there any sort of nefarious will behind this? Is there some idea that, wow, our refineries don't work and we make a lot more money for our product.

There's no suggestion that is necessarily true, but there are some people saying, why aren't these refineries working? These oil companies make more money than anyone else, why don't you keep the refineries working at full tilt? So there's some questions as to what they're going to do about it. On Congress there are calls for an investigation into "A" why this is happening, "B" can the government do anything to make these oil companies get their refineries working properly or expand them. The flip side of that is that the government's level, the EPA, where companies have to get these refineries approved and they're not getting approved. So, chicken and egg situation, we're not quite sure. That is where the problem is right now. You're paying more for gas because of refineries.

CHETRY: We'll talk about it more, possible solutions in the next hour, Ali, thank you.

And coming up, a live report from Arwa Damon. She's embedded with troops in Iraq on the hunt, again, for the three missing soldiers.

Plus, it's a whale watch continuing. They're trying something new this morning in the ongoing fight to save two stranded humpback whales. They need to try to coax them out of the fresh water back into the ocean. All that coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

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