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Gas Prices; Search Continues for 3 Missing U.S. Soldiers in Iraq; Bill Richardson in the Ring
Aired May 21, 2007 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.
I'm Tony Harris.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: And hi, everybody. I'm Heidi Collins.
Watch events come in to the NEWSROOM live on a Monday morning. It is May 21st.
Here's what's on the rundown.
U.S. troops search a canal. The latest lead on three soldiers missing in Iraq. The men believed held by al Qaeda-linked terrorists, if they are still alive.
HARRIS: Away they go. Gas hits a new record high, $3.19 a gallon on average around the country. Drivers fume. Will they park?
COLLINS: It could stop a woman's menstrual cycle indefinitely, and it's expected to get government approval tomorrow.
A new birth control pill in the CNN NEWSROOM.
Gas fumes. Prices climb, frustrations grow, and the underlying problems worsen. Here's a look at where things stand today now.
The national average for unleaded gasoline sets yet another record, just over $3.19 a gallon. That's according to AAA motor club.
The price reflects a 34 cent jump from just one month ago. And brace yourself, oil prices rising again today.
The concern, supplies cannot keep up with the summer driving season. Analysts say part of the problem, not enough refineries, especially in the U.S. Some have been shut down for planned maintenance, and others by unexpected problems.
HARRIS: With gas prices so high, you would think more Americans would be buying hybrid cars. So why isn't everybody driving one?
Ali Velshi is here to tell us.
All right, Ali. Why not more hybrids on the roads? ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's -- you know, it's a good question. I guess what it comes down to, Tony, is these hybrids, it costs more to drive a hybrid, typically, than it does to drive a normal gasoline car, even with the price of gas, because of the extra money in actually buying a hybrid.
What's happened is the folks who have bought them until now have been those people who have really wanted to do their part for the economy. Now, with three bucks-plus per gallon of gas, it starts to become an economic decision. And I think for most people the decision to move into saving gas has got to be an economic one.
While we'd like to think everybody is doing it for the right reasons, take a look at that. Now, this is in the last eight days or so. $3.05 used to be the record for what we paid for gas, now all the way up to just about $3.20.
There are some thinking that above three bucks a gallon on a sustained basis, people start to make new decisions about the kind of cars they drive or their transportation needs. So, what it has to be -- and people get mad when I say this -- but gas has to be at a higher level on a sustained basis in order for people to change their consumption.
We haven't had a new refinery built in the United States in 30 years. And fundamentally, we're not getting any more built. The EPA doesn't like to approve them, people don't like them hanging around. They're expensive to build, and the refinery companies are doing fine with all of us buying their products, even though supply is tight.
HARRIS: Yes. What are the top sellers if you're at that point where the price point of a gallon of gas...
VELSHI: You going to make that decision?
HARRIS: Yes, I'm thinking about it. I'm really thinking about it.
VELSHI: Well, the number one seller is a Toyota Prius, obviously. That's been the -- that's sort of the granddaddy of these cars.
The thing to remember, though, is that, you know, these tax credits that you get for buying them do phase out. So you'll want to talk to a dealer and your accountant before making one of those purchases.
The Toyota Highlander is the number two. The Honda Civic Hybrid, which was actually out before the Toyota Prius back in the day.
Number three, Lexus RX 400h. A little SUV is there. And the Ford Escape, also an SUV, on the top five list.
There are many, many more models around there, Tony, than there used to be. So you do actually have choices. Some of them come with deals. You know, if you think -- if your bet is that gas prices are going to stay above $3 a gallon...
HARRIS: Yes.
VELSHI: ... and you're a certain type of driver, this might actually work out for you. They feel great, by the way. I don't know if you've spent any time in hybrids.
HARRIS: No. I'm going out this week.
VELSHI: They're very quiet. They really feel good. But the benefit for the hybrid tends to be for the urban driver, the stop-and- go driver. If you drive distances all the time, you won't see as much of the benefit.
HARRIS: All right, Ali. I know you'll be following this story for us.
VELSHI: Absolutely.
HARRIS: Appreciate it. Good seeing you this morning.
VELSHI: OK.
HARRIS: Ali Velshi.
COLLINS: Grim duties in Iraq. U.S. forces search a canal for three missing comrades. It is the latest development in a nine-day hunt that has turned up few, if any, significant leads.
CNN's Arwa Damon is embedded with troops on that search. She is joining us now via broadband.
Arwa, what led search teams to this particular canal?
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Heidi, what led to this canal was a tip. Although, before we get to that, let's talk about where the tips led U.S. soldiers just today.
They, in fact, did detain at least 14, 15 individuals. That was based on tips, searches going on in the area. And the U.S. military is continuing to use every means at its disposal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAMON (voice over): With roads too dangerous to travel, Charlie Company air assaults in.
CAPT. SHANE FINN, U.S. ARMY: I need them to -- I want them to clear (INAUDIBLE) on Janabi Run (ph). I want them to search for any trigger men.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
FINN: And then see if they can observe anything suspicious in the canal itself.
DAMON: The mission, to search Janabi Run (ph) canal, the second canal the U.S. military has drained in the hunt for three kidnapped soldiers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to make sure that we're looking for any signs of human remains or any type of equipment that could be collected on the side, a break. Looking for anything that appears to be uneven on the sides of the banks of the canal. That's the best we're going to be able to do since the water sea level is still high.
DAMON: A tip came about three days ago from these local farmers, Shias in this predominantly unfriendly Sunni area. "We were standing on the bridge there, and we saw two heads float by," this farmer says. "So we went to the Iraqi and American base and notified them."
FINN: Certainly looking in the canal, you're looking for something horrific. But as we search for caches in the reed lines that we just crossed, maybe we're looking far piece of equipment or a map or information that could lead to finding these guys.
DAMON (on camera): This area is about seven, eight miles from where the attack took place, but it's significant. This very same company found the body armor belonging to one of the 101st soldiers who was kidnapped and then murdered last year in the reed line running alongside this canal.
(voice over): The men find shell casings...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 76254. That's a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Dragging on.
DAMON: ... possibly linked to sniper attacks on U.S. soldiers.
Pull sandbags out of the canal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of my NCOs pulled that out of the canal, but it just gave the appearance of something we're kind of looking for.
DAMON: Then, trapped in this litter, a soldier spots what looks like the sole of an American boot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Try your best to limit the fingerprints.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Damn.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just bring that up here anyway, just in case.
FINN: This is definitely not an American soldier's boot. So, this is a shoe. The search continues.
You want to find the clues, because you want so badly to return these soldiers to their families. But by the same token, you don't want it to be that boot, because then it could mean other things. So, I'm not sure if I'm relieved or happy right now, or sad. I don't know.
DAMON: At the end of the mission, Finn's final call to headquarters, NSTR, nothing significant to report. The mixed emotions and physical fatigue they will put aside until their soldiers are found.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DAMON: Today, soldiers of the 123 Stryker Battalion crossed the Euphrates River, also following a tip. That tip was that this area housed the relatives of individuals believed to be linked or associated with the attack. But again, came up with nothing.
There is a growing sense of frustration amongst the soldiers as the days do go by -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Boy, it is just an exhaustive search, as you can tell from your video, Arwa.
I do wonder, though -- we've heard over the weekend from military commanders that they do believe at least two of the three soldiers are still alive. Do you feel like they're getting any closer to finding them?
DAMON: Well, Heidi, I spoke both with the brigade commander here, Colonel Mike Kershaw (ph), and with the battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Enfante (ph), and they both believe that they are, in fact, getting closer. Colonel Kershaw (ph) saying that they were getting even more intelligence, more leads, that they are detaining even more individuals. And Colonel -- Lieutenant Colonel Enfante (ph) saying that as more areas were searched, at least now they were able to determine which areas the soldiers were not in. And they were able to better narrow and focus their search.
So, there is a certain sense of optimism, especially every single time a mission goes out the door. But again, time is running by very, very fast -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Yes.
All right. CNN's Arwa Damon, live via broadband.
Arwa, great job. Thank you.
HARRIS: Bill Richardson in the ring. The New Mexico governor officially launches his campaign for president today.
Here's CNN's Candy Crowley, part of the best political team on television.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Hi, guys. Sorry we're late. We got stuck in the snow. I actually helped push.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It is march in Iowa. Bill Richardson's first trip here. He embraces the obvious.
RICHARDSON: Do I have thousands of advisers? No. I've got one. And I try to fire him every day. He's back there. He's not even listening to me.
CROWLEY: This is not your rock star campaign.
RICHARDSON: I was called "inelegant" recently. Maybe that's adequate.
CROWLEY (on camera): I'd love to know the definition of inadequate. How did you take that?
RICHARDSON: Well, I think -- I think the way I dress, maybe. I'm always battling with my weight.
CROWLEY (voice over): The average Joe (INAUDIBLE) masked what is arguably, perhaps indisputably, the best resume in the race -- congressman for 14 years; ambassador to the U.N.; Secretary of Energy; governor; diplomatic troubleshooter in North Korea, Sudan, Iraq, helping negotiate the release of hostages.
RICHARDSON: I've actually done some of these things that everybody talks about. I've engaged in cease-fires with bad guys, I've released American prisoners, American servicemen.
CROWLEY: He's an Energizer Bunny type known more for pragmatism than vision, a problem fixer with an aggressive style.
LESLIE LINTHICUM, "ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL": He's been dinged for his -- sort of his demeanor, which is kind of like King Bill. You know, sometimes he kind of acts like, you know, the ruler of New Mexico.
CROWLEY: He was re-elected with 69 percent of the vote.
Richardson is the son of a Mexican mother and an American father, as Latinos are a growing voice in American politics. A New Mexican at a time his party is making inroads in the interior west. But it's a struggle to find national limelight, though he believes time and resume are on his side.
RICHARDSON: Keep an eye on me. And keep your powder dry. I'm going to be around a lot.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: And CNN will have live coverage of Governor Bill Richardson's announcement from Los Angeles. It is expected around 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time, right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: Want to go ahead and get a check on weather now. Rob Marciano is back there.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HARRIS: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the no-period pill. New birth control offers women a new option. But is it safe?
We'll check it out in the NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: You're doing that interview, right?
Also, the immigration debate the focus in the Senate today. Not everyone is ready to sign on to a new proposal just yet. We'll have the latest.
HARRIS: Unarmed driver shot dead. New York City police now investigating one of their own -- in the NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: And it takes a village. Children get a new lease on life, and they're not the only ones reaping the benefits.
You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Well, it's being called the first of its kind, a new birth control pill that could stop a woman's menstrual cycle indefinitely. The FDA is expected to announce approval for Lybrel tomorrow. Analysts are predicting a tremendous demand, but some people are a little bit concerned.
CNN Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here now to break it all down for us.
I can understand that concern. Is it really safe to block a woman's period indefinitely?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are some concerns about that, because some people say, you know, maybe your period's there for a reason, maybe your period is there and women need to have it. So, before we get to the concerns, let me tell you a little bit about this pill.
It's called Lybrel. And as Heidi said, it's expected to come out tomorrow. It contains two hormones that are normally found in birth control pills, so these hormones have both been out for many decades.
It would be very low doses of these hormones. And so Wyeth, the company that makes it, says that this pill is safe and effective.
Now, the difference is, is that in traditional pills, women would take the pills for three weeks, and then take a one-week break. And the three weeks, and a one-week break. But this pill, you take the pill every single day. There is no break.
Now, one of the concerns is just, is it OK to stop a natural process, is it OK long term? The answer is they don't really know. No one's taken this pill long term.
And the other concern has to do with missed periods. When a woman misses her period, it's a warning sign. Maybe she's pregnant.
COLLINS: Yes.
COHEN: That's always good to know. Or maybe there's a health problem.
COLLINS: Yes.
COHEN: If you're not getting your periods to begin with, you can't get that warning sign.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, and then I also wonder, in the studies that they did, I'm not sure how big they were, did this pill stop actually stop the menstrual cycle for every woman that was involved in the study?
COHEN: It didn't, not at all. And that actually is a bit of concern when you think about, gee, how is this pill going to sell once women start taking it?
In studies, nearly one out of five women dropped out of the study. They didn't want to be in the study anymore because they had breakthrough bleeding and spotting. In other words, instead of having scheduled bleeding, they had unscheduled bleeding. So, certainly, this doesn't stop the period for everyone.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, does it stop immediately once you start taking the pill? Or how long does it take?
COHEN: It doesn't. And that's another issue that women may find out as they start taking this pill.
It can take months. As a matter of fact, when women in these studies took this pill, after six months 59 percent of them had stopped getting their period. But that meant that almost 40 percent were still having some bleeding.
So, it takes a couple of months for this to work. Those numbers got better after a year. But it raises the question, Heidi, so your gynecologist prescribes this to you, and you're taking it for a couple of months, and you're still getting your period, what's the point?
COLLINS: What's the point? Yes.
COHEN: And it's more expensive than sort of the older birth control pills that have been out there for a long time.
COLLINS: All right. Well, it sounds like you've got to wait and watch this one for a little while.
COHEN: Right, you've got to watch it.
COLLINS: Yes. All right. Thank you.
COHEN: OK. Thanks. Thanks.
COLLINS: Elizabeth Cohen, appreciate it. HARRIS: Still to come this morning, a fierce battle raging right now in Lebanon. That country's army on the attack against Islamic militants.
See it in the NEWSROOM.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Ben Wedeman in Jerusalem. We'll bring you the latest on the violence in Gaza, coming up in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A new flare-up of fighting in Lebanon in a battle that's been raging for hours. Lebanese troops are pounding Islamic militants linked to al Qaeda. The battle is taking place near a Palestinian refugee camp outside the northern city of Tripoli. Lebanese officials say one of the militants killed in the fighting was a suspect in last year's failed plot to bomb trains in Germany. Dozens of deaths, including at least eight civilians, are reported in two days of fighting.
HARRIS: Attacks and counterattacks. Israel steps up retaliation for rocket attacks by militants in Gaza. Deadly new air strikes today.
The latest from CNN's Ben Wedeman, in Jerusalem.
And Ben, are we looking at the possibility of a major Israeli incursion into Gaza?
WEDEMAN: It's a possibility, Tony, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen just yet. It does appear that those rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel are diminishing in number. There were only three today, compared to five times that number yesterday.
And certainly the Israeli army is very hesitant to go into Gaza, because it's well known that Hamas has spent well over a year now digging tunnels and bunkers, in many ways emulating the tactics of Hezbollah, that Hezbollah used in Lebanon last summer. And therefore, the Israeli army is very hesitant to send in a large number of troops into Gaza, where they would have to go basically house to house in crowded refugee camps trying to root out the members of Hamas. And therefore, it does appear for the time being, Tony, that they're going to just stick to these air strikes.
Now, if for any reason the missile fire from Gaza intensifies again, if, for instance, they hit other areas -- for instance, the city of Ashkelon, which is right -- just north of Gaza, the Israeli security cabinet yesterday made it clear that it will consider what they describe as more drastic measures -- Tony.
HARRIS: And Ben, is the latest cease-fire -- I've lost count of how many we're talking about here -- between Fatah and Hamas, is it holding?
WEDEMAN: Yes. We're on cease-fire number six in the last 10 days, Tony. It does seem to be holding.
Certainly, Hamas seems to be completely distracted by these fairly regular Israeli air raids, attacks targeting its militants. So, it appears for the time being the truce is holding, although I spoke with somebody in Gaza who said that it's widely believed that if Israel relents, then those clashes between Fatah and Hamas will start all over again -- Tony.
HARRIS: Look at these pictures. CNN's Ben Wedeman for us in Jerusalem.
Ben, thank you.
COLLINS: A famous tall ship badly damaged by fire. Is it beyond repair?
Saving history, coming up in the NEWSROOM.
HARRIS: Progress in the fight against wildfires. That major blaze in the Southeast just about contained this morning. An update coming your way in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Bottom of the hour.
Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to the CNN NEWSROOM.
I'm Tony Harris.
COLLINS: And I'm Heidi Collins.
Hi, everybody.
It's front and center in the Senate. A major overhaul in immigration law up for debate today. But the deal isn't sitting well with everyone.
CNN White House correspondent Elaine Quijano takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Battered by critics on the left and right, top Bush administration officials staunchly defended the immigration deal they helped broker with members of the Senate.
CARLOS GUTIERREZ, COMMERCE SECRETARY: It is not amnesty. We've said it's not amnesty. We have the impression -- I have the impression that perhaps for some people the only thing that would not be amnesty is mass deportation.
QUIJANO: The White House's defensive posture is due in large part to conservative Republicans who argue that offering illegal immigrants any chance at citizenship amounts to amnesty. REP. BRIAN BILBRAY (R), CALIFORNIA: The worst thing you can do if you try to control illegal immigration is reward 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens with -- with citizenship and permanent residency.
QUIJANO: But the deal's backers insist people who have broken the law by entering the United States illegally will face punishments.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: I think we've squared this circle. We've had real penalties. We've put people at the back of the line.
QUIJANO: The deal is also drawing criticism from some Democrats, who say it places limits on family reunification in favor of the needs of future employers.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: It does not promote family reunification and, instead, gives, apparently, a preference to those specific skills. So that is a troubling feature of it, and may be changed on the Senate floor.
QUIJANO: Despite disagreements, a key Republican predicted enough GOP support in the House to pass the measure.
BILBRAY: I think it passes if big business is able to basically put the pressure on and say we do give Republicans a lot of money. We want you to deliver us the cheap folk.
QUIJANO (on camera): The Bush administration stresses the legislation also includes increased security measures, including more agents patrolling the U.S./Mexico border.
Debate on the issue starts in the Senate on Monday.
Elaine Quijano CNN Crawford, Texas.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
HARRIS: The White House strikes back.
The target?
Former President Jimmy Carter, speaking about the Bush presidency with the "Arkansas Democrat-Gazette."
Carter had this to say: "I think as far as the adverse impact on the nation around the world, this administration has been the worst in history."
Carter has been an outspoken critic of President Bush, but the White House has usually refrained from a tit for tat response. Not this time.
White House Spokesman Tony Fratto on Carter's quote: "I think it's unfortunate and I think he is proving to be increasingly irrelevant with these kinds of comments." COLLINS: A major wildfire just about under control right now in the Southeast. The Florida Department of Forestry says a blaze along the board with Georgia is now about 90 percent contained. This is big, since on Friday, I believe, it was about 65 percent contained. So good progress.
People who had to evacuate, though, were allowed to go back home over the weekend. But a state official told them be ready to pack up and leave if the fires flare up again. And that is always the catch- 22, if you will, those hot spots just seem to flare (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
HARRIS: Did you take a look at some of this?
COLLINS: Yes.
HARRIS: You did.
COLLINS: We went up in a Blackhawk. I was telling Rob about it when he was going into makeup.
HARRIS: Yes.
COLLINS: And it's amazing what you can see...
HARRIS: Rob was in makeup?
COLLINS: Yes. He does that.
HARRIS: Hmmm.
ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: I could use a little bit more powder, probably.
(LAUGHTER)
MARCIANO: No, here's the thing, Tony. You know, Heidi gets flown down there in a Blackhawk, you know?
HARRIS: Yes.
MARCIANO: I rent a car. I slug through the fire lines. And, you know...
HARRIS: And you spent about two weeks down there huh?
MARCIANO: Yes, something like that.
HARRIS: She's there on the Blackhawk a day and back out.
Oh, wow!
MARCIANO: Well, anyway, didn't we...
COLLINS: This is so much a bunch of you know what -- words we can't use in television -- I can't even believe it. So... MARCIANO: Anyway, I do look forward to seeing some of that footage. I think that's going to be really cool.
COLLINS: Yes. We're going to put that together for you, because it's an unbelievable perspective from being up there...
HARRIS: Yes.
COLLINS: ... and just seeing how vast it is.
MARCIANO: I think it's something we'll probably be touching base with for several months now, Heidi...
COLLINS: Yes.
MARCIANO: ... because it's so dry there, we're getting an early start to fire season.
(WEATHER REPORT)
COLLINS: Officer under investigation -- for the second time in six months an NYPD shooting incident making headlines.
CNN's Mary Snow now with the story.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is how it ended -- a minivan charred. Inside, the driver, 41-year-old Fermin Azru, unarmed and dead, fatally shot by an off-duty New York City police officer.
Distraught family members gathered in the Bronx near the scene calling for justice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cop that shot my father, he needs to pay for all of this, because he left me and my brother here alone.
SNOW: It happened late Friday night. Police say Azru slammed head-on into a parked car and left the scene.
Raphael Lora, an off duty police officer, was on foot and confronted the driver at a nearby intersection. Exactly what happened next is the subject of investigation.
Witnesses, according to police, say the officer was at the driver's side, the door was open and the car lurched forward. One man parking a car nearby says he heard the gunshots.
GERALDO REYES, WITNESS: When we parked, we turned off the car and we hear -- that's when I -- we heard the gunshots. It was like six, seven gunshots.
SNOW: Police say the off duty officer fired five times, hitting the driver once in the lower back and striking the car with the other four bullets. They say the officer has never fired his gun while on duty. He's been on the force since 1999.
Police say that after he was shot, Azru kept driving for two more blocks before his minivan jumped a curb and went up in flames.
The shooting comes at a time when the use of deadly force by New York City police is under intense scrutiny. Last November, five plainclothes officers opened fire on a car of three unarmed men, killing Sean Bell hours before his wedding. Two others were seriously injured.
A grand jury has indicted two officers on manslaughter charges in that November searching. Both officers have pled not guilty.
This latest shooting is being investigated by police and the Bronx district attorney's office. The National Action Network, founded by the Reverend Al Sharpton, says it will do the same.
KIRSTEN TROY, NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK: He lost his life as a result of an impromptu, impetuous, and, in our estimation, unnecessary action by an off duty police officer.
SNOW: Officer Lora could not be reached for comment, but the Patrolman's' Benevolent Association, which is providing a lawyer for him, said in a statement: "Those who make snap judgments without all the facts do not serve the best interests of the city or those involved in the incident."
Officer Lora has been placed on desk duty, as the Bronx attorney's office takes a lead on the investigation.
Mary Snow, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COLLINS: But we want to get these pictures to you right now, live pictures, in fact, coming in from Tripoli.
We've been telling you about this story a little bit this morning, and some of the activity that's happened over the weekend, as well.
We know that at least 27 Lebanese soldiers were killed, 39 were wounded, in several battles with Islamic militants linked to Al Qaeda, again, just outside of Tripoli. This is according to Lebanese Army sources.
Let's go ahead and listen in.
We've been hearing gunfire for the last few minutes here.
(VIDEO OF ATTACK ON PALESTINIAN REFUGEE CAMP)
COLLINS: So we are just listening in to some of these gunshots and gunfire that you can hear.
We want to just remind you where this all began. Well, actually, the history goes way, way back.
but this latest round of gunfire and explosions that we've been witnessing seemed to be sparked early on Sunday when the Lebanese internal security forces raided a building, again, in this neighborhood that's just north of Tripoli, seven miles outside of it.
Apparently, Army sources are telling us that militants from Fatah al-Islam opened fire on forces, who then returned fire and triggered these clashes in this Palestinian -- near a Palestinian refugee camp.
We -- just a few moments ago -- I'm not sure if we have this video quite yet but, also, we're listening in to several explosions that went off.
Let's go ahead and see if we can cue that up. (VIDEO OF ATTACK ON PALESTINIAN REFUGEE CAMP)
COLLINS: It's hard to tell, but it actually sounds like a series of gunfire -- more gunfire going off here in this neighborhood, again, just seven miles outside of Tripoli.
Obviously, the U.S.-supported government of Prime Minister Siniora -- there was a bomb that also went off over the weekend that killed some people. Obviously, this is all rolled into the same conflict that we've been covering for quite some time.
HARRIS: Well, it is -- and, Heidi, you've been alluding to it. It is a pretty significant development, these developments over the weekend.
As you mentioned, this is a Palestinian refugee camp. The group Fatah al-Islam certainly within the confines of that refugee camp. And it's interesting that at this time, one of the questions we may be asking again and getting an answer to at some point this morning is why this time?
Why has the Lebanese Army chosen to confront this group, a known organization -- why has the Lebanese Army chosen to confront this group at this time?
It comes with some risk. The law of the country, I understand, is that the Lebanese Army cannot enter the refugee camp. So our understanding is that a lot of the action is taking place on the edge of the camp, as you take a look at these live pictures.
So there are a number of broader implications of this action that's going on right now. You mentioned the government of Fouad Siniora, the U.S.-backed government.
And one of the questions here is what kind of -- it is a weak government. We all know that.
What are the implications of this kind of action?
What kind of activity is going on inside that camp?
We've mentioned that this is a group that is said to be linked to Al Qaeda.
But what other organizations?
What other links to other groups are we talking about here?
Is this group, Fatah al-Islam, in any way linked to Syria? Hamas?
We've mentioned Al Qaeda.
What other insurgent groups might be operating from within the confines of this camp?
So there are all kinds of implications for the action that you see here. And, again, the most pressing question, of course, is, you know, the Lebanese Army taking this opportunity, at this moment, over the course of the weekend, to confront this group right now.
COLLINS: And, obviously, that's at the heart of it all, the Lebanese -- Lebanon's government, of course, led by anti-Syrian politicians; as you just mentioned, Prime Minister Fouad Siniora.
In fact, a lot of this quite possibly linked to tensions that resulted from the 2005 assassination of former Prime Minister Hariri. The U.N. Security Council actually trying to pass a resolution now that would force the enforcement of the international tribunal to try the suspects in that Hariri assassination...
HARRIS: Yes.
COLLINS: ... because none of that has happened as of yet, either.
One of the other things to point out in all of this as we watch this video is this -- that one of the militants that was killed in these clashes on Sunday was actually a suspect in last year's failed plot to bomb two German trains. We reported that to you a little earlier today. Again, this according to Lebanese internal security forces.
So, as you watch that thick, thick plume of smoke, the conflict and the complications within all of this run deep -- very deep.
I believe that we're going to have Jim Clancy come up in just a few minutes, from CNN International...
HARRIS: Yes.
COLLINS: BLITZER: who's done quite extensive coverage of the conflict here, and talk to us a little bit more about what we're seeing and why now.
HARRIS: And the broader context of it all.
COLLINS: Yes.
HARRIS: Yes.
COLLINS: So we will go ahead and do that. Meanwhile, though, let's listen in just one more time here to what's going on.
Again, live, coming to you live from Tripoli, Lebanon.
(VIDEO OF ATTACK ON PALESTINIAN REFUGEE CAMP)
COLLINS: Again, I just want to remind you of what we're looking at here. These live pictures coming to us from Tripoli, Lebanon. Unbelievable gunfire. And what you're hearing is actually Lebanese troops trying to tighten the siege of this Palestinian refugee camp.
They believe that there is a group that is suspected of having very close ties to Al Qaeda, that they are holed up inside this Palestinian refugee camp. So they are just hammering it with artillery. They're actually calling it, Tony, the worst eruption of violence since the end of the 1975-90 civil war. So, unbelievable what we are watching here live.
HARRIS: Well, Heidi, I think you bring up a -- raise a very good issue.
I mean what is -- what is driving this action right now?
What is the mission?
What is it that the Lebanese Army is attempting to do from the -- from the edges of the camp?
Again, the Lebanese Army cannot, by law, enter the refugee camp.
So what is it that the Lebanese Army is attempting to do?
What is the mission?
What are they trying to accomplish?
What is the intelligence that led to this action over the course of the weekend?
And, of course, we're talking about as many as 40,000 -- upwards of 40,000 Palestinian refugees in this camp. And we're seeing a snapshot of the action where our cameras are trained.
But what are the broader implications for the others in that refugee camp?
And you always ask the question -- you know that there are bad actors in the camp, but what about any safeguards, any precautions for the innocents who may be caught up in all of this?
But amazing pictures of this action right now in Tripoli, Lebanon.
And look at that thick plume of smoke over the skies of Lebanon right now. And, again, this very, very modern, very beautiful country is again finding itself in the grip of more internal division, strife, fighting. And listen again to the gunfire.
(VIDEO OF ATTACK ON PALESTINIAN REFUGEE CAMP)
COLLINS: Again, as we watch these incredible pictures and listen to the even more incredible gunfire, I'm reading here that apparently these are Lebanese Army troops with tanks and armored carriers surrounding this refugee camp -- M-48 battle tanks, if that helps you to understand what you're listening to.
We also have Octavia Nasr on the phone with us right now, who knows the area and this conflict very, very well.
She is coming to us from Doha this morning -- Octavia, tell us a little bit about what are we watching on the screen right now.
OCTAVIA NASR, SENIOR EDITOR, ARAB AFFAIRS: You know, what you're looking at is a picture of Tripoli. This is a major port city in northern Lebanon. And it has been witnessing some fierce fighting between Lebanese Army soldiers and Palestinian refugees -- militant Palestinian refugees -- inside a camp that is called Nahr el-Bared.
Important to tell our audience that Lebanon has about 12 official refugee camps -- Palestinian refugee camps that were set up after the events in the '40s and the establishment of the state of Israel. These are people who left Palestine and were basically given a place to stay in Lebanon.
But since then, they were kept inside camps. They are considered to be the poorest of the country. They are -- their access to the outside world outside those tents is very, very limbed. And throughout the years, these camps have been very controversial because there are arms inside. These groups have links to several -- several groups outside of Lebanon.
And basically what you're seeing now is exactly the result of that. You have those clashes -- they started yesterday -- between the Palestinian refugees, some group that is called Fatah al-Islam. And Fatah al-Islam is considered to be a shoot-off of Fatah, the known Palestinian group. And it is believed that they have links to Al Qaeda.
As a matter of fact, the Lebanese government arrested several people from that camp in connection with violence and terrorism and car bombs throughout Lebanon.
Some people are saying now that those militants came out of the camp in order to lure the Lebanese soldiers into the camp and battle them. And basically that's what happened. And the Lebanese soldiers have taken heavy casualties so far. And, you know, when people saw that things were calming down yesterday, today things raged on. And, as you can see, I mean things are escalating pretty quickly and not many people know what exactly is going on, because usually the Lebanese soldiers stay outside those camps. They do not go inside. And the militants don't come outside.
COLLINS: So...
NASR: So no one really knows for sure what's happening inside the camp right now.
COLLINS: Yes.
Wow!
Then maybe that makes my next question, Octavia, sort of void. I just wonder, in thinking about the original intent of these Palestinian refugee camps, I imagine you have the true refugee who is just scrambling for food and shelter in the middle of all of this, and then you also have the militants inside that same. I wonder what sort of conflicts go on between those two groups, as well, and whether or not, you know, there are quite a -- quite a few innocent people in all of it.
NASR: That is true. Of course. The militants are the minority in those camps. The majority of the people are just poor people that fled their homes, were settled in these camps and basically they married from each other. They have children. And everybody is a refugee. No one is allowed to have the Lebanese citizenship. They are not allowed to go to the regular Lebanese schools. There are many professions in Lebanon that a Palestinian refugee is not even allowed to practice.
So, of course, the majority inside those camps are poor people basically trying to go on with their lives. Some of them say that they dream about the day when they go back to their homeland, which is now Israel. Others say that they would like the Lebanese government to give them citizenship and give them a better life.
Now, within the camps, you're absolutely right, there are clashes going on between, you know, the groups such as the Fatah and Fatah al- Islam. Fatah al-Islam is a militant group that is interested in violence. They've proven that time and again. Several attacks around Lebanon that they were blamed for and several arrests were made in those cases.
So -- so it's very interesting. When you look at those camps, they're spread all over Lebanon. You have some in the north, some in the south, some even in Beirut proper.
COLLINS: Right.
NASR: but they are totally isolated from Lebanese culture. And this is a perfect result of how isolating them really puts the Lebanese government in a position not to know what's going on inside and what kind of armament is going on inside.
COLLINS: Right. And, unfortunately, as usual, the militants are the ones with the guns, whether they're in the minority or not.
Octavia Nasr, we certainly appreciate your help on this one, coming to us live from Doha this morning. Octavia, thanks.
HARRIS: And joining us now as we continue to cover this breaking news story out of Tripoli, Lebanon, is CNN International anchor Jim Clancy; also the anchor of "YOUR WORLD TODAY," seen at 12:00 Eastern time right here on CNN -- Jim, thanks for your time.
As you take a look at these pictures, if you would, in context based upon your knowledge of this area, your covering of the Lebanon story over the years.
JIM CLANCY, ANCHOR, "YOUR WORLD TODAY": You know, some of the worst fighting that I ever covered in Lebanon was right here, as Arafat made his last stand at the end of 1983, at the end of 1983, October and November. You look at these pictures -- and I'm sure the people of Tripoli that -- it's the northernmost major city in all of Lebanon, just a few miles from the Syrian border on the northern end.
You look at all of this and you say well how could this start?
What happened here?
And on its face, this started with a bank robbery. And the police were going after the guys that they suspected. There were members of this Fatah al-Islam group. And they went in to raid their homes. And that's how this fight really started. But it quickly spread.
But, you know, that's the simplistic approach, you know, to this story.
This all started, maybe 20 years ago.
COLLINS: Yes.
CLANCY: More.
Why?
The Palestinian card. The Palestinians can stand up in the Arab world and they can say we are the ones that are oppressed, we are the ones that are deprived of our rights, we are the ones that say we should be able to fight for our rights.
Now, first Syria wanted to use that card and it's always wanted to use that card. The fight -- this group called Fatah al-Islam really began as Fatah al-intifada...
HARRIS: Yes.
CLANCY: and it began with a guy named Abu Mussa, who was really just set up by the Syrians to oppose Arafat. Arafat wouldn't surrender the Palestinian card to Damascus. And, as a result, they wanted to bring him down.
And they tried to kill him here in Tripoli in 1983. He was eventually forced to leave.
But what you have today is Al Qaeda wants to play the Palestinian card in a desperate way. They believe that that is key to their success in spreading the Al Qaeda ideology and the Al Qaeda movement. They need a cause. They can't just go and attack civilians, as they did in the World Trade Center, and claim to be doing anything. But if they could claim to be fighting on behalf of the Palestinians, they think, well, that would give them a lot of credibility.
That's what makes this fight, the siege...
COLLINS: What are they doing in Iraq?
CLANCY: Well, it's opposing the United States, you know, who they backs Israel and therefore, you know, it's fighting against the Israelis' -- it's fighting against...
HARRIS: Well...
CLANCY: ... you know, hegemony -- the U.S. trying to call the shots in the Middle East instead of letting Arabs calling the shots.
HARRIS: Well, what does Fatah al-Islam gain from linking with Al Qaeda?
CLANCY: Well...
HARRIS: ... in Lebanon...
CLANCY: Well...
HARRIS: ... and against that government?
CLANCY: You've got to remember that the guy that founded this group, Shakir al-Abssi, all right, he was a sidekick, he was -- he's about 50 years old. He was much older. But he was involved with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, you know, the number one guy. They were associates.
Now this guy, Shakir al-Abssi, did three years in a Syrian prison for plotting attacks against the state. He didn't carry them out, but was accused of plotting them. And a lot of the anti-Syrian Lebanese look at that and say three years for plotting against the state in Syria?
I mean...
COLLINS: Yes.
CLANCY: ... that's what you get for littering in Damascus.
COLLINS: Right.
CLANCY: Twelve years is what they give a human rights activist. They accuse him of acting against the state.
Why did this guy get off in three years?
Then the Syrians said they lost track of him and he ends up across the border last year in Lebanon. Attacks are carried out. They're blamed on them. The bus bombings up in Bikfaya, which is Gemayel family home, Gemayel being -- you know, the grandfather was the head of the Kataeb -- one of the founders of the Lebanese "democracy."
And then his grandson, Pierre Gemayel was killed in a bombing.
COLLINS: Yes. Yes.
CLANCY: And these bombings were carried out day before the second anniversary Rafik al-Hariri...
HARRIS: Yes.
CLANCY: They captured four guys. They were all Syrians. And they allegedly confessed.
HARRIS: Yes.
CLANCY: Now, Syria still denies that it has anything to do with this group, knows anything about this guy Shakir al-Abssi. They steadfastly deny it. But there's a lot of people in Lebanon that think this group is being used by Syria.
HARRIS: And, Jim, as we come to the top of the hour here -- and we'll give a complete reset of the story to folks who are just joining us at the top of the hour -- but as we -- as we focus in on the pictures that we're seeing now out of this refugee camp, this Palestinian refugee camp, talk to us about these camps themselves as being these -- these breeding grounds for all kinds of potential terrorist groups, for people in these camps to form alliances because their -- because their conditions might be bleak, because they're in the going to get full Lebanese citizenship.
And talk about what that does and what these camps end up becoming.
CLANCY: Well, you know, the camp is a pretty dismal place to live. It's a pretty dismal place for people that have lived their all of their lives.
But when you look at the sheer numbers -- and the best estimates that we have are that this group -- this al-Islam, this Fatah al-Islam -- only has about 200 fighters with them, maybe only 150.
HARRIS: Yes.
CLANCY: Now, they can still put up a heck of a fight. And my understanding is the Lebanese army doesn't even want to go in here.
Because you know what will happen?
They'll get more followers. If they create civilian casualties by going into this camp, they'll create more followers.
There are competing forces within the camp between...
HARRIS: Yes. CLANCY: ... groups like Fatah and Hamas and others. It's a reflection of what's going on on the West Bank, to some extent.
But these people don't want to see this fight. Look at, the bottom line here...
HARRIS: The people...
CLANCY: ... these are bank robbers.
HARRIS: The people...
CLANCY: These are bank robbers.
HARRIS: The people inside -- let's be clear about that. The people inside the camp, they...
CLANCY: They don't want this fight.
HARRIS: They don't want this fight.
CLANCY: No, they don't.
HARRIS: But these...
CLANCY: It's not going to help them.
HARRIS: But these are -- these are desperate -- these are -- these are people living in desperate...
CLANCY: These are ideologues and, obviously, criminals, some of who...
HARRIS: Who are leading the fighting?
CLANCY: Yes. I mean if we believe the Lebanese police -- and I don't think there's any reason not to -- that's how this started.
COLLINS: Right.
CLANCY: That's what we're talking about.
COLLINS: Hey, Jim, do us a favor and stick around.
As we come to the top of the hour here, we're going to reset the story and continue on with these live pictures coming your way from Tripoli, Lebanon.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
COLLINS: once again, we want to begin the hour with these incredible pictures that we've been getting live coming out of Tripoli, Lebanon. A huge gun battle going on. And as we mentioned earlier, some are saying this is the worst violence we've seen basically since the civil war there.
HARRIS: That's right.
COLLINS: We're looking at this refugee camp -- a Palestinian refugee camp seven miles north of Tripoli, where inside, there are suspected Islamist militants fighting the Lebanese Army. And the activity has been unbelievable since yesterday. Still getting in these live pictures and listening to the gunfire that has emerged from all of this.
On the set with us today, we are lucky enough to have Jim Clancy, who is able to break down some of the history surrounding this -- but, again, one of the most remarkable things I've heard you say in the past couple minutes, Jim, is that it all started with a bank robbery and a completely different sort of context and blew up into this.
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