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Lebanese Army Battling Islamists
Aired May 21, 2007 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN "Breaking News."
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Once again, want to begin the hour with these incredible pictures that we've been getting live coming out of Tripoli, Lebanon. A huge gun battle going on. And as we mentioned earlier, some are saying this is the worst violence we've seen basically since the civil war there.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: That's right.
COLLINS: We're looking at this refugee camp, a Palestinian refugee camp, seven miles north of Tripoli, where inside there are suspected Islamist militants fighting the Lebanese army. And the activity has been unbelievable since yesterday. Still getting in these live pictures and listening to the gunfire that has emerged from all of this.
On the set with us today, we are lucky enough to have Jim Clancy, who is able to break down some of the history surrounding this.
But, again, one of the most remarkable things I've heard you say in the past couple minutes, Jim, is that it all started with a bank robbery and a completely different sort of context and blew up into this.
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is certainly the case on the ground. You know, you listen to the Lebanese authorities, that's how it all started. That this came down on Sunday, as they were making a move. They wanted to go against the homes of several members of a group that they suspected of carrying out this robbery and raid their homes. And that's when the shooting started.
Then it quickly spread. The group attacked some soldiers south of Tripoli. And the fighting quickly spread there. More reinforcements were moved in. And very importantly, as they moved through Tripoli, they were cheered by the people because, number one, there's an anti-Palestinian sentiment among the Lebanese. They blame the Palestinians for the civil war.
COLLINS: And yet they set up the refugee camps for them.
CLANCY: Well, you know, they didn't really have much choice, did they? I mean the Palestinians were there. The U.N. moved in. When these camps were set up, nobody expected them to be here 40 years.
COLLINS: Yes. HARRIS: Yes. Here's what I'm struck by, Jim -- and we've got someone on the line here, we'll get to her in just a minute, who is in Tripoli right now as this goes on. But here's what I'm struck by. What is this operation designed to do?
All right. It starts with a bank robbery. Now we've got this incredible fire fight going on. We've got rockets going off. We've got buildings being blown up but we don't know how many people are dead inside of that -- inside of that camp.
So what is this mission designed to ultimately -- missions have to have goals. So what is the goal here? And I'm wondering, as we're sitting here in Atlanta, our domestic viewers around the country might be asking, OK, this is a refugee camp, Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon. The Lebanese government will handle it. Why should we care?
CLANCY: We should care because this all reflects an attempt by al Qaeda or like-minded individuals and groups to spread the al Qaeda ideology, if you will. The al Qaeda militancy on a global scale. And, yes, it started as a bank robber robbery, but, you know, it really started before that with trying to play the Palestinian card.
A lot of the members -- nobody knows for sure the membership list of this group, you know, this Fatah Islam linked to al Qaeda. Nobody knows whether their members are really Palestinians or how many of them are Palestinians. We know that the leader, Shaker al-Abssi, is a Palestinian, but we don't know that they are Palestinians. We need to care precisely because this is a battle -- this is really a fight between a very weak state and a, perhaps, just fledgling new al Qaeda wing in Lebanon.
HARRIS: And we need to care because, as you look at a Palestinian refugee camp like this, and you look at refugee camps around the world, understand that these are the types of people, disaffected people, who might be susceptible . . .
CLANCY: To recruitment.
HARRIS: To recruitment and the al Qaeda message.
CLANCY: Absolutely.
HARRIS: And the message of all these other groups.
CLANCY: You would think so, but you would think that they would have more than 150 or 200 members.
HARRIS: Yes.
CLANCY: There's something about their philosophy that doesn't appeal to the Palestinians. And that's something in everybody's favor.
Now I talked to a source today in Lebanon that says that the real goal here -- as you look at the smoke pouring into the sky -- the real goal here is to contain this group, to corner this group, so that they don't have free reign. Remember that the interior minister and others in Lebanon blame this group for some of the bombings that have been carried out. They don't have all the evidence but in a, you know, series of bus bombings that were carried out on February 13th against busses in north Lebanon, in the northern areas of Lebanon, they allegedly caught four Syrian members of this group who confessed to carrying them out.
HARRIS: Yes.
All right, Jim, we want to get to -- we want to have you stand by for just a moment. I believe, Heidi, we have someone on the line who is actually in Tripoli right now.
COLLINS: We do. I think Maya Halabi is on the line. She is a resident of Tripoli.
Want to find out -- Maya, if you can hear me . . .
MAYA HALABI, TRIPOLI, LEBANON, RESIDENT: Yes.
COLLINS: Tell us a little bit about what you are seeing and hearing on the ground there now.
HALABI: Right now we can hear a lot of bombing and there's a lot of sounds like guns and so on. I just cannot see the smoke from my home. But on TV, I can see a lot of smoke, black smoke, going up. And I can hear the sounds more clearly, of course. I'm about 16 kilometers away from the camp. So, of course, the sounds are not very clear.
COLLINS: It would be interesting to understand from your perspective, Maya, as a resident of Lebanon, and someone who reads the papers, watches television there and is very familiar, obviously, with the conflicts that have been brewing for years, quite frankly, exactly what you think is going on there today.
HALABI: Today, the north Lebanon is the only effected area. Everybody in Tripoli are just scared because we didn't expect this. We never thought about Fatah Islam at all. And we never knew that there were terrorists in our town.
This is somehow strange because it all started yesterday by the police finding a place with a lot of weapons in it. They robbed a bank. This is how they found out about all this. Fatah Islam is just a terrorist extreme group.
So right now we are like confused. We don't know what's going on, how this happened so suddenly. We are -- we remaining at our home. We're not moving. We're just waiting to see what's going to happen.
COLLINS: So let me just repeat one of the things that you said that I find very interesting, and that is that you were not aware that some of these extremist groups, militant groups, with possible ties to al Qaeda were in that refugee camp. That is not common knowledge for a person who lives in the neighborhood you live in? HALABI: Not at all. We thought that this was all outside Lebanon. Not only outside our town. And to find out that they are in the next block, this is so shocking. We can see on TV the places that we know and say, we didn't expect this. Just looking and seeing, oh, this is the place I know. And you know that in this building there are terrorists, there are weapons, there are guns. This is really scary. We never thought about this.
COLLINS: How close, Maya, are you to exactly what we're seeing on our screen now? Which I understand you to say that you don't know with what we're. But we are looking at an area that is, as I said, about seven miles north of Tripoli. Where would you be?
HALABI: Yes. I'm 16 kilometers away. But today the fights are in the camps. Yesterday they are outside. They were just like next -- the street, my street. They were next to me. Today they're -- it is only in the camps.
COLLINS: Yes. Maya, from our reports here, we know that at least 50 people have been killed or wounded in all of this.
HALABI: Yes.
COLLINS: What does that say to you about this level of violence that, again, I would imagine you have not experienced in many, many years in your area?
HALABI: Yes, of course, this is really -- this is scary because we still -- we are remaining here. And we don't know what's going to happen. It is usually everything happens in Beirut, all the fights, all the wars. And this is the first time we see such violence in Tripoli in the north. So this is somehow new to us and scary and everybody is just waiting to see what's going to happen.
COLLINS: And I think you said, Maya, people just, obviously, staying inside and keeping their children home.
HALABI: Of course.
COLLINS: And safe as they possibly can.
HALABI: Yes.
COLLINS: As all of this goes on around you.
HALABI: Yes.
COLLINS: If anything, we certainly wish you all of the safety that we could possibly wish you in all of this.
HALABI: Thank you very much.
COLLINS: And appreciate so much your perspective as someone who is living in that direct area.
Maya Halabi, thank you, once again. Jim, I find that fascinating, that the people living there really not aware that inside those refugee camps there are these suspected al Qaeda ties, these suspected militants right there in the neighborhood.
CLANCY: Well, in some ways, it's surprising. In other ways, it isn't. Because they usually don't do anything.
COLLINS: So nobody gets hit. Nobody goes in there.
CLANCY: No, they usually don't do anything in their own neighborhood. Remember, the camps, the Palestinians really secondary to this group's aims. You know, they just need a place to hide out and to recruit.
COLLINS: True.
CLANCY: And that's why they're there inside that camp. This is called . . .
COLLINS: But everybody kind of knows that about their M.O., if you will, their motives (INAUDIBLE).
CLANCY: But, look, the average Lebanese, like Miss Halabi, average Lebanese don't pay much attention to the Palestinians. Don't want to. They're refugees. They live lives apart. They're not allowed to work at most jobs, except the most menial. They're not ever given citizenship.
HARRIS: Second class.
CLANCY: Absolutely, second class.
HARRIS: You know, I'm curious to know, just to pick up on that part, how segregated are these camps from the rest? I don't know. I don't want to go to far here and suggest, are they walled off. But you've been to one of these camps.
CLANCY: Sure. I mean, they're not walled off by any stretch of the imagination. And inside them, they know that they're immune from the Lebanese army because of a 1969 agreement. So, I mean, you have some individuals who want to go in and take shelter in those camps.
But as a society, as a community, the Palestinians certainly are free to walk out of the camps and to go to downtown Tripoli or any place that they want to go inside of Lebanon. But, you know, they're going to be questioned about their papers. They're not going to be able to go anyplace and get a job.
HARRIS: Checkpoints?
CLANCY: There are checkpoints. Not as many as there used to be.
HARRIS: OK. I'm wondering about the implications of this for the Siniora government. We mentioned a couple of times this morning that this is a weak government supported -- critics would say propped up by the United States. Something like this happens. And how much increased pressure does it place on this government to be seen as decisive against Islamic militants and to be taking the action that it is taking right now?
CLANCY: You know, Tony, that's a good question. And it's a question that may explain why we're seeing what we're seeing on our screens here. Why would these guys rob a bank and take off into a Palestinian refugee camp?
Precisely because the government's weak. Precisely because they can't follow them in there. Precisely because they know they can probably get away with it in this point in time. Now, what surprises me is the government went in and went after them.
HARRIS: Yes.
CLANCY: This strongly.
COLLINS: Yes. Not a normal mode of action or standard operating procedure, if you will, for them to go in and fight the fight.
CLANCY: This is very surprising to me. And it looks like they are determined to wring the camps, to put the pressure on them, and they will try to force them out in terms of surrendering. Put an end to this group now. That could be, you know, in the interest of a lot of people. And if they are, as charged by some, doing the work of people who want to disrupt the government, to put bombs in civilian areas, to assassinate politicians . . .
COLLINS: Well, that's just it.
CLANCY: You know, this is an important move by the government.
COLLINS: Reading a couple lines here telling us that -- threats are already being made that, you know, if you don't let us be, we're going to take this fight outside of Tripoli. And will spread even more as to what we're seeing right here now.
In fact, I think we want to go ahead and listen in just for a moment again and check on what's happening out there.
HARRIS: Hey, Jim, I'm just wondering, as you listen to this, and the intensity of this battle, what's your overarching thoughts are? Frame (ph) this up for us.
CLANCY: What we are looking at is what could be a crucial, and I can't under -- stress it enough, crucial battle against al Qaeda elements as they attempt to gain a foothold in Palestinian refugee camps where they could recruit people, where they could play the Palestinian card in the whole Arab world. It is something that al Qaeda has wanted to do, not just for years, but really for decades. Arafat refused them that card. Arafat told them, I don't want to have anything to do with you after, you know, the rise of Osama bin Laden.
But today they see with the war in Iraq and other places that they might be able to spread it. For some time, they've been trying to move the group in other areas. The leader of the group that, you know, is involved in this fighting, this Shaker al-Abssi, is a former, you know, co-worker, we can call him, alongside Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. And the fight in this camp is really a test of the Lebanese government's ability to assert its authority.
Will it go in? Possibly not. A lot of people fear that if they go in and create a huge number of civilian casualties, they'll help the recruits effort of al Qaeda. That they want to do is seal them off, corner them. And they will hold their ground in this fight. I suspect a lot of the smoke we're seeing there has been caused by some of the tank fire that's gone in. This group is armed with rocket- propelled grenades and small arms. But they can fight there.
HARRIS: Jim, Jim, that gets me to my question. This is a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon. Sure, there are al Qaeda elements there, but please explain to me how the Lebanese government has seeded this territory to the point where these groups can get the kind of ammunition, the kind of firepower that you're describing, into those camps to fight this intense battle that we're hearing.
CLANCY: Well, first of all, for many, many years, you know, Lebanon -- they had supermarkets that sold -- had specials on dynamite, OK, during the civil war. I mean, the place was awash with arms.
Second of all, you look at this Narberet (ph) refugee camp with the smoke-smeared sky. It's right on the sea coast. Just bring the boat in. If you've got the money, you can get it, you know. And as we noted, this whole fight started with a bank robbery. Maybe they're going to buy some more guns with that money. Because they're available on the market. And, you know, you can buy arms.
HARRIS: Yes.
CLANCY: And this place, very easy to ship them in. Very easy to move around.
HARRIS: I'm curious, over the next couple of days, are we going to be hearing reports, claims, accusations that that theory was involved in this?
CLANCY: Well, I think you might -- we've already heard, you know, the accusation that Syria is behind this group, has a hand in this group. Because, you know, they're more or less the decedents of another group that was called Fatah al Intafatah (ph), that was headed up by a guy that the Syrians set up, Abu Moussa (ph). Abu Moussa has since retired.
But now we have this Shaker al-Abssi that's there fresh out of a Syrian prison, less than a year in this camp, and this is the result we're watching on our television screens as Lebanon fights to assert its sovereignty, its authority here. And, at the same time, you know, it doesn't want to move into a very difficult area, which as, you know, you don't want to move in against Palestinian civilians. There's a broad, deep sense in the Arab world, they've already suffered enough.
HARRIS: Yes.
We know that the Palestinians are Sunni. I'm wondering, as Hamas takes a step back and takes a look at these same pictures, Hamas being Shia, what is Hamas likely to make of this?
CLANCY: Oh, I think you're going to see that Hamas, if they haven't already, is going to come out against this. You've already seen Fatah come out against it. They want to work with the Lebanese authorities to calm this down. They don't want to turn these camps into a battle ground for al Qaeda.
HARRIS: Yes. Wow.
And again, as we do a reset here of the pictures we've been following, boy, the story really -- the story started developing over the weekend. And just dramatic, new pictures inside the last hour here at CNN. You're looking at Tripoli, Lebanon, 5:17 local time.
And the fire, the fire fights, the rockets, the bombardment, it continues at this hour. No word yet of a death toll, but it would be hard to get that at this point as the fighting is so intense right now. We are -- we want to give you just a little bit of the flavor of this. Let's listen in so some of the intensity of the gunfire.
COLLINS: As we continue to watch these pictures coming to you from Tripoli, Lebanon, dare I say, we're hearing -- well, I knew that the moment that I said it I would hear more gunfire. But it seems like it's getting a little bit more sporadic and possibly, hopefully, calming down just a bit. But, again, just as I say it, we hear more gunfire.
Jim Clancy is with us from over at CNN International, has an excellent perspective on the history of all that has happened in Lebanon, and certainly these Palestinian refugee camps, which is just in case you're joining now, that is what you are seeing. And now we've really got some flames there above those tree tops as well. So very much still a volatile situation.
The Palestinian refugee camp where they believe -- the Lebanese army anyway believe that there is quite a contingent al Qaeda-linked group inside. And they're fighting them so that later they apparently don't have to fight them outside of Tripoli.
And, Jim, I know that you were mentioning something about the last time that you saw, "Tripoli on fire like this." Tell us quickly about this.
CLANCY: Yes. Well, this isn't Tripoli. Of course, it's Narberet, but it really does bring back memories of the days when Yasser Arafat tried to negotiate. And he did negotiate a prisoner exchange with Israel. And he was trading eight, I believe, soldiers, Israeli soldiers, in exchange for some 5,000 Palestinians.
And the Syrians were absolutely furious that, once again, Yasser Arafat was negotiating his way out of a complete jam. They had him cornered in the city of Tripoli. And so the Syrians fired missiles. As the Red Cross ship came in, the Syrians tried to sink it. And it just lit the whole port area of Tripoli on fire.
This is a region of Lebanon that saw some intense fighting. Mostly blamed on the Palestinians and the people that wanted to play the Palestinian card. The Libyans got involved. The Syrians had tanks in there carrying out the battles.
But what we are looking at today is the Narberet refugee camp, literally a little city in the northernmost reaches of Lebanon, right along the sea coast, home to some 40,000 civilians. And a small group with an estimated 150 to 200 fighters is involved in this right now. The question is, you're going to see a negotiated settlement. What's going on behind the scenes?
COLLINS: Yes, a big question. And how long something like that could possibly take and how solid it would then be.
CLANCY: But this could go on a long time.
COLLINS: Absolutely.
CLANCY: A long time. Because I would imagine there's plenty of arms inside that camp. You've got the Lebanese army outside that doesn't want to go in. As we've noted several times, they don't want to create more casualties, but they do want to have sovereignty over their country. And they also want to hold responsible those -- this group, after all, is blamed by the anti-Syrian factions of being, number one, in the Syrian camp, the ties are completely murky there. Syria denies it, of course. And it's also charged with carrying out some of the bombings.
COLLINS: Right.
CLANCY: Possibly some of the assassinations that have occurred in Lebanon. Some say they're in the service of the Syrian secret service, the Syrian intelligent services. Again, that's an allegation that is certainly there, that we've certainly heard many times. But at the same time, it is one that links of which we haven't seen the evidence of that. What we do see is the evidence that the group is well armed and prepared to fight.
COLLINS: No question about it. Again, this has been going on since yesterday. You can see on the bottom of your screen there, at least the best count that we have and the number of people who have been killed and injured.
Jim, if you would, stick around with us as we get a quick commercial break here. We'll be back in just a moment. The CNN NEWSROOM with live pictures coming your way from Tripoli, Lebanon, today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN "Breaking News."
COLLINS: Welcome back to the CNN NEWSROOM, everybody. We have been watching these incredible pictures all morning long. We've got Jim Clancy from CNN International by our side to help us sort of break down what we are seeing here.
Tripoli, Lebanon. We've got Lebanon army forces trying to stave off this incredible violence that's happening inside a -- well, there's another explosion there -- a Palestinian refugee camp about seven miles north of Tripoli because, apparently, all resulted from a bank robbery. They went back to do some searches as to what may be inside the homes of those who robbed this bank and found an incredible cache of weapons.
We have been listening to gunfire since yesterday, believe it or not, and now we see this incredible thick plume of smoke in the air and are trying to stay on top of the amount of people that have been killed and injured in all of this. I know we have someone on the line (INAUDIBLE).
HARRIS: Yes. But before we get to Rami Khouri, who is with the American University Baghdad in Beirut, Jim, if you would, sort of big picture this for us. What are we watching in its broader context?
CLANCY: Well, we are watching the Lebanese army try to corner a group that claims ties with al Qaeda. It also claims a Palestinian affiliation, Fatah al Islam, headed up by one Shaker al-Abssi and a man who had served time in a Syrian jail. He served three years in jail for plotting against the state. Some people say that was an awfully light sentence. There's a lot of suspicion on this group for having Syrian ties. But we have yet to see any evidence of it.
But this is an important fight. An important fight for those who believe that al Qaeda wants to play the Palestinian card. That may be decided there at Narberet.
Tony.
HARRIS: All right. And, Jim, let's talk to Rami Khouri right now. He is with the American University of Beirut. And he is also a writer for "The Daily Star" there as well.
Rami, thanks for your time this morning.
Give us your perspective from Beirut. What are you seeing and what are its implications/ramifications?
RAMI KHOURI, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, THE DAILY STAR: (INAUDIBLE) what we're seeing is the inevitable consequence of pressures and trends that have been building up for many years. And you're really seeing three different conflicts coming together. The first is the Lebanese versus the Palestinian camps, which have been a long-running problem in Lebanon. The second one is tensions between Syria and Lebanon, which are more recent. And the third one is the kind of global conflict with Fatah and some of its affiliated groups and now fighting against the American-led war on terror.
So these three different conflicts have all converged together. This is not unsuspected. This has been going on for probably six, nine months now. We've been hearing lots of stories about armed militant Islamist groups, (INAUDIBLE), building up in some of the camps. The Lebanese army doesn't go into camps, according to an agreement drafted (ph) years ago. And now this has come to a head.
Secondly, the Lebanese army wants to drag them out and stop this process before it gets these groups from spreading any further. But they're very well armed. They're ferocious. They're they've got their backs against the war. They're going to fight to the death. So it's a big problem.
COLLINS: Rami, if I may, I understand, obviously, you're with "The Daily Star" there. We spoke just a little while ago to a woman resident of the area who was absolutely shocked to know that inside that refugee camp there were people who were possibly connected to al Qaeda and extremists living in her neighborhood. How much press, how much knowledge does the average resident there have of this?
KHOURI: Well, this -- I mean the actual -- anybody who follows politics would know that there have been these concerns and these reports about militant Islamic radicals in the camps. You know, the link to al Qaeda is really very -- it's really imprecise, as Jim Clancy was saying. These guys -- this group, al Islam, really are very vague. They've come out (INAUDIBLE). They come out an offshoot of a group called Fatah (INAUDIBLE), which itself was a rebellion against (INAUDIBLE). They had linked with Syria. They came out of Syria years ago. Some people say they turned their back against Syria. Others say that they are part of the growing independent small groups of Islamist radical militants who are not necessarily linked to al Qaeda operationally, but certainly share its ideology. And this is one of the consequences of the American-led war on terror, especially this has led to a proliferation of small groups, copycat groups, local groups that are not necessarily all linked in one network. Sometimes they work together; sometimes they don't. This is really a process that's been going on for some years, so nobody should be surprised about this.
HARRIS: In any way unfair to link this to the war on terrorism? Look, these groups, it seems to me, probably would have found some cause, whether it's the Palestinian cause, or something else, to fight over.
KHOURI: Well, you know, people who know these groups and, you know, I focus on Western intelligence and former intelligence people who actually work with these groups in Afghanistan, groups like this who know them intimately and have followed them over the years, and this particular group, they told me, Fatah Al-Islam (ph), is actually the biggest single element of them -- of all these are (ph) Arabs. There are some Palestinians, but this is not a Palestinian mainstream group, and it's wrong to portray it as a Palestinian group. All of the Palestinian groups in Lebanon, the PLO, Hamas, Fatah, all of them have condemned these people. But the camps are out of the jurisdiction of the Lebanese army, and there's a little bit of chaos in some of them. And it's a situation where people (INAUDIBLE) can more or less protect themselves. So I think it's important to understand these guys are much more closely linked to the global network of freelance terrorist groups and militant groups, who speak in the name of Islam, but the vast majority of Islam reject these people as criminals and terrorists, and certainly the vast majority of Palestinians reject them.
CLANCY: Rami, it's Jim Clancy.
And let me just ask you this -- what are your sources telling you? Where is Fatah? And Fatah is in charge of this camp, literally. I know this group is there competing for power with them. But what do they say? Whose side are they going to fight on? Are they going to get in the fight?
KHOURI: Oh, no, Fatah will fight against these guys, there's no doubt about it. The mainstream Palestinian groups do not like these guys. These guys are competition. They speak in a global language of jihadi resistance. They're trying to attract the disenchanted Arabs, Palestinian. They've already attracted some other people from around the region. These are small groups. There are probably 400, 500, 600 people, at most, but they're extremely well-armed. One of the things we've discovered in the last few days is actually was how well armed, how well trained, the amount of armaments, the firepower they have, and their philosophy, their willingness to fight to the death. And they killed over 20 Lebanese army people yesterday, so this is -- these guys are extremely -- they play -- these guys play hardball. They don't play whiffle ball. They play hardball, and they will fight. And this is surprising things that people have found, because they generally have not had a public posture, even when you see them on CNN and Al Jazeera, as you see them now.
HARRIS: Rami, I'm just sort of curious. You talked about this as being three different conflicts. And I'm wondering -- that has been festering for six months or so. So I'm wondering, why now? Jim has talked about the criminal act, the bank robbery that may have started this. But this kind of force, this kind of stand by the Lebanese army, why now? And what is ultimately the mission here?
KHOURI: Well, there's several possible reasons why now. And I think the most important theme that runs through any kind of attempt to come to grips with this process understands that most of the key issues are not clear. We don't know exactly who these guys are working with or against. We don't know exactly what they're trying to do. They're very regularists (ph), they're very, very -- the majority of Lebanese, by the way, think that this group is actually an agent of the Syrian intelligence. They think Syria is unleashing them, just as people accuse Syria of having put up -- exploded the bomb in Beirut yesterday that killed one lady.
And a lot of Lebanese (INAUDIBLE) Syria, and they say that this is happening now because the international court is being set up by the U.N. to try the killers who will be accused of having killed former Prime Minister Hariri, and the Syrians are trying to work to divert attention, and to make a mess in Lebanon. These are accusations that the Syrians deny vigorously. We don't know what the truth is. The other possibility is that these guys started -- this Islam group started to expand outside of the camp. They started to -- they got links in a few places. They have a department or two in Tripoli in the north, and the army stumbled across (INAUDIBLE), revealing the (INAUDIBLE) of the operation, and this set off the fight.
The third possibility is that a Syrian-American diplomat was here two days ago talking to the army people, and some people think that this is part of the American-led war on terror that the United States is trying to find and fight any of these militant criminal groups, terrorist groups, anywhere in the region -- Somalia, Sudan, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, wherever they think these groups can be found. So you can take your choice from any of those options.
COLLINS: Rami, you know, as you mention that, I'm reading some of our wires here to say, according to the Lebanese minister, the militant group's members tried to, as you said, rob the bank yesterday, which we've learned about. But then this, a little bit more significant statement here, and take control of several security strongholds in the north as if they were planning to carry out a major security operation. You kind of alluded a bit to that. Do you know more about a possible planned larger operation?
KHOURI: By this militant group?
COLLINS: Yes.
KHOURI: Well, this is something that, again, has been in the news for several months. There have been warnings about this. There has been various intelligence agencies reports have spoke about this. It's not unsuspected. I think it's just a little bit strange. Why didn't the Lebanese government move more forcefully to nip these guys in the bud before they could develop a little bit of momentum, because there's probably 300, 400 of them now that they're all entrenched.
COLLINS: Rami, so let me just be clear. This being -- this what we're seeing on the screen right now being a larger operation, not something that we could see later and something even bigger than this, this would have been what he was referring to?
KHOURI: No, I think there's fears that these guys and others like them -- there's other groups like this small militant, radical, terrorist groups who use violence against indiscriminately all kinds of targets -- Lebanese, Americans, Israeli, Arab, whatever. There is concern that there has been -- there have been reports that these guys would be aiming to carry out a big operation, whether against -- one of the targets feared was the UNIFIL, the United Nations forces in the south. Other people were worried about carrying out attacks against tourists sites or foreigners. So this has been very much in the air.
And they warned -- this morning (INAUDIBLE) people said that they are threatening to take this fight outside of the Tripoli and outside the camps into other parts of Lebanon. And so this is a real serious problem.
HARRIS: Sure.
KHOURI: And it's not just a problem in Lebanon, by the way. This is a problem that is going to spring up all over the region. HARRIS: OK, which dovetails nicely into what I want to ask you next. Rami. How should we, as we look at these pictures, over a refugee camp, a Palestinian refugee camp, 40,000 or so Palestinian refugees, how should we begin to think about refugee camps not only in Lebanon, but refugee camps around the world, where people are herded, who are disaffected, disenfranchised from their home regions, and how susceptible they might be to the influences of terrorist organizations -- how should we begin to look at these pictures in a broader context?
KHOURI: I think they should spark several reactions or modes of thinking. The first is to really come to grips with the issue that one of the reasons this is going on is because the Arab/Israeli or the Palestinian/Israeli conflict has been allowed to fester for almost over 50 years now, and the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem by Jerusalem is 40 years old in a few weeks. These kind of things cannot be allowed to go on just open-ended. This is the radicalism that they breed; this is what we're seeing.
The second one is any large refugee flow. For instance, what you're seeing out of Iraq now. There's been credible studies done by American groups, like Brookings and others, showing that if you allow these refugee flows to continue and to go on for a long time, you are going to lead to radicalism in these refugee communities, like radicalism that will spill over into the neighboring communities. There will be destabilizing elements all over the place, and this is something that has been seen all over the region. You saw it in Sri Lanka. You saw it in central Europe after the end of the Cold War. So this is nothing peculiar to Arabs or Palestinians, or people in the Middle East.
If there's a refugee problem, you need to address the root cause, solve the refugee problem through a political process, and that will be one way to end this. And the other thing is you cannot let pockets of -- you cannot let refugee camps in other areas be outside the control of the central government, in this case, the Lebanese government.
HARRIS: Yes, I think that's a good point. Rami, let me see. Heidi, any other thoughts? Jim?
CLANCY: You know, Rami, we look at these pictures and a lot of people wonder, what does this mean for Lebanon? Is this a good sign that the government's finally tackled them, or is this a sign that things could get much, much worse, and what we're seeing here is the tip of the iceberg?
KHOURI: Well, as in lot of these things that is good news and bad news. The bad news is that this is not unexpected. People expected this to happen. And it could lead to outbreaks of violence in other parts of the country. The good news is that I think most people in Lebanon, Lebanese as well as Palestinians and others, are happy to see the Lebanese army acting decisively against these kinds of militant radical, terrorists, rogue groups. These are -- these groups, like Fatah Al Islam are not mainstream groups. These are small, fringe radical groups, and the vast majority of Lebanese or Palestinians are happy to see the Lebanese army. And I think the Lebanese generally are happy to see their army and their security forces really acting decisively, because this has been one of the great concerns in Lebanon. The country is volatile. It's turbulent. Anybody who wants to come off and come in and spark off some fighting could usually do so.
So the good news is that the army is moving. The bad news is that this might go on for some time, and we might get other outbreaks of fighting, but in the long run I think it's a good development. You've got to confront these groups early and beat them, but you'll never fully beat them, and this is a lesson the Americans haven't learned yet with their Middle East policy. You'll never beat them only with military means. These come out of a political problem, and you need to solve the underlying political problems in the region to stop these groups being born, because these groups didn't exist 20, 30 years ago, and now they're all over the place.
HARRIS: How often do we hear that, Jim -- you can't solve this militarily. Rami Khour, thanks for your time this morning. We appreciate it.
And, again, the breaking news we've been following for the last hour, maybe an hour and a half now, the raging gun battle at a Palestinian refugee camp, Tripoli, Lebanon. We will take a break and come back with more of our CNN coverage right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: This is CNN breaking news.
It is 10:45 now Eastern Time, and we have been watching all morning long, and actually some of yesterday as well the violence happening at this Palestinian refugee camp seven miles north of Tripoli. It continues. The gun battle just raging there. It began with sort of strange circumstances, a bank robbery, which actually much deeper conflicts going on than that. However, that's where the cache of weapons was actually first discovered, and now we've got the Lebanese army going in, in what Jim Clancy, our anchor from CNN International has been explaining, in sort of a rare move to fight off the militants that have really started to, obviously, come together and be very prolific inside this Palestinian refugee camp.
Jim, it might be a good time to talk a little bit about what we think of as a refugee camp. You know, many of us, that word comes up, and, you know, we think of tents, we think of people cooking over campfires for a very, very temporary situation. Not the case here.
CLANCY: No, not at all. This camp has probably been there the better part of 50 years. I don't know if the director can take the whole banner off to get a better look here. This is a city. I mean, this is a small city, with some apartment buildings. You can see there the high-rises, probably a hospital or school, some of those. There are shops. It is a refugee camp, yes. All of the people in it depend on food aid and assistance.
COLLINS: We're talking about how many, roughly? CLANCY: Roughly 40,000. I mean, that's the best number that I've seen so far. But a lot of times nobody knows inside here, because they think sometimes the refugees inflate the numbers, so they get a little bit more aid coming in, or sometimes people they don't count them properly. But today you can beat they're all getting as low as they can to escape this kind of fighting. Their little world, this little city, has really been ripped apart by the last 48 hours.
HARRIS: You know, I'm curious as to who gets this to stop. Who brings this to an end? I can't imagine that the militant group inside just simply lays down its weapons, but I'm wondering, who are the brokers in this situation, from the Siniora government, from the military?
CLANCY: It's going to have to be the government or the military. You're obviously going to see Anra (ph), the U.N. relief works agency, that works for the Palestinians will have a hand in it. The Red Cross probably.
HARRIS: Yes.
CLANCY: Yes, In fact, I have something here that I wanted to share with you guys. Unfortunately, it's a little difficult to understand this gentleman, Richard Cook, who is the director of the United Nations Relief and Work Agency out of London, who says this, "The problem at the camp is knowing what is happening from area to area." And, Jim, you alluded to that earlier. "Our staff themselves have been injured. They have been unable to move around, so it's very difficult at this time to get a specific number of the number injured. However, we have been negotiating the whole of the day for a cease- fire between two parties, so we can get extra staff, as you mentioned, aid into the camp, medical supplies, food supplies and at at same time we can ascertain the number of casualties and the number dead." Obviously dealing with a very chaotic situation there, just trying to keep people alive after everything that we've seen on the screen as well.
CLANCY: And we haven't noted, a few minutes ago we were talking with Lebanese journalist Rami Khour, who said that, OK, the dominant force here is Fatah, not Fatah al-Islam. They're competitors, if you will, for the hearts and minds of a lot of the Palestinians, with the very militant Fatah Al Islam being the new kid on the block. You could see some of this fighting, some of this smoke that you may be seeing right now may be fighting between the Palestinians, between Fatah and Fatah Al Islam.
HARRIS: We're not talking Gaza now; we're talking Tripoli, in Lebanon.
CLANCY: And you'll be talking that in concert and cooperation with the Lebanese army.
HARRIS: Whoa!
CLANCY: In order to -- see, the Lebanese don't want to see this, the Lebanese army doesn't want to see this, and certainly, Fatah, the mainstream Fatah, doesn't want to see it either in this Palestinian refugee camp.
What they want to see and what's to the benefit of all of them is for Fatah Al Islam to get out. And so for them to work together should not be a surprise. Is that what's actually happening? We can't tell because we can't get in there. I mean, the people that live in the camp can't move.
COLLINS: And I think the gentleman we had on a few moments ago from "The Daily Star" brought up an excellent point, too, is if this wasn't a surprise -- everybody knew something was about to erupt here -- what could the Lebanese army, the Lebanese government, again, making sure that we understand this has not been a government of extreme power, what they possibly could have done to, you know -- in the event that they could possibly stave it off to begin with.
CLANCY: Well, you know, a lot of people would say that the accusations against this group, the suspicions that this group might have been involved in planting bombs, certainly had ties to Al Qaeda, was certainly going to be troubled down the road -- should they have acted earlier? Well, I'm not sure they were going to act at all in this bank robbery showed up, and they went in there looking for some suspects, the cash perhaps from the bank robbery, and what do they uncover? A huge cache of weapons.
HARRIS: Now, you know, I have to suggest this to you, perhaps if I'm at home watching this, I'm saying to myself, well, isn't this just the many factions inside Lebanon battling it out again, as they've done for decades now? Why -- what are the broader implications of this, if I view this as sort of just more of the same, an internal struggle for power and control, hearts and minds inside of Lebanon? What are the broader implications of this fighting, this scene for U.S. policy in the region?
CLANCY: Because this is a group, a small, fledgling group, behind all of the smoke in the skies, all of the gunfire that you hear...
HARRIS: One-hundred, 200 militants, Jim.
CLANCY: But it the starts, and it's not the only one. It's got al Qaeda ties, and it's led by someone -- we've got a wannabe terrorists on the streets of Narh al-Bared, Cold River, the refugee camp here 70 miles north of Tripoli. It's a wannabe al Qaeda terrorist, wants to make a name for himself, was a compatriot of -- was a coworker, I've called him before, of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and he wants to make a name for himself, too. This is his fledgling group.
What should concern is, No. 1, can he be stopped, can he be contained? But No. 2, how many more are there out there?
HARRIS: Well, Jim, I'm telling you -- as I'm sitting at home, I'm saying, well, you know what, the Lebanese government is doing exactly what I would want the Lebanese government to do. The Lebanese government that I, as an American, and this American government is supporting, is doing exactly what it should be doing; it is going after the militants, going after the terrorists, right where they live. So as I look at this picture, I'm happy with what I see because this is -- this is that government in action, fighting the war on terrorism in its particular neck of the woods. How about that?
CLANCY: Well, it certainly, you know, a point of view that's probably shared by a lot of people, as you say, that are sitting at home right now. It's kind of interesting, tony, to think that this was an army that really didn't get much respect until after the Lebanon summer war, last summer's war, because then they moved into the south. Everybody said, well, they've never be able to maintain security down there.
HARRIS: And you saw it firsthand.
CLANCY: Yes, I was there. And I mean, to see the Lebanese army and they got cheered, and when they moved against these bank robbers and moved in reinforcements and came through the town of Tripoli yesterday, they were cheered. And residents gathered nearby and cheered every time there was an outgoing tank shell, cheering for their army. So you see a military, which is, after all, a part of the strength of any government, and politicians are seen as incredibly weak, and right now they're incredibly divided, but the military in Lebanon is gaining some new respect. And this is probably pushing that a little bit more. And, you know, they've taken some casualties in this. They've taken some.
COLLINS: Jim, let's go ahead and bring in the director, the liaison office, for the United Nations Relief and Work Agency, to help us understand a little bit more about the Palestinian refugee camps.
Andrew Whitley is on the phone.
Andrew, if you can hear me, tell me a little bit more, if you could, about whether or not people should be surprised in the slightest that al Qaeda could be infiltrating camps like these.
ANDREW WHITLEY, DIR., U.N. OFFICE OF REFUGEES: Well, these camps have always been no-go areas for the Lebanese government. And to people who are criminals, escaping the law illegal, immigrants into Lebanon, those have taken refuge there over the years. So it's hardly surprising that people who are up to mischief in Lebanon should want to take refuge there and plan their actions.
COLLINS: And break it down for us a little bit, if you could. I'm not sure if you have any idea exactly how that process works, but as we think about it, we consider that people there, as Jim Clancy has mentioned, very, very poor, not happy with their lives, and looking for some way out. So, perhaps, al Qaeda comes in, says, hey, come with us, we'll pay you or we'll give you food, give you shelter, we'll take care of your family, just come along with us on our mission.
WHITLEY: There are, of course, disaffected people who can be exploited by militants. Unfortunately, most Palestinian refugees in Lebanon have been barred from gaining government jobs or any form of legal job, and for many years now. That's one of the most significant problems for them. They're also institutionally discriminated against in terms of their ability to own property or land, or even to have real freedom of movement. So they are cannon fodder for the extremists.
COLLINS: What type of screening process goes on? How do you keep a refugee camp like this, one that's been around as long as this, holds as many people as this, 40,000 or so, how do you keep a place like this remotely safe?
WHITLEY: Well, we can't and we don't. We don't administer the camps. The responsibility for maintaining the security is that of the Lebanese government, and it's they who have been putting their own security forces around the camps to try to control who moves in and out of them, that obviously over the years, some of those controls have slackened. But we are not in a position as a U.N. agency to act as a police force.
COLLINS: No, Understood. Just wondering, you know, who would be in charge of doing that. I understand clearly that it's supposed to be the Lebanese government. Has this area been completely ignored?
WHITLEY: This is an area where we have been trying to improve the living conditions, and the Siniora government has been trying to help the overall living conditions to allow homes to be reconstructed, allow water and other infrastructure assistance to go into the camps. So we would certainly like to be in a position where we could start to improve the overall quality of lives, but it certainly has been neglected for many years.
And I know that come June 2008, we may not -- tell us exactly what's going to be happening in June 2008. There's some sort of extension that has been granted, yes?
COLLINS: I'm not sure what you're referring to in June 2008.
WHITLEY: Well, in the absence of a solution to the Palestinian refugee problem, the general assembly has repeatedly tried to renew UNRE's (ph) mandate, most recently extending this one until 2008.
WHITLEY: That's something that's normal. We have a three-year mandate, which is indeed due to be renewed in June 2008. We expect that it will be renewed. This is, of course, dealing with the refugees throughout the entire region, and it will be debated by the general assembly later on this year. But it's certainly our expectation, as no solution is in sight for the overall problem of the refugees in the region, that our mandate will be renewed.
COLLINS: Yes, interesting as we see all of this happening. Andrew, before we let you go, quickly, how do you resolve something like this?
WHITLEY: Well, I think if we're talking about the underlying problems for the refugees, there has to be a greater degree of integration of the refugees into the local society and economy. And if they are shunned and barred from participating in normal life, of course, they're going to become canon fodder. But our expectation and hope is that if the Siniora government is able to re-establish its authority they'll be in a position to finally be able do something for these people. COLLINS: Well, we certainly appreciate your thoughts here today. Andrew Whitley is the director of the Liaison Office of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Thanks again, Andrew.
HARRIS: And Heidi and Jim, we have a statement from the White House, the press secretary there. We are concerned about the violence taking place there and the civilian casualties. We believe the parties should take a step back from violence. We are firm believers in Lebanon's democracy and sovereignty and support Prime Minister's Siniora's efforts to deal with fighting in the country.
Let's get the view of all of this from the State Department. Our State Department correspondent Zain Verjee is on the line with us.
And, Zain, any reaction from the secretary of state or a spokesperson for the secretary?
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT Well, the state department at this point has been extremely cautious. The spokesman, Sean McCormack, just a few minutes ago said that Lebanese security forces are working in a legitimate manner to provide security for the Lebanese people. He added that this was really brought on by attacks from violent extremists.
Also the leader of this group, Shaker al-Abssi, the leader of Fatah al-Islam, was actually tried and sentenced to death in absentia back in 2002 along with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and is believed to be responsible for the assassination of USAID official Lawrence Foley in Jordan back in 2002.
Now, the State Department is not drawing any link between the fighting in Tripoli and the bombing in Beirut on Sunday. They're also making it clear they're not drawing any linkage at this point to violence In Lebanon.
And the move toward a U.N. resolution on a tribunal that's investigating the murder of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, and that basically implicated Syria. Now certainly the Lebanese people have been expecting an upshot, an increase in violence in Lebanon,as they move toward this tribunal, but really the view from the State Department this morning is one of extreme caution.
HARRIS: That's interesting.
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