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Gun Battle Rages at Palestinian Refugee Camp in Lebanon

Aired May 21, 2007 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: I'm wondering if there is any similar language coming out of the State Department this morning.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT: Well, the State Department spokesman also added that the Siniora government, Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, has been remarkably stable and resultant, and has proven to be an effective and strong leader. That was what he said this morning.

HARRIS: Yes.

VERJEE: The U.S. really, you know, much like you see in that White House statement, really has been showing a huge amount of support for the fragile democracy of the prime minister, and really strategically has been making a move toward trying to break Syria's hold on Lebanon. But it's always been from the State Department a full backing for the prime minister and the fragile Lebanese government.

HARRIS: Our State Department correspondent, Zain Verjee, for us this morning.

Zain, as always, thank you. Great to talk to you.

Top of the hour. Let's get a reset.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HARRIS: And again, the breaking news in to CNN for the last, oh, two hours now.

Jim, great to have you here with us.

JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Great to be here.

HARRIS: This is a raging gun battle in the Palestinian refugee camp there in Tripoli, Lebanon.

And Jim, if you could, you've been great and doing this throughout the morning for us. Give us the big picture on what we are seeing. A number of fatalities, the numbers still coming in. Just an unbelievable gun battle that is being waged right now.

Give us the big picture of what we're seeing here.

CLANCY: Well, what you are seeing, no doubt, is a pitched battle for -- to assert the sovereignty of the state in Lebanon over lawless groups. This is a conflict that ostensibly started as a bank robbery. And when security forces went in after the bank robbers wanted to raid their homes, they found a huge cache of weapons, and it also touched off huge gun battles that quickly escalated.

Some police and army posts around the Palestinian refugee camps were actually taken over. And the army had to abandon them. But the army moved in reinforcements.

Now, under a 1969 agreement with the PLO and with Arab states, the Lebanese army doesn't go into these camps. But I am told by a source in Lebanon this morning the intent is or should be -- and remember, the plan may change here hour by hour...

HARRIS: Sure.

CLANCY: ... is or should be that they want to seal them off in this camp, they want to corner them in this camp, and ultimately get them ousted in some kind of a settlement. But what's it's really all about? It may be all about attempts by al Qaeda to play the Palestinian card, to represent the Palestinian view, to gain recruits from the Palestinian refugee camps, which we've heard again and again are really fruitful grounds for recruitment for an extremist group like al Qaeda.

We've learned a little bit more about this group that's in here that is headed up by Shakir al-Abssi. Shakir al-Abssi, who served -- he's a Palestinian, he's a fugitive. He served time in a Syrian prison, as Zain Verjee told us a short while ago.

He is suspected, he was condemned in absentia by a Jordanian court in the 2002 assassination of U.S. aide official Lawrence Foley. So this isn't a guy that, you know, just stumbled out of the woods into this refugee camp. He's been known to a lot of people for a long time, and he's trying to establish a foothold here for al Qaeda inside a Palestinian refugee camp.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And as we keep talking about this refugee camp, you made a great point there. It may be, by looking at the picture that people are seeing at home here, there may be thinking that the camp itself is just where the smoke is coming up and maybe behind those trees. But actually, you can see the buildings.

That is the refugee camp. This the camp that has been established way back here since 1949, originally by the Red Cross societies. And to give people a better idea, here's what we're looking at.

It's very, very overcrowded. Infrastructure is terribly poor. Even though some of the shelters have indoor water, many of them are linked to a completely inadequate water supply, pumped from a ground source. There are issues with the sewers and anything else that you can possibly imagine by way of sanitation and so forth.

So every day these people are dealing with really tough conditions. CLANCY: Well, you know, 50 years ago they came here thinking they were going to stay a few months. It was tents at first. And then it's grown into to be a city.

COLLINS: It's amazing, though. Fifty years.

CLANCY: It's not pleasant. Lebanese law doesn't allow them to get jobs.

HARRIS: Second-class citizens.

CLANCY: Well, they're not even citizens.

HARRIS: Yes, they're not even citizens.

CLANCY: They're second-class human beings, if you want to call them that.

HARRIS: Yes, that's right.

CLANCY: And that's part of the disaffection that this militant group is trying to cultivate and capitalize on in order to get a foothold in. Without a doubt, the most sailable in all of the Middle East, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Al Qaeda wants to be involved in it. It wants to play that card.

COLLINS: Yes. And again, fGORANI:inding the weak people to go ahead and recruit seems like a perfect place for them.

I keep reading some of these facts and figures about this Nahr al-Bared refugee camp that we're looking at on the screen here. And we see there's only 31,000 registered refugees, but as you were mentioning, we expect maybe closer to 40,000. Really not sure at any given time how many people are living there.

They've got apparently one agency health care with an average of, get this, 494 patients a day that they're having to try and care for. And then, obviously, you're kind of competing with your neighbor if you've got something wrong with you, trying to -- trying to get well. I can only imagine now...

CLANCY: Well, it's a dismal, dismal scene there with open sewers running down the streets. It's not healthy at all. It's not -- it's not a place that anyone would ever choose to be, unless -- unless they were running from the law, because the military, the Lebanese military, can't go into that camp. Therefore, on the inside, money might be able to buy you the security.

HARRIS: And as we continue -- look at that -- look at how beautiful that is, the backdrop. It is a -- I imagine just a -- yes, on the Mediterranean, a beautiful port city.

We have reaction from the White House, from the White House press secretary. "We're concerned about the violence taking place there and the civilian casualties. We believe the parties..." -- this is interesting, Jim -- "We believe the parties should take a step back from the violence."

Let me stop there for a moment. That would seem to suggest that the administration would like for both sides to take a break, to step back, to stop the raging gun battle that is going on right now.

Do you hear that in that portion of the statement?

CLANCY: Well, I think what they're doing is they're leaving it up to the Lebanese government right now. I think that the White House, as the State Department well knows, well knows, that there's efforts behind the scenes to at least get a temporary cease-fire, to get in and move some of the wounded out.

We don't -- we don't know how many people have been killed, really. We don't know how many people have been wounded.

We have some rough estimates, more than 50 killed. That's one of the ones that I've seen this morning. But those are only rough estimates. This has been nonstop gunfire now for hours.

HARRIS: Yes.

To finish that statement, "We are firm believers..." -- from the White House -- "We are firm believers in Lebanon's democracy and sovereignty and support, Prime Minister Siniora's efforts to deal with the fighting in the country."

But, as you can clearly see here, a very difficult situation. And we are always concerned about the civilian casualties in a situation like this.

And it's interesting that, on one hand, you can imagine that the civilians, the -- you know, the law-abiding, if we can describe them as such, Palestinians in that refugee camp who certainly aren't a part of the fighting right now would be in favor of the military moving in and stopping this, putting an end to this, and rooting out the violent disruptive elements.

CLANCY: Unless they're caught in it, Tony.

HARRIS: Unless they're caught in it.

CLANCY: You know, unless their home is being taken over to wage the battles, which -- a home that they can't afford to rebuild. Lives that, of course, can't be replaced. There's a lot of terrified people in there wondering which way this is going to go.

COLLINS: Let's take a moment, if we could. We have got another unique opportunity to talk to someone who is actually on the ground right outside this refugee camp.

We have Nicholas Blanford on the line. He's a journalist with the "Christian Science Monitor".

Nicholas, if you can hear me, tell me what you are seeing around you. NICHOLAS BLANFORD, AUTHOR, "KILLING MR. LEBANON": Well, for the last hour and a half we've had a very sustained bout of fighting between the militants holed up in the camp and the Lebanese army who have surrounded the camp. There have been intermittent clashes during the day. You'd have five minutes of calm, then someone would open up with a machine gun, and then the other fight goes on to the back, and you'd have five minutes of intense shooting. And then it would subside again.

But around an hour and a half ago, the fighting really picked up. And I'm in the Lebanese army position, and just behind me there's a mortar team who's been firing mortar rounds consistently almost into the camp.

And just up the hill slightly from where I am, you get a very good view looking into the camp. And it really is a pretty grim scene down there.

There's smoke and dust from explosions from one end of the camp to the other. There are buildings on fire. There's a huge plume of black smoke rising up from the center of the camp.

The militants inside are answering back. They have their own mortars, and they've been shelling some of the Lebanese army positions on the outskirts of the camp, and they've been responding to the Lebanese army fire with heavy machine gunfire of their own.

COLLINS: Nicholas, they are very well armed, the militants, or whoever is shooting back from inside the Palestinian refugee camp?

BLANFORD: Yes, they are very well armed. They displayed some of their weapons a few months ago when they were talking to the press a little bit back then. And certainly they have standard weapons that you find everywhere in this part of the world, like mortars and assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades. They apparently have anti-aircraft machine guns, very heavy machine guns, as well, although don't seem to have used those as yet.

But the fighters are, by all accounts, veteran Palestinians, many of them. Some of them would have fought in Iraq against coalition forces there.

And we're talking about some real combat. Indeed, the leader, Sheikh al-Abssi, the leader of Fatah al-Islam was likened by one (INAUDIBLE) a couple of days ago when I was up there as like (INAUDIBLE), who was the commander of the Vietkong during the Vietnam War. And the Fatah al-Islam leader fought for over 20, 25 years in various theaters in the Middle East, so an experienced man.

COLLINS: Yes, it certainly sounds like it.

Nicholas, from where you are, does it seem to you that the shelling is indiscriminate?

BLANFORD: Difficult to tell. OK, on the surface, it looks completely indiscriminate, but we can't tell actually where the positions are of Fatah al-Islam.

COLLINS: Sure.

BLANFORD: So, they could be throughout the camp. They were located in one particular sector of the camp, but since this fighting began yesterday, they may have well spilled out elsewhere. But it's very difficult to tell whether the army responding to sources of fire or whether it's a more indiscriminate shelling.

Certainly, one way or the other, there must be a lot of casualties down there, because the camp is completely sealed off. No one is going in. Nobody is coming out. And one can only wonder what's happened to the casualties inside the camp.

COLLINS: Boy, I think you really said that right. We've been talking about that a little bit here, wondering how on earth they'll even be able to get any care for those casualties inside the camp.

I am also wondering if it seems like a bit of a surprise to you. We've been trying to determine from here that the Lebanese army did go in and try to fight back with all of this activity, beginning yesterday.

BLANFORD: Well, the Lebanese army yesterday, when they came under attack, they had these positions around the camp anyway. The Fatah al-Islam militants stormed and overran these positions in the morning.

The Lebanese army brought in reinforcements, special forces troops, and they recaptured these positions. And these are the positions that they're holding now and firing into the camp. The next big step is whether to send the troops into the camp or not to flush out the militants.

COLLINS: Right.

BLANFORD: There's a longstanding agreement between the Lebanese government and Palestinian factions in Lebanon that the 12 established refugee camps here are outside the jurisdiction of the Lebanese states. They're autonomous enclaves. Now, that still holds even though that agreement was signed in 1969 and a lot has happened since then.

COLLINS: Sure.

BLANFORD: The Lebanese government is still abiding by that agreement. But more practically, if you do send in the troops -- I spoke to one special forces officer earlier on and he said, "Look, we could go into the camp and we could wipe these guys out, but at what cost?"

This is a highly populated area, 40,000 people living in a very small area. And there are going to be serious casualties not just amongst the civilians, but certainly amongst the militants and Lebanese troops themselves.

COLLINS: Yes. Boy, that's definitely the complication in all of this, isn't it?

All right. Nicholas Blanford with the "Christian Science Monitor".

We certainly appreciate your perspective.

Again, coming to us live right outside the refugee camp that we are watching on television.

Nicholas, thank you.

HARRIS: And Heidi, we are happy to have Mohamad Chatah on the line with us. He is a senior adviser to the Lebanese government.

Mr. Chatah, thank you for your time today.

I'm wondering what the Lebanese government's position is on the fighting that is going on right now on the edges of this Palestinian refugee camp.

MOHAMAD CHATAH, SR. ADVISER TO LEBANESE PRIME MINISTER: Of course, the Lebanese government has come out condemning what has happened. What has happened is a virtual massacre.

When the renegade Fatah al-Islam group, a violent, violent extremist group, as your viewers know, came out and literally killed more than 25 Lebanese soldiers (INAUDIBLE). And, of course, the Lebanese government had no choice but to respond and assert its authority around the refugee camp.

It is a difficult situation, of course, because the refugee camp in question is really a little town with something like 35,000 people. The government is very sensitive about the status of the civilians, and the last thing it wants is to have civilians pay the price.

HARRIS: Sure.

CHATAH: So it is, of course, balancing its obligation to assert its authority and not allow terrorist groups from literally taking over this part of the country.

HARRIS: Sure.

CHATAH: But, at the same time, make sure that the civilians not end up paying the price.

HARRIS: Mr. Chatah, but here's the critical question, one of a couple we'll ask you here. Will the army ultimately be given permission to go into the refugee camp and root out the militant elements?

CHATAH: Ultimately, the government would not allow such groups to prevail. So there will be an end that will not see such groups continue to exist the way they have for some time.

Now, how that will happen and when I cannot tell you. The cabinet is in session now, and at the end of that session there should be a statement.

Now, whether the statement will answer your question or not, I can tell you that the government is adamant about this situation not continuing, and it's doing everything it can both on the ground with the security forces, but also politically launching an effort. And I have to tell you in this context that this morning the prime minister met extensively with the leaders of Palestinian factions in Lebanon to get their cooperation in solving this problem. And they do have a role, as you know, because these factions not only have the presence inside the refugee camps, but also have come out strongly in support of the government efforts, and also have condemned the Fatah al- Islam's activities very strongly.

HARRIS: OK. Well, Mr. Chatah, clear this up for me. If the army does not go in and root out these elements, to root out the militants who are firing upon your soldiers, then I'm curious as to what the ultimate mission is here.

Is it just to sort of stand on one side of the street and fire into the camp at militants who are firing at you? And where does that get you?

CHATAH: Well, obviously, that's not the case. And we have confidence in our security forces of finding a way -- ways of ending this and not continuing in a stalemate.

What your viewers are watching on television is not just random shelling. The security forces are targeting the members of Fatah al- Islam, who, in the end, I assure you, will not continue to exist in the camp. Now, the government yesterday, in a ministerial meeting, came out not only in full support of the military and everything it needs, but it also gave clear instructions to the military that this situation will not continue.

Now, as I said, I'm not in a position to tell you the exact manner in which security forces are going to root up these elements, but it's going to happen. It's going to happen after the security forces themselves advise the government on what they need.

CLANCY: Mohamad Chatah, it's Jim Clancy in Atlanta. Really good to have you with us as someone who's so close to the cabinet there, as, you know, the adviser to the cabinet.

Can you tell us, has any evidence been laid before the cabinet, before the senior government administers there, about the backing and the origins of this Fatah al-Islam?

CHATAH: Well, I'm not in a position to answer that question specifically. What I can tell you is that the Fatah al-Islam has been implicated in terrorist bombings in Lebanon, as your viewers may recall.

There was an incident where two buses were bombed in northeast of Beirut, and there is clear evidence and actually confessions about these groups being the perpetrators of these crimes. Also, some members of this group have been associated with some assassinations that have taken place in Lebanon which were part of a series of assassinations that have plagued the country for the last two years.

CLANCY: Mr. Chatah, let me be more blunt. Is Syria involved?

CHATAH: Well, clearly people assume that's the case because of a whole host of factors having to do with the origin of this group being an outburst of (INAUDIBLE), which, of course, is a Damascus-based, anti-Palestinian Authority group. You know, implicating specifically the Syrian government in this is beyond my pay scale or ability. So let's leave that alone.

But there's no question that this group and, I must say, also some other groups in Lebanon, are of the type that historically have been associated not only with extremist groups in the region, but also with intelligence services that have manipulated them, used them, feared them. And while I cannot link this group specifically in sort of factual terms to the Syrian government, I think most people would strongly tell you that there is some kind of a connection, and that's why people have come out, you know, strongly against the Syrian government last night after Lebanese soldiers were slaughtered, literally, in their beds by elements.

CLANCY: Well, certainly the Lebanese army has emerged in this being cheered in the streets of Tripoli, as they were as they rolled into south Lebanon last summer. It has raised its stature in this conflict. But I'm concerned that eyewitness reports are telling us here on CNN that it appears some of the shelling is indiscriminate.

Aren't there concerns that that could drive others into the camp of these -- the more radical element of Fatah al-Islam? Or do you have an agreement with Fatah and Hamas to work with the Lebanese army against that group?

CHATAH: I can assure you the Lebanese army does not shell refugee camps indiscriminately. Now, of course it's a difficult situation.

This is a densely-populated, literally little town called a refugee camp, and Fatah al-Islam are there, you know, between houses and apartment blocks. So, yes, there is a risk to civilians. And that's a major reason why the Lebanese security forces have not stormed the camp.

Now, has there been any cooperation with other Palestinian factions, mainstream Palestinian factions? The answer is yes. This morning, there was a meeting with the leaders of those factions, Fatah, Hamas and others, and, yes, there is cooperation taking place which we hope will translate into specific efforts by these groups to make it possible to root out Fatah al-Islam without endangering civilians anymore.

CLANCY: Mohamad Chatah, the senior adviser to the Palestinian cabinet.

I want to thank you for being on the lines with us. And you know, our hopes and prayers go with Lebanon right now. And, of course, with the military there that's facing down this Fatah al- Islam, the al Qaeda-linked group there at Nahr al-Bared refugee camp in the very north of Lebanon, along the Syrian border.

Thank you.

COLLINS: And as we continue to look at these live pictures still coming into us, you still hear the gunfire. This has been raging now for hours.

Tripoli, Lebanon, it is 6:22 there in the evening. It will be interesting to see what type of change we may have in the fighting as night befalls the area.

We will continue, of course, to bring you these live pictures as long as we have them.

While we continue to look at them, let's go ahead and bring in Fawaz Gerges. He is a professor of international affairs, Middle Eastern studies, at Sarah Lawrence College.

And Fawaz, nice to have you with us and to see you again. Unfortunately, under these circumstances.

I know you have spent a lot of time in this area, you know it very well. Let's ask you the question that we tried to ask the former Lebanese ambassador to the United States. Is Syria involved? Is this al Qaeda taking orders from Syrian?

FAWAZ GERGES, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Well, you know, as you know, some Lebanese ministers accuse Syria of having a link with Fatah al-Islam. I mean -- but let's remember that such militant factions have existed in Palestinian camps for a long time.

This is not the first time. But there is a kind of, according to Lebanese officials, not based on any particular evidence, that somehow Syria is arming and sponsoring members of Fatah al-Islam.

COLLINS: Yes, there's no question about at least the amount of weaponry that we are seeing here today. I mean, just look at how long this fighting has been going on. A constant barrage of tank and gunfire that we are listening to.

I also want to ask you, Fawaz, this is sort of the classic example, is it not? You go in, you have civilians who are surrounded by the militants, or vice versa. It makes it very difficult for the Lebanese army, at least in this case, to fight them off. We just heard the Lebanese ambassador, former ambassador, say that as well. The shelling is not indiscriminate, he said, emphatically.

GERGES: Well, what we need to understand for your audience, this area is one of the most densely-populated areas in the world. You have almost 50,000 civilians living in a tiny real estate area.

COLLINS: Yes.

GERGES: And I think regardless of whether the shelling is targeted or not, I mean, Fatah al-Islam and other factions exist within this civilian population. And it seems to me, regardless of how accurate the shelling is, I think based on what we have seen, I think we should expect many civilian casualties.

And I think this is one of the reasons why the Lebanese army is basically hesitant about storming the Palestinian camp called Nahr al- Bared in north Lebanon. Not only because of the potential large number of civilian casualties, but if the Lebanese army were to storm the camp, I would argue that other Palestinian factions who are not militant like Fatah al-Islam may join the fight along their Palestinian -- along the side of Palestinian brothers.

So, in this particular sense, yes, there is a real potential that many civilian casualties will be killed because this is one of the most highly-populated, densely-populated areas. And there's fighting on both sides, shelling and counter-shelling as well.

COLLINS: Are you surprised, Fawaz, that the Lebanese army has gone in as far as they have gone in?

GERGES: Yes, I am surprised. I am surprised because the Lebanese army has been extremely hesitant about confronting some militant factions in Palestinian camps.

What you need to understand is that there are multiple fault lines in Lebanon today. You have a major, intense internal crisis between the Lebanese government and the opposition led by Hezbollah. This is one major fault line.

The second fault line is that there is a major crisis between the Lebanese government and the Syrian government, as we suggested. Some Lebanese officials are accusing the Syrians of basically sponsoring and arming members of Fatah al-Islam.

And thirdly, there is this particular fight between the Lebanese army and militant Palestinians. My fear is that this particular fight might not only escalate and spread into other areas in Lebanon, it might basically overburden an already fragile political system in Lebanon.

I don't think we should underestimate the major ramifications. In this particular crisis there are early signs that the fighting is escalating.

Yesterday there was a major bombing in the dominated -- in the Christian-dominated area in Beirut. The fighting could escalate in other camps in southern Lebanon, particularly if the Lebanese army decides to storm this Palestinian camp in north Lebanon, Nahr al- Bared.

COLLINS: If you would, Fawaz, lay that groundwork for us. How many other refugee camps are we talking about?

GERGES: We're talking about 300,000 or 400,000 Palestinian refugees. I mean, I don't know if you have an idea what exists within the Palestinian camps -- intense poverty, deprivation, the most densely-populated areas in the world.

I cannot really convey to you the extent of poverty and deprivation and alienation. I'm not surprised the al Qaeda ideology is migrating into Palestinian camps. I mean, Palestinian refugees live in prisons in those Palestinian camps.

They have no right to work. They have no right to education. They are basically a hostage in their Palestinian camps. And I fear -- in fact, my fear is that if this confrontation escalates, if many civilians, many Palestinian civilians are killed, we're going to witness more militarization and radicalization of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.

COLLINS: Yes. And I wonder, as we look at -- on the bottom of the screen there, a comment from the White House, being concerned, obviously, about the violence in Lebanon, what does it mean for the United States, this situation that we are watching unfold live?

GERGES: Well, I think what it means is that al Qaeda ideology has migrated to many parts of the Arab and Muslim world. We have now pockets of what I call global jihad in many countries, in Iraq, in Yemen, in Lebanon, in Saudi Arabia. It seems to me even though al Qaeda has received some major blows in the last few years, the American-led invasion and occupation of Iraq has militarized some elements of Muslim public opinion.

Al Qaeda has decentralized. We have many pockets of al Qaeda networks in the area. Lebanon is not an exception to the rule.

I would argue Lebanon is the rule. And I fear that the longer the conflict continues in Iraq, the longer the situation continues in some parts of the Middle East, we're going to witness more pockets of global jihad along al Qaeda ideology and tactics.

COLLINS: Fawaz Gerges, we appreciate your comments here today, coming to us from Washington, professor of international affairs and Middle Eastern studies at Sarah Lawrence College.

Thanks so much, Fawaz.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And, Heidi, French/Israeli filmmaker Pierre Rehov is with us now. Pier has been to about five Palestinian refugee camps.

But, Pierre, I don't believe you visited this particular refugee camp in Tripoli.

PIERRE REHOV, DOCUMENTARY PRODUCER: No, I didn't go to Nahr el- Bared. We have been to five. Between Lebanon and a few others, actually, much more than five altogether. But the three we've been to in Lebanon were enough to understand the situation there, which is a real high level of despair from the population living there in which the film I made about that called, "from The River to the Sea," describe their situation, which is unthinkable for (INAUDIBLE). Those people have been living in those refugee camps for (INAUDIBLE) now. A fate only with an ecology, which is a way to return, which is never going to happen for them.

But in the meantime, nothing else has been done to settle them. So we are talking of 200,00 to 300,000 people living in 12 official refugee camps. But a few were handled by the United Nations for an organization called Uneral (ph). And they are basically -- they are basically second-right citizens in a country which is a Muslim country, Lebanon.

HARRIS: Yes. A couple of straightforward questions for you. Are you surprised by what you're watching on your television set right now?

REHOV: I'm not -- I'm not surprised because the level of hatred and despair and violence in these refugee camps has been there for quite a long time. Now, I was always wondering when this was going to burst. We saw the Lebanese war a year ago that was Hezbollah against Israel. And now we are actually witnessing the official Lebanese army close to invading a refugee camp with all the consequences.

And this is not any surprise because this is what basically those terror organizations want. They want to put the official armies and whoever represents a kind of order in a situation to kill civilians. This has been their strategy all along, whether it is with Israel or (INAUDIBLE) to the Lebanese army. They hide in the population.

HARRIS: Pierre, Pierre.

REHOV: Yes.

HARRIS: But, Pierre, let me ask you, what is the Lebanese army to do? You cannot give up the sovereignty of your country to militant organizations.

REHOV: No, I agree. I agree 100 percent. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that this is a strategy they have been playing against Israel and that now they are playing -- when I say they, you know, whether it's al Qaeda, Hezbollah, or any terror organization around the world, they basically are doing always the same thing.

It's like, you know, the people launching rockets into Israel from Gaza right now. They are waiting for an incursion from the Israeli army. This is what they are trying to do. And what they are trying to do now is to destabilize an official army from the country called Lebanon. And the best way to do that is to make sure that there's going to be as many casualties as possible in the Syrian world among the civilians because then you're going to have all the media on your side, at least against the army (ph), and then you can have the little of (INAUDIBLE) higher, which is going to little very high level of violence. It's a very simple strategy.

HARRIS: So what's the plan? What is the way out of this? How do we get -- do you hear the intensity of the gunfire behind you?

REHOV: Yes, I can hear that. I don't have the television on because I can hear it from your -- through the telephone.

HARRIS: OK. That has to stop. Pierre, at some point, that has to stop. How do we get that to stop? And for all of the discussion that we've had on this program this morning, how do we move that discussion to a place where we can get some real results?

REHOV: This is a war. How can you stop a war? By winning it. There is no cease fire possible at this point. We are talking of hundreds of thousands of people who now want to defeat something, who have been living in misery. I'm talking right now of the Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon and whose only aim is to eventually destroy the state of Israel. They've been a problem inside Lebanon now for almost 60 years.

HARRIS: But destroying Lebanon does not get you back to -- does not get you the right of return. It doesn't get you back to the Palestinian territories.

REHOV: But it can help terror organizations to destroy the actual state of Lebanon. To put a situation of anarchy, which is going to be good for them. This is, you know -- this is -- we are not talking about people behind a computer trying to make plans for the future. We are talking of an organization of terrorists that know how to use violence. They don't know how to do afterwards. And this is -- it's always the same thing, trying to get the same result. Using violence, provocate, get the army to retaliate, have some civilians killed, make sure that . . .

HARRIS: So clearly no one is speaking effectively for these refugees. No one is speaking to power effectively to these refugees, which leaves them in a situation like what we're watching right now.

REHOV: I agree. I agree with you. No one is talking with them. No one is talking for them. You have 200,000, refugees in Lebanon and they are, you know, handled by (INAUDIBLE) in the one hand. But now you have many organizations inside of PLP, PLO. Now you have this new organization, which is close to al Qaeda, and definitely al Qaeda is going to be the organization which is going to have the more influence on the Palestinians because they have been trying everything else.

HARRIS: All right.

REHOV: And nobody went there and said, well, the right to return is never going to exist. And let's try to marshal a plan, produce camps in Lebanon. This is a basic thing to do -- try to settle them. Try to get them jobs. Hope for the future.

But for political reasons, or political ends, they've been living without any hope, any possibility of settling where they live. So now we've been talking there to kids who are 20 years old. They cannot go to school. They cannot go to university. They have no hope for the future. They were born in this refugee camp. And you have skilled people telling them, you have the right to return to Israel, but they would destroy Israel. This mythology (ph), which has been going on for 60 years, is leading to the catastrophe of today.

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pierre Rehov, this is Jim Clancy, alongside Tony and Heidi. And, I mean, on its face, your argument has merit, no doubt about that that these people have been there. Nobody's solved their problems. Of course, in the Arab perspective, Israel is looking for somebody to solve the problems of the refugees.

But I want to ask you the more important question, which may be, this is just one of many groups where the Israeli-Palestinian question, people are seeking to exploit that because they know that in the Middle East that's the coin of the realm. That's the currency of militancy in the Middle East. And that al Qaeda is going to be doing this in a lot of refugee camps. What do you see?

REHOV: I see that happening very fast. And, you know, and also that al Qaeda's been trying to have some influence into Gaza and very recently again, you know, some people from al Qaeda have been arrested by Israeli police and this is the real problem which is that al Qaeda has given an example -- by destroying the World Trade Center, they gave an example to these people who are in despair. And they simply don't have a life for themself. They want to destroy everybody else's life. At least you've seem (ph) them (ph) to want (ph).

HARRIS: Pierre, this is -- let me take the other view of this.

REHOV: Sure.

HARRIS: You know, the other view of this -- and challenge it. The other view of this is that what we are watching right now is a group of 200 Islamic militants taking on the Lebanese army. This is an internal battle in that one city. It has no possibility, because of the strong action of the Lebanese military, it has no possibility of extending. And all of this talk, all of this talk about this being a crucial battle right now with implications for the entire region is just so much hyperbole.

REHOV: I cannot follow you in this path. Although what I see myself from my point of view is that what they are trying to do is grab attention. If they succeed in grabbing attention? Yes. Are they sending a strong message to the rest of the Arab world, the Muslim world? Yes. Through al Jazeera, through CNN, whoever, you name it. Right now 200 people with machine guns are becoming the superstars of today's events on CNN. Isn't that something?

HARRIS: Hmm. I like that point. I like that. For the last two and a half hours, we certainly have been giving a heck of a stage to 150 to 200 Islamic militants. But I'm wondering, what about the other Palestinians in that camp? What is their responsibility? What do they do? How do they, first of all, stay out of the crossfire of all of this? But in the aftermath of this, when the smoke dissipates, what is their responsibility? What is their role? How will they organize against what they've witnessed today?

REHOV: You know, Palestinians living in refugee camps, I would say that most of the refugee camps look about the same. You have 85 percent or 80 percent of the population that just would like to have a life for themselves. Nothing else. They'd like to feed their children. They like to have some hope for the future, you know, like (INAUDIBLE) chose to have a normal life on a daily basis.

Now, among this population, you have 15 percent to 20 percent of extremists, of militants. They are scary. Not only are they scary to the rest of the world, but the first people they are scary to are their own population. So at this point, by showing their strength, by showing how powerful they can be, by doing what they are doing right now, they are teaching a lesson to their own population. And they are telling them, you see, we can win. We are not enough. But tomorrow if you can be, you know, 50 percent of the camp would be with us, we can defeat the whole Lebanon. And then if all the camps are together, then we can defeat Israel.

HARRIS: I see.

REHOV: This is what they are trying to say.

HARRIS: Pierre, thanks. Pierre, I've got to run. Pierre, I've got to run. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Want to take you directly inside the camp now, if we can. Ashraf Abu Khurj is inside the camp. He is a volunteer there.

Ashraf, if you can hear me, tell me what you're witnessing around you.

We are still able to hear, obviously, quite a bit of gunfire from these pictures that we have been bringing you all morning long. I imagine that it's possible Ashraf may be having a difficult time hearing us if he is, indeed, inside the camp, Nahr el-Bared, that we've been talking about. I want to try one more time.

Ashraf, if you can hear me, tell me what you're seeing around you.

Obviously, very difficult to have communications from someone inside. But this is a situation at least that we know it from very much outside of the refugee camp. Again, Nahr el-Bared. We've been talking about it all morning long because, you know, it's going to be really, really tough to get in there and get the medical supplies that may be need.

Obviously, there are going to be casualties. At this point, we don't even know what that number is. We did hear from a U.N. official in London who said that his staff members have been injured. It's been very difficult to move around and certainly very difficult to find out how many casualties at the camp. So they are working.

Very difficult to negotiate some type of cease fire just so that medical and food supplies can be brought in to the people there inside the camp. You know, it would be wonderful to be able to talk to someone there. I imagine very busy, hopefully busy trying to help out the injured.

HARRIS: Put yourself on the ground for a moment as you take a look at these pictures, as you listen to the raging gun battle as it continues. Put yourself on the ground. What is it like from the various perspectives as you watch this unfold this morning? What is it like for the Lebanese citizen who is -- who has been, for the most part, in many cases, we're understanding, unaware that inside that particular Palestinian refugee camp in the city of Tripoli, probably a neighboring refugee camp, to their particular home that you have been living next to radical Islamist militants with designs not only of destabilizing the Fouad Siniora government, but perhaps extending this throughout the Middle East.

That this battle could be a macrocosm, a blueprint for a larger battle to further destabilize the Middle East. Just imagine yourself on the ground as a Lebanese citizen right now and what you're watching unfolding in Tripoli. Maybe your vantage point is Beirut. What are you thinking about your country at this time?

COLLINS: Yes. And who knows what's going on inside that refugee camp. The type of fighting that may be going on within the camp itself, trying to establish some type of power between the militant extremists, another level of the complication all of what we're seeing today.

Want to go ahead and take a moment to take a break. We'll be back right here on CNN NEWSROOM with more live from Tripoli, Lebanon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN "Breaking News."

HARRIS: Well, if you are just joining us, you have borne witness to an amazing event in Tripoli, Lebanon, right now. This raging gun battle continues now between Islamic militants and Lebanese army. It is playing out right now in Tripoli, Lebanon. And we continue to bring you these amazing pictures into the CNN NEWSROOM.

COLLINS: That's right. What you're watching is the Lebanese army fighting back, which a lot of our analysts have been saying is a bit of a surprise. How far can they actually go in? Well, there's an agreement that says they can't go into the Palestinian refugee camp that we have been watching here. And we're talking about the one that is about seven miles north of Tripoli.

So it has been going on for hours. Absolutely relentlessly. Very few breaks. In fact, the violence happening right now inside this Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon. The Lebanese army going up against suspected al Qaeda militants. That is the heart of it.

Our Brent Sadler, in fact, visited one of the Palestinian camps in northern Lebanon earlier this year. He found it to be a breeding ground for Islamic extremists. Might not be a surprise. And the Lebanese government powerless to do very much about it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): Heavily armed Islamic extremists operate openly inside a Palestinian refugee camp in north Lebanon. Their leader was sentenced to death in Jordan for the murder of a U.S. diplomat five years ago. Now on the run, the Lebanese government says his group, Fatah al Islam, is behind recent terror attacks in Lebanon. But, incredibly, no law enforcement agency can touch these fanatics because, for decades, the Lebanese government has been powerless to enter any of Lebanon's 12 armed refugee camps.

KHALIL MAKKAWI, LEBANESE PALESTINIAN DIALOGUE COMMITTEE: The situation speaks for itself. Those camps have become a fertile ground for the fundamentalists, the extremists.

SADLER: Khalil Makkawi heads a new Lebanese government committee trying to improve shocking living conditions in squalled refugee camps to counter the influence of extremists who can easily find recruits among the country's 400,000 refugees.

MAKKAWI: This is subhuman. The conditions that these people are living is really subhuman.

SADLER: It is only Makkawi's second visit to the Sabra (ph) Shatila camp outside Beirut where he meets Fahat Salim Fahat (ph).

The slums have been home to Fahat all his adult life. His cramped home lost mains water 25 years ago and is hit by daily power cuts.

FAHAT SALIM FAHAT: They cut from seven to 10.

SADLER: Every day?

FAHAT: Every day. Every day.

SADLER: Generations of Palestinians have grown up inside these camps. And the bigger their families get, the more they try to create space by building higher, building closer together, making living conditions intolerable and very dangerous.

MAKKAWI: God forbid if there is a slight earthquake in this part of Beirut, the whole thing will crumble down.

SADLER: Are you happy living here?

FAHAT: Nobody happy living in these camps. The big happy for us, if we can go back to our land.

SADLER: Fahat's land is what used to be Palestine.

Do you think you will ever go back home to Palestine?

FAHAT: If you can take me now to Palestine, I go with you.

SADLER: But there is no hope that Fahat or any other Palestinians will leave their camps, existing for almost 60 years, anytime soon.

MAKKAWI: Unless you find a solution, a just solution, to the Palestinian problem, there can be no peace in the Middle East.

SADLER: And perhaps no end to the growing appeal of militant fundamentalism inside refugee camps, which are immune from the law.

Brent Sadler, CNN, Beirut. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Wow. You know, that's the crux of the issue, at least today, as we look at these pictures. The same picture, in fact, that we have been looking at, maybe a little bit less smoke for a minute, and then we'll have more.

HARRIS: Sure. Sure.

COLLINS: Tripoli, Lebanon, 6:51 p.m. there now. The fact that the Lebanese army cannot go inside of this particular camp. And you heard in Brent's reporting that there are 12 of these camps. And a couple of our analysts have been saying, you know, I wonder what's going to happen as possibly, if this violence spreads, and the other refugees that are in the other camps, close to 300,000/400,000 of them total in the country, could be joining in.

HARRIS: And, Heidi, we've asked the question about as directly as you can as the question. If you're not going to go in and root out these -- if you're not going to go in and root out the bad guys, to simplify it, then what is this mission? What are we watching here? And the answer we've gotten back is that negotiators are negotiating. People are talking. Groups are talking.

COLLINS: And it's very precarious because of the civilian population mixed in with the extremists, as always.

HARRIS: Absolutely.

COLLINS: I mean, that seems to be a very complicated and dangerous part of it all.

HARRIS: We are going to take a break and continue with more of our coverage of this breaking news out of Tripoli, Lebanon, in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN "Breaking News."

COLLINS: A tiny bit of a break in this incredible gunfire. You hear it now winding up once again between Lebanese army and militants inside a Palestinian refugee camp about seven miles north of Tripoli, Nahr el-Bared, is what we are watching and have been for several hours now.

Want to go ahead and take the opportunity to get to someone on the ground inside the refugee camp. He's a volunteer trying to help with the situation. Ashraf Abu Khurj is on the line with us now.

Ashraf, what are you seeing and hearing around you?

ASHRAF ABU KHURJ, VOLUNTEER IN NAHR EL-BARED CAMP: Yes. I am now inside (INAUDIBLE) camp and the situation is really so, so bad.

COLLINS: What are you -- what type of . . . ABU KHURJ: The (INAUDIBLE) army and the (INAUDIBLE), they are fighting. And my camp is just 20 (INAUDIBLE). And then fight -- this one (INAUDIBLE) and more than 40,000 people live in one key (INAUDIBLE). So you imagine (INAUDIBLE) and their (INAUDIBLE) all houses (ph). There is no hospital in this camp. There is no -- two days, no power (ph). Power out. No food. No water. It is (INAUDIBLE) people died, OK. So I'm being (INAUDIBLE). I can do (INAUDIBLE). So really the situation is so bad.

COLLINS: I can only imagine what you must be seeing, Ashraf, as you explain to us -- no power, no food, no hospital to get these people to.

ABU KHURJ: Yes.

COLLINS: What are you able to help with? Is there anything that you can do?

ABU KHURJ: OK. For example, we wish like (INAUDIBLE) people go outside the camp because no one can -- no one can (INAUDIBLE). (INAUDIBLE) people have to stay in their home and they need help. (INAUDIBLE). Where is their human rights. OK. Just now we wish like for all kids to leave this camp because there's more than 10,000 kids (INAUDIBLE) people.

COLLINS: Yes, I can only imagine, Ashraf.

ABU KHURJ: And no one can now -- no one can now can (INAUDIBLE). No one can go outside the camp. And very (INAUDIBLE).

COLLINS: Ashraf, we appreciate you bringing us your thoughts and your feelings from the ground right there inside the refugee camp. We have learned a few moments ago, of course, it's almost like the refugee camp is walled off. It's not physically, but certainly right now with the way that the gunfire and the explosions that we have been hearing, it must feel that way. Have no idea at this point how many casualties. But we do know for certain that it must be a very, very dire situation inside the territory there at this refugee camp.

HARRIS: We also know that the Lebanese military has surrounded that refugee camp. We also know that talks, negotiations are underway to try to bring some kind of a cease fire. We know how dicey cease fires can be in this region, in this part of the world, but we do understand that there is some kind of effort going on right now on the Lebanese parliament meeting, at least last hour, perhaps the meeting continues. But certainly talks are underway to try to bring the fighting to an end, at least for now.

COLLINS: Yes, that's just to get some food and possibly medical supplies and so forth in there to help the people that have been wounded. And he did bring up a good point about the children. You know, you have to wonder if there's any way to get them out.

That is all for our coverage right now. As you can imagine, we will be following these developments from Tripoli, Lebanon, all day long live right here on CNN. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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