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Nancy Grace

Illegal Immigration Continues to Stir Controversy

Aired May 28, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, it`s war, or so they claim. Do illegal immigrants steal jobs from Americans? Are unemployed Americans willing to get out of bed every morning and go to jobs like digging ditches, washing ditches, frying chicken, pouring concrete? Are we really in danger of Congress actually doing something about illegals? I don`t think so.
Tonight, a high-profile voice on the immigration debate, Lou Dobbs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": What I have to say to you is just simply the facts. And we`re going to put the facts before one another here tonight. And Lazaro, the facts are these. The four industries in which illegal aliens constitute the predominant employment are leisure and hospitality, restaurants and hotels, landscaping and construction. And in those four industries, wages have declined for the past four years.

Now, I think what we have to do here tonight is stick to the facts, stick to the issues, and come together. But what we`re not going to do, and we`re going to -- and because we`ve got too many high-charged folks like yourselves up here, and this gentleman from New Jersey and all of these folks in this audience -- you know, we can come together if we can get serious about dealing with the facts.

LAZARO FUENTES, PRES., HISPANIC CHAMBER OF COMMERCE OF LEHIGH VALLEY: How do we explain 4 percent unemployment in the nation...

DOBBS: I don`t have to explain it.

FUENTES: ... and talk about -- talk about a crisis?

DOBBS: I don`t have to explain it. You don`t have to explain it. The fact of the matter is that wages in this country have been stagnant for nearly 30 years. This is about the quality of the jobs, the wage levels, and where we`re going as a nation. And the fact that economics indicate that we have a surplus of labor, rather than a deficit, is something we have to pay attention to. Is it determinant on the issue? No. But it`s part of the facts that we all have to come together on and deal with honestly. And we`re going to continue doing that in just -- I`ll give you the last word.

(APPLAUSE)

FUENTES: Well, it`s -- what we need in this country is unity. The things that are happening in these small towns like Hazleton are disunifying. This country needs solutions, like you`re talking about. We need to look at this as a real issue, as a practical issue. People...

(APPLAUSE)

DOBBS: Yes. This is being approached as a -- I couldn`t agree with you more. But let`s be honest. On both sides, in the far polar extremes of this debate, there is racism, there is radicalism, and the fact is, in the center is the truth and reality from which the American people govern. But if we don`t get honest about what we`re talking about here, talk about a nation of laws, as well as a nation of immigrants, don`t talk about the fact that Mayor Lou Barletta had to take leadership in this community to deal with this issue because the federal government, at the behest of some of the most powerful political forces in this country, have refused to enforce our borders and have refused to enforce our immigration laws. We`re in trouble.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Lou Dobbs is already twisting in his seat. Here in the studio, everyone, a special guest with us tonight, Lou Dobbs. Lou, response.

DOBBS: Well, illegals are not paying taxes. In point of fact, many people have described these protests and demonstrations as an effort to get representation without taxation. The net cost of illegal immigration to American taxpayers is an estimate, and those estimates run anywhere from $50 billion to $200 billion in depressed wages, cost of social services. It`s a remarkable burden.

There`s tremendous benefit, without question, to those illegal employers who boost their profits by exploiting illegal labor, but that is not an intended (ph) benefit to the rest of the economy or to each of us as taxpayers.

GRACE: You know, Lou, many economists would argue that with increased illegal immigration, we have managed to achieve fantastic economic growth in our country, that, in fact, but for these illegal immigrants, we would not have surged forward in the `90s. Response?

DOBBS: Balderdash. The fact is...

GRACE: What`s that?

DOBBS: Balderdash is a word...

GRACE: OK, is that a technical legal term?

DOBBS: I`m neither a lawyer nor particularly technical. The fact of the matter is, when an economist or anyone else expresses a completely outrageous statement like that, you`ve got to respond to it in kind. It`s balderdash. It`s ridiculous. And the fact is that in terms of general GDP, at the margin, most economists would say something like a half a percent in GDP growth. But that does not include the burden on those at the lower wage scales in this country, who are being penalized in their depressed wages by as much as 8 percent to 10 percent.

It is also a straightforward fact that we are creating an underclass with the millions of illegal aliens coming into this country, 60 percent of whom, it`s estimated, don`t even have a high school education, at a time when our schools cannot graduate 50 percent of the Hispanic students in this country, cannot graduate 50 percent of the African-American students in this country. We`re failing a young generation of Americans and yet willing to tolerate an explosion of illegal immigration. It`s nonsensical.

GRACE: Lou Dobbs, yes, a fence, 700 miles -- when I first heard it, I thought it was some type of a political satire. The border is about 2,000 miles. Now, what good is a 700-mile fence? And also, can we get real just a moment? Reality check. Who do you think`s going to build it? Illegals.

DOBBS: Well, it`s an interesting thought. And as you say, I`m sure you`re being satirical and sardonic. But the fact of the matter is we have a very real problem that that`s causing a great, great amount of pain and immense burden to this economy. It`s the experience of everyone who goes to the border, Nancy, the fact that they watch thousands of people crossing our borders. The most traveled part of our southern border with Mexico is across the Arizona border.

Building a 700-mile fence would do a great deal to move people away from that border, and in point of fact, save lives because the Mexican government will not do anything at all to help its citizens. In fact, they are pushing into the Sonora Desert and across our border -- and must, must stop illegal immigration. But they make too much money.

And people focus on the wrong side of the border often. The fact is that Mexico has 50 percent poverty. It is a corrupt and incompetent government.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Let`s start with the role of corporate America in exacerbating this crisis. Mr. Morganelli, you`ve prosecuted. You have used the criminal code. To what degree do you see illegal employers as responsible for the illegal immigration crisis we confront?

JOHN MORGANELLI, DA, NORTHAMPTON COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA: Well, Lou, what I see is that they know -- it`s a wink and a nod. The employers know these people are illegal. They take these phony Social Security cards, which are often invalid numbers or numbers that are issued lawfully to other American citizens. They take phony green cards. And it`s all about cheap labor.

And the reason my office got involved in this, Lou, is because identity theft by illegal aliens is a huge crime in the United States. It`s -- American citizens` Social Security numbers are being utilized by random. And you may not even know that you`re a victim of it. And we see this all across the country. And in my county, thousands of people were arrested using fraudulent documents, four or five different names, four or five different...

DOBBS: Give us your sense of how broad the problem is nationwide. Is it different than the experience in Northampton County, Pennsylvania?

MORGANELLI: Absolutely not, because these are national figures. National figures show -- the U.S. Government Accounting Office recently released identity theft, growing problem, one of the major causes is illegal aliens using other peoples` information.

DOBBS: T.J. Bonner, you`re the problem, you and all those 11,000 Border Patrol agents. If you were doing your job, our borders would be secure.

T.J. BONNER, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: Oh, that it were so, Lou.

(LAUGHTER)

BONNER: Eleven thousand agents to cover 8,000 miles of border, 24/7, translates to a few thousand at any given time out there. The real problem is...

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: A lot of people are saying, Hey, wait a minute. The border with Mexico is just 2,000 -- actually, just a little under.

BONNER: Two thousand, and another 4,000 between the United States and Canada, and then you have some coastal areas.

GRACE: Ah.

BONNER: And we don`t patrol all of the coastal area.

DOBBS: You know, people forget that when we talk about the Border Patrol and adding another 50 percent. Let me ask you this. Why can`t the United States Border Patrol get the resources, the manpower and the commitment of its leadership to secure that border?

BONNER: We`re the United States of America, Lou. We can put a man on the moon and bring him back safely. We can secure borders halfway across the world. If the will were here, we could secure our borders tomorrow. It`s all for lack of will.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Part of the argument against illegals is that they are displacing the poor and minority and sometimes lower-skilled workers. But can I ask you this, Lou? All the people on the Welfare rolls, do you really think they`re going to jump out of bed tomorrow morning at 8:00 o`clock sharp and say, Let`s go lay some brick? Let`s -- let`s green (ph) a lawn.

DOBBS: I`ve got the same problem with your question that I`ve got with what the president of the United States is saying, that there are jobs that Americans won`t do. This is a nation that respects work. This is a nation also of Americans who demand a decent wage for the work that they do. And illegal immigration gives corporate America and illegal employers an opportunity not to do so.

And it was heartrending to look at the Statue of Liberty and to hear your warm words. But the fact is that if we`re embracing illegal immigration from Mexico, Central America and South America, it`s good for the people who use that as an excuse for illegal immigration to remember there are more than 5 billion people of all races, all ethnicities from all around the world who are poorer than the people in Central and South America.

GRACE: You know, Lou, for many years, I have watched you, have listened to your opinions, and you have always been...

DOBBS: Not that many years. Come on!

GRACE: ... OK, one or two -- so pro-capitalist, which I appreciate. But does this seem -- especially when it comes to outsourcing and immigration, does that seem to be anti-capitalist?

DOBBS: I think that there is nothing at all intellectually inconsistent or contradictory. And the reason is this. No one is more free enterprise and pro-democracy than I am. No one has greater regard and respect for capitalism as a driving force in our economy. But at the same time, this has to be a society and an economy as -- of countervailing influences, and we`ve lost that countervailing influence. Name one power in opposition to that of corporate America in our political system in either lobbying or in our legislature. You can`t do it.

GRACE: Zero. Zero. On that I agree with you. I`ve got another tough question before you take off, maybe not tough for you. Why can`t we strengthen our border patrols? Have you looked at your paycheck, how much money is being taken out? Why can`t we afford to strengthen our border patrols?

GRACE: Because both parties of both houses of Congress, this president, and the last three, perhaps four administrations have been directly in the pay and sway of corporate America. And what they want is what they`re getting from both political parties, and the hell with the middle class.

GRACE: To tonight`s "Case Alert." Tomorrow would have been then 13- year-old Chuckie Mauk`s 35th birthday. Instead, his mother still grieves and wonders, who took her boy`s life. Chuckie, just a 13-year-old little boy back in 1986. He was gunned down while riding his bicycle and chewing bubble gum just a few blocks away from his Warner Robins in Georgia home. His murder unsolved.

If you have information, please call the Houston (ph) County Sheriff`s Department at 478-542-2125. Let`s don`t give up on justice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Education is truly the great equalizer. What does that mean for America`s illegal immigrants and for the U.S.? Hey, look at the stats. Even American kids have horrible records. They`re drop-outs. Do they really want to work at McDonald`s forever?

Lou Dobbs is with us. How rich do you have to be to get a good education in America?

DOBBS: Well, right now, I can tell you this, that Hispanics in this country are dropping out of high school. Half of them are dropping out of high school. Black Americans are dropping out, half of them, from high school. Just about a third of white students are dropping out of high school.

I don`t know what it takes, but I know one thing, if we continue to be concerned with these ideas of charter schools and vouchers and we talk about choice instead of quality and demanding excellence in our public school system, which as I say, it`s a great equalizer in our society -- this is not something for a 10-year program like the No Child Left Behind. This is a crisis. It`s an emergency. Governors, educators and the president and Congress have got to respond.

GRACE: You know, you just struck a chord with me. You said education is the great equalizer.

DOBBS: Yes.

GRACE: In our country, like no others -- no other -- you know, my father and mother put us through school.

DOBBS: Right.

GRACE: She was an accountant and he worked on the railroad 42 years.

DOBBS: Right.

GRACE: They didn`t get to go to college. We were the first ones to get to college. That`s all they wanted. And they worked so hard to do it. Now people don`t have that chance.

DOBBS: Unfortunately, it`s absolutely true. When you think back to the early `50s in this country with the GI bill, GIs coming back, based on their desire, their ability, having an opportunity to get an education -- I can name you -- I`m a product of public schools. All of my kids went to public schools. My wife went to public schools. If I hadn`t had five or six teachers...

GRACE: But what are we going to do about it, Lou? We can talk about it until we`re blue in the face. Do you think anybody in Congress is actually going to do something about it? And if they would, what would you want them to do?

DOBBS: Oh, well, we can start with a couple of things. One is the federal government provides just about 8 percent of the total funding of education in this country. The second thing that happens is state and local provides us just about 85 percent of the total funding. But we don`t have a national core curriculum. One in ten teachers has a major in the subject they`re teaching, in the natural sciences and mathematics.

GRACE: Well, you know what? I thought you were going to say one in ten teachers gets arrested for sex with a student. You know, on my end of it, that`s what I`m looking at...

DOBBS: I forgot about your perspective on it.

GRACE: Yes.

When we come back, solutions on fighting the war on the middle class from Lou Dobbs.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Economists argue increased illegal immigration has given the U.S. incredible, almost unheard-of economic growth. They claim if it wasn`t for illegals, our country would never have surged forward back in the `90s. Well, guess what? Lou Dobbs disagrees.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARC LAURITSEN, UNITED FOOD AND COMMERCIAL WORKERS: These are working Americans. They`re working men and women who...

DOBBS: No, no! No, no! No they`re -- wait. Whoa, whoa, partner! Whoa, whoa! You said these are working Americans. We`ve got the Mexican government saying they`re working Mexican nationals. Which are they?

LAURITSEN: All right, well -- all right, well, OK, I apologize. Let`s say it this way. These are working men and women, many of them who are here under the status...

DOBBS: OK, they`re men and women. We can buy that.

LAURITSEN: Let me tell you about Walter Molina (ph) from Grand Island (ph), Nebraska, who is a perfectly...

DOBBS: We have some time constraints. And I understand that you`re trying to bring forth the story of the humanity, the human issues here. And we commiserate.

LAURITSEN: Or the lack of humanity that was used.

DOBBS: But what I don`t understand -- I`m sorry?

LAURITSEN: Or the lack of humanity that was used in this situation.

DOBBS: Well...

LAURITSEN: That`s what was needed, was a little humanity when they dealt with people and they removed them. And there are still people who legally...

DOBBS: My question is, what is your union doing involved with employees who are illegal aliens, who have, in 170 cases, been charged with stealing the identity of American citizens that work there, and the work force, 18 percent of which was illegal? What was your role in all of that?

LAURITSEN: Our role is to represent workers and to see that working people in this country get a fair shake.

DOBBS: Workers or legal workers? Workers or legal workers?

LAURITSEN: They`re people that are working in these facilities that need a fair shake.

DOBBS: No, they`re people working. We understand.

LAURITSEN: And these people...

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: ... whether or not they were legal before you represent them?

LAURITSEN: Our job is to represent people that work in slaughterhouses. That`s what we do. We represent...

DOBBS: So you don`t have a responsibility, as a union, to obey American law?

LAURITSEN: We only can represent -- we represent people that work in these facilities. We don`t hire them.

DOBBS: Ah!

LAURITSEN: We represent them.

DOBBS: OK, let me ask...

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Since you won`t acknowledge a responsibility for that, will you acknowledge a responsibility for the wages they`re paid? What of their wages -- how much have their wages risen over the last 20 years, Marc?

LAURITSEN: Lou, you I both...

DOBBS: In those meat-packing plants.

LAURITSEN: I know where you`re going, and you and I both know that workers don`t depress wages, corporations depress wages. And they depress wages by using a...

DOBBS: No, partner...

LAURITSEN: ... broken immigration system...

DOBBS: No, you and I both know -- Marc, you and I both know that corporations have to pay living wages if there is an influx of illegal labor or surplus labor. And the reason there`s a surplus labor, the very people you`re supposed to be representing, American workers, have watched their wages drop by -- from $19 to $9 an hour because you`re willing to make no distinction between an illegal worker in this country and a lawful, legal American citizen.

LAURITSEN: No. And what has happened here...

DOBBS: What`s your responsibility?

LAURITSEN: What has happened here is that corporations throughout this country have exploited a broken immigration system for their own advantage.

DOBBS: Oh, I couldn`t agree with you more.

LAURITSEN: This government -- this government needs to get on the stick. The Republican Congress that was just voted out of office...

DOBBS: This government -- this government...

LAURITSEN: ... promised us...

DOBBS: You and I agree, Marc...

LAURITSEN: ... promised us...

DOBBS: ... this government is a joke. This government is dysfunctional. It`s irresponsible to the point of criminal negligence.

LAURITSEN: And what I will tell you, Lou, is...

DOBBS: Do we agree?

LAURITSEN: And what I will tell you is what you saw two days ago at these meat-packing plants, was this administration and this government -- another bungling of a job that could have been done a lot better.

DOBBS: Right.

LAURITSEN: This government bungled it, and that`s what they`ve done.

DOBBS: And Marc, how do you explain to your membership, American citizens paying your union dues, that you`re complicit in driving their wages down by participating in the exploitation of these illegal workers?

LAURITSEN: Well, I disagree. We`re the ones that are driving those wages up. We`re pushing them up as best we can. And we`re doing it...

DOBBS: You`re driving them up? You`re kidding!

LAURITSEN: We are the ones that...

DOBBS: Name another industry that`s lost 50 percent of its wage power over the course of the last 20 years.

LAURITSEN: Well, that`s not exactly the truth. The wages in this industry...

DOBBS: Well, no...

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: It`s actually worse than that...

LAURITSEN: The wages in this industry...

DOBBS: ... from $19 to $9 an hour.

LAURITSEN: ... have actually tracked -- no. First of all, the starting wage in those union meat-packing plants is about $11 an hour, and it goes as high as $23 an hour, depending on your job.

DOBBS: Marc, we`ll continue this conversation later. It`s a very simple thing. You`re either part of the problem or you`re part of the solution. If you feel good about where you are, you know, that`s fine. It`s America. And we appreciate you being here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: When we come back: What`s the real pricetag of illegal immigration in this country?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Do illegal immigrants not only threaten our economy and security, but our health? What?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Giving the impression that 11 million illegal aliens, how could we possibly do that with only three reports on disease, three on basically child predators, over the course of 4 1/2 years? Help me out.

MARK POTOK, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Well, Lou, I think that it is true. I stand very much by what I said ...

DOBBS: I thought you might.

POTOK: ... that if one watches your report from day to day, you do get this impression. It`s about, you know, you say things like a third of the federal prison cells are filled with illegal aliens when that is not a provable fact. It is absolutely not known how many are, quote, "illegal aliens."

DOBBS: You guys do a lot of work in prison, Mark.

POTOK: You talk about disease in a similar way. In one of your reports on sexual predators you talked about how, you know, there`s this sort of terrifying trend of sexual predation by quote, "illegal immigrants" and you were basing that report in fact on 36 arrests in New York State. You know, I`ve not seen every single report you`ve done on sexual predators and related issues. Both those are the...

DOBBS: Well, there are only three of them.

POTOK: I`m sorry?

DOBBS: If you would like we can get them to you expediently.

POTOK: The point is, is that the criticism that we made of you over the leprosy claim, which was certainly false, what you claimed was there were 7,000 new cases of leprosy in a recent three-year period, in fact...

DOBBS: Whoa! Whoa.

POTOK: ... when in fact that three year period is about 450 cases.

DOBBS: In point of fact. In point of fact, what we said was, and I think we really should go to that. We did not say there were new cases at any time. And not have you said that there, you`ve said in this e-mail -- well, let`s go first to the ad that was placed in the "New York Times" and "USA Today," and I want to tell our viewers, I want everybody to know I invited Mark Potok and Richard Cohen to join us last week, I believe it was last Wednesday to join us.

Now, in the ad placed in "The New York Times" and the "USA Today" yesterday, the Southern Poverty Law Center in an open letter to CNN, said, quote, "despite being confronted with undisputed evidence to the contrary, Mr. Dobbs says he stands 100 percent behind the claim that there have been 7,000 new cases of leprosy in the United States in recent years."

Mark, Richard, gentlemen, you know we never said they were new cases. What we said in point of fact was that there are 7,000 cases on the active -- active leprosy register. You also ...

RICHARD COHEN, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Lou, Lou, Lou -- you`re letting yourself off too easy, Lou. Let`s be serious here.

DOBBS: I`m sure that you would not permit that, surely.

COHEN: Just wait, Lou. Just wait. You said or your reporter Christine Romans said on May 7th that Hansen`s was a disease so rare that in 40 years only 900 people were afflicted. Suddenly in the past three years America has more than 7,000 cases of leprosy.

DOBBS: Right.

COHEN: I think that makes it -- that`s a pretty strong implication that the number has jumped from 900 to 7,000 or over 7,000 in a very short period of time. You were wrong to claim that.

DOBBS: Let`s listen and I would ask you to listen as well along with our viewers to exactly what Christine Romans said and if we could roll that, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s interesting because the woman in our piece told us that there were about 900 cases of leprosy for 40 years. There have been 7,000 in the past three years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: That report, as you gentlemen know, was done two years ago. In point of fact, the up-tick in cases from 76, I believe in 2000, which was the low point of the number of cases began rising to about 166 and the most recent year reported, 2005, the year in which that report was made.

COHEN: Lou, you`re not being fair. You`re not being fair.

DOBBS: Please.

COHEN: Let me finish. Miss Romans repeated the same kind of outrageous claim on your show on May 7th. The thing that -- leprosy cases haven`t been going up in recent years, Lou; they`ve been bouncing around. You can see the figures, 133, 134, 131, you`re looking at the same numbers I am. What has increased are the number of hate crimes against Latinos. It`s a serious problem, Lou, and you ought to talk about it.

DOBBS: How much have they increased?

COHEN: Let me finish. Let me finish. The reality is that hate crimes occur because people demonize Latinos and other persons in our country. They spread false statistics about it. The 7,000 figure that you`ve done on your show is all over hate Web sites. You, Lou, unfortunately are one of the most popular people on the white supremacist Web sites.

Let me finish. You can`t -- you can`t -- you`re not responsible, Lou, for people who admire you, but you`ve got to ask yourself why the Council of Conservative Citizens considers you their favorite pundit.

DOBBS: Well, I will leave that to you to divine, and as you have interestingly created some rather -- what I consider to be tangential discussion, I think you know, I certainly knows that Mark Potok knows that I think the CCC is a reprehensible organization based on its beliefs and its attitudes. I think you know that very well.

So I`m not quite sure what you`re going to, but let me go back to something here because I don`t want to let you off quite that easily, either. So we did not say we quite agree that there were 7,000 new cases. We said there were 7,000 on the registry. I want to talk to you about...

COHEN: I didn`t agree with what you just said.

DOBBS: I`m sorry?

COHEN: I didn`t agree with what you just said. Miss Romans said on May 7, again, there have been 400 cases for years and suddenly in the last three years there were 7,000 cases. I think that implies there`s been an explosive growth, and you have got the statistics in front of you. I heard you cite them. That`s not the case.

DOBBS: Let me cite them for everybody one more time, and if we`ve got that graphic I`d like to do that, which in, by the way, in your publication you said the cases have been declining. Since 2000, they have in fact been doubling, rising from 76 to 110, to 133 to 131, 166 and you just listened to one of the most foremost experts in Bill Tucker`s report say to you that they are absolutely, absolutely understated and significantly so.

COHEN: And they`ve always been understated, Lou.

DOBBS: But let`s go to the more important issue here, if we may. You also took me to task for using the source that was in the report that Christine Romans did. Now, I want to be clear here. We`re talking about 31 words uttered more than two years ago by Christine Romans in response to a question from me, just before going to commercial break. She did not ever -- the report by Bill Tucker is the first report on this broadcast ever about leprosy in relation to illegal immigration, and you gentlemen both know that.

POTOK: If I may make one point here.

DOBBS: The only person that has made anything of this has been you, gentlemen, and I can`t imagine your motivation for doing so.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: When we come back, solutions on fighting the war on the middle class from Lou Dobbs.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: War on the middle class. Lou Dobbs isn`t just complaining and whining about it; he`s not just another talking head; Lou is actually trying to do something about it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s our government doing to ensure that these new jobs that are being created are going to be good, middle-class, American jobs?

DOBBS: That`s a wonderful question. And by the way, literally, tens of millions of Americans all over the country are asking very similar questions. Congressman, fire away.

REP. JIM DAVIS (D), FLORIDA: Well we are in a unique opportunity to benefit from trade, Lou, if we get the details right. And Mike is a leader in Miami in the state of Florida with the Teamsters. But the question is identifying the kinds of goods and services that countries to the south of us need and how we provide those. It is critical to have a president that enforces labor and environmental protections to have a level playing field. We have not had that with President Bush. Consequently, as you know...

DOBBS: We didn`t have it with President Clinton, either. Let`s keep it...

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: ... keep the record straight.

DAVIS: No, I understand that. But this is about where we go the next two years and where we go throughout the next presidential election.

DOBBS: Right.

DAVIS: And President Clinton did not build the foundation either. But now it needs to be built among Democrats and Republicans. And that`s to have trade agreement that have protections in terms of environmental labor standards and to have a president that enforces that. And that`s how you make sure that trade is a two-way street where we can truly benefit. Here in Florida, if we have those kinds of trade agreements, we will benefit.

DOBBS: Well, let me, if I may, follow up on your question. And that is, he`s talking about folks making $7, less than $7 an hour, you said. I know that that still would be the Florida minimum wage, which is significantly higher than the $5.15 minimum wage -- the federal minimum wage. But what in the world is the attitude that people can`t join a union if they want to, if they want to create a union and be represented? What`s the deal there?

DAVIS: Right. There should not be a hostile attitude towards organized labor in this state. There has been from time to time in Tallahassee and certainly in Washington as well. But the problem he`s describing is much broader than trade and trucking. We are a high-cost, low-wage state now.

DOBBS: All right.

DAVIS: And whether it`s insurance or property taxes, unless we start investing in education and job training to target the kind of jobs that will benefit whether it`s trade or anything in the economy, we in Florida are going to lose the middle class.

DOBBS: We got one more question. Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Shaun Cutter (ph). I`m an I.T. developer. And you talk about education (INAUDIBLE) I see I.T. developing jobs going to India. You know, what can be done to keep the -- you know people who go to college, get an education, to keep those jobs here? And also with NAFTA and CAFTA, what can be done you know before these trade agreements were put into effect, we were exporting goods to Mexico. We had a surplus of Mexico. We had a surplus overseas. And now we see trade deficits with all of the countries, Canada, Mexico, China, and what can be done to -- you know so we are creating jobs here that export goods, other countries want to buy our goods.

DOBBS: Congressman?

DAVIS: Right. A lot of the trade deficit is attributable to the heavy flood of cheap consumer goods from China and the Far East. Our advantage as Americans is our ingenuity and our innovation. What we need to be doing is investing in the next generation of engineers and scientists. A lot of the students in our graduate schools now are from other countries because we are not filling those spots. We educate them. They leave and compete against us.

So I think the ultimate deficit here is one of human capital. And we need to get very bullish about investing in education, starting in early childhood, kindergarten through 12th grade and higher education to create the next generation of engineers and scientists.

DOBBS: Did you vote for CAFTA?

DAVIS: I did not.

(APPLAUSE)

DOBBS: You`re a good man, Congressman. Let me say why. Because what wasn`t said there is that these are not free trade agreements that this country`s been entering into in, either a bilateral basis or in any other form in the case of CAFTA. These are outsourcing agreements, and it`s that straightforward. The off-shoring by U.S. multinationals stripping American middle-class jobs and this country has got to awaken to it, because I can guarantee you that folks we talk to all over the country, not just here in Tampa, but across the country, they`ve had a bellyful.

DAVIS: I withheld...

(APPLAUSE)

DAVIS: I withheld my vote on CAFTA because of enforcement issues we talked about and also to try to pressure the president to start investing in job training. And, Lou, I believe our future in globalization is the nation`s governors, Democrat and Republican, aggressively investing and training Mike`s workers, the next generation of college graduates and vocational students so we can compete.

DOBBS: I admire the sentiment, I admire the goal. I support it. There`s just one problem. Right now half of all black students in this country are dropping out of high school. Half of Hispanic students are dropping out of high school. The national graduation rate, if you believe the Department of Education statistics, are that we have a 70 percent graduation rate. And that`s inexcusable. Before we start job training, we`ve got to start -- we`ve got to recapture the great equalizer, don`t you think, Congressman, in this society, that great equalizer is our public education system.

(APPLAUSE)

DAVIS: Lou, I ran for governor because this state is nearly last in the country in spending in education and graduation rate and SAT scores. And people in this room and in this state are demanding we change and start investing in our people again.

(APPLAUSE)

DOBBS: Amen. And, Congressman, I can`t tell you how proud I am that you said investing in our people, not in human capital. I love the sound of that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Tonight, on this Memorial Day, we stop to honor our bravest, men and women who sacrificed their lives for our country, American heroes.

Marine Lance Corporal Jeffrey D. Walker, just 21 from my hometown, Macon, Georgia. Army Private First Class Christopher Murphy, just 21, Gladys, Virginia. Army Private First Class Daniel Courneya, 19, Nashville, Michigan. Army Specialist Astor Sunsin-Pineda, just 20, Long Beach, California. Army First Lieutenant Colby Umbrell, 26, Pennsylvania. Army Private First Class Bryan Botello, 19, Alta, Iowa. Joel Lewis, 28, Sand Springs, Oklahoma. Army Staff Sergeant Vincenzo Romeo, just 23, Lodi, New Jersey. Army Sergeant Major Bradley Conner, 41, Coeur d`Alene, Idaho.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: I want to thank all my guests tonight, but our biggest thank you is to you, for inviting us into your home. Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight.

But before we go, our show mascot, my mother, Elizabeth, and a little girl with a big, big voice, Allison Johnson has something very special for you. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END