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TB Traveler Speaks to Congress; U.S. border Officer Ignored Health Alert on Andrew Speaker; Pope Security Breach

Aired June 06, 2007 - 10:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. You're with CNN. You're informed.
I'm Tony Harris.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I'm Heidi Collins.

Developments keep coming into the CNN NEWSROOM on this Wednesday, June the 6th.

Here's what's on the rundown.

Dropping the ball on the TB case? The head of the CDC testifies before Congress.

HARRIS: Jailed for teen sex, even after a change in the law. A judge may decide if Genarlow Wilson can go free.

COLLINS: And no free rides on the popemobile. A man's jump lands him in the arms of papal security -- in the NEWSROOM.

The TB traveler speaks to Congress. Andrew Speaker set to testify by phone from Denver, where he is hospitalized with a rare form of tuberculosis.

CNN's Brianna Keilar is in our Washington bureau.

Brianna, what's the latest?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Heidi, we are still waiting to hear from Andrew Speaker, the TB patient at the center of this whole controversy, but we did hear from Julie Gerberding, head of the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And she told the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee that when the CDC finally got in contact with Speaker while he was on his honeymoon in Rome, they told him about some different options to bring him back to the U.S.

They called these short-term, as well as long-term options. And among them were an air ambulance using military transport. Also, they considered using a CDC aircraft.

But in the end, they found that not all these options were available or safe. And, of course, in the end these efforts were moot, because Speaker headed back to North America on a commercial airplane without telling U.S. officials of his plans. Gerberding did say that a plan needs to be in place for situations like this in the future.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JULIE GERBERDING, CDC DIRECTOR: We would love it if we had a large pot of money so any person in the United States who had a problem abroad could be paid to have transport home by their government. I don't think that's going to be realistic. But when we are in a situation where someone is putting someone else at risk by flying commercially, we need to be able to move that person safely home in an appropriate aircraft.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And we are also waiting to hear from the head of the Fulton County Health Department. This could be a situation of he said-he said when it's held up against Speaker's testimony, because Speaker has said that Fulton County health officials told him they preferred he didn't travel, but didn't say he definitely should not travel. And the health department says they told him not to fly -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Wow. So many questions still to be answered. We will be watching this one.

CNN's Brianna Keilar.

Thank you.

HARRIS: A series of tests show that Speaker is considered not very contagious. OK. What does that mean?

So, what is this all about, the hearing this morning?

Elizabeth Cohen joining us now.

At the very least doctor, Dr. Julie Gerberding, from the CDC, seems to be about setting the record straight. She wants the story out there in her terms. Not happy with the way it's been laid out to this point.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. This has gotten very, very confusing. Someone -- someone said to me you can't be a little bit pregnant. Either you are either pregnant or you are not.

HARRIS: Yes. Yes.

COHEN: So you can't be a little bit contagious. Either you're contagious or you're not.

Well, guess what? You can -- it's true. You can't be a little pregnant. You can be a little bit contagious. It is possible.

Let me talk a little bit about infectiousness and how it works.

Andrew Speaker, who you see here, doctors described as being relatively non-contagious, meaning that he was somewhat contagious. That's another way to put it.

On the continuum of extremely contagious to non-contagious, he fell somewhere along that continuum. He was somewhat contagious. Now, he wasn't as contagious as someone who is deathly ill and sneezing tuberculosis bacteria all over the place.

HARRIS: Yes.

COHEN: So, what they said to him, according to the Fulton County health people, is, look, you are not highly contagious, but you're somewhat contagious, and we would prefer that you stay put.

HARRIS: Jurisdiction seems to be an authority here. It seems to be at issue in this hearing as well. It's about the question of when the CDC or when any of these health organizations can actually step in and stop from you traveling if you have a contagious disease.

COHEN: Right. That is a huge question, and that's being debated right now. In this case, let's take it in Atlanta.

HARRIS: Sure.

COHEN: When Andrew Speaker was in Atlanta, and they knew that he had culture-positive TB, they suggested to him that he not travel. They said, we would prefer that you not travel.

Now, could they have just stuck him in an isolation room and just said, we are worried about your traveling. We know you really want to go get married. We're just going to stick you in an isolation room. Well, that's a point of contention.

On the one hand, Julie Gerberding saying, you would have had to have had a court order. You would have had to had proof. He would have had to demonstrated that he was about to be non-compliant, or that he was non-compliant.

I spoke with another legal authority that said, look, if someone is a threat to the public health, is actually infectious, you don't need a court order. You can put that person in an isolation room and then talk to the judge later. So that's going to be a big point of debate here.

HARRIS: To that point, Julie Gerberding admitting that more could have been done. The health officials could have been more aggressive in this case, correct?

COHEN: Right. I mean, public health officials are not known for their aggressiveness. Usually they like to -- they say, you know what? Tony, we're worried.

HARRIS: We'll give you the benefit of the doubt, we'll work with you.

COHEN: Yes. Yes, exactly.

We would really rather you wouldn't travel. That's the way they probably put it. Our advice to you is to not to travel.

And you know what? Most people, when you look them in the eye and say please don't travel, guess what? They don't travel.

HARRIS: They listen.

COHEN: They listen.

HARRIS: All right.

Elizabeth Cohen with us this morning.

Elizabeth, thank you.

COHEN: Thanks.

COLLINS: Now the national security implications.

Joining us with a closer look, CNN Homeland Security Correspondent Jeanne Meserve. She is in Washington this morning.

Jeanne, good morning to you.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Heidi.

As you know, Customs & Border Protection has been getting absolutely hammered ever since it was determined that Andrew Speaker was let into the country by a Customs & Border Protection official in Champlain, New York. Today, a mea culpa from a top homeland security official.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RALPH BASHAM, CUSTOMS & BORDER PROTECTION: Let me state at the outset to this committee and the American people, CBP had an opportunity to detain Mr. Speaker at the border and we missed. That missed opportunity is inexcusable, and it appears at this stage to be largely the result of a CBP officer failing to follow procedures and instructions. That failure is felt collectively by all of CBP's leadership and all of the front line employees whose good work and reputation are tarnished by his actions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: Ralph Basham says that the officer involved was an 18- year veteran. He said it had nothing to do with understaffing or training, but the agent's clear and blatant disregard of instructions that had been given to him.

Now, a couple of things are changing in terms of processes. This agent who was on the front line overrode an alert that was in the system. Now homeland security officials say front line officers are no longer going to have the discretion to do that on their own.

Secondly, there is a matter of coordination here. CDC had called Customs & Border Protection in Atlanta and told them about Speaker. But CBP in Atlanta, although they put an alert in the system, hadn't passed news of this up through the chain, so it went higher within the Department of Homeland security. So TSA was not informed.

Today, one official saying that probably is going to change. They will no longer rely on the discretion of front line agents on whether to kick that information up the chain. It will be done automatically.

But Ralph Basham saying today, despite all the changes that are being made, despite all they've learned from all of this, because there is a human element involved here, he can't make any promise that something like this won't happen again.

Back to you.

COLLINS: Yes. And I guess that's where the questions come about, Jeanne, when we talk about the future.

Was this particular individual, the 18-year veteran that you are talking about, within his discretion at the time? We understand the process has now changed, but was it all right for him to do that on that very day?

MESERVE: Front line agents had been begin the discretion to override alerts. Apparently, however, the wording on this one was pretty darn clear that this guy ought to have a mask put on him and he should be isolated, and public health authorities should be notified. We did find out in this hearing, by the way, that there is apparently tape of the interaction between this agent, Andrew Speaker, and his wife. It lasted less than two minutes.

COLLINS: One quick last question for you. I believe I remember that that particular individual at the border patrol there was put on leave.

Is he back to work? Has he lost his job? What's the status there?

MESERVE: He was actually put on administrative duties while the investigation continued. That investigation is still going on.

There are privacy laws here. There are employment laws here that all have to be taken into account. We may not know for some time all the results of that investigation.

COLLINS: All right. Understood.

CNN Homeland Security correspondent Jeanne Meserve.

Jeanne, thank you.

MESERVE: You bet.

HARRIS: Boy, this could be a tricky 24-hour period here for the plains States. Chad Myers is following that story for us in the severe weather center.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: Still to come in the NEWSROOM this morning, funeral for a fallen soldier as the hunt continues for two of his comrades ambushed in Iraq.

Details straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

COLLINS: Republicans putting distance between themselves and President Bush. Iraq, immigration -- we'll hit the highlights from the GOP presidential debate in the NEWSROOM.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I am Alessio Vinci in Rome. A man this morning at the Vatican trying to catch a ride on the popemobile.

I'll tell you what happened next.

COLLINS: And now meet California's newest millionaire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hit the big one, you know? Where do you go from here?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Nice. He's going to the bank. How he turned pennies into a bundle ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Far more than a leap of faith. Take a look at this. A man lunges over a barricade and tries to jump into the open-air vehicle carrying Pope Benedict XVI.

Well, let's go live to our Rome bureau chief, Alessio Vinci.

Alessio, I have seen this video several times now. I can't seem to stop watching it.

VINCI: Well, yes, it's good video. It doesn't happen every Wednesday, does it?

The general audience happens every Wednesday and is an opportunity for pilgrims around the world who are here in Rome to come up close and personal with the pope. Well, actually, this man tried to come a bit too close, jumping over that fence, through one cordon of security officers, and then eventually trying to grab the car of the pope. And then he was quickly apprehended by the Vatican -- the pope's detail, the Swiss Guards.

So, Vatican officials now downplaying a little bit this incident, primarily because this man was unarmed. And it turns out that he was a 27-year-old German guy with some history of mental illness. And he told Vatican police that he basically did not want to harm the pope, but simply attract attention to himself. And he certainly did this morning.

COLLINS: Yes. And boy, it's amazing how quickly, obviously, those security guards are acting once he jumps over that barricade there. I wonder if the pope ever even realized what was going on behind him.

VINCI: Well, judging from the pictures, certainly he didn't. As you can see, everything happens behind him. And usually, you know, if the security threat is really serious, the car carrying the pope should sort of run away. But as a matter of fact, I guess the quick decision was made there to proceed at normal speed.

The man was quickly apprehended, and the pope himself did not appear to have noticed what happened. As a matter of fact, the general audience ended up going smoothly, and there was no changes to the pope's schedule, and the day progressed as planned.

So, certainly Vatican officials are not concerned about this particular incident. I am sure though that at this time right here behind me, security officials are asking themselves a very simple question, how did it happen? How did it happen that someone could come so close?

This man was not supposed to arrive this close to the car. He jumped over that fence. That is already a mistake.

I spoke earlier today with a former bodyguard for Pope John Paul II. He watched the video. He said the detail did exactly what they were supposed to do, basically wrestling this guy down.

At the same time, though, a mistake was made, because this individual was not supposed to jump over that fence. And that sort of peripheral security, if you want, around the Swiss Guards, that did not work. Clearly, someone got distracted and the man managed to get all the way to the car.

Fortunately, in this case he was not armed. And we should also point out that ever since John Paul II was shot in that very same square back in 1981, the security measures at the Vatican, when the pope is in the square, are extremely strict.

Everybody goes through a metal detector. So it is quite difficult to actually bring a gun into St. Peter's Square. At the same time, though, on any given Wednesday, there are thousands of people, if not tens of thousands on certain occasions, and so one should perhaps even think about what would happen if, you know, through these thousands of security checks, one man manages to bring in a gun or even a weapon?

COLLINS: Yes. Boy, it is pretty unbelievable. But once again, we should say he was unarmed.

I don't know, maybe they'll make the barricades taller or something. Rome Bureau Chief Alessio Vinci.

Thanks so much.

HARRIS: Republicans taking aim at Democrats over national security. Some taking a few jabs at President Bush. The GOP presidential candidates faced off over Iraq, immigration and more at their debate in New Hampshire.

CNN's Mary Snow has some of the highlights.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For the 10 Republican presidential candidates, the jousting over immigration reform was not as heated as expected.

Senator John McCain was on the defense for supporting the immigration reform bill that would legalize millions of illegal immigrants.

JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And it is a serious national security problem. We need to act, my friends. And if someone else has a better idea, I would love to have them pursue -- give it to us.

SNOW: Mitt Romney, who has been taking direct aim at McCain over immigration, passed on hitting back hard at him, instead calling McCain his friend, and talked about what he proposed to do.

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, one is to enforce the law as it exists. The law that was passed in 1986.

(APPLAUSE)

SNOW: Republican Rudy Giuliani targeted Democrats over national security, taking aim at John Edwards' claim that the war on terror is bumper sticker politics.

RUDY GIULIANI (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We saw just last week in New York an attempt by Islamic terrorists to attack JFK airport. Three weeks ago an attempt to attack Fort Dix.

These are real problems. This war is not a bumper sticker. This war is a real war.

SNOW: And there was a jab at President Bush. Asked how candidates would use the president in their administration, Congressman Tom Tancredo recalled how he was told by political adviser Karl Rove that he wasn't welcomed at the White House for criticizing the president.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm afraid I would have to tell the president of the United States -- I mean, as president, I would have to tell George Bush exactly the same thing Karl Rove told me. (END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Former Wisconsin governor Tommy Thompson criticized President Bush's diplomatic skills. He says he wouldn't send him to the United Nations to represent the United States.

President Bush meets with world leaders at the G8 summit amid new tensions with Russia. The latest from the summit site coming up in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: An important story just in breaking in Iraq. Something that we need to share with you because it has broad implications.

Several thousand Turkish troops, we understand, according to The Associated Press, have crossed into northern Iraq today to chase Kurdish guerrillas who we understand are operating from bases there. This again is according to The Associated Press.

We understand that a raid was limited in scope and that it did not constitute the kind of large incursion that Turkish leaders have been discussing in recent weeks. The officials who were speaking on this story did not say where the Turkish force was operating in northern Iraq, nor did they refer to how long they would be there.

This is an important story. We will continue to follow it for you here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

COLLINS: Another mass kidnapping in Iraq. The second in as many weeks this. This time, the target is the government office that registers displaced Iraqis for refugee status.

Officials say gunmen seized a dozen people, later freeing all but the man in charge of the department.

In the earlier kidnapping, five Britons and two Iraqis were seized from the Finance Ministry in Baghdad. Still no word on their fate.

Also in Baghdad today, two car bombings rocked the streets leading to the city's most revered Shiite shine. At least reportedly seven people dead, 27 wounded.

HARRIS: Funeral services this hour for one of three U.S. soldiers who went missing after an ambush in Iraq. Private First Class Joseph Anzack Jr. is being buried in Arlington National Cemetery. The body of the 20year-old was pulled from a river south of Baghdad two weeks ago. Two of his comrades are still missing after the May 12th ambush. Four other American soldiers died in that attack.

COLLINS: A new risk between the United States and Russia the focus of attention as world leaders gathering for the G8 summit this hour. Global warming and aid to Africa among the key issues up for discussion. But along with that, rising tensions over U.S. plans to deploy a missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic.

President Bush trying to calm Russian fears, saying the plans are not a threat to Russia. Russian President Vladimir Putin also attending the summit. He has accused the U.S. of starting a new arms race and threatened to retarget Russian missiles on Europe in response to the U.S. plans.

HARRIS: The G8 summit, held in an exclusive resort with a rich history, now even more exclusive, encircled by security.

CNN's Frederik Pleitgen takes a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Germans call it the White City, Heiligendamm, the venue for this year's G8 summit. On the coast of the Baltic Sea, it's Germany's oldest seaside resort. From the air, Heiligendamm gleams, but it didn't always look this majestic.

When it was in communist East Germany, Heiligendamm was a run- down sanatorium for workers. Nowadays, after investors have spent millions refurbishing the resort, it's a luxurious retreat.

(on camera): Heiligendamm is one of the oldest and most exclusive resorts in Germany. It was built in the late 18th century, and today, it's one of the most expensive five-star hotels in this country.

(voice-over): The man who first made it fashionable, the Grand Duke of Mechlenberg (ph), the first in a line of German royals who came here for summer vacations. Much later, Adolf Hitler often visited the resort in summer. In fact, until earlier this year, he was still an honorary citizen of the district.

Heiligendamm also has its own steam train, locals call it the Mulli (ph) train. But this week, the Mulli train goes past a fence with barbed wire on its way to Heiligendamm . Authorities here have erected an eight-mile long barrier around the G8 venue to keep protesters out.

More than 16,000 police officers will be on duty during the summit, including hundreds on boats patrolling the coast to protect world leaders as they meet. President Bush has been to this area before in 2006. Chancellor Angela Merkel invited Bush to her home district, (INAUDIBLE), for a casual meeting and a picnic, where the two leaders ate wild boar together.

Not much casual about the place this week. Heiligendamm has been transformed from a luxury retreat into a high-security zone. Even local residents can't enter.

Frederik Pleitgen, CNN, Heiligendamm.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: The TB traveler, what he knew and when he knew it. Hear it in his own words as he testifies to Congress by telephone.

That story ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Bottom of the hour. You are back in the CNN NEWSROOM. Hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.

COLLINS: And I'm Heidi Collins. We are still waiting to hear from the TB traveler. This man, Andrew Speaker, scheduled to testify in a congressional hearing about the public health threat he posed. Technical problems have delayed his testimony by phone from Denver where he is hospitalized with a rare form of tuberculosis. He knew he had the disease when he traveled to Europe. Then a lone U.S. border official ignored health alerts and allowed him back onto the U.S. from Canada. The security failure has prompted a tightening of procedures.

HARRIS: A closed conference today in the Genarlow Wilson case. Wilson is the former Georgia honors student serving 10 years for consensual sex with a girl two years younger than himself. Rick Sanchez is here with the very latest. Boy you have spent a lot of time on this case. Great work by the way.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks.

HARRIS: What is the court considering today?

SANCHEZ: Nothing different than what the legislature was considering several months ago when we went and spoke to them. The idea is you have a 17-year-old boy who has consensual sex with a 15- year-old girl. This is not a 40-year-old man, it's a 17-year-old boy. The idea that he would be found guilty of aggravated sexual battery and be sent to prison for 10 years and be treated as a sexual offender the rest of his life seems to most people ludicrous.

What he did was stupid and he'll admit to it. A bunch of kids sitting there doing drugs in a hotel room having sex is wrong. But the idea that he would be sent to prison for 10 years, that's the crux of the argument. So here's what happened, Tony. There was a law passed by the legislature after he was convicted that said this is an antiquated law and we should be change it. Fine, they changed the law but Genarlow didn't get grandfathers in. The idea is, sorry, bad luck. So he is now going to court. First he went to the legislature. I'm going to show you a clip now.

Because when this went to the legislature they decided we are not going to let him free because he raped a girl. That's what the guy said. Raped her. This is not a rape. That's important for viewers to understand. Here is me with one of those legislators when he went before the session and essentially used those words and I went out to the legislature building here in Georgia and confronted him on it. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: You feel bad about the fact that you characterized this as a rape when you were talking yesterday in the Senate?

ERIC JOHNSON, GEORGIA STATE SENATE: No.

SANCHEZ: No. You don't have any problem with that? It wasn't a rape.

JOHNSON: It's a rape in my mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: A rape in his mind. Well, let me tell you what the law says. The law says it wasn't a rape. And I've spoken to the jurors and I've spoken to the ...

HARRIS: He was acquitted of that charge. Correct?

SANCHEZ: You are absolutely correct. And that's where there's nuance there. Because there were other girls there at the time. There was a girl he was charged with raping, but the jurors looked at the videotape and said that was not a rape because as far as they were concerned, it was consensual.

HARRIS: Defense attorneys are asking what specifically here? That the conviction be overturned, that his record be cleared? How much time has he served here? And perhaps he should be ...

SANCHEZ: That's just it. He's already done two years. By what you would consider the grandfather clause, in other words, if a 17- year-old does the very same thing today, he would get maybe a year as a misdemeanor in prison. He's already served two years. They are going to a judge saying, your honor, just in fairness, how can possibly you let this kid stay in jail for that long? That's really the crux of their argument. There's obviously a lot of legal haranguing going on talking about issues like whether he had enough competent attorneys. But I think they are just trying to give the judge something to bite on so the judge can say this is unfair and we do need to overturn this.

HARRIS: The attorney general here in Georgia, Thurbert Baker ...

SANCHEZ: That's right.

HARRIS: Where does he stand on this case? Is he against the whole notion and the filings and everything else?

SANCHEZ: He hasn't really made a decision. But I will tell you this. There is a lot of pressure coming his way from a lot of the legislator. Now there seems to be -- there's pressure on both sides, let's face it. "The New York Times" has repeatedly run editorials.

HARRIS: Who else do you grandfather in? Come on.

SANCHEZ: And Jimmy Carter has now stepped into the fray as a former governor of the state of Georgia saying he thinks this is an exaggerated sentence and that he believes there may be some racist overtones in this case because he says he's had some of his associated check the record and they haven't found cases like this affecting youngsters or 17-year-olds, not quite sure what word -- it is that bubble between adulthood and being a minor that were not African Americans.

HARRIS: Right. Great work on this story. We'll see what happens on Monday.

SANCHEZ: Sure. Thanks, Tony.

COLLINS: Quickly want to take you to the Senate appropriations hearing. We are now listening to Andrew Speaker on the phone testifying before this department. Let's go ahead and listen in and hear his side of the story.

ANDREW SPEAKER, TB TRAVELER (on phone): Actually on that day, I'm sorry I don't have the exact date, but I spoke with an official from the CDC, conveyed my plans about the wedding. They did know about this. This wasn't something hidden. This was something that was out in the open that numerous officials at the CDC, at the county level, my doctors, that everyone knew about. And I started treatment at that point. CDC started doing -- and cut me off at any time -- I'm just going to speak.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead.

SPEAKER: CDC at that time, I had a bronchoscopy and they started doing cultures. So when I had the much-discussed meeting on May 10th, at that point on May 10th, CDC was aware of my travel plans. While it may not have been communicated up the chain of command, that's not something I'm really privy to. But I do know not just my father-in- law, but numerous people at CDC knew of the travel plans. And it was CDC who was doing the testing to help come back with the fact that I had MDR TB.

And that was by the day May 10th. I'm not sure how far in advance they knew that. I know at that meeting May 10th I was made aware. Right now there's this -- I understand people's utter fear with this because they hear on the news and on TV that with the TB, even if I'm smear negative, I'm not highly contagious, but there is still a chance.

And I hope that you and the committee understand when I sat there on May 10th with MDR TB, it was my father, my father-in-law, my bride- to-be, my doctor and the health official and none of us were wearing masks. I was repeatedly told that I was not contagious. Not that I was partly contagious, but that I was not contagious. I was not a threat to anyone. I was walking around doing my job.

As far as I knew from my medical advice, I don't think anyone is going to get up in front of you today and tell you otherwise. I was clearly told I was not contagious. And they were letting me walk around and go about my business. So I looked to the people who I believe I should trust to tell me whether or not I'm a threat to those around me and they told me I wasn't. No one ever told me I was a threat to my wife or my daughter. And if they had have, obviously if I got to that meeting and they said you have MDR TB, either my father- in-law would have said you'd better be careful and stay away from my daughter and granddaughter because you could get them sick.

My dad would not have let me be around my mother. And I just myself would not have been around my wife or my daughter and taken that risk that I could give them this. I don't want this and I wouldn't have wanted to give it to somebody else. As I said, CDC knew that I had it. They were aware that I was going on my travels and yes, I was told that Fulton County would prefer I would not travel. But I was also told I was not contagious, I was told I was not a threat to anyone, there was no need to sequester me.

With that information, it -- sitting here in quarantine in isolation and yet I'm still smear negative and so maybe they should have told me before, but I'm not a doctor. They should have told me two weeks ago, look, you are a threat to your family and those around you. Get out to Denver. But at that meeting we knew it would take two to three weeks to find out what type of -- I believe it's MIC, my minimum resistance, which drugs I was susceptible to. It would take a few weeks to get a bed in Denver. And as long as I'm walking around and not a threat to anyone, why not go on my honeymoon for the next two to three weeks instead of just sitting at work and going to court and doing everything else?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker, again, this is information again I wish I had prior to Dr. Gerberding leaving. She had to leave to go over to the House side. But I intend to call her back now or at least I will keep her on the record on this. You are saying that on May the 10th, that you were in a meeting with people from both the Fulton County but there were people there from CDC, are you saying that?

SPEAKER: What I am saying, sir, and by default, yes, my father- in-law was there, but he was not acting in a CDC capacity. CDC was doing resistance testing and was communicating that to Fulton County who I had the meeting with. So they were aware of the drug resistance. CDC had my culture and were doing the resistance testing on it which they passed on to Fulton County and so they knew that I was MDR on the 10th. And they knew I was traveling. They knew I was traveling because I told the CDC official when I went to Fulton County weeks before this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see, Mr. Speaker, what I have learned is -- and two questions here. I was told earlier and I went at length on this, that the Fulton County officials, and we have Dr. Katkowsky here and we'll ask him about that, that CDC was notified on May 18th, that you had an MDR strain. It is your contention CDC knew about this before that?

SPEAKER: There were conversations back and forth between my doctors, the doctors out here in Denver, CDC, Fulton County, they were all discussing this because of the fact there was resistance and to set up bed and talking about getting me out to Denver. All this was being discuss before that meeting on the 10th. That's how they knew it would take weeks to find out what was left that I was susceptible to.

And the CDC was doing those drug resistance tests. So to say they didn't know when they were coming up with the resistance is ridiculous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So before this meeting on May the 10th, you had already been in conversations with your doctors and with health officials and with people out at National Jewish Hospital?

SPEAKER: Yes, sir. Because the meeting on the 10th was called because I was already on -- they had asked me to go on your standard, their standard four drugs you treat someone with TB with. I had been on them for a few weeks. They called the meeting because they said, look, you are resistant to these. So we might as well take you off them because they are not doing any good. And let's talk about your treatment plan and what drugs are left. That was the purpose of the meeting to talk about what my future treatment would be because they knew that I was resistant and now we need to figure out the next step and that next step was trying to get a bed in Denver and figuring out what my resistance would be.

But I'm still -- mind you, I'm still walking around this whole time going to court. And no one said a single word to me, including at that meeting to me, that I am a threat to anyone. And I want people to understand that. I'm not walking around knowing I have TB, not seeking treatment, I am following all the guidelines of treatment my doctor is telling me at that time. At that time I was on medication. They are the one whose took me off because they knew it wasn't doing any good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see. One last thing. I think you mentioned, that I picked up -- I made a note on and want to make sure I'm correct on this. Did you say you contacted CDC in April or your doctor contacted CDC?

SPEAKER: Sir, Fulton County, my doctors as part of protocol contacted Fulton County to let them know I had TB. So Fulton County called me and I went down to Fulton County and met with a CDC official who was working with Fulton County and who interviewed me. I told them about my wedding plans and told him about my travel plans. At that time, my health provider had already put me on the standard four drug regimen a few days before.

And they took another sputum test at that time, which is some time I think early-mid April, which came back negative. They said, OK, continue your treatment. When I was speaking to Fulton County, at that time we didn't know it was resistant and you get treatment every 30 days. And that 30 days would have lapsed while I was in Europe. So I told them that they needed to give me an extra 30 days before I left so I didn't run out while I was in Europe on my honeymoon, so I could keep taking my medication.

This is before, you know, they took me off of it because I was resistant. So to claim everyone knew I was going, I didn't go running off or hide from people. It's complete fallacy and it's a lie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker, this is interesting news. We have the Dr. Katkowsky here and will go over with him about Fulton County. We'll move on to that right now. And please stay on the line. I will come back to you. But I want you to hear their testimony.

Dr. Katkowsky and Dr. Deler (ph) and we'll be back with you. So stay on the line with us. Now we'll turn to Dr. Katkowsky, director of the Department of Health and Wellness, Fulton County Department of Health. Dr. Katkowsky, welcome to committee and please go ahead and proceed and fill us in on the circumstances as you know them.

DR. STEVEN KATKOWSKY, FULTY COUNTY DEPT. OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS: Good morning and thank you, chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you pull the mike in closer to you Dr. Katkowsky?

KATKOWSKY: Is that better?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's fine. Thank you.

KATKOWSKY: OK. I was just thanking you for the opportunity to appear before you today. Specifically lots of things that have been discussed both by the first panel session and just now by Mr. Speaker leave some question as to perhaps the timeline and what everybody remembers as to the timeline for what happened, what didn't happen, what might have been communicated.

Mr. Speaker was correct. He was referred to the Fulton County Health Department on April the 23rd because of a positive culture for TB. He was seen in our department on April the 25th. In our TB clinic. The physician that saw Mr. Speaker was also a CDC physician who was an expert in TB. He was not working as a representative of the CDC. He was working for the Department of Health and Wellness in Fulton County so there are a couple of parallel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was not a CDC employee or was he?

KATKOWSKY: He was a CC employee, but he was working at a local health department in a TB clinic. And I think perhaps that's where some of the question arises as to what did CDC know and when did they know it? I think the greater question is what did they know, when did they know it and from whom did they know it?

Yes, Mr. Speaker was put on the standard regimen of drugs. And with subsequent testing, yes, he was smear negative as Dr. Gerberding said. He remained culture positive. The local health department does not have the means to be able to do the kind of specialized tests to determine, number one resistance to the strain of TB. Number two, the degree of resistance to a strain of TB.

Our initial TB tests are conducted by the state public health laboratory. As Dr. Gerberding said, the CDC has the laboratory ability to test for sensitivity resistance and so on to the different standard anti-TB drugs.

This strain of TB proved to be resistant. In a meeting with Mr. Speaker, with his physicians and some family members that took place on May the 10th, he was informed officially that he had MDR or multi- drug resistant TB. That, in and of itself, from a health perspective is cause for concern.

The cause for concern is brought about because drug resistant tuberculosis to any degree is much more difficult to treat. The treatment itself takes longer. The recommendation was made, as Mr. Speaker says, to seek treatment in Denver, Colorado, at a specialty facility.

So a lot of these things are coming together, but the juxtaposition of them, I think, really requires further explanation.

Upon making his status known to him, the other piece of information that was transmitted was, no, you should not travel. The question that's been asked over and over again, was Mr. Speaker prohibited from traveling? Was he ordered not to travel? And the answer to that was no. The local health department does not have the authority to prohibit or order somebody not to travel. In Georgia, our role is to able to go to the courts to seek an order to compel either treatment, isolation or restriction on travel.

We had consulted with the Fulton County attorney's office and asked them what action might be available. And unfortunately, as you've heard before this morning, the way a lot of the laws are written is action can't be taken until a violation has occurred. In other words, we can't be proactive. I can't look at somebody and say, they might rob a bank. I have to wait until they rob the bank to then be able to take the necessary legal action.

Well, in this case, as Mr. Speaker clearly points out, he did not refuse treatment. He did not refuse to be tested. He had also not violated the medical directive to not travel. So we found ourselves in a catch-22 where the law provides for action to be taken after there's a violation, but not before in a preemptive way that would have allowed us to be able to prepare.

One of the questions that I know the committee has asked this morning was, what could have been done or would have been done differently? I think had the local health department been in a position where the laws would have allowed the department to be anticipatory rather than reactionary, and by that I mean, we could have, had the law allowed, issued a request to the courts, have an isolation order or have a restriction on travel order issued and then have an immediate or within 72 hours, a hearing for the patient to be able to come forward, present their information and then have the court decide whether or not that order needs to remain in effect. While balancing the patient's rights with the rights of the rest of the population.

One of the things that was of great concern, and as a public health official I must tell you, the thing that was a great concern was Mr. Speaker's health, his well-being, the treatment he would and could receive, as well as the health and well-being of the population.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Dr. Katkowsky, again, Mr. Speaker, I took my notes here that on May 10th, he said everyone was aware of his travel plans. He had not hidden them, that CDC was present, I assume in this person that you spoke about, this physician that is at your Fulton County health facility.

He was made aware of the MDR TB, but no one, he said, was wearing masks. He was told he was not contagious. He was not told to avoid people. You heard what Mr. Speaker said, so in that framework, seems to me the average person would say, well, OK, I have this thing, I'm not contagious and all these people around me know about my travel plans, but no one said that he shouldn't do this. He was told he was not contagious. Is that your recollection?

KATKOWSKY: No, sir. First of all, what is not in the meeting but the patient's chart indicates that he was told he was not highly contagious. As Dr. Gerberding pointed out earlier, somebody who is smear negative but culture positive, is still able to transmit tuberculosis and as a matter of fact, about 17 percent of all the cases that we see are transmitted by people who are smear negative.

The other piece of information is that, yes, we knew of his plans to travel. The plan that we knew of was for Mr. Speaker to travel outside the United States on May 14th. We then in this case, incorrectly, assumed that we had at least four days to be able to work up a plan, to be able to put plans in place, and that would have included referral to Denver, Colorado.

Yet what we found out was Mr. Speaker moved up his travel date, was not available, could not be reached, and the whole question of whether or not we could have compliance at that point and was it safe for him to travel, could not even be addressed because at that time he was out of the country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to get back to Mr. Speaker on this. He's still listening. Before I do, I'm going to Dr. Delare (ph), though. Dr. Delar -- Delare, I'm sorry. I mispronounced it. President and CEO of Global Health Council. Dr. Delare. Welcome to the committee. And please give us the benefit of your insight.

COLLINS: We have been listening to fascinating testimony here at the Senate Appropriations Committee on tuberculosis and the gentleman there in the upper right screen Andrew Speaker, I hesitate o it to say whether he had XDR, the severely drug resistant form of tuberculosis. Elizabeth Cohen joining me to talk more about this.

Let's talk for a moment about what we heard. To me, the bombshell, potential bombshell is that the CDC not only knew that he had this form of TB, also knew of his exact travel plans, however, you say that and then we just heard moments ago that he, Andrew Speaker, moved up his travel plans. And according to Fulton County, they did not know he would be leaving relatively immediately.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is going to take a tribunal to figure out the facts in this case. But the bombshell, as Heidi said that went off, was when Andrew Speaker told senators the CDC knew I was going to travel. They knew I had extensively drug resistant TB. I met with them, I talked with them, we shared plans. They knew I was going to travel. No one ever said to me you cannot travel. Now it was interesting at the point Mr. Speaker said this, obviously you would want to go to Julie Gerberding at the CDC and say, Dr. Gerberding, is that true, did you folks know about his travel plans way in advance? Unfortunately, she was not in the room. She had left, as I understand, to go to another hearing.

COLLINS: In fact, I believe we are showing that hearing she is attending right now. This is the House Homeland Security Department hearing talking about some of the issues of him being able to get in and out of the country.

COHEN: Now why they scheduled two hearings on one topic at the same time is another question but Julie Gerberding wasn't there to answer. We do remember that she said in a previous press conference last week, she was very definitive. She said we did not know about Mr. Speaker's travel plans or even his existence before he left Atlanta to go to Europe.

And I'm quoting her here, she said, "We were surprised the patient had left the country. If CDC had been aware he was going to leave the country, we may have been able to act."

So she was really quite definitive last week that they did not know about his travel plans.

COLLINS: And almost in direct confrontation, we heard Andrew Speaker say that was completely ridiculous because the CDC were the ones conducting the drug resistant test. This was end of April all the way through at least May 10th that we know of. She said, I think, they didn't know about it until May 16th?

COHEN: Until much later. I don't know the date but until much later. Right. Then just to keep this going here, keep the confusion going, but we'll try to make this as clear as possible. So you have Andrew Speaker saying the CDC knew exactly what I was going to do. You have Julie Gerberding saying last week we didn't know he had travel plans. And today there was maybe possibly a little bit of light shed on it where Fulton County official, Dr. Katkowsky, well, what happened is, when Mr. Speaker came in to our county public health clinic, he saw a doctor who is also an employee at the CDC but as he was seeing Mr. Speaker, he was not acting in his CDC capacity, he was acting in the capacity as a doctor for the county.

COLLINS: So many complexities. And you know what, here's the good news. Elizabeth Cohen, thanks for that. And tonight, on LARRY KING LIVE, we will be hearing from Andrew Speaker, his family and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That's CNN's LARRY KING LIVE tonight at 9:00 Eastern. 6:00 Pacific. We'll probably know even more by the time that interview happens right here on CNN.

HARRIS: THE CNN NEWSROOM continues. One hour from now.

COLLINS: YOUR WORLD TODAY is next with news happening across the globe and here at home. I'm Heidi Collins.

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