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Lou Dobbs This Week
Battle over Immigration 'Amnesty'; Bush/Congress Approval Ratings Reach Historic Lows
Aired June 24, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN HOST: Tonight the battle over illegal alien amnesty approaching a showdown in the Senate. Pro-amnesty senators determined to ram that legislation through the Congress and ignore the huge cost of the grand compromise. We'll have complete coverage for you.
And voters have had a belly-full of the conduct of President Bush and Congress. Approval ratings for the president and Congress have plummeted to historic lows. Three of the best and brightest political analysts in the nation join us, all of that, much more straight ahead, here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK. News, debate and opinion for Sunday, June 24th. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. The full Senate expected to resume debate on the so-called comprehensive immigration legislation over the next few days. Pro-amnesty senators appear hell-bent on ignoring the whether of the American people and ramming that legislation through the Senate.
The grand bargainers have the full support of the Bush administration of course and corporate interests and socioethnocentric special interest groups.
But opponents say they'll do everything possible to block amnesty. Joining me now, the people covering this dramatic and definitive week in politics upcoming, senior political analyst Bill Schneider, chief national correspondent John King, our Washington correspondent Lisa Sylvester.
Thank you all for being here. Bill Schneider, let's start with you. Going ahead now, it's a week later than what we've been led to believe, Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader would do.
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, that's right. I think that Senator Reid has run into a lot of road blocks. The word about Congress it's hard to make things happen. It's easy to stop things. And that's the problem that the Senate majority leader has.
DOBBS: Do you think John King, that this is a full court press, that we're going to really see the president pull out all the stops, some, if you will, if not under the table but certainly quiet favors extended to those Republicans to gain their votes?
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a huge question, Lou, as to whether the president has the political capital to do much of that. The president's chief allies in this legislation now, with the exception of the Republican leaders in Congress are in fact, the Democrats. And yes, the president will lobby individual Republican members, yes the administration will try to do what it can but you have a president who is hovering around 30 percent in the polls right now, most of that because of Iraq but certainly with the base of his own party, the only support the president can still rely on out there in middle America, if you will, conservatives, oppose him on the bill so the president is in a very conflicted, a very difficult political position, nonetheless yes, he will try to push this bill through.
But it is much more up to the leaders in Congress than it will be up to the president of the United States to get the 60 votes to leap over the procedural hurdles and get to final passage.
DOBBS: And Lisa, as John King suggests, the leadership of the Senate focusing on a very unusual, perhaps unprecedented use of the so-called clay pigeon tactic to drive this legislation. Do you think it will be successful? Is that what you're hearing?
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this clay pigeon is a very sneaky move, if you will. It is something, it is a tactic that's not used very often but it essentially allows the Senate majority leader Harry Reid to control the floor and really limits the ability of opponents to filibuster this bill.
But what it will all depend on, though, is whether or not the cloture vote will be successful. If they have a cloture vote then they will be able to move ahead with this clay pigeon tactic, Lou.
DOBBS: And we're going to have a relatively early test on that front. Bill, the idea that this grand bargain group who drafted this legislation, group originally of 12, now down to eight, is that an indicator of serious trouble?
SCHNEIDER: I think it is. I haven't heard of anyone really changing their votes to support this. A lot of members of Congress, a lot of senators are saying they're going to wait and see if any of their amendments pass, and they'll reconsider it so they claim they have an open mind on it. But I don't see any big forward momentum going on here.
DOBBS: And John, Senator Isakson, Senator Chambliss, they are saying point black, the original members of this grand bargain group say they are definitely going to oppose it. We heard from Senator Cornyn of Texas and Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, they're going to oppose it.
There's a significant erosion here on the Republican side for cloture.
KING: There certainly is, Lou and that is because of the grassroots opposition out in the country, there are institutional establishment supporters, you mentioned, the Chamber of Congress, other groups in Washington but out in the grassroots f you're from a red state like Georgia or a red state like Texas, what your voters back home, your most reliable voters back home are telling you oppose this bill or else.
A key person to watch here is the Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, he is up next year, he is from the state of Kentucky. You would not think that Mitch McConnell would be in any trouble after so many years in the United States Congress but the same conservative group that ran an ad against Trent Lott last week in Mississippi I am told is preparing to run an ad against Senator McConnell in Kentucky. When you have conservatives fighting conservatives you get an understanding of the tension within the Republican Party on this issue.
DOBBS: And on this issue, because one of the things I have complained about for some time is the fact that this amnesty legislation that the president, the Senate Democratic leaders including Senator Kennedy, Senator Reid, want to call it comprehensive, yet they have done no fact-finding no, public hearings no, diligent research into the economic fiscal and societal impact, and along comes a Congressional Budget Office, Lisa, with a very narrow look, saying that yes, it is at the margin, negative to the budget, over a course of 10 years, but that it will only curtail illegal immigration by 25 percent. How can these senators even stand there with straight faces and talk about passing such nonsense?
SYLVESTER: You hit the issue. And this is something that Senator Sessions and some other leading opponents to this bill pointed out. If the goal is to have border security and end illegal immigration, this bill is not the answer.
DOBBS: And not the answer, Bill, these senators are hearing apparently rather vigorous complaints from their constituents, whether they choose to ignore them or represent them.
SCHNEIDER: That's right, they're hearing a lot of anger from constituents really on both sides, but certainly from conservatives who are furious about it. This bill is a very elaborate contraption, I would call it, and has many moving parts. At least two of the provisions are likely to make the illegal immigration problem worse, the proposals for citizenship, the guest worker program, which is very unpopular, because Americans believe these are guests who will never leave and on the other hand, border security, which Americans like, employer sanctions which Americans like, but they are going to have to work. The whole thing has to work, and nobody believes it really will.
DOBBS: Well, this comes at the same time, John, as the executive branch has to say, no, we can't build a virtual fence. We've built 13 miles of the physical fence, that was supposed to be 854 miles. At the same time, that passport requirements for Americans returning to the United States have to be pushed back another year, and at the same time the passport applications now take four months to be processed. This administration looks as if it couldn't have timed its incompetence in administration worse.
KING: Two different issues but they certainly play into the same debate. On the passport front, what I think you are seeing, Lou, is a State Department of bureaucracy that has long been horrible, Democrat and Republican administration, now under pressure because of these new requirements and simply by all accounts, failing the test and failing it miserably.
On the issue of the -- on the fence, as you well know, the Homeland Security Department says it's going as fast as it can but there are so many critics because we know the president opposed the fence at the beginning and so the critics say you're dragging your feet because you don't want this to happen. The administration says no but that is certainly a loud and increasingly loud criticism.
DOBBS: Absolutely. John King, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester, thank you. Bill Schneider thank you very much for being here.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
Coming up next, the Bush administration aggressively defending its executive privilege and at the same time the vice president saying his office isn't part of the executive branch.
How about that? You've got to love Washington. We'll continue in just one moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: There's been precious little research for some reason on the part of the executive branch or Congress on the cost of this so- called amnesty program. And legislation.
The Congressional Budget Office, however, did come in at the request of Congress to take a look at part of what the cost might be. Peter Orszag is the director of the Congressional Budget Office, and he has come up with an estimate about how much his office believed amnesty will cost.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER ORSZAG, DIRECTOR, CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE: Eighteen billion dollars for the federal budget as a whole over the next 10 years, so for each person in the United States, that's about $5 a year. So pretty modest fiscal impact over the next decade.
DOBBS: Modest fiscal impact, and your study assesses what kind of efficiency in stopping illegal immigration? How -- it will just stop illegal immigration cold, right?
ORSZAG: No. The legislation does not shut down the black economy, and therefore it does not eliminate unauthorized immigrants. We estimate that it would reduce the flow of unauthorized immigrants by about a quarter relative to today.
DOBBS: So in other words, this grand bargain will basically be amnesty for anywhere between 12 million and 20 million illegal aliens. It will only curtail the flow of illegal aliens in this country by 25 percent. It will cost roughly $2 billion a year net to the treasury. And that's it. ORSZAG: Well, that's one way of looking at it. Obviously another way of looking at it is that there would be some reduction in the number of illegal immigrants in the United States ...
DOBBS: There would be what, I'm sorry?
ORSZAG: There would be some reduction in the number of illegal immigrants.
DOBBS: Sure, 25 percent reduction.
ORSZAG: And some increase in legal immigrants and by 15 or 20 years out, those two would basically balance each other, so the number of immigrants in the United States would be roughly what it would be in the absence of this legislation. More legal ones, somewhat fewer less illegal ones.
DOBBS: So, in other words, darn little impact in terms of the flow of immigration. It just would sort of invert at some point 12, 14 years out so that more people would be legalized because effectively illegal aliens would be legal, correct?
ORSZAG: That's one of the things going on. But you got the basic story right, which is it doesn't have in the long term any big effect on the number of immigrants in the United States.
DOBBS: So, so when we hear the president say, and we hear the Senate Democratic leadership say that this is going to stop illegal immigration, that it's going to not cost the American taxpayer anything, it's all just a big boffo, wonderful, Disneyland result, they're full of it?
ORSZAG: Well, I wouldn't use that kind of language.
DOBBS: Of course you wouldn't.
ORSZAG: What I would say is, again, the net fiscal impact is pretty small. It's probably not where you want to be paying most of the attention. And the impact on the number of immigrants in the United States isn't that big, either. It just changes the nature of those immigrants away from illegals and toward legal.
DOBBS: Right. And what it really does, it seems to me, at least, you could argue this, and I will not put it in terms that would be repugnant to you, it seems it really is amnesty for all the illegal -- all the illegal employers of illegal aliens. That's its principle, short-term impact.
ORSZAG: I'm going to let various different participants, including yourself, characterize it in different ways. I think our job is to just analyze what the impact is.
DOBBS: Let's talk about that analysis a little further as well. Did Congress, did anybody say to you, let's look at the fiscal impact of this, 30 years out? Because, as you know, 10 years is an interesting snapshot, but the real impact comes with Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, when those given legal status become citizens, their impact on Social Security, as you know, Robert Rector at the Heritage Foundation, putting the number at around $2.6 million just for the retiree benefits assuming that the number of illegal aliens is relatively limited.
ORSZAG: Well, Lou, as Toby Keith would say, that's not how it is.
DOBBS: All right. Did you say Toby Keith?
ORSZAG: The Office of the Chief Actuary -- I did say Toby Keith.
DOBBS: You rock on, Mr. Director.
ORSZAG: The Office of the Chief Actuary at Social Security has looked at the long-term impact on the Social Security solvency from this legislation and suggested that if anything it's a slight net improvement over the next 75 years. We've looked 20 years out and we also find small impacts. The reason is, yeah, you're paying more benefits, but you also are collecting more revenue from people.
DOBBS: Now, are you also making the same assumption as does Robert Rector, and this seems critical, do you maintain fidelity with the fact that 60 percent of the illegal immigrants, those who are not visa over-stayers, but those who have actually entered the country illegally, do not have high school educations?
ORSZAG: Yeah, we do assume that there is a -- as you note, there really is quite a difference. If you look, for example, even below high school drop-outs you look at eighth grade drop-outs and below, 36 percent of immigrants from Mexico and Central America have that level of education, only one percent of native-born workers. We do assume that there is a continued disparity in educational attainment of immigrants.
DOBBS: Do you -- can you think of some reason why there has not been an exhaustive study of the fiscal impact? You've done ...
ORSZAG: I think ours has been, is.
DOBBS: You believe it is.
ORSZAG: Yeah, I do.
DOBBS: You believe it is that exhaustive study. OK. Well, with that, and without quibbling over whether it is or it isn't, it is a valuable addition to the body of research, and we thank you for being with us here.
ORSZAG: Well, thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Peter Orszag of the Congressional Budget Office, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: Up next, the Senate's only independent senator, Bernie Sanders, joins me. We'll hear what he has to say about illegal immigration and amnesty.
And there's new evidence that our nation's borders remain far from secure. Like we needed more evidence.
And is it partisan politics or are the Bush administration's skirting the law? Constitutional scholar Jonathan Turley joins us. We'll find out whether or not the vice president's office is part of the executive branch. Interesting question, don't you think? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congress is warning the vice president that actions taken by his office to shut down a government oversight office may be illegal and a congressional report says White House aides skirted the law by deleting GOP e-mail.
Joining me now with his perspective, Jonathan Turley, professor of law at George Washington University.
First, professor, it turns out the vice president's view is that his office isn't in the executive branch of government, and allegations that he's not only refusing to cooperate with the National Archives Information Security Oversight Office, there's a mouthful, but he thinks maybe they ought to just get rid of that all together, it's become so inconvenient. What do you make of all?
JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: Well, it's an incredible development. First of all, because Cheney's office has been repeatedly the source of breaches of security, the most famous one being scooter Libby, his closest aide, who was convicted of releasing, actually convicted of lying about the release of information that was indeed classified, but what's really happening here is that Dick Cheney is saying that, for some purposes, he's a member of the executive branch, and for some purposes a member of the legislative branch, and only he seems to know when one applies or the other.
DOBBS: I suppose the Senate president pro tem, he could give away executive privilege because he's actually a member of the legislative branch. Do you seem moving to that extreme a position?
TURLEY: Well, Lou, this is particularly amazing from Dick Cheney. He has been in and out of court claiming executive privilege over everything he does and on those moments, he is thoroughly an executive branch official. But this argument, frankly, I view is rather fallacious and frivolous.
DOBBS: How do we resolve it?
TURLEY: It may have to go to the courts but I doubt seriously the Justice Department will want to litigate this. I think it's a silly claim. His office is created under Article II of the Constitution. It is an executive branch office.
DOBBS: Let's move to another issue that is immensely controversial, also one which has critics pointing directly at this administration, and decrying what they see is a constitutional violation, that is the warrantless wiretap program.
Subpoenas now being sent by the Senate Judiciary Committee, seeking the underlying documents for the warrantless wiretap program. How do you see this resolving?
TURLEY: Well, as you know, Lou, the Congress is now proceeding on multiple fronts with subpoenas in the U.S. attorney scandal and now here in the e-mail controversy, those all may indeed end up in court.
The domestic surveillance program is really the sleeper constitutional issue of this administration. I testified at the first hearing held on that issue, and I view that program as being rather facially unlawful, and in fact, what the president ordered is defined under federal law in my view and the view of many others as a crime, that he ordered a federal crime to be committed.
That makes these legal documents very important to see whether other people in the administration raised that alarm. So I think you're heading towards a very significant crisis, if the president refuses these issues. It's a crisis politically. Constitutionally, I think it's not as much of a crisis because Congress clearly has a right to much of this information.
DOBBS: And that would be resolved, of course, in a confrontation on the constitutional grounds in court.
TURLEY: That's right. That's the problem, by the way, because he could be well on his way back to Texas before this thing ever gets to a final judgment.
DOBBS: Right. Professor Jonathan Turley, thank you for being with us.
TURLEY: Thanks a lot, Lou.
DOBBS: Up next, Senator Hillary Clinton taking inspiration from "The Sopranos" to boost her presidential campaign. We'll have the story and the Senator battle over illegal alien amnesty entering a decisive phase.
One of the lawmakers at the center of the battle, Senator Bernie Sanders joins us and new evidence of the gaping holes in security along our border with Mexico, exclusive video that, and a great deal more straight ahead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: There is breaking news in the story of a pregnant woman who has been found in the area around Ohio, and the information that CNN has learned is that there has now been a second arrest. We told you yesterday of course about the arrest of Bobby Cutts, who is said to be the father of her unborn child, and also the father of her two-year-old, charged with two counts of murder, because she was nine months pregnant. Now we're hearing there has been another arrest, Myisha Ferrell has been arrested, and is in custody in the Stark County Sheriff's Office. She is being charged with obstruction of justice.
Once again, Myisha Ferrell, charged with obstruction of justice, related to the death of Jessie Davis in this case.
Now, as we get more information we're going to be sharing it with you. But we can tell you at this point there were reports yesterday, as you heard first, right here on CNN that someone may have assisted Bobby Cutts in moving the body of Jessie Davis. At this point, we are not able to report that there is a linkage between that allegation and these new charges that we are just now learning about.
Certainly we are going to be looking into it. We have reporters on the scene, and will bring you the very latest on this development right here at 7:00 p.m. from theCNN NEWSROOM. I'm Rick Sanchez. More news as we get it.
DOBBS: The Bush administration claims it's improving security along our border with Mexico. But there is new contrary evidence of gaping holes in that border, and rising concern about corruption. Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Last July, we showed you this video of illegal aliens crossing the U.S./Mexico border through a gap in the fence. Here's the same location east of San Diego, nearly a year later, a larger group crossing seemingly at will. U.S. Evolutions, a private border surveillance group, shot this footage Saturday during a Border Patrol shift change. Lookouts on the Mexican side as this photograph shows watch and wait for the Border Patrol to leave. It's a common tactic.
However, there are newer potentially deadly threats like fire.
RUSS BABIAK, ARIZONA FISH AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT: We believe it was started by some illegal immigrant activity, either roaring (ph) fires or some kind of signal fire or even a diversionary fire.
WIAN: Illegal alien smugglers are now setting fires to distract the Border Patrol. Others use fire to attack agents.
RICHARD DEWITT, U.S. BORDER PATROL: Fire bombs, Molotov cocktail. Amongst other things. These type of tactics endanger the public.
WIAN: Tactics the Department of Homeland Security says are the result of improved border security because of the deployment of the National Guard and more Border Patrol manpower. The Border Patrol is hiring 6,000 agents, raising concerns about the quality of the new force. Former agent Michael Gonzalez this week was sentenced to seven and a half years in prison. He was caught on camera stealing a bundle of marijuana from a suspect's pickup and stashing it in his Border Patrol vehicle.
DEWITT: Any time an agent crosses over, it reflects negatively upon all of us.
WIAN: Last week, Homeland Security's Office of Inspector General found 282 customs and border protection employees on the southwest border have been investigated for corruption since 2004.
As for these illegal aliens crossing through that gap in the fence, most were caught by the Border Patrol after a two-hour helicopter search. U.S. Evolution says similar crossings occur regularly and no one is caught, such as this group entering at 5:00 a.m.
WIAN (on camera): The Border Patrol would not comment on why that fence gap remains but the main culprit appears to be rocky terrain. Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: New concerns tonight that employers may exploit amnesty legislation to import even more chief cheap foreign labor. The Senate is considering expanding the number of guest worker slots. But critics say American workers will be the ones paying the price.
Christine Romans has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEO)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice-over): There are a half-dozen guest worker programs meant to fill U.S. labor shortages with foreign labor.
In this grainy seminar video posted on the file sharing site, YouTube, a Pittsburgh law firm on how to use loopholes to ensure foreign workers can get the jobs instead of Americans.
LAWRENCE LEBOWITZ, VICE PRESIDENT MARKETING, COHEN AND GRIGSBY: And our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker.
ROMANS: The Programmers Guild, a high-tech worker advocacy group, spliced together several minutes of footage, including an apparent how-to for meeting minimum requirements for advertising a job.
LEBOWITZ: So, certainly, we are not going to try to find the place where the applicants are going to be the most numerous. We're going to try to find a place where, again, we're complying with the law, and hoping and likely not to find qualified and interested worker applicants. ROMANS: The seminar has since been removed. After repeated calls and e-mails, a spokeswoman for the law firm would only say the event was to educate their clients, and would not confirm the substance of the seminar.
It all comes as the debate over guest worker programs intensifies.
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY, R-IOWA: Quite frankly, we have evidence that a lot of companies are using H1B skilled worker program for legal immigrants, at the very same time that they could be hiring Americans.
ROMANS: Senator Grassley has long been concerned about H1B visa abuse. And recent congressional testimony highlighted humanitarian concerns in the H2A and H2B programs.
RON HIRA, ROCHESTER INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY: You try to control one set of misuse in one category, and employers will just adapt and go to another visa category and start to misuse those.
ROMANS: He says employers are gaming the system. But advocates of guest worker programs say they are essential for the economy, especially in agriculture, where more legal slots are needed.
JAMES HOLT, AGRICULTURAL ECONOMIST: We're talking about bringing the workers that are coming in now illegally into the United States in a legal, controlled program. And I think anybody and everybody would be in favor of that.
ROMANS: Fraud and abuse can be stopped, he says, if Congress allocates more resources and personnel.
(END VIDEO)
ROMANS (on camera): Now, the law firm, Cohen and Grigsby, issued a statement saying its legal advice has been "commandeered and misused." But they say they stand by the substance of that recent immigration update seminar, and they regret the choice of words that was used in a very small part of that overall seminar.
But Senator Charles Grassley, Congressman Lamar Smith, they're not pleased or amused with this. They have sent a letter asking for some rationale from the law firm and also the Department of Labor, asking just what's being done to make sure that running right (ph) through these loopholes isn't allowed.
DOBBS: Well, isn't allowed - I mean, that's straightforward legal advice on how to proceed and the hell with the American worker.
ROMANS: That's right. But it's not the spirit of the law, according to ...
DOBBS: Well, we don't want to talk about the spirit of these son of a - whatever they are.
ROMANS: Guns, guns. DOBBS: Exactly.
Thanks very much, Christine Romans.
Next week, the full Senate resumes debate on amnesty. Many senators oppose the legislation. Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont says that bill should be defeated outright.
(BEGIN VIDEO)
SEN. BERNARD SANDERS, I-VERMONT: I hope very much that, in its present form, it does not survive. I think it needs a lot more work on it, especially looking at the economic implications of these guest worker programs.
DOBBS: You know, as we look at these numbers, they're absolutely startling. President Bush - you've looked at these numbers, just as I have.
I mean, the president is doing horribly. Only Nixon, on the verge of impeachment, had a lower approval rating than George W. Bush, who now has the lowest approval ratings of his presidency.
But Congress - 14 percent approval in the Gallup Poll - the lowest in just about 35 years.
Is there any sense amongst your colleagues in the Senate and there in Washington, that it is time for people to begin to represent their constituents, rather than these special interests, corporate interests?
SANDERS: Well, you've got it. And that's exactly the situation. And of course there is concern on at least some of our parts.
The reality is, as I think a growing number of Americans understand, is that what happens in Congress is, to a very significant degree, dictated by big money interests. And these are based - their whole ideology is based on greed.
They are selling out American workers. And, in fact, they're selling out our entire country. And that is a major struggle that we have got to engage in, to take back our country from these very powerful and wealthy special interests.
DOBBS: These special interests - and you and I have talked about this - it is now so blatant, so overt, that only those who would refuse to see could deny that both that Democratic and Republican Parties are owned lock, stock and barrel by corporate America and special interests, including, in the amnesty legislation, socioethnic- centric interest groups, who really have very little regard for the traditions of this country, the values of this country or the constituents.
It is seemingly impossible to awaken our elected officials in Washington to their moral responsibility. There are wonderful people, including yourself - I don't mean to suggest that everyone is in this situation, only the majority, unfortunately, in the Senate and the House.
Is there any hope that we can change that?
SANDERS: Of course there is hope that we can change it. And I think there are a growing number of Americans who understand that there is something wrong when the middle class in this country continues to shrink, despite a huge increase in worker productivity.
Poverty continues to increase. Since Bush has been president, five million more Americans have slipped into poverty, six million Americans more have lost their health insurance. And the gap between the rich and everybody else is growing wider.
So, when President Bush tells you how great the economy is doing, what he is really saying is that the CEOs of large multinationals are doing very, very well. He's kind of ignoring the economic reality of everybody else.
And that gets us to the immigration issue. If poverty is increasing, and if wages are going down, I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers, who will work for lower wages than American workers, and drive wages down even lower than they are right now.
DOBBS: And as we know, the principal industries which hire the bulk of illegal aliens - that is, construction and landscaping ...
SANDERS: Lou, I just heard something.
DOBBS: ... leisure and hospitality - those are all industries in which wages are declining.
SANDERS: Well ...
DOBBS: I don't hear that discussed on the Senate floor by the proponents of this amnesty legislation.
SANDERS: That's right. They have no good response.
I just read something today that a lot of people coming into this country are coming in as lifeguards. I guess we can't find - that's right - we can't find American workers to work as lifeguards.
And the H1B program has teachers - elementary school teachers. Well, you know.
DOBBS: And that H1B program, we get to watch Senator Ted Kennedy sit there with the sole witness being one Bill Gates, the world's richest man, telling him he wanted unlimited H1B visas.
SANDERS: Right.
DOBBS: Obviously, uninformed as to the fact that seven out of 10 visas under the H1B program go to Indian corporations that are outsourcing those positions to American corporations in this country, and that four out of five of those jobs that are supposed to be high- skilled jobs are actually category one jobs ...
SANDERS: That's right.
DOBBS: ... which is low skilled.
SANDERS: Well, you raise a good point, and that this whole immigration guest worker concept is the other side of the trade issue.
On one hand you have large multinationals trying to shut down plants in America, move to China. And on the other hand, you have the service industry bringing in low-wage workers from abroad.
The result is the same. The middle class gets shrunken and wages go down.
DOBBS: Senator Bernie Sanders, we thank you for being with us, as always.
SANDERS: My pleasure.
(END VIDEO)
DOBBS: Coming up, Senator Claire McCaskill joins us. We'll be talking about amnesty and oversight in Iraq.
Senator Hillary Clinton tries to add a bit of humor to her presidential campaign. By golly, she not only tried, she succeeded.
We'll be joined by three of the country's best political analysts to tell us what they think is going on in this presidential campaign, what happened to Congress with an all-time low approval rating and this president, with just about an all-time low approval rating.
Some kind of history lesson this week. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: One of the leading critics of the Senate's grand compromise on immigration is Senator Claire McCaskill. The Democratic senator has also just returned from Iraq, carrying out oversight over contracts being set in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO)
SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL, D-MISSOURI: The focus of my trip, Lou, was oversight on the contracting. I don't know if most Americans are aware, but we have over 160,000 troops in Iraq, but over 120,000 contractors.
We have privatized this effort like never before in our history. And unfortunately, we have wasted billions of dollars in the process. I'm a former auditor, so I went over to first hand look the folks in the eye and say, hey, we've got to tighten this up, we've got to oversee these contracts and we've got to take the incentives out of these contracts, that are allowing these contractors to bilk the American taxpayer.
DOBBS: Well, those contracts, in many instances, if not most - correct me, if I'm wrong - are, in fact, no-bid contracts, are they not?
MCCASKILL: Many of them were non-competitive. And in some ways, even worse, they were what's called "cost-plus" contracts, which means, the contractor is rewarded if they spend more money. The more they spend, the more they make, instead of a competitive, fixed price.
We are beginning to transition the contracts to fixed price, and it's going to take some folks in Congress continuing to pay attention to this, because this is not what the Department of Defense does well.
DOBBS: Senator, if I may, let's - are you going to - are there going to be hearings on the way in which this has been handled and to lay down a foundation for a more efficient future?
MCCASKILL: Absolutely. And I am hoping to add some amendments to the defense authorization bill when it hits the floor in a few weeks, to actually do some things in the law to provide some accountability on this privatization issue.
DOBBS: Senator, if I may, I'd like to turn to the grand compromise, that closure vote, the procedural foundation for moving the so-called "grand compromise" ahead.
Are you at this point going to support closure, or vote against it?
MCCASKILL: I'll vote against it. I don't - I think that we are being premature with this legislation in many ways.
As you know, my position on this has been, we've got to shut down the magnet, which are the jobs that these people are coming across the border for. And until we get serious about that in this country, it's not going to make any difference what laws we pass.
DOBBS: And has Senator Reid been receptive at all to your thinking on that? Because, you know, I think you're four-square with reality on that.
MCCASKILL: Well, I think what you've got is, you've got Senator Reid trying to get things across the goal line in terms of accomplishing things. I think he feels some urgency about that. And I think he's trying to please a lot of folks with this bill.
DOBBS: So there's - so, it's really - I mean, it's almost - it's hard for many of us to think there's any genuine aspect to the leadership on this issue, because these people really believe - whether it's Senator Reid, Senator Kennedy, Senator Kyl, Senator McCain - that a bad bill is better than no bill. That idea is permeating that group of people, is it not?
MCCASKILL: Well, and I think, for some of that coalition, there's a great deal of business pressure here. As I said, you know, as a former prosecutor and a former auditor, it's pretty simple. You enforce the law and you follow the money.
And if you follow the money on this deal, it's very clear that there are a lot of business interests in this country that want to drive - want to pad profits by driving down labor costs, which, of course, illegal immigration is a big, huge help on.
DOBBS: Senator Claire McCaskill, we thank you for being with us.
MCCASKILL: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Appreciate it.
MCCASKILL: Thank you.
(END VIDEO)
DOBBS: Up next, three of the best political analysts join me to discuss the war in Iraq, the president's poll ratings, the Congress' poll ratings - and, oh, yes, that grand amnesty plan.
And later, the Clintons managing to inject controversy and fun into a simple task. Was it a hit? We'll tell you.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, joining me now, three of the best and brightest political analysts: Democratic strategist, Hank Sheinkopf; Errol Louis, "New York Daily" news columnist; Diana West, "Washington Times" columnist.
Diana, let me start with you.
This president is sitting at the lowest approval rating of his presidency. This Congress is sitting at the lowest approval rating in 35 years, since anyone started paying attention to how the public regarded Congress.
All is well with America?
DIANA WEST, COLUMNIST, "WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, in a way, I would say yes. I have to say that the numbers almost made me happy, because I suddenly felt I was no longer out of step with my nation.
I feel the same way. I can't endorse it more.
DOBBS: So, you feel validated.
WEST: Yes.
DOBBS: Errol, how about you?
ERROL LOUIS, NEWS COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK DAILY": Well, one thing this suggests is that, if there's a mud fight between the president and Congress - and I think we can rely on that happening - Congress will have to blink first, because the Democrats want to actually keep power.
They want to pick up seats and not lose seats. Whereas, Bush, in a way, can only play for the history books.
WEST: Well, and they're also one point lower, right?
DOBBS: One whole point lower, I think is the way the president would put it.
Hank, what do you think?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The Democrats are very lucky people, in that George Bush is in the White House. And the role of George Bush will go right through the 2008 elections.
DOBBS: Well, it is - it's really only been five months since the Democrats have been in charge of this Congress. Yet they've managed to really tick off the public.
SHEINKOPF: Oh, there's no question about this. We know from - there's certainly enough research on people being more rational in their public opinion behavior, and they tend to want something to happen.
What happened here is, they voted for change and they don't feel they got very much of that.
DOBBS: Yes. And the change that they're looking for - obviously, in the direction of the war in Iraq - looking for more security in their feelings about this economy.
But it was interesting to me in the Newsweek poll, the president, 71 percent of those surveyed object to his handling of the war. The next worst performance by this president, 63 percent disapproving of his handling of the immigration issue.
What does it mean, Errol?
LOUIS: I think what it means, among other things, is that the Democrats - if you live by the polls, you're going to get hurt by the polls, too. They looked over their shoulder every step of the way in the election that brought them into the majority.
But I think what they're really seeing now is that, being good enough to win is not the same as being good enough to govern. And on issues like immigration - tough stuff.
I mean, you can slogan your way into office, but we're at a point where, on issues like immigration, on the war, it's going to take way more than slogans. DOBBS: Well, if this president is receiving that kind of opposition on the issue of this amnesty, why is the man persisting with the support, apparently, of enough Republicans in the Senate to at least make it close this time?
SHEINKOPF: The problem here is that he dances to a very different drummer than the rest of us do. It's that simple. He did that in the war.
He doesn't listen to public opinion. He presumes he has greater moral insight into what's occurring. He feels the same way about immigration, no matter what's said to him.
He can't rally his own party. There's something wrong here.
DOBBS: I think that as a nation we've all sort of - and I don't mean this in any - well, I guess it is a pejorative - but I think for the most part, George W. Bush has been dismissed by most of the public, whether you're Republican or Democrat or Independent, or whatever.
WEST: That's what the polls seem to show.
DOBBS: But - yes, but what I don't understand is why the senators of his own party, whatever percentage would possibly align themselves with him and follow him over a cliff on this idiotic legislation.
WEST: I have no answer for that. I agree.
I think it's mystifying, especially senators like Trent Lott, or some of these other southern senators. I cannot fathom what's going on, unless there is some kind of backroom promises or corporate interests that are inspiring them.
DOBBS: You don't suppose ...
LOUIS: Well, I mean ...
DOBBS: You don't suppose.
LOUIS: You've also got to look at ...
WEST: Why do you suppose?
LOUIS: You've also got to look at the calendar, Lou. I mean, not every Republican senator is up in 2008. So, there are some who can kind of hide and maybe take the temperature, and maybe see if and when they're going to make a real break with ...
DOBBS: And tell their constituents to go to hell.
WEST: Yes, that's what they're saying.
LOUIS: Well, to tell the constituents that change is coming, and it may come in 2012. DOBBS: Oh, man. It's coming in 2012.
I mean, if we look at what is happening here, I don't know what people - you know, when we run polls on our broadcast here, people identify - the last poll we did, or this audience - do you identify yourself as Republican, Democrat or Independent, over 70 percent identify themselves as Independents.
Now, the national average is over 40 percent now. But, I mean, that's overwhelming.
What is this? Do you think this has some implications for 2008?
SHEINKOPF: Absolutely. You know, the argument that some political scientists have made that the parties are really in good shape seems to me to be completely out of whack.
Performance is one thing. How people feel is something else. And maybe they haven't been given an opportunity yet to perform truly on their independent leanings.
That's why Mike Bloomberg's movement from Republican to Independent ...
DOBBS: To come into the light. Come into the light and join us as an Independent.
SHEINKOPF: ... is a very serious, serious thing. Whether he runs for president or not, it tells you that something is going on in the political environment.
DOBBS: Diana West, the Republicans - do they have a chance in the world? I mean, they're following this president, who has been, as I think we all agree, has been basically dismissed by the public. And you cannot even imagine why.
WEST: Well, I think that there is a strong rebellion in the Republican ranks against the president. I think that's the only place the Republican Party has hope in terms of the Congress and the presidency.
Everybody who wants to succeed must be developing their ideas and notions in opposition to the president at this point to be a true conservative.
DOBBS: A true conservative. And the two names, the two people creating the greatest electricity - and Hank just mentioned one of them, Errol - Michael Bloomberg and Fred Thompson, and they're not even in the race yet.
LOUIS: Well, that's right. In fact, the bloom may come off the rose if they do - if and when they do get into the race. But ...
DOBBS: That "bloom off the rose" was not a pun, was it?
(LAUGHTER) LOUIS: Oh, no. Oh, no. I would never make fun of the mayor of my town.
But I'll tell you. There really is a level of economic populism that's kind of surging underneath all of these polls.
DOBBS: Yea!
LOUIS: There's also a concern, I think, for the conflict, for the war in Iraq, and a real deep sense that the guys in Washington don't have solutions.
WEST: Well, I think what people are realizing is that, no matter what happens in Iraq, nothing that the president has put forward does anything to take care of Iran and Syria, which are the far greater threats to the region and to our security.
SHEINKOPF: Well, Rudy Giuliani is onto something. Stand up, say something, make it work.
And here I'll say it again. You can't beat nobody with nobody.
Fred Thompson's got 60 days to prove it. If not, Rudy Giuliani is going to look more better than ever.
DOBBS: More better. One of my favorite expressions.
SHEINKOPF: And he's saying more better than ever, Lou.
DOBBS: And my kids give me grief when I say "more better," but I like more better, and I'm with you all the way.
Something more better better happen here, and soon, for all our sakes.
Diana, thank you very much. Errol, thank you very much. Hank, appreciate it.
Coming up next, Senator Hillary Clinton takes a creative approach to finding a campaign song and ends up with a controversy and, I think, a critical creative success.
We'll have the story for you. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Hillary Clinton debuting a "Sopranos"-inspired campaign video, a shot-by-shot spoof of the HBO program's final scene, and an introduction to her new and controversial campaign song selection.
Jeanne Moos has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEO)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK (voice- over): Move over, Carmela and Tony. Meet Bill and Hillary Soprano.
Talk about a hit. The Clintons' "Sopranos" spoof made for almost the same front page in rival tabloids. The "Daily News" rated it at four bullet holes.
The Clinton spoof almost got better reviews than the "Sopranos" finale.
Haven't we seen this guy somewhere? He's the one giving Bill and Hillary the evil eye.
MOOS (on camera): It wasn't like a paying kind of gig.
VINCENT CURATOLA, ACTOR: No, absolutely not, no.
MOOS: It was out of the goodness of your heart.
CURATOLA: I'm 100,000 a day. I don't do the ...
MOOS (voice-over): Johnny "Sack" - real name, Vincent Curatola - was a New York mob boss on "The Sopranos." He died on "The Sopranos," but survived the Clintons' spoof - a spoof designed to announce the winner of Hillary's campaign song contest.
MOOS (on camera): Just as rabid fans analyzed every frame of "The Sopranos" finale, we decided to analyze every line of the Clinton spoof.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What looks good tonight?
TONY SOPRANO: I don't know.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Does anything look good?
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have some great choices.
HILLARY CLINTON: I ordered for the table.
BILL CLINTON: No onion rings?
MOOS: And then there were the parallel parallel parking scenes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) come in separately (ph).
HILLARY CLINTON: Where's Chelsea?
BILL CLINTON: Parallel parking.
MOOS (voice-over): They shot the spoof with the diner still open for business.
CURATOLA: I want to say it was about three takes each angle. They were really prepared. Hillary and Bill knew they were acting, and they came in actor-ready. MOOS: As for the ending, the announcement of the winning campaign song ...
HILLARY CLINTON: Ready?
MOOS: You had to go to Hillary's Web site to hear.
Celine Dion's "You and I," got the most votes, though many online comments were cruel.
"Who can listen to Celine Dion for 500 days? Kill me. Kill me now."
But the real killer - the song was originally performed by Canadian Celine Dion for Air Canada.
One poster commented, "Leave it to Hillary to outsource even her own theme song."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, America, get up here.
MOOS: If Hillary wants to become president, she'd better not accidentally play the French version of "You and I."
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEO)
DOBBS: Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. Have a great week.
Good night from New York.
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