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CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Harry Potter!; Brian Wells Case

Aired July 11, 2007 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, secrets of being Harry Potter revealed by Harry himself, Daniel Radcliffe.
Here the same night that the new Harry Potter movie opens around the word

What's it like to grow up playing a character who's an icon to millions, maybe billions?

What was Harry's first big screen kiss really like?

Daniel Radcliffe covers it all and takes your calls.

And then, Nicole Richie caught a break today, but could she end up going to jail for driving under the influence?

And what about those rumors that she's pregnant?

We've got the latest with TV's Judge Hatchet, TMZ's Harvey Levin and more.

Plus, was he just an innocent hostage with a ticking bomb around his neck or a coconspirator in a bank robbery?

The Feds say he was in on the bizarre plot that killed him. His furious family says no way.

And we'll remember Lady Bird Johnson, the former first lady who passed away hours ago, with former First Lady Barbara Bush.

It's all next on "LARRY

KING LIVE".

We begin with Daniel Radcliffe, who is sensational. I saw the movie the other day. In the new film Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix". It opens worldwide today.

And in the interest of fairness and telling you all information, "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" is from Warner Brothers and Warner Brothers Pictures, like our own CNN, is part of Time Warner, Incorporated.

Does it get old hat, Daniel?

Are you so used to playing this it becomes -- you do it right after the wall? DANIEL RADCLIFFE, ACTOR: Not really. I mean I think doing each film presents its own very unique challenges. so it's sort of like playing a different part every time you come back to do it. Certainly for the fifth film, certainly, it was some of the hardest stuff I'd had to do to date so -- but, you know, equally that's the thing that keeps it fresh and keeps it really enjoyable now.

KING: When you see the final -- final cut, when you see it all done and all the special effects, does it surprise you?

RADCLIFFE: It does. I mean there's one sequence in this film which is probably my favorite, which is the -- or one of my favorites -- which is the seek -- the fight between Dumbledore and Voldemort right near at the end of the movie, which is, I think, just amazing. and even though I was there on the day when we were filming it, when I saw all the visual effects put in place, I just thought it, you know, it was totally incredible. because I've got no concept of how any of that works. and so it was -- to see it finally was just amazing.

KING: Do you wear glasses?

RADCLIFFE: No, not in real life, which has come as a disappointment to a great many people who have met me.

KING: (LAUGHTER).

How do they find you for this?

RADCLIFFE: It was -- I don't know. It was one of those things where it's partly sort of luck, in a way, and just good fortune. I mean, it started off that Chris Columbus, who directed the first two movies, had wanted to audition me for the film. but at that time it was a -- it was to sign on for, I think, all of the films and they were all to be done in Los Angeles. and my mom and dad were just like well, we don't really want that to happen, because it would be too big a disruption of his life.

And but then it got changed to just two films and signing, and filming in England. and so then we started to think, OK, well maybe, you know, I could audition for this. and I sort went from there, really.

I met David Heyman. We talked about wrestling over milkshakes, I believe. and that's where it's all sort of gone from.

KING: How -- were you a child actor?

RADCLIFFE: Not -- I mean I hadn't really -- obviously, I start -- I suppose yes is the simple answer. I mean, I started when I was nine. I did my first thing, "David Copperfield." and then after that I -- but it wasn't really until the third Harry Potter film that I thought this is -- this is definitely something I'd love to do, you know, in the long-term, because before that I was just a kid having fun on a film set and it was, you know, having the time of my life, but not really taking it as seriously as I do now, obviously.

KING: Were you a fan of the books?

RADCLIFFE: I was. I mean I had only read the first two and -- but obviously I got the part and I thought, well, I've got to catch up on these. and so, you know, I read all of them that had been released by that stage, which was, I think, was the first four. and, yes. I mean, obviously, you know, now I sort of love them as much as everybody else does. I mean I'm just awaiting the arrival the seventh as equally as rest of the world.

KING: Yes. That will be July 21st. It's "Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows."

Will that be a movie?

RADCLIFFE: Oh, I certainly hope so. I'm counting on it.

KING: (LAUGHTER).

We have an e-mail question for you from Bethany in Knoxville, Tennessee.

RADCLIFFE: OK.

KING: "Do you feel you were somehow destined to play Harry? Has the role lost any excitement by playing it so long?"

RADCLIFFE: It really hasn't. I mean things like working with a new director for almost every film to date is -- is one of the many things that keeps it fresh. and also, you know, by -- just by challenging yourself continually, you can seep yourself motivated. because, you know, I've played Harry for seven years now in five movies, but that doesn't mean I've, you know, done all I can in terms of acting, you know? I've got -- there's still a long way to go in it and develop. and so, hopefully, you'll see more of that over the next two films.

KING: You'll be 18 on July 23rd.

Happy birthday, by the way.

RADCLIFFE: Thank you very much.

KING: Do you fear that this, Daniel, will typecast you and that people might say he's a good actor, but we won't use him because everyone thinks he's Potter?

RADCLIFFE: I mean, that's a good question. I mean I -- I personally don't think they will. I mean they -- they haven't so far and that's why all the films are still going on. You know, I did -- I did "Equus" earlier in the year and I've done an independent Australian movie called "December Boys," which comes out later this year. and I'm, you know, in about a month's time, I'm filming a TV movie in England about Rudyard Kipling and his son called "My Boy Jack."

So, so far, you know, people seem to not really mind the fact that I'm associated with Harry Potter and seem to be casting me for my acting rather than anything else. So hopefully that's just going to continue after the films are over.

KING: There are some who suggest you may be a little too old for the part now.

How do you react?

RADCLIFFE: I don't -- I mean, to be honest, you know, when Heath Ledger did "Brokeback Mountain," the character he plays starts off younger than him and ends up much older. So, you know, actors play younger and older than their age all the time. so I don't think it should make too much of a difference.

KING: Before we go to break with Daniel Radcliffe, the star of "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix", we have our roving reporter Tanika Ray of the TV show "Extra". She's on the front lines, Daniel, with fans at the Mann Village Theater here in Los Angeles.

What do you have in store for us tonight -- Tanika?

TANIKA RAY, "EXTRA" CORRESPONDENT: I can't hear you guys.

How excited are you?

(LAUGHTER).

RAY: These folks have been in line for hours and they're super psyched to see Harry Potter.

Number five, is it going to be hot?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wake up, wake up.

RAY: You know, Daniel Radcliffe can see you right now. Look at that.

Say, hi, Daniel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Daniel.

RADCLIFFE: Hello, sir.

RAY: You've got the glasses and everything, Daniel.

You like?

RADCLIFFE: Yes.

I like your shirt, sir.

RAY: He says he likes your specs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does he? RAY: Yes, he likes your specs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're transition lenses.

RAY: Lenses, same thing. $12 million, Daniel. You are nice going.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I ask something?

RAY: You want to ask him something?

I don't know if Larry will allow that.

Larry?

KING: Yes, go ahead.

RADCLIFFE: He said go ahead.

What do you want to know?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what's the $12 million?

Is that when he made?

RAY: No, no, $12 million -- they made that overnight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's fantastic.

RAY: That's like the record right now, did you know that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

RAY: That's pretty cool, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does he get to keep the wand?

RAY: Do you get to keep the wand, Daniel?

RADCLIFFE: I, unfortunately, do not get to keep the wand, though I did get to keep a fantastic sword from the second movie.

RAY: OK, no wand, but he --

KING: We'll be right back with all of this --

RAY: -- but he gets to keep the sword.

KING: Tanika -- Tanika, we'll check back with Tanika Ray.

We'll be back with Daniel Radcliffe on this worldwide opening. As she reported, $12 million overnight. They're on the way to a record.

Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM HARRY POTTER AND THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX", COURTESY WARNER BROTHERS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Discipline your mind.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're in this together.

RADCLIFFE: If Voldemort is building up an army, then I want to fight.

Look at me!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM HARRY POTTER AND THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX", COURTESY WARNER BROTHERS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Used properly, the property of oplimancy is, it will help shield you from access or influence. In these lessons, I will attempt to penetrate your mind. You will attempt to resist. Prepare yourself.

Gentlemen --

Concentrate, Potter.

Focus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That's the newest Harry Potter.

We're back with more from Daniel Radcliffe, also known as Harry Potter.

By the way, he's the topic of our quick vote at cnn.com/larryking.

The question is do you think Harry Potter will survive?

You can cast your vote and see how your opinion stacks up against everybody else's.

Right now, let's go to the King cam on the streets of Hollywood for some questions for Daniel direct from his fans.

Watch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know how it feels to be one of the most popular teen actors in the world probably.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How have people treated you differently since you've been Harry Potter?

KING: Daniel? RADCLIFFE: You know, in regards to the second question, I don't think people have treated me too differently in terms of, you know, my immediate friends and, obviously, my family. It's -- it's just the same as it's always been. I'm particularly lucky, actually, to have people around me who will always be brutally honest with me. I think that's sometimes where other people can go wrong, is that they have people around them who won't tell them the truth. and so they can't remain as grounded as, perhaps, they should.

But, yes, I've been very lucky in that respect.

And in regards to doing the big, well, almost -- the popular teen actor's question, that was, well, naturally it feels great, you know?

I'm in a very, very, very lucky position.

KING: We have a rather blunt and flattering e-mail from Courtney in Henrietta, Oklahoma: "Do you have a girlfriend,", she asks, "because you are freaking sexy?"

RADCLIFFE: Well, thank you, Courtney.

(LAUGHTER).

No, that's very complimentary, indeed.

I don't, actually, at the moment, no. but, yes, you know, I have obviously in the past had girlfriends. but, no, no, not at the moment. but thank you for asking.

KING: Yes.

Gary -- Gary Oldman plays your godfather in the movie. Why do you like working with him so much?

RADCLIFFE: There's just -- there's something about Gary as a person and an actor. I mean, as an actor, I think there's -- I think you'd struggle to find anybody, any other actor of his generation with such a diverse body of work behind him. I think he's just amazing. and in terms of the encouragement and support he gives me on and off set, as well, you know, he's -- he's just been brilliant to work with, yes.

KING: We have another e-mail from Heather in Dallastown, Pennsylvania: "A lot of British actors have moved to America for their careers. Would you consider doing this?"

RADCLIFFE: I don't think I could ever live anywhere but London, to be honest. I've lived there all my life. And I mean, hey, you know, I could be saying this now and in 20 years I will have moved out here. but for now and the immediate future, I can't -- I can't really see myself living anywhere else but England.

KING: Richard Harris played Albus in the first two movies, right, and he sadly passed away?

RADCLIFFE: Yes. KING: Were you close to him?

RADCLIFFE: We got on really, really well. He was just fantastic to have on set because he was, you know, as one might expect, just an amazing storyteller. and he had a lot of stories to tell. and you never quite knew where, you know, how much to believe because they were all slightly, you know, some fiction I think was drafted in. but he really was just fantastic to be around. and obviously he's greatly missed by everybody.

KING: How different was it working for different directors?

RADCLIFFE: It's fantastic, you know. I mean working with -- we've been blessed on these Potter films with some of the most fantastic directors. I mean, particularly, I have to say, I mean I could talk for years about David Yates, who has directed the fifth, and is, I'm happy, I'm ecstatic to say, directing the sixth, as well. He's the most charming, delightful man in real life -- very, very quiet -- and is totally lovely. And, also, I think he's one of the best directors around at the moment. So, no, working with him has been just amazing.

KING: Now let's go back to "Extra's" Tanika Ray and see which lucky Harry Potter fan gets to ask his idol a question -- Tanika.

RAY: The lucky girl is Arianna. She's 10.

Say hi.

ARIANNA: Hi.

RADCLIFFE: Hello.

RAY: She's staring and I said -- like a little Chihuahua. And she said, "Hello."

Her mom said it's her dream come true to talk to you, Daniel.

What do you want to know about Daniel?

ARIANNA: What's your favorite part of the Harry Potter -- what's your favorite part about being in the Harry Potter movies?

RAY: Ooh, good question.

RADCLIFFE: I think, to be honest, over the last -- over the last few years -- over the last seven years that I've been doing the films, I've made some of the most fantastic friends. I mean a lot of my best friends in the world have, you know, I've met them on the set, and people who will play a very important part in the rest of my life, I've met there. and, you know, I would probably never met them had it not been for the movies. so that's been the best part about -- about doing these films.

RAY: And you love Harry Potter.

You just saw it, right? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

RAY: So what did you think?

RADCLIFFE: Oh, did you like it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought it was really cool because it was different from the other movies. It was just --

RAY: In what way?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was like what's going to happen next. Like --

RAY: Ooh, suspenseful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

RAY: But you thought it was overall pretty cool, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it was really cool.

RAY: How many times do you think you're going to see it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lots of times. maybe five.

RAY: Cha-ching, cha-ching, Daniel.

Do you know that?

RADCLIFFE: Five times.

Well, thank you very much.

KING: You're not kidding.

We'll take a break and be back.

RAY: He said thank you.

KING: Tanika will come back with us.

Daniel will be right back with us on this edition of "LARRY KING LIVE".

Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM HARRY POTTER AND THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX", COURTESY WARNER BROTHERS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Voldemort may be after something.

RADCLIFFE: Are you serious?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something he didn't have last time.

RADCLIFFE: You mean like a weapon?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. That's enough. He's just a boy. You say much more and you might as well induct him into the order straight away.

RADCLIFFE: Good. I want to join. If Voldemort is raising an army, then I want to fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM HARRY POTTER AND THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX", COURTESY WARNER BROTHERS)

RADCLIFFE: A full body petronus is the most difficult to produce. But shield forms can also be equally useful against a variety of opponents.

Fantastic, Ginny!

Just remember, your petronus can only protect you for as long as you stay focused.

So, focus.

Luna.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Welcome back.

Another question now for Harry Potter star Daniel Radcliffe, as seen and heard by our exclusive King cam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want it know what your favorite scene was in "Order of the Phoenix" and why.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: what's the best thing about playing Harry Potter?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to know what was your favorite scene in all of the movies to shoot and what was your favorite scene in this particular movie?

KING: OK.

Daniel?

RADCLIFFE: I think my favorite scenes to film are all the ones with Gary Oldman because we get on so well. It's sort of very easy to act caring about somebody when you really do. And, also, I think in this film, the scene when I'm sort of in the atrium at the Ministry of Magic, right at the end of the movie and the whole thing is suddenly being blown apart and there's a massive fire -- that was really fun to film because it was this beautiful set and suddenly it was all exploding. And so that was really good fun to be in the middle of.

And the best thing about playing Harry Potter, I don't know. I mean I suppose getting to work with all these amazing actors. I mean there are a lot of fantastic opportunities that these films have given me. But working with all these amazing actors, such as Gary and, also, Imelda Staunton and Michael Gambon and Alan Rickman, working with all those guys and learning from them has been an amazing opportunity.

KING: What was it like for that first screen kiss for Harry?

RADCLIFFE: it was fine. You know, the kiss is, I think, something that because -- because Harry is, you know, he is in -- everybody's first kiss is such a big deal and because Harry's -- Harry is like somebody who is in the collective consciousness of a generation of people, his first kiss means a lot to them, as well, if you know what I mean?

And so --

Larry: Yes.

RADCLIFFE: -- I think people have got a bit wrapped up in it. I mean it was great. It was fine to shoot. But I -- and I think it's a really sweet, tender moment in the film.

KING: It is.

RADCLIFFE: but it wasn't as big a deal as, perhaps, everybody thought it might be.

KING: You also did the play I've seen a few times. You did "Equus".

RADCLIFFE: yes.

KING: And if you do "Equus," you have to do a nude scene.

Was that hard for you?

RADCLIFFE: it was -- it was actually OK. It was fine. I mean, on the first night, I was terrified. and on the second night I was terrified. But after that, I really didn't care. It sort of became so much a part of it that it didn't really matter after you've done it -- after you've been naked in one group of a thousand people you can sort of do it in front of loads.

KING: All right, let's check in one more time with Tanika Ray at the Mann Theater in Westwood -- Tanika, what's happening?

RAY: Yes!

OK, these people are about to go in. They're about to miss their seats.

How are you feeling?

Look at her. She's very dedicated, Daniel.

RADCLIFFE: Excellent. Oh, you've got a scar on. wonderful.

RAY: (INAUDIBLE). it's all good. he likes it. he likes it.

So who is the most excited to see this movie?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ah, right here.

RAY: why is that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: because Harry Potter is freaking awesome, dude. The books are amazing and the movies are great so --

RAY: did you just curse on "LARRY KING LIVE"? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: did I?

Sorry.

RAY: Be careful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sorry, Daniel.

RAY: Anybody else have a passion for Daniel, more than this guy right here?

Back here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have passion. Daniel, I watch your show all the time.

You're the best, man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that accent real?

RAY: is the accent real, they want to know, Daniel?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn't want to k.

RADCLIFFE: my accent is 100 percent genuine, I promise you all. This hasn't been an act over seven years.

RAY: One hundred percent genuine. He hasn't been acting the, you know, with the English accent for seven years.

That's good to know, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's good.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a question.

RAY: Yes? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a question.

Daniel, now that you're going to be transitioning into other films other than Harry Potter, how do you think your fan base will react when they're so attached to you as being Harry?

RADCLIFFE: Good -- a very good question.

RAY: that was scholarly.

That was scholarly.

Wow!

RADCLIFFE: Incisive.

very good.

No, I think that's -- I think, you know, they were all, you know, all the fans were so supportive when I did "Equus," which is obviously a pretty big departure from Harry Potter.

they were all so supportive when I did that, that hopefully they'll be able to, you know, deal equally brilliantly with whatever else I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: oh, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

RAY: what would you guys like to see him in next, an action film maybe?

I don't know. a romantic comedy, perhaps?

Shocker, Daniel. Shocker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: an Adam Brodie kind of film.

RAY: She said an Adam Brodie kind of film.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You and Adam Brodie should star.

RAY: OK, who wants to be his leading female?

Are you Katie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll do it.

RADCLIFFE: OK, good. Well, the casting is finished.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am.

RAY: she's advertising. She's in the drama department. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm (INAUDIBLE) yes. I'm telling you, man, we're going to go far. We're going to go places you've never seen, right?

RAY: your name in the stars.

blow him a kiss and just finish it out.

There you go.

KING: Hey, Tanika --

RAY: Everybody's blowing --

KING: Tanika, I've got to take a break.

RAY: Thanks, Larry.

KING: Thanks, Tanika.

RAY: OK.

Bye.

KING: Tanika Ray at the Mann Theater in Westwood with fans.

Hey, Daniel, a couple other things.

Why do you think it's so popular?

RADCLIFFE: you know, I think it's just great -- purely just fantastic storytelling. and I think the reason that the films have been so successful is that we're fortunate to have some of the best source material around. I mean what Jo has done with these books is quite incredible, I think.

KING: And we have one more e-mail from Sandra in Bellville, Texas: "If Harry's wand really were magic and you could use it to change one thing in our world, what would it be?"

RADCLIFFE: that's a very, very good question.

Oh, god, man. That is -- that's -- that's very tough. and I have absolutely no idea.

KING: I've got it --

RADCLIFFE: I would probably use it --

KING: I'll give you an answer.

RADCLIFFE: OK.

KING: A Miss. America answer -- world peace.

RADCLIFFE: world peace. That is the Miss. America answer. That's the one I'm going with.

KING: (LAUGHTER).

Hey, Daniel, continued good luck.

It's a great movie.

As I said, I saw it and it's -- good success in anything you do.

RADCLIFFE: oh, thank you very much, indeed.

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

KING: My pleasure.

Daniel Radcliffe, the star of "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix".

Coming up in our next segment, new developments in the case of the pizza delivery man who was killed by an explosive collar. It's next.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As bank robber Brian Wells sat in police custody with a bomb locked around his neck four years ago, he insisted he had been forced to rob the PNC Bank, forced to wear the explosive that was ticking away. Minutes later, the bomb exploded killing Wells. Despite that tragic outcome prosecutors have concluded Wells, in fact, was one of the conspirators who planned the robbery.

MARY BETH BUCHANAN, U.S. ATTORNEY: It was the participant's intention to have it seem as though the person wearing the explosive device was a hostage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, HOST: Let's welcome to discuss this fascinating matter Michael Cardoza, the noted defense attorney; he's in San Francisco; in Miami Stacey Honowitz, Florida assistant state attorney; in New York, Dr. Michael Welner, the forensic psychiatrist, founder and chairman of the Forensic Panel; and in Erie, Pennsylvania, Tim Lucas, the attorney for three people who testified before the federal grand jury that produced rather today's indictments; and Allan Chernoff, CNN senior correspondent who has been atop of this scene from the get-go.

Stacey, what's the point of indicting a dead man?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Well, Larry, in the co-conspirator -- in the unindicted co-conspirator case, he's one that committed the robbery per se. And in order to prove conspiracy, you need to have the agreement in furtherance of a criminal act. There needs to be some type of overt act. In this case, the man who died is the one that actually performed the overt act. KING: And Tim, the three people you represent are the three accused?

TIM LUCAS, ATTORNEY FOR 3 GRAND JURY WITNESSES IN "PIZZA BOMB" CASE: No. They were actually three people who were subpoenaed before the grand jury that participated in the investigation that had information that they provided to the government that resulted in the indictments.

KING: What are the accused saying, Tim?

LUCAS: Well, they're both, of course, indicating that they're not responsible, that they're not guilty, that while they may have known people that were involved, they may have even been at meetings or had discussions, that none of them did anything to plan or commit the act.

KING: Michael Cardoza, is this going to be tough to prove since the one who did the act is dead?

MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it's not going to tough to prove at all. And just to clear one thing up, the one that died here, Wells, is not indicted. He's not indicted in this case. There are two other people that are indicted. He's named in the conspiracy, but that's it.

Hard to prove? No. It's going to be relatively easy to prove from all the evidence that the U.S. prosecutors have in this case.

I'll tell you. This is a situation when the prosecution is saying this guy was involved with this, I have a real difficult time with it, because he walks into a bank with four pages of notes on how to do this robbery. He then has two other pages on what to do after the robbery, which leads him to a fast food restaurant where he finds two more pages of instructions on what to do. And then they find a shotgun pellet in this kid's leg? I don't believe he was involved in this at all. I'm really anxious to hear what those witnesses said before the grand jury. So right now I don't believe he was involved in this.

KING: Tim Lucas, can you tell us what they said or you can't?

LUCAS: Well, I can certainly tell you that what the U.S. attorney from Pittsburgh that's responsible for this area said today, she said that Brian Wells was involved, although they tried to minimize his involvement. So actually the government is admitting right from the get-go in a press conference that Brian Wells was, in fact, involved. So what all the evidence is that suggests that, I'm not exactly certain. But it's clear from the government's own position that Brian Wells was involved.

KING: Dr. Welner, could people get a -- could a couple guys get another guy to strap a bomb to himself and rob a bank?

DR. MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, it happens often that all these people...

KING: Often? WELNER: ...dominate people that -- that dominant and manipulative people who don't want themselves to be involved, who don't want themselves to be prosecuted find someone who is a patsy, who is a follower, and can, under certain circumstances, manipulate that individual into taking the fall.

In fact, in gang crimes this happens regularly. And they refer to these people as crash test dummies.

KING: Allen, what's the reaction there in Erie to all of this?

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, Larry, if I can first just mention, according to the prosecutors here, it seems that Wells was involved at the beginning. They're alleging that, that he at least was involved in the plotting. But then it was a big surprise to him what actually happened on the robbery day. Apparently, he was expecting that there was going to be a fake bomb put on around his neck. And indeed just before the robbery co-conspirators forced him, allegedly, to actually put on a real bomb. And, of course, we all know what happened. It exploded and he died.

KING: Do we know -- does anyone know why it exploded, Tim?

LUCAS: The best evidence so far is that it was on a timing device and that because Brian Wells got way laid by the police, the timing device was continuing to run and that because he was stopped, he wasn't able to disarm it or follow the so-called scavenger list in order to be to be able to disable the bomb in the time they had allotted him.

KING: Stacey, what do you make of naming him an unindicted, in a sense, co-conspirator?

HONOWITZ: Well, I think in this case, like I said earlier, he's one that performed the overt act. And I think that nobody really knows. Everybody is speculating as to what his involvement was. Maybe his involvement was in the very beginning. Maybe he tried to withdraw from the conspiracy, which still allows him to be named as an unindicted co-conspirator. And maybe he was double crossed in the end. Maybe he didn't want to go along with the plan. They knew if he got caught he was going to say that he was under duress by these people and they didn't want a witness later on in the case. So I think we have to wait and see what evidence comes out to see how involved in the conspiracy he actually was.

KING: We are speculating.

Up next, what the dead delivery man's family has to say about these allegations just ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wells' family maintains prosecutors are mistaken.

JOHN WELLS, BROTHER OF BRIAN WELLS: Brian was a complete innocent murder victim in this case. There's no evidence suggesting otherwise or you would have heard that evidence today. (END VIDEO CLIP)

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WELLS: When you have a bomb locked to your neck and the federal authorities help your head off to get the bomb off, there was no way Brian put that on himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Allan Chernoff, there's a puzzling aspect to this. We have a lady involved in this. We have the family denying. This is a weird case, is it not?

CHERNOFF: Larry, this is as bizarre a case as you're going to find. They hardly write them this way in Hollywood. I mean, not only a pizza delivery as the person who robs the bank, a guy who is not mercenary in the least. No one would think that this guy would want to rob a bank. Then he's blown up. And now we hear from the U.S. attorney that the mastermind behind all of this is a woman who actually killed her boyfriend because she was afraid that he would rat her out. It's incredible.

KING: Dr. Welner, this is psychiatric, isn't it?

WELNER: Well, you know, it is and it isn't. The woman we speak of has a history of bipolar disorder. But bipolar disorder is not a person who has shallow attachments enough that she would plot to kill her father, a person who is brazen enough to call investigators because she believed she could talk them out of making her a prime suspect, not manipulative enough to convince an ex-fiance to keep an ex-significant other's body in his freezer. That's not bipolar disorder. That's psychopathy. And so, whether she has a psychiatric illness or not, it may not be relevant to her role as the mastermind of this case.

KING: Michael Cardoza, will this ever get to trial?

CARDOZA: You know it probably won't get to trial because she -- Mrs. Armstrong, is already doing time. I think it's seven to 20 years. So she's in state prison right now. She's got the ex-boyfriend that she killed and she puts in the freezer.

In this case, there'll probably be some sort of plea bargain that'll be probably consecutive time to what she's getting on this. In other words, she's going to be in jail for the rest of her life. She's 58 years old. She will not see the light of day again.

KING: Stacey, would you want to prosecute in this?

HONOWITZ: Well, it's such a bizarre, interesting case, I think anybody would want to be in the courtroom when all of this is going on because it really is like a TV show, a movie. And I think that any prosecutor who has really great evidence and has evidence of a conspiracy, maybe people flipping, people talking, it would be a real interesting case to try. So I'd love to go into the courtroom and try it.

KING: Tim, in essence what did the witnesses say?

LUCAS: In essence what the witnesses said is they provided early investigative information that put the group together, so to speak, because early on there was a lot of questions as to how these people even knew one another, where they may have met, how they got hooked up, so the witnesses primarily put names, places, relative dates to when certain things were discussed, meetings took place. And in addition to that a number of them, of course, had direct conversations with Marjorie Diehl Armstrong about her theory or her version as to what it was that was going on with Brian Wells and the Pizza Bomber Case.

KING: Allan, one of the weirder aspects of this is that it seems that the victim is being blamed.

CHERNOFF: In part that is true, and that is yet another weird aspect of all of this. And the family, as we've seen, just feels this is a final blow. I mean, of course, horrific enough to see their sibling and son -- the mother, in fact, and the siblings were at the press conference here today -- and horrific enough, as I was saying, for him to see him actually blow himself up, to die there, and now to be in part blamed for the whole crime.

In fact, at the press conference, and it was an exceptional one, they were actually heckling the U.S. attorney. I've never seen that in all of my reporting, to actually have people heckling a U.S. attorney at her own press conference, calling her a liar.

KING: Curiouser and curiouser. We're going to devote a lot more time on this. Thank you all very much.

Up next, the latest legal perils of Paris best friend for life Nicole Richie. Will she cop a plea or take her chances with a trial? We'll get some insight into her DUI case next.

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KING: In Glendale, California, today attorneys for "Simple Life" star Nicole Richie got a delay for her DUI trial. It was back on December that Paris' BFF was stopped by police for driving the wrong way on a California freeway. And cops say she failed a field sobriety test.

Today her lawyers were in court and here to talk about it Harvey Levin, the managing editor of TMZ.com and of the upcoming TV show of the tame name. It's going to be a biggie this fall. And in Atlanta, Judge Glenda Hatchett, the presiding judge on syndicated television's "Judge Hatchett Show," former chief judge of Fulton County Judicial System.

They got the delay because of what, Harvey? HARVEY LEVIN, MANAGING EDITOR, TMZ.COM: Well, they have an expert witness in this case. And he's on vacation until mid-August and they need him. What's really interesting about the expert is that he focuses on drug testing. And we got some documents today. And she's going to say that the drug testing on her was bogus, that they did a urine test but they didn't do a blood test, which is more reliable. And she's going to pretty much hang her hat on that.

KING: Judge, what do you make of that?

JUDGE GLENDA HATCHETT, TV'S "JUDGE HATCHETT": Well, I think it's reasonable to get the delay because that's really the strong point in the defense's case here, that they have to really have an expert to come in and say that the field sobriety test doesn't work. Short of that, I don't know how they have a defense in her situation at all.

KING: But how would an expert witness affect you as a judge if he or she testified to the fact that the test wasn't conducted well?

HATCHETT: Well, I think that I would have to give that great consideration because there are times when these tests are flawed. And if I was convinced that there was a problem with this test, then I would really take that very seriously. So that could be a turning point in this case if they go to trial.

KING: Do you have to test someone, Harvey, who is driving the wrong side of the highway?

LEVIN: Well, I mean that's the deal. I mean not just that. She was driving the wrong way on the freeway and she admits to the cop, at least the cops say, that she had smoked dope and was on Vicodin, had taken Vicodin.

HATCHETT: Yes, she did.

LEVIN: So it's a real...

KING: Does Vicodin cause you to drive the wrong way? It's a painkiller.

LEVIN: Well, but it can also kind of alter your senses. But Vicodin and pot and the fact that, you know, God knows what she ate, if anything, that day, she's driving the wrong way on the freeway. So, you know, it's going to be real difficult to say well, the urine test was flawed. Why did she do that?

And you know we'll say this. I mean you probably had her on your show, Shawn Chapman Holly. She was one of O.J. Simpson's lawyers. And if she could help get him off, you never know.

KING: As you know, Paris Hilton was on this show a couple weeks ago. Here's what she said about her friend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Nicole Richie, how is she doing? PARIS HILTON, HEIRESS: She's doing great.

KING: Is she going to go to jail?

HILTON: I hope not.

KING: What did she tell you about what happened to her?

HILTON: You know, she just -- everyone makes mistakes, and she just -- I wish her the best. She's like my sister. I love her so much. So I don't want anything bad to happen to her.

KING: Did she admit she made mistakes?

HILTON: Yes, of course she has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: How much word does the cop's word count in court, judge?

HATCHETT: A lot. It does. And I do agree with what Harry is saying, too. It's just a question of the expert. That's really the only defense they have in this situation. But she was going the wrong way on the highway. She does say to the cops, according to their statements, she admitted to both the use of marijuana and Vicodin in this situation. And so, this is going to really be an uphill battle. And I think the police will carry a great deal of credibility in the case in their testimony.

KING: Does she do jail time, Harvey?

LEVIN: If she gets convicted -- she has a prior DUI four years ago.

HATCHETT: Right.

LEVIN: If she gets convicted, minimum five days in jail.

The other problem she has is that Paris Hilton got nailed with this 45-day sentence. And there might be a subtle kind of pressure on another judge in dealing with another young celebrity to be tough because judges don't want the impression created that they are lenient, especially on celebs.

KING: Who is the judge?

LEVIN: He's a really tough guy. He's a commissioner who is no nonsense. He is very strict. And if she gets convicted, she's going down for some time.

KING: A rumor she's pregnant?

LEVIN: She is pregnant. We know that. We know that.

KING: A done deal. How far along?

LEVIN: I don't know how far along. But there has been speculation that maybe the judge would defer a sentence if she's convicted until after birth. That's not going to happen with this judge.

KING: No?

LEVIN: No, this judge will put her in jail. And they have a facility for her. She will be in the general population but he's not going to defer it.

HATCHETT: Well, and...

KING: Judge, would you put a pregnant woman in jail?

HATCHETT: Oh, absolutely if it called for it, Larry. And the truth is that pregnant women go to jail all the time because otherwise we would be discriminating against men who can't get pregnant if we said, OK, you don't have to go because you're pregnant. I think that there will be a lot of attention in this situation. And to Harry's point about this sentence...

KING: Harvey.

HATCHETT: I'm sorry, Harvey. I do apologize, Harvey. I know that so well and I do apologize.

LEVIN: No problem.

HATCHETT: Harvey's point that as a repeat offender; California says that you must do a minimum of three months. But there's also an interesting kind of caveat to that law in California which says that if she agrees to be on probation or if the judge agrees to probation for three years, then she would only have to do a minimum of four days. So it's going to be very interesting. I think there's going to be a tremendous amount of pressure on the defense attorney to try to work out a plea arrangement in this case.

KING: Is she talking?

LEVIN: You mean, to -- no, as a matter of fact, it's interesting. She has a boyfriend, Joel Madden, who is in Good Charlotte, the band. And they went to Calgary the night before last for a concert. But she was hiding behind a pillow at both airports. So she's really kind of on the down-low but she's still partying.

KING: As this progresses, we'll have you both back. Harvey Levin and Judge Glenda Hatchett, thank you so much.

Up next, a tribute to one former first lady from one of her successors, Barbara bush joins us to talk about a great fellow Texan, Lady Bird Johnson. Don't go away.

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KING: Joining us on the phone is good friend Barbara Bush, the former first lady of the United States. Lady Bird Johnson, the first lady who made conservation and national beautification her causes, died earlier today at the age of 94.

How well did you know her, Barbara?

BARBARA BUSH, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE United States: I knew her pretty well. She was a very -- I knew her probably as well as any of the other first ladies that I knew, and I just loved her. The minute we got to Washington, she generously asked all the congressional wives to come upstairs. Nobody had ever seen the upstairs before.

I mean, she's most generous of ladies. And she supported my foundation. And she just was a wonderful -- I think very probably under-praised lady except for people who loved gardens, and loved their country, and loved their highways. And she just was a great lady.

KING: And also as I understand it very strong.

BUSH: Oh, I think so. But she was -- I always think of her as kind. George's mother knew her very well and maybe that's the reason that I -- they were in the Senate together, and maybe it's the reason I liked her so much because George's mother told me how nice she was, and she was. All the Senate ladies liked her. And I was the president of the Senate ladies, so when George was the vice president. And I mean, everybody loved Lady Bird.

KING: She suffered a stroke. She was blind at death, wasn't she?

BUSH: I beg your pardon.

KING: She was blind.

BUSH: Blind?

KING: I thought she had gone true.

BUSH: I think that's true. No, I think that is true, yes. And she just was a wonderful, precious lady. She -- it's hard to describe how much she means to Texans because our highways are beautiful. You can't drive to College Station or Austin or any place that you're not looking at beautification. And none of our national highways have billboards. I mean Lady Bird did a lot for the country. But more than that, she was just a loving lady.

KING: Is that her legacy, beautification, conservation?

BUSH: Oh, I think definitely, definitely. But she made a huge effort, you know. She came out for the Gerry Ford Library reopening. It was freezing and she never complained. She smiled her way through. Everybody loved her.

KING: You are a -- I don't want to say fraternity. You are a sorority, aren't you, you and the ladies?

BUSH: Well, probably, some closer than others, I think. But I think we are, yes.

KING: You have a special place in history. And she -- and as you point out, very dominant in Texas. BUSH: Oh, well, yes, very loved in Texas. I mean everybody -- but she just was a great lady. And her daughters have sort of picked up the gamut or whatever and have really kept on with her good work.

KING: That's a very good point. Thank you so much for spending these moments with us, Barbara.

BUSH: Well, thank you very much.

KING: And best of luck and best wishes to the president.

BUSH: Thanks a lot. He sends his best.

KING: Thank you.

BUSH: Bye.

KING: Bye.

Barbara Bush, the former first lady of the United States saluting her friend, the late Lady Bird Johnson who passed away today at age 94.

We'll be back again tomorrow night, of course. And Criss Angel will be one of our special guests, the famed magician out of Las Vegas who -- maybe we'll have him do some wild tricks. Maybe he'll have -- no,, I had a wild thought there. I'll bring it up tomorrow night. It was funny though.

Let's go to John Roberts. He will host "AC 360."

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