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Nancy Grace
Wyoming Country Singer Shot in Mid-Performance, Husband Sought
Aired July 16, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Breaking news, manhunt. A gorgeous up- and-coming country-Western star on stage singing, gunned down with a single shot sniper-style, the audience diving for cover, the sniper shot believed to be taken nearly 100 yards away through a glass window, abruptly ending the life of a young mom, a talented singer, a woman devoted to people with disabilities.
And tonight: Is that deadly shooting of the country singer Robin Munis connected to a series of harassing phone calls and this missing black pick- up? Tonight, police hone in on a trained Army sniper on the loose, possibly in dense, heavily-wooded area near Cheyenne. And PS, the trained sniper is her husband.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twelve hours after a midnight murder at Old Chicago, a breeze (ph) pushes leftover police tape 100 feet away from the murder scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... forty-year-old white female. She was shot and killed while performing at the Old Chicago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheyenne police say this man, 36-year-old David Munis, drove to Old Chicago in a black Dodge pick-up truck, took a high- powered rifle and shot his ex-wife, Robin Munis, from a distance while she was performing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight: A Nevada toddler and his 11-month-old baby sister found nearly dead, malnourished and suffering from multiple threatening health issues, all caused by neglect, the home filthy, littered with trash, dirty dishes, cat urine. Why? Two perfectly healthy, seemingly normal parents addicted on line, nearly $50,000 spent on super video and computer equipment, even a giant plasma TV, while their children starve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Reno, Nevada, couple accused tonight of leaving their 22-month-old son and 11-month baby girl to starve because they were too busy playing Dungeons and Dragons on the Internet. Police and social workers find the baby only wearing diapers, near death, severely malnourished, with a host of other health issues, including infection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First, breaking news. The manhunt for a sniper accused of gunning down an up-and-coming country-Western star, Cheyenne, Wyoming.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was singing with the band in a bar up on a stage. Out of nowhere, through a glass door, a bullet shatters the glass. Customers say at first they thought perhaps the speaker had blown up or a firecracker, but it was actually a shot believed to be from the parking lot or from even further outside the parking lot outside. One shot hit her in the head, and she goes down.
Customers go running for their lives. Some hide in the refrigerator, others in the kitchen and bathroom. They`re crawling on the floor. They don`t know what to make of it. They don`t know if there was going to be other shots or whatever. There was utter chaos. In the end, one shot hit her in the head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He not only is a former soldier but is a specialist in sniper training. In other words, he received training in not just shooting from far distances but also in how to hide. He also could live in the woods for long periods of time. This is a man who could live in the woods virtually forever, making this even a harder hunt for police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now, that manhunt ongoing in a densely-wooded area. Who gunned down an up-and-coming country-Western star? Police honing in on this man, with sniper training through the Army.
Straight out to Amy Richards, the news director with Clear Channel there in Cheyenne. Amy, let`s go back for a moment. What exactly happened there in Old Chicago restaurant?
AMY RICHARDS, CLEAR CHANNEL CHEYENNE: Well, according to the police, Nancy, what happened was at about a little after midnight Saturday morning, a shot was fired. They were called to the Old Chicago restaurant on a report of a shot fired. They found a 40-year-old female, which was Robin Munis, on the floor with a gunshot wound to the head. She was pronounced dead at the scene.
Upon further investigation, they determined that the shot came from outside the restaurant. And people had placed the black-and-silver pick-up with National Guard plate 975, which was her husband`s truck, in the area. There was no witness. And the police can verify this in a little while, but there was no witness to him actually shooting it, but his truck was in the area. He did have the expertise. And the shot did come from outside of the restaurant.
GRACE: Do we know the caliber yet, Amy, the caliber of the bullet?
RICHARDS: I do not have the caliber of the bullet. The police will have that. But he did own several rifles, I think up to about 10 rifles is what I understand now, 10 high-powered rifles. Two of the ones that I had heard about, one was a -- he owned a .308 rifle and a 7-millimeter rifle. Those are the two I know about.
And now they`ve -- they`re searching areas around Cheyenne and in places where he`s known -- he`s very -- knows very well, like Camp Guernsey, where he was promoter for -- a recruiter for Camp Guernsey for the Wyoming National Guard. They used a Black Hawk helicopter to fly over places in southeast Wyoming, in the back country, to see if they could find him today.
So that`s the latest. They still have not found him as of just five minutes -- you know, five minutes ago, they hadn`t found him.
GRACE: Joining us right now is a very, very special guest. Stuart Myers is joining us. He is the CEO of Optac International, a military- trained sniper expert. The evidence suggests that this shot was from about 100 yards away, through glass, one shot, directly to the head. It`s my understanding that the bullet was found lodged somewhere near the venue where she was performing. What type of expertise would it take to pull off that kind of shot?
STUART MYERS, CEO OF OPTAC, INTERNATIONAL: Well, it takes some great expertise and a lot of luck because ballistics, depending upon the distance from the stage to the glass, would highly suggest that the shot was probably not taken from that extended distance.
GRACE: Back to Amy Richards, news director with Clear Channel there in Cheyenne. You stated that you don`t know the caliber of the bullet yet. Was the bullet recovered there in the venue?
RICHARDS: Yes, it was recovered in a doorframe. The police found the bullet in the doorframe when they got to the scene, so -- I do believe we`re going to have one of the representatives from the police on, so...
GRACE: Right. What can you tell me about their domestic life?
RICHARDS: Well, what I know about their domestic life is they were separated. They were planning on getting a divorce. And as far as I can tell, there had been no calls to their house -- you know, domestic calls to their house. And he had no criminal record. David Munis had no criminal record, as far as I can tell.
GRACE: What can you tell me about harassing phone calls that very day to the home?
RICHARDS: Right. A couple hours before the actual incident, police contacted David Munis regarding some harassing but non-threatening -- they were called harassing phone calls, but non-threatening phone calls, that Robin had received. And they talked to him about it, and he promised he wouldn`t make any more phone calls. And that happened several hours prior to the shooting incident.
GRACE: Joining me is right now is Mike Millheiser. He is the best friend and band member of the deceased, Robin Munis. Mike, thank you for being with us.
MIKE MILLHEISER, FRIEND AND BAND MEMBER: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: What can you tell me about Robin? Was she in fear of her husband?
MILLHEISER: No. We talked a great deal about -- I knew her family well, and she never, ever told me that she was in fear of bodily harm from her husband. He had not done that in the past. And she just wanted the relationship to be over.
GRACE: Now, Robin has children, I believe. Are there four children?
MILLHEISER: Yes, there`s four children ranging from 20 years old to 5.
GRACE: How many are by this husband?
MILLHEISER: One, the youngest one, the 5-year-old.
GRACE: Where is the 5-year-old?
MILLHEISER: From what I understand -- I don`t know, but from what I understand, the children are in protective custody until they catch Dave.
GRACE: Mike, tell me about her take on the relationship. Was she the one that wanted out, or was it the husband?
MILLHEISER: I think it might have been mutual. She did want a divorce. They had a rocky marriage, like a lot of people, but she told me recently that she had asked Dave for a divorce and never mentioned to me that it got violent or it got ugly. But what happened between them privately, nobody will ever know.
GRACE: So she is the one that asked for the divorce, according to your knowledge. You say they had a rocky relationship. What was the problem?
MILLHEISER: I think distance. He was always away on training missions and things like that. She was always out performing, and it just wasn`t working out for them. It was -- from what I understand, and I`ve known them a long time, it wasn`t abusive. He didn`t beat her up. They weren`t screaming and yelling at each other. It had just come to the end of the relationship.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Joyce in Georgia. Hi, Joyce.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was wondering, could they not try his cell phone number and possibly pick up signals of where he might be located?
GRACE: You know, Joyce, I agree with you. What about it? To Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers. Detective, first of all, if the vehicle, the truck is still missing, why would they be searching in a heavily-wooded area, if he`s gone in the truck? They must have some information this guy, who is a survivalist, is in the woods. I don`t quite understand that. And what about the ping action on the phone?
DET. LT. STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY PD AND COMPUTER SPECIALIST: Nancy, this is a very significant challenge for law enforcement. They`re dealing with a trained warrior. This individual no doubt has counterinsurgency training, counterterrorist training. He knows how to hide. He`s not going to have any cell phones near him. as far as his cell phone, that`s a good question, but I would guarantee that that cell phone that he owns is gone.
GRACE: Joining me here on the set, a face you know well, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig, also author and host of a brand-new show of her own, "Without Prejudice" on GSN. I want to talk to you about the escalation of domestic violence. It`s my understanding from working at a battered women`s center that it escalates when the woman tries to leave. Why? Why then?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s when the husband usually feels threatened and in danger. And very often, in an abusive marriage, the worthlessness gets projected on to the wife. So when the wife leaves, all of the sudden, the husband has to face his own dependency. Although I would think here -- I would wonder if there`s post-traumatic stress disorder since he`s in combat, and I wonder if that had something to do with the way this relationship played out in the end.
GRACE: You know, that`s interesting that you say combat. Back to Amy Richards with Clear Channel. How much combat had the husband seen, actual combat?
RICHARDS: Well, he`s a member of the Wyoming Army National Guard right now, and he`s basically a promoter and recruiter for the Guard. Prior to that, he was in the Army, and that`s where he took the sniper training. It was in the Army. Don`t know if he was in combat.
GRACE: What about it? To you, Mike Millheiser. This is a friend and band member of Robin Munis, an absolutely gorgeous country-Western singer, up-and-coming star. What do we know? Was he exposed to combat?
MILLHEISER: I don`t know that he was in combat. If he was, he never discussed it when I was over at the house or anything like that. I knew he was trained as a sniper, but I`m not aware of any combat that he had been in.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss out of the New York jurisdiction, Lida Rodriguez-Taseff out of Florida, and also with us, Carmen St. George, also out of New York. Welcome, ladies.
Susan Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, I`ll tell you something. One out of four women can expect to be victims of domestic violence in their lifetime, and that`s according to Sanctuary for Families. Unfortunately, Robin might just be the latest statistic.
We, as a society, need to take domestic violence way more seriously than we do. When there are a series of harassing phone calls, we need an officer to go over to the person`s house to check it out. If that police officer had gone to Mr. Munis`s house, perhaps he would have seen what this man was preparing to do, what he was -- the guns that he might have been getting ready, the ammunition that might have been out, and maybe one more person could have been saved.
GRACE: You know, Carmen St. Georgia, you and Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, the consummate defense attorneys -- if it`s not him, why is he hiding out, probably in the woods near Cheyenne? To you, Carmen.
CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I hear what Susan`s saying, and I`m actually floored. There`s absolutely no evidence of domestic violence we know of. You just heard from...
GRACE: Well, wouldn`t you count murder of a husband to a wife as domestic violence? Does that not count?
ST. GEORGE: Nancy, domestic violence is a history. There would be...
GRACE: No, it`s not.
ST. GEORGE: ... some sort of history here of...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... history for this to be qualified as domestic violence. And hold on. Let`s go to an expert, Cassandra Thomas joining us. She is a senior VP at a Houston-area women`s center. She works with abused women. Wouldn`t you qualify, ma`am, shooting somebody -- this is police`s prime suspect. He`s not been convicted yet -- shooting somebody dead in the head, a husband and a wife, domestic violence? And how many, how many times, Ms. Thomas, you have seen domestic violence that has gone on for years that has never been reported?
CASSANDRA THOMAS, HOUSTON AREA WOMEN`S CENTER: I think that`s the key, is that we don`t know the precursors that were available. All we have is what a friend knows when he was there, and most abusers do not act out when there`s someone else in the home. And men and women don`t tell other people. And many times, we think abuse is only hitting, but there`s also the violence that can be verbal and emotional, that are also precursors to this kind of violence. We can`t just see hitting as the only thing to say there is a history of violence.
We don`t know what he`s been saying to her. We don`t know what kind of things that he did in the home that let her know that he could be a violent individual. So we can`t say there was no domestic violence. The only person that knows that is him and her.
GRACE: Now, Carmen St. George, you were saying?
ST. GEORGE: Nancy, what we`re talking about is that there`s no precursors here that we know of. Of course, we have not investigated fully into this case. But we`ve got a best friend. We`ve got four children who live in the home. We have no other signs of any kind of antagonistic relationship, other than two people who because of distance have grown apart. And also, throw into that...
GRACE: Yes, and one bullet.
ST. GEORGE: Nancy, he does not have a history of criminal violence. And we have to wait, listen, and see what facts come up because there`s absolutely no history of any kind of threatening phone calls even on that day.
GRACE: Hey, guess what?
ST. GEORGE: All you have...
GRACE: Guess what? Before Ted Bundy was caught, he didn`t have a history, either. What about it, Lida. Weigh in.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Bottom line here is that there is no history, but more importantly, that we don`t know exactly what caused him to snap, even if we assume that it was him, because if there is no history of domestic violence, then what we may have is an instance of a diminished capacity of -- an instance of somebody just snapping and having a viable defense for that, mental illness, something to do with his military service, something that we`re not focusing on right now that he...
GRACE: Work it, girl!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You work it! Diminished capacity. Susan Moss, let`s think that through. Let`s listen to these two defense attorneys -- diminished capacity. Here`s a guy that`s had an elite set of officers on the run for quite a while now as he apparently is hiding out like Eric Rudolph, living off nuts and berries in the forest. He`s outsmarted them. He, apparently, according to police, took a shot at 100 yards away, one shot to the head through glass.
Now, how long do you think it took him to plan this whole thing, to scramble up into position, get her in his scope, and shoot her? Now, tell me, Susan Moss -- let`s talk about this theory Lida has just brought up of diminished capacity. That`s not going to work. That won`t hold water. Why?
MOSS: Because this has been hours and hours and hours and hours. One only has to remember "Rambo: First Blood" to see what these officers might be in for. The fact that he`s kept these elite police officers on the run for so many hours, the fact that there was tremendous preparation put in place, when this one single bullet was fired says to me no diminished capacity. Domestic violence is a dirty little secret, and the fact that that secret wasn`t released earlier doesn`t mean it`s not apparent in this case.
GRACE: Out to the lines.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Go ahead.
ST. GEORGE: Wait a minute. What we`re talking about here is the possibility of a person who was incredibly highly trained by this government, and who if he snapped, is reacting to a set of circumstances for which he has been trained to react. This is a machine now. This isn`t a person who knows exactly what`s going on because they go on autopilot and...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I like it. He`s a machine. OK. Amy in Nevada, question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Love you, Nancy.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he`s living off the land, wouldn`t his vehicle be visible someplace?
GRACE: You know, that was just my question. To Amy Richards with Clear Channel. The vehicle is missing. Why are they looking in this densely-wooded area?
Amy, I`m going to be back, and shortly joining us is going to be Captain Jeff Schulz of the Cheyenne Police Department, and we`ll get the answer to that for you.
Amy, can you shed any light on it as we go to break?
RICHARDS: ... a huge, huge state, and there`s lots of places to hide. That`s the only answer I can give you, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are looking for an estranged ex-husband whose name is David Munis. He`s a 36-year-old white male with brown hair, hazel eyes. He`s believed to be driving a black `99 Dodge pick-up, a Ram pick- up, four-door, extended cab.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, a manhunt in a densely wooded area around Cheyenne, Wyoming. An up-and-coming Western country star gunned down, a single gunshot wound to the head believed to be fired sniper-style.
Out to Captain Jeff Schulz with the Cheyenne Police Department, joining us right now. Captain, I know you`ve got your hands full. I want to thank you for speaking with us. Sir, do we know the caliber of the weapon?
CAPT. JEFF SCHULZ, CHEYENNE POLICE DEPARTMENT: We haven`t determined the caliber of the weapon. We believe it to be a rifle bullet. We`ve recovered the bullet. We just have not finished ballistic tests on it.
GRACE: Was it destroyed? I understand that there was an entry and exit wound, and it lodged itself somewhere in the venue?
SCHULZ: Correct. There was a door sill that it entered, but we were able to recover it from the door sill.
GRACE: Was it so totally damaged, you can`t get a type on it?
SCHULZ: I`m guessing we can get a type. Right now, if I made a guess at it, it`d probably be inaccurate. But we know it was a rifle...
GRACE: That`s right, Murphy`s law would definitely kick in. Captain Jeff Schulz with us from the Cheyenne Police Department, answering a few of your questions. Captain, if the vehicle, the black pick-up, is still missing, why do you think he`s not on the run in it, as opposed to hiding out in the woods, Captain?
SCHULZ: We think that there`s equal possibilities. We`ve got to start somewhere, so we`re starting places that he`s been camping, hunting, fishing, that type of thing, where he may be hiding out.
GRACE: We`ll be right back with Captain Jeff Schulz of the Cheyenne Police Department.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe him very dangerous. He is attached to the Wyoming Guard up in Guernsey, where I believe he was transferring to as -- from training a counter-sniper (ph) in the military. He`s known to have several long guns. We believe he`s got a .308 rifle, a 7-millimeter rifle (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now, a manhunt going on in the heavily-wooded areas around Cheyenne, Wyoming. An up-and-coming country-Western star gunned down with a single sniper-style wound to the head. Right now, police looking for her husband.
Out to Captain Jeff Schulz with the Cheyenne Police Department. Captain, our lines are being flooded right now with people saying this guy`s being targeted because he`s with the military. I`m sure that`s not the reason that he has been named a suspect and you`re searching for him. What points to him, Captain?
SCHULZ: We`ve gathered information in some warrant services at his home. We`ve recovered evidence that very strongly indicate that he is responsible for the crime.
GRACE: Can you tell us about any of it?
SCHULZ: I`m sorry, I can`t release the specifics. The DA`s office is still waiting to review some of that information.
GRACE: I understand completely. But here`s the obvious one, Sue Moss. If he`s not involved, then why isn`t he on the scene? His wife has been shot dead.
MOSS: Why isn`t he with his 5-year-old child?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Residents who live across the street from Old Chicago were going to sleep before the shooting; then came the gunshot just after midnight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just one bang, and, I mean, it echoed, so we knew it was something big.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seconds later, they say this quiet neighborhood turned into a war zone. Neighbors say that`s when all the commotion took place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When they pulled out there, I saw a couple of guys right out in front here pull out their machine guns. I knew it was something serious there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A serious incident that leaves one woman dead, the shooter on the loose, as Cheyenne police work around the clock to find the man that they say is extremely dangerous. Twelve hours after a midnight murder at Old Chicago, a breeze pushes leftover police tape 100 feet away from the murder scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a 40-year-old white female. She was shot and killed while performing at the Old Chicago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheyenne police say this man, 36-year-old David Munis, drove to Old Chicago a black Dodge pickup truck, took a high-powered rifle, and shot his ex-wife, Robin Munis, from a distance while she was performing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He fired from outside the bar. She was killed inside the bar.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Apparently, this guy has been on the run, living off the land now for over 48 hours, if he is actually hiding out in densely wooded areas around Cheyenne. Also, his pickup missing. Is this man responsible for the sniper-style execution of a young up-and-coming country western star?
Straight out to the lines. Danielle in Wyoming, hi, Danielle.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: I was born and raised in Wyoming, and I know that hunting is a very popular pastime in our state. And I was just wondering if the authorities in Cheyenne have enlisted the expertise of their local sportsmen or hunting outfitters to help search the areas, because they would be very familiar with it.
GRACE: Excellent question, Danielle. What about it, Captain Schulz?
CAPT. JEFF SCHULZ, CHEYENNE POLICE: We`re relying on friends that have personally hunted with him in the area to show us different places where he may be, where he`s been in the past, hunting camps, that type of thing. So we`re using the resources that we have that knew him the best to try to narrow down the position of where he might be.
GRACE: How long has he been on the run now, how many hours, Captain?
SCHULZ: Well, since a little after midnight on Saturday morning.
GRACE: So Saturday, Sunday, almost Sunday to Monday, going on 48 hours. Captain, I`m a little concerned about where the car, where the vehicle may be ditched. While you`re spending time in the woods, is someone else searching the possibility that he`s long gone in that pickup truck?
SCHULZ: We are, and we have a nationwide alert out for the pickup truck, as well. We had a helicopter up searching the wooded areas for obviously both him and the vehicle, which would be much easier to spot from the air.
GRACE: That tag number is Wyoming license number NG 975. It`s a `99 four-door extended cab, black Dodge Ram pickup, some gray on the bottom of the vehicle. Take a look.
Mary in Wisconsin, hi, Mary.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: I would like to know if they have helicopters with those infrared sensors that picks up people from their body heat, checking in the woods for him? I know we do in Wisconsin.
GRACE: Detective Rogers, how do those things work?
DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY P.D.: Well, the helicopters will actually fly over a particular area, and there will be a sensor that could pick up body heat, very little body heat, indeed. So, again, we`re talking about a trained warrior, so he probably has methods even to prevent that from happening.
GRACE: When you say "trained warrior," what are you talking about?
ROGERS: Well, we`re talking about an individual who`s a sniper. He`s a cold-blooded killer. You know, the military is very, very good in training these individuals to take somebody out without any, any remorse, so he`s well-trained in counterterrorism, counterinsurgency. He knows how to hide; he knows how to kill.
GRACE: And to you, back to captain Jeff Schulz with the Cheyenne Police Department, Captain, that poses an even more significant risk to your men and women out trying to find him.
SCHULZ: Absolutely, we have to be very careful. He`s highly trained. He`s an individual with many, many skills, and we have to be aware of that.
GRACE: I want to go back to Dr. William Morrone joining us out of Madison Heights, Dr. Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist and expert in his field, this type of bullet fired about 100 yards away, we know we`ve got an entry and an exit, what would that do?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: This is for illustration purposes. The actual bullet`s probably two to three times larger than this and four to five times faster. See how small this bullet is? When it goes in the head and creates a shockwave, the shockwave in the head is as big as this cylinder. Instant death, there`s no way you can survive this. And when a bullet exits, it tends to create a lot more damage. And they`re lucky to have the bullet.
GRACE: You know, they really are. How badly do you believe that bullet has been damaged? Is it beyond all recognition? Will they be able to get a match back to a gun, if they find a weapon?
MORRONE: They`ll be able to match it back to a manufacturer, because, deep inside the casing, there`s markings and there`s numbers, and that`s their job. They`re the specialists. They`ll have the FBI to help them.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Barbara in Michigan. Hi, Barbara.
CALLER: Hi, Barbara -- hi, Nancy. You`re wonderful, I`m sorry.
GRACE: Thank you, love. What`s your question?
CALLER: There were harassing phone calls earlier before the shooting; wouldn`t that point to some kind of domestic violence?
GRACE: Yes, I don`t know why the defense attorneys are trying to ignore that. Dr. Robi, back to domestic violence, a possible motive here - - and you were saying he snapped because he thought he was at war?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, it almost sounds like either he`s a paranoid guy who had post-traumatic stress, plus we don`t know how he viewed women. And once his wife decided to leave him, she became the enemy, and he went in to, "She`s an enemy, and this is how I treat enemies."
Listen, I`m not saying he doesn`t deserve to be punished for his crime, but there is something psychologically slightly different about this case. There might have been abuse in the marriage or he might have been a guy who was deteriorating for reasons that we don`t know yet.
GRACE: You mentioned, point blank, that you thought it was because of combat. We have absolutely not one scintilla of evidence suggesting this guy was ever in combat. He probably worked at a mall recruiting.
LUDWIG: But he had to get training. And, you know, there are certain fragile personalities who maybe can`t tolerate what the training process is. And maybe that wasn`t evident when he first entered.
GRACE: Back to Captain Jeff Schulz of the Cheyenne Police Department, Captain, what do we know about his background? Had he ever seen combat?
SCHULZ: I`m not aware of that at all.
GRACE: So you know that he has not or we just don`t know?
SCHULZ: We just don`t know.
GRACE: You know, very interesting, Captain Jeff Schulz. It`s my understanding that Wyoming does have the death penalty. Do you know the modes of death penalty in Wyoming?
SCHULZ: Lethal injection.
GRACE: And let`s go back out to the lawyers, based on what Captain Schulz is telling us, out to Susan Moss, Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, and Carmen St. George, Lida, bottom line, he didn`t just shoot -- if he is, in fact, guilty. He`s not been tried yet, but he is a suspect at this juncture. He didn`t just shoot his wife. He endangered a whole room full of people. They were all diving for cover, trying to crawl to the bathroom. That sounds like an aggravating circumstance.
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, ATTORNEY: Indeed it is, under Wyoming law, Nancy. The law is very specific, and it says that, if you create a great risk of harm to two or more persons, that is an aggravating circumstance that would put you in a position to be executed under a capital case, yes.
GRACE: Carmen St. George, did you see the size of that bullet Morrone had? Did you see that?
CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I did see that, Nancy, and I would agree that it`s an aggravated circumstance. However, I would remind everybody that he has not been arrested. I would suggest that he would turn himself in.
GRACE: Yes, well, why hasn`t he been arrested, Carmen? Because he`s been on the run since Saturday morning.
ST. GEORGE: Nancy, but we do not know the facts about why he`s on the run. And one thing that was pointed out earlier in the show, although there was a harassing phone call, it was non-threatening in nature, so there`s nothing to suggest...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I got a question to you, Carmen. Why do you think she finally called the police to come to her house? Do you think that was the first phone call she ever got?
ST. GEORGE: Who knows, Nancy? Maybe she just wanted to get him off her back.
GRACE: Let`s find out. Let`s find out. Captain Jeff Schulz, was that the first harassing phone call she had gotten?
SCHULZ: That was the first time she`d reported anything like that to us.
GRACE: Do you know if it`s the first time she had gotten one?
SCHULZ: I am not aware whether she had phone calls in the past, but that was the first time she talked to us about it.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Marlene in California, hi, Marlene.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question is, I realize that they have taken the 5-year-old child into protective custody, and I realize that they`ve stated there`s been no report of domestic violence. But we all know that doesn`t mean there isn`t any. Have they interviewed the 5-year-old child to see if there`s been domestic violence that went unreported?
GRACE: Good question. Captain Schulz, has the child been interviewed?
SCHULZ: We`ve conducted interviews with all the members of the family. We did it the night of the shooting.
GRACE: So that`s a yes on the 5-year-old?
SCHULZ: That`s a yes that we`ve interviewed all the children.
GRACE: Is it just the 5-year-old in protective custody, or are the others in custody, as well?
SCHULZ: I wouldn`t use the term "protective custody." They`ve gone to a safe place, a place where he would not necessarily know where they were.
GRACE: Everyone, the lookout still going on for this man. His name, David Munis, 36, 6`4", 215 pounds, brown hair, hazel eyes. Tip line: 307- 637-6510. And, remember, all of the Cheyenne Police Department and many others looking for this man, their lives in danger, too.
Very quickly to "Case Alert." Parents of a 16-year-old North Carolina honors student and an all-star athlete actually file a lawsuit against the school district after their daughter marries her 40-year-old track coach. The twist? Her own parents signed a consent to let the 16-year-old marry the track coach. But now the Hagers blame the principal and the board of education for failing to protect their daughter, and they`re asking for at least $20,000.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An alleged video game addiction results in the near deaths of two Nevada babies left to fend for themselves while their parents played "Dungeons & Dragons." A toddler boy and his 11-month-old sister found starving inside their Reno home, a home in such disarray, dirty dishes, garbage everywhere, and cats that apparently missed the Kitty Litter. But police say 25-year-old Michael Straw and 23-year-old Iana Straw able to spend hours playing video games on a big screen plasma TV, but apparently have no time to feed and care for their own children.
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GRACE: Boy, that was euphemistic. Missed the Kitty Litter box? The little 11-month-old girl was so weak and dehydrated she couldn`t even lift her head. Her hair had to be shaved off her head because it was matted with cat urine. Now, I don`t know how that happened, since the baby couldn`t crawl or even move. She was so dehydrated she couldn`t even urinate or even cry out loud. And as far as neglecting the children, they were starving while the refrigerator was full, and the mother and father were perfectly nourished, with a huge plasma screen TV, thousands and thousands of dollars on video and computer equipment.
Out to "Reno Gazette-Journal`s" Jaclyn O`Malley. Jaclyn, I almost don`t want to hear it, but tell me the facts.
JACLYN O`MALLEY, REPORTER: Essentially in June, a neighbor called police and said that they were concerned because the baby was crying all the time. So when the officer checked it out, saw that the house was in disarray, lots of trash bags, the two children were in there, he told social workers that they needed to check it out. And when they did, they saw the conditions of the children, immediately took them to the hospital, where doctors determined that they were almost near death. They were so badly dehydrated, malnourished. It was just terrible, Nancy.
GRACE: What were the parents doing, Jaclyn, when the police came in, on the video games?
O`MALLEY: You know, it wasn`t clear what exactly the parents were doing, but authorities did learn that Michael Straw got an inheritance in September of about $50,000, and they spent it all on computers, a plasma screen television, and essentially were too busy playing "Dungeons & Dragons," namely, to care for their children.
GRACE: "Dungeons & Dragons," to Kimberly Young, Dr. Kimberly Young, the director for the Center for Internet Addiction Recovery, "Dungeons & Dragons," I just remember people from college running around campus with capes on. What is it? And how can you be so addicted to it you don`t feed your child?
KIMBERLY YOUNG, CENTER FOR INTERNET ADDICTION RECOVERY: Well, you know, I`ll be honest with you, Nancy, it is something from college days, but it has grown in to be a major industry where you have people that are interacting with each other in these fantasy lives and creating these personas of themselves that they find more appealing than they do in their real lives.
GRACE: So, long story short, to play the game, you take on a different identity?
YOUNG: That`s exactly it. I mean, you can go into these games, and let`s say you have a 16-year-old that feels sort of like a social misfit, but they can go online and be a great warrior and lead groups of people, and they get a lot of power and recognition from these kind of interactive games.
GRACE: OK. To Dr. Robi Ludwig, sitting here on the set with me, Robi, a psychotherapist and host of her own brand new show "Without Prejudice," on GSN Network, Dr. Robi, I`m hearing Dr. Kimberly Young, and I understand what she`s saying. I accept it. Take a look at these two. They`re not college-age. They are 23 and 25. She`s got a job.
LUDWIG: Yes.
GRACE: I don`t get it.
LUDWIG: Well, I know that there`s a lot of controversy, whether there is an Internet addiction, period. It`s not considered a diagnostic criteria. Having said that, I think what we have are two parents who are developmentally stunted and selfish and were somehow avoiding and escaping parenthood, which is a very difficult thing to do, especially if you are not emotionally strong enough or mature enough to deal with children. They were meeting their own needs, not their kids` needs.
GRACE: Well, they`re starving them to death, Robi. I don`t know if - - you`re really giving me a sugar-coated version of it, "not meeting their needs." The children were starving!
Jaclyn O`Malley with the "Reno Gazette-Journal," what condition were the children in?
O`MALLEY: Nancy, they were in terrible condition. As you were saying, the little baby could not even lift its head. It had no muscle development because it hadn`t been given any food. When the baby was born, she weighed 6 pounds and, 11 months later, was a mere 10. And when an officer first arrived, she said, "Well, she`s crying because she`s premature, and she`s little," but she`s fine. The little boy, he had an infection in his genitals that hadn`t been treated. He had difficulty walking. He was starved. And the police said that none of the children had their immunization shots, and the little baby at least had not been treated by a doctor since she was born.
GRACE: Susan Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: What`s next, the Tiddlywink defense? This is absolutely outrageous. What makes it so unbelievable is that the parents were fully fed, the parents were fully hydrated, although the kids were dehydrated. The parents didn`t have sores in their mouth or in other parts of the body. They were just fine.
And to make it even better, the house had food. They just chose not to feed their children. What, they didn`t want to cry over spilled milk so they never even opened the milk? This is crazy. These parents cannot take care of children; these children need to go to a safe place and not be returned.
GRACE: Dr. Morrone, this type of abuse, starvation, at such a young age -- he`s a toddler, she`s 11 months -- can they overcome it?
MORRONE: The permanent damage is something that you can`t measure until you get out and look at milestones, but you just can`t imagine how bad this is for development.
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GRACE: Fifty thousand dollars, blown like that on video games, computer equipment, plenty of food in the home while two infants starved to death. I want to go back out to Jaclyn O`Malley with the "Reno Gazette- Journal." You told me about the weight of the little girl. What about the little boy?
O`MALLEY: You know, Nancy, they never did say. But he, again, was severely starved and he, too, had such little muscle development, he had a lot of difficulty walking. And they said that he appeared developmentally disabled.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Teresa in Ohio. Hi, Teresa.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, love.
CALLER: I just wanted to know, did these parents ever have family members or friends come into their home and see the condition of the home or the children? And if they did, why didn`t they report this?
GRACE: What about it, Jaclyn?
O`MALLEY: You know, I don`t know, but both of these parents had MySpace.com pages, where Mrs. Straw talked about how she`s very busy trying to clean the house and cook and care for children. At one point, she wrote that she had enough, she`s too lazy, and she`s done with it.
GRACE: I believe her words were "f it," because it`s too much for her to play "Dungeons & Dragons" and take care of the kids. Yes, I saw that.
Let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Trista Moretti, 27, South Plainfield, New Jersey, killed, Iraq. Star athlete, county champion, earned nine varsity letters in field hockey and track, attended William Paterson University. Moretti lit up a room, always with a smile, laughing. A generous daughter, sister, friend, leaving behind parents, Judy and Fred, sister, Jennifer. Trista Moretti, American hero.
Thank you to our guest, but especially to you for inviting us into your homes. A reminder: Dr. Robi Ludwig`s show starts tomorrow night, 9:00 p.m. Eastern on GSN. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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