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Nancy Grace
Child Rape Charges Dropped for Lack of Interpreter
Aired July 23, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. He is charged with repeat child molestation on 6 and 1-year-old little girls, but tonight we learn a Maryland judge throws out the cases because the court itself took too long to find an interpreter for the alleged repeat child molester. PS, he may be a Liberian national, but he went to high school and college here in the U.S. in English. Judge Katherine Savage, you are in contempt!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man is accused of repeatedly molesting a 7- year-old girl. He will now walk free, no trial here, due to a technicality. It seems the court can`t find anyone who can translate his rare African language. Prosecutors are outraged. They say they were able to find three translators. (INAUDIBLE) that, they`re actually pretty sure this guy actually speaks English. He went to high school and college in Maryland. But just last week, a judge set him free on the grounds that his right to a fair and speedy trial had been violated because they were looking for those translators for so long. Well, now prosecutors can`t refile the charges. Their only option is to...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is not true. "The Washington Post" tried, and in one evening, they found five interpreters.
And also tonight: He begs and begs her not to drive home drunk after an all-day block party, literally trying to pry her hands off the wheel. She puts the pedal to the metal, speeding away. It took her three full blocks to realize she dragged her fiance to his death under her car-turned- killing-machine. Death by Nissan. Tonight, we wait for formal charges to be handed down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A New York man is dead after trying to stop his friend from driving drunk. Suffolk County police say 26-year-old Louis Wiederer was hanging onto his Jesenia Vega`s car Saturday night, begging her not to drive, when she took off. He fell under the car and was dragged for three blocks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was hanging somewhat like this here, I guess, reaching into the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was trying to stop her from driving, yelling, You`re going to get arrested. You`re going to get arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Door open. He was hanging onto the car, and she went speeding up the block. And she was definitely trying to throw him off. She was zigzagging all the way out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First, an alleged repeat child rapist walks free tonight all because a judge fails to find an interpreter. Judge Katherine Savage, you are in contempt!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man will not face sex abuse charges because it took too long to find an interpreter for him. He was accused of repeatedly molesting a 7-year-old girl, but a Maryland judge dismissed his case, saying the delays violated his right a speedy trial. Now, the man`s from Liberia. He speaks a tribal language spoken only by about 100,000 people in West Africa. But prosecutors pointed out he attended high school in the U.S. He spoke English to detectives investigating the case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been three years since charges were filed against Mahamu Kanneh for child rape, three years a 7-year-old girl and her family were waiting for their day in court. Now, thanks to judge Katherine D. Savage, Kanneh is free, and that family`s day in court may never come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to go straight out to Jean Casarez, Court TV news correspondent. What happened? This guy goes to high school and college here in the U.S. He speaks to detectives in English. It`s my understanding from what I`ve read in the court documents the court is the judge.
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: That`s right.
GRACE: That`s what we`re talking about. And she can`t find an interpreter, and so she throws out the state`s case?
CASAREZ: It was a psychiatrist that originally determined that this man needed an interpreter because he is from Liberia and his language is Vai, which is a very remote dialect. And so the court tried to get an interpreter. And they actually found three of them. The first one emotionally couldn`t handle the charges because they are rape charges. The second one wasn`t a valid interpreter. She couldn`t do it. The third one had to have...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Right there. Who said she wasn`t a valid -- the second one was not a valid interpreter?
CASAREZ: Well...
GRACE: She was qualified. Who would know that she was not speaking correct Liberian, other than the defendant? Did he complain about the second one?
CASAREZ: Well, that`s a good point. From the court documents...
GRACE: Please!
CASAREZ: ... that I`ve read, she went into court. There was a hearing, and she could not validly do her job.
GRACE: OK.
CASAREZ: That is what the court determined.
GRACE: OK. What about the third one?
CASAREZ: The third one came along, had to have a hospital stay. So then there was a fourth one that they found. And Nancy, according to the court documents I found, just last week, on July 17, interpreter sworn. So she was there. That was the very same day the charges were dismissed, based on the constitutional right to a speedy trial.
GRACE: OK, let me get something straight, Jean. Isn`t it true that at one juncture, the defendant waived a right to a speedy trial?
CASAREZ: Yes, did he. Early on.
GRACE: OK, second. Second. Isn`t it true he was out on a $10,000 bond, which is $1,000 cash?
CASAREZ: That is right, after one night in jail.
GRACE: OK. And what are the allegations as to the offenses on the 6- year-old girl and the 1-and-a-half-year-old little girl? What are the actual charges on them?
CASAREZ: There are nine counts altogether. And they are second degree rape, one count, 20 years maximum. Sexual abuse of a minor child, two counts. 25 years maximum. Second degree sexual offense, two counts, 20 years maximum. Third degree sexual offense, three counts, 10 years maximum. And a course of continuing conduct, sexual conduct, maximum 30 years, one count. And this was a course of conduct over at least one year.
GRACE: Out to Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, victims` rights advocate. Wendy, isn`t it true that it is alleged that this guy, this Liberian national here, living off the fat of the land here in Maryland, told the little 7-year-old girl -- this is the allegation -- that he would never let her out of the apartment if she did not have full-blown sex with him?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, yes. And guess what language he said that to her in, Nancy? It doesn`t have anything to do with Liberia. This, to me, is going to turn out to be a big fat fraud on the court. And I know you`ve seen it. I certainly have seen it. Defense attorneys, along with their clients, come up with a miraculous problem speaking English on the day of the indictment. Didn`t have a problem before that, but all of a sudden, they can`t understand or speak a word of it. Costs the taxpayers a fortune!
And let me tell you what the biggest problem here is. The way it was determined that this guy didn`t speak English, a psychiatrist? When are psychiatrists linguists? How exactly did she figure out that this guy didn`t speak...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... went to college...
MURPHY: Went to college, went to high school...
GRACE: ... in the U.S.
MURPHY: ... grew up in Guyana -- grew up in Guyana for most of his early childhood. Guess what language they speak in Guyana? English!
How does a psychiatrist who doesn`t speak in Liberian dialect know whether he doesn`t speak or does speak English? Are you kidding me? This is a fraud on the court. It happens across the country. It`s a way of delaying and ratcheting up the cost of criminal cases. It is a fraud.
And I`m telling you something. That appellate court is going to return this case to the trial court, insist that his friends, his co- workers, the people he went to college with, take the stand, testify under oath that this guy speaks English.
And then I want a tax refund! The people in Maryland deserve a tax refund for the cost of his public defender, the fraud on the people, the waste of the money spent on the three interpreters who have been fired.
GRACE: Well, here`s another thing. Here`s another thing that has me so upset. Out to you, Mike Brooks. And you`ve been there, Mike. You have made arrests in cases like this, where there`s been a child rape or child molestation. These two little girls are in foster care. They have nobody taking up for them. They have nobody. They don`t have a mother. They don`t have a father. They don`t have grandparents. They have nothing. They have the state. And they have a judge. That`s all they`ve got. And this judge, Judge Katherine D. Savage, says, This is the hardest decision I`ve ever had to make. If she was so worried about it, why didn`t she find an interpreter?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Exactly, Nancy. She let those two victims down. She`s there to protect the victim, period. And the other thing, Nancy, Montgomery County, Maryland...
GRACE: Worried? How worried? She spent three years!
BROOKS: Three years!
GRACE: "The Washington Post" ran an article today that said in one day, they found five Liberian interpreters that speak Vai.
BROOKS: And Nancy, Montgomery County is 16th Street, with the Liberian embassy on it...
GRACE: Oh, good God in heaven!
BROOKS: ... runs right into Montgomery County. You know, I hold her in contempt, Nancy. I also hold the court administrator in contempt, also, for letting this happen. You know, they`re the ones who are supposed to find the trained and certified interpreters. All they had do is get in the car and drive right down 16th Street, knock on the embassy. I`m sure the embassy would have been happy to help find an interpreter in this case.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man will not face sex abuse charges because it took too long to find an interpreter for him. He was accused of repeatedly molesting a 7-year-old girl, but a Maryland judge dismissed his case, saying the delays violated his right to a speedy trial. Now, the man`s from Liberia. He speaks a tribal language spoken only by about 100,000 people in West Africa. But prosecutors pointed out he attended high school in the U.S. He spoke English to detectives investigating the case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Montgomery County`s top prosecutor said today he`s going to fight a judge`s decision to dismiss rape charges against 23- year-old Mahamu Kanneh because the court couldn`t find a suitable translator in time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe that that decision to dismiss these charges was improper. We therefore have requested that an appeal be taken to reverse the court`s order and to set this matter back in for trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, I want to see a picture of Judge Katherine D. Savage, the Maryland -- there she is -- Maryland County circuit court. It`s amazing to me -- this case has been pending for three years. This guy has not been behind bars. He`s out making a living, doing whatever he wants to do on $10,000 bond. That means he puts up about $1,000 and walks free. This is on two little girls, 1-and-a-half years old and 6 years old -- full-blown sex with a 6-year-old little girl, repeatedly.
She says she`s been worried? If she was so worried, why didn`t she take it upon her own responsibility to find an interpreter?
I want to go out to Lavinia Masters, rape victim and sex assault advocate. These little girls are going to suffer the rest of their lives. I`ve dealt with plenty of child molestation victims and adult rape victims.
LAVINIA MASTERS, RAPE VICTIM AND SEX ASSAULT ADVOCATE: Yes.
GRACE: They fight with this and struggle with this the rest of their lives.
MASTERS: Yes, they do. Yes, they do. And my heart goes out to these girls. They are double victimized here not only by the accuser (SIC), but by the court system as well. And when I heard the facts of this case, it was devastating to me and I know to those little girls because the things that they have to go through, as well as this accuser (SIC) not being able to be convicted, and he gets to walk around free, eventually not being registered as a sex offender. So is there an opportunity for him to victimize other little girls in the same instance?
GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question. To Dr. Robi Ludwig. You all know Robi, psychotherapist and host of her own show now, "Without Prejudice," on GSN. Dr. Robi, first of all, out of all the type of cases I ever tried -- you know, you can rehab a dope addict. You can rehab somebody that`s addicted to alcohol.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right.
GRACE: Pedophiles, sex offenders -- they will repeat offend. They will. Period. Do I like it? No. Is it the truth? Yes. This guy has been cut free on these charges, thanks to Judge Katherine D. Savage. What is the likelihood he will reoffend?
LUDWIG: I`d say 100 percent. I mean, there`s no doubt in my mind he`ll reoffend. I don`t understand what was going on in this judge`s mind, unless she was so overburdened by cases that she let her laziness sink it All you need to do is bring in one of his teachers and ask how well versed he is in the English language. I mean it`s just -- it`s so easy.
GRACE: I would love to get a look at his grades in high school and college, when he attended here in the U.S.
Out to the lines. Ted in Maryland. Hi, Ted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, Ted. Thank you for watching. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, I just want to tell you I live in Montgomery County, where this is going on.
GRACE: Whoa!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I...
GRACE: Hide under your bed because the judge is not protecting you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. It`s unbelievable. But the question I have is, if they know that this guy speaks English -- he obviously has a public defender. How does he communicate with the public defender? I`m sure she doesn`t speak his language.
GRACE: Excellent question. Out to Jean Casarez. You know, he`s got to be having dealings with an American attorney.
CASAREZ: Right.
GRACE: It`s not my understanding that he has a Liberian attorney.
CASAREZ: That`s right. And that`s the whole issue, right, understanding the charges, being able to assist his attorney. That`s one constitutional issue here. Well, Nancy, what we do know is that when he made his first statements to detectives after he was arrested, that he made that statement to them in English.
GRACE: Oh! It only gets worse. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, veteran trial lawyer in New York and New Jersey, Jason Oshins. Also with us out of Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, Allison Gilman.
Jason Oshins, refresh or brush up on right to a speedy trial. Under our Constitution, it says you have a right to a speedy trial. In this country, you don`t get locked up, we throw away the key and we wait 10 years to try you. If you file a motion, a demand for speedy trial -- when I would get them as a prosecutor, that case would go to number one on the trial calendar. You want a speedy trial? Fine. You`ll get it. You`ll be number one on the trial calendar.
These people withdrew their right to a speedy trial. And once that is done, they have destroyed that right.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, that right -- well, to some degree, you`re accurate, and to some degree you`re not. Yes, you certainly can waive your right to a speedy trial. That doesn`t take away the constitutional protection for the state, federal government -- everyone has a right as a prosecutor, and you know that, you`ve got to bring that case forward. Now, notwithstanding the fact that they waived speedy trial for procedural issues, it still doesn`t take away the state`s responsibility to push that forward. And obviously, there must have been a hearing on that.
GRACE: The state did push it forward. The court did not find an interpreter.
OSHINS: Well, but that doesn`t -- that`s still the responsibility of the prosecutor. That`s still the state`s responsibility.
GRACE: They showed up to court that day with an interpreter. This judge...
OSHINS: Well, by that time, obviously...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Are you going to tell me you`ve never tried a case that was three years old? Don`t lie to me, Jason Oshins!
OSHINS: Nancy -- Nancy, that`s not -- but that`s on consent.
GRACE: No, you tell me the truth!
OSHINS: That is on consent...
GRACE: Tell me! Tell me!
OSHINS: That`s on -- that`s on...
GRACE: Have you?
OSHINS: Nancy, that`s on my consent.
GRACE: So yes, you have.
OSHINS: That`s on consent of the defense attorney.
GRACE: Can you not say, Yes? Can you not say, Yes, I`ve tried a 3- year-old case?
OSHINS: Nancy, there are reasons that you take your time...
GRACE: I didn`t hear, Yes, No.
OSHINS: ... as a defense attorney. Doesn`t take away the prosecution`s...
GRACE: You`re not going...
OSHINS: ... right to push the case forward.
GRACE: ... to answer, are you. OK. Fine. Allison Gilman, you have ever tried a case three years old?
ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy, I...
GRACE: You`re darn right you have!
GILMAN: Yes, I have.
GRACE: Every trial lawyer has. I`ve had to retry a case that was 14 years old. All I had was one X-ray, one X-ray and a hat that said "Kiss my Bass."
OSHINS: But Nancy, if...
GRACE: And I had to make a murder case out of that.
OSHINS: Nancy, if the crime...
GRACE: Uh-uh! Uh-uh! You had your chance!
Allison...
GILMAN: Yes.
GRACE: ... explain this. He is right. You have the statutory or the state code, right to a speedy trial, which they waived. Then the judge can swoop in, if they want to, and say, You know, I`m concerned about the constitutional right to a speedy trial. This is totally uncalled for. Allison, give me your best shot.
GILMAN: Nancy, this is a perfect example of a judge`s frustration that has been pushed beyond any limit. We don`t know what went on in that courtroom, how many times she was promised by court administration that the right interpreter would be there, how many times she reset that case. At some point, she said, Enough is enough, and I`m ending this right now. Whether it was the right or the wrong thing to do, she`s setting an example for...
GRACE: Well, that`s a heck of a note! I don`t care if it`s right or wrong, I`m just going to do it? Jean Casarez, hadn`t she just been assigned this case?
CASAREZ: She was. She was not the original judge on this case. And as you look at the docket entries -- and many say this doesn`t matter, but the defense is the one that stalled many of the hearings. They asked for continuances. They originally asked for a continuance so they could do their own DNA testing. But the U.S. Supreme Court has looked at issues -- why is the case dragging on? Is it intentional on the part of the prosecution, or is there a valid reason? And the prosecution is saying here there was a very valid reason. We were trying to find an interpreter to give him his due constitutional rights.
GRACE: Out to Debbie in Tennessee. Hi, Debbie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With this judge dropping these charges and throwing everything out, can he be tried again, or will that be double jeopardy?
GRACE: She! She! Oh -- oh...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said...
GRACE: The judge is a she, defendant is a he, a Liberian he. The prosecution is appealing, Debbie in Tennessee, and I have great hope that these charges are going to be reinstated. If not, it`s with prejudice, and it cannot be retried.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kanneh was charged with nine counts of rape and child sexual abuse involving two female relatives, one 7 years old, the other only a year-and-a-half. He allegedly abused them repeatedly over the course of a year, between September 2003 and August 2004, while living in this Gaithersburg apartment. The older girl lived in this townhouse just a block or so away. But Kanneh, who`s from Liberia, speaks a rare dialect known as Vai, and the court could not find a translator in time. So three years later, the case was dismissed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: He does not speak a rare Liberian dialect of Vai! He also speaks English! Mike Brooks, didn`t he take his Miranda in English and sign everything in English? I mean, my God, the man went to college here! He speaks English!
BROOKS: It`s mind-boggling to me, Nancy. You know, at the FBI, we used to have Miranda warnings in Arabic, Farsi, but you know, we -- not Vai. So I know that he took out his Miranda warnings and detectives talked to him, they interviewed him, and they built a case against him by his statements that he made in English.
GRACE: And do you think he told the little girl, Wendy Murphy, You can`t leave the apartment unless you have sex with me, in Vai?
MURPHY: Oh! Oh, no! I think that`s the big Vai lie of this case, Nancy. He commanded her to perform certain sex acts in English. Guess what else he did? He spoke to reporters!
GRACE: OK (INAUDIBLE) out that you just said. Wendy is being a little euphemistic. Not only did he have full-blown sex with a 6-year-old child, he had sodomy sex with a 6-year-old child. Continue, Wendy.
MURPHY: Well...
GRACE: According to the allegations.
MURPHY: You know, Nancy, just the idea that he`s walking around free is just outrageous. It`s so unconscionable. But -- because the judge did have better options, as you keep pointing out. But the point is, he also spoke to reporters in English, saying how happy he was with what the judge did! He did that today. He did that yesterday. Not even a Liberian accent, Nancy!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) the public affairs consulate for the Liberian embassy. He says he is not familiar with Kanneh`s case, though courts have asked the embassy in the past to help them find interpreters. Abu says finding one can be difficult because the embassy cannot force anyone to be an interpreter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Charges totally dropped against a Liberian national living here in the U.S. He went to high school and college in America, speaks English. Long story short, Montgomery County circuit court judge Katherine D. Savage throws out a multi-count child molestation charge against Mahamu Kanneh, age 23, for full-blown sex with a 7-year-old girl, 6-year-old girl and 1-year-old girl because she said she could not find an interpreter. "The Washington Post" wrote an article today that says in one day, they found five, I believe it was five Vai interpreters.
Out to the lines. Lou in New York. Hi, Lou.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good evening, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First off, I`d love to say that what should be done to this guy, that anybody who hurts women or children -- well...
GRACE: I think where you`re going. Please don`t say it on the air. OK, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t -- I don`t -- I`m not going to.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is, for these poor parents and children, is it at all possible for them to have a civil suit against this judge?
GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Oshins?
OSHINS: ... she`s a judge for this. There`s nothing that she`s done that`s egregious or...
GRACE: Well, what about the defendant?
OSHINS: Can the defendant sue?
GRACE: No, can they sue the defendant?
OSHINS: If the defendant had means and they thought they could get a civil judgment against him, easier burden than in -- much easier burden.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MCCARTHY, STATE`S ATTORNEY, MARYLAND: On July the 17th, a circuit court judge for Montgomery County granted a motion to dismiss a criminal case against Mahamu Kanneh on the basis of a speedy trial violation. Mr. Kanneh had been charged in an indictment returned by the grand jury for Montgomery County with nine criminal charges. All of those charges related to the sexual abuse of a minor child.
We believe that that decision to dismiss these charges was improper. We, therefore, after consultation with the attorney general`s office for the state of Maryland, have requested that an appeal be taken to reverse the court`s order and to set this matter back in for trial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors had argued Kanneh didn`t even need a translator since he went to high school here and attended Montgomery Community College. Kanneh now lives in this apartment building in Rockville, mere blocks from the courthouse. A relative who answered the door said he was at work and declined comment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, we called the home, too, and whoever answered spoke fluent English. They said, "F you," and there was not a hint of an accent from Liberia. That first speaker you just heard was John McCarthy. He is the state`s attorney there in Maryland. Thank God for McCarthy; he`s not going to let this rest. He`s filing an appeal, hopefully to try this guy, which leads me to my question
To medical examiner in Michigan, Madison Heights, Michigan, Dr. Daniel Spitz, if the case comes back down to trial, how long can we expect physical evidence to exist on these two little girls? One was 1 1/2 years; one was 6 years old when the molestation started. Now, the evidence changes over time. And can the testifying doctor rely on past reports that happened at the time of the incident?
DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, clearly, the children who sustained physical injuries, those injuries are going to be gone at this point. But I would hope that these children were evaluated in an emergency department, that photographs were taken, that physical evidence was detected. Those injuries should be documented, and the evidence that`s collected on the rape kit, that evidence should last really forever and can always be tested.
GRACE: And also, though, when you have a little child, age 1 1/2, or the other child, age 6, a physical exam, a pelvic exam can clearly see if they have had sex before.
SPITZ: It could. There`s no question that an adult male having sex with a child, age 7, 6, and certainly age 1 is going to cause physical injuries. The problem is, those physical injuries will heal, but the emotional injuries may be lifelong.
GRACE: Well, if the child loses her hymen, that`s forever. I mean, that`s not going to heal. You always have that piece of evidence. But the reality is very often, Doctor, have you ever tried, of course, testified in a case, that`s three years old?
SPITZ: I have many times.
GRACE: Me, too. I`ve tried plenty of cases with the crowded dockets we had in inner-city Atlanta, are you kidding? A lot of cases, especially bigger murder cases that take a long time to put together, that`s not uncommon, not uncommon at all. By the time the person is arrested, you have a bond hearing. They make bond. There`s a formal indictment. There`s a discovery phase that can last six to eight months. There`s pretrial hearings. Next thing you know, you`re at 2, 2 1/2 years before you really get to try a case.
Out to the lines, Katie in Pennsylvania, hi, Katie.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I`m wondering, since he`s speaking to reporters in English now, fine, can they charge him with perjury?
GRACE: Ooh, that`s an excellent question. Out to Allison Gilman and Jason Oshins, let`s bring in also former prosecutor Wendy Murphy. What about it, Allison?
ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, he hasn`t necessarily given a statement under oath saying that he doesn`t understand. This is what the defense is claiming, and the judge is the one that`s saying, "He needs an interpreter. I`m relying on the doctor who`s telling me he needs this, and we need to get him one."
GRACE: Jason?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Just because you can speak English or just because you`ve taken classes, at the end of the day it`s up to the judge to determine whether or not the proficiency is such that you`re going to understand legal proceedings that are going to affect your life.
GRACE: You know, I just wonder, Randy, did he speak to the little girl in Vai? That is the biggest crock. And no offense to you two defense attorneys. You`re veterans in the courtroom. I know that. But the guy spoke, according to Mike Brooks, in his Miranda warnings, he spoke to detectives in English.
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: He`s never spoken Vai at all, Nancy, as far as we know. The caller`s point is important, though. Can I just say something? What kind of judge lets this happen without at least putting the guy under oath, not to mention all his friends and college colleagues and so forth? How do you get to this stage without really finding out whether the guy is a big, fat fraud, which we know happens every day in courtrooms across this country? Defense attorneys and their clients lying about the fact that they can`t speak English, wasting tax dollars, delaying trials until all the witnesses drop dead. This is a systemic fraud, and it is a problem across the country.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Wendy, what else can you tell me about the facts in this case?
MURPHY: Well, the only thing I think we haven`t really talked much about, Nancy, is something interesting that happened recently, which is that apparently some probation officers showed up at his house because they wanted to see what he was doing, if he was obeying the pretrial condition that he not be near little children. And not only were there children there, but apparently he was having a little friend over, and it was an adult sex offender, right there in his house. And they asked him about it, and his lawyer apparently said, "Well, you know, he didn`t really know about this guy being there, because when he comes home, he just goes right to his bedroom."
GRACE: Oh, that`s comforting to know that the alleged child molester spends all his time in his bedroom. Jean Casarez, what else can you tell me about the legal proceedings? How is it going to play out? What happens next?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, they`re going to file their appeal, and they will see if the appellate court will hear their case. You know, Nancy, your producers got almost the entire case file, and I`ve been pouring over it.
And one thing that is very concerning, first of all, this little girl, 6 to 7 years old, as you`re talking about, she is now a ward of the state in Massachusetts. And according to some of the legal documents, she needed to come back into the Maryland jurisdiction for a hearing. And it was said, well, she doesn`t have any family members at all that she can stay with, so they were trying to find housing for her or a hotel.
And according to the pretrial services division here, it says that a caseworker went to the home of Mahamu Kanneh and that there was his father, all right, his father, and it says that his father is a sex offender associated with the same victims.
GRACE: You know, it just gets worse and worse. To Dr. Robi Ludwig, I`m imagining how these little girls are going to grow up as they go through adolescence. They don`t have a mom; I don`t know where she is. As they try to get through high school, as they turn into young ladies, what kind of lifelong effects will something like this have?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: And I work with many patient who are adults in this situation. Very often, they blame themselves. They feel that there is something that they could have done, that they`re responsible in some way.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... a 7-year-old try to fight back and try to refuse to have sex with this adult Liberian male?
LUDWIG: Good for her. What a courageous girl. But very often they find themselves in a pattern of sexualized victimization or they sexualize all of their relationships, because that`s all they know, and they suffer from a rape trauma syndrome, which is very similar to post-traumatic stress. So it`s very, very difficult and an ongoing battle. Hopefully they can get into treatment and find a supportive family where they can get support, the support they need. And it kills me to think that they don`t have anybody to turn to.
GRACE: Not even a mother. To Charles in North Carolina, hi, Charles.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. What is the time limit for a constitutional speedy trial?
GRACE: Excellent question. The way the state one works, Charles, it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. When I say state, I`m talking about the statutory, the law, the code, not the Constitution.
In most jurisdictions, you have the period of the grand jury proceedings. That`s usually three to four months, and then two more periods. So you`re looking at about nine months. You`ve got to try the case within nine months. If you don`t try it within those nine months, the case is automatically dismissed, if they have filed a demand for speedy trial. That`s why, when I would get one, I would put it straight at the top of the trial calendar. Now, you`ve got the constitutional right to a speedy trial. And with that, it varies.
Back out to you, Wendy Murphy, I`ve seen cases 7 years old being tried.
MURPHY: Yes. I mean, look, Nancy, let`s talk about the irony of defendants having speedy trial rights when you and I know that the guilty ones actually want the slowest damn trial they can get, because they`re hoping that witnesses disappear and the evidence goes away before the trial starts up. So it`s ironic.
But, look, the answer to the question includes that the law allows tolling provisions. In other words, the speedy trial right, whether constitutional or statutory, is never absolute. There are exceptions. If the court can`t get to it for one reason or another, you get a tolling, a stopping of the clock. That`s absolutely fair game, and it didn`t happen enough in this case.
GRACE: And on many of the occasions when there were delays in this case, it was because the defense requested more time. Everybody, we`ll all be right back. And when we do, a 27-year-old young woman drags her boyfriend to his death after he begs her, "Don`t drive drunk."
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the door open, he was hanging onto the car. And she went speeding up the block, and she was definitely trying to throw him off. She was zigzagging all the way out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He apparently fell off by that intersection behind me. That`s where the skid marks and the trail of blood begin. They continue down the road and end by that intersection with the tree on the corner.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suffolk police say the person under the car, 26- year-old Louis Wiederer from Westbury was killed.
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GRACE: He begs her not to drive drunk. It took her three blocks to realize her fiance was stuck on the car and she had run him down, according to local police. Out to the reporter with the "New York Post," Selim Algar is with us. What happened?
SELIM ALGAR, "NEW YORK POST": Well, essentially, Nancy, things began at a block party on a residential block in Suffolk County. The two people involved were at the party. There was plenty of drinking going on, but it was sort of a family-oriented block party. And at some point, there was an altercation between the two.
It`s a little hard to disentangle it, but at some point it appears that Jesenia Vega wants to leave the party, and her boyfriend, Mr. Wiederer, tries to prevent her, according to witnesses and police, because she`s intoxicated, visibly intoxicated. So he does what he can, it appears, to prevent her from doing so. He tries to wrest the keys from her. At one point, according to witnesses, he tries to yank her out of the car physically.
But at some point, she floors it, essentially, and he makes an attempt to hold onto it, and he`s ultimately unsuccessful. He falls and is caught underneath the car. She drags him for several blocks and at one point even stops at a stop sign and continues on until a neighbor, or a resident of the street, sees what`s happening, bangs on her window. She finally comes to a halt. She exits, looks underneath the vehicle, and realizes what`s transpired.
GRACE: How can you be so drunk, Sheryl McCollum, you don`t know your fiance is stuck on the car for three blocks?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, FORMER DIRECTOR OF MADD: Nancy, this case is horrifying. You`ve got a woman who should be planning her wedding, and now they`re all planning a funeral, and possibly her defense. She is, you know (INAUDIBLE) where she`s swerving trying to shake him loose from the car. He`s screaming for her to please don`t drive, you`re going to get arrested. He`s trying to stop her from going to jail, and that`s exactly where she`s going, and that`s exactly where she needs to be.
GRACE: Take a look at many of the DUI vehicular homicide victims in this country. We call their families to ask, could we show their pictures in memory of them? Many of them broke down in tears that their child, their loved one would be remembered. All of these are victims of drunk drivers.
Joining me, a special guest, Jay Steiner, he witnessed the accident. He even tried to administer first aid to the victim. Mr. Steiner, thank you for being with us. What did you witness?
JAY STEINER, WITNESS TO ACCIDENT: Well, I was across the street at my neighbor`s house, because her dog got loose, and I was trying to return her dog to her. I heard a loud, screeching sound. And when I looked down Tree Road, right where Garden was, I could see a car came around, and the tires were smoking white. The whole back of the car was enveloped in white. And as they came up the Tree Road past me, I saw somebody hanging onto the car outside the vehicle.
GRACE: And was that outside the driver`s window? Or where?
STEINER: Yes. He was hanging on the driver`s side to the driver`s window. The window was all the way down. He was...
GRACE: How could she not see him, Jay?
STEINER: Oh, she saw him. She had to see him.
GRACE: Now, did you witness some type of an altercation, as well?
STEINER: No, I wasn`t anywhere near the party at the time, and I didn`t hear anything about that until after the event. I just saw a car coming down fast with somebody hanging onto the outside. I thought to myself, "Oh, my God, this is going to be bad."
GRACE: You know, another -- when you went down and you tried to administer first aid to the victim, did the defendant say anything?
STEINER: Yes. I was standing there, and I was rather angry because, you know, they were speeding up and down the block at a very high rate of speed, I would have guessed it about 50 to 60 miles an hour.
GRACE: In a residential neighborhood.
STEINER: Yes, but then I heard thump, thump, two thumps. And I said to myself, "Oh, my God, he lost his grip." And that`s when we headed up the street, you know, at a pretty good clip...
GRACE: So what did she say?
STEINER: Well, when I got up to the scene, the car was stopped in the middle of the road. And I went over to her to see if she was injured. I asked her, "Are you hurt? Are you hurt?" And she said, "No." And then she said, "Oh, my God, don`t tell me I just killed my fiance." I said, "Fiance where?" She pointed to the car. At that point, I turned around and looked at the car, and I saw his leg sticking out from under the car.
GRACE: This is high school yearbook photo of the victim, Louis Wiederer, from "Newsday." I want to go out to Mike Brooks. Mike, she was administered a blood alcohol test right there on the scene. How reliable is a field blood alcohol test, and how does it work?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Well, much likely she was giving a breathalyzer test or an RBT, a roadside breathalyzer test. They`re pretty reliable, Nancy. What they`ll do, again, the procedure is to go into the station and then administer another one to see exactly what your blood alcohol content is.
GRACE: You mean, with the blood as opposed to a breathalyzer?
BROOKS: Yes, and much likely they took blood from her, and that`s why it takes time to get it back. But they`ll administer the second test to see if she is peaked or to see exactly what -- because, I tell you, you can administer one, and 30 minutes later you can administer another one, and many times it will be higher than the first one.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Daniel Spitz, do you think he died instantly? I mean, he was hanging onto the car for some time.
SPITZ: No, unfortunately he probably didn`t die instantly, which certainly raises the likelihood of serious pain and suffering along the way. As his body is being dragged along the road surface, there`s all kinds of injuries that are going to be inflicted. And then when he loses grip and falls to the ground and you sustain head injuries and other kinds of injuries, so, unfortunately, there was a variety of injury along this three blocks with, ultimately, probably head injuries resulting in his death.
GRACE: Jean Casarez with Court TV, Jean, right now she has misdemeanor charges. What do you expect?
CASAREZ: That`s right, misdemeanor DWI. Well, prosecutors have said that they are going to upgrade those charges shortly, and at the very least this is a reckless crime, that she knew or should have known exactly what could happen.
GRACE: He was hanging onto the side of the car, Jean!
CASAREZ: That is right, for his dear life.
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GRACE: He begs her not to drive drunk. Bottom line, she went anyway, pedal to the metal, and dragged her fiance for blocks, killing him.
Out to the lines, Heather in Pennsylvania. Hi, Heather.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
CALLER: Good. My sister and I, Lisa, just want to thank you so much for bringing inadequacies to the legal system upfront.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: But the question we had tonight was, is there anybody else that`s going to be implicated in this, maybe people who were serving the alcohol?
GRACE: Good question. So far, Selim Algar is with us, with "The New York Post." Is there any suggestion that anyone else is going to be held liable?
ALGAR: Well, it`s probably doubtful. It was a block party, but they were at one particular house. It was an acquaintance of Mr. Wiederer`s through work. They were steadfastly not commenting on the case yesterday.
GRACE: Jason, possibility of including, corralling somebody else in on these charges?
OSHINS: Sure, you could. Obviously, in something that`s as widespread as this, you can. You can after the...
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GRACE: You could. You could sue the beer distributor, too. But will they?
OSHINS: I don`t know, Nancy. That`s a good question for the prosecutor to go after. It could be a wide-ranging effect that he grasps everyone into it.
GRACE: Let`s stop everyone to remember Army Corporal Michelle Ring, 24, Martin, Tennessee, killed, Iraq. First tour, loved the military, outdoors, four-wheeling, off-roading, camping and hunting. Kept in touch with family by e-mail and MySpace, a single parent, Ring leaves behind two sons, 7-year-old Mark, 5-year-old Brandon, parents John and Shirley, sisters, Karen and Marilyn, best friend, Crystal, Michelle Ring, American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests, but most of all to you for being with us. A special good night from friends of the show, Zack and Donna. Aren`t they beautiful? See you guys tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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