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Two News Helicopters Collide in Mid-Air

Aired July 28, 2007 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, for the first time, a TV news pilot's breathless reaction as he watches four of his colleagues die. For legal reasons, we can't show it to you here, but we will in a few minutes. Here's one we can show you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When they came down, it was like slow motion. I couldn't find anybody. I couldn't find anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: In Dayton, Ohio, they came to watch an air show. They left in tears after witnessing a tragic stunt. We'll show you what they saw.

Hillary Clinton getting told by Obama and now by this woman, a Hillary heckler.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: And then let's make sure that...

(BOOING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: This one gets loud. We'll tell you why.

And talk about loud. The blank stare, the nonsensical explanations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What keeps you in the job, Mr. Attorney General?

ALBERTO GONZALES, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: That's a very good question, Senator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Somebody's lying and everyone seems to see it. Everybody, that is, except - it's our hot talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He does not want to speak to anybody right now. His lawyer has advised him to ask you to leave the premises. Please leave the premises, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he is not. You can leave now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Looking for the pedophiles who may be looking for your children. Get this, by pretending to date you. Angry enough yet, ladies? Gentlemen?

Are these children making the cut, as in cut out? And why? We'll tell you. All of this from the CNN NEWSROOM.

And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the CNN NEWSROOM. Tonight, Hillary versus the heckler, a new hot talk on the debate and the embattled attorney general.

But first, we've been getting and are expecting to get some amazing pictures of some tragic crashes all over the country. Let's go first to Ohio. This is the Dayton Air Show, where a loop de loop stunt suddenly went terribly wrong. The pilot was killed when his plane crashed and then burst into flames.

Down south in Mississippi, a medical helicopter crashes just after take-off from a hospital. One medical worker was hurt, but everyone else, including the patient being air lifted, somehow avoided injury.

And then there's this. Those two TV news helicopters that collided in Phoenix. Right now, investigators are on the scene. They're trying to figure out what happened and how to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again.

We want to begin, though, not just with the accident itself, but with the people affected by it, including one pilot. As you hear his voice, you're going to detect almost a Hindenburg-like quality to it as you listen to this. You kind of feel for him, for his humanity, for his confusion. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, my God. Channel 15 and Channel 3 just had a mid-air collision. They're in the park. Oh, oh, man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: The horror in his voice really tells the story, the pain of watching colleagues die. He is a chopper pilot for TV station a KSAZ, a lucky one, one who survived but seems tortured by what he saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's been a collision over here at the park. Two helicopters. Two helicopters down. Oh, my God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Five news choppers were tracking this police chase over Phoenix's crowded skies. They described the stolen car, the car getting ditched, the suspect getting out. Then on live TV, the story suddenly changes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Oh, oh, Scott, we're going to have to turn back around and get away from this. We do have two helicopters down during this crash.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Two news helicopters crash into each other. They fall about 500 feet into a city park and explode into flames. Witnesses say one seemed to get sucked in by the other.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID WILSON, WITNESS: I heard like a load gunshot. And then about two seconds after that, there was real loud like bang, and then just two helicopters coming straight down, falling about three different areas, burst into flame. And debris all over the place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: There was a pilot and a photographer on board each helicopter. All four were killed. Jim Cox and Scott Bauerbeck worked for KTVK. Craig Smith and Rick Krolack worked for KNXV. On the ground, no one was killed, though it was raining helicopter parts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE CHEALANDER, NTSB: A rotor blade came off of one of it helicopters and it hit a truck. It was a delivery truck. And it hit the front windshield of the truck just in front of the driver, but then embedded itself in the asphalt.

SANCHEZ: Piece after piece fell into the pond in the city park. Investigators are draining it, looking for clues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: You notice what happened. Lost in all of this was what happened to the suspect in the car chase itself. It suddenly became a non story. Well, not any more. We've done some digging. Police eventually caught him. Today, he was arraigned on charges of theft, assault, and resisting arrest. Police are even now exploring, although this might be a tough sell, whether he can somehow be held responsible for the helicopter crash itself. We've been getting a lot of video, some really amazing I-reports from our viewers who were at a Dayton air show today. This one really grabbed our attention. I mean, from a bevy or reports that we've been getting, this is the one that probably seems the -- well, the wildest.

Take a look at this. You see the plane. It's right there. It starts to do the stunt. Now this is what he's supposedly is to do. But then he's been able to -- he's supposed to be able to pull out of this thing. But now, keep watching. Now we just got this about an hour ago. And we've turned it around for you.

That's where he hits the ground to really the amazement of some of the spectators who are there on the ground, who thought they were just going to be watching this air show. That was caught by I- reporter Steven Elliott, by the way. He had a digital camera with him at the time.

Now let's talk politics and the debate and the brouhaha that followed. No ha ha in this brew involving Obama and Clinton, as to whether they would or would not talk to the leaders of Iran, Syria, Cuba, and Venezuela.

Here now, conservative talk show host Ben Ferguson from radio station WREC in Memphis. Liberal talk show host John McIntire from radio station 93.7, the Zone in Pittsburgh, PA. Boy, that's fun to say.

The hot story, of course this week, Clinton versus Obama. The conversation as to whether you talk to these guys or you don't talk to these guys. Is anybody really right here? Fellas, go ahead.

BEN FERGUSON, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: I think both -- I think it just doesn't matter at all, to tell you the truth, Rick. If Hillary doesn't want to meet with him, I think it's fine. If Obama meets with every one of them the first year, it's fine. I don't think it's - anybody's particularly naive. And I also don't think that the American people are paying that much attention. And I know Hillary is trying to characterize it as a rookie mistake, but I think it won't do any harm. Probably wouldn't do any good, probably wouldn't do any harm.

JOHN MCINTIRE, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes, but, you know, this is probably good for Hillary. It takes the attention away from everything else that seems to stick to her like glue, doesn't it?

BEN FERGUSON, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: Well, you've got to look at Hillary's campaign. And the one thing she's been able to campaign on is the idea that she's been around the world. She's been in the White House and seen what her husband - president for eight years. And I think that's where a lot of people - I think she scored points on this one, because I think she's saying, look, you don't legitimize everyone around the world, because everyone agrees that there are terrorists, there are crazies, and there are dictators and tyrants around the world. I don't think anyone disputes that on either side of the aisle. And she's saying, look, you can't go around the world as president of the United States of America, if I become president, and meet with every single crazy that wants to meet with you. And I think that's where -- look, on -- on foreign policy...

SANCHEZ: Yes, but she's -- yes, but if the past six, seven years show us anything, isn't it also that you should have some type of engagement with these guys?

MCINTIRE: Well, if the past six or seven years shows us anything is that George W. Bush has run the worst and most disastrous foreign policy in the history of the country. And he hasn't met with anybody. And look at the results. I'm not sure...

SANCHEZ: Go ahead and respond to that.

FERGUSON: Look at North Korea. I think there was some news that came out of Korea recently, where oh, yes, wait, they let the inspectors come back in and shut down one of their nuclear programs. That's what you're talking about right here. And that's what Hillary was saying was you don't go meet with a crazy man like that in North Korea. And then all of a sudden, look what happened. We let diplomacy work. We didn't meet with them all the time. And it actually had a positive benefit. The president's foreign policy is not broken.

Let's stop at the -- we accept both positions. Let's talk about something else. During the debate I noticed -- on the gay marriage issue, there we didn't meet with them and it had a positive benefit. And you can't say that his foreign policy is not broken. It has been a total disaster.

SANCHEZ: All right, let's stop at the -- we accept both positions. Let's talk about something else now. During the debate tonight, I was noticing. And the gay marriage issue came up. And there were like three or four questions on this. Is this a winner for Democrats? Or is this a loser that Karl Rove was probably sitting at home smiling about? Ben, let's begin with you.

FERGUSON: Well, I mean, with the debates tonight, I think what you saw is a bunch of people that are starting to rip on each other. And I think that's actually something that's going to be nice for other candidates that are running on the Republican side.

SANCHEZ: That's not the question I asked. It's about the gay marriage issue. Let's go to the other side on that, Ben. Go ahead, John.

MCINTIRE: My fear is that homophobia grips the country and that Karl Rove may be licking his chops. My hope is that people are starting to recognize that gay people are humans, too. And that it won't be a winner, but I'm afraid you might be right.

SANCHEZ: That's a very pragmatic answer. We're going to leave it at that. Guys, we're going to bring you back in just a little bit and continue the conversation. There's a British study out there, by the way. You guys still there? Let me ask you a question. How tall are you guys? Ben?

FERGUSON: 6'2''.

SANCHEZ: Say it again? 6'2"? And John?

MCINTIRE: 5'10 1/2''. More George Bush size.

SANCHEZ: 6'1'', 5'10 1/2''. Well, the average man, according to a British study, is 5'9''. If you're asking yourself how you compare at home, now ask yourself or your partner how these guys compare. We did a little digging. Here's the question, because we thought it would be interesting to find out who's the shortest? How short, for example, is Tom Cruise since everyone's been talking about this, watching him next to his wife, Katie Holmes, in fact? Put these in order from tall to short, if you would.

You ready? Tom Cruise, Prince William, Al Pacino, George Clooney, Elton John, or Michael J. Fox. Who's tallest? Who's shortest? The answers, coming up in just a little bit.

As our youtube debate showed, young people have definite opinions about almost every political issue. Immigration, the war, the economy, even drugs. We asked all of them about it. Coming up, we're going to tell you what your kids think about legalized marijuana. It's the kind of segment a lot of parents are going to want to see.

Also later, this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Online dating services make it very easy for sexual predators to use their sites. There can be stores for potential victimizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Candy stores, single mothers out there. Can you answer this question. Is that man that you just met on the market interested in you? Or is he interested in your child? This is a frightening report, one you're going to want to see.

Straight ahead, though, an amazing scene in Arizona. A car flips into water. Onlookers rush to the rescue. We're going to show you what happened and what they were able to get out of there. It's remarkable. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: And welcome back. Here's where we count down some of the best video picks of the day. And we're going to begin in Russia with women in a 100-yard dash wearing very high heels.

Why? They say because they can and because most men, they say, can't. At least no men that we know. Not even easy on them. Take a look at that. Now let's go to number two. This is out of Jacksonville, Florida. It's an 18-year-old. He's in that vehicle you're looking at right there. Police are worried because they've been chasing him for a while. And suddenly, he does these wheelies and then starts coming at the officer. See the headlights? Seem to be coming right at the police officer.

Then they lose him again. He's not on the roadway. That's because he's over there. See that fire? Apparently, he's underneath that vehicle. May be trapped. Police officers don't know. They run in, they're trying to get him out. So they're screaming at him. In fact, listen to this conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on! Come on!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Come on, they say. He says, I can't. My ankle it stuck. Well, finally, they are able to extricate him from the vehicle. And as you might imagine, he's been charged tonight. There's the firefighters arriving at the scene with several counts, including being intoxicated.

Number one, video number one is from Arizona. This is amazing. Two children are in this truck that's flipped over onto this roadway. There's a flood. The children are upside-down. The water is going over their heads. So one of these rescuers comes over here, out of the blue, gets one child out. Watch. Now he's going to go over to the other side. And you'll see where there's yet another child who's in a restraining seat. If they don't get him out, he's going to drown. So they're reaching in there. They're finally able to pull him out. And they take him out as well. It's a really remarkable rescue by some people who happen to be at the right place at the right time. And boy, thank goodness for that they were.

When we come back, another Hillary heckler. But this time, she gets heckled back. And this one gets loud.

Then, the so-called Gonzo gate. It is why the president has the worst approval rating in half a century? How low can it go? We'll tell you. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back. I want to show you a different part of our newsroom. This is where some of our national folks sit. They're making phone calls, trying to see if they can dig up some new information for you.

Here's a question. What does the youtube generation really think since we had that big youtube debate tonight? We've been following up on this ourselves, talking to some different young people from different colleges in the area like Georgia Tech and others, Emory. We gathered a couple of them here in the studio to ask them some of the hot button topics of the day.

One of them. And it's going to be interesting for a lot of you as parents, especially, whether marijuana should be "legalized." Well, now as you might imagine, the conversation got a little fired up.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Patrick, you're the one who was most fire-and-brimstone about that. Go ahead. Start us off.

PATRICK: The war on drugs, it's a losing battle. Also, it could help us balance to budget. You stop that, you save the money that's spent on the war on drugs. And also, you could put a tax on marijuana. And then, a lot more money comes in.

SANCHEZ: It's the old syntax argument. We do it with cigarettes, we do it with beer, right? Go ahead, Daniel.

DANIEL: George Washington used to smoke. He even said everywhere that you should distribute the Indian head seed every everywhere. Jimmy Carter said very finely, the punishment does not fit the crime. It ruins families just based off of personal choice. I mean, there's no difference between marijuana and alcohol. Absolutely no difference.

SANCHEZ: So you -- but you guys are saying stop at marijuana. I hope. Well, I'm wondering.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You, stop at marijuana.

SANCHEZ: You're not arguing that - oh, I mean, cocaine, heroin, all of that other bad stuff. All right, let's hear from these guys over here. Go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would say with marijuana, because you also are cutting a bunch of gang activity and criminal activity that's associated with marijuana. And especially in the African-American communities...

SANCHEZ: Oh, yes. Huge numbers of people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...who are in prison because of marijuana. And it's actually - I mean, it's less dangerous than alcohol and it's less dangerous than cigarettes. So why not have it out there, just government regulations?

SANCHEZ: Andrea, what do you think?

ANDREA: It's the entrance to higher drugs. I mean, if we have this available for anyone, where would the young people be?

SANCHEZ: Where is it going to stop, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's crime with it now.

SANCHEZ: It's a slippery slope, isn't it Andrea?

ANDREA: Very slippery.

SANCHEZ: They have access to all those drugs anyways. I mean, clubs, college. They can get it anywhere right now.

SANCHEZ: Do you think...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But most of the people that are in jail right now are for drug-related offenses.

SANCHEZ: But do you think the punishment is fair?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

SANCHEZ: A young African-American man or a young poor Hispanic man in a barrio gets picked up with a marijuana cigarette. A senator's son gets picked up with a marijuana cigarette. Who's going to spend more time in jail? Who's going to have it hidden?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At bare minimum, we at least need to decriminalize it. Like at least make it a misdemeanor, make it something where people are not doing life sentences for having pot, you know...

SANCHEZ: I don't know about life sentences, but hard time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I mean, you know, yes, that have to do hard time for it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deal with marijuana and have people going to jail for years and years because of marijuana.

SANCHEZ: You think that's wrong?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is wrong, because I mean, yes, it's drugs, but think about it in relation to other drugs and alcohol.

SANCHEZ: And you're a conservative?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am a conservative.

SANCHEZ: David, you're a conservative, too.

DAVID: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Do you think they should keep the laws as they are? Or they should cut a little more lenient when it comes to something like marijuana without stretching it any further...

DAVID: Yes, at minimum, I think it should be a state's issue. And I really -- I really don't see any difference myself between that and alcohol either.

(END VIDEOTAPE0

SANCHEZ: And we want to thank some of those upstarts for joining us here tonight.

Coming up, thousand questions to be answered in the new relationship. Here's one you probably never thought of. Is my new partner after my child? A new breed of pedophiles seeking out single moms on the Internet. We look to confront one such criminal. That is straight ahead.

Also this -- not all fun and games on the campaign trial trail for Hillary Clinton. Turns out that she's not always a crowd favorite. And then, in many ways, she is. Hillary heckler coming up. Dogbone politics segment.

And then we ask this question. Which of these celebrities is the shortest? If you guess Prince William, well, you'd be wrong. Britain's royal prince measures up to a very respectable 6'2''. I'm going to tell you who else measures up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Yes, here's one that may be one of the most important stories of the night. Jack McClellan is a self admitted pedophile who knows his way around the Web and around the law. Only tonight, some curious parents in Los Angeles are trying to turn the tables on him.

45-year-old man apparently likes to post comments about trolling for little girls on the blogs and in chat rooms. Police say they can't do a thing about it. He's not breaking any laws, just talking.

Parents, though, are furious. And they're also scared. They started posting McClellan's sightings on their own blogs and websites. They're also putting up his picture at various parks. They found one photo on the Web.

Also tonight, a warning for single mothers who frequent the online dating services. It turns out that some sexual predators are using you to try and get to your children. Here's CNN's Allan Chernoff.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Alone and looking396 is looking for love on match.com. He writes in his profile, life is so wonderful. I know I am not meant to spend it alone. Adding, he would like to meet a woman who has children.

What he doesn't reveal is that he's a convicted child molester. His real name is Michael Bradley. And five years ago, he pled guilty to sodomizing a 15-year-old boy in Suffolk County, New York, and was sentenced to ten years of probation, including a prohibition against socializing on the Internet. When CNN went to the gas station Bradley owns to ask him what he was doing on match.com, his daughter Kim told us to leave.

KIM: He does not want to speak to anybody right now. His lawyer has advised him to ask you to leave the premises. Please leave the premises, OK? CHERNOFF: Is he here?

KIM: No, he is not. You can leave now.

CHERNOFF: Nor was Mr. Bradley at home. After getting anonymous complaints about Bradley's profile on match.com, the child abuse prevention group Parents for Megan's Law set up a fictional match.com profile. Compassionate mom, a single parent of 7 and 12-year-old boys. The group says it got a quick response after contacting Bradley through the site.

LAURA AHEARN, PARENTS FOR MEGAN'S LAW: Within hours, he e-mailed back, wanted to set up a meet to have coffee or ice cream. Online dating services make it very easy for sexual predators to use their sites. There can be stores for potential victimizations.

CHERNOFF: Suffolk County's probation office ordered Bradley off the dating site and confiscated his computer. Now forensic investigators are analyzing the hard drive to deliver evidence in court that Bradley violated his probation.

DONNA VIGILANTE, FORENSIC INVESTIGATOR: We're finding more and more of our probationers online, using the Internet as a tool. To say, groom victims.

CHERNOFF: Match.com, which declined to speak on camera, says it quickly pulled Bradley's profile after receiving a complaint. Member safety is and always will be our highest priority at match.com, a spokesperson told CNN.

It's not only dating sites that present opportunity for sex offenders. 33-year-old Michael Karas last month pled guilty to raping a six-year-old girl in Ohio after meeting her mother through the social networking site myspace.com. He's been sentenced to 10 1/2 years in prison.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes me feel so guilty because I feel like I allowed it to happen.

CHERNOFF: Online dating site true.com, which screens applicants unlike most dating sites including match.com, says it has blocked 30,000 convicted felons and sex offenders so far this year.

HERB VEST, CEO, TRUE.COM: They'll go on and look for women with children and particularly women with children that have photos of those children. So that the fantasy begins to build at that point.

CHERNOFF: Good reason for women looking for love online to be very cautious, and experts say, provide few details and no pictures of the kids when first meeting an online suitor.

Allen Chernoff, CNN, Suffolk County, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Coming up, if you stay with us, President Bush is approaching a mark of historical significance. It's not one he's going to be proud of. What is that? That's just part of the (INAUDIBLE) in tonight's dogbone politics.

Also, they're the two leading Democrats on the presidential campaign trail. How have they allowed Castro and Chavez to come between them? The blow by blow is next.

Also, who's the shortest celeb? Next on the list, if you guessed George Clooney, and he was a shorty, wrong. He's 5'11''. How about Tom Cruise? How about Al Pacino? We're going to size it up for you, next in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: All right. It's time now for dogbone politics. And what is it about hecklers that make us want to listen to them? Maybe because they make boring speeches much more interesting. And why does Hillary Clinton seem to get more on her share of these? Well, here's the senator getting it again earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Energy fund. Let's fund $50 billion to do this renewable, clean, alternative energy. And then let's make sure that we put it...

(BOOING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Hold the sign right in front of her face. She was an friendly turf, by the way, speaking to a college Democrats in South Carolina when all of a sudden, this woman started holding up this sign. And as you can see, the rest of the folks in the crowd then suddenly started to heckle the heckler, essentially saying shut up and sit down. And so it goes.

Republican Mitt Romney has started now, but he's going to jump into the running feud between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. The two Democrats have been going at it ever since the CNN youtube debate. And that's when Obama said if he's elected president, he'd be willing to meet with what he'd call some questionable world leaders. Clinton pounced on that comment. Well, today, Mitt Romney piled on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What did Barack Obama have to say? He wants to meet with Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro in his first year. Are you kidding me? Those are the last people I'd meet with in my first year. I'd never meet with those guys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Mitt Romney folks.

Well, to President Bush now, who has to be thinking things can only get better. A new poll pegs his disapproval rating at 65 percent. His approval at 25. That's according to The Washington Post/ABC News poll. That puts him below Richard Nixon. But to find somebody with a lower approval rating, you have to go back more than half a century back to Harry Truman.

Now why is every president who's running for office always say they want to be more like Harry Truman? Just a question.

Meantime, the White House did a little editing today on the president's radio address. Referring to a proposed change to the warrantless wire tapping program, the president said, and we quote, every day that Congress puts off these reforms increases the danger to our nation. That line got taken out, by the way. Democrats who saw an early transcript of the remark cried foul. And the White House apparently agreed.

In the words of an administration official, "Our sole objective has been to get the law changed, not to seek partisan advantage. So we were happy to make the requested change." There's some peace in Washington.

Well, we've got a lot to chew on now. Here again, conservative radio host Ben Ferguson from WREC in Memphis, Tennessee. And liberal radio host John McIntire from Pittsburgh's 93.7, the zone.

All right, guys, let's talk with Gonzales. Boy, talk about a barbecue, a grilling. Well, Comey says one thing. The FBI investigator says that same thing. And a lot of the investigators who -- or the FBI director, I should say. I misspoke. And a lot of the investigators are saying that, too, but Gonzales is saying something totally different. It does appear, Ben, that somebody here is lying about these warrantless wire taps and whether they want to hospital to talk to Ashcroft about that or other things. Who's lying?

FERGUSON: Well, I think you've got to look at this and look at the FBI director. And I think there's a lot of question. And it's a good question to ask about the new -- about the new attorney general. Look at him and say, hey, how did you forget what you went there to ask? You know, then sitting Attorney General John Ashcroft. How did you not know that you were going there about? And if you discussed things that now we think you need to talk about...

SANCHEZ: OK, so you agree we've got a credibility problem here?

FERGUSON: Oh, absolutely. Yes, I think there's a credibility problem here because he always says I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't really remember what's going on. It's not that hard. You were the one that went to that room to ask John Ashcroft.

SANCHEZ: Here's -- we get that. How big a problem, though, does it become, John, for the president of the United States to have somebody like this who's being criticized by folks like Ben and members of the Republican party and being really gone after by members of the Democratic party?

MCINTIRE: Yes, you make a good point, Rick. Muller knows he's lying. All of Washington knows.

SANCHEZ: Comey's the name you're looking for.

MCINTIRE: Absolutely, thank you very much. And either Comey and Muller are lying or Gonzales is lying. And it's obvious that Gonzales is lying.

SANCHEZ: But the question is the president. What do you want the president - what would you expect the president to do, given a situation having his -- his attorney general, no less, being questioned about his credibility on law?

MCINTIRE: If George W. Bush cared about the rule of law and if he cared about having a credible attorney general, he'd fire him. He doesn't care about it. He's going to run out the clock.

The Congress, I don't believe, really has the cajones to enforce subpoenas and to put a big legal confrontation and a constitutional confrontation in place. They won't move to impeach him. And I think he'll run out the clock. And I think Gonzales will not end up resigning in the end.

SANCHEZ: OK, Ben, you're the conservative. Should he do that?

FERGUSON: I'll be honest with you. Most conservatives out there are not using the "Talking Points" of the White House right now. I think that a lot of people in the conservative side of things don't believe in Alberto Gonzales anymore, don't believe that he can do a good job.

You look at how good of a job Robert Yates has done now that he's come in for Donald Rumsfeld. And Donald Rumsfeld didn't lie about anything. People he just - he had this time there.

And I think this -- this attorney general has overstepped his time. It's time for him to go, look, President bush, I'm going to go away. I'm going to let someone else come in and do a good job because people don't trust me.

SANCHEZ: So he should basically fall on the sword? Guys, stay there. We're going to try and get back and get another minute in. We got to talk about Hillary Clinton. We got to talk about the heckler. We're going to talk as well.

What did I have in my notes today? Oh, that's right. About the possibility that Hillary's not a liberal. She calls herself a modern progressive. John, I want to know what you think about that. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

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SANCHEZ: All right, hey, we've got our guys back. John, let me start with you. Do you consider yourself a liberal?

MCINTIRE: Yes. SANCHEZ: Why did Hillary not admit to being a liberal if most of her policies have been like that in the past? In fact, she chose the word 'modern progressive.' What do you make of that?

MCINTIRE: I think - well, she's trying to position herself to try and not appear to be a liberal. I don't think she's nearly as liberal as the Republicans has claimed she is. For years, she voted for the authorization of the Iraq War. Her husband voted for the defense of marriage act, which I find deplorable. I think Hillary Clinton is a pandering centrist without the charisma of her husband.

SANCHEZ: Whoa, that's interesting. We've got the conservative going after Gonzales. And now we got the liberal going after Hillary Clinton. You know, I'll tell you, this is great, this TV stuff. Good having you guys on. Ben, go ahead. Close us out on that.

FERGUSON: Look, Hillary's been a liberal from day one. If anything, she's trying to act like she's more moderate because she's been -- she was polarizing for so long. You either love her or you hate her. And the polls say that. There's not many in between. And she's trying to get back to the center to get people in the middle. Then kind of come over to her side of the fence.

Because everybody knows she's been a liberal for as long as she's been around. She was the First Lady to ever go after socialized healthcare. How much more liberal do you get than that?

SANCHEZ: All right, we'll let it go. We'll let it go. We'll get back to you guys on this. You guy are great guests. We'll have you back.

FERGUSON: Thanks for having us.

SANCHEZ: Thanks. We appreciate it.

Coming up, the United States is a nation addicted to oil, but this 14-year-old girl is working to change that. And what she's done has saved billions of gallons of gas for you and for me.

Next, who's the shortest celeb as well? Well, now let's get down to Elton John. He's 5'7''. And that's, of course, without the funny hats he wears sometimes. We'll size him up for you. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

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SANCHEZ: Welcome back to one of our favorite segments. Would you like to save more on gas? Well, of course, you would. Tonight's CNN hero can help. Her name is Savannah Walters. Here now, her story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go ahead when you're ready.

SAVANNAH WALTERS: Yes, I'm worried about the future because I don't want to live in a yucky world where there's no clean water to drink and no clean air to breathe. If we join the arctic refuge, we're going to hurt lots of animals and people. And it's just not fair. I'm Savannah Walters. And I'm teaching people to pump up their tires to save the arctic refuge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was on a photo assignment in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. And ever since then, I've been involved in environmental activism. One evening, the phone rang. And this little girl said I'm Savannah Rose Walters. And I'm 9 years old. And my mom said I could call you.

WALTERS: He was the one who told me that Americans waste millions of gallons of gas a day by driving on underinflated tires. And I said, well, why don't they just pump up them up?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, why don't you ask them t? And so she did.

WALTERS: I got permission to go and put tire gauges, fliers, and ballooned on everybody's car in the local train station, explaining to people how they could pump up and check their tires.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I My first reaction was why didn't I think of that? And I think that was only the beginning of her education of me.

WALTERS: Do you know how to check your tires? So easy is you want to look for the PSI. And that's pounds per square inch. If you pump up your tires, your tires are going to last a lot longer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, good to know.

WALTERS: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 33?

WALTERS: Mm-hmm, that's about right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, hot dog.

WALTERS: OK, you can keep the tire here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I need to check this once a week?

WALTERS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you very much.

WALTERS: Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Savannah Rose is doing what she's doing because she wants to do it. And she understands that she needs to do it for things to get better. WALTERS: It's just about protecting the planet and wanting to live in a clean world.

SANCHEZ: Great story. And while we did ask you which of the celebs is the shortest. We've eliminated three for you already. But the showdown for the shortest isn't over. The winner between Pacino and the rest, is coming up next.

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SANCHEZ: All right, here's the list that you've been waiting for. How do celebrities measure up? Here's the final results. Prince William, tallest. He's 6'2". Clooney is 5'11". Elton John and Tom Cruise are both 5'7". Rounding out the bottom, Al Pacino is only 5'5". And that means Michael J. Fox is the shortest one in the group at 5'4."

And now you know. I'm Rick Sanchez. Thanks so much for being with us. We'll look for you again right here tomorrow.

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