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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Triple-Murder Victims Mourned
Aired July 30, 2007 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, tears and terror and the torment of wondering why. A quiet Connecticut town gathers to mourn a mother and two daughters brutally murdered in a home invasion last week.
We're at tonight's memorial with a community leader who spoke there. He knows the husband and father who survived the horror.
Plus exclusive -- a beautiful college student found dead in her dorm room. Eastern Michigan University officials tell her heartbroken family no foul play. But months later, another student is arrested for her rape and murder.
Was there a cover-up?
Now, for the first time, the man fired from his job as the school's president gives his side of the story.
And then, an admitted pedophile snaps photo of little girls, puts them on his Web site and rates the best public places to find them. Outraged parents can't do a thing because it's legal.
Next on "LARRY
A week ago today, two strangers entered a home in an upscale section of Cheshire, Connecticut. There, they began a seven hour assault on the family of four, ending in deadly flames.
Dr. William Petit, his wife and two daughters were left for dead. The doctor was tied up and held in the basement, managed to escape, get to a neighbor's house. His wife and daughters perished.
We begin in Plainville, Connecticut with Christopher Wazorko, the elected chairman of the Plainville Town Council and Robert Lee, the town manager.
A private memorial service was held tonight.
We understand, Chris, that Dr. Petit was there.
Is that right?
CHRISTOPHER WAZORKO, CHAIRMAN, PLAINVILLE, CONNECTICUT TOWN COUNCIL: That's correct. He was. KING: What was it like, Chris?
WAZORKO: Well, it's, you know, really the whole week, it's just been such an emotional week for the town and the communities around. Obviously, the town of Cheshire, just down the road Route 10 a little bit from us, very emotional. I think, you know, especially some of the people here in Plainville just want to have an opportunity to try and share some of the sorrow, some of the grief the Petit and the Hawke families are going through.
KING: Robert, how do you explain it to yourself -- two savage guys take this family, then drive the wife to a bank, get money?
Why didn't the bank -- why didn't somebody call -- why didn't something happen to prevent this?
ROBERT LEE, PLAINVILLE, CONNECTICUT TOWN MANAGER: I just think things moved too quickly. You know, the police are following up on that and the family has expressed very good feelings with regards to the way this was handled as far as the police department is concerned.
So we don't know why. But things moved very quickly in that morning by the time they moved themselves out of that bank.
KING: Have the people at bank said anything, Robert?
LEE: Not to us directly.
KING: How is the community dealing with it, Robert?
LEE: Well, I think tonight was the opportunity for the community to show the Petits how much we care about them. They've given so much to the Plainville community for many, many years. You know, with Dr. Petit and his wife -- their livelihoods was based on helping others. And they were passing that on to their children.
And this is an opportunity for our town to show them how much they mean to us and, hopefully, how much we can help them moving forward.
KING: Christopher, how is Dr. Petit doing?
WAZORKO: From what we understand, you know, I think at this point, he's probably a little bit more physically further along than mentally. But, you know, the wounds that he suffered last week are healing. And he is able to get out and mourn with the community tonight.
KING: You, Chris, you work with his sister, right?
WAZORKO: Yes. I serve on the Plainville Town Council with his -- with Dr. Petit's sister. Yes.
KING: What has she had to say?
WAZORKO: You know, pretty much the same thing. You know, we've all been saying, you know, questions about why and how come and, you know -- the outpouring from the community, they've said -- the Petit family has said thank you a countless of times to, you know, thousands of people.
You know, we're estimating we had somewhere around a thousand people show up tonight for tonight's memorial here in the center of town.
So, you know, they're very appreciative. I think they're looking for a shoulder to lean on at this point. And, you know, the community was more than willing to give them that shoulder.
KING: Now, Robert, obviously the investigation is ongoing.
The Petits are a prominent family in town, are they not?
LEE: Yes, they are. The Petit patriarch -- Bill, Sr. and his wife Barbara have been involved in the community for probably 30 to 40 years. Bill Petit, Sr. has served on the town council, as town council chair. He's been the president of the Chamber of Commerce. He's been in the Rotary Club. Barbara Petit served on the library board of trustees for many years. They just are symbolic and the embodiment of our community. And, you know, for such a tragedy to happen to them is unthinkable to us.
KING: Do you think...
KING: Do you think that that fact, of their prominence, was the link to how they were targeted?
LEE: We don't know that. We don't know that. I think, you know, from what we've read and what we've been able to see, I think they targeted them because they thought that they -- they had money. And I guess these people were desperate.
KING: Chris, they don't need financial help.
What can the town do?
WAZORKO: Well, right now, you know, we had a public ceremony in a town -- New Britain, next door to us, at Central Connecticut State University. We had our memorial service tonight.
I think, you know, from what the Petits said tonight, you know, that the outpouring of the concern -- the food, the cards, just the general feeling over the last week and the support they felt from the community, you know, they were very appreciative.
I think at this point it's going to be time for the community to start healing. And like I said before, everyone needs to find that shoulder they can lean on, you know, someone to listen and, you know, and get through this.
KING: Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad. Thank you, Christopher Wazorko and Robert Lee.
WAZORKO: Yes, sir.
KING: Coming up, more on the Petit case -- how it could have been avoided, how you can protect your family from such a tragedy. That's next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, JULY 28)
DR. WILLIAM PETIT, JR.: Jen was an amazing mother and friend. As you heard, she was involved in all aspect of the girls' lives. Jen always thought of others first, but after she developed M.S. she started to instill these values in the girls, giving back to the community and getting involved with the M.S. Society. It was really Hayley, of her own accord, Hayley wanted to do something. She was -- she thought her mom was going to die and she figured if she did something she could save her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We continue this incredible story.
In Stamford, Connecticut is Vito Colucci, a private investigator, a former officer with the Stamford Police Department. He's been a private eye for 18 years.
In New York, Dr. Casey Jordan, criminologist and attorney.
And here in Los Angeles, Al Corbi, a security expert who designs security systems for residential and business use.
Vito, how could this happen?
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, FORMER MEMBER, STAMFORD, CONNECTICUT POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, you know, Larry, what I think happened on this -- and I've talked to a lot of police officers over the last week. I think when the 911 call came into the police department, I have a feeling that the street sergeant, the street lieutenant sent a squad car over to the bank to check it out, to make sure it's a legitimate thing.
I don't have a problem with that part of it.
But if I'm the street sergeant, at the same time I'm sending somebody to the bank, I'm sending one or two officers up to the house, be around the perimeter, until they get a call as to what's going on.
This is a small department, a little over 40 men, Larry.
KING: It seems obvious, Dr. Jordan, that somebody goofed.
CASEY JORDAN, PH.D. ATTORNEY AND CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, I don't know that anybody goofed. I think that it really is just a matter of people slipping through the cracks. If you're referring to our correctional system, it's true that these two had very long rap sheets. But we have to keep in mind there was no indices in their criminal histories of violence.
You know, the one man, Steven Hayes, he had spent more than half of his life in and out of jail. And yet until this moment had never been charged with a violent crime.
So it's easy to blame the parole board for letting them out on parole and yet for similar cases, that's just par for the course.
KING: Al Corbi, this is a very wealthy family, very prominent.
Was there some failure in the security system?
AL CORBI, SECURITY EXPERT, DESIGNS RESIDENTIAL & HOME SECURITY SYSTEMS: I think what you always -- you have to remember, these guys showed up in that neighborhood and at some point they were standing out in the street looking at a bunch of homes.
Why did they pick that home?
Why did that home look particularly attractive to them?
From what I've heard up to now, they didn't know the victims. So, for some reason these knuckleheads found that house attractive. They didn't even time for a security system to work.
You need to make your house less attractive. That's the first thing you have to do.
KING: Make it less attractive?
CORBI: Less attractive. Now, that's not to say you're going to end the crime. If they're there to commit a crime, they're going to commit it. And it's a heck of a note, but better you move it down the street. Don't have it happen to you and your family.
You have to do things to make your house look unattractive. Obviously, this house looked very attractive. That's why they walked up to it.
KING: Vito, when you get a 911 call and don't they speak to the 911 operator?
Wouldn't they have said to the 911 operator that there's trouble at my house, not at the bank?
COLUCCI: Yes, that's true, Larry. But you've got to realize something. The 911 operator looks at her screen and what she does she see?
She knows it's daytime.
What does she have?
A hostage situation.
But where is the call originating from?
The bank, OK, even though she's told that something's going on. Somebody can have a gun at a teller's head and just try to get them to a different part of town.
There's only three or four squad cars on the road in this town at any given time. They should have sent somebody -- I hope this -- you know, I hope we don't find out they didn't send anybody to the home at the same time they're sending them to the bank.
KING: Casey, are you saying there's no way you could have psychologically profiled these two to do what they did?
JORDAN: Based on their rap sheets, no. I mean you would have had to have had a tremendous amount of one-on-one psychometric -- you would have had to have a lot of one-on-one time with a psychiatrist for them to have any indices of this.
You know, hindsight is always 20-20. It's easy for us to look backwards. There's only one thing in the younger guys, Komisarjevsky's background, the fact he carried a kit with him and used night vision goggles during his burglaries.
These, in retrospect, were thrill seeking, adventure seeking burglars.
But I have to tell you, that's just a very small percentage of all burglars. Most of them are cowards. They're in it for the haul and they don't want any confrontation with people.
KING: Al, this is hindsight, of course.
Could the woman have done something differently when in the bank?
The guy is out in the car, so she's free.
CORBI: Do we know whether or not she drove the car?
KING: Does anyone know that, who drove the car?
JORDAN: I don't...
KING: I don't think we do.
JORDAN: I don't think we know that, Larry. But I do know she did alert the bank tellers. And my understanding is the tellers did call 911 and police were dispatched both to the home -- because they had the address on the check that she cashed -- as well as calling officers to the bank to interview the teller. So I think they did that correctly. KING: All right.
So why does it matter who drove?
CORBI: Oh, this is really important. A lot of times victims will be driving and the people that are perpetrating the crimes are telling them to do things -- gunpoint or something like this.
Ironically, they very rarely put their seat belt on. The best thing you can do is just run into something. While you're driving, run into another car. Run into a telephone pole. Run into the bank. The chances are better than not you'll be fine. The whole thing could have ended right then.
KING: But once you're in the bank alone, Vito, she's not with you in the bank. She went in the bank alone.
Why couldn't something have happened there?
COLUCCI: Yes, see the mistake -- and she didn't know -- the mistake I feel she made is she was free. If she thought by any imagination that she was going to go back to the house with the money, give it to these guys and these guys were going to leave her family alone after they have already eyeballed who the both of them were and could pick them out of a mug shot book -- see, that was a big mistake.
She was out. She should have stayed out at the time. And this is no knock against her. She did what, probably, most people would do -- try to save their family.
KING: I'm go to ask Al, in a minute, how to keep your home safer and touch other bases, when we come back.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETIT: I guess if there's anything to be gained from the senseless death of my beautiful family, (INAUDIBLE) I'll go forward with the inclination to live with the faith that embodies action to help a neighbor, fight for their cause, to help your family. I am literally expecting all of you to go out and do some of these things with your family in your own little way, to spread the work of these three wonderful women.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. Before I ask Al Corbi for some tips, let's check in with Jamie Roth of WFSB Hartford.
She's in Plainville, Connecticut.
What's the latest on this story investigation-wise, Jamie?
JAMIE ROTH, WFSB REPORTER, COVERED TONIGHT'S MEMORIAL: Well, the latest is they have the two and only suspects behind bars right now and they're charged with 41 criminal -- 41 crimes in between them, Steven Hayes and Joshua Komisarjevsky -- everything from capital felony, which is capital murder in Connecticut -- to kidnapping, sexual assault, arson, burglary, larceny, robbery.
So that's where it stands with the investigation. And those two are due in court the second week in August to enter a plea and to hear the new capital felony charges against them. Those came after the initial arson, kidnapping charges.
KING: Any word from anyone at the bank?
ROTH: Not yet. We have heard in some areas of the press people who were in the bank when Jennifer Hawke-Petit came in.
But no one from the bank specifically is talking about what Jennifer may have said, what note or what actions she -- what notes she may have passed to a teller, what she may have said to one of the workers there to indicate that her family was in trouble.
We don't know about those conversations just yet.
KING: Al, give me some tips, typical tips on making a house safer.
CORBI: Well, like I said, the first thing that you want to do is make sure if somebody is going to be in your neighborhood anyway and they're looking around at houses, they don't pick yours.
For instance, let's say it's dark. It's night. If you have a home where you have motion detectors, very inexpensive -- with a light on the corners of each of your house.
When they step on that property and those lights go on, they're going to back off. They're likely to move down the block. Another thing, it's like $30 and it's a little thing that looks like a Glade plug in. And you plug it into your wall and you put a lamp or a TV or something into it, and the little motion detectors out on your property any place.
When they enter your property, the lights and the TV and everything go on inside the house.
By and large, most of these guys are -- they're afraid to get caught. If something like that happens, they're going to move down the street.
KING: Vito, is it that we don't think about it?
COLUCCI: Yes. We are very complacent. People are very complacent.
Larry, since this story broke, it's amazing the people I've talked to that still -- they talk about the Cheshire case for one minute and then they leave their doors and windows open. They're still doing it now, a week after this happened in Connecticut here.
And, you know, if I can, I admire Casey Jordan a lot, but I have to differ with her on a big, big point here.
There was the telltale signs with these guys. This Joshua guy had 19 burglaries in the last four-and-a-half years. He stepped up to night goggles and carrying weapons. If he would have gotten a longer sentence on any of these 19 things, these murders would not happen.
JORDAN: Vito, I don't disagree with you, they would have happened at some point. Perhaps they wouldn't have happened to Dr. Petit's family.
But this whole idea that if you guard your house better, all you're doing is displacing it to someone else, is not very reassuring. You could have kept them in jail for another year, two more years. When they got out, it still would have happened.
You can try to displace crime. You can you try to predict it. But this is -- there's not an exact science to this. And to a large extent, when you protect yourself and try to make your home a little less attractive, somebody else is going to be the victim of that violent crime. It doesn't stop it. It just displaces it.
COLUCCI: I don't know, Casey. So you're saying that even if they stayed in jail another year or two, they would get out and commit the crime?
Is that what you're saying?
JORDAN: Hayes was in prison for over 24 years, in and out. No amount of prison stopped him from graduating to this.
There -- you've got to understand crime is very complex. There's a lot of variables involved.
I actually think the two of these guys, meeting each other in the halfway house, caused almost a chemical reaction and made them do things that they never would have done on their own.
KING: Jamie, have the police said anything?
ROTH: The police in Cheshire are just ripped apart by this. All they can tell us is that the Petit family was, for some specific reason -- and they're not disclosing what it is -- targeted by these two men.
I've heard from sources that the men staked them out at a Stop & Shop the night before they were murdered.
But we don't know why these women were chosen, this family was chosen.
KING: And we'll never know, will we, unless the men talk, Al? CORBI: Oh, that's true.
We have -- we're not going to know unless they tell us the reason?
CORBI: And the fact of the matter is, more often than not, when my clients have called me and if something has happened, typically the people that committed the crimes didn't know them ahead of time.
You know, people always say oh, it was a random thing. Yes. But it doesn't make you feel any better when it's your family. It's always random.
KING: Is something as bizarre as this really preventable?
CORBI: I agree with what the lady said. No, it's not preventable. But you don't want it happening to your family.
Is it a solace that you moved it down the block to someone else?
But I don't want it happening to my family. Yes, it's preventable for your family if you take responsibility.
KING: Thank you all very, very much.
Before we take a break, here it is, our newest pod cast -- Michael Moore.
It's available at CNN.com/larryking or iTunes.
Moore's film, "Sicko," has been as successful as it has been controversial.
Now you can download our interview with Michael and hear all about the movie and horror stories about our health care system.
That's Michael Moore available as a pod cast at CNN.com/larryking or on iTunes.
Up next, the campus murder that was passed off at natural causes and the former university president who said he was duped along with the public and the victim's parents.
Don't go away.
KING: Welcome back.
The body of 22-year-old Laura Dickinson was found December 15th in her dorm room at Eastern Michigan University in Ypsilanti, Michigan. At the time, university authorities told Laura's parents and the press that she died of asphyxiation and there were no signs of foul play.
But in reality, there was evidence to the contrary. It wasn't until another student at the school was arrested two months later that her family and the 23,000-member student body officially learned that Laura had been raped and killed.
We welcome John Fallon, the former president of Eastern Michigan, accused of withholding the information, forced out of his job by the school's board of regents.
His wife Sidney is with him.
And the attorney for the Fallons, Marian Faupel, is here as well.
All right, John, what happened?
JOHN A. FALLON, FORMER PRESIDENT, EASTERN MICH. UNIVERSITY: I was told on December 15th by the vice president for student affairs at the university that a young woman is found dead in her residence hall room, she was partially clothed and there was no sign of foul play.
What I wasn't told that evening was something that we did, in fact, learn two-and-a-half months or so later, in that a pillow was found over her face and she had semen on her body.
I was not told about that.
J. FALLON: I -- I was not told by the vice president for student affairs because I -- I think there was some concern, sensitivity to the university's position. But I also know that there was an intent to keep this under wraps. And in fact I felt betrayed, genuinely betrayed, by the very...
KING: Because your own people lied to you?
J. FALLON: My trusted vice president for Student Affairs did not tell me the truth. He knew or should have known. And there was also a point in all of this when a police incident report was to have made its way from the Department of Public Safety through his office to the university's General Counsel and it was interrupted, that path was interrupted. And the incident report was ordered shredded by the vice president for Student Affairs.
KING: Does he still hold that job?
J. FALLON: He does not. He was separated, shall we say, from the university, he and the director of the Department of Public Service, separated from the university, and I was fired.
J. FALLON: Well...
KING: They didn't like your story or they didn't accept it?
J. FALLON: I -- well, I'm holding here, Larry, a 114-page half a million dollar report that was commissioned by the university. And I daresay any intelligent person that would read this would come to conclude what I did, that there's a direct inverse relationship between the contents of this report and the severity of the actions, the personnel actions that were taken as a result of this.
KING: Why do you think they did it?
J. FALLON: The...
KING: Why did they fire you?
J. FALLON: The Board of Regents? Well, I feel betrayed by them as well.
J. FALLON: Because of that very fact. And I believe that this was, in fact, a cover-up -- these are terms that are not comfortable for me. There was in fact a cover-up and there was a need for a fall guy. These are Elmore Leonard terms, there's aren't John Fallon terms, and that's the way it cut.
KING: Laura's father, John, appeared on this program on July 19. We invited him to appear here tonight. He declined. Let's take a look at what he had to say when he was on the show and then we'll get our guests to comment. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Well, what now are your feelings about Eastern Michigan University and its officials and why did they do this?
ROBERT DICKINSON, DAUGHTER MURDERED IN HER DORM AT E. MICH. U.: Why they did it is the big unknown.
Feelings towards Eastern, they have begun turning around and setting new policies and plans to correct what they did wrong. And basically what they did wrong was not follow federal laws stated in the Cleary Act about informing the public, informing everybody what happened and when. They are taking care of business on their own, and dismissing the president, the vice president and the chief of police is part of that process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Want to comment, John?
J. FALLON: I had a chance to talk to Bob Dickinson today, and Sidney and I have met with Bob and Deb Dickinson a couple times.
KING: The parents. J. FALLON: That's correct. The last time we were together it was a parent-to-parent, heart-to-heart meeting without the benefit of the glare of the media. And we went there to express our condolences to the Dickinsons because I can't imagine the pain and suffering that they have endured over the course of this. And Bob Dickinson you know now is a very decent human being.
KING: He sure is.
J. FALLON: And so is his wife and so is his family. He's mustered more understanding than I could ever imagine in this situation.
KING: Sidney, were you very involved in school affairs?
SIDNEY FALLON, WIFE OF FORMER E. MICH. U. PRESIDENT: I did a lot of volunteer work on campus.
KING: What do you make of what happened?
S. FALLON: It's heartbreaking, from the death, to the cover-up, to the pain of the family repeatedly having to go through this and the upcoming trial, and of course, from a personal perspective, to watch the reputation of a gentleman that I'm married to and have watched his career and his integrity and his leadership be totally disregarded.
KING: How long were you president of the school, John?
J. FALLON: For two years almost to the day. And...
KING: Were you president of another school before that?
J. FALLON: I was, the State University of New York in Potsdam, a delightful little college in upstate New York City and prior to that at William Penn University in Iowa for three years. My career in higher education spans 34 years. And I...
KING: Do you think it's over?
J. FALLON: I do think it's over. I didn't lose a job. I lost a career.
KING: Now as an attorney are you representing him in any action?
MARIAN FAUPEL, ATTORNEY FOR THE FALLONS: There's no action that's been filed yet. We believe that, in fact, he's a victim of fraud that this was an intentional fraud on him that has resulted in damages and that serves a unique situation because...
KING: Are you suing these people?
FAUPEL: We're considering it. Mr. Vick, the vice president, directly reported to the president. And it's kind of interesting all through the country you have people who are CEOs who have to rely on their cabinets and rely on their trusted advisers and when they are clearly misrepresenting facts and causing damages, there's an issue as to whether there shouldn't have some personal liability for that.
KING: In retrospect, John, in retrospect, could you have done more?
J. FALLON: I think a lot of things could have been done differently along the way here. And Eastern Michigan University is a large complex organization, 24,000 students, 2,000 employees. We came to the institution at a particularly difficult time for it. It wasn't stable. It had significant problems and I was prepared to tackle that and did and had many irons in the fire. Some would have said that my assignment was unrealistic, but I was willing to do that. But I don't doubt the fact that we could have done more and could have done better.
KING: What do you do now, Sidney?
S. FALLON: Well, what do I do or...
KING: What do you do as a family? What do you do? How do you get it back, the reputation?
S. FALLON: That's why we're here today, to begin to tell the other part of the story. FOX News had an article I saw online that said three -- and I'm not going to be able to quote it correctly but basically that three top administrators admitted to lying and they included my husband in that, and that's just wrong. He didn't lie about this. He didn't cover this up and that story needs to be told as well.
KING: We're going to take a break and come back with more.
By the way, we did make calls to EMU's former vice president of public affairs Jim Vick and the former public safety director Cindy Hall to invite them to appear on the show. Neither of them returned our calls.
When we come back, what's been done to prevent the same problem from happening again at Eastern Michigan. Don't go away.
KING: We're back with John Fallon, his wife Sidney and attorney Marian Faupel.
You did receive, what, a year's severance?
J. FALLON: I believe so, nothing official yet.
KING: You don't know? You haven't received it?
J. FALLON: I have not.
KING: And what's the story on the house you lived in?
J. FALLON: Well, that was the single largest controversy perhaps in the history of Eastern Michigan University and it was fresh when we got there.
KING: They built the house for the former president?
J. FALLON: That's correct. This was an 11,000-square foot, $6.5 million home that was significantly over budget and a source of...
KING: You lived in it?
J. FALLON: I was required to live in it as per my contract.
KING: Were you given any blame for living in it if you had to live in it?
J. FALLON: We were given -- there was tension about that house every hour of every day in my tenure at Eastern.
KING: Why didn't you decline to live in it?
J. FALLON: Because it was part of the contract and our motivation, Larry, to go back to Eastern -- to go back to Michigan and serve Eastern Michigan University was because we're Michiganders.
KING: Oh, you are?
J. FALLON: And we received between us six degrees from Michigan public universities. And this was an opportunity to give back to the taxpayers of the state.
KING: Is there a way, Marion, for parents sending children to school to know about the safety record of the school?
FAUPEL: Actually there is because the Cleary Act is a federal statute that was enacted after a young co-ed was killed on campus. And I discovered that if you get on the FBI.gov site and search for colleges and universities, there's a search box there, you just choose then, universities and colleges, crime in the U.S., and then choose Table 9. And there's a chart that really discloses the crime...
KING: Lists the schools and the crimes?
FAUPEL: All of the schools that received Title IV student assistance from the federal government which is virtually...
KING: How many crimes occurred...
KING: ... alcohol?
FAUPEL: Yes. Yes. And I looked it up for California, for Harvard, for Yale and the categories are violent crime, murder and non-neglect manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, property crime...
KING: This has happened at all the schools? FAUPEL: Yes, all over the country and it's current as of 2005. They haven't posted for 2006 yet. But it's alarming.
KING: When John Dickinson was on our show, we showed you a clip earlier to talk about his daughter's death; he had a lot to say about forgiving the university. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICKINSON: Well, it would be a daily issue of forgiveness towards them, and to live with that kind of a bitterness each day would be really pretty rough on me. It's just -- like I said, it's a process they are going through. I didn't ask for anybody to be fired or let go or for (INAUDIBLE) to do their report to be done. Eastern is taking care of their own business and that's what needs to happen. Every university needs to look at their own businesses and see if they've got their plans and everything together, too.
KING: Have they formally apologized to you?
DICKINSON: President Fallon and his wife did come to the coffee shop in Hastings with me. And we sat and talked for about an hour and he did apologize personally to Deb and myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: He's quite a guy.
J. FALLON: That's characteristic Bob Dickinson.
KING: What do you want, John?
J. FALLON: I want to clear my name. I'm not a liar. My 34- year career in higher education was based on a foundation of integrity and ethics and honesty. And my friends and colleagues from throughout the country who have been in touch with me say they don't know the details, they are not familiar with this situation, but it just can't be true. It doesn't sink with our understanding of you. So I want to clear my name, and I want to go to work. We have a lot...
KING: You want to get another job?
J. FALLON: Yes. We have a lot to do. We have a lot of energy. We have a lot of work ethic and a lot of spirit. And we have a lot of work yet to do just not sure where.
KING: Thank you for coming forward and keep us posted.
J. FALLON: You bet.
KING: Thank you very much.
S. FALLON: Thank you.
KING: Up next, the self-admitted pedophile who gives advice to other pedophiles online. You've got to hear this to believe it. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STACEY BUTLER, KCAL REPORTER: You don't see what you are doing as wrong?
JACK MCCLELLAN, PEDOPHILE: No. I mean, obviously I'm not doing anything illegal at these things. I mean if they passed a law saying you can't go to these things to admire kids, I mean I guess I'd have to obey that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE, Vice President Dick Cheney. He maybe the most powerful and controversial vice president in modern U.S. history, answering some tough questions with the Bush administration under siege over Iraq and more. Vice president Cheney tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCLELLAN: It really isn't just a sexual thing it's the whole ambience of children that I enjoy.
BUTLER: Jack McClellan isn't afraid to tell you how he feels about little girls. Are you a pedophile?
MCCLELLAN: Yes. I didn't even consider myself one until a couple years ago. I started reading some of the stuff on the internet and it kind of resonated with me, kind of referred to ourselves as the silent majority.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.
Stacey Butler is here with us, the KCAL reporter who interviewed Jack McClellan, interviewed him again today; and in buffalo, New York is Ron Tebo who founded an anti-Jack McClellan Web site just to warn people about him.
How did you come upon this story, Stacey?
BUTLER: We were following this story when it was in Washington and found...
KING: The State of Washington?
BUTLER: The State of Washington. He disappeared from there. I had some sources that suspected he might turn up in Los Angeles and sure enough he did.
KING: What does he do? He does what? He goes on a Web site and does what? BUTLER: He goes onto the website and he promotes pedophilia. He tells other...
KING: That pedophilia is good?
BUTLER: He says it's good. He says that there's nothing wrong with it. He says it's completely legal. And he tells -- he rates events, public events like fairs, on a scale of one to five hearts. It's like a movie rating.
KING: How to meet someone?
BUTLER: How to meet little girls, how to meet the cutest, little girls.
KING: But he doesn't do it? He doesn't go and meet little girls?
BUTLER: He likes to watch them and he says that he has never touched one.
KING: Ron, it's weird, kind of unusual, kind of horrible in a sense, but how is it -- it's not illegal, is it, Ron?
RON TEBO, LAUNCHED ANTI-MCCLELLAN WEBSITE: You know, Larry, I'm not an expert with the legalities, but as far as I know what I'm hearing in all the letters that I'm receiving, no, it's not. I mean it is his First Amendment right to -- no matter how horrible it is, I mean, it's his First Amendment right and he's pushing the envelope.
KING: So what are you promoting but having an anti-McClellan website, hoping to what?
TEBO: I'm hoping to warn people. I want to warn the millions and millions of people that are out there right now about this man, about his actions. They're despicable. I mean, the adjectives, I have to be careful about the adjectives that I want to choose to describe this man because this is a family show.
But Miss Butler is fantastic and she's right. I mean if we just want to warn people, you can you go to my Web site and actually download a photo. And I'm getting a lot of hits on the Web site from parent, educators, downloading the photos and passing these photos out in their community to warn people.
KING: What is your Web site?
TEBO: JackMcClellan.com. That's my Web site. I took his name. I was disgusted by him. And I'm...
KING: Well, wait a minute, what's his Web site?
BUTLER: It's changed.
KING: Oh, he changed it.
KING: It's not his own name?
BUTLER: It was LosAngelesgirllove.
KING: Girl Love.
BUTLER: He's trying to get a carrier that...
KING: Do you have a danger here, Ron, of focusing more attention on him?
TEBO: I don't think so, Larry. I mean I've thought about that and I've been asked that but however I'd rather focus on him to warn the public. And that's exactly what I'm doing.
I'm putting up -- not only am I concentrating on Jack, but, you know, I went a step further, Larry, which is very important. I'm warning patients about safety, about issues about safety and how easy it is for a child to be manipulated. And there are some videos that I have included that Miss Butler has probably visited my site and safety issues, concentrating on -- we need to concentrate on safety for the children. Teach our children safety.
KING: Stacey, you didn't show his full face but I understand today you did?
BUTLER: Yes, today we spoke with him again. I wanted to talk to him, get his response to the police bulletin that was issued. He took some issue with that. He did not like his identity being out there for everyone to see on those photographs. So we talked to him today, and he did remove his hat and...
KING: We don't have that yet. But he did remove his hat and you showed him?
BUTLER: Yes, we -- he has his sunglasses on.
KING: He's also mad as Santa Monica?
BUTLER: He's mad at Santa Monica. He says that they made him look like a child molester.
KING: What's his point?
BUTLER: He wants to be the voice of the First Amendment. He wants people to know that you can be a, you know, pedophile and not act on it.
KING: OK. What does that get you? You're a what? You're a non-active pedophile.
BUTLER: You're a celibate pedophile.
KING: How then are you a danger?
BUTLER: He doesn't consider himself a danger at all.
KING: If you don't act, you can't stop a man from thinking, right?
BUTLER: That's right.
KING: Ron, what worries you if he doesn't do anything?
TEBO: Oh, he's made some startling admissions. I mean you just look at the Web sites. On Rick Robert's show, I mean he made a startling admission. The man has an attraction for little girls between the ages of 3 and 11. How normal is that? That's not normal. He...
KING: What did he admit to?
BUTLER: Where do you want to start?
KING: Well, give me one example. What did he admit to, Stacey -- Ron?
TEBO: Yes, sir. I will say he was being interviewed with Rick Roberts. He did a fantastic job. And he had asked Jack, "Jack, you're attracted to girls between the ages of 3 and 11?" And he said, "Yes." Rick Roberts asked him, "Well, how come not before 3? Why not younger?" And he came out and basically said, "I don't like the diapers." I mean that's what he said. And it's...
KING: Let me get a break. It's getting weird. We'll be back with some more on this after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUTLER: We found McClellan living out of his car near Venice Beach mapping out local events to attend where little girls or LGs as he calls them are plentiful. What about those events do you like?
MCCLELLAN: Just to be out -- well, obviously just going there mainly to be around the kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with Stacey Butler of KCAL and Ron Tebo, who founded the anti-Jack McClellan Web site.
Are we giving this more attention, Stacey? What's the defense of the attention?
BUTLER: All right, the good part of this is that parents out there can realize that these kinds of people exist. He told me that he considers himself a part of the silent majority.
KING: Which means that mass group of pedophiles?
BUTLER: There you go. And if you consider that there are hundreds of millions...
KING: I don't mean to laugh but that's...
BUTLER: Well, it -- you know it is what it is. And if you consider there are hundreds of millions of Web sites out there, his Web site ranks around in the millionth.
BUTLER: He is getting a lot of hits. Who knows it's -- if it's because of all of the attention lately.
KING: Ron, doesn't that bug you?
TEBO: Not at all. I'm doing better, you know. People Google Jack McClellan, they're going right to my site. I'm taking his traffic. I really don't care. I mean I'm stealing his traffic and my Web site is doing a lot better than his. And people are more interested in becoming proactive and like Miss Butler said parents are becoming aware. I mean there are 100 other Jacks for every Jack that exists, unfortunately.
KING: We're close on time, Stacey. Where did he come from, McClellan? YOU said Washington but like out of the blue?
BUTLER: Yes. Actually he's from Los Angeles.
BUTLER: Originally from L.A. He has a couple other aliases but he mostly goes by Jack McClellan, clean record.
KING: Do you believe he's a pedophile?
BUTLER: Oh, Larry, I can't say. Let's just say that any police detective will tell you that most of the pedophiles that are caught have perpetrated countless times on victims before they ever actually become a registered sex offender.
KING: Have you ever come across anyone who says he is but isn't?
BUTLER: Good question. I hope not.
KING: I hope not either. Thanks, Stacey.
BUTLER: Thank you, Larry.
KING: Stacey Butler, the KCAL reporter who interviewed Jack McClellan; and Ron Tebo who founded the anti-Jack McClellan website.
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