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Nancy Grace
Two Children Die in Hot Car While Mother Works
Aired July 31, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Charleston, South Carolina, the suburbs, a 27-year-old mother of two, dressed in hospital scrubs and handcuffs, escorted from the hospital straight to jail. Why? Police say 1-year-old Triniti, 4-year-old Shawn died a painful death when left trapped in soaring temperatures in mom`s car. Accident? Hold on! After mom makes a solo run to Arby`s for her own dinner, police find the children in garbage bags, dead under the kitchen sink. Hope you enjoyed that roast beef sandwich, Mom, because it`s jail food tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two young children are dead after police say they were left inside their mom`s car for hours while she worked. It`s still unclear where they died, but the temperature soared to 88 degrees outside the car. Law enforcement says it didn`t stop there, though. After coming back from work, 27-year-old Sametta Heyward is accused of putting her kids in garbage bags and dumping them under her kitchen sink.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, an urban myth seems to come true. That`s right, stealing human organs. Stealing human organs? A 25-year-old young man`s health declining, but does a seemingly overzealous organ donor doctor finish him off ahead of time to harvest the remaining healthy organs? A well-known doctor allegedly gives the patient a shot of anti-bacterial betadine mixed with morphine to speed the death process.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say this California surgeon did something you might see in a horror movie, not a hospital. Dr. Hootan Roozrokh, is accused of giving death an illegal push when a man didn`t die fast enough to donate his organs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The San Luis Obispo County DA filed three felony charges against San Francisco-based Dr. Hootan Roozrokh. Last January, Navarro went to Sierra Vista Regional Medical Center. He was in cardiac arrest. Doctors didn`t think he was going to make it. His mom took him off life support. The transplant team was called in. Dr. Roozrokh was the head of the team. Navarro continued to breathe on his own for seven hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The doctor faces up to eight years in prison if he`s convicted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First to South Carolina. Her two children apparently die and she heads to dinner at Arby`s?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two young children are dead after police say they were left inside their mom`s car for hours while she worked. It`s still unclear where they died, but the temperature soared to 88 degrees outside the car. Law enforcement says it didn`t stop there, though. After coming back from work, 27-year-old Sametta Heyward is accused of putting her kids in garbage bags and dumping them under her kitchen sink.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The two children found dead under the kitchen sink, apparently left alone in the car while a mom went to work, the temperatures soaring there in Charleston, South Carolina. But that`s not the end of it. Why did mom then go on a solo dining trip to Arby`s?
Straight out to Andy Paras with "The Post and Courier" there in Charleston, South Carolina. What happened, Andy?
ANDY PARAS, "POST AND COURIER": How`re you doing, Nancy? Apparently, what authorities say is she couldn`t find anyone to watch her children for her, so she went to work and brought her children with her and left them in the car.
GRACE: What were the temperatures that day, Andy Paras?
PARAS: From what I understand, they were about 88 degrees.
GRACE: Eighty-eight degrees outside the car. Where did she work, Andy?
PARAS: She worked for Charleston County Disabilities Board.
GRACE: She worked for a disabilities board? As what? What did she do?
PARAS: I understand she worked with people with disabilities.
GRACE: As a?
PARAS: Just -- she helped them rehab, from what I understand.
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Mike Brooks. Mike, the temperature outside, 88 degrees. What would that translate inside a locked car with the windows rolled up?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I tell you what, Nancy. Right outside -- I was just down in Charleston a couple weeks ago, and 88 degrees down there -- high humidity, windows rolled up, it could go up into the hundreds of degrees, you know, if it was sitting out in the sunshine.
Now, Hanahan, South Carolina, is 15 miles from downtown Charleston, where she worked. So she went all the way downtown to Charleston and apparently drove home. These children were in the car all day long. Nobody knows -- we don`t know right now if she went out to check on these children at all. The police are trying to put together a timeline.
But Berkeley County prosecutors -- Berkeley County is the county which Hanahan is located. They have charged her with two counts of homicide by child abuse. There`s been no bond hearing yet because they still want to try to find out exactly what her mental state is.
GRACE: Hey, Mike, take a look at the children. These are home videos of the two little children, Triniti and Shawn, dancing and playing there in it looks like their bedroom -- very healthy. They`re apparently dancing to some music, playing. She`s playing with a little stuffed toy. Hard to take in the type of death that they had.
Continue, Mike. I just wanted the viewers to know what they were seeing.
BROOKS: No, I tell you, Nancy, it`s very hard to look the at this, knowing what these children went through Monday during the day in downtown Charleston, inside their mother`s car. But after she got home, apparently, she drove back 15 miles back to Hanahan. The children -- we don`t know exactly -- law enforcement does not know if the children died there in the car or if she brought them home and they died in the plastic bags under her sink where they put -- where he put -- where she put them. Then, from there, apparently, she went to Arby`s and...
GRACE: Wait, wait! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wa-wait! Mike, did I just hear you say they don`t have down the timeline? You mean these children may have been alive when she stuffed them under the sink or when they were stuffed under the sink?
BROOKS: There`s that possibility, Nancy. They still do not know the cause of death. They`re trying to put together the exact timeline. The coroner can`t say for sure whether or not they died there in the car or exactly when they died. So again, I`m just putting out that possibility. If they didn`t die in the car, Nancy, there`s a possibility they could have died back at the apartment. So you`re going to have...
GRACE: So while she was at Arby`s?
BROOKS: There`s that...
GRACE: If they were still alive...
BROOKS: Right.
GRACE: ... she could have saved their life.
BROOKS: There`s that possibility, Nancy, but we still do not know. They`re waiting for toxicology reports to come back which will give the coroner more information from the toxicology reports on exactly, you know, when they died and exactly how they died. But they still do not know. But police were called to the apartment for a disturbance. When police got there, she was being held by a man, and she was just a basket case.
GRACE: Take a listen to this, Mike Brooks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Autopsies are scheduled today on the bodies of two young children found wrapped in trash bags under an apartment sink near Charleston, South Carolina. Police say their mother had left her 1-year- old daughter and 4-year-old son in her car while she was at work. Temperatures in Charleston hit 88 degrees yesterday. Detectives say the mother was distraught. She was taken to a hospital after supposedly talking about hurting herself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sametta Heyward just arrived here at the Hanahan Police Department. We`re told she has been charged with two counts of homicide by child abuse. She arrived barefoot, in her hospital gown. We are told she has been discharged from Trident Medical Center. That`s where she`s been held since last night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Andy Paras joining us. He`s a reporter at "The Post and Courier" there in Charleston, South Carolina. Andy Paras, how long do police believe that she worked that day with the children in the car?
PARAS: I understand she may have worked an eight-hour shift.
GRACE: Eight-hour shift. At any time, is there evidence she came out to check on the children?
PARAS: That`s not known at this time.
GRACE: And Andy, were they belted into a car seat?
PARAS: That`s also not known at this time.
GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks. What do we know? If the child was belted into a car seat, that`s one thing, a la Susan Smith`s children. They couldn`t possibly get out. But the 4-year-old, could he have gotten out of the car?
BROOKS: There`s a good possibility, Nancy. You know how precocious some 4-year-olds are. And whether or not they were able to -- whether or not he was able to get out of this car seat, it`s not known.
But one of the things, as an investigator, I can tell you police are going to be looking for, Nancy -- they`re going to go back to work. They`re going to talk to the people she worked with, her co-workers, to try to find out exactly what her state of mind when all of this was going on was. And you know, did she go out to the car to check on them? You know, is it one of these things where she`s going to claim, Oh, I forgot they were in the car because I didn`t -- the sitter didn`t come, so I had to take them to the car? Oh, I forgot they were in there. We`ve heard that story before.
But apparently, she`s already lawyered up, and apparently, she is not talking to anyone because her lawyer has told her not to. She`s already got legal counsel.
GRACE: A 27-year-old mom goes straight from the hospital dressed in scrubs and handcuffs to the local jail, police now charging her in the deaths of these two beautiful toddlers, ages 1 and 4. Did she leave them in a car with soaring temperatures all day long when she couldn`t get day care and then leave them discarded in the trash under her kitchen sink while she dined at Arby`s?
Out to the lines. Debbie in Virginia. Hi Debbie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, does she have a history of mental illness?
GRACE: Excellent question. Mike Brooks, I tried to find that out myself, and so far, I turned up nothing.
GRACE: You and I both, Nancy. I was trying to find out from law enforcement sources in South Carolina, but they`re not saying exactly what, if any, mental history she has. I was also trying to find out if she had any history with DFACS in South Carolina but was unable to find that out also.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Daniel Spitz, medical examiner and forensic pathologist. He is an expert in his field. Dr. Spitz, if these children died of heat exhaustion, or heat stroke, as it is commonly called, what is that exactly?
DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, heat stroke basically is when the body temperature rises to the range of about 105 degrees. And the body is able to compensate for elevated temperatures up to a certain point, but once the temperature maintains itself at 105 or even goes higher than that, certain things happen to the body. Mainly, it`s neurologic. They become disoriented, confused, delusional. Seizures can develop. And ultimately, multi-organ failure occurs and the individual dies.
GRACE: What do you mean? Explain "multi-organ failure occurs."
SPITZ: Well, multi-organ failure means that because of the extreme temperatures, the heart begins to function inappropriately. Cardiac arhythmias or abnormal heartbeats occur. Respiratory failure begins. And then, obviously, the neurologic symptoms that I mentioned earlier.
GRACE: Let me go out to Sheryce Robertson joining us. She is a friend and neighbor of the accused tonight, Sametta Heyward. Sheryce, thank you for being with us. Describe the family.
SHERYCE ROBERTSON, FRIEND AND NEIGHBOR: They were an awesome family, Nancy. They -- you know, the babies were always happy. Sametta was always in a good mood. She cooked three meals a day for them. And when I say cooked, she didn`t just stick cereal and cold milk, she cooked three meals a day, breakfast, lunch and dinner, Nancy. They were an awesome family. I don`t know what could have drove this to this point, but I know she`s a great person. And she would have gave anybody the shirt off her back.
GRACE: Tell me about...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What was her job that she felt she could not take the children into work. And she didn`t have day care, so she left them locked in the car. What kind of job was worth that?
ROBERTSON: There was no job, Nancy, worth, that, period, OK? And as far as her leaving the kids in the car, whatnot, I was under the impression that she was taking them to their aunt`s house that day. But I don`t know what drove her to that -- that situation.
GRACE: Where did they normally stay during the day, Ms. Robertson?
ROBERTSON: During the day? She works third shift, so during the day, they`re with her.
GRACE: OK. While she`s at work, where do they normally stay?
ROBERTSON: At the aunt`s house, at her aunt`s house.
GRACE: Have you spoken to her since this incident?
ROBERTSON: No, ma`am. I have not been able to -- to get ahold of her.
GRACE: With me, exclusive guest tonight, Sheryce Robertson. She is Sametta Heyward`s friend and neighbor, said she was a good mom, always made her kids three home-cooked meals a day. Were you there the night of the arrest?
ROBERTSON: Yes, ma`am. They had already arrested her whenever I was able to get to the location.
GRACE: What did you learn after her arrest? What was said?
ROBERTSON: There was a lot of speculation and rumors. You know, we didn`t get a bottom line at all until today, Nancy.
GRACE: Question. There on the scene, was it ever stated the children died in the car, or did they die there under the kitchen sink?
ROBERTSON: From what I understand Nancy, what I`ve heard, is that they died in the car.
GRACE: I guess from the heat.
Out to the lines. Roger in Virginia. Hi Roger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I was wondering if the children were found inside a parking garage or out in the street? I would have thought if they were out in the street, there would have been a pedestrian that would have saw something or maybe tried to help these two poor innocent children.
GRACE: You mean, were they ever spotted out in the car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry?
GRACE: Are you asking, Roger, did anyone spot them in the car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was wondering, yes, if they were outdoors or maybe inside a parking garage.
GRACE: Oh, excellent question. Mike Brooks, do you know anything about the parking conditions there where she works? Was it out in the sun?
BROOKS: Don`t know for sure, Nancy. Don`t know if it was in a parking garage or outside. That would make a big difference, you know, again, if these kids were in the car, in direct sunlight, or if they were somewhere in the shade. But you know, it`s just a shame that they had to remain inside the car.
One of the other things investigators will probably look at, Nancy, having just been to Charleston, in the downtown area, there`s a number of businesses with surveillance cameras, those kind of things. But apparently, no one noticed these children inside the car because, you know, cops receive calls all the time during the summer about children inside of a closed vehicle, you know, along with dogs inside of a closed vehicle. But these poor children, what they must have gone through had to be horrible.
GRACE: You know, though, I`m thinking about it, Mike Brooks, and inside a parking deck, even though it may be covered, typically, you know, the windows, especially in the South -- the window portion is open in a lot of parking decks. You don`t always have a cement or brick wall. From, say, the waist up, it`s open. I can just imagine that Charleston sun coming in.
BROOKS: Well, you know, Nancy, also, in downtown Charleston, there aren`t a lot of parking structures such as that. Most of them are there on the street because, you know, the old downtown Charleston area. And so, you know, most likely, it would have been that they were outside in the open.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. It is Dr. George Oliver, deputy coroner in Berkeley County, South Carolina. Sir, thank you for being with us.
GEORGE OLIVER, DEPUTY CORONER, BERKELEY COUNTY, SOUTH CAROLINA: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Dr. Oliver, what can you tell us about the children`s cause of death as of tonight?
OLIVER: Well, let me just first say I`m not a doctor. I am the deputy coroner in Berkeley County. And it appears that at this time, the autopsy was completed today on both of the children, and it`s left as pending, meaning there`s further tests need to be performed in order to determine the exact cause of death.
GRACE: I see.
OLIVER: So at this point, it is still pending.
GRACE: What other tests are left to do, Mr. Oliver?
OLIVER: Toxicology, as well as electrolyte tests, are going to be performed.
GRACE: What does that mean, an electrolyte test, and what does it show?
OLIVER: The electrolyte test, from my understanding, has determined the dehydration level of the children from exposure.
GRACE: Oh, I see. Hold on. With me, George Oliver, the deputy coroner there in Berkeley County, South Carolina. That is where the autopsies on these two little toddlers are being performed.
I want to go back to Dr. Daniel Spitz. Doctor, the electrolyte test, what will that show?
SPITZ: Well, first of all, the electrolyte test is done on the fluid that is removed from the eye, as opposed to the blood on a live person. So the testing of the eye fluid will tell you the status of the hydration level. If you look at the electrolytes, you can tell whether the children were very dehydrated as a result of their hyperthermia.
GRACE: Back to George Oliver, the deputy coroner there in Berkeley County, South Carolina. Mr. Oliver, there`s been a lot of confusion as to the timeline. Do police believe the children died in the car, at the home, or did they die at some other time?
OLIVER: We believe, at this point, that the children did expire while in the vehicle and were removed from the vehicle and placed into the home.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Cassandra in Florida. Hi, Cassandra.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Who is the father of the children?
GRACE: Excellent question. Back to George Oliver, the deputy coroner. Has a father emerged, Mr. Oliver?
OLIVER: We have not made contact with the father at this time. We have a name, but we don`t have an address or a telephone number or any known whereabouts of the father at this time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police near Charleston, South Carolina, have found the bodies of a 4-year-old boy and a 1-year-old girl in trash bags under the sink of an apartment. Police say the mother was taken to a hospital after she talked about hurting herself. The Berkeley County, South Carolina, coroner said she left the kids in a hot car all day while she went to work yesterday. An autopsy has been scheduled to determine what caused the deaths.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She goes and dines at Arby`s by herself after putting her kids under the kitchen sink, according to the deputy coroner, they believe the two children expired in a brutally hot car, locked in while she went to an eight-hour shift at work.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Mickey Sherman and Rebecca Rose Woodland (ph). Susan Moss, what a way to die for a toddler, trapped in a car.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Something smells in this case, and it`s not the day-old Arby`s. Some of this just doesn`t make any sense. A 4-year-old and a 1-year-old, you can imagine that they might have been screaming. How in a downtown area of Charleston did no one see or hear anything? And the mom going back to the car and finding her two children dead, yet being calm enough to go and eat a meal at Arby`s? It makes no sense. I have a feeling we`re going to learn a lot more about the tragic ends of these two children.
GRACE: Mickey Sherman, if you`re gearing up to plead some sort of temporary insanity or mental defect -- to take the children, remove them from the car, place them in trash bags, hide them under the kitchen sink, close the cabinet, then go crank the car up and go get dinner and eat?
(CROSSTALK)
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, you know, it`s neither insanity or mental defect. She freaked out. And you know, I think the most important...
GRACE: Freaked out is not a legal defense.
SHERMAN: Totally.
SHERMAN: Well, you know, the problem is...
GRACE: Freaked out is not in the code!
SHERMAN: The problem with the prosecution here is that we`ve heard from the neighbor, the next-door neighbor, about the kind of mother she was. And apparently, she has no history of this. She freaked out. She made a mistake and screwed up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We responded to a disturbance at the Willows (ph) Apartments on Remount (ph) Road. Officers arrived on scene. They saw a female in a struggle with an unknown subject. That male directed the officers to check inside the cabinet, at which time the bodies of two small children were discovered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And after the kids were brought in from a stifling hot car dead, according to authorities, she wrapped them in garbage bags and put them under the kitchen sink, then took off to Arby`s for her own dinner.
To Gloria in Georgia. Hi, Gloria.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is -- the children -- the mother was in the -- at work and was arrested. The children were under the sink. How did they know that the children were dead? Who reported it?
GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s get that timeline down. Mike Brooks, the mom comes home from work, apparently puts the kids under the kitchen sink, goes to Arby`s, comes back, we get a 911 disturbance call. What happens?
BROOKS: Law enforcement officers got to the scene of the apartment and they saw her in a struggle with some man. And he told them -- he said, The children are in bags under the sink. And then police had to subdue her. She apparently was trying to bite the officers, and she told them that she wanted to die and asked police to kill her, Nancy. She was just apparently totally distraught, went totally berserk. And police had to restrain her before they took her to the hospital.
GRACE: So let me get this straight. After the Arby`s roast beef sandwich, OK, she somehow creates a disturbance so loud that police are called?
BROOKS: Well, it`s not known. And that`s part of the timeline. They don`t know exactly what time this guy got there, if he discovered it, and then -- or -- then she all of a sudden realized what she`d done. They don`t know yet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We responded to a disturbance at the Willows Apartments on Remount Road. Officers arrived on scene. They saw a female in a struggle with an unknown subject. That male directed the officers to check inside the cabinet, at which time the bodies of two small children were discovered.
Early speculation is that she took the children with her to work, didn`t have any care for the children, and left them in the car. So that`s one possible instance that we`re investigating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now police arrived to the home, the two children, toddlers, ages 1 and 4, found under the kitchen sink, apparently dying of heat stroke. Locked in a car while their mom worked, then went out to Arby`s. I want to go to a very special guest joining us. Janette Fennell, president and founder of kidsincars.org.
Janette, when you heard this story, what was your reaction?
JANETTE FENNEL, PRES. & FOUNDER, KIDSINCARS.ORG: Well, my reaction was pretty violent. It just -- these are the 17th and 18th children we know of that have died in hot cars so far this year. But there`s so many things about this story that are very disturbing.
GRACE: What?
FENNELL: Well, I mean, one of the questions as I`ve been listening to everything is I`m trying to figure out, the neighbor had said that she worked at night. But this all happened during the day. Did she have a change of shift?
GRACE: I don`t know. I want to ask -- I`ll find out right now. To you, special guest joining us tonight is Hayward`s friend and neighbor, Sheryce Robertson. Did she have a change in shift? What were her work hours?
SHERYCE ROBERTSON, SAMETTA HEYWARD`S FRIEND & NEIGHBOR: Her work hours generally were 10:00 to 6:30 in the morning. She had to pull an extra shift that day, was supposed to go in at 3:00 and get off at 6:30 the next morning.
GRACE: So how long would that have left the children in the car?
ROBERTSON: Approximately 15 hours.
GRACE: OK. We were basing all this on an eight-hour work day. Back to Janette Fennell with Kidsincars. How dangerous is it to leave your kids in cars?
FENNELL: Well, it`s absolutely dangerous. And you know, when you were talking the temperature being 88 degrees, as the heat, you know, goes up, it`s really like putting someone in a greenhouse. And I would guess the temperatures in that vehicle were anywhere from 130 to 140 degrees.
GRACE: Janette, tell me how this became your cause. How did you get involved in this?
FENNELL: Well, we originally got into this whole safety issue when my husband and I were kidnapped and we were locked in the trunk of our car. And all this happened when we had no idea what had happened to our then 9- month-old baby.
But we were able to get a federal regulation passed such that now if anybody, victim of a crime or an innocent child playing hide and seek, gets stuck in the trunk of a car, they have a means of escape.
GRACE: What do you believe is the appropriate punishment in this case, if these facts are true, Janette?
FENNELL: Well, you know, there`s a big range here. And the range goes from, you know, put the mother away for many, many, many years. Then there`s a certain court of law that says there`s nothing you can do to the mother that`s going to make her suffer more than what she did to her own children.
But the truth is going to be found out somewhere in between those two extremes. And it does sound like there`s a lot of questions that are still open about this case. But I don`t understand that after -- if she did find the children dead in the vehicle, why she didn`t rush them to an emergency room.
GRACE: Back out to the lawyers. Susan Moss, Mickey Sherman, Rebecca Rose Woodland. As I recall, South Carolina is a death penalty state. This is considered under the law to be a mass murder. More than one body. And if the time scenario is as we are told, and she puts the children under her kitchen sink dead, then goes out for dinner, that`s extremely cold and callous. How do you save the client`s life?
REBECCA ROSE WOODLAND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t know -- here, it doesn`t -- nothing is adding up. She was in at work for 15 hours? I`m so disturbed by this I can`t even speak straight. That these young children were in a car that was 130 degrees?
She was a medical person, she worked and rehabs people but didn`t know not to leave her children in a car for that amount of time? For any amount of time. You don`t leave children in a car.
It is so offensive and disturbing. I can`t believe that she wasn`t mentally ill. I can`t imagine a person, let alone the mother of a child, doing this. So I don`t know, Mickey, maybe there is some sort of mental defense there.
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But you know, the problem is, you don`t need to take a license to become a parent. You`re allowed to be incredibly stupid and negligent and still be a parent. There`s no judge, no prosecutor who`s going to ask for the death penalty here. And as for the woman who.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
SHERMAN: No way. There`s no way.
GRACE: I disagree.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Leaving a child locked in a car in temperatures well over 100 degrees for possibly 15 hours? Then coming in, putting them under your kitchen counter where you put your trash, Mickey Sherman, and going out for dinner?
SHERMAN: You know, we don`t know she went out for dinner.
GRACE: No, we do know she went out for dinner.
SHERMAN: No, I`ll bet you there`s a part two to the story that we haven`t heard.
GRACE: You`ll bet. OK. You know what, I`m not going to go argue Mickey Sherman bets to a judge or a jury. Mickey Sherman thinks maybe she -- well, where did the Arby`s fit in?
SHERMAN: God only knows. The bottom line is.
GRACE: That`s the best you`ve got, God only knows?
SHERMAN: We know she wasn`t out flamenco dancing, OK?
GRACE: I know what you`re doing. You`re trying to get around the fact -- Susan moss, throw you a bone here. Sherman wisely, wisely is trying to get -- distance himself from the fact that she took herself out for dinner with her kids laying under the kitchen sink.
(CROSSTALK)
SHERMAN: It doesn`t reconcile with her having been totally flipping out and asking to die in the police.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, that`s your theory. That only happened later when they found the bodies -- when somebody else found the bodies. Then suddenly she wants to die.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTY. & CHILD ADVOCATE: The only part two to Arby`s was dessert. If you look at this woman`s intentional acts, they show something more than just a mom making a horrible mistake.
SHERMAN: But look at her history.
MOSS: What history?
SHERMAN: Look at her next-door neighbor.
(CROSSTALK)
MOSS: But look at what her acts are. She took these kids and put them in garbage bags.
SHERMAN: She flipped out. She didn`t know what to do.
MOSS: She then moved the garbage bags into under the sink, presumably where she keeps her other trash.
(CROSSTALK)
MOSS: And she goes out to dinner. Never calling an authority, never calling a friend, never calling anyone.
SHERMAN: She flipped out.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let`s go to someone that knows suspect. Back out to Heyward`s friend and neighbor, Sheryce Robertson.
Ms. Robertson, does she have any history of mental illness or departure from the norm?
ROBERTSON: No, Nancy. No -- no, no, no. And you know, everyone`s like, well, she was just an awful person that put her kids in a car. It was -- I`m sure it wasn`t like that and I`m sure that when she found them like that, she probably just panicked and didn`t know who or what to do.
And as far as her it putting her kids where she put her other trash, I don`t think it was anything like that. I think at that point, it was a nervous breakdown. She didn`t know what to do or who to turn to, you know, Nancy.
And I just can`t let these people sit here and run her in the dirt. That`s impossible. Because she was an awesome person. She would have gave you the shirt off her back. The things that happened and the choices she made is not for anybody to judge her. She needs to be judged by God. That`s between her and God, Nancy.
I realize that there is, you know, a judicial system and that she has to go through the processes. But I want everyone to know that this was not somebody that just hated her kids and she intentionally killed them, because that`s not the case. And I know it`s not.
GRACE: You know what? What you`re saying may very well be true. That she had been a loving and caring mother. However, I know you`re her friend. But how do you reconcile the children being placed under the kitchen sink, and her going out to dinner?
ROBERTSON: You know, Nancy, I don`t think it was like she went and just put them underneath the counter and she went to dinner. I don`t know how all that went down, or even when the time lines were, because they`re still not confirmed.
You know, and there`s still not anything confirmed on how they died or anything like that. The coroner`s report obviously, you know, you heard they have more tests to run. And before I speculate on anything like that, you know, I just have to say she`s a great person.
And yes, some bad things did happen. And I do miss the babies and I do miss the children because they were like my own too, Nancy. So I have two sides of this. Yes, I have a friend in this. But I also have two children that are dead. So I really don`t know which way to go. Right now it`s more shock than anything.
GRACE: You know what, Sheryce, you are very good friend and I know that you are looking for every possible bit of evidence that goes toward -- to innocence. And I respect that.
ROBERTSON: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: I want to go to Leslie Austin, psychotherapist.
Leslie, I couldn`t find a babysitter. How is that going to play?
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Nancy, none of us know what she was thinking or feeling when she discovered those kids were dead. We don`t know what she was thinking when she left them in the car.
I have to agree with Mickey and Sheryce, this smells to me like tragic, awful stupidity and ignorance that ended in murder and then she completely panicked and freaked out. Going to Arby`s, that to me is shock. That is shock behavior. That`s not callous and casual.
GRACE: Right. To George Oliver, the deputy coroner.
When do you think you`ll have that autopsy report, sir?
GEORGE OLIVER, DEPUTY CORONER, BERKELEY CO., S.C.: The toxicology is going to be the lengthiest part of it, waiting on that to get back. That could take weeks. But as soon as that gets back we will make it available.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In what prosecutors say is the first criminal case of its kind in the U.S., a California doctor is accused of giving a severely disabled man an excessive amount of drugs in order to harvest his organs. State law bans transplant doctors from treating donors before they`re dead.
The coroner said the man died of natural causes and his organs couldn`t be used because the patient didn`t die within 30 minutes of being removed from life support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: An urban myth seems to come true. That myth of having organs illegally stolen from your body. That`s exactly what is being alleged against a renowned doctor. I want to go out to Sarah Arnquist, the reporter with The San Luis Obispo Tribune.
Sarah, thank you for being with us. What are the allegations?
SARAH ARNQUIST, REPORTER, THE SAN LUIS OBISPO TRIBUNE: The allegations are that a San Francisco, a transplant surgeon allegedly gave a patient too much medicine to hasten his death in order to harvest the organs.
GRACE: Sarah Arnquist is joining us from The San Luis Obispo Tribune. The medication you`re referring to, isn`t one of the things allegedly injected into this young man Betadine? That`s an antiseptic, that`s that brownish-reddish stuff they put on your body before they cut you or perform surgery.
ARNQUIST: It is alleged that he was administered Betadine before he died.
GRACE: Administered intravenously, with a shot, with a syringe.
ARNQUIST: Through a feeding tube.
GRACE: Through a feeding tube. Now, it`s my understanding, and I want to go to Dr. Daniel Spitz, medical examiner and pathologist, Betadine is an antiseptic that you put on the skin like alcohol. Why would that be put in a feeding tube?
DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER & PATHOLOGIST: Well, it would be put in a feeding tube because this man essentially is being prepared for organ donation. The idea was that he was going to be removed from life support and his organs were going to be harvested for transplant.
So the transplant surgeon was giving him that Betadine through the NG tube in order to prepare the process of removing the organs.
GRACE: I thought you did that after the person died.
SPITZ: Well, it`s not necessarily after. It`s in the process of death. And essentially this person was in the process of death.
GRACE: Oh, really?
SPITZ: It just so happens that his death took longer.
GRACE: Then how come was he alive the next morning?
SPITZ: Well, the process of dying in this case took longer than expected so his organs couldn`t be used.
GRACE: OK. Back out to Lawrence Carter-Long, he is the director of advocacy for the Disabilities Network of New York City. And you may recognize him as I do from being the poster child for cerebral palsy.
I`m a long-time fan of yours. Thank you for being with us.
LAWRENCE CARTER-LONG, DIR. OF ADVOCACY, DISABILITIES NETWORK, NYC: Thank you, Nancy. Thanks for having us on.
GRACE: Yes, sir. Sir, he didn`t die. I don`t believe I would want myself or one of my family members injected with Betadine. It`s a topical antiseptic. He lived.
CARTER-LONG: Well, there are a lot of questions about this case that really need to be answered. For one, it didn`t come out until much later when the report was filed but there were six -- up to six other people, medical professionals, in the room at the time who were disturbed by what they saw happening with this surgeon and with the nurse who was apparently administering the drugs.
Now, none of them felt compelled though to speak out at the time. This didn`t come out until later. My question here is, who is speaking out for Ruben Navarro`s best interests? Physicians are supposed to have a creed that says, first, do no harm. Harm to whom?
Nobody was looking out for his best interests here. And he died prematurely based on what act? What was the rationale here? Were they trying to make it easier for themselves in prepping him for the transplant? Were they trying to save some money?
You know, what seems queer to me in the course of this case, is that even if you have, let`s say, a family member or parent who you think is able to advocate for your best interests, that may not save you. You know, that patient advocate, that parent may not be in the room at the same time that the procedure is being done.
So what we really need to look at here are the quote-unquote "medical ethics" of this case and try to find the real reasons behind it.
GRACE: This young man, Ruben Navarro, just 25 years old, his health was failing. Was he hastened along by a doctor who wanted his organs for transplant? We`ll be right back with the victim`s family attorney.
But first, "CNN Heroes."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DINA ABDEL WAHAB, "CHAMPIONING CHILDREN": I remember when my son was born eight years ago, I didn`t hear anything about inclusion (ph) in Egypt.
Very good reading, Ali (ph).
We first learned that Ali had Down syndrome when he was 3 months old. And, of course it took us some time to really learn what to do.
And we did a lot of research. We went to the States and we did some programs for Ali. And it was to my surprise when I went there to see the children with special needs were just integrated into the main school system and they went in the same classroom with the other children.
If it can happen around the world, it should happen here. And this is how The Baby Academy started.
I was absolutely convinced if you want to talk about mainstreaming and if you want to talk about the inclusion of children with special needs, you have to start at the very young age. You need to prepare him academically, you need to prepare him socially.
It has prepared the children who don`t have special needs to be with their peers in the classroom and accept their differences.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has taught us to see disability in a new and different light and to learn how to deal with it in a positive way.
WAHAB: Because it was a new concept in Egypt and because not everybody really understood, can they really be together? We have prepared and opened the doors for them to see things in a different perspective.
If you really believe that it is a right for every child to have a proper education and just seeing that there is a shift in mentality now is a plus and is hope for the future, and not only for Ali, but for all other children.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Out to California, was a young man intentionally killed to harvest his organs? With us, his mom`s lawyer, Kevin Chaffin.
Kevin, what say you?
KEVIN CHAFFIN, ATTY. FOR ROSA NAVARRO: It`s clear from the investigation conducted by the state and federal government that Ruben was killed for the purpose of harvesting his organs. While the doctors, the donor network and the hospital have all been faulted for serious violations.
GRACE: And was the victim`s mom apprised of what was happening?
CHAFFIN: No, Nancy. Rosa sat at the hospital for four days before she even got to talk to a doctor. She didn`t know what was wrong with Ruben or what his chances for recovery were. She definitely did not think that he was in imminent danger of dying until she heard from the day she left from a doctor in a 30-second conversation.
She was told there was nothing that could be done for him. They have got a five-day maximum policy for life support, and that they would be pulling the plug. And all she was asked was whether or not she wanted to be there.
GRACE: Sir, have you filed a suit?
CHAFFIN: Yes, Nancy, we have. In fact, our complaint was filed -- this updated complaint was filed the same day as the criminal charges.
GRACE: With me, Kevin Chaffin, the attorney for Rosa Navarro, the alleged victim`s mom. And a special thank you to Lawrence Carter-Long with the Disabilities Network of New York City.
Tonight, an announcement from the heart from ABC`s "Good Morning America" co-host, Robin Roberts. Publicly announcing this morning she has been diagnosed with breast cancer. Her surgery is set this Friday. She says she caught the cancer in early stages, the prognosis good. Our thoughts and prayers with Robin Roberts.
Tonight let`s remember Army Corporal Rhett Butler, 22, Ft. Worth, Texas, killed, Iraq. He loved cooking, football, dreamed of trying out for the Special Forces. His mother Serita (ph) named her son after the star of "Gone With the Wind." Leaves behind dad David, stepmom Janice (ph), sisters Sheri (ph), Shauna (ph), Melissa. Rhett Butler, American hero.
Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for inviting us into your homes. And tonight, our prayers with Robin Roberts. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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