Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Ex-Boyfriend Charged in NYU Murder

Aired August 08, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news on the murder mystery in the shadows of prestigious NYU, New York University, consistently voted the number one dream school. The beautiful young daughter of two elite NYU professors found dead inside faculty housing, the 20-year-old coed decomposing, hidden wrapped in a sheet for three days before anyone takes notice. What`s the cause of death? What`s the possible motive for murder? Tonight, police hone in on a suicidal ex.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. The 23-year-old boyfriend wanted for questioning in the murder of college student Tumi McCallum is now in police custody and charged with murder, this after an apparent suicide attempt. Cops say Michael Cordero tried to commit suicide by slitting his wrists late last night. He was arrested by police at a nearby supermarket. It was in the hospital where he was undergoing treatment for those slit wrists where the NYPD says Cordero confessed to hospital staff that he tried to kill himself because he killed his girlfriend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, to Austin, Texas, where police received frantic phone calls from neighbors about the treatment of a 3-year-old toddler boy. Well, at first, cops couldn`t believe it, but scientific tests on the child`s hair reveal high and consistent use of cocaine and marijuana -- at age 3! Mommy`s alleged motive for feeding the baby cocaine? Just for the fun of it. Well, I hope you enjoyed the high times, Mom. It`s three hots and a cot tonight!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A mother in Texas is accused of the unthinkable crime of drugging her own baby. Twenty-five-year-old Ramona Coleman (ph) was arrested and charged with giving her 3-year-old son cocaine and marijuana. The police report says the boy was removed from the home and drug tested. The tests indicated constant drug use. Now, luckily, officials say, the toddler isn`t showing signs of any long-term health damage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I know it`s readily available, but I don`t know how anybody can even think that that`s OK. I just -- I don`t understand that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Is there a break in the brutal murder mystery in the shadows of prestigious NYU, New York University, campus? What is the cause of death of 20-year-old Tumi McCallum? And what is the motive for murder of the beautiful daughter of two elite NYU professors?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors reporting a foul smell lead police to a gruesome discovery at a New York University apartment. A young girl is found dead. Now her ex-boyfriend is being charged with her murder. He told hospital workers he tried to kill himself because he killed the woman. The body of Boitumelo McCallum was found wrapped in a sheet in a locked bedroom. Now, it was found the apartment belongs to her mother, who`s an NYU professor. School officials her mom currently out of the country. Now, relatives found the boyfriend, 23-year-old Michael Cordero, on the roof of a building with his wrists slit. He`s currently in custody at a hospital and is being interviewed by detectives. People say Boitumelo threw a party at the apartment on Wednesday, where the two reportedly argued.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boyfriend of a woman found dead in a New York University apartment has allegedly confessed to killing her. Michael Cordero was arrested late yesterday after police said he tried to commit suicide. Officers say they found him near a Manhattan supermarket bleeding from slits across his wrists. Twenty-year-old Boitumelo McCallum`s body was found in her NYU apartment Sunday. Her parents are both professors at NYU.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go straight out to our reporter on the scene, reporter with NY1, Solana Pyne. Solana, thank you for being with us. What`s the latest?

SOLANA PYNE, NY1: Well, the latest is, this afternoon, the medical examiner announced the cause of death. They say 20-year-old Boitumelo McCallum died. She was strangled with a towel wrapped around her face, smothered with the towel. Also, as you said earlier, the police charged her boyfriend, 23-year-old Michael Cordero, with murder in the second degree. They say he confessed completely last night at Roosevelt Hospital, where they took him after they found him bleeding with slit wrists. They spoke to him there. He told them exactly what he did, and they say it squares with what the medical examiner told us today..

GRACE: Back to Solana Pyne with NY1. Solana, did I hear he was breeding with slit wrists? Why is he still alive?

PYNE: Well, so he slit his wrists, apparently, and went to the roof of his relatives` apartment building. Several relatives see him up there. He runs away. They chase him out of the building, down the street and into a Western Beef (ph) grocery store. People on the street see the chase. They actually think, according to police, that he was being chased by police. So they call 911. Police show up at the grocery store. They find him. They take him immediately to the hospital, where he`s treated for those wounds.

GRACE: To Glenn Schuck, reporter with 1010 WINS radio. Glenn, welcome. Thank you for being with us. What was he doing inside the grocery store when he was apprehended?

GLENN SCHUCK, 1010 WINS: He was actually pretty calm, according to what the police told us today. He was initially frantic, but then when he saw police, he became very calm and just kind of gave himself up at that point.

I should mention that Solana touched on, too -- he was bleeding pretty badly. We`re told that he did need 30 stitches for his wounds. But again, the frantic behavior from the apartment led to the restaurant and next-door neighbor`s supermarket there, and then the police came. They said he was pretty calm when they put him in the ambulance and took him to Roosevelt Hospital.

GRACE: Back to Solana Pyne with NY1. Where was he within the grocery store?

SCHUCK: I believe he was kind of moving around, so he running down the aisles, from what I`ve been told. That`s where police found him.

GRACE: OK, this is what I don`t quite understand, Solana Pyne. He slit his wrists and he went up on the top of a building. So between two suicide attempts, slitting his wrists and going up to the top of the building to jump off, neither one worked, and he still had the energy to run how many blocks and hide out in a local grocery store?

PYNE: It`s true. I mean, it`s unclear exactly how he slit his wrists. I understand is he slit them sort of along his wrists. He may not have been quite as much in mortal danger. And again, police took him to the hospital immediately, so...

GRACE: Out to Caryn Stark, psychologist. Here we go. He says he tried to kill himself because he killed his girlfriend. Why is it the killer is always alive in the end and the victim is always dead from some - - what did he try to slit his wrists with, a magic marker? What is this about, setting up an insanity defense?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think, Nancy, we take a look at it and we take a look at the way that people kill themselves, men are much more able to do it and get away with it statistically...

GRACE: Not this guy.

STARK: No, because he didn`t really want to kill himself. That`s very clear. He`s capable of shooting himself and doing something that would really get him to be dead. So we know that this guy did not take that seriously. He was able to kill her, however, quite violently.

GRACE: To Solana Pyne with NY1, there on the scene of the murder. Solana, tell me about their relationship.

PYNE: Well, from what we understand, they met while she was in high school and he was living near the high school. They began dating. By some accounts, it was a turbulent relationship. She went to Mills College in Oakland, California, and he eventually followed her there and returned earlier this year, before she came back to stay back at her mother`s apartment at NYU.

Now, there are some reports that it was a violent, abusive relationship. That would certainly fit with the way that he allegedly killed her. But it`s been going on for some time. There are letters that have been in the press, with him trying to make her feel guilty and her sort of trying to please him and assure him of her love. So by all accounts, not a healthy relationship.

GRACE: When you say letters, letters between them, what did they say?

PYNE: Well, they said things like -- you know, her writing to him saying, I know you don`t believe me, but I really -- I do love you. I love you so much, I lose sleep over you, that sort of thing.

GRACE: Black to Glenn Schuck, reporter with 1010 WINS. What more can you tell us about the relationship? Was he in college with her? Was he a drop-out? Did he have a job? What more do we know about this so-called volatile relationship?

SCHUCK: I wanted to mention, too, Nancy, before we go back (INAUDIBLE) You know, if this guy was so sensitive about what happened to his girlfriend, he didn`t come forward. I mean, Sunday night, when this came out, about 10:00 o`clock Sunday night, they find this terribly decomposing body inside this apartment, where a lot of students are. And he certainly didn`t make any effort -- this was all over the news Sunday night -- to go to the police. Forty-eight hours went by, made no effort, the police looking for him, could not find him. So I think that`s important to say, too, that, you know, in terms of there`s any remorse here, if there is today, there certainly wasn`t at the time when this all went down Sunday.

GRACE: You know, Glenn, that`s a very astute observation. I was looking through some of the e-mails and letters they allegedly sent back and forth to each other. Now, for these to come into evidence -- we`re going to unleash lawyers in just a moment -- there are a lot of evidentiary hurdles that must be leaped before a jury will ever know about this. But a lot of them, he`s accusing her, saying, "How many times have you had unprotected sex behind my back? Do you know how many times I`ve thought of you? I can tell you haven`t checked your voice-mail because it`s full. You`re going to be so surprised when you hear all my messages."

Was he stalking her? What was the nature of this relationship? And why wasn`t anything done about that?

SCHUCK: Well, I think, you know, first of all, the young lady is from South Africa. There was some talk about her possibly doing back there and spending some time with both her parents, who are professors at NYU. She was going back to California. I think he felt threatened by the loss of her possibly leaving this area, since he lives here in Manhattan.

Also, we were told by neighbors that there were, indeed, some recent fights between the two, and at that party that she had -- it was a birthday party, no less -- on the night before she died, that there were some arguments between the two of them. Then after the party left -- everyone left that party, early into Thursday morning is when they heard some more arguing. And then, of course, the body was found Sunday.

So just a very tragic situation for her. Obviously, she felt threatened by this man, according to the people that we`ve spoken to, and just could not get out of the relationship.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, former fed. You know, Mike, I almost feel like law enforcement -- us, me, you, former law enforcement - - personally responsible because how many times, Mike Brooks, have we seen the volatile relationship -- in other words, abusive, stalking, threatening -- that`s what volatile means, where one or the other, typically the male, writes these letters, phone calls, threats. And what from what I understand, what tipped this whole thing off is she threw a party for her father the night before, and the suspect was not invited. And that pushed things over the edge -- not for a normal person, but for this guy. But you could see it building, Mike. You could see it coming!

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It sounds like a lot of people saw it coming, Nancy, but if they don`t go forward to the police, try to get a restraining order, let them know what`s going on, let them know about the stalking behavior, you know, nothing can be done. The law -- you can`t help those that don`t want to help themselves. She probably did. But it could have been a cultural thing where maybe she didn`t trust the police, didn`t know where to go. But her parents should have known...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! A cultural thing.

BROOKS: It could be, yes.

GRACE: This is a college grad, with two parents elite professors at prestigious NYU.

BROOKS: Well, why didn`t they tell her, then?

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: Why didn`t they -- why didn`t they help her out, then, and let her...

GRACE: You know what?

BROOKS: ... know, You better go to the police?

GRACE: You`ve really hit on an important point. I want to go back to psychologist Dr. Caryn Stark. Caryn, the reality is, is this type of volatile relationship crosses all lines of race, money, education, you name it. Women get trapped in these relationships, and they end up like this.

STARK: Well, Nancy, think about it. It`s so glorified, the idea that you have a jealous boyfriend, and he loves you so much and he really wants you. And women out there should know that that is not a good thing. It`s very, very dangerous when someone doesn`t trust you. They can become paranoid and...

GRACE: Listen to this, Caryn Stark, before I go to Renee Rockwell and Alan Ripka. This is -- I`m attributing to "The New York Daily News," today`s paper. Listen to this, what he wrote her. "Do I mean anything to you, or am I just another guy? How many times have you had unprotected sex? And with how many partners? Tell me. The truth will set you free."

STARK: Well, and doesn`t that show you...

GRACE: Free!

STARK: Doesn`t that show you that he`s paranoid and he has a lot of problems? And the problem is that often gets glorified. It seems like it`s a wonderful thing, He really cares about me. Women get stuck and they can`t get out. They don`t wind up feeling good enough about themselves to get out.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Regina in Michigan. Hi, Regina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations.

GRACE: Regina, thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My sister, Terry (ph), and I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, will his lawyers try to plead him out as temporarily insane?

GRACE: Oh, Regina, you little minx! You`re right on it. That`s exactly where this is going. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney out of New York Alan Ripka.

Renee, come on, what did he do, take a Bic pen and try to slit his wrists, run up to the top of the building, and then had the energy after slitting his wrists to lead everybody on a foot chase through a local grocery store.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Nancy...

GRACE: What was he, hiding in the peanut butter?

ROCKWELL: And you know what? Clean-up on aisle two. But here`s a guy that might not have really wanted to kill himself, if he`s not slitting his wrists up and down. But Nancy, of course -- in answer to the question, of course they`re going to -- any lawyer would try to say he was not in a proper mental state. But there`s different degrees of homicide in New York, and they`re going to try to make it that it was -- make it a situation where he just formed some kind of motive to kill her immediately, and that`s what happened, resulting from some type of a fight.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know what law book Renee Rockwell has been studying, Alan Ripka, I think one specifically suited to the defense bar. But when you form a motive and you act immediately, intent to kill can be formed in the blink of an eye, the snap of a finger. I notice this is charged as murder two, not murder one. Explain.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, obviously, they`re not sure whether or not he premeditated this murder. Meaning, did he take time before he got to the building? Did he go upstairs knowing he was going to kill her? Did he have the towel hand and he wound up suffocating (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: B.S.! Alan Ripka, intent can be formed that fast. And the reality is -- how long -- wait a minute. I`m going to come right back to you, Alan Ripka.

I want to go to special guest Dr. Gary Telgenhoff, medical examiner out of Nevada and consultant to "CSI." Doctor, how long would it take to strangle someone that was resisting, a healthy female like Tumi resisting you? How long would it take him to strangle her?

DR. GARY TELGENHOFF, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, that`s highly variable, again, depending on the strength of the strangler and the strength of the victim. But I would say a number of minutes.

GRACE: A number of minutes. Back to Alan Ripka. Are you telling with a straight face, with your knowledge, your intimate knowledge of criminal defense, that "a number of minutes" is not enough time to form intent to kill?

RIPKA: It doesn`t have to be, Nancy. This could have been an argument, what they call heat of passion. He could have learned something, found something out about another man, potentially, and acted immediately, without even thinking about it. And at that point, he would be deemed not...

GRACE: Several minutes to kill.

RIPKA: During that time, he`s in that heat of passion, Nancy, at that time where he`s losing his mind and not aware of his circumstances.

GRACE: Let`s see Alan Ripka and Renee Rockwell on the screen for a moment. You know, Alan, I caught what you just did. I don`t know if the viewers caught it. But I heard you go from one defense to another. You went from no intent, Did he have the towel, the murder weapon in his hands going up the stairs, to suddenly, Oh, my God, she`d been with another man, provocation. You`re bringing it down to manslaughter in the last two minutes. You`re trying to bring it down to manslaughter for murder two, and that`s just what a good defense attorney will do in court.

Out to Dina in Nevada. Dina, we see where this is headed. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love the show. Love you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to know, was there any sign of sexual or domestic or drug or alcohol abuse in this situation at all?

GRACE: That is an excellent question. There had been suggestions in some of the local papers about sex assault. That was later retracted.

I want to go back out to Solana Pyne with NY1. What do we know about that definitively, or do we?

PYNE: Well, initially, there were these reports of condoms, of liquor bottles in the room, and of blood on the walls, these sorts of things. But the police came out -- police commissioner Ray Kelly said that those rumors were absolutely false.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friends of Michael Cordero here at the housing projects, where he apparently tried to slit his wrists last night, are coming out in his defense. They say he`s not the kind of guy to ever try to kill his girlfriend, or anyone, for that matter. In fact, they describe him as a peaceful, sweet, nonviolent guy, a poet, a musician.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A poet and a musician. Maybe they haven`t read the letters he wrote her, or maybe they haven`t read the admission he gave to not only to friends but to hospital staff.

Out to the lines. Mike in North Carolina. Hi, Mike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Nancy. First of all, congratulations. And we love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. Can you believe it? Twins?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, wow. We have two, but not at the same time, so -- congratulations to you.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is, if this man, he strangles her with a towel and suffocates her, which, like you said, takes a couple minutes, how can it be second degree murder and not first degree murder?

GRACE: OK. This is my understanding of the New York law. Alan Ripka, you`re a New York lawyer. It`s my understanding that first degree murder in New York is when -- is death penalty qualified. In other words, you kill a cop, you kill a politician, a public figure, a murder during a rape or other felony, mass murder, which is more than one body. And there New York, murder two is more like other jurisdictions` murder one. It is premeditated murder that carries a life sentence with it.

Alan, is that correct?

RIPKA: That is correct, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. So that`s the answer to you, Mike in North Carolina. And thank you for your good wishes.

Vicki in Illinois. Hi, Vicki.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, love. What`s your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering, did nobody report her missing at all for the last three days?

GRACE: Vicki, this is my question. Let`s throw it out to Glenn Schuck with 1010 WINS. Glenn, from what I understand, he says she screamed and she was locked -- at the time of the murder -- and she was locked in a room for three days. Where were the roommates?

SCHUCK: Well, it`s really shocking, actually, if this happens into Thursday or even Friday, say that this went until Sunday night, when neighbors started smelling something down the hallway. It`s almost too graphic to even discuss. You have to smell something before it happens, you heard things -- and on top of it, this is a building where residents are there to go to school. There`s young women. There`s young men. I mean, maybe some factor is the fact that it is a quieter time of year, where there aren`t as many people in the building. But I think it`s shocking to everyone not only in that building but in the lower part of Manhattan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The relatives found the boyfriend, 23-year-old Michael Cordero, on the roof of a building with his wrists slit. He`s currently at a hospital and is being interviewed by detectives. People say Boitumelo threw a party at the apartment on Wednesday, where the two reportedly argued.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go straight out to producer Phil Rosenbaum. Another thing that is so disturbing is the dichotomy with NYU`s reputation and this happening and nobody even noticing for three days.

PHIL ROSENBAUM, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: NYU, as you said, is one of the most prominent schools in the country these days and one of the hardest to get into. Another shocking thing about it is that this crime takes place at a time of relatively low crime in New York City. The murder rate in New York City has not been this low since 1963, Nancy.

GRACE: Incredible. We`re showing those stats that you`re talking about right now, Phil Rosenbaum.

Out to Rebecca in California. Hi, Rebecca.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Hello from the beautiful city of Modesto. My question is this. Is it possible the suicide attempt, they could use it in his defense to say he wasn`t in the right mind? And are they looking towards somehow getting him psychiatric help, as opposed to hard jail time?

GRACE: Rebecca, you should be a member of the defense bar, God forbid. That`s exactly what they`re going to do, and this failed suicide attempt is going to be defense exhibit number one in an insanity defense.

Everyone, when we come back, a Texas mom arrested for keeping her toddler high on cocaine and marijuana. She said she thought it was funny.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother, 25-year-old Ramona Coleman, is charged with child endangerment. According to this police complaint filed July 31st, a witness claimed seeing Coleman give her 3-year-old son cocaine. After he was removed from the home, hair samples were taken. They tested positive for marijuana and cocaine. The level indicated a high and constant use.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Texas police received frantic phone calls from neighbors about the treatment of a 3-year-old toddler boy. When police get there, they can`t believe it, but scientific tests on the little boy`s hair follicles reveal high, quote, "high and consistent use of cocaine and marijuana." A 3-year-old boy. Possible motive for Mommy feeding the baby cocaine? For the fun of it.

I want to go straight out to Emily Trube with KLBJ Radio 590 AM. Emily, please tell me it`s not true.

EMILY TRUBE, REPORTER: Nancy, the papers indicate that it is true. CPS started investigating most recently in June, but they also did an investigation last year where they heard reports that the child imitated smoking marijuana and said, "I like to get high." Taylor police, or this woman lives in a small town...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Emily?

TRUBE: Yes?

GRACE: Did you just say, "The baby said, `I like to get high`"?

TRUBE: That is what the child protective services indicate.

GRACE: OK, God help us all. The baby said, "I like to get high." OK, go ahead, Emily.

TRUBE: Taylor is a small town north and east of Austin. And it is a small town, and it`s unclear who called in these reports. That person is kept anonymous. It could have been a neighbor. It could have been a relative, of which several live in Taylor.

But going back to last year, there were indications that this child, at the very least, was exposed to drugs to the point where he was able to possibly imitate someone taking drugs. And then they came out again this past June to investigate the same allegations, not only of the drug use, but possibly beer, possibly cigarettes, also physical abuse and neglect. Those are the different allegations against her on the child...

GRACE: Physical abuse, physical abuse and neglect. Do we know the details of those allegations, Emily Trube?

TRUBE: What it says on the report is that she was seen to be slapping him on the face and on the body, also screaming at him. Also, in terms of the neglect, him playing in the front yard while she and her mother, who lives at the home, were passed out inside. Again, this is what the report reflects hearing from witnesses who called Child Protective Services.

GRACE: When I think of someone slapping this 3-year-old baby in the face, listen, out to Dr. Gary Telgenhoff, kind enough to stay with us for this segment, medical examiner out of Nevada, Doctor, explain to the viewers -- I only know what cocaine can do to adults, because they`re the only ones I ever prosecuted. But to a 3-year-old child? And the reports reveal, quote, "high and consistent use of cocaine and marijuana." I mean, this kid couldn`t have weighed over 30 pounds, Doctor.

DR. GARY TELGENHOFF, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes, I know. The effect on a child I wouldn`t expect to be much different than an adult. It`s going to raise heart rate, blood pressure, body temperature. When they say that there is a consistent and high level, I don`t know exactly what`s meant by high level because any amount of cocaine can be lethal to anyone.

GRACE: Especially on a baby. And, Doctor, we have heard many times - - I don`t even have to say, Lenny Bias -- of someone using a drug for the very first time, very first time, and having a heart attack and dying.

TELGENHOFF: Yes, it`s very common. Out here, I see it all the time.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Sharon in Nevada. Hi, Sharon.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy, love the show.

GRACE: Thank you, love.

CALLER: Wanted to know, has this mother had any other children, any abortions, or any still births of any sort because of the drugs?

GRACE: Interesting question. Emily Trube with KLBJ Radio 590 AM, do we know of other children, other miscarriages, or other children put up for adoption?

TRUBE: We do not. The report does not indicate that, that she has any other children, and certainly I do not know about any miscarriages or abortions.

GRACE: Let`s go out to a special guest joining us, program director of Child Advocates Inc. there in Texas, Betsi Sanchez. Betsi, thank you for being with us. Betsi, why was she already under investigation at the time that it was discovered about the cocaine and pot?

BETSI SANCHEZ, CHILD ADVOCATES INC.: Actually, we are in Harris county, so we don`t have the specific details of this case as it was in another county.

GRACE: What can you tell us? Do we know any idea, any suggestion as to what was her problem? Was she addicted to cocaine? Do we think that`s going to be the defense?

SANCHEZ: Well, it sounds to me, from what we`ve read, that she clearly had an addiction.

GRACE: How quickly can this child be placed with another member of the family? And how do we know that will be any better?

SANCHEZ: Well, ultimately it`s up to the court. And as you mentioned, I`m with Child Advocates. And so upon a court appointment, we would, in a case like this, interview all family members to determine whether or not the child can be placed with a family member rather than staying in a foster home. And we would be able to do that quickly, because ultimately that would be the best thing for the 3-year-old.

GRACE: But, Emily Trube with KLBJ Radio, didn`t you tell me that neighbors observed her and her mother passed out?

TRUBE: Again, we`re not entirely sure what the witness reports came from, but they believe -- these people did believe that she and her mother who live in the home together were passed out.

GRACE: Oh, the mother lives there, the grandmother of the baby.

TRUBE: Yes, ma`am, that they both reside at that residence. And there are two things that were brought up that I think are of interest. She was being investigated for endangerment of the child, but she was not charged or arrested for this until last week when she showed up to a status hearing on cocaine. And that`s when she was arrested. And she was actually arrested for contempt of court and public intoxication.

GRACE: I`m sorry, I couldn`t hear that. She was arrested for what?

TRUBE: Public intoxication and contempt of court. That`s when the actual arrest happened, and now she is additionally being charged with endangerment to a child.

GRACE: Isn`t it true she showed up high in court, and that was the public intoxication?

TRUBE: She tested positive for cocaine at the courthouse.

GRACE: So, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, if you show up in court and you look high, the judge can just say, "You, blood test," Ripka?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, apparently in this county you can, because he did it and he caught her.

GRACE: Well, you know, you`re making it sound like that`s unconstitutional, "apparently in that county you can." Of course a judge - - if you are in contempt of court, and you`re acting high as a kite, Renee Rockwell, apparently drunk, believe me, I`ve had witnesses showing up drunk. You can smell them a mile away.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Can I tell you about a phone call I got while I was waiting for the show?

GRACE: I`m afraid you`re going to. Go ahead.

ROCKWELL: Boyfriend calls. He and his girl went to court today. They were 20 minutes late. The judge says, "OK, you`re off your bond unless you can pass a drug test." She goes and takes a drug test, she`s in jail now because she failed a drug test.

You go into a judge`s courtroom, you`re there for court, if the judge says, "We want you to take a drug test," she may have been there without an attorney. And she took it. She signed up for it. Now she`s in jail. She`s got a bail, $10,000, so she`s out tomorrow if she can come out with the thousand dollars. But what is that going to do for her case now?

GRACE: And you`re going to represent her. Congratulations.

Back to Emily Trube. Emily, I`ve got to get this straight. You said she was under investigation for something?

TRUBE: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And she shows up in court high. What was she under investigation to start with?

TRUBE: Allegations of endangerment to a child.

GRACE: Got you. Got you.

TRUBE: It was Child Protective Services, which turned into a criminal matter last week when she was drug tested at the courthouse, positive for cocaine.

GRACE: Got you.

TRUBE: You mentioned also, if you don`t mind, Nancy, about the relatives of the children that, in these cases, that they tried to move the child out of foster care as soon as possible into a home of a relative. As we have seen, the CPS investigation has revealed that, again, the child`s grandmother may possibly be a drug user, as well. The child`s uncle is a registered sex offender. And the child`s father, we believe, is incarcerated for a shooting incident. So this child remains in foster care. Positively...

GRACE: This kid doesn`t have a chance, Emily. And, you know, take a look at this, Mike Brooks. The reality is, the mom was under investigation by Department of Family and Children Services. There you go, under investigation, the kid`s getting high on cocaine while it`s under investigation. What do they, wait until the kid is almost dead before they solve the case?

BROOKS: That`s exactly my question, Nancy. Where was CPS? Where were these investigators? It`s sounds like they need a few more investigators for Child Protective Services because this mother and grandmother of the year were putting this child in danger. There were supposed to be people over at the house using drugs. It`s just ridiculous to me.

GRACE: Danielle in California, hi, Danielle.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. I was curious to know why the child wasn`t taken when she became under investigation? And, also, how was the cocaine ingested? Were they giving this baby crack cocaine or was it powder cocaine?

GRACE: Emily, was it crack or powder?

TRUBE: It is unclear. That`s unclear. But if I may say, Child Protective Services did remove this child in June.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A mother in Texas is accused of the unthinkable crime of drugging her own baby. Twenty-five-year-old Ramona Coleman was arrested and charged with giving her 3-year-old son cocaine and marijuana. The police report says the boy was removed from the home and drug tested. The test indicated constant drug use. Now, luckily, officials say the toddler isn`t showing signs of any long-term health damage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And, unfortunately, this won`t be the first time. Remember, the mom arrested for allegedly her son bringing crack cocaine to show and tell? Then there was the pop top, uncle and roommate arrested for having a 2- or 4-year-old boy smoke marijuana. There they are, taking a puff on a big fat doobie. You think this is the first time he`s inhaled? I don`t think so. Yes, they knew exactly, exactly how to smoke pot. Look at this, a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old.

Then potentially permanent damage. A mother charged with child abuse after her 1-year-old had methamphetamine in the system. And who could ever forget the drunk baby, a 2-month-old drunk on vodka? The alcohol level four types the legal limit. That`s on a 2-month-old baby.

And, tonight, out of Texas, a toddler, the scientific tests taken on hair follicles shows consistent and high use of cocaine and marijuana. Back out to the lines, Charice in Maryland, hi, Charice.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: My question is, is that, if she was under investigation during that time frame, I mean, wouldn`t they have given the baby a physical to determine if he was being abused or anything like that? They could have symptoms to a doctor, I mean, where they could determine this earlier than now?

GRACE: Excellent question. Emily, when the child was first taken -- joining us is Emily Trube from KLBJ Radio 590 AM -- the first time the baby was taken, was it tested, was it blood tested, was it checked out medically?

TRUBE: I believe that that is standard procedure. All but the report that I have indicates is that the drug test was administered to the child.

GRACE: And you know what`s interesting, back to Dr. Gary Telgenhoff, our of Nevada, the medical examiner there, Doctor, explain to me -- and, of course, we`ve heard of this before -- that hair follicles can reveal drug use. How does it work?

TELGENHOFF: Well, a drug sample is obtained by pulling a hair out by the root. You have to have the root to give you an idea of where the starting point is. And then this hair is sectioned and cut into small pieces, kind of appropriate with the expected amount of growth per month.

GRACE: So how long does the use of cocaine stay in the hair follicle or in the hair?

TELGENHOFF: I don`t know that specifically. I just don`t know that answer.

GRACE: You know, many people have heard of it, but the reality is, drugs can show up in your hair. Elizabeth, to the control room please. What does Britney Spears have to do -- you just -- oh, I remember. There was an allegation that Federline was going to have her drug-tested, so that is why she saved her head. Elizabeth, thanks for the legal input.

I want to go back out to the lines. Bernadine in Illinois, hi, Bernadine.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

CALLER: And congratulations.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: If so many people knew that this was going on and there`s family living around there, why didn`t someone take this child away from her?

GRACE: You know, Bernadine, it`s just like turning away, washing your hands as if it`s not your fault. You see it happening. You know it`s happening, and you do nothing about it. Under our system, our American jurisprudence system, that is not a crime. But in my mind, to stand by and let a child like this suffer possible permanent damage, they should all be charged, every neighbor that knew about it.

Mike Brooks, neighbors know. Family members know.

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. In a small town like this, they all knew what was going on. Child Protective Services had some witnesses this all was going on. All the relatives knew what`s going on. Friends coming over there knew what was going on. It was ridiculous.

And the thing that really irritates me, Nancy, Child Protective Services has said that she could get these children back if she went to substance abuse treatment as well as parenting classes. A class is going to make this woman a better parent? I don`t think so. But thank God they said she can`t get the baby back for six months to a year.

GRACE: Oh, like she`s going to be a better influence, Renee Rockwell, when the baby is 4 years old versus 3 years old? What about the antiquated view that you reunite mother and child at all costs? Renee, I don`t agree with that.

ROCKWELL: But, Nancy, that`s the soup du jour today. What they`re going to do is work with her and try to get her back, get this baby back together, because...

GRACE: She was already under investigation, Renee, and she showed up to court high.

ROCKWELL: But, Nancy, there`s an optimistic view that maybe they pull her out of it, because if you send the kid to a foster family and the kid gets abused, then everybody is going to point the fingers at the officials. So let`s get behind her, let`s get her rehab, and let`s give the kid back.

GRACE: You know, Alan, here`s the deal. We know the home is a horrible environment. Remember what they said, Alan. Alan, you have children. Take off your defense hat just a moment.

RIPKA: OK.

GRACE: We know that the mom is accused of slapping, hitting the baby, leaving it unattended, giving it cocaine for the fun of it, to watch it tripping. So we know that`s a bad environment. So what`s the worst devil, sending it back there or sending it to foster care?

RIPKA: Well, the idea is to put the baby into a safe environment for now. But at all cost, attempt to educate and rehabilitate this parent so that there could be a healthy relationship and a healthy life into the future, Nancy.

GRACE: You know, back to Sanchez, I hear Alan Ripka, and he and Renee are both veteran trial lawyers, but to Betsi Sanchez with Child Advocates Inc., why is all the focus always on rehabbing the parent instead of saving the child?

SANCHEZ: Well, I think attention is on both. I mean, obviously this case is really severe, so I think in moving forward it`s really important, if ultimately the judge decides to terminate parental rights, which very well could happen, that he is provided all the information he needs in order to be able to do that. And so it`s true, as you mentioned earlier, the case workers, we all know, we hear stories every day, their case loads are so high. And so it`s important that people in the community are involved in order to help these kids so they can grow up and thrive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother, 25-year-old Ramona Coleman, is charged with child endangerment. According to this police complaint filed July 31st, a witness claimed seeing Coleman give her 3-year-old son cocaine. After he was removed from the home, hair samples were taken. They tested positive for marijuana and cocaine. The level indicated a high and constant use.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Combined with allegations the mom would slap the baby in the face, this baby shows evidence of high and consistence use of cocaine. To Mary in Tennessee, hi, Mary.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I`d just like to know, the doctor said that the ingestion of cocaine can be fatal. Why can`t they charge this mother with attempted murder, just like she was giving the child poison?

GRACE: Why not, Alan Ripka?

RIPKA: They don`t believe that she intended on attempting to murder this child. They believe that -- they believe her story that she gave the kid drugs for fun.

GRACE: Oh, OK, so it`s kind of like, gee, I held the gun up to your head and pulled the trigger, but I didn`t mean to kill you. I agree with Mary in Tennessee.

To Kim in Michigan. Hi, Kim.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I`m wondering, if she was pregnant with the baby and doing drugs, could it already be in the baby`s system? And when they took the sample of the hair -- not that I`m defending her at all...

GRACE: The baby was 3 years old. The baby is 3 years old, so it wasn`t while she was pregnant.

CALLER: OK. Just wondering...

GRACE: And I agree with you, Kim in Michigan, you have to look at every defense. But the baby was 3 years old. We`re going to stay on the case. I want to find out what happens to this mother, and especially where is that baby tonight?

Let`s stop to remember Army Specialist Robert Varga, 24, Monroe City, Missouri, killed, Iraq. A member of the MP, he loved to cook and draw, was taking culinary arts before joining the military, loved to take over the barbecue from his mom. Robert leaves behind loving wife, Ellie, parents, Cecilia, and Frank Varga, three sisters, Carrie, Mandy Pamela, Robert Varga, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for inviting all of us into your home. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END