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Nancy Grace

Former Pennsylvania Fire Chief, Wife and Son Shot to Death

Aired August 10, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: We begin tonight with breaking news, a horrific discovery, the triple homicide of a Pennsylvania family in their rural home. Former fire chief Joseph Colegrove, his wife, Marlene, and their adult son, Michael, all found shot to death in the head with a shotgun. Tonight, a community in shock as police search for clues and ask the public for help. Who killed this respected Pennsylvania family?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State police investigators walk out of the Colegrove home here on Kirby (ph) Road in Tuscarora Township. They`ve been searching for clues all day, taking out bags of evidence. Troopers say Joseph Colegrove, seen here, and his wife and son were shot to death here at their home. No suspects have been arrested, and no motive has been released. The Bradford County coroner, seen here driving away from the home, says autopsies on all three victims will be performed Friday morning at Lehigh Valley Hospital.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And also tonight, a suspected dog fighting ring in South Carolina -- 28-year-old James Ling faces felony animal cruelty charges after police found three dead pit bulls and 12 other dogs in poor health at his home in Beaufort (ph) County. Also found in Ling`s home, training equipment used specifically for dog fighting. It looks like Ling could face some jail time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tucked away behind the wooded area of Tinderwood (ph) Lane is where Beaufort County authorities found a horrifying case of animal cruelty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What the officers found was 12 live pit bulls unchained, very skinny, lots of hair loss, no food, no water. As they continued on, they found three dead dogs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sheriff`s deputies said they found evidence of a dog fighting operation at 28-year-old James Ling`s residence. They say that`s where he abandoned the dogs, leaving them for dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

First to Pennsylvania and the triple murder of a beloved fire chief, his wife and his son.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say between 12:00 AM and 7:00 AM on Tuesday, the Colegroves were killed on the second floor of that house you see there. They were all shot in the head with a shotgun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A memorial outside the Laceyville Good Will fire station pays tribute to Joseph Colegrove. Friends of the family are stunned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the community losing someone like Joe, it will take at least a half a dozen people to replace his volunteerism and his camaraderie throughout the town.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, excellent guy. Do anything for anybody, you know? Shame to -- you know, he was good guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I truly feel that Laceyville will be a different community without Joe Colegrove. This is a devastation (INAUDIBLE) this community.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t believe we have a random killer or killers. I do believe this is a specific act. I know -- you know, there is a killer that is not in custody right now, but I do not see a random act here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: All right, let`s go straight out to Ed Miller, "America`s Most Wanted." What do we know so far?

ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, as you say, if ever there was a Norman Rockwell portrait of a family, this is it. Dad was not just a fire chief but a barber, the town barber, for 40 years. Mom drove a school bus for two decades. The son, the grown son that lived with them, was a teacher`s aide. On the surface, everything looked so very, very perfect.

Police are being very tight-lipped about this, but they are saying they`re looking into the family relationships, who the family knew, who they spoke with, and of course, what possible problems they could have had with the outside world. I think we`re talking about something far more serious here than somebody complaining about a bad haircut.

Investigators not just here but anywhere would, of course, be looking at the serious possible ramifications. Who had a gambling debt? Who perhaps had a drug problem? Who perhaps was fooling around with somebody else`s wife? Serious reasons that this family could have been targeted because police are saying that this family was targeted.

CASAREZ: Now, Ed, we do know a little bit. So when do they believe the family was killed? Where was the family in the home, and how were they killed?

ED MILLER: The family was in three separate rooms upstairs. Each was shot once in the head with a shotgun. And again, it does not appear that there was a breaking and entering. In other words, things were not all tossed all around, although police are not, again, revealing very much. They are keeping everything very close.

I did get this out of the police, though, and believe me, I had to really twist arms to get it. The family was not tortured, which seems to indicate that it perhaps happened very quickly.

CASAREZ: But they were shot in the head or face.

Let`s go to Kevin Miller, reporter for KDKA News Radio 1020. Kevin, first of all, who found the bodies?

KEVIN MILLER, KDKA NEWS RADIO 1020: Jean, according to authorities, it was a woman who went to check on the family. She found the bodies Wednesday afternoon, notified authorities. Police have not revealed her identity. They`ve also put a shout-out to anyone who has seen a pickup in the area of the Colegroves` home to contact police. But it was a woman. They have not mentioned any people of interest as well.

CASAREZ: Now, Kevin, one thing law enforcement is saying -- they`re not saying once, but one thing they`re saying is they believe the family was specifically targeted. How do you interpret that?

KEVIN MILLER: Well, as Ed said, when their bodies were found on the second floor -- and they were shot not only in the head, but in the face, and police have not revealed whether there was any break-in or not. They`ve been very tight-lipped about this, and they say they don`t believe in specific acts (ph). You do have in Bradford County -- it has been known as "meth valley." Police are not saying whether there`s a connection or not, but there is a problem with methamphetamines in Bradford County.

CASAREZ: Now, one thing that`s going on right now is the processing of the crime scene. And the crime scene is their home because that`s where they were killed. All three of them were shot with a shotgun. Not a rifle, but a shotgun.

I want to show everybody, these are some shotgun shells right here. And when you think of murder, you think of a bullet that goes into somebody. But a shotgun has pellets. And this is a shotgun before it`s shot. This is a shotgun with the pellets out.

I`d like to go to Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers from the Nutley, New Jersey, police department. When they`re processing the crime scene right now, this, some say, is the most important part of the case.

You know, at Court TV, I`ve covered so many cases, and with our live trial coverage, when we get to trial and we cover that case on Court TV, it`s the processing of the crime scene that can make or break the case. What are they looking for now? What are they taking? What are they going to analyze? And what type of a crime scene is it going to be with shotgun pellets?

DET. LT. STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPT.: Well, the first officers on the scene have to secure that home, not only what`s inside but maybe up to 10 or 15 yards outside of the home. They`re going to be looking for tire tracks leading up to that home. They`re going to be looking for footprints on the front lawn and the back yard. When they get into the house, that`s when they`re going to take fiber. They`re going to look for blood samples. They`re going to look for any piece of evidence that could link this individual, this killer to that crime.

CASAREZ: Isn`t this a case of DNA?

ROGERS: Boils down to that, pretty much, except -- except the fact there may have been -- and it`s an interesting thing that one of your guests earlier brought up. There may have been a family member involved or someone they`re very familiar with.

CASAREZ: That is very true. We have a very special guest tonight, and the courage that it takes him to come on our air, we really appreciate it. It is the mayor of Laceyville. He knew the family, Mayor Ken Patton. I want to thank you so much, first of all, for coming on. Your community must be stunned by this.

MAYOR KEN PATTON, LACEYVILLE, PENNSYLVANIA: It pretty much has paralyzed the whole community. And it`s not just the community, it`s the whole area. We`re very rural here. The (INAUDIBLE) only takes up about two square miles, but we depend on -- Joe probably lived -- his family lived about five miles away from downtown Laceyville.

CASAREZ: You know, I want to ask you, Mayor, because we`re seeing his home, the family`s home on our screen right there. How rural were they? What`s the closest neighbor? How far was the home from the street?

PATTON: Probably the closest neighbor was about half a mile. They live on a dirt road. It`s pretty -- it`s about as rural as it gets.

CASAREZ: Now, this family, they were killed with a shotgun. Hunting is a very popular sport in Pennsylvania. I know that. Did this -- was this family into hunting? Would they have had shotguns in their home that would then have been used against them?

PATTON: Well, I`m sure they were all avid hunters and fishermen, so I`m sure that there were guns in the home. I would assume that they were also very safety-conscious, probably would be all locked up in a gun safe. But I don`t know that for sure.

CASAREZ: Have you spoken with anybody that saw members of the family the day before or even hours before they went to bed that night, Tuesday night?

PATTON: Not hours before. I had seen him the day before. I`d waved to him on the way -- on the way by through town. He was in his barber shop, and I was on my way in and I waved and...

CASAREZ: You know, what we`ve heard about Joseph Colegrove is that he not only owned the barber shop, but he was the fire chief of the community -- not any longer. But just tell me about this family and the respect that they had in your town.

PATTON: Well, Joe was currently the secretary-treasurer of the fire company now, and a very active member, a line officer, and you know, always had a great sense of humor. Well, everybody knows everybody because we`re so small, and always had little pranks or a practical joke going from one way, sometimes recipient and sometimes he was the guy doing it, and all good-natured stuff, you know? And just for the community. Marlene not only drove a school bus, but she knew everybody`s kids. You know, it was like family. You know, it just wasn`t...

CASAREZ: Now, their son -- I`m sorry.

PATTON: Yes.

CASAREZ: Their son lived with them, 26-year-old, because he`s been having some health issues, correct?

PATTON: Yes. Yes.

CASAREZ: Who could have done this? Who could have perpetrated this execution of this family?

PATTON: Well, this is what has everybody so, you know, in disbelief. I mean, I`m just waiting to wake up tomorrow morning and it was a bad dream. But anybody that knew them could have done it. I mean, they were good people, community-minded. It will never be the same.

CASAREZ: We can`t even imagine what you`re going through. But this is obviously your community in Pennsylvania, close to Wilkes-Barre, close to Scranton, such an important area in our state of Pennsylvania.

You know, the autopsies were being done today, and I want to go to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist and toxicologist. When you have victims that were shot in the head or the face, first of all, did they endure any pain before they died?

DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: Death is usually instant because it severs the spinal cord as it goes through. Instant, usually.

CASAREZ: So they didn`t have a chance.

MORRONE: No.

CASAREZ: When you are performing an autopsy like this, is there anything you specifically look for that could help possibly in this crime, in the solving of it?

MORRONE: Well, the time of death is going to be really important, and in the first few hours, it`s usually stomach contents and body core temperature. And the stomach contents become really important because they tell you, did they die after their early morning breakfast meal? Did they die after their dinner?

It sounds like they were all upstairs in bed and this caught them all by surprise. But we`ll be able to pick what time of what day based on that. And then the early stages of decomposition are probably something we`re going to fade into, and it will be indoor decomposition versus outdoor decomposition.

CASAREZ: And how valuable are you to the prosecutor to determine that one was shot on the left side of the face and one on the right side, or all of them exactly the same. That helps once you get to trial, correct?

MORRONE: It`ll show that somebody shooting is possibly left-handed or right-handed as how they were approached. And if they turned over and were shot in the face as an act of defense, that`ll be very different than if they were shot in the head from behind.

CASAREZ: All right. You know, I want to go back to Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers. This is a crime scene where there`s going to be a lot of blood spatter, obviously. That is critical to help exonerate someone and to also implicate someone because the height of the blood spatter can be determined to experts to show the height of the person murdered (SIC).

ROGERS: Oh, it`s very, very critical. That`s why when the police get to this crime scene, it has to be so meticulously preserved. They`ll get their CSI people in there, and they`ll take every bit of blood that they can find -- as you say, some splattered on the ceiling, some on the floor. Some blood dried, maybe some not. But that is going to be very critical.

CASAREZ: All right. All right. And once again, to Mayor Ken Patton. We are so sorry for your loss. And if anyone is watching tonight that has information, what would you like to say to them?

PATTON: Even if it seems so insignificant, it could be a piece of a puzzle that we`re looking for. I know I wish we could be more specific on the pickup truck. There`s more pickup trucks here than there are cars.

CASAREZ: And police are looking for a pickup truck. Do they have a description at all at this point in time with that pickup?

PATTON: Not that I know of. I`ve talked to the state police this afternoon, and they just said a pickup, so it would help if we had a color.

CASAREZ: And that`s where people can come forward and call. We want to give everybody a number. There is a number to call the state police in Pennsylvania if you have any information. You can call 570-265-2186. That is the state police. And there is a reward at this point from the Pennsylvania Crimestoppers, a reward for $2,000, 1-800-4PA-TIPS. Call that number if you have any information.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: State police based in Towanda say that they believe that Joseph Colegrove, his wife, Marlene, and son, Michael, were shot dead in their Tuscarora Township home in the early morning hours on Wednesday. They say that it doesn`t appear that anybody forcibly entered the home, but they say this doesn`t look random. They say there`s somebody is out there on the loose, whoever murdered the Colegrove family, and it was a specific act. Whoever it was may have known them personally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators are out there knocking on doors, stopping traffic, checking up with neighbors and friends to find out more about who may have committed these murders. They say that they have found -- a suspicious pickup truck was seen in the Kirk (ph) Road neighborhood, where the Colegrove lived, early that morning. And they`re asking that anybody in this community who knows anything about that vehicle call state police based in Towanda.

Other than that, neighbors say that they`re locking their doors. They`re frightened and upset over the loss of a former fire chief, a beloved bus driver and son Michael, who was a volunteer at the Laceyville elementary school.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And to tonight`s "Case Alert." YouTube joins the hunt for missing children, the video-sharing Web site today launching a channel called, "Don`t you forget about me." It features clips of more than 25 missing children from around the world. The site is created by Jerry and Kate McCann, the parents of missing 4-year-old Madeleine McCann. She recently disappeared from the family`s hotel room in Portugal. In addition to YouTube, they are working with Google and the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t believe we have a random killer or killers. I do believe this is a specific act. I know -- you know, there is a killer that is not in custody right now, but I do not see a random act here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. Thank you for joining us again.

We`ve got a caller. Sunny from Ohio. Hi, Sunny.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jean.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t want to speak ill of the dead or anything, but I just wondered if there is any possibility, any slight possibility at all of a murder-suicide perpetrated by the son having an argument with his parents?

CASAREZ: That`s a very good question. And police have determined conclusively, they said, that it was not murder-suicide, which is an interesting fact.

Let`s go to Paul Henderson, San Francisco deputy district attorney. How do you think they determined that it was not murder-suicide? I mean, one reason could be that a shotgun is a very long gun and possibly you just couldn`t do that. How else can they determine that so early on?

PAUL HENDERSON, SAN FRANCISCO DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, one of the things that they`ll look at is the placement of the victims and how they were killed.

This case is particularly tragic. You know, this is a small community. The entire family was killed. And they were well loved.

What I`d like to point out is that Pennsylvania does have the death penalty, and so in a homicide like this, where you see people killed in the style that, you know, is often called execution style, that reflects an element of inference of premeditation, and so that means that whomever was responsible for this is likely to be facing the ultimate sentence for this case. It`s a real tragedy.

CASAREZ: And that`s a very good point. To Steve Greenberg, defense attorney. He`s right, it`s a death penalty case. And police are saying this family was targeted. That`s not a good word for you, is it, as a defense attorney.

STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It isn`t. And this has all the earmarkings of a pre-planned execution. I would suspect that there`s more than one person involved because you`ve got three individuals, each found in their beds, each shot in the face. They`re trying to send a message to somebody by killing these three people. If the people do get caught, they`re going to spend the rest of their life in prison or get the death penalty, if they get convicted.

I don`t know what kind of evidence they have here. They think it`s a pickup truck. That`s all we know. That`s probably from tire markings or something like that. But if they don`t even have a color, they`d better hope for a big break of someone spilling the beans.

CASAREZ: Steve, does it help at all if it`s found out through the evidence collection that the targeting was a burglary situation, and once they got in there, it became a murder situation?

GREENBERG: I don`t think that would make any difference. If you`ve got three different people and they`re loved, like they say, in this community, they`re going to throw the book or the hammer at these guys.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State police say a witness early Tuesday morning saw a pickup truck around the Colegroves` home. Also, the Colegroves had two other sons. State police say they are not involved in this investigation. They`ve been ruled out. But they are for sure on one thing. The search for the killer or killers is centered right here in Bradford County.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight.

Let`s go to another caller. Deidra in West Virginia. Hi, Deidra.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you tonight?

CASAREZ: Fine. Your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I was wondering, you know, possibly if they were in the same room or were they in separate rooms? And if they were in separate rooms, is there a possibility there had to be more than one shooter? Because it looks like one of them could have got up and got away or something, you know?

CASAREZ: You know, that`s such an excellent question because what I had thought about was -- they think this crime was committed during the course of the night, when people are sleeping. And you`ve got a husband or wife, and they were shot in separate rooms.

Let me go back to Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers of the Nutley, New Jersey, Police Department. If you`re coming in and you`ve got three people and you`re executing them, how do you stop -- or how do you think they stopped the other people from attacking them while they`re killing one person?

ROGERS: Well, that`s the question that has to be answered. It sounds like there was more than one shooter. I mean, you hear a shotgun blast, it`s like a bolt of lightning and thunder ripping right through the sky. Somebody`s going to wake up and try to run out.

CASAREZ: All right. Let`s go to Brian Russell, forensic psychologist out there. When someone shoots in you the head, is that a personal crime? Are they sending a message?

BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: You know, Jean, if any of our viewers have seen or read, ever seen the movie "In Cold Blood" or read the book "In Cold Blood," there are such striking similarities here. You know, that was a botched robbery. This really looks more like a rage killing. It`s not organized well enough to look like a non-affiliated psychopath, but it`s too organized to look like a drug thing or a mental illness thing.

CASAREZ: All right. Thank you, Dr. Russell.

When we come back, police uncover a gruesome scene -- the smell of decaying flesh, swarms of fleas and blood splatter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sheriff deputies say they found evidence of a dogfighting operation at 28-year-old James Ling`s residence. They say that`s where he abandoned the dogs, leaving them for dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They found a treadmill where you can exercise the dogs. They can walk continuously without the aid of a person, more or less. They also found a spring pole which is used to strengthen a dog`s jaw. We found syringes, several medical paraphernalia like that where they could give their own shots, give their own antibiotics, give their own steroids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. This next story, it`s going to rip your heart out if you are a dog owner or a dog lover. But we want to show it to you because you`ve got to see what`s happening out there, and you`ve got to see what law enforcement is doing.

James Ling, 28 years old, let me tell what he`s charged with, four counts of felony ill treatment of animals, 15 counts of misdemeanor ill treatment of animals and 15 counts of misdemeanor inoculation of pets, not giving them their rabies shots. This could go up to dogfighting charges.

Let`s go straight out to Daniel Brownstein, reporter for the "Island Packet." Let`s start from the beginning. How did police find out about all these dogs on Mr. Ling`s property?

DANIEL BROWNSTEIN, "THE ISLAND PACKET": It started out with the landlord of Mr. Ling calling deputies on July 27th. And the landlord believed that Mr. Ling had abandoned some pit bulls on his property.

CASAREZ: All right. And when they got there, when they arrived, what did they find?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, sheriff`s reports are notoriously sterile, but this one is very, very detailed. It describes a gruesome scene. They found a total of 15 pit bulls. Three were dead. One was chained in a -- described as an unfinished garage, with kind of a blood-stained plywood wall. The second dead dog was found in a dog house and the third under a utility trailer. The remaining 12 are pretty emaciated, covered with fleas, various injuries, missing fur. One stood up for a couple moments, and they gave it a couple dog treats, and it devoured them whole and then collapsed back onto the ground.

CASAREZ: You know, Daniel, you`re right. It is such a gruesome scene. I`ve got the supplemental incident report from police. I`ve just got to read some of this. "At first glance, the canine appeared to be deceased. He was extremely emaciated, and I could see almost the bones and ribs in his whole body. As I approached the canine, a juvenile advised me that he was deaf and I would have to touch him to get a response. When I reached down to touch him, he could barely raise his head. I helped him to his feet. I photographed him. He could only stand a few seconds before collapsing back in the hole where he was lying in."

To Ed Miller from "America`s Most Wanted," what more can you tell us about when police arrived on the scene, what did they find?

ED MILLER, REPORTER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, it`s just horrible, because basically you can say it any way you want, but these dogs were tortured, in essence, and starved to death. The 12 were so bad off that there was no way they could save them. When they took them back to the vet, they had to be put to sleep. They were simply beyond saving.

And, also, they did point out the fact that the dogs, even if they could save them, they were overly aggressive, so those dogs were obviously trained to be part of this blood sport -- I think that`s a great phrase to call it, blood sport. And this is the kind of story, I know you mentioned, for animal lovers, but it`s for people everywhere. They should understand what`s going on, and the spotlight of your show points it out so wonderfully.

CASAREZ: Now, we want to tell everybody this is file video to just show you exactly what dogfighting is like. We want to go to Paul Henderson, San Francisco deputy district attorney. Now, South Carolina, they have a dogfighting statute in place. They have a task force in South Carolina. This case is not a dogfighting case yet. Why not?

PAUL HENDERSON, SAN FRANCISCO DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, what they`re doing now is collecting evidence, and they`re racking up charges as they go along. One of the interesting things about South Carolina is that they have a particularly stringent law against animal abuse and animal fighting. So in that state, you are charged with a felony for dogfighting, for possession of dogs that fight. You are even charged with a felony for being a spectator at dogfights.

And each of these felony charges carry a mandatory sentence of 180 days of custody, and so this guy is facing 33 charges. I think we`re looking at some serious prison time here, and that`s the way this case is moving. This guy is not going to be out of custody for a long, long time for this case. It`s really just a tragedy.

CASAREZ: It is a tragedy. To Gwen in Canada, hi, Gwen.

CALLER: Hi, how are you?

CASAREZ: All right.

CALLER: I`d like to know why there are not stricter rules and laws for people that cause abuse to animals?

CASAREZ: All right, I think you`ve got a great question, and I think we`ve got the person that can answer it, John Goodwin, manager of animal fighting issues with the American Humane Society. How would you answer that question?

JOHN GOODWIN, HUMANE SOCIETY: Well, you know, we got legislation through the Congress this year that made it a federal felony to have any interstate transport of animals for animal fighting ventures. And there were actually paid lobbyists in Washington, D.C., paid for by cockfighting groups, that raised money at illegal cockfights and gave it to these lobbyists to influence certain members of Congress to try to delay stronger legislation from being passed to protect animals.

CASAREZ: All right, well, there`s your answer to the question.

To Steve Greenberg, defense attorney, all right, you`re representing this man. You`ve got a tough case right here, because he lived in the mobile home. The dogs were on the property. They found a treadmill that`s used to train a dog. They found a spring pole which is used to train a dog to be a fighter. They found steroids to build up the dog. How do you defend him?

STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Can I take the Fifth on this one, Jean? It`s an uphill battle, that`s for sure, because everything is there that makes it look like there was definitely dogfighting going on. I think in this kind of a case, what you do is you go in, and if the evidence is exactly as they say, they can put him at the scene, you try and cut the best deal you can.

CASAREZ: And, you know, Steve, I think what they can do at this point is that dogfighting occurred there, but was it James Ling? Because the mobile home where he lived, there wasn`t any furniture there, and the dogs, horrifically as it was, they were near death, so the operation didn`t appear to be ongoing. Tough defense.

GREENBERG: Jean, what he`s charged with right now, the maximum sentence, I believe, is five years. The dogfighting, I know there was a similar case in South Carolina a year or two ago where someone got 40 years. So one of the things as a defense attorney that you try and do sometimes is minimize the pain to your client. In this case, you might want to get in as quick as possible, cut your deal, take your penalty that you get, but then jeopardy attaches and they can`t bring additional charges later on. So that sometimes is the best defense strategy. Not every case can be beat.

CASAREZ: That`s a very good point. Mitigation is what it`s called.

I want to go, before the break, to San Francisco Deputy District Attorney Paul Henderson. You know, the Michael Vick case, I`ve been following that, because it is a federal dogfighting case.

HENDERSON: Absolutely.

CASAREZ: The Humane Society wanted to euthanize all of the dogs in the Michael Vick case because of their aggressiveness. The U.S. attorney stepped up to the plate and said, "No, they`re going to live because they are evidence." These dogs were euthanized by a veterinarian that made that decision. Could that be something that the D.A. will regret as it goes on, if this is elevated to dogfighting and if this could become a federal case, because it could be?

HENDERSON: Right, that`s the kind of evidence oftentimes you want to try and show a jury in these types of cases that these aren`t regular dogs. These are not animal lovers. These are people that take advantage of animals, that train them to be aggressive. And when you have a videotape and you have a live dog, juries really get and can understand that this isn`t someone`s pet. This is a kind of animal that someone has used as a tool for their own profit, and they really have abused these animals. And having them alive and as a live display for jurors really help you when you`re trying to convince someone that this is an animal that was used inappropriately.

CASAREZ: I think you are right. Let`s go to Sheila in Illinois. Hello, Sheila. Good evening.

CALLER: It`s Sheba, sweetie.

CASAREZ: I`m sorry.

CALLER: That`s OK. My question is -- I`ll make it real quick -- but my dad always said people that would do these acts to animals will eventually do them to children. And I`m wondering how people on your panel feel about that, but personally I think it`s true.

CASAREZ: That`s a very good question, because a lot of major criminals started with animals. Let`s go to Ed Miller, "America`s Most Wanted." Response?

MILLER: Absolutely. There have been study after study that shows that people that are cruel to animals eventually accelerate their crimes and move on to other crimes usually against people.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even though animal control officers found some of the animals still alive, they couldn`t save them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s one of the worst ones we`ve had in many, many years with this many animals. It always touches us when we have something, you know, that`s starving on the chain, not being cared for properly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A veterinarian examined all of the dogs and determined that they needed to be euthanized, not only because they were in such poor condition, but because they were very aggressive.

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CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez from Court TV sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. You are watching file video, but we are talking about a very real case in South Carolina that is right now animal cruelty. Dozens of pit bulls found close to death or even dead on the property of 28-year-old James Ling. Right now, the charges are state charges of animal cruelty, but that could change to dogfighting charges.

I want to go to Bobby Brown who is the director of the documentation "Off the Chain." You infiltrated dogfighting rings. You know what this is all about. Is this a dogfighting operation we`re looking at tonight?

BOBBY BROWN, DIRECTOR, "OFF THE CHAIN": Well, Jean, when I was making the documentary, I was trying to enlighten the American public of what exactly is going on in their town, in their city. And if you see an individual with 10, 12 pit bulls in their backyard, you know something is obviously going wrong here.

CASAREZ: You know, one thing that`s in the police report is that there was a male on the scene when the police got there, and they were searching, and he said, "Oh, you see that pit bull that`s over there, I bought that one. That`s mine for $1,200." Are police talking to people just like him right now? Because to have a dogfighting situation, you`ve got to have more than James Ling, right? You`ve got to have other people that fought their dogs against his.

BROWN: Oh, yes, it`s obvious. I mean, if you come up to the yard and they have the battle wounds and the scars, the evidence is there. I mean, you know what`s going on.

CASAREZ: You know, one more question, Bobby. Is dogfighting getting more prevalent in this country, or are we becoming more aware and law enforcement is doing more about it?

BROWN: I think the law enforcement, now that it`s in the public eye, the law enforcement is getting involved, and I think the public awareness is heightened. And people are getting involved now and making phone calls because they see, you know, two or three dogs in the backyard, so I think the awareness is there now.

CASAREZ: All right. Got to go to somebody very special, Penny Douglass Furr. Penny, you`re special, but you`ve got somebody else that`s very special with you tonight. It is Simba, your dog right there.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.

CASAREZ: Welcome to Simba. You know, Penny, right now we`ve got an animal cruelty situation. Do you see, as you look at all of these facts, that this case will become a dogfighting case? And could it even go into a federal dogfighting case and, if so, how?

FURR: Yes, Jean. I think it should go into a federal case, if not at least a dogfighting case, because I think there is enough circumstantial evidence. And I think we have to pass some legislation to get some control over the breeders, because a lot of counties and states are putting down the breed, and they`re trying to say you can`t have pit bulls, you can`t have Rottweilers.

Well, Simba is a Rottweiler that`s just so sweet, and he`s just raised to be a great dog, but it has to be with a responsible breeder and a responsible owner that socializes them. And I firmly believe we`ve just got to get more control over the breeders out there, because when these people that do dogfighting can breed dogs, and it`s just getting totally out of control.

But one earlier caller -- I really wanted to say something to your caller. I handled a murder case earlier in my career, and my client was about 19 years old. I sent him to a therapist to determine if we had any kind of psych defense, and he had started off killing and torturing animals. And so that`s why I know that that is true and that they do move onto people.

CASAREZ: And I`ve seen that at Court TV with our trial coverage, also, very much so. Thank you, Penny.

FURR: Thank you, Jean.

CASAREZ: We`ve got a caller, Kristi in Indiana. Good evening, Kristi.

CALLER: Hi. I`d like to know, in regards to keeping these animals alive for evidentiary value, when does that cross the line with it being humane to euthanize the animal?

CASAREZ: You know, that`s a good point, and I think there is a line. These animals were very sick, and that is one reason, I understand, that they euthanized them. But yet we saw one that one that was alive when law enforcement was on the property, they gave him a doggy biscuit, and he just gobbled it up. So possibly these dogs could have been nursed to health, and you then at trial could have the before picture of the emaciation, which shows the animal cruelty, and you could see them healthy, but you could still see the aggressiveness. And that`s the point of the dogfighting, right?

I want to go to Brian Russell, forensic psychologist. You know, I`ve been reading everything I can about the Michael Vick case. And I see so many publications that talk about that people that do dogfighting and issues like this, that it`s part of their background, their upbringing, their friendships, their loyalties. And that could be used as a defense in court. Can you just help us all understand that?

BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Sure. You know, it kind of ties into the other story that we covered tonight. It shows a lot of rage. These people have a lot of rage. They have a sadistic, violent, aggressive, almost a bloodlust component to their personalities. But that in no way takes away the volitional nature of their decision to get involved in this horrendous sport of dogfighting.

And I will tell you, as a forensic psychologist, that other guests have been exactly right tonight when they have said that every American should be afraid of somebody who takes pleasure in the suffering of animals, because it`s only a matter of time before they move on to people. They typically escalate in their behavior. What used to give them the thrill starts to not, and they move on sooner or later to hurting a human being, if they haven`t already.

CASAREZ: And you know what I still don`t understand, what`s the thrill? How do you get a thrill out of that?

RUSSELL: You know, I wish I could explain that to you, Jean. It`s a sadistic component to their personality that I think is born of some rage about something that has been experienced earlier on in their lives, but there`s an explanation sometimes, but there`s certainly no excuse for acting out on it in that way.

CASAREZ: Have you ever seen in a court of law a defense with a mental defect or something in regard to that work in a case like this?

RUSSELL: I would be shocked. I would be shocked, Jean. I think that this is so -- you have to do so many things to be one of these guys that breeds these dogs and organizes these fights, so many things that require deliberate, purposive action, that I think it would be next to impossible in just about any state. And every state has a different standard for not guilty by reason of insanity defense, but in just about any state I think it would be next to impossible to say that you didn`t know what you were doing in one of these cases.

CASAREZ: All right, thank you, Dr. Brian Russell, forensic psychologist.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tucked away behind a wooded area of Kendlewood Lane (ph) is where Beaufort County authorities found a horrifying case of animal cruelty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What the officers was 12 live pit bulls on chains, very skinny, lots of hair loss, no food, no water. As they continued on, they found three dead dogs. The vet is pretty positive they were pit bulls.

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CASAREZ: And I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV sitting in for Nancy Grace. What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more importantly, the people who touched all of our lives.

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NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Kevin Federline drops a bombshell in court, demanding his two toddler sons back.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She is feeding these children junk food and soda.

GRACE: Don`t you watch the NANCY GRACE show, for Pete`s sake? You`ve got to be a stripper in a thong, shooting up heroin, lying on the courthouse steps before you get custody of -- oh, well, hi, Mom. Is that you on the pole doing a pole dance?

What is the motive for murder of the beautiful daughter of two elite NYU professors? Police hone in on a suicidal ex.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But here`s a guy that might not have really wanted to kill himself.

GRACE: What did he do, take a big pin and try to slit his wrists?

Scientific tests on the child`s hair reveal high and consistent use of cocaine and marijuana at age 3.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child said, "I like to get high."

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you just say the baby said, "I like to get high"?

An admitted pedophile, Jack McClellan, runs a Web site rating local venues as to how many children predators can hope to find here. Lawyers say he`s protected by the freedom of speech.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not just about...

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GRACE: You know, you need to go join the ACLU.

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CASAREZ: And tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Specialist Christopher Kube, just 18 years old, from Shelby Township, Michigan, killed in Iraq. He left for Iraq in October, one month after turning 18. As a young teenager, he loved to ride dirt bikes and go deer hunting with his father. While home on leave in February, he married his girlfriend, Tianna, who he met while stationed in Colorado. He leaves behind his grieving widow, his father, David, mother, Debbie, brothers, John and Jason, and sisters, Jessica and Jennifer. Christopher Kube, American hero.

I want to give a big thank you to all of our guests tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, everybody.

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