Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Karl Rove Announces Departure; Search Continues For Utah Miners
Aired August 13, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: A criminal illegal alien out on the street because local authorities would not notify U.S. immigration officials, he's in jail tonight, a suspect in the execution-style murders of three young people in Newark, New Jersey.
A group of free-market economists says we should just do away with our nation's borders altogether, allow everyone in, and our economy will thrive. What in the world are they thinking? We will have that special report.
And Karl Rove, a powerful political force behind the president's failed amnesty compromise and other failed policies, will his departure from the White House signal a change in the administration's direction?
And among our guests tonight, Congressman Silvestre Reyes, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. We will be talking about plans to secure our nation's borders and ports.
We will hear more on the Rove resignation, the results of the Iowa straw poll, and Hillary Clinton's prospects. All of that with our distinguished panel of political analysts and strategists and all the day's news and much more, straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Monday, August 13.
Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Rescue workers in Utah today prepared to drill a third hole trying to reach six miners trapped deep underground. Two previous holes found no sign of those miners. The miners were trapped a week ago when the ceiling and walls of the coal mine collapsed.
Brian Todd is at the rescue command center in Huntington, Utah, and joins us now with the very latest developments -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the head of Murray Energy Corporation has used words like heartbreaking to describe this effort. He says he's very disappointed that it's not gone faster. But they do have a mark of progress to show us, a camera that was lowered into the ground.
The third time these cameras were lowered into this one 8.5-inch hole, it bought back images like this one that we're showing you now. This was lowered into a chamber that we were told is about 300 feet from where the miners are believed to be trapped. It shows a chamber with wire meshing. It shows a couple of bags in there, piping. It also shows that the roof at least in this chamber has held for the most part.
This is one of the reasons that the CEO of Murray Energy Corporation, Robert Murray, points to reasons for hope. Here's what he had to say a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB MURRAY, PRESIDENT AND CEO, MURRAY ENERGY: Nowhere has the roof caved in. The roof is supported and in place. Secondly, as we have shown you in every photograph, there is a great deal of airspace, void, if you will, between that supported roof and the rubble that has come out from the rib outbursts. There is much volume for the trapping of air to support their lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: A third reason that he talked about for hope is that there is potable water in some pockets underground in this mine.
But some marks of this progress are a lot slower than they had hoped. This third hole that is to be drilled, this was delayed until this afternoon. They were begin it this afternoon, after talking about it for a couple of days, Lou, but it got delayed because they have to build roads up to the point where they drill that hole. They hope that that is going to get to a chamber where they believe the miners might have retreated to if they survived this collapse about a week ago -- Lou.
DOBBS: Brian, just a few questions to better understand what we're looking at in those pictures that you're bringing us. The water dripping there, is that as a result of the drill itself or is that part of the environment in the cavity there deep in the coal mine?
TODD: Unclear. They didn't really allude to that water. But they say that there is potable water in this mine. Some of it probably got there in the drilling pros. They went down several hundred feet to get to this point.
But Mr. Murray did say that there is potable water in pockets all over this mine in addition to the water that the miners brought with them in their lunch boxes. And water has also been stored in certain pockets of the mine for just this very purpose.
So, Bob Murray says that there is potable water in several pockets of the mine. This chamber that we showed you, though, is about 300 feet from where they're believed to be trapped.
DOBBS: Three hundred feet from where they're believed to be trapped. Brian, also the temperature in that mine as well, because that's very important obviously for the minors to avoid hypothermia. And now that we're entering the eighth day, food and water, critically important. Any assessment as to how much food they might have if these miners, indeed, are trapped and are alive?
TODD: They're not clear on the amount of food, because this collapse did occur in the early morning hours. And the miners all bring lunches with them. So, it's presumable that they would have had enough food at least in the lunch boxes, if they used it very, very sparingly, to survive for at least a few days, water not as much of an issue, Lou.
As we have discussing, the water, the potability of the water down there, they say that it's drinkable and that these men can survive on that. There is a slight concern, though, about the air that's being pumped in when they're drilling all these holes, whether it's oxygen-deficient or not. That's a concern that they have in drilling all these holes, but they're still going to try to drill them. Again, a third hole expected to be drilled this afternoon.
DOBBS: This second drill, 300 feet from where they believe the miners to be trapped, how far from them in this third drilling?
TODD: Well, this third...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Where they're believed to be.
TODD: Right.
This third drilling is a deeper part of the mine. It should be much further away than that, because this is a deeper part of the mine where they think if they survived this collapse they could have retreated into. They're just mapping out places in this area where they could have gone and maybe put up a curtain to shield. It's like an oxygen curtain essentially to preserve some oxygen in a chamber where they might be able to retreat to.
And, again, these are -- a lot of this is guesswork, quite frankly. I mean, Mr. Murray did say himself that this is trial and error, the drilling process. They're going down to areas where -- they're looking at this on the map. They're looking at where these gentlemen are presumed to be. And they're saying, well, here's a chamber where they might have retreated to if they survived this collapse.
That's what they're drilling toward now. This drill that's going down now is going down 1,400-plus feet, though. It's going to take a little while to get there.
DOBBS: Brian, thank you very much -- Brian Todd, who will have more developments for us throughout the evening. He will be joining us here later in the broadcast for other assessments of what these miners, if indeed they are alive, are facing.
And, in Minnesota, a ninth body has been found, almost two weeks after the Minneapolis bridge disaster. The victim is identified as 20-year-old Richard Chit. Navy divers are still looking to recover the bodies of four motorists missing since the collapse of the bridge on August 1; 44 vehicles have been removed from the wreckage of that bridge so far.
Turning now to the war in Iraq, it has been a deadly several days for our troops in Iraq. Since Friday, seven more of our troops have been killed. Six soldiers were killed in action in and around Baghdad. A seventh soldier killed in what the military described as a non-battle-related incident; 32 of our troops have been killed so far this month, 3,690 of our troops killed since the war began; 27,279 of our troops have been wounded, 12,267 of them seriously.
Karl Rove, the president's chief political strategist and longtime friend, today said he will step down at the end of this month. Rove told the president early last summer he wanted to leave his post, but he couldn't decide when to go.
Suzanne Malveaux reports now from the White House -- Suzanne.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After 34 years by George W. Bush's side, his closest political adviser and friend is calling it quits.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have been friends for a long time. And we're still going to be friends.
KARL ROVE, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BUSH: It has been the joy and the honor of a lifetime.
MALVEAUX: Karl Rove first met Mr. Bush in Texas in 1973. And 20 years later, he ran his campaign for Texas governor. As an astute political operator, Rove was responsible for the hardball tactics that led to that win in 1994, and subsequently the White House in 2000 and 2004.
He is the last member of Mr. Bush's inner circle to leave the White House, one of three Texas loyalists who helped launch his political career.
ROVE: Through it all, you have remained the same man. Your integrity, character and decency have remained unchanged and inspiring.
MALVEAUX: His fingerprints are on just about everything, the successes and the failures. He is credited for making national security the defining issue that sealed Mr. Bush's reelection win in 2004. He's also praised for promoting the Republican base's so-called compassionate conservative agenda.
But Rove failed to deliver key legislation at the heart of Mr. Bush's domestic policy, reforming Social Security and immigration. As the president faces increasing pressure to bring U.S. troops home from Iraq, some see Rove's departure as a significant blow.
WAYNE SLATER, AUTHOR, "THE ARCHITECT: KARL ROVE AND THE MASTER PLAN FOR ABSOLUTE POWER": This is the end of the Bush presidency, absolutely. All lame ducks are lame ducks. This one with Karl Rove now turning out the lights is the most lame duck we have seen in a long time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he's so smart, how come you lost Congress?
MALVEAUX: During the course of the past year, Rove has faced a number of setbacks, including losing the Republican majority in Congress, being identified as one of the leakers of CIA operative Valerie Plame Wilson, although he was cleared of any legal wrongdoing, and more recently becoming the focus of numerous Democratic-led congressional investigations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And, Lou, in an e-mail exchange with Karl Rove earlier today, I asked him, how does he respond to those who say simply that he's being run out of town?
In his typical Karl Rove kind of way, he responded, saying, that sounds like the rooster claiming to have called up the sun, making the point that this is his call to make.
Chief of Staff Josh Bolten says that it's likely that he is not going to be replaced, but, rather, all of his duties divided among a group within the staff itself. And Karl Rove saying today that he's not going to officially sign on to any particular Republican presidential candidate, but he did say that if they want his advice, including the president, they know how to reach him -- Lou.
DOBBS: I doubt he would be reticent if that call were to come through.
Thank you very much, Suzanne Malveaux, from the White House.
DOBBS: Karl Rove, among other policies, also helped form the Bush administration's amnesty agenda.
And, as Lisa Sylvester now reports, many conservatives are hoping his departure from the president's inner circle may mean a change of direction on the issue of amnesty.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Karl Rove kept a picture of this grand-grandfather, a Norwegian immigrant, on the wall of his West Wing office. His roots helped shape his views on immigration.
ROVE: Everything that we hold, everything that we promise, is because we're a nation of diversity brought together by immigration and sharing a common dream.
SYLVESTER Rove helped frame the Bush administration position, tying border security to a guest-worker plan and a path towards legalizing illegal aliens. That put not only Rove but the White House at odds with many members of the Republican Party.
Congressman Tom Tancredo remembers Rove's swift response when he criticized the president's position, which Tancredo said smacked of amnesty.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R-CO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It was a very nasty very acrimonious conversation for about 20 minutes. Toward the last -- it may have been the last thing he said -- was, don't ever darken the doorstep of this White House.
SYLVESTER On Friday, the Bush administration unveiled a new strategy that emphasized border security without a guest-worker program. With Rove now out, conservative groups are banking on a further shift in the administration's thinking.
BRIAN DARLING, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It was a mistake to use this amnesty bill as a vehicle to reach out to Hispanic voters. It didn't work out by virtue of the fact that the American people rejected the amnesty approach to solving our broken immigration system.
SYLVESTER The White House insists its new immigration strategy is not a reversal, just an acceptance of reality.
DANA PERINO, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: Congress is not going to pass through a comprehensive immigration bill before the president leaves office. I think that's just a reality that we have faced.
SYLVESTER And for a political strategist like Karl Rove, you can't win them all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER Now, the conservative Heritage Foundation does give Karl Rove major credit as a successful political strategist who helped engineer victories in the 2000 and 2004 elections, but immigration is one major exception where his views differed with the conservative base -- Lou.
DOBBS: Also a major exception, of course, would be the election of 2006, in which the Republicans were swept out of the leadership of both houses and -- the majority in both houses of Congress. A checkered record at best over the course of the past three or four years for Karl Rove.
What do we make of the idea that the White House will not even replace him but rather apparently partition his responsibilities amongst existing White House officials?
SYLVESTER: Well, Karl Rove, as you well know, was largely seen -- and in fact people use the term Bush's brain. And, in a sense, they don't want to think of him as being a replaceable figure, but they will sort of -- will spread out his tasks among other people.
And I think what that really indicates is that they want to get some fresh views. They want to get some fresh thinking, particularly when it comes to immigration -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much -- Lisa Sylvester from Washington. New developments in the execution-style slayings of three young people in the sanctuary city of Newark, New Jersey. One of the suspects is a criminal illegal alien.
Bill Tucker has the report tonight. He's live in Newark, New Jersey -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we are at the memorial for the three young student who were so senselessly slain here in Newark. But this story is not a story that's necessarily unique to this city or this state. It's a story that could have happened in any of the sanctuary cities scattered throughout the country. We will be back with the details later in the program -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much.
Bill Tucker, he will have that report for us from Newark.
Also ahead, a group of economists says open our borders altogether, and the economy as a result will be great for everyone. Well, not everyone. American workers, well, American workers don't really matter, do they? We will have that report.
And will Americans vote for someone they don't like? Will they vote for someone who can lead this nation? We will tell you what the latest polls say.
And we're awaiting word right now from NASA on whether a damaged shuttle tile will need repair before reentry.
Stay with us. All of those reports and a great deal more straight ahead.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Advocates of so-called free trade continue to push their agenda at the expense of middle-class workers and in point of fact the solvency of our government. Free market economists now are calling for an outright open borders policy, one that would allow even more cheap foreign labor into the country.
Christine Romans has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Economist Benjamin Powell argues for open immigration for an unlimited number of unskilled workers.
BENJAMIN POWELL, INDEPENDENT INSTITUTE: The free market approach to immigration -- and I know this will sound a bit radical -- is unrestricted immigration from anywhere in the world at any quantity and any skill level of workers who want to come here. ROMANS: Last year, some 500 American economists signed an open letter to the president and members of Congress. They did not distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, but wrote, "Immigration has been a net gain for American citizens, though a modest one in proportion to the size of our $13 trillion economy."
The economists said immigration lowers consumer prices, but acknowledged it may harm some Americans -- quote -- "Legitimate concerns about the impact on the poorest Americans should not be addressed by penalizing even poorer immigrants."
ALEXANDER TABARROK, GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY: Well, economists are in favor of free trade, and immigration is just free trade in labor, very similar to free trade in apples. It's not that different.
ROMANS: He advocates unlimited immigration of skilled workers and says concerns about illegal immigration are overblown. Solve illegal immigration, he says, by making it easier for everyone to become legal.
"The Wall Street Journal" editorial board has long been the standard-bearer of the free market open borders view, writing during the last contentious immigration reform debate in 1984 -- quote -- "If Washington still wants to do something about immigration, we propose a five-word constitutional amendment: There shall be open borders."
Even today, "The Journal" supports amnesty for illegal aliens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: But the late Milton Friedman said in 1999 that open immigration and a welfare state are incompatible. He said it's just not possible.
Open borders advocate and economist Powell, who we talked to for our piece, he says free market economists should not take that as an indictment of open immigration, Lou, but an indictment of the social safety net instead.
DOBBS: What are we dealing with here? These folks go to college. They go to their master's program, their Ph.D. program. They're reasonably well-educated. What in the world could they possibly be thinking because the consequences are staring them directly in the face?
ROMANS: It's people as units of labor, people moving across borders just like goods, the idea that if you don't have border security, you don't have borders between nations, that when the economy gets worse in this country, people will go someplace else, that there's really no difference between a working moving from Massachusetts to California...
DOBBS: If this country went into depression, its economy would be better than that of any Central or South American nation.
ROMANS: And that's the competing point of view. There are 4.8 billion people in the world who...
DOBBS: Well, it's not a competing point of view. That's a statement of fact. That's just a straightforward fact.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Are there any empiricists among these idiotic economists?
ROMANS: There are a lot of economists, Lou, who take the pure free market view.
Now, there are some economists who consider themselves completely free market economists who say it's just not politically or it's not that palatable to just say open the borders for everyone.
DOBBS: And this idiot -- and I have to apologize, Professor, but I think you're a complete idiot.
When you compare a man and a woman working for a living in this country, raising a family, to an apple, you're an idiot. How could you possibly do that?
What -- have you got any insight into this man's either intelligence or knowledge?
ROMANS: Well, Lou, I mean, I wouldn't say...
DOBBS: Five hundred economists signing on to this?
(LAUGHTER)
ROMANS: Not every economist believes that you should completely open the borders.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Oh, I know not everyone does.
ROMANS: But...
DOBBS: But 500 of them were dumb enough to sign this thing.
ROMANS: Well, a lot of the sort of free market -- Lou, it's just the free market point of view.
DOBBS: Do you remember when we used to talk about something in this country called free enterprise democracy?
ROMANS: That's right.
DOBBS: These jackasses have now tried to supplant that with free market or free trade. This is still a nation founded on a free enterprise democracy in which the two work together, a role of government, a proper role for government, a proper role for business, and putting -- how about exalting labor and the American citizen? I don't know if they have got a differential calculus equation that they could run through their models, those 500 economists, but I would sure urge them to try soon.
Thanks for really getting me annoyed tonight, Christine.
ROMANS: I honestly didn't mean to get you annoyed, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, it's bringing me the -- I better not even say it.
(LAUGHTER)
ROMANS: All right.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
I cannot believe it -- 500 -- count them, folks, 500 of them -- signing on to that nonsense. They should work full-time for the administration, for crying out loud, and the Democratic leadership of Congress.
Time now for some of your thoughts. We want to turn to you for rationality, away from the economists who are out completely of their minds.
Thousands of you e-mailing us about the murders in Newark, New Jersey, where the suspect is a known, the principal suspect, is a known criminal illegal alien.
Bill in North Carolina said: "Lou, the families of those murdered college students should file a lawsuit against the city officials of Newark for wrongful death. The harboring of illegal aliens in this sanctuary city caused the deaths of these young people. Wonder if the ACLU will help these families."
Don't hold your breath.
Gerald in Nevada: "If our government is sincere in cracking down on illegal immigration, then how about they go after the sanctuary cities?"
A great, great suggestion.
We will have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast.
A worldwide recall today announced by the communist Chinese government, a recall of toothpaste distributed to luxury hotels around the world. Tests show that the tubes of toothpaste with the name Gilchrist & Soames contain a toxic chemical used in antifreeze.
And, in China, the head of the toy manufacturing company involved in a huge recall of toys contaminated with lead paint and recalled in this country killed himself at one of the company's warehouses.
The contaminated toys in that recall, by the way, included models of Big Bird, Elmo and Thomas the Tank Engine.
Coming up next here: Hillary Clinton's political baggage. We will have a report on why voters think she's unlikable, but very electable.
And later: trouble in space. NASA has discovered a disturbingly deep gouge in the Endeavour's heat shield. Could it affect the shuttle's ability to fly home safely?
We will have that special report -- space correspondent Miles O'Brien standing by with that story.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, Hillary Clinton, the front-runner by a considerable margin in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, is sometimes described as polarizing. She appears to some to evoke very strong feelings of like and often dislike. Still, she is leading the pack of those Democratic presidential hopefuls.
But, as Bill Schneider now reports, Democrats are quietly afraid that Hillary Clinton's unlikability could cause a backlash among voters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Are Democratic voters worried that Hillary Clinton may be difficult to elect? Apparently not. A majority of Democrats pick her as the candidate with the best chance of beating the Republican next year. Why? Because Democrats also pick her as the toughest and most experienced contender.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For 15 years, I have stood up against the right-wing machine and I have come out stronger. So, if you want a winner who knows how to take them on, I'm your girl.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
SCHNEIDER: But there's one quality where she does not stand out, likability. When asked which candidate do you find most likable, Democrats give the edge to Barack Obama. Clinton has been in the spotlight a long time. But maybe voters don't know her as well as they think they do.
STEPHANIE CUTTER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think that when Hillary Clinton says that she's the most famous person that people don't really know, I think there's a lot of accuracy to that.
SCHNEIDER: Senator Clinton has been to New Hampshire many times. Granite State Democrats agree that she's the strongest leader and has the best chance of beating the Republican. But they rate her even lower on likability. A poll in June showed that across the country, 44 percent of Americans had an unfavorable opinion of Hillary Clinton. Her campaign says all her negatives are already out there. We know Democrats like her and Republicans don't. Now she has to win over independents, most of whom don't like her. They're swing voters who can decide the outcome.
But Clinton has a not-so-secret weapon.
CUTTER: There's a whole new segment of people that are going to come out and vote for her, including women.
SCHNEIDER: Women. Most women like Hillary Clinton. No likability gap there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The Associated Press reports that a lot of Democratic leaders around the country and particularly in red states are worried that with Hillary Clinton at the top of the ticket, it could hurt other Democrats.
Now, most of the more than 40 Democrats interviewed by the AP would only express those concerns anonymously. You know, maybe that's evidence that she has clout -- Lou.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Well...
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: So, if she's got a 17 percent likability among women margin there...
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
DOBBS: ... her problem, in terms of likability, if it is indeed a problem, then rests solely with men?
SCHNEIDER: I well, I think it would have to. That's all that's left.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, it is the modern age.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHNEIDER: Men have a divided opinion. They don't like her nearly as much as women do. And the hope among her campaign people is that a lot of women will be thrilled at the prospect of the first women president and will come out in large numbers and vote, and that will cancel out the expected effect among Republicans.
DOBBS: But it raises the question, Bill, I mean, why do men not like her?
SCHNEIDER: Ah. Why do men not like her?
Well, a lot of men don't like Democrats. A lot of men don't like people with liberal cultural views. And a lot of men don't like professional women who they think are going to take too much government and control their lives -- lots of reasons why men might not like her. But a lot of men do. She splits men.
DOBBS: So -- so, when we talk about this, we're talking about not necessarily totally an emotional reaction because she's a woman, but rather to what she stands for, and they don't like her positions. It might be as valid a reason to say you don't like her as the fact that you just -- it sounds a little more, if you will, granular and concrete the way you express it there than just likability.
SCHNEIDER: Yes. It does have a lot to do with positions. I mean, look, there's always a difference between men and women in terms of their support for Democrats and Republicans. That's been around since Ronald Reagan.
DOBBS: Right.
SCHNEIDER: and that shows up even larger with Hillary Clinton.
DOBBS: All right. Well, Bill, thank you very much, as always.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider from Washington.
Up next here, we'll have the latest for you on the increasingly desperate search for those six missing miners in Utah. We'll have a live update for you.
Will the president's new immigration enforcement plan make a difference?
We'll hear from Congressman Silvestre Reyes.
And a criminal illegal alien out on bail is now charged in three brutal murders.
Why wasn't he in jail?
Why hadn't he been deported?
We'll have the story.
And NASA facing a decision tonight -- should they repair a damaged heat shield before the space shuttle returns home?
We'll have the latest for you.
Miles O'Brien reporting.
Stay with us.
We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: There are new developments tonight in the execution-style murders of three college students in New Jersey. Those shootings took place in the sanctuary city of Newark. One of the three suspects already in custody is an illegal alien from Peru.
Jose Carranza was free on bail for assault and child rape at the time he allegedly committed the murders.
Newark's sanctuary policies protect illegal aliens, even those charged with commission of crimes. Now, one City Councilman is pushing to change the sanctuary policy.
Bill Tucker tonight is in Newark, New Jersey with the very latest developments for us -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as you mentioned, sanctuary policies do protect illegal aliens. But they clearly don't protect law abiding residents.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): Newark, New Jersey is a don't ask/don't tell city when it comes to the question of immigration status. City Councilman Ronald Rice wants that policy ended where criminals are concerned. He's introduced legislation to require the city to work with federal immigration authorities.
RONALD RICE, NEWARK CITY COUNCIL: I think it just covers some of the gaps that exist in terms of intelligence sharing, information sharing about folks that are in our community. And I think part of the problem that we had in this situation was we had something that may have potentially fallen through the cracks.
TUCKER: It wasn't just a matter of cracks. The prosecutors in Essex County, where Newark is located, knew full well that Jose Carranza is an illegal alien.
TOM MCTIDE, ASSISTANT PROSECUTOR, ESSEX COUNTY, NEW JERSEY: We determined that this person was an undocumented alien as we were conducting a homicide investigation. I'm just going to leave it at that. The procedure is complex.
TUCKER: That attitude is not surprising. New Jersey's governor, Jon Corzine, does not support having state or local police involved in immigration enforcement under the federal authority known as 287(g) on the grounds that it will hinder law enforcement. Corzine has been sharply critical of the Morristown, New Jersey mayor who supports 287(g) authority, is seeking it and calls it necessary.
MAYOR DON CRESITELLO, MORRISTOWN, NEW JERSEY: If this is the individual who committed the murders, then those children would be alive today. And I call upon every mayor in New Jersey and every county sheriff to make sure that they request that 287(g) be instituted and implemented in their communities and their counties so that the people of this state can be safe. TUCKER: Jose Carranza had been indicted twice this year by grand juries for aggravated assault and weapons charges and on aggravated sexual assault of a child. He was free on bond in both cases.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
TUCKER: Now, Lou, there is a second adult suspect in this case who is a legal permanent resident with a long record of aggravated felony arrests. But the state pleaded down those felony arrests to lesser charges, which meant that he was not and has not been eligible for deportation. And, in fact, back in 2002, he got a green card to stay here despite his record of arrest and time spent on probation -- Lou.
DOBBS: This is -- this is just outrageous in every -- in every imaginable way.
TUCKER: Yes.
DOBBS: The governor of the State of New Jersey, John Corzine -- I just want to say this to the governor.
Please come, Governor, to this broadcast.
We'll discuss your policies, your views and your opinions and how you can tolerate your own position on illegal immigration and sanctuary cities instead of upholding the law, which is your sworn duty.
So I would like to invite John Corzine to join us at any time. Be my guest.
Secondly, the idea that the prosecutors and the judges in this case would permit bail for a an obvious illegal alien in this country, who would be a flight risk, with these extraordinarily serious charges just boggles the mind.
Have they responded to what they were thinking?
TUCKER: No, Lou.
These are heinous, hideous crimes and they can't deny the fact that they let him out on $150,000 bail. No one is sure where that money came from. No one can tell us even now. And while they're all acting contrite, Lou, I've got to tell you, they didn't announce a policy change. They don't -- they seem ashamed, but not ready to change their policy.
DOBBS: Yes.
They're contrite, at least in public, but sanctimonious without regard for the communities they're supposed to be serving.
TUCKER: Right.
DOBBS: It's outrageous that we have -- from the Bush administration down to the local level in a city like Newark, New Jersey -- arrogance among officials that they can choose, pick and choose which laws they will enforce, disregard federal laws. Those sanctuary cities, we should point out, Bill, are in absolute contravention of federal law.
TUCKER: Yes.
They're explicitly prohibited under the 1996 Immigration Reform Act, Lou.
And if they had been following the law, there wouldn't be a memorial behind me to three kids who were shot in the back of the head.
DOBBS: And our hearts go out to those families of those three youngsters, bright, promising and their lives so -- so needlessly wasted.
And I hope that the city and local officials and the -- and, as I said, Governor Jon Corzine -- focus on their responsibilities and reassess their philosophies, at least which were contributory to the deaths of these young people, if these charges turn out to be upheld.
Bill Tucker, thank you very much, reporting from Newark, New Jersey.
We have, by the way, I should point out, invited the mayor of that sanctuary city to join us here, as well.
Now tonight's poll.
The question is do you believe sanctuary cities, so-called, should lose all funding from the federal government until they begin to enforce U.S. immigration law?
Yes or no?
Please cast your vote at loudobbs.com.
We'll have the results here later.
Rescue workers in Utah preparing to drill a third hole. They're trying desperately to reach six coal miners who have been trapped deep underground now for a week.
Brian Todd is in Huntington, Utah and joins us now with the very latest -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is a search effort that has its share of contradictions tonight.
On one hand, Bob Murray, the CEO of Murray Energy, comes out and says that this is heartbreaking, that he's very disappointed that he can't come out and say that they've found these gentlemen. He says these are the worst mining conditions that he's seen in 50 years. They talk about how difficult this process is. But, on the other hand, they show us images from a camera that has been lowered into a chamber that's a couple of hundred feet away, we believe, from where the trapped miners are believed to be. They say that there is reason to hope because the roof wall, the roof ceilings are holding in some key areas; that there is water in some areas; that there's air in some areas.
So those are the contradictory images that we're hearing and seeing today, Lou.
But the bottom line is no sign of these miners eight days into this search.
DOBBS: Brian, thank you very much.
Our Brian Todd reporting from Huntington, Utah.
And tonight, NASA engineers working on a plan to deal with a gash in the heat shield of the space shuttle Endeavour. They're considering asking those astronauts to make a risky spacewalk. That heat shield, of course, protects the shuttle during reentry.
Miles O'Brien now has the latest for us -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CHIEF TECHNOLOGY & ENVIRONMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the briefing is still going on. But we've gotten the basics of it and we've also gotten a rather dramatic picture of that gouge.
When you take a look at it, as the engineer in charge there, John Shannon, put it, it kind of looks like the Grand Canyon.
Take a look at this imagery, which is developed using laser technology, as well as high resolution imagery.
And as you move in and take a look at this gouge, it's -- remember, this is only two inches by three inches. And the color coding indicates depth.
Where it is the most purple is right down at the surface of the skin of the space shuttle. Some Nomex felt there, which covers -- separates it between the aluminum surface of the space shuttle.
Now, they have carefully analyzed this and they're beginning the whole process of doing computer simulations, as well as putting this all into an Arc-Jet Chamber, sort of a blast furnace, to see how the heat will react in the slipstream as the space shuttle Endeavour returns to Earth.
Let me just back up quickly to Wednesday and show you how this all began. It happened 58 seconds after launch. A softball sized piece of foam, insulating foam on that external fuel tank, falls off and hits a strut, ricochets and then makes its way -- take -- you can see that sort of splashing effect there -- makes its way to the lower portion of the underbelly of Endeavour.
It caused about four dings, including that deep one. There are three options on the table right now that they're considering as far as repairs.
They could go in and they could use kind of a shoe polish type material to paint over that gouge. They could fill it with a caulking- like material or cover it over with a -- something that is not unlike, I guess, sheetrock, to say the least.
At this point, they're going forward with the possibility of repairs while during further analysis. They'll make a decision by Wednesday -- Lou.
DOBBS: Miles, thank you very much for updating us.
Miles O'Brien.
Up next here, Congressman Silvestre Reyes, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, joins me. We'll be talking about the new Bush immigration enforcement -- I said enforcement -- plan.
Stay with us.
We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Securing our borders the focus of a two day conference going on now in Texas.
Congressman Silvestre Reyes is heading that conference. He's the chair.
He's joining us tonight from El Paso. Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. SILVESTRE REYES (D), TEXAS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: What do you hope to accomplish in this conference, at which all the top intelligence and Homeland Security officials are attending?
REYES: Well, this is our fourth Border Security Conference. I started this four years ago as an effort to get our university here, who has done a lot of work on border security issues, involved with the process that DHS had set up for centers of excellence in specific areas. And border security hadn't been done, so that's what -- what started this conference.
We're focusing on the role of intelligence in securing our nation's borders.
We just had a panel presentation on the importance of diversity in the intelligence community.
We're going to have secretary Chertoff that's...
DOBBS: What does diversity in the intelligence community mean, Congressman?
REYES: ...going to address the group tomorrow.
Well, what we're trying to do is point out that there ought to be a greater outreach by the different intelligence agencies to minority communities. One of the lessons we learned after 9/11 was that we didn't understand the cultures, the languages, the customs of many communities throughout the world. So I think it's in our best interests to get the agencies to focus on recruiting and giving opportunities to minority groups.
DOBBS: Well, let me ask you, in that regard -- I mean I'm a little stunned because we're six years, almost, after September 11th. Our borders are still wide open, as you well know.
What percentage of the Border Patrol, which is charged with securing our border, is made up of Hispanic-Americans?
REYES: Well, probably about between 45 and 48 percent.
DOBBS: I mean that's pretty -- that's pretty good diversity, isn't it?
REYES: Well, you're talking about -- the Border Patrol is a -- is a law enforcement agency.
DOBBS: Right.
REYES: What I was talking about was the intelligence community.
DOBBS: Right.
Well, the idea -- I guess I'm sort of taken aback because I -- the president -- I've just got to turn to this because the president came out with a very strong statement, for him particularly, on the enforcement of our immigration laws and border security.
Do you feel that -- are you, first, surprised that he's taken on this approach and do you support him?
REYES: Well, absolutely. You know, as you know, Lou, I represent a border district.
DOBBS: Sure.
REYES: In fact, I had a conversation with a group of people here who are in favor of putting some kind of a barrier because they live real close to the border.
The opportunity for them to meet with Secretary Chertoff tomorrow is going to be important.
We're also going to hear from the director of National Intelligence, who will give his perspective on the role of intelligence as we roll out this enforcement program that the president is talking about. DOBBS: Well, Congressman, we hope you have a very productive -- for the sake of all of us -- a very productive conference and hope that the results are very meaningful to all of us.
Congressman Silvestre Reyes, thank you very much.
REYES: Well, thanks, Lou.
Always good to be with you.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Coming up next, Karl Rove resigns.
What does it mean?
Three of the best political minds join me next to tell us about that and a great deal more.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Let's talk politics.
From Washington, Republican strategist, former White House political director, Ed Rollins.
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Thank you.
DOBBS: Here in New York, Michael Goodwin, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist, "New York Daily News".
And Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf.
Hank, let's start with you.
Are you going to miss Karl Rove and what do you think the impact will be?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I did not send flowers...
DOBBS: (LAUGHTER).
SHEINKOPF: ...at all.
Impact -- zero to none. You know, people leave the White House all the time. This president is getting to the end of his tenure. Rove has probably got other things to do. The president will miss him a lot, for sure. But it's time to leave. And it's -- he has one less lightning bolt -- lightning rod -- for people to attack.
DOBBS: Do you concur?
MICHAEL GOODWIN, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Well, yes. I think it's -- it's clearly getting close to quitting time for everybody there now. It's turn out the lights. And I think what is interesting, though, I think that if you look at it, Karl Rove has become such a target of the Democrats in Congress. So I think that the administration benefits by his not being there. The Republican presidential candidates benefit. The Democratic Congress loses its favorite target. And the Democratic presidential candidates will lose something, too, because in six months, he'll be forgotten.
DOBBS: So the Democrats are crying as Karl Rove leaves, is that correct, Ed Rollins?
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think they are. But the critical thing here is that no one has been closer to the president for over 30 years. And I think that the president is the one that loses. And he still has a very significant battle ahead on the war. And even though Karl was not intimately involved in the war, it's a loss. You know, you can't -- you can't take away from the fact that a guy who's been there, who probably made him the president, certainly made him governor and put him in a position where he could run for president.
I'm not a big Karl Rove friend, but I just will tell you this, that the guy deserves some credit for running two presidential campaigns and winning in a midterm election in 2002 and winning.
So Democrats may be saddened that he's going. I think Republicans are relieved.
DOBBS: And the idea that Karl Rove is, at this point, defying a Congressional subpoena, what does this do to his position in that defiance?
GOODWIN: Well, I think it will be interesting to see whether he gets a lawyer and has to lawyer up, as they say, and has to tight the subpoena or whether his leaving kind of takes the steam out of the Democrats' anger.
When they come back the fall, they're going to have a lot to do. They're going to have to deal with Iraq.
And I think the question is are they going to let themselves get side-tracked on Karl Rove when I think the public really cares about Iraq?
DOBBS: Well, I want Hank Sheinkopf, Democratic strategist, in particular, to respond to this rather stunning statement from Karl Rove.
If we could please roll that for everybody at home and here to hear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL ROVE, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: I've seen a man of far- sighted courage put America on a war footing and protect us against a brutal enemy in a dangerous conflict that will shape this new century. I've seen a leader respond to an economy weakened by recession, corporate scandal and terrorist attacks by taking decisive action to strengthen the economy and create jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: All right, as I examined those statements, Hank, in point of fact, they are factual. The problem is they only reach back about three to four years and they need a little update.
What do you think?
SHEINKOPF: They are the kinds of words that a major political adviser, who has been with someone for near to three decades, would say on the way out the door. And it's a way of telling Bush that what he did and what they did together was not wasteful, when, in fact, Americans have a very different viewpoint.
DOBBS: And we're going to be back with some more differing viewpoints here among our panel.
Stay with us.
We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Back now with our panel.
Michael Goodwin, I want to turn to you on the issue of Iraq.
Seven more Americans lost their lives over the last three days. Al-Maliki has called a summit, if you will, trying to create some come cohesion around his government.
Your thoughts?
GOODWIN: Well, I think as quickly as the Iraqi government can do some reconciliation, a lot of this violence will stop. On the other hand, if it can't do the reconciliation, the violence won't stop. And a lot of people have a vested interest in keeping it going.
Our soldiers, unfortunately, are bearing the brunt of their gamesmanship. And I just think when Petraeus makes his report on September 15th, if he doesn't really have evidence of big improvement, he's not -- the president is going to lose a lot of support in Congress, from Republicans as well as Democrats, which he's already lost.
DOBBS: Yes. I was going to say, it's hard to imagine...
SHEINKOPF: Yes. Right.
DOBBS: ...that support could weaken even further.
Let's turn to Iowa.
Ed Rollins, give us your analysis of what happened out there and how important it was. ROLLINS: I mean it's a big day for conservatives. I mean the bottom line, Romney and Brownback and Huckabee, who came in second, you know, they had about 85 percent of the people voting. And people like McCain and Giuliani didn't have a couple of hundred votes between them.
So I think the reality is whether that's important long-term, the conservatives still control, very much, the primary caucus process in our party.
DOBBS: And do the liberals control it in the Democratic Party?
SHEINKOPF: In what sense?
Is Senator Clinton, regardless of the likability numbers, that Miss. -- that our respected pollster, Mr. Schneider...
DOBBS: (LAUGHTER).
SHEINKOPF: ...just came up with?
Is she still the horse to beat?
Yes, she is still the horse to beat.
And, by the way, ultimately, it will get down to the Midwest. If it's Rudy or anybody else, it still gets down to the Midwest. It gets down to Catholic men and it gets down to working people and it gets down to who can protect those jobs and who is tough enough to deal with the -- it's a combination of who is tough enough to deal with the enemy and who's going to protect the jobs.
And the Democrats have a built-in advantage on job protection. And going through the next cycle, Democrats have a built-in advantage in the presidential contest.
DOBBS: And amongst these candidates right now -- Robert Zimmerman not with us tonight to -- too boost his candidate, who is, of course, Senator Clinton.
But the idea that this thing is coming down to discussion of her likability and a breakdown between men and women...
SHEINKOPF: it's kind of insane. You know, we're in the middle of a war. We have all kinds of problems and we're talking about likability. Yes.
ROLLINS: But an important issue, though, is she has improved her numbers dramatically. And this is a case where her campaign has helped her, a person who was known by everybody. And I think -- I think that's the telling story.
She's run a good campaign so far.
GOODWIN: Well, and I think one of the reasons we're not watching is that Edwards has dropped way back now into a distant third. Obama is dropping into a more distant second.
So you really -- it's a -- it's a one-and-a-half person race now. She's so far out in front in all these national polls that -- Obama is really in dire straits. He needs to pick it up quickly or it's over.
DOBBS: And some have held that it is over for him, given that two week period in which he made...
SHEINKOPF: Yes. Right.
DOBBS: ...I don't know if you concur...
SHEINKOPF: I agree entirely. He...
ROLLINS: It's not over for us, though. We still have a -- we still have a horserace.
SHEINKOPF: You do, and that's quite a horse race. The horses aren't doing so good, but they'll be OK.
(LAUGHTER).
SHEINKOPF: A long ways to go.
DOBBS: Yes. I think some people would like to see the stables in both parties enlarged.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Hank.
SHEINKOPF: Thanks.
DOBBS: Thank you, Michael.
Appreciate it.
Ed, thank you.
ROLLINS: Thank you.
DOBBS: Enjoy our nation's capital. I know I always do.
Tonight's poll results -- 98 percent of you responding that you believe sanctuary cities should lose all federal funding until they begin to enforce U.S. immigration law.
We thank you for being with us tonight.
Please join us here tomorrow.
For all of us, thank you for watching.
Good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" begins now with John King -- John. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
