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Nancy Grace
Teacher Charged With Kidnapping 10-Year-Old Former Student for Sex
Aired August 15, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: Tonight: A teacher charged with kidnapping her 10-year-old former student for sex. Headlines tonight. Jennifer Rice, 31, admits she`s had sex with the boy before, including once in his house while the boy`s parents were sleeping. Rice already resigned from two other teaching jobs after being confronted about her personal judgment. What`s going on?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-one-year-old teacher Jennifer Rice wears shackles as she`s charged with first degree kidnapping with sexual motivation. Tacoma police say Rice was having a sexual relationship with a 10-year-old student she met while working as a replacement teacher at McKinley elementary school in Tacoma. Rice`s alleged plan to run away with the boy was foiled when his parents discovered he was missing from his bed. The boy had reportedly piled clothes under his blanket to make it appear he was asleep in the bed. Following her arrest, Rice reportedly confessed to repeated sexual encounters with the 10-year-old, including one incident in his bedroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: And tonight: A mom`s behind bars after witnesses say she beat her 10-year-old bloody in Wal-Mart, dragging the crying boy by his feet. And get this. She`s been convicted of child abuse before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The picture only tells half the story, Douglas Baca`s (ph) grandmother dragging his little body all over the Wal-Mart on Stapely (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It honestly was the worst thing I`ve ever seen. It was horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fifteen-year-old Shelby (ph), a witness, fills in the gap, what we didn`t see in this picture, the boy`s mother treating him like a punching bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mom kept punching him in the face, slapping him, pulling his hair, hitting him in the stomach. He was bleeding from the mouth and bleeding from the nose and it just kept pouring out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The grandmother`s over in the other vehicle, and she`s the one that actually I saw pick up and throw the kid on the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Hi. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. First, a teacher accused of the unthinkable, kidnapping a 10-year-old boy and bringing him to a highway rest stop for sex.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From the classroom to the courtroom, Jennifer Rice walked into unfamiliar realms, accused of kidnapping a 10-year-old boy. Court documents say Rice showed up to a former student`s house Saturday morning, drove him to a truck stop in Ellensburg.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bed had been made up to look like there was somebody still laying in it. So somewhere during the early morning hours, he disappeared from the house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the boy went willingly because he had a sexual relationship with Rice, his former teacher. Documents say Rice took him out to breakfast, took him to see a waterfall. She planned to go to Idaho but changed her mind when the boy suggested she drop him off at his uncle`s home in Puyallup and then tell his parents he walked there. Police say that`s just what Rice did. A family member then drove the boy home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m disgusted. She was a good teacher. She was nice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never would have thought.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: This is just an unbelievable case, just an unbelievable case. A 10-year-old boy, a 31-year-old teacher, married, mother of three boys, all younger than the victim, though.
For the latest, we go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter. Jane, this is just an unbelievable crime to me. What`s the latest in this?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Mike, it`s so bizarre, it`s surreal and it is so disturbing. A 10-year-old Tacoma, Washington, boy, goes to sleep at night, gets tucked in, everything`s fine. His parents wake up Saturday morning, he`s disappeared. He`s totally gone, but his bed is made up to appear as if he`s sleeping there, probably pillows tucked under the cover.
They immediately suspect this 31-year-old teacher, Jennifer Rice, who has been so friendly with their son that about a month earlier, they had warned her, Stay away, we don`t want you hanging around our son anymore.
Well, when police finally catch up with her, she allegedly admits to them that, yes, she had sex with a 10-year-old boy at a rest stop. Not to get too graphic, we`re talking about sexual intercourse, however, and oral sex that they allegedly performed on each other. She also admits to the police that she had sex with this boy several times before, four or five times before, once even sneaking into the boy`s home to have sex with him while his parents slept.
This is an absolutely outrageous case. And the kicker is, she is married with three kids of her own who are younger than the victim.
BROOKS: That is unbelievable. Apparently, the incident that occurred in the house happened on August 2. Is that correct? Jane, I think it`s August 2 where she had sex in the guy`s -- in the house with the parents there?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. This whole thing happened Friday into Saturday and Sunday, and the charges came down Monday. But the previous incidents didn`t happen that long ago. And as I mentioned, it was just about a month earlier that the parents were saying, Hey, you know, you`ve gone to the movies with our son, you`ve been communicating on line, you keep calling him. What`s going on here? This is creepy. Stay away from our son.
And what turned out -- what happened was that she went to a party at a neighbor`s house that night, so she was hanging around the house. The parents apparently were aware that she was hanging around the house, but they went to sleep. And then, voila, when they wake up the next morning, their precious 10-year-old son is gone.
BROOKS: And it sounds like she was coercing the boy. And being in the neighborhood that night, to me, that also sounds like stalking behavior. But what happened, apparently, she was booked into the Pierce County jail on August 11. Now, she was booked in on one count of second degree kidnapping. She was booked in on five counts of first degree child -- rape of a child, and four counts of first degree child molestation.
Now, she`s admitted to this. What kind of defense could she have at all? Let`s uncage the lawyers. We have Sue Moss here in New York. She`s a family law attorney and child advocate. Lauren Lake, defense attorney, and Renee Rockwell, defense attorney.
I want to go to you, Renee Rockwell. What kind of defense could she have at all, if she`s already admitted this?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mike, the first thing that a good lawyer is going to do, a good defense attorney is...
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: As far as I`m concerned, there`s no good defense attorneys. But continue.
ROCKWELL: Well, welcome to America because everybody gets a fair trial. The statement, Mike, has got to go out. She`s going to have to have an attorney prove that it wasn`t voluntarily given, that she didn`t waive her rights, she didn`t know what she was doing, because the statement is going to seal the deal, Mike.
BROOKS: Lauren Lake, what is the maximum? If she`s found guilty, what is the maximum she`s going to do in prison on these counts?
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, my gosh, she could do multiple -- depends on if they run them consecutively or concurrently. That`s going to be up to the judge. But she`s at least facing 10, 15 years. She could really go to jail for this. This is about a rape of a child.
However, I want to expound upon what Renee said. We have to go back to the fact that we have make sure that this woman is not in any way mentally ill, that she doesn`t have a mental defect...
BROOKS: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute now! Wait a minute! Mentally ill...
LAKE: Hey...
BROOKS: She`s been a teacher for how many years? She`s been around these kids for God knows how many years. She has...
LAKE: That does not -- that does not in any way change the fact, Mike, that there could be some type of mental illness here that could affect her thinking, her ability to maneuver around these kids...
BROOKS: So now we go back...
LAKE: ... not only pedophilia, mental illness, that...
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: ... could be a defense.
BROOKS: When in doubt, go to the mental illness defense. That`s always a cop-out for defense attorneys! Sue Moss...
LAKE: Mike, but what`s the first thing you think when you look at a woman like that?
BROOKS: Thank you. Sue Moss, what do you have to say about this? You`re a family attorney and child advocate.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: It`s like hooking up with Gary Coleman, it`s disgusting! And in this case, it`s rape. A 10-year-old child does not have the ability to consent to a sexual act in this state or any other state in America.
With regard to whether this was a mental defect or whether she`s going to claim some type of mental incapacity -- she knew what she was doing was wrong. And if she didn`t know, his parents said, Hey, stay away. We don`t want you anywhere near. But it didn`t stop her. She knew what she was doing was wrong. She did it anyway, and she`s going to serve the time.
BROOKS: Now, what do you think, Sue, about this mental defense from the defense attorneys? You know, this whole thing, Oh, she was crazy. You think that`s viable?
MOSS: Oh, she can be crazy and still be convicted. The only...
BROOKS: Thank you.
MOSS: ... question is, Did she know it was wrong at the time she did it?
BROOKS: Well, you know, she`s 31 years old. He`s 10 years old. I mean, developmentally, does this boy even know about, you know, coercion? Does he even know about sex?
I`d like to go out to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author of "Love Prescription." A 10-year-old boy, developmentally, does he even know about sex?
JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, he may know about sex right now. But here`s the thing. She may say at some point that it was a consensual relationship, and it can never be a consensual relationship with a child who is underage. So Mike, you`re absolutely correct. This kid doesn`t know anything about this, what he`s really doing. He`s being manipulated.
And as far as this issue of an insanity defense, it`s not going to work. However, what may work is looking at mitigating circumstances. If this woman, in fact, was raped or molested herself as a child, they may say that she was very much imbalanced, and therefore, she may have known what she was doing, but she had all of these other psychological issues that were going on and she was just acting them out further, as happens with people who are victims of rape, and what will probably happen with this young boy.
BROOKS: Very, very interesting.
Let`s go out to the lines. Rebecca from California, thanks for being with us. You have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do. Thank you very much. My question is, a 10-year-old boy, I feel, hasn`t even reached puberty yet. How can a 10-year-old boy even achieve the desired end result that comes from having sex? I don`t understand this. It`s sick.
BROOKS: You know, that`s a great question, Rebecca. In fact, we were talking about this earlier today. You know, when I was 10 years old, I wasn`t even thinking about sex. You know, I have a friend, 10-year-old boy, he`s worried more about, you know, the cartoon network and his games.
Jeff Gardere, can you help us answer that question?
GARDERE: Yes, absolutely. Any 10-year-old, 11-year-old, 12-year-old boy, they really are not thinking about sex. Perhaps what has happened here -- what we know has happened here is that he`s been pushed into a stage of life that he`s not ready for, and therein lies the danger that this kid now has become precocious, now is involved in sex, and this will warp him and this will hurt him emotionally.
BROOKS: Absolutely, it`s going to hurt him emotionally. You know, 10 years old! I just -- I just can`t fathom this.
I`d like to go out right now to Tacoma, Washington, to a reporter from "The Tacoma Weekly," Clare Jensen. Clare, thanks for being with us. Can you tell me, what is the community saying right now?
CLARE JENSEN, "TACOMA WEEKLY": Well, I think everybody is just in complete shock. I know that, you know, a superintendent who had previously employed her was -- said he could not believe it. He was just shocked beyond belief. And it`s just -- you know, also with Mary Kay Letourneau happening here in the same general area in the past, you know, 10 years or so, it`s just kind of unbelievable that it could happen again.
BROOKS: Now, have you heard of any other cases like this recently in your community, with the schools?
JENSEN: I haven`t heard of anything in particular about anything that would lead somebody -- or a rape of a student, especially this extreme. But you know, the one thing that does stand out is the Mary Kay Letourneau case, which is obviously very well known.
BROOKS: Right. And I mean, we`ve got Mary Kay Letourneau, Pamela Rogers in the past, Deb Lafave, Deb Gazell (ph), and the list goes on. But if you look at most of the victims, I think this is the youngest victim we have had in this whole -- in any of these kind of cases. And it`s just -- to me, it`s just disgusting, taking a boy to a rest stop. You know, OK, I`m going to take him to breakfast, then he`s going to go look at a waterfall, then they`re going to go to an amusement park, but we stop off and take a little nap and have sex at a rest stop? That`s disgusting! That is just disgusting to me. But again, she`s innocent until proven guilty, and we`ve got to say it.
Let`s go out to the phones. Holly from Maryland, thanks for being with us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Mike. I was just actually wondering, if she had problems with two other schools in other districts, don`t they do background checks before they hire her at another school to find out what the problems were?
BROOKS: That`s a great question. And what kind of due diligence do these schools have, and you know, have any background checks been done in all the other things that have happened to her?
I want to go back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter. Jane, what kind of due diligence is done there? You know, did she have any other incidents that have happened in the past?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she had quite a few incidents, but none of them concerned allegations of sexual misconduct. These problems extend back almost a decade. At one school, she quit after questions were raised about her judgment and her skills in the classroom. And the same thing happened at the school that she then went to. She resigned after questions were raised about the appropriateness of her behavior.
I`ll give you a stunning example. She had this after school class, and she allowed the kids to play "Survivor" and vote other kids off the island, essentially. And so parents became very upset and said, Wait a second. Why should you let these kids vote other kids like my son or my daughter off the island? So obviously, she`s got severe, severe problems with judgment and boundaries.
And you know, the interesting thing, Mike, is that some parents said, you know, she was really nice. And that is a hallmark of a lot of these predators, is that they are so nice. If a teacher is being to good to be true, watch out because they`re doing so much for you, they`re crossing all these boundaries.
BROOKS: Well, we heard from some parents today. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m disgusted. She was a good teacher. She was nice. You know, she would -- you know, if I had any questions, I could call at any time, you know, and talk with her. I could, you know, pop into her class any time I wanted. It was, you know -- I never would have thought.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: And see, that`s just it, would have never thought. A seemingly normal teacher, but apparently, she does have some issues making the right decisions. She`s 31 years old, though!
We`re joined by a very, very special guest tonight from West Tampa, Florida, Owen Lafave. Many of you will remember Owen. He`s the ex-husband of Debra Lafave and author of "Gorgeous Disaster." Owen, thanks for being with us.
OWEN LAFAVE, EX-HUSBAND OF DEBRA LAFAVE: Thanks for having me.
BROOKS: You know, we hear too much about this. We -- you know, we have you on too much about this. It`s so much -- it`s such a shame. But let me ask you this, Owen. Do you think there`s a double standard when it comes to male and female? Now, I think if this was a male teacher and a 10-year-old girl, they`d be trying to burn the school down. You`d have protesters out there. What do you think, Owen?
LAFAVE: Oh, I think you`re absolutely right. I mean, there`s a huge double standard here. And it`s just laden (ph) across the Internet, if you go to blogs, if you hear people talk, you know, if it`s a female that`s a victim, I mean, everyone are up in arms.
I think what`s different about this situation is a lot of people are on the fence when it comes to the boy victim. However, in this case, the boy is 10 years old. It`s absolutely sick. There should be no doubt in anybody`s mind that this boy is a victim. She`s a rapist, she`s a pedophile, and she needs to go to jail.
BROOKS: I totally agree with you. And she needs to be on a sexual offenders registry after all this is done, again, if she`s found guilty.
I want to go back out to Clare Jensen, reporter for "Tacoma Weekly." You know, we heard from one of the parents there. But you know, what is the school district saying?
JENSEN: Well, the school district isn`t saying much in the way of, you know, the situation. They`re kind of just being -- I was -- actually asked them how they -- what their hiring procedure is, and you know, if they have any sort of procedures. And they said that they do but they couldn`t give me any details, while the (INAUDIBLE) superintendent said he`d never received any calls from the Tacoma school district asking for a reference for Rice or anything like that before she was hired, so...
BROOKS: Now, was her husband with her at court at the initial appearance? Is he standing by her side?
JENSEN: As far as I know, she -- I don`t know about that. I know that there were two men in the courtroom, but they declined to be interviewed.
BROOKS: Well, you know, if I was involved with something like this, I would probably decline to be interviewed myself. Now, what are the police out there saying? What are they saying about this whole thing?
JENSEN: Well, they -- you know, they`re just giving the facts of the case. Everybody, like I said, is just in disbelief. And you know, it`s just a whole shocking thing for the community.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tacoma police say Rice was having a sexual relationship with a 10-year-old student she met while working as a replacement teacher. She and the boy made plans to run away together over the weekend. According to charging documents, the two made it as far as Ellensburg, then turned around after Rice was contacted by police and warned that an Amber Alert had been issued targeting her car. Prosecutors say additional charges, including child rape and molestation, are expected in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us. Another teacher, oh, just abuses the trust of her own students, of an ex-student of hers, a 10-year-old! A 10-year-old student! She takes him to have breakfast, kidnaps him, or allegedly kidnaps him -- that`s what they`re saying right now -- takes him to go to a waterfall, takes him to breakfast, go to a waterfall. They were going to go to an amusement park, but they decide -- she decides to stop off at a rest stop and have sex with this young boy.
And it`s just -- it`s just disgusting. It goes on. She`s described - - and this is from the police report here -- she`s described as having intercourse, performing oral sex on each other, and then she reported that she and the victim had sexual intercourse previously a total of four or five occasions. And on August 2, she had sexual intercourse in his bedroom while his parents slept a few feet away. To me, this is unbelievable.
You know, the attorneys, Lauren Lake, are saying, Oh, you know what? Maybe there`s a mental deficiency here. Lauren Lake, what if this were a man? They would bury him under the jailhouse.
LAKE: Mike, and I`m not going to disagree with you. There is a double standard here. And let`s be honest, the first thing we have to understand in this country is you have a right to defense, and your defense attorney has to defend you vigorously, meaning if there needs to be mental evaluations done, then that`s just what it`s going to be.
Now, as for it being a double standard, I do agree with you. We`re more likely when we look at a man to say, You know what? He`s a pedophile, go to jail, go directly to jail, and you definitely ain`t getting $200. But for a woman, we tend to sit back and go, Wow, because women are usually nurturers. We usually don`t associate women with this type of act.
However, regardless of the fact if there`s a double standard or not, she deserves a fair trial, and she`s going to get one.
BROOKS: Yes, well, we`ll see about that. Renee Rockwell, let me ask you this. With her the night that it happened, that she kidnapped him, is there stalking? Could there be more charges coming forward in this?
ROCKWELL: It does seem like that she was hanging around and letting him jump in the car. But can we go back to what you were talking about, the double standard, men/women? There`s also concern with the pretty woman. They get a better crack at it, too. You know that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bed had been made up to look like there was somebody still laying in it. So somewhere during the early morning hours, he disappeared from the house. The family was aware that the teacher and the boy had established a friendship, although they were not for it. They asked that she not come around anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Well, looks like they had developed a friendship. Looks like a little bit closer than a friendship, a little bit closer than any parent -- or any teacher and student should ever get.
Let`s go out to the lines. Terry from West Virginia, thanks for being with us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Mike. How are you?
BROOKS: Good, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree with the lady with the background check. I say, regardless, men or women teachers should randomly have that done. But my question was, is if the parents were upset about her stalking him and stuff, did they ever get a restraining order? And if they did, would he be in violation of that?
BROOKS: That`s a great question. Let`s go out to Clare Jensen, reporter for "The Tacoma Weekly" in Tacoma, Washington. Was there ever any restraining order or anything that she got -- the parents got against her?
JENSEN: As far as court documents show, there weren`t any legal restraints put on their relationship. But you know, about a month ago, the father did request Rice refrain from coming into their house.
BROOKS: Well, apparently, that -- you know, apparently, she used to come over and watch movies with the boy. Now, that`s unknown if he was there or not.
When we come back: A mother beats her son in the face and head in the local Wal-Mart before dragging him out by his feet. And guess what? We`ve got 911 tape.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: 911, what`s your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, yes, we`re here at Wal-Mart, and there`s this lady beating this little boy and taking him, and he keeps on crying, trying to get away from her, and he`s telling her, "I want to go with my mom," and she grabs him. And I asked her, "Is that your son?" And she said, "Yes, it is." And I told the Wal-Mart authorities here, and they said they can`t do anything about it. What if he`s being kidnapped?
DISPATCHER: What`s the address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re at the Wal-Mart off of Baseline and Stapley.
DISPATCHER: Baseline and Stapley?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am, she`s leaving right now, and nobody`s helping, and nobody`s doing anything about it.
DISPATCHER: Hold on a second. Any weapons or injuries?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I`m calling from the payphone because nobody can do anything about it.
DISPATCHER: OK, hold on just a second.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just really worried about that little boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks sitting in for Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us. Another 10-year-old boy, this time beaten bloody in the Wal-Mart by his mother. For the latest, we go to out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter.
Jane, what`s going on with this case?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It`s another horrifying case, Mike, involving yet again a 10-year-old boy and the women in his life. This one in Mesa, Arizona. It starts out innocuously enough. They`re at a Wal-Mart. The 10-year-old boy, his mom, and her mother, so this boy`s grandmother. All hell breaks loose when, according to a lot of people standing around, the mom allegedly starts wailing on this kid, punching him with a closed fist in the face, on the head, in the back. He gets a bloody nose. He`s bleeding. He`s terrified. He falls down. She drags him allegedly by the feet.
People are in an uproar. They`re taking pictures with their cell phone cameras. They`re calling 911. They`re saying, "Do something," as you just heard. Well, police ultimately arrest this woman. She is in jail tonight on suspicion of child abuse. And lo and behold, they find she has a history of child abuse, that she did a year in jail because in 2003 her 3-month-old son died after her then-boyfriend shook him to death.
But the drama and the horror doesn`t end there. It turns out that that ex-boyfriend, who wasn`t initially charged with the little baby`s death, then moved in with another woman and killed her son, her 11-month- old son, by wrapping him in a blanket and suffocating him.
BROOKS: Wait a minute. The mother of the year that we see here in Wal-Mart, you`re telling me that there was a guy that actually killed another one of her children?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, there was a guy who killed another one of her children, by shaking to death. He is in jail right now doing two life terms because, after that, because she didn`t cooperate with authorities, he wasn`t initially charged, so he moves in with another woman and her son ends up dead, so two dead boys. He`s in prison for life. She did a year.
And here`s the worst part about it, Mike, is that at the time of this 2003 death, this little boy who was in the Wal-Mart incident was about 5 years old, and they found bruises on his body. And the woman admitted to police that she slapped him with an open hand, and they took this child away and put him in foster care. And sometime between 2003 and today, he was returned to his mom, and look at what happened.
BROOKS: Mother of the year. Let`s take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: 911 emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a couple of ladies and a small child, and the child`s bleeding from the nose in front of Wal-Mart over on Val Vista and Stapley and Baseline, sorry. And they`re walking out to the vehicles, the Wal-Mart associate following him.
DISPATCHER: You think like someone was witnessing the woman hitting the child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I mean, while they`re standing in line, it was just absolutely...
DISPATCHER: OK, and the child was...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child is not being cooperative, but they`re...
DISPATCHER: (INAUDIBLE) it`s not...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like they`re getting into a green -- looks like a Suburban, light green Suburban with a white top.
DISPATCHER: Light green Suburban?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With a white top.
DISPATCHER: In what direction?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, they`re still in the parking lot. Oh, the kid ran off.
DISPATCHER: OK. And the child ran off where?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s running away.
DISPATCHER: How old is he?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He looks about 12 years old.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: This poor 10-year-old boy, beaten bloody by his mother of the year, and inside and outside a Wal-Mart. We`re listening to these 911 calls. I`m just glad that some citizens got involved, because many times we hear cases like this when the citizens, "Oh, I don`t want to get involved. I don`t want to snitch on anybody." It seems to be the whole culture nowadays. We don`t want to snitch on anybody. But thank God the Mesa police did their job.
Right now from Phoenix, I`d like to go out to Lieutenant Lance Rogers, he`s director of the Center Against Family Violence with the Mesa Police Department. Lieutenant, thanks for being with us.
LT. LANCE ROGERS, MESA POLICE DEPARTMENT: Thank you.
BROOKS: Can you tell me a little bit about this woman`s history? Has child protective services ever taken any of her children away? Well, I guess she only has one now, because she had a boyfriend who killed one of her other children.
ROGERS: Well, the child protective services got involved with her at several points in her life. And as far as their case history on that, that is probably going to have to come from child protective services themselves. We don`t necessarily have that access to those kind of records.
BROOKS: Now, when the police first arrived there, what did the witnesses tell them? And how many witnesses were there to this?
ROGERS: Well, we have four 911 calls that came in from the customers from inside the Wal-Mart. And they, as you heard from the recordings, they were witnessing the assault going on inside the store, inside and also outside of the store.
BROOKS: It`s incredible to me. Now, when you talk to the grandmother, apparently the grandmother was there also. And did she tell the truth?
ROGERS: Tell the truth, as far as what occurred?
BROOKS: Exactly.
ROGERS: She did indicate in her statement that she was trying to take control of the boy, who was having some anger issues, and they were trying to get control of him. And so as far as she actually hitting the child, the grandmother, we don`t have any witnesses that show her hitting the child.
BROOKS: Right, but initially, I was hearing that, when police first asked her, "Oh, was your daughter, the defendant, was she hitting the boy?" She goes, "Well, no," and then finally they said, "Well, are you sure about that?" Then she says, "Well, he hit him in the back of the head."
ROGERS: Right, right, that would obviously indicate hitting.
BROOKS: Yes.
ROGERS: But there was a struggle going on, and the witnesses all saw this. The boy was fighting from the very beginning, and he was having some issues. And they said, you know, you`re going to have to straighten up, and then things got out of hand.
BROOKS: Grandmother and mother of the year. Let`s go out to the lines. Judy from West Virginia, thanks for calling.
CALLER: Hey, Mike, how are you doing? I wanted to weigh in on this. It`s been my experience that, between 911 calls -- and, you know, they take a half an hour, so you don`t get a very immediate response. And, number two, child protective services has never worked. We`re going to have to come up with something better, and I wondered if maybe you had some ideas about that.
BROOKS: Well, you know, in this particular case we just heard from Lieutenant Lance Rogers. He`s with the Center against Family Violence there with the Mesa Police Department, and apparently child protective services, you know, had some contact with her before, but you`re right. We hear in a lot of cases, Judy, that a lot of times, child protective services is basically ineffective.
But thank you for that. You`re right on target with that. And we`ve talked about that. We see many, many cases where we see child protective services is ineffective until somebody gets involved. And many times it`s a neighbor. This time, it was some concerned citizens who decided to call 911 and do the right thing. Let`s take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just couldn`t stand by and just watch what`s happened.
DISPATCHER: No, absolutely not. I`m glad you called.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unbelievable.
DISPATCHER: OK, are you (INAUDIBLE) from the officer, also?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, if you need my information, I don`t mind if you need my help for testifying reasons or whatever.
DISPATCHER: Yes, they would most likely like to call you later.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
DISPATCHER: And did you witness her hitting him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, grabbed him, threw him on the floor in line. OK, he`s there, and the grandmother`s over in this other vehicle, and she`s the one that actually I saw pick up and throw the kid on the ground. So one of these units should come over here to the green and talk to this lady over here, because she`s the one that I actually saw throw him on the ground.
DISPATCHER: She`s still in the...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s still over here in the green vehicle, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: This poor 10-year-old boy, getting beaten bloody in the parking lot. Sue Moss, weigh in on this. You`re a family law attorney and child advocate. This is unbelievable to me.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: My goodness, and this is not the first time it`s happened. You would think, if your 3-month-old boy was killed, you would make sure that no child abuse would ever happen in your home again. This kid was bleeding from the mouth, from the nose. It`s absolutely disgraceful! She must lose custody!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The picture only tells half the story. Carlos Baca`s grandmother dragging his little body all over the Wal-Mart on Stapley. Fifteen-year-old Shelby, a witness, fills in the gap, what we didn`t see in this picture: the boy`s mother treating him like a punching bag.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks sitting in for Nancy Grace. A 10-year-old boy, treated like a punching bag, a human doormat by his mother. And his grandmother lies to try to cover up for the mother and then finally tells the truth. Another stellar family with children like this, who, in my opinion, sometimes parents like this don`t deserve children like this.
Let`s go out to the lines. Mandy from Georgia, you have a question. Thanks for being with us.
CALLER: Hi, I was just wondering, because it seems to me that, you know, people call the police and everything, but somebody should have tried to get the boy away from the woman who was his mom. Is there any way, like anybody who was just kind of standing around and watching it, could be held accountable to any degree? Could they get in trouble for not trying to help him?
BROOKS: You know, that`s a great question. In fact, we tried, the NANCY GRACE show tried to contact Wal-Mart to see what actions they took, any of the security people took, but they refused to return our call. Right now, I`d like to go out to Darrell Ankarlo, he`s host of "Ankarlo Mornings," FM News/Talk 92.3 KTAR in Phoenix.
Darrell, have you heard anything at all or any statements at all from Wal-Mart if they took any kind of action?
DARRELL ANKARLO, RADIO HOST: We did call Wal-Mart just before I came on the show, Mike, and they said that they don`t have policy about whether to intervene or not, though the people at the store said that their policy was not to intervene for liability purposes. Obviously, in the past there have been people who have been stabbed or hurt in some sort of an altercation. So that`s Wal-Mart`s perspective.
I talked to the mother of Shelby, whose 911 call you guys were playing just a few minutes ago, Mike, and she described it as predators, two predators on this 10-year-old kid, and that there was a lot of hair-pulling and a lot of beating going on. The boy is throwing a tantrum. The boy starts yelling, "She`s not my mother. She`s not my mother." He runs and hides behind the cars to get away.
And one of your callers a moment ago said, you know, cops are pretty notorious for arriving late. They had five to six squad cars on the scene within two minutes of those phone calls coming in. So they moved, they moved properly, they got the job done.
But let`s go -- you keep calling them stellar, you know, mom of the year and everything, which, by the way, I understand the sarcasm. I`ll add to it. This is psycho, man. This mother was abused as a child. This mother is abusing her child. And unless somebody steps in and intervenes with this 10-year-old boy, he`s going to be in the system. Give him another five, ten years, and he`s going to do something that we`re all going to be reporting on, on my show and on your TV show. We`ve got to do something about this.
BROOKS: No, and I totally agree with you. And something does have to be done. And I`d like to go back out to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychology and author of "Love Prescription." Doctor, do you usually see parents who abuse come from an abusive family themselves?
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, your previous guest is absolutely correct. Many of the people who abuse come from abusive families. A lot of them have been shown how to abuse by being around their abusive parents. But much more what we see, Mike, is that they have this anger inside of them from being abused, and they have to act it out.
And if there isn`t an intervention, then they will definitely act out, and we may see this boy act out. But thank God -- I say thank God this happened, because now this mother`s been found out. We know her history, and there will be an intervention in this family, as there should have been.
BROOKS: I`d like to go back out to Lieutenant Lance Rogers, director of the Center against Family Violence with the Mesa Police Department. Lieutenant, we heard from Darrell Ankarlo that one of the person he talked to said there were two predators, called them two predators. Now, is there an investigation to see what role the grandmother played in this, to see if she could be also charged?
ROGERS: Yes, detectives have actually followed up on that. And from the witnesses that were there, from the video that we were able to observe from the store, there wasn`t anything that would indicate that she did anything other than hold the child and try and grab the child out and get him out of the store.
BROOKS: That`s very interesting. Right now, I want to go back out to our defense attorneys, Lauren Lake here in New York, and out of Atlanta, Renee Rockwell.
OK, Renee, defend this one. She was Mirandized, she gave a statement and said, "Yes, she hit him a couple times," but then she doesn`t remember exactly what happened. Defend this woman now.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Now, Mike, how are you going to do that when it was all on tape, besides if you could take the witnesses way? But let me make a point. I have never seen this, and I`ve been a lawyer for 27 years. This woman is on probation, right now, for lifetime. She has lifetime probation for the other incident that involved her 3-month-old dying.
So it`s not going to take much for some judge just to throw her away for life because of what she did. Then maybe -- and I know I`m not sounding like a defense attorney now -- then maybe somebody can come in and get this child the help that he needs. I don`t see her winning or getting out of this at all, Mike.
BROOKS: Now, Lauren Lake, you know, we just heard from Renee said. Could you defend this woman? And I`ve never -- and I`ve never heard -- I was in law enforcement for 26 years -- never heard of probation for life.
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean this woman`s already in trouble, and this is one of those moments where, as a defense attorney, you look like Satan`s sidekick, as I would say, because you`re going to have to defend this woman, because she`s entitled to a defense under our Constitution.
However, like Renee already pointed out, Mike, it`s all on tape. They`re snapping pictures. We`ve got eyewitnesses. And all I can say is, is that you`ve got to get the good from all of this negative and just say that this was this woman`s moment to be found out, to be discovered, for this child to be rescued. And in defending her, we know that we are taking part of our criminal justice process, but also, in the end, helping this child find a safe place. That`s all you can do.
BROOKS: You`re right. And let me just read -- there was another statement that came out from the police today, it said another witness observed Tatum slap the boy across the face, causing his nose to bleed. A third witness reported that Tatum punched the boy with a closed fist several times, including in the stomach, and carried the boy by the neck and groin area. Unbelievable to me.
Sheba from Illinois, thanks for joining us. You have a question?
CALLER: Yes, Mike. I know the child was probably sent to the E.R. for evaluation after all this, but I`m wondering if they found any bruises on his body that would be indicative of a previous beating or a previous abuse.
BROOKS: You know, that`s a great question. And, again, something, again, caring for the child after this happened. Let`s go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter. Jane, was this boy taken to the hospital? And were there any other signs of abuse?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what I could tell you, Mike, is that right now, this boy is staying with relatives. So, obviously, if there were injury, they were not severe enough to have him hospitalized for any length of time.
But his abuse goes way back. Let`s go back to 2003, again, when that crisis erupted, that child was dead, they checked this little boy. He was 5-year-old at the time. He had bruises all over his body. He should never have gone back to this mother. He should never have been in that Wal-Mart with mom and grandma.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The picture only tells half the story. Carlos Baca`s grandmother dragging his little body all over the Wal-Mart on Stapley. Fifteen-year-old Shelby, a witness, fills in the gap, what we didn`t see in this picture: the boy`s mother treating him like a punching bag.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. I`d like to go right out to Sue Moss. Sue, let me ask you. You know, number one, where do you draw the line between punishment and child abuse? And, secondly, if she does this to this little boy in public, what do you think happens at home?
MOSS: She had no idea where to draw the line, even when that line was drawn with the blood of her 10-year-old`s nose and mouth. It is disgusting what`s happened, but if this is what she does in public, one could only imagine what she does in private. There are reports that she grabbed the groin. That frightens me most, because what she does in public that mimics that type of behavior is even more scary.
BROOKS: Jeff, I want to go back to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author of "Love Prescription," Doctor, does this boy stand a chance, period?
GARDERE: Well, now that this has been found out, now that we know about her history, there will be an intervention. But, Mike, very quickly, a possible defense for this woman, again, mitigating circumstances, that she was probably abused as a child and, secondly, diminished capacity. She does not look to be that intelligent. I would have her tested and find out whether she has some sort of borderline retardation. But the bottom line is, she`s a victim, but this child is a greater victim, and there are many more out there.
BROOKS: And I just hope that the family members that she`s -- that the little boy is now is at, I hope that they are doing the right thing.
But tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Specialist Roberto Causor, Jr., just 21 years old, San Jose, California, killed Iraq. Known as "Junior," Causor grew up playing with toy guns and worked to graduate early from high school so he could join the Army. Proud to defend his country, Causor leaves behind a loving girlfriend, O`Lydia, who`s expecting the couple`s son in December. Parents Roberto Sr. and Maria, sisters, Ruby, Mitzy Yareli and Wendy. Army Specialist Roberto Causor, Jr., American hero.
Thank you to all our guests. Our biggest thank you for being with us and inviting us into your home. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, stay safe.
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