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Nancy Grace
Co-Defendants Say Vick Helped Kill Dogs
Aired August 17, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: Tonight: Does NFL superstar Michael Vick have blood on his hands? Co-defendants in the dog fighting ring at Bad Newz Kennels claim Vick himself actually helped execute dogs by hanging and drowning. According to one of his defense attorneys, there is no plea deal yet for Michael Vick. However, three of his co-defendants have already rolled over, and they are singing like canaries.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three co-defendants down, and now it`s time for a decision for Michael Vick. No word yet whether the NFL quarterback will accept a plea deal on federal dog fighting charges. Two more of his co- defendants pleaded guilty in Richmond, Virginia, today. A third had accepted a plea deal earlier. According to court documents, Vick`s alleged partners say the Falcons star helped execute dogs that didn`t fight well. Reportedly, Vick`s attorneys have been talking with prosecutors about a plea deal that would include a year in prison. If he turns it down, Vick might face more serious charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: And tonight: Happily married for 17 years, but suddenly, Stanley Reimer takes his wife, Criste, to the balcony of their fourth floor apartment, kisses her, then hurls her to her death below. Motive? Mounting medical bills. Come on!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Kansas City man accused of throwing his sick wife from the fourth floor balcony is now facing a murder charge. Police say 51-year-old Stanley Reimer killed his wife because he couldn`t afford her medical bills. Forty-seven-year-old Criste Reimer was being treated for uterine cancer and neurological problems. She weighed 75 pounds. On Tuesday, officials found her dead outside her apartment building. Her sister said she was doing well and had been living with their mother until just last month, when her husband took her away. They say she told her family Monday she wanted to move back in with her mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. First tonight, the Bad Newz Kennel`s allegedly responsible for hanging, shooting and even electrocuting dogs, and co-defendants say Michael Vick`s a dog killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A big day in the dog fighting scandal involving Michael Vick, today two co-defendants pleading guilty in federal court. And this is a real bombshell. In those plea agreements, these two men say they were Vick`s partners in the dog fighting business. They say Vick helped kill dogs that weren`t tough enough in the ring and that Vick was the money man for the operation. A third co-defendant had already pleaded guilty.
That leaves the Atlanta Falcons star quarterback under intense pressure now to decide whether to take a plea deal himself, a deal that might land him in jail for a year. If he does not take that, sources saying that he will face much tougher charges of racketeering come Monday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we look at this case, it`s almost -- you know, I`m not condoning what Michael Vick did, but it`s kind of sad because if he is completely innocent, what the federal prosecutors in this case have done is they`ve painted him into a corner where it`s either, You`re going to plead guilty, or we`re going to try to get you under the RICO statute, triple the cost, triple the fines. And you know, We find you guilty at trial, you`re looking at 10 to 20 years of prison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: And if they do get him on the RICO charge, that could mean some serious jail time. But what`s going on right now in this case? What`s the latest?
For the latest, we go out to Sandra Golden, sports talk radio host of AM 790, "The Zone`s" "Mayhem in the AM" in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for being with us, Sandra. What`s the latest?
SANDRA GOLDEN, SPORTS TALK RADIO HOST, 790 AM "THE ZONE": Well, the very latest (INAUDIBLE) a hurry-up-and-wait game. We expected a plea deal sometime this morning at 9:00 AM. It was reported that was the deadline. It turned out to be an erroneous report. Then I heard 5:00 PM tonight. Well, in fact, as soon as 10 minutes ago, I hear that Vick is still -- excuse me -- Vick`s attorneys are still dealing with the prosecutors, trying to get a plea deal done. The point of contention is this 12 to 18 months of prison time, and the prosecutors are not budging.
BROOKS: Now, the judge in this is Henry Hudson. He`s known for giving sometimes the maximum. And even if a plea deal is offered, he can also say, No, we`re not taking a plea deal. Isn`t that right?
GOLDEN: That`s absolutely right. And Mike, what came out later today was the state of Virginia, Poindexter, you know, from Suri County -- they are now bringing up charges of the dog fighting, and I understand this can be up to five years. And this is in addition to what the feds are doing. So that came out about 4:00 o`clock this afternoon.
BROOKS: Well, you know, I`m glad to see that Mr. Poindexter in Suri County is finally doing the right thing. I think the grand jury comes back in a couple weeks. They`ll hear this. But how many other states are involved in this, Sandra, where there could possibly be other charges?
GOLDEN: Well, we`ve heard, like you and I have discussed, it could be up to eight states going back and forth. So I think the most disturbing thing today, Mike, is what you`re referring to, is when Quanis Phillips and Purnell Peace plead guilty this morning, as expected, they each had to sign -- one is a 10-page, one a 12-page -- summary of facts. And they`re pretty much exactly the same read.
And I turned my attention to item number 46. This is when Vick, Phillips and Peace are all named in the killings of dogs. ESPN then reported the horrific details of that Michael, Peace and Purnell -- they all hanged eight dogs...
BROOKS: Oh!
GOLDEN: ... that were not performing. No, no, no! It gets worse, Mr. Brooks. The eight did not all die. Five of them remained alive, struggling as they`re hanging. So one by one, they took a bucket and drowned them in a bucket of water. Horrific. Disgusting. I can`t even stomach this case much longer.
BROOKS: I -- I just don`t -- I -- I can`t -- I can`t stomach this whole thing. To me, it`s unbelievable. Unbelievable!
So tell me again, how many dogs do they think that Michael Vick was -- got his hands bloody on, Sandra?
GOLDEN: I`m looking at it. Eight dogs. And this was -- you remember three weeks ago, when Tony Taylor signed his plea agreement, he did not name Vick. This is the first time we`ve seen Vick`s name actually being charged with killing of the dogs. Eight dogs that did not perform well in this testing -- what they would have these, you know, these warm-up fights, and if they didn`t think the dog was testing well, they would just put him down to keep their breeds to this certain level of performance. So when the eight didn`t -- you know, they hanged these eight, and then you hear details of, Well, they didn`t die right away, then the drownings begin -- I can`t -- it`s disgusting!
BROOKS: This, to me -- you know, we`ve heard this all along, but we never heard that Michael Vick was directly involved in it. We heard, yes, OK, he`s bankrolling everything. He`s the money man. In fact, we hear also in these indictments that, basically, he didn`t take any money from the winnings. It was all the other ones. It was, you know, Phillips and Peace that were taking the money. I guess Michael didn`t need the money, so he just wanted to come there for the fun and the killing. That`s all he wanted to be there for.
Let`s go out to the phones. Carlos from West Virginia, thanks for being with us. You got a question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Mike. Yes. I was just wondering, how can they justify only giving him a year on this plea deal, when I`ve heard on ESPN, like, five minutes ago, that they said this was involved -- I mean, he was involved as early as -- as late as this year, and it goes all the way back to Virginia Tech days.
BROOKS: That`s a great question. Let`s uncage the lawyers. Sue Moss, family attorney and child advocate out of New York. Also out of New York, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, and another New Yorker, Midwin Charles, defense attorney.
What`s up with the time?
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: Tell me, Alex.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, you know, I -- you know, the fellow is charged with some very serious offenses, but I don`t trust the case that has been presented to him by the government...
BROOKS: Whoa, whoa, whoa!
SANCHEZ: ... because the charges against him rely on three fellows, each of whom have some very serious and disturbing characteristics about their own background, have been involved in torturing dogs, have been involved in gambling and forcing dogs to fight with each other. Why should these fellows be believed under any circumstances? So it would seem to me the case against Vick is not quite as strong as you would have the public believe, Mike, I`m sorry to say.
BROOKS: Alex, you know, I have (ph) to agree with you. Sue Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: This guy is like Monty Hall, and he`s playing "Let`s Make a Deal." But he`s not going to like what`s behind curtain number three because what`s waiting for him is a new indictment that`s probably going to involve RICO charges, tax evasion charges. He`s also looking at state charges. That`s a lot of real time and a lot more than that 18 months or one year that he might get in a plea deal.
BROOKS: Now, what`s RICO? That stands for Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organization, AKA Bad Newz Kennels. How do you defend against that, Alex?
SANCHEZ: Well, listen, you know something? That is a very draconian law. And the thing about RICO...
BROOKS: Oh, come on!
SANCHEZ: The thing about RICO is, all you need is a small amount of evidence for one person to be roped into some type of criminal organization, and the government can assume that you`re part of this massive organization, and they come and pound on you like a hammer. So the thing is, they`re holding this RICO thing over Michael Vick like a sword.
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: You know what ? They ought to be holding it over his head as a sword!
SANCHEZ: If he did it.
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: Hey...
SANCHEZ: But there`s no information, as far as I`m concerned, that he did commit this offense because you`re relying on three questionable people, all who were very tough guys inside that dog ring, but once they faced a formidable opponent like the government, they ran away like a dog with the tail between his legs.
(CROSSTALK)
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s exactly right. That`s exactly right. That`s exactly right. I mean, I really need to jump in here. I mean, here you are, you have the government relying on three people who are far less from being model citizens to make their case against Michael Vick. And most importantly, they are painting him into a corner and forcing him to arguably take this plea because he`s looking at state charges, he`s looking at RICO charges. And I sincerely hope that, you know, these prosecutors don`t rise to the level of prosecutorial misconduct which we saw in the Duke rape case here.
BROOKS: Oh! You know what? I -- have you looked at the plea agreement? OK.
CHARLES: I`ve read it. I`ve read it. I`ve read it. And what`s interesting is...
BROOKS: Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. It says defendant`s cooperation, OK? I`m reading right from it. And it says, "Defendant agrees to fully cooperate -- fully and truthfully- with the United States government and provide all information known to the defendant regarding any criminal activity as requested by the government in regard that," and it goes down A, B and C.
Now, on letter D, it says, "The defendant agrees that upon request by the United States, the defendant will voluntarily submit to polygraph examinations to be conducted by a polygraph examiner of the United States` choice."
So you think they`re going to lie on a polygraph?
CHARLES: Look, Mike, whenever you have co-defendants who are turning evidence against another defendant, everyone always has to look at the character of those defendants, what sort of...
BROOKS: Sure, you try to impeach them, but...
CHARLES: No, no, no. But what kind of things they have to lose or what they stand to gain by turning against the other defendant. And here we`re talking about three people who have -- I mean, what do they have going for themselves? They have absolutely nothing going for themselves. They`ve been in and out of the legal system. In fact, when one of them pled guilty this morning, he was taken away in shackles because he violated probation on another case.
BROOKS: Yes, Mr. Phillips, also known as "Q," and the Q doesn`t stand for being too quick. You know, come on! Put the pipe down before you get your drug test in court, my man!
Sue Moss, what do you think about this? I think they`re totally off base.
MOSS: Well, don`t forget the fact that in addition to the four people who are now saying that Vick is involved, there`s also evidence, the fact that a substantial number of dead dogs were found on his very own property, the rape stand was found on his property, the blood-stained walls that was used to -- allegedly to train these dogs on his property. Trace the money trail. I bet it`s going to lead back to Vick. So you`re going to have a lot of substantial evidence in addition to this testimony.
BROOKS: Sandra Golden, you know -- you know, we`re talking about the other three, but did Michael Vick -- did he or did he not lie to the NFL commissioner, Roger Goodell, at the draft, when Goodell asked him directly if he was involved in any of this and knew what was going on at the house?
GOLDEN: Yes, you`re absolutely right. He was asked during the NFL draft, Did you have anything to do with this? And he said, I absolutely have nothing to do with this. Roger Goodell, the commissioner or the NFL, was quoted yesterday saying, Michael Vick lied to me.
BROOKS: There you go. So we have another stellar performer as the co-defendant. So, you know, if...
GOLDEN: Mike, don`t forget, four cooperating witnesses that are not named, that is in the indictment, as well. So it`s seven total.
BROOKS: Well, you know, that`s a great -- that`s another great point. We remember the name Devon Bode (ph). That`s Michael Vick`s cousin. He`s the one that got the ball rolling on this whole thing in the first place by his drug arrest in Hampton (ph), Virginia. It brought law enforcement to this house, doing a search warrant as a follow-up to the investigation, and that`s when they discovered all this. We haven`t heard his name anywhere, have we?. What do you think most likely, Alex Sanchez? You think he`s one of the CWs?
SANCHEZ: You know -- you know what doesn`t make any sense about this case, Mike? Mike Vick is a very wealthy individual. He doesn`t have time to be engaged in dog fighting activities. He`s trying to promote his career, work with the team, try to achieve some success. These guys are all hangers-on. They all associate with him. Why? Because he`s got money and he`s got fame. He probably...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: ... Go ahead, go use my property.
BROOKS: Who bought the house?
SANCHEZ: Go use my house.
BROOKS: Who bought the house?
SANCHEZ: Go use my facilities, do whatever you want there. And they go engage in this activity, and next thing you know, Michael Vick is being drawn into it.
BROOKS: But have you -- have you read all this? They said the reason they bought the property was specifically for Bad Newz Kennels.
SANCHEZ: Well, that`s what they say. But what does -- Vick has not admitted to that. And they could say anything at this point. Don`t just assume that Vick is lying because these low-lives are coming to court and making deals with the government.
BROOKS: Let`s look at the evidence. OK, we had Mr. Tony Taylor, "T," the first one, OK? He`s the first one to roll over on Mike Vick. So you don`t think that they (INAUDIBLE) the same agreement, OK, polygraph and everything else, and debriefings. So as they do the debriefings, then they do the polygraph test, and then they continue the investigation, and they`re just baking a cake in this particular case.
SANCHEZ: And you know why? You know what, Mike? The other question that comes with this, Why is this case even being prosecuted in federal court? I`ve represented many people charged with dog fighting. My office is located in the Bronx. There`s a lot of dog fighting activity over there. Most of those cases are prosecuted in the local criminal courts with basically a slap on the wrist.
BROOKS: I`ll tell you why.
SANCHEZ: Because Michael Vick is well-known...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: ... all of a sudden...
BROOKS: Oh, you know...
SANCHEZ: ... it`s being prosecuted in federal court and they`re threatening him with RICO?
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: Well, what`s one of the predicates of RICO here, Alex? Is it not gambling?
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: Gambling, OK? Is that one of the predicates?
SANCHEZ: The government does not take RICO and prosecute all cases. Maybe organized crime. Michael Vick is not La Cosa Nostra.
BROOKS: Well, what is Bad Newz Kennels? Is Bad Newz Kennels not organized crime?
SANCHEZ: It may be, but on a very small scale...
BROOKS: Oh, there you go! / (CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: ... very small scale, Mike.
BROOKS: Let`s go out to the phones.
SANCHEZ: And it should be prosecuted by the state.
BROOKS: No, it`s not small scale. When all this -- when everything comes to the surface, you`re going to find out, I think, from what I`ve been reading and what I`ve been talking to my sources, that this is not just a small-time operation. And I wouldn`t be surprised to see some other things come along with it.
Jeremy from Virginia, thanks for joining us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
BROOKS: Do you have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. My main question is, all this evidence built up against him, why would they even offer him a plea agreement?
BROOKS: That`s a great question. Sue Moss, why would they even offer him a plea agreement? You know -- you know, they`ve got all this evidence. Hey, let`s go to trial. If you don`t make up your mind, no problem, we`re going to trial.
MOSS: Well, you want to offer a plea agreement because if there`s any way we can save the government money from an expensive long trial, with appeals to boot, you certainly want to do that. And if he -- we can get this guy to come forward and say, Look, this is what I did, this is wrong, maybe convince other people not to do the same thing.
BROOKS: Absolutely. Let`s go back out to the phones. Todd from Texas. Thanks for being with us, Todd.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Mike. I was just wondering, if he does accept this plea, which I think is so very lenient, how much actual time would he do on the year?
BROOKS: Midwin Charles, defense attorney out of New York, how much time is he looking at if he takes this? And also, tell us how much time is he looking at if he doesn`t, decides not to take the plea agreement and he`s charged with RICO, and how much time there?
CHARLES: Well, if he`s charged with RICO charges, he could be looking at as much as to 20 years...
BROOKS: Wow.
CHARLES: ... on top of the 6 years for the interstate transport of the dogs, so 26 years. And I don`t know if they`re going to run concurrent or consecutive. That`s always something that you have to factor in. But if he takes the plea, he could be looking at anywhere from 12 to 18 months, and he most likely will serve the whole thing.
BROOKS: Now, Alex Sanchez, how would you put together a defense in this particular case right now for Michael Vick?
SANCHEZ: Well, what I would say is this, that the prosecution is relying on three witnesses, all of whom are low-lives. There`s no question about that. These guys were killing dogs, executing dogs, beating dogs. They had this rape stand, whatever that is, and they were...
BROOKS: OK, rape stand.
SANCHEZ: Right.
BROOKS: Want to see what a rape stand looks like? Talk about humane treatment?
SANCHEZ: You`re right. And these...
BROOKS: Ellie -- thank you, Liz. It`s coming up. But take a look at this.
SANCHEZ: These guys are awful.
BROOKS: It looks like something out of the dark ages, Alex.
SANCHEZ: Right. And that`s why the government is offering that year, because...
BROOKS: That`s the rape stand right there.
SANCHEZ: ... they`re relying on the three witnesses that are engaged in these type of activities. Why do you think the government is offering such a lenient amount of time for Michael Vick? Because they know they have three questionable witnesses, some of whom are on parole or probation, and the others who have engaged in this reprehensible conduct. You think the government wants to go to court on a case like this?
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: I think the government would like to take him to trial, let him go to trial, and let`s roll the dice and see what happens!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to convince a jury that these co- defendants are wrong, that they simply are trying to save their own necks, get a good deal, get a shorter sentence from prosecutors by pointing the finger at him. And he would have to convince 12 people that, in fact, he didn`t have that type of close connection to this dog fighting ring.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us tonight. Well, Michael Vick`s the last man standing. We thought that we might get a plea agreement from him today, but as of right now, we sure don`t. And the grand jury comes back in Richmond on Monday, and if he decides not to take that agreement, there could be a superseding indictment with even additional charges, possibly to include a RICO charge, Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organization, for Bad Newz Kennels.
Let`s go out to the lines. Nancy Grace. Good to have you with us.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Mike Brooks, I`ve been watching you every night, and I just can`t take it anymore. I`ve got a question for Sanchez. Sanchez, you keep saying that all the government`s case is all about these three witnesses. They had a case before these three co-defendants decided to fall.
And another thing, if they`re so bad, Alex Sanchez, what is he doing hanging around with them? If you had a best friend that was dog fighting and gambling and breaking the law, would you allow them to use your home? I guess not! So you need to put that lame argument to bed.
SANCHEZ: Well, you know something? I don`t think Michael Vick really appreciated or understood the people that were hanging around him. They were using him. They were taking advantage of him. He`s a well-known person...
BROOKS: Oh, he`s a big boy!
SANCHEZ: ... and these are all hangers-on. And they want to be part of the fame, the money and the women and everything else that comes along with it.
GRACE: OK, Sanchez, then how is it -- how is it that he did not see all the blood on the walls at his home, that he did not see the rape stand that Sue Moss just reminded you of, or any of the other evidence that Mike Brooks has told you about? And it`s not just Brooks, it`s a federal indictment!
SANCHEZ: You know, Nancy, you can`t prosecute somebody with just assuming that he must have seen this, and that`s what you`re doing right now. Don`t assume he saw this. I want evidence...
GRACE: I guarantee you one thing, Alex Sanchez...
SANCHEZ: Come into court and show me he actually did see it, Nancy.
GRACE: When you get home to your fancy New York apartment tonight, I guarantee you you`ll see the walls inside your apartment and you`ll notice if they`re blood-spattered, OK?
SANCHEZ: I don`t think I will. I think I`ll be very oblivious to it.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: I`ve got to go get off my seat with these twins. You people are driving me crazy!
BROOKS: Thanks, Nancy.
SANCHEZ: Take care, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DANIEL MEACHAM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL VICK: There`s no plea as of this moment. And what I wanted to say here is I`m under the impression that the government wants a plea to be done, if at all, by the end of this week. But there is no plea at this point.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, sitting in for Nancy Grace. That was the voice of one of his attorneys in Atlanta, Mr. Meacham, saying, basically, There is no deal on the table at this time. But I`ll tell you what, he better decide what he wants to do, and he better do it quickly.
I`d like to go out to Chris Derose. He`s president of Last Chance for Animals, and he`s been an adviser in the Michael Vick case. He`s out of LA. Thanks for joining us, Chris.
CHRIS DEROSE, PRES., LAST CHANCE FOR ANIMALS: Thank you.
BROOKS: Now, how widespread is this in sports? You`ve been an adviser on this case. Tell us exactly what role you`ve played in this case.
DEROSE: Well, let me just say we`ve worked with the OIG, Office of Inspector General. They`re the ones who have actually investigated this case, and they did a phenomenal job. We`ve had very little or nothing to do with it in the sense of this particular case. We`ve worked with them on other cases. We`ve got a prosecution in Arkansas on a different type of case, working with the OIG, another cock fighting case.
Animal fighting, cock fighting, dog fighting is rampant in this country, and it`s going on all over the place. And it`s and growing and growing and it needs to be curtailed. And the OIG is finally taking the reins and doing something about it. And I hope the U.S. attorney`s office does the same thing as far as the prosecution.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no infighting. And I would be offended for anybody to say that Billy Martin is rushing to try to plea Mike out because that`s the furthest thing from the truth. I respect him. I like him. He is an excellent litigator.
And none of us are rushing to do anything, because Virginia is known as the rocket docket. Everything is accelerized and accelerated. So we moved very quickly on this case with a lot of different kinds of things, but nobody`s rushing to plea Michael. Nobody`s rushing to try the case. What we want to do is to come up with the very best possible scenario to give Mike, who makes the ultimate decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks sitting in for Nancy Grace.
Well, the question, will Mike Vick or will Michael Vick take a plea or will he not take a plea? That`s the question. But, you know, it seems like, right from the beginning, Sandra Golden, with the first letter that went out to the fans after all this broke from Falcons owner Arthur Blank, it seems like he and the Falcons are basically trying to distance themselves from Michael Vick. What do you think?
SANDRA GOLDEN, SPORTS TALK RADIO HOST: I think Arthur Blank is genuinely hurt, and we have talked about this. He took Michael Vick under his wing like a son. And to learn all these things about Vick, he is equally as horrified.
I do want to add, Mike, that Arthur Blank, the owner of the Falcons, was interviewed tonight, right before the Buffalo preseason game -- they`re all in Buffalo -- and he was referring to, that he was talking, you know, when is Michael going to be able to play? He said, "I want to see that plea agreement. We`re supposed to get our hands on that plea agreement," which led me to believe it may be signed, sealed, delivered already. And, you know, Arthur, they asked, have you talked to Michael? He said, "I have not talked to Michael," but he was referring to that plea agreement as if it was done, and he`s a very smart man, because he has about $130 million invested in this situation.
BROOKS: You`re absolutely right. And he had even taken a lot of heat back when Michael Vick was injured, and he rolled him out on the field in a wheelchair, and saying that maybe he was a little bit too close to Michael Vick, but, I tell you what, I don`t want to be in Arthur Blank`s shoes right now.
Let`s go back out to the phones. Marcie from Pennsylvania, you have a question?
CALLER: Yes, Mike. If Michael Vick accepts his plea deal, how can the government go back and add more charges on under this RICO?
BROOKS: Midwin Charles, defense attorney, how can they add more charges?
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know that they can. I think what they are doing here is saying that, if he doesn`t take the plea, then they will issue a superseding indictment that will take the place of the old indictment, and then charge him with the RICO charges, in addition to what he`s facing now.
BROOKS: And we could possibly see that sooner than later.
Glenda from Mississippi, thanks for being with us. You have a question?
CALLER: Yes, I have a question for the panel. I`ve been listening to them say that Vick is squeaky clean, basically, in this and that codefendants are pointing the finger at Vick and he`s innocent in all of this. If he is so innocent, why is his attorneys even considering the plea bargain? Why would he even think that, because if he was to take it, the truth would come out in court if he is so innocent?
BROOKS: That`s a great question, Alex Sanchez? Why?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because a defense attorney has a legal obligation to engage in discussions with the government and present that information to their client so that their client can make the ultimate decision. It`s not the lawyers that are making the decision. It`s Michael Vick. And if the government calls me up and says, "We have a proposition for you," I have a legal obligation to go to Vick, whether I like the terms or not, and say, "This is what the government is offering. You can either accept or you can reject it." That`s why they`re engaging in those discussions.
BROOKS: But, Sue Moss, why is it taking so long for them to make up their mind? We heard from Sandra that possibly it could be signed, sealed and just ready to be delivered?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Because he`s trying to get as good of a deal as possible. And my guess is that he`s trying to figure out a way that he can create a plea bargain deal and get back into the NFL after he does his time.
BROOKS: Well, but though will he do any time at all, do you think?
MOSS: Absolutely. It would be outrageous for him to walk free.
BROOKS: Randy from Pennsylvania, thanks for joining us. Do you have a question?
CALLER: Yes, I do. My question is, is if he would have to reach a plea, my question is, is how come he doesn`t have the opportunity or the chance to take a polygraph test, but the others have?
BROOKS: Alex Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: He might have an opportunity. And if I was his defense lawyer and if I discussed this with Michael Vick and I believed Michael Vick was not involved in this, I would go to the government and say look, you know, let Michael Vick take a polygraph and let`s see if he`s telling the truth or not. But more likely than not, his defense attorneys have not approached the government with that proposition.
BROOKS: Got a special guest from Washington, D.C. He`s Bobby J. Brown, director of the documentary "Off the Chain," and has infiltrated dogfighting cases. Bobby, thanks for being with us again.
BOBBY BROWN, DIRECTOR, "OFF THE CHAIN": You`re welcome, Mike, thank you.
BROOKS: What do you say to people -- and we`ve heard athletes, we`ve seen other people saying, you know, I can take you down any road in the country and take you to a dogfight. You know, it`s not that big a deal. What do you say to those people that dogfighting is not a big deal?
BROWN: Well, you`re talking about the, you know, dogfighting, and there`s always one winner and one loser. And the big deal is that everybody loves the winner in the dogfighting world, but the loser, they come out -- the outcome is death. These people kill these dogs.
BROOKS: Now, there are over 60 dogs that were found on his property down in Surry County, Virginia. Where are these dogs now? And will these dogs be euthanized, Bobby?
BROWN: Yes? Oh, you know, that`s the terrible thing about it. The dog is the victim here, because once the dogs are seized from a dogfighter`s yard, they have no chance of being rehabilitated. They think that these dogs are basically a threat to the public, and they euthanize every dog that`s seized from a dogfighter`s yard.
BROOKS: You know, because we`ve heard reports, Bobby, that these dogs, you know, they`re OK, they`re docile. But do you think that they`ll ever be sent out to like a rescue organization or anything like that?
BROWN: Yes, while filming the documentary, I came into contact with a lot of rescue groups. And every rescue group that I came in contact with, they rescued these dogs from dogfighting yards and turned them into, you know, great pets. The animal is basically animal aggressive, not people aggressive.
BROOKS: Right.
BROWN: They can walk up, anybody can walk up to a dogfighter`s yard and pet these dogs. I mean, that`s why -- you know, that`s why these dogfighters are so worried about...
BROOKS: You know, I`d like to go out now to Gerald Rose, founder and CEO of New Order National Human Rights Organization. He`s organized the rallies in support of Michael Vick in Atlanta.
Thanks for being with us, Gerald.
GERALD ROSE, NEW ORDER NATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION: Thank you for having me.
BROOKS: Now, you`re a supporter of Michael Vick. Do you think he`s getting a raw deal?
ROSE: In the media, yes. We just want due process. And we`re going to continue to support him. Even if he gets found guilty, it`s time for healing progress. I had an opportunity to go to Piedmont Park a couple of weeks ago to see the Falcon supporters, and all you see was Michael Vick jerseys.
I had a Michael -- I do have a Michael Vick jersey where it says, "Support Vick, support Vick," and I had an opportunity to show this to Arthur Blank and Rich McKay, and they gave me the thumbs up. So we`re just concerned. But as being a black man I`m really concerned, on all our athletes on the decisions that they`re making, because when I was younger, I don`t remember the Isaiah Thomas, the Dr. Js, the Kareem Abdul-Jabbars getting in trouble. So it`s mentality of what`s going on.
But I`m just asking the whole world to be patient, because if he do go to jail, we`re just asking this man should get a second chance. I had a chance to meet Michael Vick last year when an 8-year-old little boy was shot in Atlanta. And he was the first one on the scene to visit this young man.
It`s just the fact I`m very upset on how this man is being treated in the media. I am concerned about the new reports that came out that he might take a plea, you know? So we`re just concerned as a black man to get his life together. And maybe God is getting his attention right now, but we do want to see Michael Vick back on the field.
BROOKS: But, you know, I think, Gerald -- and I`ve said this before - - I don`t think, when it comes to the NFL and him playing football again, I don`t think it`s about race. I don`t think it`s a social issue. I think it`s about running a business. It`s an employer-employee relationship, and that`s it.
Let`s go out to the lines, Charice from Virginia, thanks for being with us.
CALLER: Hi, yes, I was calling but you already answered my question. I think it`s more of a racial case than anything else.
BROOKS: What do you say to that, Sue Moss?
MOSS: Well, I certainly don`t. I think this is really a case about the dead dogs. It`s really a case about brutality. It`s really a case about somebody who`s looked up by many, many young children and teenagers who really has taken on a hobby which is so destructive, so anti-social, and so dangerous. And we, as a society, have to stand up and say this is unacceptable.
BROOKS: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers: When to Work on a Relationship and When to Walk Away," what drives people to get into dogfighting? And what kind of mentality do you have if you`re capable of killing a dog?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, my understanding is he grew up with gangs, violence, drugs, poverty. Maybe he`s reluctant to leave the life of the streets behind. This seems like the gang bangers version of a frat party. You can think of him as a Don Corleone of his own little mafia group. He`s the big cheese with all these guys. He`s ordering them to do vicious things. They hand bags of cash back and forth for the win, so he can feel very important. And then you have to think of sadism, which is tremendous excitement at inflicting acts of cruelty on other innocent parties.
BROOKS: When we come back, a husband strapped for cash throws his ailing wife over a balcony to her death.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators became suspicious of Reimer when he initially told him something bad happened to his wife. Later, police got a call from the deceased woman`s caregiver, who told them the woman had health issues that affected her brain and legs, that she could barely walk, that she couldn`t possibly climb over the railing on a balcony.
After that call, police say they questioned Stanley Reimer, and they say he told them he was in financial difficulties because of his wife`s medical condition, that he walks his wife to the balcony, kissed her, picked her up, and threw her off.
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BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us.
A 47-year-old woman, she suffered from hydrocephalus and neurofibromatosis, killed by her husband, 51-year-old Stanley Reimer, who worked in the accounting department at Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art. They lived in an upscale Kansas City high-rise. And it`s just such a sad case. And he said, yes, something did happen to his wife, but he also told police she didn`t jump.
For the latest, we go out to Craig Nigrelli, anchor at KCTV. Thanks for being with us. What`s the latest in this case? And kind of tell us exactly what happened.
CRAIG NIGRELLI, KCTV ANCHOR: Well, Mike, Stanley Reimer is behind bars tonight. He`s charged with second-degree murder. And as you mentioned, it certainly has been a captivating case ever since Tuesday night. Let me walk you through kind of the sequence of events.
It happened just about 9:00 on Tuesday night. We got word of an unattended death at an apartment complex, just south what is known as the Country Club Plaza here in Kansas City. It`s a trendy area of restaurants, as well as shops that a lot of tourists frequent. So at 9:00 at night, you can imagine it was packed with people.
Now, this apartment complex is only a couple hundred yards from there. As I mentioned, we got a word that there was an unattended death, that a woman was down on the concrete at this apartment complex. So we went over and noticed that there were a lot of police officers, including the Kansas City homicide detectives. The homicide unit was out there. They had the area roped off.
And I interviewed a woman who was out for her evening jog. She told me she left the apartment complex about 8:20. When she returned from her jog at about 8:45 at night, she noticed the woman lying on the ground with a terrible head wound, as if she had jumped or fell. So police continued their investigation for several hours. Now, during that time, paramedics brought a man out on a stretcher for some unknown malady or injury.
BROOKS: In the same building?
NIGRELLI: In the same building. And we asked police if the two were connected. The police were kind of tight-lipped, Mike, at that time, but we later learned that was, in fact, Criste Reimer`s husband, Stanley. Now, throughout the night, Tuesday...
BROOKS: What was wrong with him? Did he try to commit suicide after this?
NIGRELLI: No, it was one of those things. They wheeled him out on a stretcher, and it`s been abnormally hot here. We`ve had temperatures in the hundreds over the last several days. We at first thought he might have been overcome by heat or something had happened inside the apartment, but he looked dazed and confused, like he had witnessed something horrible.
BROOKS: I guess so.
NIGRELLI: And so, as time went on Tuesday night into Wednesday, from what we understand, this woman who was thrown to her death, allegedly, her caregiver somehow got in touch with police early in the morning, overnight on Wednesday, and said there`s no way that this Criste Reimer, that this woman with, as you mentioned, these terrible maladies of the nervous system that affected her brain, as well as her ability to walk...
BROOKS: Was the caregiver there at the apartment when it happened as a witness?
NIGRELLI: No, the caregiver was not there. The caregiver, from what we understand, called police and apparently said there`d be no way that, with her injuries, her ailments, or her condition that she could possibly prop herself up on this balcony. It was four stories up, but there was a railing there, as well.
BROOKS: So there`s no way, with the way she was, that she could have jumped off that balcony. She had to have been thrown.
NIGRELLI: That`s what the caregiver said, there would be no way to jump off that balcony. The police went to the hospital, whereas I mentioned, we saw this guy taken out on a stretcher.
BROOKS: Got you.
I`d like right now -- I want to go out to Washington, D.C., Dr. Marty Mackary, he`s a physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Mackary, help us understand a little bit about hydrocephalus and neurofibromatosis.
DR. MARTY MACKARY, PHYSICIAN, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, Mike, these are miserable conditions. I mean, hydrocephalus and neurofibromatosis are genetic mutations where tumors form at the end of nerves. They`re often painful. They`re disfiguring, almost like tuberculosis or leprosy in biblical times. People require multiple operations, radiation therapy. These are miserable conditions to live with.
BROOKS: It sounds like it would be. I want to go out to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, Bethany, would there be any warning signs of something like this, if he was acting differently? And what would bring someone to hurl someone off of a balcony? You know, they said the motive was financial difficulties, but it seems like it probably goes deeper than that.
MARSHALL: This seems to fit the profile -- obviously, I haven`t examined this man -- but it seems to fit the profile for something called catathymic homicide, which is when someone becomes persecuted at the idea of another person`s very existence and they obsess on wanting that person gone. Think the person who obsesses on their boss or an old boyfriend or girlfriend, and they keep talking and talking about mistreatment at that person`s hands, and you think, "Get over it, enough already," but they won`t rest.
That`s what catathymic homicide is like, and often there are no warning signs, but wonder, why did he feel persecuted by her? Was it the longer she lived, the more the medical bills would mount? Or was it the fact that she was now living in her mother`s home? Had he lost control of her? Or did he feel tortured by the fact that he couldn`t make her better? But I do not think that this was a mercy killing or well-intentioned in any way.
BROOKS: Very, very interesting.
And right now, we have a very special guest from Wichita, Kansas. Her name is Christina Hein. She`s Criste Reimer`s cousin. Thanks for being with us.
CHRISTINA HEIN, COUSIN TO MURDER VICTIM: Hi, how are you doing?
BROOKS: And I`m so sorry for what happened, so sorry for your loss.
HEIN: Thank you.
BROOKS: Can you tell us a little bit about Criste? And tell us a little bit about Stanley, also. And was there any signs, any indications at all that this could have happened?
HEIN: The only way to describe Criste is she`s the closest thing to a saint that I`ve ever met and probably will ever meet in my life. She was afflicted with this neurofibromatosis when she was a child, and I never once heard her ever say anything that was negative.
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BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, sitting in for Nancy Grace.
Well, you have a 51-year-old man that throws his 47-year-old ailing wife off a balcony. I`d like to go right back out to Christina Hein. She is Criste Reimer`s cousin. She was telling us a little bit about Criste and what kind of a person she was.
But, Christina, what I want to ask, they said there were financial difficulties. Was it apparent? Did they ever ask for any kind of help?
HEIN: To our knowledge, the financial difficulties that he discussed are misconstrued. My aunt had -- Criste was living with my aunt from April to July. And, according to newspaper articles and stories, Stan said that he was having bills $700 to $800 a week. She didn`t spend that much on health care for Criste in that entire time that she was living there. Criste had HMO, and she had a medical card for her prescriptions.
BROOKS: Oh, she did have HMO and prescription health then? Interesting.
HEIN: Yes, and she wasn`t 75 pounds. That was months ago. In fact, she was up into the 120, 128 range.
BROOKS: Now, he recently went to court to get power of attorney, if I`m not mistaken, and was going to sell off some of her assets to get money?
HEIN: He attempted that during April, when Criste first went to go live with my aunt.
BROOKS: Now, why did she go to live with her aunt? Was he not able to care for her?
HEIN: No, he gave the blessing. You know, it`s a very close family, and she enjoyed her time with her mother and with her sisters, and Stan had full access to her when she was at the mother`s house. And that was not reciprocated when he had her in Kansas City.
BROOKS: It`s a very, very sad case. And, again, we at the NANCY GRACE show have your family in our thoughts and in our prayers.
But tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Eric Lill, just 28, Chicago, Illinois, killed, Iraq. Eric was so motivated to join the military he dropped 40 pounds in four months and enlisted. A hockey player who also loved the White Sox, Lill leaves behind children, 6-year-old Cody and 4-year-old Mikayla, parents Charmaine and Anthony, sister Courtney, and grandparents, John and Marlene. Army Sergeant Eric Lill, American hero.
Thank you to all our guests, and our biggest thanks to you for inviting us into your homes and being part of us. We`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, stay safe.
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