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Astronaut Nowak in Florida Court Hearing on Monitoring

Aired August 24, 2007 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: We have a problem, Houston! Kids all over America want to be astronauts. Well, not now. NASA`s elite astronaut under oath on charges of kidnap, assault and stalking. Police say the lady astronaut, just back from a space mission, drove 900 miles with a disguise, pepper spray and a gun to take on a love rival. Motive? It`s a love triangle, and it`s a bumpy landing for this NASA astronaut in court today.
In the last hours, Nowak speaks out for the first time since her arrest, complaining (INAUDIBLE) in open court that her electronic ankle bracelet is causing a skin rash, that it interferes with her exercise, and she has to change the batteries. Hello? Does she know the alternative is to wait for trial in jail? All the while, Nowak`s love rival swears under oath she remains in fear for her life.

And tonight, new video emerges of a distraught astronaut Nowak in lock-up just minutes after her first (ph) arrest, this after the lady astronaut confronts the love rival armed with pepper spray, a gun, a buck knife, a mallet, a wig, plastic gloves and trash bags.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Former astronaut Lisa Nowak is in and Orlando court today on charges she assaulted a rival love interest, Air Force Captain Colleen Shipman. At today`s hearing, Lisa Nowak asked for her ankle bracelet to be removed because it was uncomfortable.

LISA NOWAK, FORMER ASTRONAUT: It`s held very tightly against my leg, so on those days, it causes abrasions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also complaining that it`s expensive.

NOWAK: $105 per week.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shipman told the judge she does not want the device removed because she`s scared of Mrs. Nowak.

CLAIRE SHIPMAN, ALLEGED VICTIM: When I`m home alone and there`s nobody there with me, it is a comfort.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you still afraid of Ms. Nowak?



GRACE: And tonight: Tumble dry takes on a whole new meaning. A Texas man locks a 2-year-old baby girl in an overheated clothes dryer. Why? He says the baby misbehaved during bath time, so he put her in the dryer, already hot and running. Result? Burns all over the baby girl`s body.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Texas man could spend the rest of his life behind bars for putting his girlfriend`s 2-year-old daughter in a hot clothes dryer. In a jailhouse interview, Bobby Lynn Curtis said it happened when he was giving the little girl a bath Sunday night.

BOBBY LYNN CURTIS, PUT CHILD IN CLOTHES DRYER: She doesn`t like to get her hair wet or her face. I pushed the issue of giving -- you know, making her wash her hair, and she just kept on hollering, you know, Momma, Momma. I kept getting madder and madder!


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

First, lady astronaut Lisa Nowak`s bumpy landing just hours ago in a courtroom. And it all started with a bitter love triangle.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Waving an American flag, her face all smiles...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And here they come.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Lisa Nowak went from this exclusive club of space travelers to an accused criminal who made headlines. Police said Nowak told them she wore diapers when she drove halfway across the country to confront another woman about a man. Police say Nowak, married with three children, wore a trenchcoat and wig and waited for Shipman in the parking lot at the airport when she arrived on a flight from Houston.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the parking lot, police found even more disturbing evidence -- a knife, a wig. The astronaut had plastic bags, latex gloves, and even a rope to tie someone up with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a tiny holding cell no bigger than the space shuttle`s crew cabin, Nowak told police all she wanted was to talk with Shipman.

NOWAK: She said she wouldn`t talk to me, and she walked away. I just wanted to have something that (INAUDIBLE) to stay here and just talk to me for a few minutes about this. But I didn`t get to do that!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The video shows Nowak at times pacing, lying on the floor, and hiding her face in the corner. Her attorney says she was clearly distraught, deprived of food, water, and a lawyer. He wants her statements thrown out, along with the evidence collected -- steel mallet, buck knife, a loaded BB gun.


GRACE: I don`t know about you, but every time I go for a drive, I always take my mallet. Got to have a mallet. Definitely need a carload of diapers, some of them soiled, in the back seat. And where would any of us be without our trusty buck knife? Got to have on of these, much less got to have a BB gun. Got to have a BB gun for a long drive.

Out to Jean Casarez. You were in the courtroom today. What did they have to say about all this?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, Nancy, you know, that really wasn`t at issue today because that was found on her person. But the hearing today extremely important for both sides because next month is trial, and the defense is trying to suppress her statement, her 72-page statement, the search of her vehicle, everything that was taken out of it and what she said during the search of her vehicle.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa! Wait, wa-wait. Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! OK, the defense is in court today and they want to suppress the statement she made to police. What else?

CASAREZ: The search of her car and the items that were collected from her car, and the statements that she made while her car was being searched. But before any of that, Nancy, they entertained the first motion, which was the ankle monitoring bracelet. And Lisa Nowak took the stand a little after 9:00 o`clock this morning to talk about why she wanted to not be -- have to wear that anymore.

GRACE: Let me guess. She`s in a lot of pain.

CASAREZ: No. Number one was public safety. Number one was public safety, that when she`s driving to and from work -- and she still lives in Houston and she travels to Corpus Christi to work at the naval base there, and she travels -- stays there for a number of days and goes back to Houston. But she says the battery`s only good for 12 to 15 hours. So many times, when she`s driving on the highway, the battery will start to go down. In about one minute, an alarm starts shrieking. She`s got to be able to pull over to the side, get her leg up so she can change the battery, and she feels that it`s a public safety hazard for herself and for others.

GRACE: Jean, I`ll tell you what`s a public safety hazard. It`s her going around spraying people in the face with pepper spray and one of these. Have you seen this thing, Jean? OK. Go ahead. I thought she told the court that the ankle bracelet -- and the alternative is to wait for trail behind bars in jail. Maybe she would like that better. But aside from the alternative of jail, didn`t she tell in open court today that the ankle monitor was causing her abrasion-type skin rash, that she couldn`t exercise with it on, and that she doesn`t like the cost of the batteries?

CASAREZ: That was number two -- you`re exactly right -- the fact that as part of her naval duties, she`s got to do aerobic exercise and that she can`t do it very well with the monitoring anklet on. So that was number two. Number three really was basically that she can`t be near water, and so she can`t accompany her children to the pool. And then she went on talking about that she wasn`t able to take a bath well.

And then there was the fact of the money. It was $105 a month. That`s almost $3,000 right now, and the money could be better spent elsewhere. And she said, I`ve complied with everything concerned with my bail release, and I will continue to do so, and I`m just asking that it can be removed.

GRACE: You are seeing video, grainy surveillance video taken in the airport. There she comes. You see the alleged victim in the first circle to your right, and you see the defendant, lady astronaut Lisa Nowak, stalking her all the way through the airport, all the way out to the parking lot, to her car, the victim`s car, where she then assaulted her, spraying her in the face with pepper spray.

Today, she is in court, wanting the judge to allow her not to wear her ankle bracelet. I don`t know why she`s out on bond anyway, all right, number one. Number two, trying to get her confession thrown out of court, basically, in my mind, through trickery. We`re going to allow the defense attorneys to make their argument in just a moment.

But first to the lines. Joining us there on the scene, Court TV`s Jean Casarez. Out to Anika in Ohio. Hi, Anika.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, criminal law 101, mens rea (ph). Was the mental state of the astronaut examined shortly after she was taken into custody and released?

GRACE: Oh, Anika! Anika, are you a lawyer?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You could say that. I`m not practicing currently. University of Akron law school grad.

GRACE: I hear that because very few people would know the Latin phrase "mens rea," which means the state of your mind, the intent, your mental intent at the time of the incident. Very often, defense lawyers will argue there was no mens rea, there was no intent to commit a crime.

I want to go very quickly back out to Jean Casarez. Jean, you were there. I`ve read this transcript right here, and this woman clearly is in her right frame of mind because at the very beginning, she starts asking police, Do you have to tell my boss about this? Why does Johnson Space Center have to know that I`ve been arrested on stalking and aggravated assault, that I`m carrying a buck knife with a bunch of dirty diapers in the car? I mean, she is more worried about her job, and she gives a very extensive statement.

CASAREZ: And you know, Nancy, maybe that`s why the defense wants it suppressed, right, because in the 72 pages, she keeps saying, All I want to do was talk with Colleen. That`s all I want to do. But if you look at her mental state, it`s very good. And Nancy, what I heard, that if this goes to trial, the defense will be in the mental area. And Anika is right. She did have a psychiatrist, not until she got to Houston, though, I believe, which was right after she was bailed out.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss out of New York, Daniel Horowitz, battling defense attorney out of California, Jeffery Steinberger joining us out of LA.

First to you, Susan Moss. Weigh in. What about this (INAUDIBLE) my ankle bracelet`s causing a rash? I nearly fell off my chair!

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, my favorite statement was when she said she couldn`t drive with the ankle bracelet. I don`t know, why not use the other leg? She couldn`t exercise. How about taebo (ph)? I mean, this woman is ridiculous! She sprayed someone with mace, and she`s not going back to outer space. She`s going to jail for a very, very long time. We`ve got a very credible witness. We`ve got evidence on her person. Game over.

GRACE: Daniel Horowitz, go ahead, give me your best shot.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, she`s not a threat to anyone. She had a very...

GRACE: Except Colleen.

HOROWITZ: Not anymore. She had a very tough time. She lost, you know, 20 percent of her body weight in the weeks before this happened. She was falling to pieces. But she`s still that astronaut who went to space...

GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, Daniel Horowitz...

HOROWITZ: ... lived her life. She`s deserving the respect...

GRACE: Let me see Horowitz.

HOROWITZ: ... not this kind of attack that she`s guilty before she`s gone to trial. She made a mistake. Let her go.

GRACE: She lost part of her body weight. Do you know women all over this country pay money to lose part of their body weight?

HOROWITZ: Yes, and it`s damaging, Nancy.

GRACE: Don`t even encourage me about losing weight.

HOROWITZ: Come on, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to talk to you...

HOROWITZ: It`s damaging to her.

GRACE: ... about the argument that her statement should be suppressed, her confession...


GRACE: ... because she didn`t get Miranda. I`ve read the Miranda rights that they gave her, I believe there at the airport. Right, Jean, at the airport?

CASAREZ: Yes, at the airport. Yes, it was in an interview room at the airport.

GRACE: I`ve got three times they tell her she has the right to have an attorney with her, and in fact -- I`ve told defendants this a million times -- if you can`t afford a lawyer, the state will pay for you to have a lawyer, three times that I counted, and I`m sure there are more, Daniel Horowitz. So I don`t think she`s got a leg to stand on.

HOROWITZ: Correct me if I`m wrong. She never clearly said, OK, I understand my rights, I give them up. They took a woman who was in a very tough state of mind and they rolled over her. They never were willing to risk having her sign a paper saying, I give up my rights, because they knew if they made it black and white, she`d say no. So they knew she...

GRACE: They got her on tape.

HOROWITZ: ... was unstable, and they pushed over her, Nancy.

GRACE: They didn`t know she was unstable.

HOROWITZ: Yes, they did.

GRACE: There was no reason to know she was unstable. In fact, Jean, isn`t it true that they go through with her -- I guess this cop Googled her because they went through all of her experience, I believe it was 1,500 hours of flight time on various aircraft in space, all types of missions she had been on, her education, her vast credentials. She goes right along with it. She speaks very coherently. And in this statement, I don`t see any suggestion that she`s got a mental defect.

CASAREZ: No, but what Daniel Horowitz is saying is right. It`s very interesting, like some of the terminology, Now that you`ve agreed to talk with me, let me tell you some formalities. And the defense attorney made a lot to do where that, formalities, Miranda, and you`re saying it after you assert that you`ve decided to talk with me?

Another interesting aspect, you know, you have a right to a lawyer. Have you watched "Cops"? Ever watch "Cops" on the television? So just sort of diverting her away...

GRACE: Jean...

CASAREZ: ... from being able to answer...

GRACE: Jean...

CASAREZ: ... the question.

GRACE: Jean?

CASAREZ: I know what you`re going to say, Nancy, and there is a lot of leeway in that interview. I know what you`re saying. But there`s a possibility this statement could be thrown out.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, not just reporting, everyone, Jean a practicing lawyer, as well, before she joined Court TV. Jean, you know that cops can even use trickery to get a statement if they want to. They can play on your guilt. They can play on your religion, your beliefs in God. The seminal case is the Christian burial case, where in the back seat of the patrol car, cops had a murder suspect, and they played on the fact that his victim would never have a Christian burial, and the guy broke down and cracked and led them to the body.


GRACE: There`s absolutely nothing -- Susan Moss, back me up on this - - wrong with anything they said to her, and they gave her her Miranda rights, and she blabbed.

MOSS: They gave her her Miranda rights. She heard them. She started to respond, and then she freely spoke. These statements are staying in. But even if they go out, this is an open and shut case.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Linda in California. Hi, Linda. Uh-oh! Hold on. It`s Mike in California. Hi, Mike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. First, as a high school student, you are a true role model.

GRACE: You know what, Mike? I really appreciate that, and I hope that in some small way, I can live up to what you said. Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is, does Lisa Nowak still want to be with her husband, or are they totally done with each other?

GRACE: Oh, excellent question. Out to Alan McBride, science reporter with the Florida Radio Network. Alan, haven`t they filed for divorce? Who has the children?

ALAN MCBRIDE, FLORIDA RADIO NETWORK: It`s my understanding they have filed for divorce. As far as the rest is concerned, I`m not terribly certain of that. I believe she`s petitioned for custody of the children.

GRACE: So if she`s petitioned, Jean Casarez. that must mean she doesn`t have them.

CASAREZ: Well, the fact is, from what I understand from directly from the defense camp, they are separated, that divorce has not been filed. And we heard in testimony today that the children live with her at her home.

GRACE: Oh, I see. OK, so she`s got the children, but there`s no suggestion there`s going to be a reconciliation in the marriage?

CASAREZ: Not that I know of, no.

GRACE: That`s your answer, Mike in California. Linda. Hi, Linda.


GRACE: How are you, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m fine. Jean Casarez sort of got on my question. My first question was, why were the attempted murder charges dropped? And why does she still have her children living with her? I heard her (INAUDIBLE) and I don`t feel very comfortable.

GRACE: I`m very concerned also, Jean. If she`s mounting a mental defense, which is where you think they`re headed, why would she still have the children?

CASAREZ: I think we`re all wondering about that because you know how family courts are. You also know it`s sealed, so we never know what is happening. I read in one of the defense motions, though, with this ankle monitor thing, that she was concerned because she couldn`t take the children to the pool. I felt the defense put that in intentionally to show us all she still had contact with her children, and I was sort of surprised by that. And then we hear this in court today. So if family court is involved, she at least is with them a lot of the time.

GRACE: Out to Jeffery Steinberger, defense attorney. You know, Jeffery, it sounds like she wants her cake and wants to eat it, too, in that they`re going to -- they got her red-handed, stalking this woman, she`s on video. Tonight we`re going to show you in a few moments video surveillance of her immediately in lock-up there at the airport, very distraught. She wants to claim a mental defect, but yet she wants to claim she`s a good mother and the children should be with her at the same time. What about it?

JEFFERY STEINBERGER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, you know what? They don`t have her red-handed because none of this evidence is going to come in. You know, your guest talked about being properly Mirandized, and she wasn`t properly Mirandized. She was sitting in a little (INAUDIBLE) hole. They did an Adam and Eve seduction number with her. They put her in a little 12-by-12 -- a little closet of a place, gave her no food, no drink for 12 hours.

GRACE: Three hours.

STEINBERGER: ... got her down there -- whatever, 12 hours.

GRACE: Three hours.

STEINBERGER: ... and didn`t -- and the cop comes in and says, You know what? Let`s just -- I`m going to give you an apple. Let`s talk about the feelings. And are you going to use any of this against me? No, I promise I won`t use any of this against you, you know? So they just hustled her. Look, I like to be kissed when I`m being seduced. I don`t like this stuff.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard your lawyer just a moment ago say that you`re given some comfort by the fact that the GPS restriction keeps -- and the monitoring device which Ms. Nowak is wearing keeps her from coming to Brevard County, Florida.

SHIPMAN: It gives me comfort, that`s correct, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you still afraid of Ms. Nowak?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want her taken off the ankle monitor?

SHIPMAN: Absolutely not.


GRACE: In court today, lady astronaut Lisa Nowak complains, complains about her ankle bracelet, the monitor that makes sure she doesn`t go near her alleged victim.

Back out to Jean Casarez with Court TV. Jean, you were in court today. I`m reading the transcript, and the cops clearly tell her, Anything you say will be used against you in a court of law.

CASAREZ: You`re right, a lot of that language was used, exactly -- You have a right to retain a lawyer, a lot of those things. But there were also deviations away, and so it wasn`t -- it didn`t allow her, the defense said, to be able to truly think about and answer the question.

GRACE: OK. OK, I know BS when I smell it, OK? He told her over and over her Miranda rights. Was there a point where he promised her that whatever she said would not be used against her?

CASAREZ: What he kept saying to her was that he would try to help her, he would try to help her, If you talk to me.

GRACE: OK. So the answer would be no. There`s nowhere in this transcript -- back to you, Jeff Steinberger. You`re doing a great job of twisting the facts. Hey, I like it. That`s why there`s prosecutors and defense attorneys. Nowhere in this statement did they tell he, We will not use your words against you, Jeff. Where did you get that?

STEINBERGER: No, Nancy, there`s part of that. I mean, (INAUDIBLE) he gives her the implication that, you know, Sweetie, whatever you tell me, I`m not going to use anything against you.

GRACE: He never said that. Where are you getting that?

STEINBERGER: He says in the transcript -- it says on there that he says, You know what? Let`s talk about your feelings. Let`s talk about what you feel about this stuff.

GRACE: OK. Well, that`s not what you said.

STEINBERGER: No, no. And then he says in there...

GRACE: That`s not what you said!

STEINBERGER: She directly says to him, You know what? Are you going to use anything about this against me? And he says, Absolutely not.


GRACE: Is that true, Jean Casarez? Is that true, Jean. Does he tell her he`s not going to use it against her?

CASAREZ: I didn`t read that in the 72 pages.



NOWAK: She said she wouldn`t talk to me, and she walked away. I just wanted to have something that (INAUDIBLE) to stay here and just talk to me for a few minutes about this. But I didn`t get to do that!


GRACE: Lady astronaut Lisa Nowak in a Florida courtroom today under oath. Her defense team wants her alleged confession thrown out of evidence, and she complained that her ankle bracelet is chafing her ankle.

OK, out to the lines. Rikki in California. Hi, Rikki.


GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is about her job. Now, what has NASA said, if anything, about what her job, or have they let her go?

GRACE: Rikki, I got clarification on that just a few hours ago. Is this correct, Alan McBride, that she`s no long with the astronaut program, but she`s still employed by the Navy?

MCBRIDE: She is still employed by the Navy. She was assigned to NASA from the Navy for a certain term of service, and she was suspended from those duties in the wake of this. At the end of that suspension, she was reassigned -- well, NASA basically released her from her obligations to the space agency and returned her to the Navy.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lisa Nowak, she is the former NASA astronaut accused of assaulting a romantic rival. Nowak is trying to get her ankle bracelet monitor removed as she awaits trial. The alleged victim of the assault is clearly opposing that request. Nowak`s lawyer also wants to suppress some statements that she actually made to police on that night and also to suppress some of the actual items that were seized from her car. Now, the alleged victim of the attack will report that she is afraid of Nowak. The defendant is promising, by the way, to abide by an order to stay away from the woman.

LISA NOWAK, FORMER ASTRONAUT: The past six months have been very difficult for me, my family, and others close to me. I know that it must have also been very hard for Colleen Shipman, and I would like her to know how very sorry I am about having frightened her in any way and about the subsequent public harassment that has besieged all of us.


GRACE: Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, it`s all about me. The media`s bothering me. I`ve been through a hard time. Oh, yes, and I`m sorry I sprayed you in the face with pepper spray or made you afraid.

Out to Marti Mackenzie. This is the spokesman for the Nowak defense team. And she is an author of "Courting the Media: Public Relations for the Accused and the Accuser."

Marti, thank you for being with us. Can I ask you a question? Why did your client have a backseat full of diapers, some of them soiled?

MARTI MACKENZIE, SPOKESPERSON FOR LISA NOWAK: Well, actually, I know that that has sort of been talked to death, and I`m here actually to respond to the prosecution`s accusation that Lisa is spending money on a media consultant. And I was hoping we could talk about that tonight.

GRACE: We can, but could you first answer the diaper question?

MACKENZIE: Well, about a month ago, her lawyer called it a "preposterous lie," and I don`t think there`s been anything to refute that since that time. And I know it`s a really hot topic when it comes up, but it is a preposterous lie. And I`m quoting Donald Lykkebak, her lawyer. And I believe that was the last word officially said on this, so I`m going to leave it at that.

GRACE: OK, this was my question. It was also bandied about she used diapers when she was preparing for the evacuation of Hurricane Rita, which I believe was in 2005, and this incident with the pepper spray and the alleged stalking was 2007. That`s a long time to keep soiled diapers in your backseat.

MACKENZIE: Well, you know, Nancy, as a spokesperson, I have to be just that, and I am a spokesperson for Donald Lykkebak, and he called it a preposterous lie, and let`s move on.

GRACE: OK. Well, ma`am, when you come on this show, be prepared for some tough questions.


GRACE: But I want you to have your say, so go ahead.

MACKENZIE: Thank you. Thank you. Well, you know, I came today especially because today in the courtroom -- and as you said, Lisa`s motion listed a number of reasons to remove the ankle monitor, and one of those reasons had to do with expense. And she was actually a little embarrassed by that, but her lawyer put it in there. And the prosecution said, well, if you can afford to hire a media consultant, why can`t you afford to wear ankle monitor? Well, I want to speak to that, because that prosecutor works in an office with a full-time media relations specific...

GRACE: Yes, but they`re not saying they can`t afford batteries.

MACKENZIE: No, but so does the police department. And I want to know why people who are up against that kind of media machine aren`t entitled to media relations, as well.

GRACE: Well, they are, Ms. Mackenzie, if they can afford it. But for her to then go to court and plead poverty that she can`t afford a battery for her ankle bracelet is pretty duplicitous in my mind.

MACKENZIE: Actually, the batteries are included. I think it`s a package deal, and they`re not extra. But I will tell you that, 10 years ago...

GRACE: Well, that`s what she was complaining about in court today, was the price of the battery.

MACKENZIE: Well, she wasn`t actually complaining. It was Don Lykkebak`s motion.

GRACE: Oh, that`s lawyer, and he speaks for her.

MACKENZIE: It was. He does speak for her.

GRACE: You`re parsing words, Ms. Mackenzie, because what he said is representing her. Don`t try to pull wool over my eyes. He is representing her. You are representing her. Here is your chance to speak on her behalf. And all you`re talking about is why she needs to have a media consultant, i.e. you. I want you to tell me why I should sympathize with her.

MACKENZIE: Well, that might be hard for you to do, and I understand why, and I know where you`re coming from, as a former prosecutor, but I did want to say to you that, 10 years ago in Orange County, Florida, in this very Florida, an indigent person received a media consultant paid for by Orange County. And that`s part of my mission, and part of my mission in writing my book was to advocate that you need to balance the scales of justice in the media, in the public eye, as well as you do in the courtroom, and that sometimes people are up against a media machine, paid for by the state, and they are really at a disadvantage. And so, in this case, I know I`m fulfilling an unusual role.

GRACE: I want to go to Daniel Horowitz, a veteran defense attorney and crime victim. Daniel, I fully appreciate -- I never had any media help when I tried cases ever. We couldn`t afford it in our jurisdiction, which was inner city Atlanta. Money went toward victim`s rights, working our cases, forensics. We didn`t have any media help; that`s not the issue tonight.

The issue is what happened. And to now complain about an ankle bracelet or you`re not getting enough media support, the issue is, did she stalk the lady victim? Did she spray her in the face with pepper spray? Did she pull -- Daniel, can you see me? I don`t know if you`ve got a monitor.


GRACE: Did she pull one of these? Did she carry one of these? Does Colleen Shipman, the alleged victim, late at night when she`s at home alone wonder if this lady is going to show up at her kitchen window? I wonder.

I mean, hey, Elizabeth, let`s go through that list of stalkers that we had. Clark, if you could give me that. Oh, no, I`ve got it right here. No, I don`t. There`s a list of stalkers that we are familiar with, because they`ve stalked celebrities.

And what we have learned from watching stalkers, Mark Hillman, psychotherapist and author, is that they very rarely -- thanks -- give up. For instance, you have Marcia Diane Valentine who relentlessly stalked superstar Sandra Bullock, basically Miss America. Sandra Bullock, minding her own business, this lady -- if we could get that photo, Liz, that would be great --lying in her driveway, waiting for bullock to come out.

Then you had Robert John Bardo who stalked Rebecca Schaeffer. You had Mark Hatten who stalked Anna Nicole Smith. John Hinckley, of course, stalked Jodie Foster, ultimately shooting the president to impress her. Robert Hoskins stalked Madonna. Gunther Parche stalked Monica Seles, the tennis star. Yolanda Saldivar stalked Selena and ultimately killed Selena, murdered her. Dawnette Knight stalked Michael Douglas, showing up inside the home. And Margaret Ray stalked David Letterman.

Long story short, Mark Hillman, people don`t just stop stalking.

MARK HILLMAN, CLINICAL PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You are absolutely correct. And at the top of the hour, you talked about the facts. Look, this is -- both these couples, Bill and Lisa, were married. Bill doesn`t have children; Lisa has three. They have a three-year torrid affair. He separates first. She`s in the process. He`s now single.

He looks at the reality. The bubble is burst. She`s married. He`s going to all of the sudden become a husband and take care of three step- children? He ends the relationship. She breaks into his house, gets his phone bills, gets his e-mail. He starts a new relationship. She drives across the country with the artifacts you spoke about at the beginning of the show. She was there very conscious to terrorize, stalk this woman.

GRACE: So, bottom line, my question was...

HILLMAN: She won`t stop.

GRACE: ... stalkers don`t stop.

HILLMAN: They do not, you are correct.

GRACE: They won`t stop. And I say that only, Daniel Horowitz, after watching it in court myself. Now, Daniel, let`s get real. I`ve got the transcript. They gave her Miranda. What`s the likelihood that this statement, this confession is going to be thrown out?

HOROWITZ: Nancy, first of all, the Miranda rule is supposed to be a very clear line so we don`t have these kinds of debates. The cops know the magic words to say, and the person says yes or no. The Supreme Court has said, well, if the police fudge it or mess up a little bit, we won`t hold it against them. Bottom line is, did they roll over her a tacit "yes" or did they really just ignore her rights? We`ll find out.

GRACE: So Jonathan Clark, a special guest joining us tonight, this is a friend of Lisa Nowak, the lady astronaut. He is a former NASA flight surgeon. His credentials are impeccable, and he is defending Lisa Nowak tonight.

Jonathan, thank you for being with us. It looks bad for her right now. Tell me what your thoughts are.

JONATHAN CLARK, FRIEND OF LISA NOWAK: Well, Nancy, you know, I think, as I`ve said all along, I think you have to look back at this and say, what has this woman done in the service of her country? And her overall quality far overrides this transient anomaly in her behavior.

I think what you have to look at here is what the reality is. She sprayed pepper spray on somebody. You know, military officers like Colleen Shipman have been exposed to tear gas as part of their training. This is nothing outside the ordinary. Now, true, Lisa`s actions were not appropriate, but in the reality of the situation, you have to look at the whole picture. And you know...


GRACE: You know, Jonathan, I agree with you that she has served her country, but frankly, spraying someone in the face with pepper spray is not ordinary.




BOBBY LYNN CURTIS, ACCUSED OF CHILD ABUSE: I`ve been her boyfriend with Casey, and I`ve had my anger issues with her and with her children, but I`ve never laid my hands on them, ever.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man in Lumberton, Texas, admits to an outrageous act of child abuse. Bobby Lynn Curtis says, when his girlfriend`s 2-year-old daughter started acting up, he put her in a hot clothes dryer. It burned her arms, and now Curtis could go to prison for life.

CURTIS: I`m truly sorry for what I`ve done. I don`t know what happened, but it wasn`t me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Curtis is a construction worker who does jobs at area plants. The Mauriceville native lived in this house in Lumberton with his girlfriend of one year with her 6-year-old son and her 2-year-old daughter and their 12-week-old baby girl. During this jailhouse press conference, a sobbing Curtis could not offer an explanation, just an apology.

CURTIS: I know everybody knows what I did, and is thinking, you know, what the hell is this dude thinking? What is he thinking? I don`t know what I was thinking.


GRACE: I`m sorry, sir, but that is not a defense under the law, "I don`t know what I was thinking." This guy allegedly was giving his girlfriend`s bath, also the girlfriend has another daughter by him, 12 weeks old. And when the littler 2-year-old girl didn`t want her hair washed, he put her in an already heated up running dryer, a 2-year-old in a heated dryer. The child`s body, her arms were totally covered in first- and second-degree burns.

Out to Angel San Juan, news anchor KBTV, thank you for being with us. What you can tell us about this case? What exactly happened, to your knowledge?

ANGEL SAN JUAN, NEWS ANCHOR: Well, Nancy, first of all, thanks for having me on. And it is an incredible case. In fact, everybody around here was shocked. But basically what we know is, last Sunday evening, he was left alone, Bobby Lynn Curtis was left alone with the kids, as his girlfriend, Casey, went to Wal-Mart, when he was giving the 2-year-old girl, the one that`s not his daughter, a bath, and he said she never liked her hair washed or her face washed. Well, he decided to push the issue, and she started crying for her mom, and he said he just got madder and madder, and he said he just lost it. And that`s when he picked her up and put her into the dryer that was already running with some of her clothes in it.

GRACE: How long is he saying he kept her in the dryer, Angel San Juan?

SAN JUAN: Five seconds.

GRACE: He says five seconds. To Dr. William Morrone out of Madison Heights, Michigan, an expert in his field, Dr. Morrone, is that possible for her to get this kind of first- and second-degree burns in just five seconds?

DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Absolutely. The skin will burn first- and second-degree burns and scald with one second contact at 155 degrees. And the way a child is put in, there`s no room for it to not touch anything. That child was touching -- five seconds was terrible.

GRACE: Explain to me first- and second-degree burns. We`ve all heard first-, second-, third-degree burns.

MORRONE: The important thing about a first-degree burn is it`s a little bit more severe than a sunburn. Like a sunburn, it just touches the epidermis. The dermis, the next layer, is what includes veins, nerves and arteries, and a second-degree burn can get down into that layer, and you can get an infection, you can lose fluid. It blisters. And then, how do you sit or hold things for the next four to six weeks?

GRACE: So a first-degree burn is the least serious, second-degree and third-degree?

MORRONE: Absolutely. The number goes up, and it gets more severe.

GRACE: Out to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with Santa Ana PD, this is a 2-year-old little girl. If this goes to trial, how do we prove it?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE: There`s a variety of ways. One is, is use the guy`s statement. He`s already admitted that he did it. I don`t think proof is going to be a problem. I think what this guy has a problem with is he`s going to be thrown into one of these big dryers over at the county jail if he`s not careful, and that`s probably why he`s making this public statement. He`s trying to look like he`s sorry. This was a cold, callous individual that doesn`t care about kids. He doesn`t belong to be around kids, and I hope that the court takes any visitation he has away from his own kid, because this shows he has no feelings at all.

GRACE: You know, Donald Schweitzer, you`re right. You have not only the child the next morning telling the mom she need band-aids or bandages and showed the mom all the burns all over her. The mom, to her credit, called police. You know, a lot of times moms side with the boyfriend. Not in this case.

Susan Moss, what`s this guy`s chances of getting his 12-week-old little girl back?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Even if he gives up all the appliances, he`s never getting this girl back, and he`ll be lucky to even get supervised visitation if he even gets that. What, the microwave was broken? What scares me most about this guy is that he says, "Oh, I don`t even know why I did it." Well, that means he won`t be able to stop it the next time. And if he`s allowed in front of children, there will be a next time.

GRACE: To Lorraine in New Jersey, hi, Lorraine.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy, how are you doing? I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. I`m hanging in there. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Well, what I`d like to know is, does this guy have any other criminal records?

GRACE: Lorraine, he does, Feb. 2001, theft of property; April 2001, three counts burglary of a vehicle; March 2003, possession of a controlled substance. Did I lose Lorraine? That`s your answer, Lorraine. I don`t know the latest one, the most recent one was 2003.

Out to Daniel Horowitz and Jeff Steinberger. To you, Daniel Horowitz, this jailhouse apology, why did he call a press conference? This is going to come into court against him.

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, I think he`s genuinely sorry. That doesn`t excuse him. But, you know, when he said, "It`s not me," it`s a typical problem that people have who commit crimes. They see themselves one way; they act another way.

Therapy, good psychotherapy and a structured environment helps them understand, "Yes, the bad guy is you, and the good guy. Deal with the bad guy, keep it under control, and get better." He should be punished but not as severely as some of your guests seem to imply. He`s not a total animal, Nancy, but he is a very, very, very sick man at this point.

GRACE: Jeff Steinberger, Daniel once again thinks that a defendant is "sick." The little girl is the one covered in second-degree burns, Jeff.

JEFFREY STEINBERGER, ATTORNEY: That`s right. Nancy, this guy is the poster child for diminished capacity, because no one could be that stupid, that dumb, that irresponsible, that insensitive to put a 2-year-old in a cycling machine. It`s just not going to hold up in court, but he`s an idiot and a moron, and I don`t think his defense is going to fly here. Insanity`s not going to work. State of mind is not going to work. The only thing is he maybe he...


GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched our lives.


GRACE: Where is the justice in a cheap plea? I don`t get it. Why did they let Vick twiddle his thumbs and go, "Do, do, do, do, do, do," over the weekend, the other co-defendants had to say yay or nay.


GRACE: No, you hold on. I want to know why you think Vick, with all of these dead dogs, with blood on the wall, a rape stand in the backyard, you`re telling me that he was targeted?

A baby boy left abandoned on a doorstep, Chicago. Who`s the baby? Who`s the mom? The baby was found in a carrier with a bag of formula and clothes. Part of the umbilical cord still attached.

Sibila, hold on. To the control room and to Liz, Liz, I don`t understand the significance of showing Lindsay Lohan in a bikini. I`ll let you think about that during Sibila`s -- yes, it`s not funny.

Well, you know what? When I get charged with two cocaine possession, I`m going to hire you. Renee, Moss, you`re out. I`m hiring Oshins.

How tall are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five-ten. So (INAUDIBLE) is playing a role. And when I was hired for wrestling, and that was a role to me. I just happened to be a good athlete.

GRACE: You know, you`ve got about 10 inches, but I think I`ve got about 80 pounds on you. OK, but go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`d whoop my butt, Nancy.


GRACE: Tonight, let`s remember Marine Lance Corporal Steven Stacy, 23, Coos Bay, Oregon, killed, Iraq. In Iraq just three weeks, awarded the Purple Heart. With a generous heart, a real adventurer, smile lit that lit up a room, loved scuba diving, snorkeling. Dream? To scuba in exotic places like Singapore, Thailand, Kuwait. Leaves behind grieving parents, Dana, Stanley, step-dad, Robert. Steven Stacy, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but most of all to you for being with us. A special good night from the New York control room. Let me know when you get that picture up, Liz. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.