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CNN Larry King Live
Craig's Arrest Audiotape Released
Aired August 30, 2007 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight Senator Larry Craig's notorious bathroom bust caught on a sensational police audio tape.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DAVE KARSNIA, INVESTIGATIVE SERGEANT: I guess -- I guess I'm going to say I'm just disappointed in you, sir. I just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. But, I mean -- I mean, people vote for you.
SEN. LARRY CRAIG (R), IDAHO: Yes, they do.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KING: The cop calls the senator a liar.
But Craig makes a claim of his own.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CRAIG: I don't -- I am not gay. I don't do these kinds of things and...
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: That doesn't matter. I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that.
Here's your stuff back, sir. I don't care about sexual preference.
CRAIG: I know you don't. You're out to enforce the law.
KARSNIA: Right.
CRAIG: But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KING: Does Craig have a case?
After this, does he still have a career?
The rest of that tape and all the latest on this exploding scandal with the reporter who broke the story and more.
And then the stars of the new season of reality sensation "Dancing With The Stars".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "DANCING WITH THE STARS," COURTESY ABC)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's get this party started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Jennie Garth, Marie Osmond and Dr. Quinn herself, Jane Seymour -- who will be the next queen of America's favorite dance floor?
They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
We have an outstanding panel to discuss the Senator Craig case.
They are, here in Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, the high profile attorney.
In Miami, Stacey Honowitz, the assistant Florida state attorney.
In Washington, Paul Begala, the CNN political contributor and Democratic strategist.
Also, in Washington Republican strategist Michelle Laxalt.
Here in Los Angeles, Dr. Drew Pinsky, assistant professional professor of psychiatry at USC.
And in Washington, John McArdle, the political reporter for "Roll Call". They -- his paper and he broke the Craig story.
Now, you know, you know all about that there is an audio tape that's been played all day everywhere.
We're going to play it in its entirety.
This features Senator Craig and the police sergeant who arrested him, David Karsnia. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KARSNIA: Have I got to fight you in court?
CRAIG: No. No.
KARSNIA: I'm not going to go to court unless you want me there.
CRAIG: Because I don't want to be in court either.
KARSNIA: OK. I don't either. (INAUDIBLE) Here's the way it works. You will you will be released today, OK? CRAIG: OK.
KARSNIA: All right. I know I can bring you to jail, but that's not my goal here, OK?
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: Don't do that. You -- you...
KARSNIA: I'm not going to bring you to jail.
CRAIG: You solicited me.
KARSNIA: OK. We're going to get -- we're going to get into that. (INAUDIBLE).
CRAIG: OK.
KARSNIA: But there's -- there's two ways, yes. You can, you can -- you can go to court. You can plead guilty.
CRAIG: Yes.
KARSNIA: There will be a fine. You won't have to explain anything. (INAUDIBLE) And you pay a fine. You'll be done. Or, if you want to plead not guilty -- you know, and I can't make these decisions for you.
CRAIG: No, no. Just tell me where I am (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: I need to make this flight.
KARSNIA: OK. And then I go to -- if you are not guilty, then I would have to come to court and I would have to testify to what I saw, OK?
So, those are the two things, OK?
Did I explain that part?
CRAIG: Yes.
KARSNIA: OK.
I'm just going to read you your rights real quick, OK?
CRAIG: Yes.
KARSNIA: You got it on?
NOEL NELSON, DETECTIVE: Yes.
KARSNIA: OK.
All right.
The date is 6/11/07 at 12:28 hours.
Mr. Craig?
CRAIG: Yes.
KARSNIA: Sorry (INAUDIBLE). You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer now or have one present -- a lawyer present now or any time during questioning.
If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed to you without cost.
Do you understand each of these rights the way I have explained them to you?
CRAIG: I do.
KARSNIA: Do you wish to talk to us at this time?
CRAIG: I do.
KARSNIA: OK. I just want to start off with a your side of the story, OK?
So...
CRAIG: Well, I go into the bathroom here, as I normally do. I'm a commuter through here.
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: I sit down to go to the bathroom. And you said our feet bumped. I believe they did, because I reached down and scooted over. And the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says "Police."
Now, that's about as far as I can take it. I don't know of anything else. Your foot came toward mine. Mine came towards yours.
Was that natural?
I don't know.
Did we bump? Yes. I think we did. You said so. I don't disagree with that.
KARSNIA: OK. I don't want to get into a pissing match here.
CRAIG: We're not going to.
KARSNIA: Good.
CRAIG: I don't -- I am not gay. I don't do these kinds of things and...
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: That doesn't matter. I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that.
Here's your stuff back, sir. I don't care about sexual preference.
CRAIG: I know you don't. You're out to enforce the law.
KARSNIA: Right.
CRAIG: But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either.
KARSNIA: This isn't entrapment.
CRAIG: All right.
KARSNIA: You -- you're -- you're skipping some parts here.
But what about your hand?
CRAIG: What about it?
I reached down with my foot like this. There was a piece of paper on the floor. I picked it up.
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: What about my hand?
KARSNIA: Well, you're not being truthful with me. I'm kind of disappointed in you, Senator.
I'm really disappointed right now, OK?
I am not -- just so you know, just like everybody...
CRAIG: Yes?
KARSNIA: I treat them with dignity. I try to pull them away from the situation.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: ... Not embarrass them.
CRAIG: I appreciate that.
KARSNIA: And I...
CRAIG: And you did that after -- and I know that (INAUDIBLE).
KARSNIA: I will say, every person I have had so far has told me the truth. We have been respectful to each other and then they have gone on their way. And I've never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me.
CRAIG: I don't want you to take me to jail. And I think (INAUDIBLE).
KARSNIA: I'm not going to take you to jail as long as you be cooperative, but I -- I'm not going to lie. We...
CRAIG: Did my hand come below the divider?
Yes, it did.
KARSNIA: OK. Sir, we deal with people that lie to us every day.
CRAIG: I'm sure you do.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: I'm sure you do too, sir.
CRAIG: And, gentlemen, so do I.
KARSNIA: I'm sure you do. We deal with a lot of people that are very bad people. You're not a bad person.
CRAIG: No, I don't think I am.
KARSNIA: OK. So what I'm telling you is, I don't want to be lied to.
CRAIG: OK.
KARSNIA: OK.
So we'll start over. You're going to get out of here.
You're going to have to pay a fine, and that will be it, OK?
And I don't call media. I don't do any of that type of crap.
CRAIG: Fine.
KARSNIA: OK?
CRAIG: Fine.
KARSNIA: All right, so let's start from the beginning.
You went in the bathroom.
CRAIG: I went in the bathroom.
KARSNIA: And then what did you do when you (INAUDIBLE)?
CRAIG: I stood beside the wall waiting for a stall to open. I got in a stall, sat down. I started to go to the bathroom.
Did our feet come together?
Apparently, they did bump. Well, I won't dispute that.
KARSNIA: OK. When I got out of the stall, I noticed other -- other stalls were open.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: They were at the time. At the time I entered, I -- I -- at the time I entered, I stood and waited.
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: They were all busy, you know?
KARSNIA: Were you looking at me while you were waiting?
I could see your eyes. I saw you playing with your fingers, then look up, play with your fingers and then look up.
CRAIG: Did I glance at your stall?
I was glancing at a stall right beside yours waiting for a fellow to empty it. I saw him stand up and therefore I thought it was going to empty.
KARSNIA: How long do you think you stood outside the stalls?
CRAIG: Oh, a minute or two at the most.
KARSNIA: OK.
And when you went in the stall, then what?
CRAIG: Sat down.
KARSNIA: OK.
Did you do anything with your feet?
CRAIG: Positioned them, I don't know. I don't know at the time. I'm a fairly wide guy.
KARSNIA: I understand.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: I bend to spread my legs...
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: ... When I lower my pants so they won't slide.
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: Did I slide them too close to yours? Did I -- I looked down once. Your foot was close to mine.
KARSNIA: Yes.
CRAIG: Did we bump?
You said so. I don't recall that, but apparently we were close.
KARSNIA: Yes. Well, your foot did touch mine, on my side of the stall.
CRAIG: All right.
KARSNIA: OK?
And then with the hand -- how many times did you put your hand under the stall?
CRAIG: I don't recall. I remember reaching down once -- there was a piece of toilet paper back behind me -- and picking it up.
KARSNIA: OK.
Was your -- was your palm down or up when you were doing that?
CRAIG: I don't recall.
KARSNIA: OK.
I recall your palm being up, OK?
CRAIG: All right.
KARSNIA: When you pick up a piece of paper off the ground, your palm would be down, when you pick something up.
CRAIG: Yes, it probably would be. I recall picking the paper up.
KARSNIA: And I know it's hard to describe here on tape, but actually what I saw was your fingers come underneath the stalls. You were actually touching the bottom of the stall divider.
CRAIG: I don't recall that.
KARSNIA: You don't recall...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: I don't believe I did that. I don't...
KARSNIA: I saw -- I saw...
CRAIG: I don't do those things.
KARSNIA: I saw your left hand and I could see the gold wedding ring when it -- when it went across. I could see that. On your left hand, I could see that.
CRAIG: Wait a moment. My left hand was over here.
KARSNIA: I saw -- there's a...
CRAIG: My right hand was next to you.
KARSNIA: I could tell it with my -- I could tell it was your left hand because your thumb was positioned in a face ward motion. Your thumb was on this side, not on this side.
CRAIG: Well, we can dispute that. I'm not going to fight you in court.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: But I -- I reached down with my right hand to pick up the paper.
KARSNIA: But I'm telling you that I could see that, so I know that's your left hand. Also, I could see a gold ring on this finger. So that it's obvious that it was the left hand.
CRAIG: Well, OK. My left hand was in the direct opposite of the stall from you.
KARSNIA: OK.
You -- you travel through here frequently, correct?
CRAIG: I do, almost weekly.
KARSNIA: Have you been successful in these bathrooms here before?
CRAIG: I go to that bathroom regularly.
KARSNIA: I mean for any type of other activity?
CRAIG: No, absolutely not. I don't seek activity in bathrooms.
KARSNIA: It's embarrassing.
CRAIG: Well, it's embarrassing for both...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: But I'm not going to fight you.
KARSNIA: I know you're not going to fight me. That's not the point. I would respect you. And I still respect you. I don't disrespect you. But I'm disrespected right now.
And I'm not tying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you're sitting here lying to a police officer.
(CROSSTALK) KARSNIA: That is not a (INAUDIBLE) I'm getting from somebody else. I'm...
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: I have been trained in this.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: I have been trained in this and I know what I'm doing.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: And I saw you put your hand under there. And you're going to sit there and...
CRAIG: I admit I put my hand down.
KARSNIA: You put your hand and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.
CRAIG: No. Wait a moment...
KARSNIA: And I'm -- I'm not dumb. You can say, I don't recall...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there.
KARSNIA: It's not that hard for you to reach...
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: It's not that hard. I see it happen every day out here now.
CRAIG: Yes?
OK, you do.
KARSNIA: I'm just -- I'm just...
CRAIG: All right.
KARSNIA: I guess -- I guess I'm going to say I'm just disappointed in you, sir. I just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. But, I mean -- I mean, people vote for you.
CRAIG: Yes, they do.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.
CRAIG: And I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of...
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: ... Respect right now, though.
CRAIG: But I didn't use my left hand.
KARSNIA: I saw...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.
KARSNIA: Was your gold ring on your right hand at any time today?
CRAIG: Of course not. Try to get it off. Look at it.
KARSNIA: OK. Then it was your left hand. I saw it with my own eyes.
CRAIG: All right, you saw something that didn't happen.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KARSNIA: That's embarrassing. Embarrassing.
CRAIG: (INAUDIBLE).
KARSNIA: (INAUDIBLE)?
CRAIG: No.
KARSNIA: All right.
It's embarrassing.
The date is 6/11 of 0-7 and 12:36 (INAUDIBLE).
OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KING: Our panel weighs in, when we come back.
Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Now let's get the views of our panel.
Mark Geragos, you defended a lot of people charged with the...
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have in the past. I mean this is actually something that's not all that uncommon.
KING: Basically, what's lewd about what happened?
What goes on in the bathroom?
GERAGOS: Well, what happened here, basically -- and the tape we listened to was not lewd. Generally what happens is, you know, you've got the stall between the two of them and then...
DR. DREW PINSKY, "LOVELINE" HOST, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR PSYCHIATRY, KECK-USC SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Don't do it, Mark.
GERAGOS: OK.
Look, there's the...
KING: There's a hole.
GERAGOS: There's a hole, right and then, you know, you can jam through the hole and there's anonymous whatever.
KING: But what is lewd about feet touching feet?
GERAGOS: There isn't anything. And we were just saying on the break, if he had hired a lawyer as opposed to trying to do this by himself, a lawyer there in Minnesota, they've got a -- what we would call a diversion program -- they would have just put this thing over for a period of time. He doesn't get arrested again, the case would have been dismissed. That would have been the end of it.
That's why it's is so idiotic that he did (INAUDIBLE)...
KING: But this is what goes on in bathrooms, right?
GERAGOS: Well, yes, there...
KING: (INAUDIBLE)?
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: There is activity that goes on in bathrooms and...
PINSKY: Oh, yes. Sure.
GERAGOS: And, you know, the -- you know, this signal thing...
KING: Tapping.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: ...the tapping and everything else, you know, the law enforcement always has an explanation. I mean it is a little embarrassing, though -- Minnesota must be one of the safest places in the world to live. These cops have got nothing better to do than to hang out in the airport bathrooms.
KING: Stacey Honowitz, would you have prosecuted this? STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, we don't know all the -- all we know is the tape that we're hearing from the officer right now. I don't know if any other signals went on, so I can't tell you whether or not I'd prosecute it.
But to say that the cops in Minnesota have nothing better to do, Mark, you know, this stuff goes on all over.
GERAGOS: It does.
HONOWITZ: And, obviously, there have been complaints far and wide. And that's why they need these cops to go on these stings.
GERAGOS: Can you imagine...
HONOWITZ: These guys are trained...
GERAGOS: What are guys -- guys are going through the metal detectors so they can get to the bathroom so that they can play footsie or do whatever it is they're doing?
PINSKY: Do the thing.
HONOWITZ: Hey, listen, a lot of stuff goes on...
GERAGOS: Stacey, it's...
HONOWITZ: You know, you just -- you don't only have adult anonymous sex in these bathrooms.
GERAGOS: I understand. Just given -- just given what the crime problem is in America, I think we can redeploy our resources.
KING: OK.
Dr. Pinsky, what's the problem that people who do this face?
PINSKY: Well, this is really in the realm of sexual compulsions and sexual addictions. And the fact that he didn't get an attorney really speaks volumes about how his head was working, really grandiosity and denial and sort of dismissing the whole thing as though it didn't happen.
They're so deeply ashamed of their behavior, in effect, they're disgusted by it. They don't want to deal with it. They don't want to -- they don't believe it even happened. They move on as though it didn't and they make very poor choices as a result.
KING: Paul Begala, what's the damage politically?
PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's pretty intense. I mean if you listen to that tape, he doesn't sound like the senator from the State of Idaho, he sounds like the senator from the state of denial. And the cop kind of sounds like probably most ordinary Americans -- not only shocked and repulsed, but really angry about, I suspect, it sounds like he's angry that there seems to be an expectation on the part of Senator Craig of one standard for powerful senators and another standard for everybody else -- like how are you doing this to me. You know, I'm a respectable person, Senator Craig says.
That's the kind of thing I think voters are not going to look very kindly on.
KING: Michelle, should he resign from the Senate?
MICHELLE LAXALT, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think that's a decision he has to make on a very personal level. It's a decision he needs to make with his family and with his own state.
But to Paul's point, I couldn't disagree more. I tend to agree with Mark that when I watch the tape and look at the transcript, I think there is a legitimate difference of opinion from the officer and from the senator. So I don't think it's -- it necessarily suggests someone's in denial because they say I didn't do that, you misconstrued that.
KING: But he pled guilty.
LAXALT: He pled guilty, but if anyone has been in political life or the public eye, I can promise you that when you are up for re- election, whether you're in a family of a public figure, whether you're related to them and there's an election time around the corner, your first reaction -- even to a crosswalk question -- will be I will plead guilty to it to get it to -- for it to go away.
HONOWITZ: Not a case like this.
KING: The other day, though...
HONOWITZ: Not a case like this.
KING: ...you were ready to -- you were ready to come down on him pretty hard.
LAXALT: On Senator Craig?
KING: Yes.
LAXALT: My view the other day was that the Republican Party needs to, first of all, make a determination as to whether or not they're going to return to the values that brought this party to strength, and that is individual responsibility and individual liberties. And when it came to what people do on a personal basis, that is not part of the Republican Party of Barry Goldwater or Paul Laxalt or Bill Buckley.
KING: Right.
That's what you said.
John McArdle, where is it going to go politically?
JOHN MCARDLE, "ROLL CALL" REPORTER BROKE CRAIG SCANDAL: We're hearing that there might be more pressure coming down the pike, maybe even before Congress gets back in session next week. We'll see tomorrow.
On the legal side, we've heard he might try to recant his guilty plea. It would be hard to do. I mean he signed a statement that he engaged in conduct which I knew or should have known tended to arouse alarm and was physical in nature.
There's a pretty high standard of him, if he tried to recant that plea. But he could try to do it to show that he...
GERAGOS: Well, he could...
LAXALT: He's not going to do that.
GERAGOS: Legally he's got a basis. I mean this idea of doing it by mail, I don't think -- I was stunned today to learn he did not go into court. This was all done by mail. And I'm not so sure that that's going to stand or pass muster.
I mean this idea that generally a case is punishable...
KING: Why did Minnesota release this?
GERAGOS: Yes, I...
KING: Why did...
GERAGOS: I don't -- the whole thing is kind of hinky, I mean, not that I don't enjoy, frankly, seeing a Republican who is anti-gay, on one hand, getting caught in a bathroom. I mean there is a certain titillation factor there in just desserts about the hypocrisy.
But from the legal standpoint, I don't know that anybody should be able to plead guilty to something that's punishable by up to 90 days in jail and do it by mail without a lawyer?
KING: Let me get a break.
We'll find out what one...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Hold it. Hold it. Hold it.
We'll find out what one...
GERAGOS: When you have a lawyer.
KING: We'll find out what one politician's wife thinks of Senator Craig's case. She's sure to have an opinion. Her governor came out as gay and quit his job.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) CRAIG: I don't -- I am not gay. I don't do these kinds of things and...
PINSKY: That doesn't matter. I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that.
Here's your stuff back, sir.
I don't care about sexual preference.
CRAIG: I know you don't. You're out to enforce the law.
KARSNIA: Right.
CRAIG: But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either.
KARSNIA: This isn't entrapment.
CRAIG: All right.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're joined now in New York by Dina Matos McGreevey.
She's the estranged wife of former New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey, who resigned in 2004 after admitting an affair with a male employee.
She is author of the book, "Silent Partner."
She should have an interesting insight into this.
What do you make of it, Dina?
DINA MATOS MCGREEVEY, ESTRANGED WIFE OF GAY EX-NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR JIM MCGREEVEY: Well, first of all, I have to say, I feel for his wife and his family. I know how difficult it is to undergo such a painful experience in the public, you know, for the whole world to see and witness. So my heart goes out to his wife and to his entire family.
KING: What do you make of how he's handled it?
MCGREEVEY: Well, you know, I don't think he's handled it properly. I certainly -- we don't know what the truth is. But the fact that he has pleaded guilty certainly raises many questions. But it's what happens when we have a climate where people are not permitted to be who they are because they're afraid of being punished.
KING: Yes.
What do you say to a spouse in a situation like that?
MCGREEVEY: Well, what I'd say to his wife is, you know, first of all, to -- to, you know, be true to herself and do what's right for her and for her family, not what's politically expedient or what, you know, she thinks her husband wants her to do.
She needs to do what she's comfortable with in order to deal with this very painful situation.
KING: Do you have any thoughts as to what he should do?
MCGREEVEY: Well, first of all, whatever the truth is, I think he needs to, you know, tell his wife and certainly tell his family and admit it to, you know, to his constituents and certainly to the rest of the country. He needs to -- to come clean, whatever the truth is, however, you know, however it may play out or -- politically for him and personally, he needs to come clean, because, obviously, his family has already been hurt. It's -- I know what happened to me certainly, you know, destroyed my life as I knew it. There's a lot of pain for his family and for everyone involved.
So he needs to come clean and, you know, set the record straight for his family's sake and, you know, certainly for himself.
KING: Thank you, Dina.
We'll be calling on you again.
Dina Matos McGreevey, the estranged wife of former New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey, the author of the book, "Silent Partner."
A representative for the senator said today -- a spokesperson said that the tape, when asked to comment: "The tape speaks for itself."
Stacey, does it?
HONOWITZ: Yes, I think it does speak for itself. I mean, the bottom line is he did pled guilty and I think any time you're being accused of soliciting sex, you're going to stand up, get yourself a lawyer and say I didn't do it. And you hear in the tape he says, "I'm not going to fight you on that. Did our feet rub? I'm not going to fight you on that."
This is a guy who obviously is very strong-willed. I want to get on my plane, I want to get this over with, I want to go.
This is a guy that if, in fact, none of this took place, would have gotten himself a lawyer and would have fought it in court, not thought just to let it go under the carpet.
KING: Dr. Pinsky, why -- assuming, just for a second, that he is -- they -- that what they said happened, happened.
PINSKY: Yes?
KING: Why do people like this come out so strong against gays?
PINSKY: Well, they're disgusted with their own behavior, frankly. They cannot -- it's very dystonic for them. They can't really reconcile who they think they are with who they actually are. And they will sort of act that out.
In fact, when these guys -- when it comes to light what's happening here -- and often these guys are trauma survivors and they're sort of reenacting their early trauma experiences -- when things come out, they're at very high risk for suicide.
So not only is the family traumatized by this, but this gentleman has got to be very careful. He -- his life may be in jeopardy, even as time goes along here.
KING: Paul, are you surprised that so many Republican -- key Republican figures are calling for him to resign?
BEGALA: Very surprised. First off, I hadn't thought of the psychological risk to him and the risk of suicide that Dr. Pinsky points out. That's an important one. I'm glad he raised that.
But, also, eight or nine major Republicans calling for him to step down when, just a few weeks ago, another family values conservative, Louisiana Senator David Vitter, admitted to being on the call list for the D.C. Madam, by which he means he was using prostitutes. Nobody called for him to step down.
So they -- they're caught in a hypocrisy here.
Why does the guy who's caught in the gay scandal get pushed out of the party and out of all of his committees, the guy who's caught with a straight prostitute is just given a pass?
KING: Michelle, he would appear, whether he resigns or not, to have no legal -- no political future, does he?
LAXALT: I think that the weight of all of this is probably just burying him, whether or not he's innocent, wouldn't that be just an unbelievably awful, awful result, the idea that he is innocent and that the full weight of this has virtually crushed him?
They're -- he doesn't have any political future.
KING: How would you have pled him, Mark?
GERAGOS: Everybody that I've talked to in Minnesota today has said -- all the criminal defense lawyers there -- all you have to do on a case like this, the prosecutor is never going to pursue this. Just go in. The lawyer would go in without him. They'd put it over for a period of six months, nine months, at the longest a year. At that time, they come back and he hasn't been arrested again, the case gets dismissed. That's the end of that. There's no plea of guilty. There's no fine. You maybe pay some court costs and that's the end of that.
That's why it's just so idiotic that he would have done this, would have signed a wavier...
KING: Now, idiotic even if he did it, right? GERAGOS: Yes, even if you did it. If you -- I mean there's no difference between whether you're playing footsie or doing the hand pat or anything else. You have a way to divert yourself and not have to go through this.
KING: We'll be back with more and then we'll meet our new contestants on "Dancing with the Stars." Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I and other leaders of this country, and parents across this country, are disappointed and find conduct like that which is alleged here as being disgraceful.
CRAIG: I did nothing wrong at the Minneapolis airport.
REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R), MICHIGAN: I think the American people expect and deserve better.
CRAIG: I am not gay. I never have been gay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: John McArdle, do you think it was strange that he used the term "you entrapped me"? What was he be entrapped for?
JOHN MCARDLE, ROLL CALL: Well, I think he felt like this was a sting operation, that the police had said, and we were talking about it over the break, that this was an ongoing sting operation that they had set up because there were civil complaints about these sort of actions, these lewd conducts going on in the bathroom.
It is -- the police released some data that from May of this year throughout the summer, they had done 40 similar arrests. There has been 40-some cases of this same sort of thing happening in the airport. And these cases all going through the city attorney at -- in Minneapolis. So, you know, I think he was just trying to figure out exactly what was going on with the police officers.
KING: Stacey, does Florida come down tough on this?
HONOWITZ: Well, we recently, in the last couple of months, have had this whole thing going on in Broward County about anonymous gay sex in bathrooms, on the beach, in public, things, because there have been so many complaints and there are so many complaints.
And that's why I was trying to explain early on, it is important. It might not sound like the most important crime in the world, but things go on in these bathrooms. They solicit young boys -- not him, but young boys are solicited and that's why it's important for the police officers to be in there because of all the complaints. So yes, we get a lot of it.
KING: Why do you smile, Mark? GERAGOS: Well, you know, it's just, in the hierarchy of serious things that people are worried about, I don't think that there's a whole lot of people who are saying, I'm going to go home and lock my doors at night because there's somebody who is playing footsie in the Minneapolis Airport. I just think you can deploy your resources in a lot better ways. And...
KING: It's not the most nice of things, though, is it?
GERAGOS: Nobody denies that. And I mean, you want to use the restroom...
KING: Would you like it if you were in the bathroom and so people are doing it?
GERAGOS: ... and some cop -- I would be more worried about the cop playing footsie with me. I mean, you know, a little worried about that. But then again, the worst part of this whole story, as I told you, is his statement that he was picking toilet paper up off the floor. That's the one that gives me the most pause. I don't know anybody who picks up toilet paper off an airport floor.
KING: All right. What do you make of the story, Dr. Pinsky?
PINSKY: You know, interestingly, the term "gay" is being talked around, as we've talked about a couple of nights ago. There's another category, which is men that have sex with men, which includes the gay population. But people don't have to identify as gay to be one of these folks who engage in this kind of behavior. There are bisexual, there are heterosexual men that do this.
And in fact, the heterosexual ones tend to be the ones that are more isolating, more provocative with this behavior, more apt to do this kind of thing.
KING: Why would a heterosexual man do this?
PINSKY: Well, it's heterosexual -- identifying as heterosexual, maybe confused about a sexual orientation or maybe a sex addict and just acting out in various ways. But the fact is, the provocative, evocative environment, the anonymity, the isolation, all that is typical of people who have real trouble with their sexuality, not just somebody who is gay and is OK with that sexuality.
KING: Paul, what's the effect on Governor Romney?
PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think whoever the presidential candidate is, and Romney was, of course...
KING: Well, he was...
BEGALA: Larry Craig was Romney's state chairman in Idaho for about five minutes until this arrest came out. What my hope is and my belief is that finally the Republicans will stop this stuff they've picked up in the last few years of pretending that somehow they are morally superior to the rest of us. Somehow they are the party of family values.
The truth is, we're all sinners. We all fall short of the glory of God. The question is whether we're going to be hypocrites about it. And I've got to tell you, Larry, I'm just real tired as a Democrat of being lectured about moral values by the likes of Larry Craig and some of the rest of this crowd.
You know, the show is over, I'm going home to my wife who I met 26 years ago when I was a teenager. I don't need Larry Craig being morally superior to me.
KING: Michelle, how does your father, the distinguished former senator from Nevada, Paul Laxalt, feel about all this?
MICHELLE LAXALT, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think he feels the way he did when he began his career decades ago and that is that personal, private issues should remain personal, private issues.
I think what is really important here, though, for Republican leadership, keying off what Paul indicated, is, if the Republican Party had made a determination that if you are gay, you are not welcome, if you are gay and you are working on a staff of a Republican United States senator or a member of Congress, tender your resignation.
If you are gay and you're thinking about running for the United States Senate or running for the U.S. Congress, do not bother to apply. So I think the Republicans need to make a determination as to why they are making the decisions they are making and whether or not they are doing so on the basis of judging homosexuality, which I happen to believe is hardwired.
MCARDLE: And, Larry, I don't know if they're judging one way or the other, but from what we're hearing, one of the reasons that they're bringing this ethics investigation and one of the things we didn't talk about and that's not in the tape is that when the senator first went in, he pulled out his Senate business card and said -- put it on the table and said, what do you think about that? And there's some concern about him using his office inappropriately.
KING: Thank you all very much. Geragos, Honowitz, Begala, Laxalt, Pinsky, and McArdle -- sounds like a law firm. I haven't heard the last of this.
Before we got to break, take a look at this week's new podcast. You can download Jungle Jack Hanna and of his animals at cnn.com/larryking. Or on iTunes. Jack will show you everything from monkeys to snakes. He brought the whole zoo. It's a podcast of furry fun at cnn.com/larryking.
And up next, we go from playing footsie, as Mark Geragos puts it, to fancy footwork. Meet some of the new stars of "Dancing with the Stars," next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!": So I got some bad news today. For the fifth time in a row I was not selected to compete on "Dancing with the Stars."
(LAUGHTER)
KIMMEL: They told me I could be on "Fat March."
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Welcome back. Primetime's best-kept secret is not a secret anymore. Today ABC has released its list of high-stepping competitors for the upcoming season of "Dancing with the Stars." Three of them join us tonight here in Los Angeles. Jane Seymour, the actress best known for her role in "Dr. Quinn: Medicine Woman." Jennie Garth, the former star of "Beverly Hills: 90210," and ABC's "What I Like about You" and a multitude of other television shows.
And in Provo, Utah, where she is winding up her -- recording her new Christmas album, is Marie Osmond, member of the legendary Osmond family, TV variety and talk show host, co-founder of the Children's Miracle Network, with a line of collector's dolls which she sells online in QVC. And she is in her own recording studio there in Provo.
Before we start with anything else, Jane, I know you worked with Owen Wilson in the wedding movie which was hysterical, by the way. Let's take a look at a clip of that and then ask you one quick question about it. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THE WEDDING CRASHERS")
JANE SEYMOUR, ACTOR: Let's see how you do with somebody your own age.
OWEN WILSON, ACTOR: I think I'm up to the challenge. All right. Will you save me a dance for later?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Maybe.
WILSON: OK.
So how long you and the secretary been married?
SEYMOUR: Thirty years next April.
WILSON: That's beautiful.
SEYMOUR: Only faithful for two of them. Enjoy the party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: You lusty woman you. (LAUGHTER)
KING: That was a wild scene. What do you make of this? Are you surprised?
SEYMOUR: I'm really saddened by it. I knew that he had an ongoing issue but I didn't know it was this serious. And I'm really sad, but I'm hoping that this will be the thing that turns it all around.
KING: Did any of the depression issue emerge while working?
SEYMOUR: No, absolutely not. He was absolutely divine. I mean, the funniest guy on the planet, the nicest guy. And I mean, completely sober when I worked with him.
KING: All right. Jennie, why are you "Dancing with the Stars"?
JENNIE GARTH, ACTOR: I have no idea.
KING: You don't know why you took this?
GARTH: No, I'm joking. It's a really fun show. It's one of my favorite shows to watch with my family. So I'm just so excited to get to learn how to dance with a professional dance partner.
KING: Are you a dancer?
GARTH: No. I danced when I was younger, I think the same as Jane, the typical ballet, tap, jazz sort of stuff. But nothing serious, definitely nothing professional.
KING: Are you a little -- not frightened, but apprehensive about the competitive nature of this?
GARTH: No, frightened might be the right word. It's really serious, it's very competitive. I haven't even seen really that aspect, that side of it yet, but it's really challenging. It's physically and emotionally and psychically challenging. It is a big undertaking.
KING: Marie, why did you take it?
MARIE OSMOND, SINGER & TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I figure, you know, at mid-life crisis, there are worse things I could take up as a hobby. So, you know what, honestly, it just was so much fun to go in there. I went in for the interview, and I love a good challenge, Larry. You know that. I mean, I have -- I guess it's an Osmond thing, I don't know.
But I have done so many different kinds of things. Never dancing. And so it just seemed like it would be a lot of fun. I was in getting some shoes today and a lady came up to me who was like, I'd say around 50ish, and she said, you know, you're a single mom. You're single now. She said, I think it's great because you tell it all. I made a statement on the news -- the local news here, that, you know, just because you're in your mid-life doesn't mean you stop life, you know? And I said, so you know, all you single moms out there, get out and go dancing and have fun and whatever. And so I'm doing it for all the single ladies out there.
KING: We'll ask Jane Seymour why she took it after the break. But first, let's check in with Soledad O'Brien in New York. She is going to host "AC 360" at the top of the hour.
What's up, Soledad?
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Larry. Tonight on "360," the "Tale of the Tape" is what we're calling it. We're going to have much more on Senator Larry Craig's police interview so you can hear how he explains his kind of bizarre actions to that cop who busted him in the Minneapolis Airport bathroom. And, of course, we want to hear what everybody thinks. So our legal panel of experts and political experts, too, going to be taking your e-mails and your calls.
Also tonight we've got an exclusive interview with the leader in exile that the United States government calls a terrorist -- Larry.
KING: That's Soledad O'Brien hosting for Anderson Cooper at "AC 360," 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific. You know, you don't have to wait until the season premiere to cast your first vote for one of the "Dancing" stars. You can do it now on our Web page, a quick vote at cnn.com/larryking. Vote for your favorite.
Now get this. Right now Marie Osmond is in the lead. But there is still time to vote for your favorite dancing celebrity, cnn.com/larryking. We'll see how Jane takes that. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're with the newest contestants of "Dancing with the Stars," and easy to say the prettiest. Is it true you didn't want to do it, Jane?
SEYMOUR: Oh, God, I turned it down so many times. I had so many reasons not to do it.
KING: Like?
SEYMOUR: Like -- oh, gosh. Well, the back surgery I had four years ago. You know, I have lower back problems, issues. I'm not a dancer. I haven't taken a ballet class since was 16 and I quit then because I had knee problems. And then, you know, to top it off, my mom is very ill. She's in England.
She had a stroke in January and she can't really talk or move, and I wasn't really comfortable with the idea of not being able to go back and see her.
KING: Why did you finally do it? SEYMOUR: Because it's my mother's favorite show ever and we put the phone next to her ear in England, and I said, mom, I've been asked to do this. And she hadn't spoken and she couldn't really talk and she had stopped sort of eating and drinking pretty much and she went, what, what, what, what? Which is the best she could do for talking.
And my sister said, oh my God, mommy, what's happening? Mom is really excited. What did you say? And I told her. And then I said, well, I hope you'll be proud of me, mommy. I'm going to do this for you, and she said, yes. And that was it. That just put me away. I went, OK. That's all right.
KING: You've been dancing already, Jennie, with your partner?
GARTH: Yes, yes. I have a new partner to the show -- a new dancer to the show this year, and he is wonderful. His name is Derek Hough. He...
KING: And how often do you work?
GARTH: We have been training three hours a day every day.
KING: And that's just training, right?
GARTH: That's just the beginning. We haven't even started on the routine. That's just trying to get me to loosen up my hips.
KING: Does he lead well?
GARTH: He's wonderful.
KING: Have you been training, Marie?
OSMOND: Yes. I want to know how long they've been training because I started today.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: They got a head start. They got a week, right?
GARTH: We started Monday.
SEYMOUR: Yes. I started Monday as well.
OSMOND: You did? Oh, man.
SEYMOUR: And now I get four days off.
(LAUGHTER)
OSMOND: I think it's because I'm in Utah. Would that be the reason?
(LAUGHTER)
GARTH: Maybe. KING: That could be it.
OSMOND: By the way, I want you to know -- i want you to know, Jane, that, first of all, you know that a woman hasn't won this show since it started five years ago. This is the fifth season, right? Yes. And so I think it's really cool that a woman should win this year. But I want you to know that with all the votes, Donnie is going to vote for you.
(LAUGHTER)
OSMOND: Because you know he loves you.
SEYMOUR: I was wondering about how he was going to split that vote. Well, I love him, too.
OSMOND: Oh, trust me, there will be no split. It's all going to you, babe.
SEYMOUR: I love you, so I would want to vote for you, too.
KING: Did they send your male dancer to Provo, Marie?
OSMOND: Yes, we met yesterday. And he's wonderful. It's Jonathan Roberts, who is fantastic. I am so excited to have him. But, yes, he -- we did the first day where he said, you know, kick, let me see what you can do because, honestly, you know, we had dancers around us and we fudged. And so today was the first day for the routine and he said, OK, we'll start with you put your left hand in, you put -- no, I'm kidding. It was so bad. Terrible.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: How are you doing, Jane, so far?
SEYMOUR: Well, I'm dancing with this amazing dancer, Tony...
KING: Tony!
SEYMOUR: Yes, Tony! I got Tony. And I told Tony, I said, OK, Tony, here's the issue. I've got this, I've got this, I've got this, I've got this. I said, but I have absolute heart. I want to do this. I want to do this for fun. This is just -- is my gift to me that I'm doing this. And I said I'm really going to work hard but I have to tell you, those British hips, you know, and moving them around, that samba thing, I mean, it's like, all night I'm in bed, I'm trying to move those hips. It's insane.
KING: What's your guy's name, Jennie?
GARTH: Derek Hough.
KING: Derek?
GARTH: Derek.
KING: Derek, Tony and Jon, right?
GARTH: Yes.
SEYMOUR: Yes.
KING: How good is Derek?
GARTH: He's pretty good. I don't know, and he's very young. He's 22.
KING: Oh, robbing the cradle.
(LAUGHTER)
SEYMOUR: I have a grownup. Mine's 35. But, you know, I was worried. I thought, you know, if they put me with a 17-year-old guy, I'd be in a lot of trouble, wouldn't I?
KING: Who are you worried the most about in the competition, Jennie?
GARTH: I don't know. I think that Wayne Newton has an amazing fan base and people are going to love just seeing him.
KING: And he dances, right?
GARTH: Oh, yes. He has got some moves.
SEYMOUR: Well, I think, of course present company, I mean -- but I'd be happy if we all won. I think Melanie is supposed to be a really good dancer and she happens to have a huge fan base.
KING: (INAUDIBLE) she comes in ahead then.
SEYMOUR: Well, I would think so.
KING: If she has been a dancer.
GARTH: She has got a lot of experience, yes.
KING: Yes. A lot of experience.
GARTH: How do you feel about being in the lead so far in the vote? Marie, you're in the lead.
OSMOND: Well, I'm going to vote for the Abercrombie & -- I'm in the lead?
(LAUGHTER)
KING: Yes, you didn't hear that? We've started out a little test vote here. You're in the lead.
(LAUGHTER)
SEYMOUR: You're going to win, Marie. Because you're the most lovable person in America.
OSMOND: No, it's only because they're all family members that voted.
(LAUHGTER)
KING: That's funny.
SEYMOUR: I should have more than six children, then. You won that.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: OK. We're going to take a break and come back.
OSMOND: Yes, but all my kids are voting for Jennie, so there.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments. And by the way, that's amazing that they said Jon the dancer up to Provo because in Provo they dance until 6:30, 7:00 at night. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: OK. Here are the up-to-the-minute results of our "LARRY KING LIVE" quick vote, of all 12 dancers on the season of "Dancing with the Stars." Here is how they stack up. Marie is first with 24 percent, Jane is second with 18 percent, Jennie Garth is third with 14 percent; and they lead everybody else. Comment?
SEYMOUR: I think it helps to be on "LARRY KING."
KING: Comment?
(CROSSTALK)
OSMOND: Hey, I've got it. Hey, ladies -- yes, I know, ladies, let's the three of us dance together.
GARTH: Together.
SEYMOUR: There you go.
GARTH: Yes, and we'll win for the women.
OSMOND: Absolutely.
KING: What do you make of sports team owner Mark Cuban?
SEYMOUR: I think it's very exciting. I think anything that brings more people in to watching the show is great. I mean, you know, my husband, James Keach, I mean, he's totally a sports addict, and he watches this when he sees the sports people there. In fact, he's most excited about Mark Cuban.
KING: How do you think Wayne Newton will do, Marie?
OSMOND: Well, he's Mr. Entertainer. I mean, you know, he has been around for -- he'll -- what his feet won't do, boy, I'll tell you, his face will do.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: That's right.
OSMOND: Because he is amazing. He is, you know, a pro all the way.
KING: And his hips, who do you fear the most, Jennie, is it Melanie? By fear, I mean, you know.
GARTH: Right. I think that she is probably very experienced, performing in front of a lot of people and she is probably a great dancer. So I would say Scary Spice.
KING: When was the last time you went out dancing?
SEYMOUR: Oh, my gosh. With my daughters, with my kids.
KING: Dance with your kids?
SEYMOUR: Well, you know, I went to a club, to the Cabana Club (ph) here in L.A. And I realized that everyone was about a third of my age and then I left quickly.
KING: Jennie, when did you go dancing?
GARTH: You know what, my husband and I love to dance. We go out dancing sometimes.
KING: You do?
GARTH: Yes, we like to try to stay young even though we have three kids. So we've danced recently.
KING: Marie, didn't you dance with the Osmonds on stage?
OSMOND: Well, you can't call that dancing.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: What is it?
OSMOND: It's called moving very slowly. No, I mean, I know how to fake stuff. Well, it's probably that '70s stuff that really required pointing your finger a lot.
(LAUGHTER)
OSMOND: I don't know. I can't see.
KING: Well, you're dancing. SEYMOUR: You're clicking your fingers.
KING: You're clicking your fingers and you're moving. And...
(CROSSTALK)
GARTH: You look good.
OSMOND: No, no. You have to realize that was, what, 30 years ago?
KING: Well, good luck to all of you, Jane Seymour, Jennie Garth, and Marie Osmond, three of the 12 new contestants on "Dancing with Stars," which goes on the air, when?
SEYMOUR: September 24th.
KING: We'll see them all then.
Don't forget to check out our Web site, cnn.com/larryking. You can download our newest podcast, Jack Hanna and his wild animals. Or submit Web cam questions or e-mail to our upcoming guests. More importantly, you can cast a vote for your favorite star of the upcoming season of "Dancing with the Stars." You can keep on voting. Just go to cnn.com/larryking.
Now, let's slash to New York, "AC 360" and Soledad O'Brien -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: All right. Larry, thank you.
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