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Nancy Grace
Police Release Craig Arrest Recording
Aired August 30, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A U.S. senator pleads guilty to soliciting sex in a bathroom, but now after the guilty plea, he says he didn`t do it. Tonight, the full police arrest recording -- that`s right, on tape -- that tape detailing an angry exchange between Senator Craig and the undercover cop Craig is accused of soliciting for sex.
What exactly happened in that Minnesota airport bathroom? After accusing the cop of soliciting him, Senator Craig denies it all on tape. Then why did he plead guilty under oath? Tonight, Congress brings down the hammer with demands that Craig step down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Late today, Minneapolis police releasing a of the arrest of Idaho senator Larry Craig. He, of course, is accused of soliciting sex from a male cop at the airport bathroom in June. On that tape, he is heard denying the accusation and arguing with the arresting officer about what actually happened. Now, the officer says Craig was actually signaling that he was interested in sexual contact. Take a listen to the tape.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEN. LARRY CRAIG (R), IDAHO: I sit down to go to the bathroom. And you said our feet bumped. I believe they did because I reached down and scooted over. And the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says "Police."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding a young mom of three who vanishes into thin air, Emerson, New Jersey, Liza Murphy last seen at her suburban home, then never heard from again, no credit card use, no cell phone calls, allegedly gone with just the clothes on her back. Friends and family say no way would she leave her three little children behind.
Headlines tonight: After a massive search at a local reservoir, police go back to square one, reinventing, reinterviewing and retracing Murphy`s steps that day, police still hoping to interview Murphy`s husband, who throws himself into high-speed traffic after his wife goes missing. Police and search dogs back at the Murphy home today. And alleged sightings and tips place the mom of three as far away as Chicago. Tonight: Where is Liza Murphy?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police in New Jersey have suspended the search now for Liza Murphy, a mother of three who mysteriously disappeared more than a week ago. This case is baffling police (INAUDIBLE) have no new leads. Days after her disappearance, Murphy`s husband tried to kill himself by jumping in front of a car, but his lawyer insists that was because his client was so upset about her disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should point out one important fact, that he never actually tried to commit suicide -- this is the husband now -- he never tried to commit suicide until he realized the police were searching his house. So you have to wonder about the timing in that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First: Caught on tape, U.S. senator Larry Craig on tape during a bathroom arrest for soliciting sex. After pleading guilty, Craig now says Lady Justice tricked him, that he didn`t do it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KARSNIA: Have you been successful in these bathrooms here before?
CRAIG: I go to that bathroom regularly.
KARSNIA: I mean for any type of other activities.
CRAIG: No. Absolutely not. I don`t seek activity in bathrooms.
KARSNIA: It`s embarrassing.
CRAIG: Well, it`s embarrassing for both -- I`m not going to fight you!
KARSNIA: I know you`re not going to fight me, but that`s not the point. I would respect you -- and I still respect you. I don`t disrespect you. But I`m disrespected right now. And I`m not tying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you`re sitting here lying to a police officer.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: It`s not (INAUDIBLE) I`m getting from somebody else. I`m...
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: I am trained in this and I know what I am doing. And I saw you put your hand under there, and you`re going to sit there and...
CRAIG: I admit I put my hand down.
KARSNIA: You put your hand and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.
CRAIG: No. Wait a moment!
KARSNIA: And I -- I`m not dumb. You can say I don`t recall...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there.
KARSNIA: It`s not that hard for me to reach. (INAUDIBLE) It`s not that hard. I see it happen everyday out here now.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: I just -- I just -- I guess -- I guess I`m going to say I`m just disappointed in you sir. I just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean -- I mean, people vote for you!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Now the senator says he wasn`t guilty, even though he took a plea under oath. And today, stunning audiotapes of what went down in that Minnesota airport bathroom released.
Out to Mike Butts, political reporter with "The Idaho Press-Tribune." Mike, thank you for being with us. Explain why the tapes were released.
MIKE BUTTS, "IDAHO PRESS-TRIBUNE": Why the tape was released?
GRACE: Yes.
BUTTS: Yes, well, they -- I`m certain it was a media organization or a news organization that probably requested it, and I would assume that they were -- that they didn`t have a choice, that that`s considered public information and they had to give it up.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, Court TV news correspondent, aren`t the tapes part of the police investigation?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: They are part of the police investigation, but apparently, a judge did not seal them or someone denoted them to be public in nature, and thus they were released to all of us.
GRACE: To Jonathan Martin, senior political reporter with Politico.com. Jonathan, thank you for being with us. The reality is, without a request for evidence to be sealed, it is public record.
JONATHAN MARTIN, POLITICO.COM: Right. Well, thanks for having me, Nancy. The fact is he pleaded guilty to a crime, and when you are a U.S. senator and you plead guilty to a crime, you are in a precarious political position, which is where he finds himself today, fighting for his life and facing increasing calls from colleagues to step down.
GRACE: We have the entire audiotape for you to listen to. You judge for yourself. Was the senator tricked by Lady Justice into entering a guilty plea under oath? Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
Am I going to have to fight you in court?
SGT. DAVE KARSNIA, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE: No. No. I`m not going to go to court unless you want me there.
CRAIG: Because I don`t want to be in court, either.
KARSNIA: OK. I don`t, either. (INAUDIBLE) Here`s the way it works. You`ll -- you`ll be released today, OK?
CRAIG: OK.
KARSNIA: All right. I know I can bring you to jail, but that`s not my goal here, OK?
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: ... don`t do that. You...
KARSNIA: I`m not going to bring you in.
CRAIG: You solicited me.
KARSNIA: OK. We`re going to get -- we`re going to get into that. (INAUDIBLE)
CRAIG: OK.
KARSNIA: But there`s the -- there there`s two ways. Yes, you can -- you can -- you can go to court and you can plead guilty.
CRAIG: Yes.
KARSNIA: There`ll be a fine. You won`t have to explain anything (INAUDIBLE)
CRAIG: OK.
KARSNIA: And you`ll pay a fine. You`ll (INAUDIBLE) Done. Or if you want to plead not guilty, you -- you know, and I can`t make these decisions for you.
CRAIG: No, no. Just tell me where I am because...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: ... I need to make this flight.
KARSNIA: OK. OK. And then I go to -- you and I go (INAUDIBLE) then I would have to come to court and end up testifying, right? So those are the two things, OK? Did I explain that part?
CRAIG: Yes.
KARSNIA: OK. I`m just going to read you your rights real quick, OK? (INAUDIBLE) it on?
CRAIG: Yes.
KARSNIA: OK. The date is 6/11/07 at 1228 hours. Mr. Craig?
CRAIG: Yes?
KARSNIA: All right. (INAUDIBLE) You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer now or have present -- a lawyer present now or anytime during questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed to you without cost. Do you understand each of these rights as I explained them to you?
CRAIG: I do.
KARSNIA: Do you wish to talk to us at this time?
CRAIG: I do.
KARSNIA: OK. I just want to start off with your side of the story, OK? So...
CRAIG: Well, I go into the bathroom here, as I normally do. I`m a commuter, too, here.
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: I sit down to go to the bathroom. And you said our feet bumped. I believe they did because I reached down and scooted over. And the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says "Police." Now, that`s about as far as I can take it. I don`t know of anything else. Your foot came toward mine, mine came toward yours. Was that natural? I don`t know. Did we bump? Yes, I think we did. You said so, and I don`t disagree with that.
KARSNIA: OK. I don`t want to get into a pissing match here.
CRAIG: We`re not going to.
KARSNIA: Good.
CRAIG: I don`t -- I am not gay. I don`t do these kinds of things and...
KARSNIA: It doesn`t matter. I don`t care about sexual preference or anything like that. Here`s your stuff back, sir. I don`t care about sexual preference.
CRAIG: I know you don`t. You`re out to enforce the law.
KARSNIA: Right.
CRAIG: But you shouldn`t be out to entrap people, either.
KARSNIA: This isn`t entrapment.
CRAIG: All right.
KARSNIA: You`re skipping some parts here, but what about your hand?
CRAIG: What about it? I reached down, my foot like this. There was a piece of paper on the floor. I picked it up.
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: What about my hand?
KARSNIA: Well, you`re not being truthful with me. I`m kind of disappointed in you, Senator. I`m real disappointed right now, OK? I`m not -- just so you know, just like everybody...
CRAIG: Yes?
KARSNIA: ... I treat with dignity. I try to pull them away from the situation and not embarrass them.
CRAIG: I appreciate that.
KARSNIA: And I...
CRAIG: You did that after (INAUDIBLE) the stall.
KARSNIA: I will say, every person I`ve had so far has told me the truth. We`ve been respectful to each other, and then they`ve gone on their way. And I`ve never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody`s been truthful to me.
CRAIG: I don`t want you to take me to jail, and I think...
KARSNIA: I`m not going to take you to jail as long as your cooperative, but I`m not going to lie. We...
CRAIG: Did my hand come below the divider? Yes, it did.
KARSNIA: OK, sir. We deal with people that lie to us everyday.
CRAIG: I`m sure you do.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: I`m sure you do, too, sir.
CRAIG: (INAUDIBLE) so do I.
KARSNIA: I`m sure you do. We deal with a lot of people that are very bad people. You`re not a bad person.
CRAIG: No, I don`t think I am.
KARSNIA: OK. So what I`m telling you is I don`t want to be lied to.
CRAIG: OK.
KARSNIA: OK? So we`ll start over. You`re going to get out of here. You`re going to have to pay a fine, and that`ll be it, OK? And I don`t call media. I don`t do any of that type of crap.
CRAIG: Fine.
KARSNIA: OK?
CRAIG: Fine.
KARSNIA: All right. So let`s start from the beginning. You went in the bathroom?
CRAIG: I went in the bathroom.
KARSNIA: And what did you do when you...
CRAIG: I stood beside the wall, waiting for a stall to open. I got in the stall, sat down, and I started to go to the bathroom. Did our feet come together? Apparently, they did bump. Well, I won`t dispute that.
KARSNIA: OK. When I got out of the stall, I noticed other -- other stalls were open.
CRAIG: They were at the time. At the time I entered, I -- at the time I entered, I stood and waited.
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: They were all busy, you know?
KARSNIA: Were you (INAUDIBLE) out here while you were waiting? I could see your eyes. I saw you playing with your fingers, then look up, play with your fingers, then look up.
CRAIG: Did I glance at your stall? I was glancing at a stall right beside yours, waiting for a fellow to empty it. I saw him stand up, and therefore I thought it was going to empty.
KARSNIA: How long do you think you stood outside the stalls?
CRAIG: Oh, a minute or two at the most.
KARSNIA: OK. Then you went in the stalls. Then what?
CRAIG: Sat down.
KARSNIA: OK. Did you do anything with your feet?
CRAIG: Positioned them. I don`t know. I don`t know at the time. I`m a fairly wide guy...
KARSNIA: I understand.
CRAIG: ... and I had to spread my legs...
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: ... when I lower my pants so they won`t slide.
KARSNIA: OK.
CRAIG: Did I slide them too close to yours? Did I -- I looked down once, your foot was close to mine.
KARSNIA: Yes.
CRAIG: Did we bump? You said so. I don`t recall that, but apparently, we were close.
KARSNIA: Yes. Well, your foot did touch mine on my side of the stall.
CRAIG: All right.
KARSNIA: OK? And then with the hand. How many times did you put your hand under the stall?
CRAIG: I don`t recall. I remember reaching down once, there was a piece of toilet paper back behind me, and picking it up.
KARSNIA: OK. Was your -- was your palm down or up when you were doing that?
CRAIG: I don`t recall.
KARSNIA: OK. I recall your palm being up, OK?
CRAIG: All right.
KARSNIA: When you pick up a piece of paper off the ground, your palm would be down, when you pick something up.
CRAIG: Yes, probably would be. I recall picking the paper up.
KARSNIA: And I know it`s hard to describe here on tape, but actually, what I saw was your fingers come underneath the stalls. You`re actually touching the bottom of the stall divider.
CRAIG: I don`t recall that.
KARSNIA: You don`t recall
CRAIG: I don`t believe I did that. I don`t...
KARSNIA: I saw -- I saw...
CRAIG: I don`t do those things.
KARSNIA: I saw your left hand, and I could see the gold wedding ring when it -- when it went across. I could see that. On your left hand, I could see that.
CRAIG: Wait a moment. My left hand was over here.
KARSNIA: I saw -- there`s a...
CRAIG: My right hand was next to you.
KARSNIA: I could tell it was my -- I could tell it was your left hand because your thumb was positioned in a faceward (ph) motion. Your thumb was on this side, not on this side.
CRAIG: Well, we can dispute that. I`m not going to fight you in court. And I -- I reached down with my right hand to pick up the paper.
KARSNIA: What I`m telling you is I could see that, so I know it was your left hand. Also, I could see a gold ring on this finger, so that`s obvious it was the left hand.
CRAIG: Well, OK. My left hand was in the direct opposite of the stall from you.
KARSNIA: OK. You -- you travel through here frequently, correct?
CRAIG: I do. Almost weekly.
KARSNIA: Have you been successful in these bathrooms here before?
CRAIG: I go to that bathroom regularly.
KARSNIA: I mean for any type of other activities.
CRAIG: No. Absolutely not. I don`t seek activity in bathrooms.
KARSNIA: It`s embarrassing.
CRAIG: Well, it`s embarrassing for both -- I`m not going to fight you!
KARSNIA: I know you`re not going to fight me, but that`s not the point. I would respect you -- and I still respect you. I don`t disrespect you. But I`m disrespected right now. And I`m not tying to act that I have all kinds of power or anything, but you`re sitting here lying to a police officer.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: It`s not (INAUDIBLE) I`m getting from somebody else. I`m...
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: I am trained in this and I know what I am doing. And I saw you put your hand under there, and you`re going to sit there and...
CRAIG: I admit I put my hand down.
KARSNIA: You put your hand and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.
CRAIG: No. Wait a moment!
KARSNIA: And I -- I`m not dumb. You can say, I don`t recall...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there.
KARSNIA: It`s not that hard for me to reach. (INAUDIBLE) It`s not that hard. I see it happen everyday out here now.
(CROSSTALK)
KARSNIA: I just -- I just -- I guess -- I guess I`m going to say I`m just disappointed in you sir. I just really am. I expect this from the guys that we get out of the hood. I mean -- I mean, people vote for you!
CRAIG: Yes, they do. (INAUDIBLE)
KARSNIA: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.
CRAIG: I`m a respectable person, and I don`t do these kinds of...
KARSNIA: Where`s your respect right now, though?
CRAIG: But I didn`t use my left hand.
KARSNIA: I thought that you...
CRAIG: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.
KARSNIA: Was your gold ring on your right hand at any time today?
CRAIG: Of course not. Try to get it off. Look at it.
KARSNIA: OK, then it was your left hand. I saw it with my own eyes.
CRAIG: All right. You saw something that didn`t happen.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: After a guilty plea under oath, the senator now says, I didn`t do it. In fact, if you listen to this audiotape of what happened there in the Minnesota airport bathroom, the senator seemed to be accusing the undercover cop of soliciting him for sex.
To Jean Casarez. You know, if you listen to the whole thing, you hear all about these foot signals, these hand signals. You have researched this. What can you tell us?
CASAREZ: Let me tell you, it`s quite an education, generally speaking, to learn about soliciting sex in public restrooms. The signals are, they say, number one, once you`re in your stall, seated on the toilet, tapping your foot and then moving your foot over to touch the foot of the person in the other stall, and then with your hand, to run with your palm up the hand under the divider between the two stalls, touching the divider as you go. That, they say, are signs that you want sex from the person next to you.
GRACE: What about the particular layout of this bathroom?
CASAREZ: This bathroom -- the affidavit of the police officer says that he was sitting on the toilet in his stall. There was someone to his right, someone to his left. He saw a gray-haired man standing outside, peering through that little crack, staring at him. when the person to the officer`s left left the stall, that`s when he says the gray-haired man went in there and sat on the toilet. That, he says, was the senator.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, has busted plenty of cases very similar to this. You know, Mike Brooks, I`ve tried a lot of felonies, taken a lot of felony guilty pleas, but I didn`t understand the unspoken language of soliciting sex in a bathroom.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s exactly the way it goes, just as Jean described it. And this was a sergeant. This was a supervisor with the airport police, Nancy. And this airport -- if he had to, you know, wait, he could have gone 100 feet down the concourse to another men`s room.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Becky in California. Hi, Becky.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you. I was wondering, do you think it`s possible the senator may try to withdraw his plea? And can he withdraw his plea?
GRACE: Oh, Becky, Becky, Becky! I was just talking about that last night. Let`s unleash the lawyers and answer Becky`s question. Joining us veteran trial lawyer, my former co-anchor at Court TV, Rikki Klieman, and Mickey Sherman, a veteran trial lawyer himself.
To Rikki Klieman. Oh, please! Let the judge, ``sua sponte,`` on his or her own, take back that guilty plea. Let`s go to trial, Rikki. Is it possible?
RIKKI KLIEMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Probably not at all, Nancy. The difficulty is that this is not only not just some person from the hood, as the cop said, this is a senator. It`s the plea agreement itself that he mailed in -- which I`ve never seen before. That is, you don`t have to go to court, you can just mail it in. But when you look at what he said, he certainly understood all of his rights.
GRACE: He certainly did, but now he wants a do-over, Mickey Sherman. He wants a do-over.
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s going to make it a three-week horrible story instead of a two-week horrible story. I mean, this guy is a moron. There`s no question about it. And I`m not crazy about his politics, but do we really need to run him through the criminal justice system?
GRACE: That`s what he wants, Mickey Sherman and Rikki Klieman. He wants a do-over. And I say, you shall have it!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CRAIG: Yes, they do. (INAUDIBLE)
KARSNIA: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.
CRAIG: And I`m a respectable person, and I don`t do these kinds of...
KARSNIA: Where`s your respect right now, though?
CRAIG: But I didn`t use my left hand.
KARSNIA: I thought that you...
CRAIG: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.
KARSNIA: Was your gold ring on your right hand at any time today?
CRAIG: Of course not. Try to get it off. Look at it.
KARSNIA: OK, then it was your left hand. I saw it with my own eyes.
CRAIG: All right. You saw something that didn`t happen.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: But now after a plea under oath, Senator Craig says Lady Justice tricked him, that he is not guilty. And if I were this judge that took this plea, I would give him what he wanted and let him go to trial.
Out to the lines. Patty in Rhode Island. Hi, Patty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First, I`d like to say my friend Michael and I want to nominate you for the next attorney general of these United States.
GRACE: Whoo! OK. That would be like a bunch of wet cats in a barrel, but thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fun to watch. Anyway, I would like to -- what is his status as a United States senator elected, a man who makes laws? When you break them, what becomes of your status as a member of Congress or the Senate? I`m a little leery of having someone make the laws who can so flagrantly break the law.
GRACE: Oh, there`s a long history of breaking the laws in Congress. What about it, Jonathan Martin? Any rules on that?
MARTIN: Well, he can stay -- he can stay in the Congress, but the problem is, is that, the fact he was found guilty is going to prompt an ethics investigation in the Senate and therefore will drag out this problem in the papers for weeks now, which is why...
GRACE: But Jonathan, isn`t it true that there are a lot of congress people that have been convicted of DUI, you name it, and they still sit in Congress?
MARTIN: Sure, but he`s got a serious political problem because of the nature of these charges and because of the lurid details of what happened that we had first via paper, and now we have an actual audio recording of.
GRACE: Actually, there is a standard of improper conduct which may reflect upon the Senate. That`s the standard for the Senate Ethics Committee. That`s how they judge him. It`s a very vague standard, Patty, and I would predict that they`re not going to turn on their own.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KARSNIA: I don`t want to get into a pissing match here.
CRAIG: We`re not going to.
KARSNIA: Good.
CRAIG: I don`t -- I am not gay. I don`t do these kind of things and...
KARSNIA: It doesn`t matter. I don`t care about sexual preference or anything like that. Here`s your stuff back, sir. I don`t care about sexual preference.
CRAIG: I know you don`t. You`re out to enforce the law.
KARSNIA: Right.
CRAIG: But you shouldn`t be out to entrap people, either.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Senator Craig now denying that he is guilty, after a guilty plea.
Out to the lines. Diane in California. Hi, Diane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. Would it be possible to use Senator Craig`s pension to offset the Senate ethics investigation costs?
GRACE: Jonathan Martin, any way to do that?
MARTIN: I think it`s certainly possible, but I don`t think that`s going to happen anytime soon, but...
GRACE: I think you`re right.
MARTIN: ... what is going to happen, though, Nancy, is that there are going to be a lot of Republicans here in Washington, D.C., who are going to put enormous pressure on Senator Craig to step down.
GRACE: To Amanda. Hi, Amanda, in Oregon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have not heard Senator Craig solicit sex, and I`m concerned that these gestures that he may have accidentally made were...
GRACE: OK. What about it, Mike Brooks?
BROOKS: Nancy, you heard Jean, who did the research on it. And I can tell you from having worked prostitution and perversion, that`s the way it happens. And who reaches down and picks up a piece of toilet paper off a bathroom floor in an airport?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are looking for new leads in the disappearance of New Jersey mother of three Liza Murphy. Liza vanished from her Emerson home more than a week ago with just the clothes on her back. Her husband, Joseph Murphy, says Liza left home after the two had an argument over an affair she was having, but Liza`s friends say she would never leave her children behind.
In another twist, police say Liza`s husband never reported her missing. Instead, they were notified by an anonymous caller. And a few days after Liza disappeared, Joseph Murphy tried to commit suicide by stepping into oncoming traffic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Where is mother of three Liza Murphy? No cell phone activity, no credit card activity. Her husband says she must have left with nothing but the clothes on her back. Since her disappearance, an ugly attack on the victim`s character. Now she`s been sighted in alleged sightings as far away as Chicago.
Out to Glenn Schuck, reporter with 1010 WINS radio, Glenn, thank you for being with us tonight. I understand cops are starting over at square one.
GLENN SHUCK, REPORTER: They are indeed. Well, what they`re saying today for the first time is they told me they`re 90 percent sure that she is not in this area. Liza Murphy is not in Emerson; she`s not in the immediate area. They`re not doing that search actively. What they`re doing now is revisiting, going back to friends, acquaintances, family members, having second, third, maybe even fourth interviews, if necessary, just to try to drum up some kind of leads here. But, again, the important part is they think she is no longer in the area, so that active search in Bergen County is not really happening now.
GRACE: To Joseph Rem -- Joseph Rem, a veteran trial lawyer himself who is representing the husband of missing Liza Murphy. If he is not a suspect, and he has not been named a person of interest, which I don`t believe he has, why does he need a defense attorney, sir?
JOSEPH REM, ATTORNEY FOR JOSEPH MURPHY: Well, for the same reason the Duke lacrosse players needed a defense attorney and the late Richard Jewell needed one. Innocent people need a lawyer more than guilty people do.
GRACE: You think innocent people need a defense lawyer more than guilty. Did I just hear that straight?
REM: Yep, because what`s the worst that can happen to a guilty person? They get their just desserts. An innocent man can be wrongfully convicted. As you know from the Innocence Project, that happens quite frequently. People go to the death chamber and subsequently are discovered to have been innocent. Innocent people need it as much or more than guilty people.
GRACE: Out to Detective Sergeant George Buono with the Emerson Police Department, sir, thank you for being with us. I understand police are starting over at square one. Today police gave a statement, which I thought was very pointed, as to how they would like to speak to Liza`s husband. What do you think of that request?
SGT. GEORGE BUONO, EMERSON POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, of course we would like to speak with him. I would just hope that Mr. Rem would make his client available when the time is right so we can do that.
GRACE: What do you mean by "when the time is right"? She`s been missing for some time. How much more right can the time be, Sergeant?
BUONO: Well, we are trying to collect all the information we possibly can. As you said in your opener, we are continuing to interview friends and relatives of Liza with the hope that we can have some information as to her whereabouts. And we are planning on asking Mr. Rem to make his client available to us.
GRACE: Detective Sergeant Joe Buono with us from the Emerson Police Detective. Detective, what is your understanding of the nature of Mr. Murphy`s injuries?
BUONO: From what I understand, Nancy, he had a broken pelvis, several fractured ribs, and some minor internal injuries. The last report we have from the hospital is that he is out of intensive care and doing well.
GRACE: Do you know what hospital he`s in? And he`s out of intensive care. Why hasn`t he been released, Sergeant?
BUONO: I still think he needs some medical attention, but he`s out of the woods, as far as a critical nature.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the other lawyers, Rikki Klieman and Mickey Sherman, joining us along with Jean Casarez, attorney from Court TV, attorney and correspondent. Mickey, do you not find it unusual at the least that only after attention was focused on Joseph Murphy that he decided try and commit suicide by flinging himself into a four-lane?
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hey, maybe he was distraught that his wife was missing. You know, we`re jumping to conclusions. Of course it`s very suspect, but that doesn`t necessarily mean he`s guilty. And the fact that he`s lawyered up, I agree with Joe Rem. I mean, so often people get criticized because they`re lawyered up. Look at the last story, that Craig guy, if he had lawyered up, he wouldn`t be where he is now. So, you know, that doesn`t exactly mean that you`re guilty or that you`re wrong or that you`re stupid. You`re stupid if you don`t get a lawyer.
GRACE: Hmm, spoken like a true defense attorney. Out to the lines, Debbie in Oregon. Hi, Debbie.
CALLER: Hi. Love your show, Nancy.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: Yes, I have fibromyalgia and depression, and the medications that the doctors put you on for that kind of disease you cannot stop taking. You go through withdrawal so bad, so I was wondering if the police had found that she had taken her medication with her or anything.
GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question, Detective Debbie from Oregon. Out to Detective Sergeant George Buono. Did she take her medicine with her? Do we have any indication that she`s had it refilled?
BUONO: We`ve had no indication that she`s had it refilled, Nancy. As a matter of fact, our investigation did reveal that she had access to medication after she went missing. She had a prescription that was filled at a local drugstore. The check of that local drugstore, she did not pick that prescription up.
GRACE: And is this the type of medication -- I assume it`s for pain, Detective Sergeant -- that she would take every single day?
BUONO: Yes, that`s correct.
GRACE: What about it, Joseph Rem? Did she leave without her meds, too?
REM: Well, that`s what the police investigation has received, obviously. I haven`t been in the house. My client doesn`t know, but certainly Sergeant Buono is an extremely decorated and well-respected veteran. If he says it, I have to say it`s so.
GRACE: But, Mr. Rem, you were the one who on national TV last night said she`s a drug addict to prescription drugs. You don`t think an addict -- and you and I have both dealt with addicts -- you`ve probably represented them, I`ve probably prosecuted them -- they are not going anywhere without their supplies.
REM: My addicts go everywhere without their supply because they have numerous ways of getting a new supply.
GRACE: OK. Joseph Rem, I`ve got to say you make an excellent point, but it seems to me, Bethany Marshall -- Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author -- if she had a prescription waiting there for her to pick up and she`s addicted to prescription drugs the way defense attorney Joseph Rem accuses her, of course she would go by and pick them up.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I have a whole different perspective on this fibromyalgia, depression, drug addiction allegation. My understanding is that she recently sought treatment for drug and alcohol addiction, has been involved in 12-step programs, and had begun making friends. And I`m wondering if this is more of a dynamic of a murder- suicide, where when the wife gets more autonomous, the husband then becomes destabilized. Also, I think it`s important to note the jealousy and the fear that the wife might leave and that she`s having an affair is a common precursor to homicide, and also the lack of objectivity that the husband has been showing and accusing her of having an affair where there`s no evidence that she was.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police in New Jersey have suspended the search now for Liza Murphy, a mother of three who mysterious disappeared more than a week ago. This case is baffling police. They really have no new leads. Days after her disappearance, Murphy`s husband tried to kill himself by jumping in front of a car, but his lawyer insists that was because his client is so upset about her disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Police going back to square one in the search for Liza Murphy. Where is the mother of three since her disappearance? A laundry list of complaints against her has been disseminated by representatives of her husband, her husband, Joseph Murphy. Out to the lines, Becky in Ohio. Hi, Becky.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: Good, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: Great. My question is, if both the missing mother and the husband were both on antidepressants and had tried suicide at different times, why wasn`t their medicine changed? And what has happened with the children at these times?
GRACE: Interesting question. Let`s go out to Glenn Schuck, reporter 1010 WINS. I know the husband had tried to commit suicide about 17 years ago, but what about Liza Murphy?
SCHUCK: Well, she -- there have been reports and Joe Rem has been talking about it, the fact that she`s been on this medication. There`s been complaints in the neighborhood about her behavior.
GRACE: And that alleged suicide attempt, do we know anything about that?
SCHUCK: I do not, no.
GRACE: I seem to, Glenn, I`ve heard a little bit about that. What about it, Jean?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: It`s in some legal documents, and it`s in 2005 that she called a suicide help line saying she was having thoughts of suicide, and that is what got her into a treatment program for prescription drug abuse, allegedly, and alcohol, and then it progressed from there.
GRACE: That`s not a suicide attempt, Jean Casarez.
CASAREZ: No, it`s not a suicide attempt. It`s suicidal thoughts, but that`s where she intersects with the suicide issue.
GRACE: So, Glenn, I think, Glenn Schuck, I think the bottom line is, all they`ve got are complaints against her within the neighborhood. And then, as Jean has told us from reading all the legal documents, that there were suicidal ideations many years ago, but no attempt. The attempt was on the husband`s part many, many years ago.
Out to Donna Woods, a very dear friend of Liza Murphy`s. Donna, how has it felt to you to stand by and see all of this mudslinging against your friend while people should be out looking for her?
DONNA WOODS, FRIEND OF LIZA MURPHY: They should be looking for her. Mudslinging is ridiculous. Her being a drug addict, I never knew her to be a drug addict. I never knew her to try to commit suicide. It`s just ridiculous.
GRACE: Is there any chance -- you`ve known her for a very long time - - that she would just disappear into thin air for this long without contacting anyone?
WOODS: No. Something is majorly wrong.
GRACE: Have you talked to her husband?
WOODS: The day after she went missing.
GRACE: What did he say?
WOODS: All he kept saying was, "I should have let her use the Jeep. I should have let her use the Jeep." And I didn`t know what he was talking about.
GRACE: With did he mean by that, Joseph Rem? You`re his attorney. "I should have let her use the Jeep"?
REM: In the condition she was in, he did not want her driving that Jeep. She was angry. She was aggravated. And she was animated. And he was also angry at her, and he just didn`t want her taking the sole family vehicle that they had.
GRACE: So let me get this right. She had to ask permission to use the family car?
REM: No, but in the midst of a fight, rationality rarely prevails.
GRACE: OK. All right. Out to Mike Brooks, Mike, in a missing person`s case like this, what do you do?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Well, they`re going back to square one, Nancy. Talk to all the friends and associates. Also, I`d be anxious to interview this guy who she was allegedly having this affair with. You know, what, if any, role does he play in this disappearance? Does he possibly know where she could have gone or if she had some friends that no one else knows about?
GRACE: To Detective Sergeant George Buono, you told me last night, neither confirming nor denying, that there had had been a boyfriend of any type, that you were aware of this allegation and you had spoken, theoretically, if there was one, to the young man, correct?
BUONO: That is correct, Nancy.
GRACE: So, Mike, I agree with you. That`s the first place you start.
And why is it, to Rikki Klieman, that you always start in the inner circle of the missing person, boyfriend, children, family, neighbors, then you go out from there?
RIKKI KLIEMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because most homicides occur because someone who knows someone or is intimately involved with someone kills them. So it`s the spouse; it`s the lover; it`s the would-be lover; it`s the kids; it`s the parents. It makes sense that that happens.
Nancy, I`ve just got to add one thing in here, because it concerns me. And that`s the fact about this attempted suicide on the part of the husband, because I`ve had not one, but two clients in my life who have both committed suicide whom I firmly believe were innocent. And it was the threat of the publicity, and it was the threat of the depression, and it was the threat of the public scrutiny. So it`s always stayed with me, and it will stay with me to my grave that it is not necessarily an indication of guilt.
GRACE: You know, to Mickey Sherman, didn`t O.J. Simpson write some long suicide note and then never commit suicide? Am I remembering that correctly?
SHERMAN: Yes, but O.J. Simpson is such an aberration, I mean, as we all agree.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Yes, men that kill their wives. That never happens.
SHERMAN: That`s when the criminal justice system jumped the shark in this country.
GRACE: Mickey, don`t you think that it would make more sense that you would want to live to find your spouse, to find the mother of your children, than step out into a four lane?
SHERMAN: Yes, but I`ve got to tell you, I`ve had the same experience that Rikki has had. I think I`ve had at least four or five clients who killed themselves, and not just...
GRACE: I don`t know that I would advertise that, Mickey.
SHERMAN: Not just after they got my bill. I mean, they were just so terribly distressed that they were going to be charged and put through the sausage factory of the criminal justice system. It`s not necessarily an admission of guilt.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Jim in Canada, hi, Jim.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. Thank you for asking. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question was, the lady that you were just talking to a few minutes ago, has anybody in the police force directly talked to the alleged boyfriend?
GRACE: Yes, they have. In fact, Jim, you`re right on it. The first thing you do is talk to the spouse and then any alleged boyfriend- girlfriend. To Donna Wood, what can you tell me about this relationship? Every time we start talking about the search for Liza Murphy, somebody wants to talk about the boyfriend. Can we just put it to bed once and for all? What do you know?
WOODS: It should just be put to bed, and that`s it.
GRACE: Was there an affair? Or was he a good friend? Was he a confidant? What was it?
WOODS: He was just a friend, and that was it. There was nothing more to it.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, whatever happened to the car? Was it impounded?
CASAREZ: Well, the car was impounded almost immediately. The home was searched almost immediately. And as we all know, they covered the acreages, hundreds and hundreds of acres, to find her, and there was no sign of foul play. So I think that`s why they are stuck right now, and that`s why they have to go back to talk about and talk to the last people that ever saw her before she disappeared.
GRACE: Dr. Marshall, can spouses become just as jealous as a confidant as opposed to someone you`re having a sex affair with?
MARSHALL: Yes, because, if you use a model of homicide, often there is that lack of objectivity that I talked about earlier.
GRACE: Well-put. Everyone, very quickly tonight, "CNN Heroes."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re rolling.
JESUS AGUAIS, "MEDICAL MARVEL": The simplest idea could make the biggest impact, recycling HIV medicine. How many people out there are looking for medicine? And how many people with HIV in the United States have no idea that they could save lives with something that is just a leftover for them?
My name is Jesus Aguais. I`m the founder of Aid for AIDS International. I`m dedicated to improving the quality of life for people with HIV in developing countries.
Early in 1993, I got a job as a counselor in one of the Latino AIDS organizations here in New York. In terms of helping people abroad, there was very little that you could do. There was no medicine at all. Only people with lots of money could come to the United States. The rest, the common people, have to die.
In 1996, the first two protease inhibitors got approved, but some people couldn`t tolerate it, a treatment that cost $1,200 was being thrown away. I just knew it was wrong, purely wrong. I was telling people, why don`t you bring it to me?
We started using the concept of recycling the HIV medicine. All the medicine comes from people with HIV around the U.S. and goes abroad. People can send it directly to us or, if they live in the New York City area, we can pick it up, and we send it on a monthly basis straight to the patient.
This is a matter of saving life. People need this medicine. We need to get it to them. It`s our responsibility. I see it as what I`m here to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Out to the lines, Gina in Ohio, hi, Gina.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: How are you, dear? What`s your question?
CALLER: Congratulations on your twins.
GRACE: Oh, they are something. They`re cooking hot tamales again tonight.
CALLER: OK. I`d like to know if the attorney for Liza`s husband, when he gets out of the hospital, would he be willing to take a lie detector`s test?
GRACE: Joseph Rem, Gina wants to know, will your client take a poly?
REM: Nancy, as you`ve said many times on the air yourself, a polygraph is a machine of questionable accuracy.
GRACE: No, I didn`t.
REM: Now, as a seasoned defense attorney...
GRACE: No, no, no, no. I didn`t say that. I did not say that. I said that it hasn`t been accepted scientifically in court, but it can still come into evidence if both parties stipulate. That`s the law.
REM: That`s correct. And if it was -- if it was of unquestioned scientific accuracy, it would be allowed into the court of law.
GRACE: So will he take the poly or not?
REM: As a criminal attorney, would you allow your client to take it?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m asking you. I`m not a criminal defense lawyer. Can you answer the question? Is he going to take a poly or not?
REM: I`ve been hired to protect his rights. I will not allow him to take any test on a machine with uncertain reliability.
GRACE: OK, so the answer is no. Thank you. That was beautiful.
(CROSSTALK)
REM: When they come up with an accurate machine, I will let him take the test.
GRACE: An accurate machine. OK, Gina, the answer is no.
Let`s stop. Let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Jeremy Tinnel, 20, Mechanicsville, Virginia, killed, Iraq. On a second tour, awarded the Combat Action Ribbon and National Defense Attorney medal, a Civil War buff, loved his southern roots and volunteering at church summer camp, spending time with children. He leaves behind dad, Harold, stepmom, Joyce, sisters, Christie and Laura, brother, James. Jeremy Tinnel, American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests, but especially to you. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
