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Craig Arrest Tape Released; Interview With Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo; Iraqi Government Failing?

Aired August 30, 2007 - 20:00   ET


RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: I want you to pay particular attention to something. You see that? That's the Iraqi report card, a document all Americans should probably look at.
Think of it this way. If your child brought home a report card that looked something like that, how would you respond?

Well, we're going to talk to the reporter who broke the story on this report card.

And then, there he is. That's Congressman Tom Tancredo. The thing about him is, he doesn't care who you are, a priest, a rabbi, a stellar student, an employer who hires hundreds of Americans. If you're in this country, you are an immigrant and you're undocumented, he wants you out. We are going to talk and together we're going to bring the real problems with immigration out in the open.


SANCHEZ (voice-over): It's police tape everyone is talking about, a senator's arrest in a bathroom stall.

DAVE KARSNIA, INVESTIGATIVE SERGEANT: You're sitting here lying to a police officer.

SANCHEZ: You be the fly on the wall.

And what do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He should resign and leave the country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leave the country?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leave the country.

SANCHEZ: Forget the experts. What do Americans say about Senator Craig's bathroom bust?

What a scene in broad daylight in Chicago, cops, guns drawn, ducking behind cars, called to a bank robbery gone bad. Do they get their man?

And these two brothers are top-notch students, but they are here illegally. Kick them out or let them stay? We will bring it out in the open.


SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.

You're about to hear evidence in the case against Senator Larry Craig. AS you hear this, you are not going to know whether to cover your ears, because you're so embarrassed for this guy, or maybe even move in a little closer, so you can really hear what they're saying.

A couple hours ago, a tape-recorded conversation between an undercover police officer and the senator was released. And it appears to not help his case.

Senator Craig was arrested in an airport men's room, accused of soliciting sex. He says he did nothing wrong, and it was a mistake to plead guilty to anything, as he did.

Questions now: Can he keep his job? How are his colleagues reacting? And what about his constituents over in Idaho?

We take you now to Idaho for the latest from congressional correspondent Dana Bash. She's been all over this story.

Dana, I assume you have gone through this trying, often bizarre argument that takes place on tape and can share with us now who said what. Take it away.

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, if you listen to this tape, not only is it highly embarrassing, as you said. It also makes it a lot harder to understand how Senator Craig could have pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor for disorderly conduct two months after his arrest when just minutes after his arrest, he spent the entire post-arrest interview insisting he did nothing wrong.


BASH (voice-over): Upon arrest, Senator Larry Craig insisted he was innocent.

CRAIG: I don't -- I am not gay. I don't do these kinds of things and...


KARSNIA: That doesn't matter. I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that.

Here's your stuff back, sir. I don't care about sexual preference.

BASH: In this eight-minute combative interview minutes after his men's room arrest, officer David Karsnia read Craig his rights and asked for his side of the story.

CRAIG: I sit down to go to the bathroom. And you said our feet bumped. I believe they did, because I reached down and scooted over, and the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says "Police."

Now, that's about as far as I can take it.

BASH: Over and over, the officer told Craig he did not believe him.

KARSNIA: And I have never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me.

CRAIG: I don't want you to take me to jail. And I think...


KARSNIA: I'm not going to take you to jail as long as you be cooperative, but I -- I'm not going to lie. We...

CRAIG: Did my hand come below the divider? Yes, it did.

KARSNIA: OK. Sir, we deal with people that lie to us every day.

BASH: Sergeant Karsnia and Craig go round and round on what really happened in the bathroom.

KARSNIA: Did you do anything with your feet?

CRAIG: Positioned them, I don't know. I don't know at the time. I'm a fairly wide guy.

KARSNIA: I understand.


CRAIG: I tend to spread my legs...


CRAIG: ... when I lower my pants so they won't slide.


CRAIG: Did I slide them too close to yours? Did I -- I looked down once your foot was close to mine.


CRAIG: Did we bump? You said so. I don't recall that, but apparently we were close.

BASH: Craig insisted he was picking up a piece of paper, not giving a suggestive signal under the stall. It got more even combative.

KARSNIA: It's embarrassing.

CRAIG: Well, it's embarrassing for both. But I'm not going to fight you. KARSNIA: I know you're not going to fight me, but that's not the point. I would respect you. And I still respect you. I don't disrespect you. But I'm disrespected right now.

And I'm not tying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you're sitting here lying to a police officer.


BASH: Finally, the incredulous officer told Craig he was disappointed in him.

KARSNIA: I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. But, I mean -- I mean, people vote for you.

CRAIG: Yes, they do.


KARSNIA: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

CRAIG: And I'm a respectable person.


SANCHEZ: Dana joins us once again live.

You know, you said picking up a piece of paper. As I recall, as I was listening to it, he said picking up a piece of toilet paper, explanation for that, unknown. I'm certainly not going to ask you.

But I will ask you this. Given this tape is released today, wouldn't you think there would be some kind of reaction from the senator's office? Did you check?

BASH: I did.

And I got a quick e-mail back from the senator's spokesman, Dan Whiting. And he said, simply, no, it speaks for itself.

But I can tell you, Rick, that I have spoken to a couple of people here in Idaho and back in Washington in Republican circles. One influential immediately afterward said, look, just pull the plug. That was his exact quote. He said that the word on the street here is enough already, just really for the benefit of the senator's family at this point, because this was incredibly embarrassing.

And just on a political level, nationally, this is the last thing that national Republicans need at a time when they are already trying to make it very, very, very clear to Senator Craig that it's time for him to go, because they don't want to have this kind of scandal plaguing them.

And this just adds to the kind of watercooler discussion that is already out there about this. It's already buzzing through the blogosphere. It's on talk radio. It's everywhere and it is not going to let up.

SANCHEZ: Yes. And the officer by the way did not come across as a guy with any kind of axe to grind, like he even cared who the senator was.

I think he said a couple of times, look, I'm just doing my job on this one. So, I think that's part of what makes this argument on tape so interesting.

Dana Bash, thanks so much for being with us. We will certainly be getting back to you and checking more on this story from there.

What's surprising about this story is since we reported it about two days ago, it's riveted just average Americans. Maybe it has to do with the word that was thrown my way today on Times Square in New York City over and over again. The word is hypocrisy.

The question I asked is, how should Senator Craig react? Should he quit?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the Idaho senator should quit his position.



SANCHEZ: Or be fired?



SANCHEZ: Because what he did, by admitting that he committed a crime and pleading guilty, he is no longer suited to be in the Senate.

SANCHEZ: So, he's a conservative senator. And the police officer in Minneapolis says he was like playing footsies with him.


SANCHEZ: What do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that's highly inappropriate and gross.



SANCHEZ: Do you think he should resign?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know. That's a good question. Probably. SANCHEZ: So, you are willing to give the guy a break, though?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, yes, of course. You have to give him a break. You have to investigate and see what both sides of the story are. You have to give him the benefit of the doubt, I think.

SANCHEZ: Do you think this guy should remain a U.S. senator or should he resign?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was just reaching for the toilet paper that was on the floor in another stall. It's very senatorial.

SANCHEZ: Do you think, given what you know, he should resign as a U.S. senator?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the allegations should be looked into it a little more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He should resign and leave the country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leave the country?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leave the country.

SANCHEZ: Why should he leave the country?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because that's an embarrassing moment, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He pleaded guilty.

SANCHEZ: He has got a problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has a huge problem.


SANCHEZ: And, usually, when you do stories like that, you have to seek people who want to talk to you. People were coming to us. They wanted to talk about this story.

There is not even a hint yet that Senator Craig will quit, by the way. With each day, more of his own colleagues, though, are suggesting that the gig is up.

Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley is joining us now.

Candy, is Craig the stinkpot in the middle of the room, speaking metaphorically, of course, for the Republican Party at this time? And what are you hearing from his colleagues that they're willing to do about this?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, at this point, officially what they have done is launch an Ethics Committee probe.

But I think, if you look at these statements, particularly Senator Ensign's, who put out a statement, he, of course, being head of the Republican committee that tries to elect Senate Republicans, saying, well, gee, if I were in his shoes, I would resign.

Boy, you don't need too big a sign here. Everyone is sort of pointing to this. And I think what would most relive Republicans at this point is a quick resignation, so they can get on with -- 2008 is coming. This is not something that helps Republicans who have been trying to turn the corner for some time.

SANCHEZ: You wonder what his pain threshold is.

Let me ask you this, as well, because I think this is interesting now. We haven't heard this type of call for resignation of David Vitter, for example, who admitted to sinning, he says, by visiting this prostitution scandal that we have been following in Washington, D.C.

Does that become salient now?

CROWLEY: Well, one of the problems here for Senator Craig is he pleaded guilty. And I think that's the bottom line here.

When you talk to a lot of these senators, perhaps if he had come out and said, look, this was a big misunderstanding and I couldn't understand why the officer said this, it would be a he said/he said.

But what happened here was that the senator pleaded guilty. And after that, a lot of his colleagues say, done, game over.

SANCHEZ: Candy Crowley, following the story for us, we thank you for bringing us up to date on that, as we continue to stay on top.

There is more on that tape, by the way, of Senator Craig literally arguing with this policeman.

In fact, here is a little bit more. Take a listen.


KARSNIA: I have been trained in this.


KARSNIA: I have been trained in this, and I know what I am doing.


KARSNIA: And I saw you put your hand under there. And you're going to sit there and...

CRAIG: I admit I put my hand down.


SANCHEZ: It gets ugly. More of the tape, it's coming up. Also, we're doing something special for you tonight. It's the secret world of these sexual antics played out in men's rooms across the country that most of us were, frankly, oblivious to. How big is this?

And the new report card on Iraq. What's going wrong? What's going right?

And this. This looks serious. Watch out. We're going to tell you when it's going to blow.

We will be right back.


SANCHEZ: And welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.

All right. Here we go. This is always a tough subject, because we all want success in Iraq for our troops. But the report card tonight seems to be saying otherwise. What would you do, for example, if your kid brought home a report card with only eight out of 18 passing grades? You would say what? You would say, go back and you better fix this, right? You better do better the next time around.

So, what if the next report card that your kid brought home was even worse?

Tonight, a special look at the government's own report card on Iraq.


SANCHEZ (voice-over): Even back in July, it wasn't a glowing report card. Iraq got an S for satisfactory in only eight of 18 subjects. That's fewer than half. Now, these are the benchmarks that were set by Congress when it went along with the plan to approve extra money for the war.

Now to the new report. It's not due for release by the White House until mid-September, but "The Washington Post" has gotten a sneak peek. And it reports that the Government Accountability Office, or GAO, is giving Iraq even lower scores than it got in July.

This one gives Iraq passing grades in just three of 18 areas or benchmarks to measure progress. Too important unsatisfactory grades stand out. Violence has not been reduced, and the Iraqi military brigades are not ready to do the job. This is not a report that will be well-received by the Pentagon.

In fact, a spokesperson confirms the Defense Department is now talking with the GAO trying to get some of the new grades brought up. Meanwhile, over at the White House, the president's spokesman seems to be trying to lower expectations.

TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There are going to be a number of areas where they have not met the benchmarks but, in fact, there is significant progress and that deserves to be noted as well.


SANCHEZ: Joining us now are Tom Ricks, one of "The Washington Post"'s reporters who broke today's story, along with a colleague, on the report card. By the way, he's also the author of a book called "Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq." And also joining us from Baghdad, CNN's Michael Ware.

Tom, let me begin with you.

This is not a satisfactory report, at least the way we read it, and even worse if you compare it to the July report, correct?


In its current draft, it's a pretty pessimistic assessment, much more than what the White House put out in July.

SANCHEZ: All right.

Michael, if this is an unsatisfactory report card, the question to you has to be, you are on the ground. You see things with your own eyes and ears. Does what you see on the ground jibe with what this report says?


In fact, anyone who has had to endure this war day by day, be they Iraqi or non-Iraqis, knows what's in that report is patently fact. We don't need yet another report, like a broken record, during this season of pre-September 15 reports, to tell us this.

Militarily, yes, there's some successes. The surge is the surge. The real success is coming from the tradeoff with the Sunni insurgency. But, politically, it's an absolute disaster.

SANCHEZ: Well, you know what I want to do? I want to see if we can get specific here. There's two areas that I think are significant here. You guys tell me if I'm wrong.

Look at number nine there, viewers. I know there's a lot of stuff on there, but if you're sitting at home and you're watching this, look at number nine. The July report has an S next to it. That means satisfactory. That's Iraqi brigades, the building up of Iraqi brigades.

This report says a big U, unsatisfactory.

Go to the next screen, Will (ph), if you could.

There's another area I think is significant.

And, Tom, I am going to get your response to this. Look at reduced violence. Remember, the surge, if it was working, this is one of the areas it was supposed to concentrate on. The July report said mixed. This report seems to indicate, again, a big U, unsatisfactory.

Tom, to you. How significant is this?

RICKS: Oh, I think they are both very significant. I think you put your finger on the two sharpest differences between the White House assessment and the GAO assessment.

It's on security where it says, no, the Iraqi army is not living up to its billing. In fact, the GAO report quite precisely points out that there used to be 10 Iraqi units capable of independent operations. Now there are only six.

SANCHEZ: Well, look, anybody who lives in this country as an American wants this thing to work. Whether it is or isn't is something that we need to all study.

But obviously the White House wants this to work. Here is what they had to say.

And, Michael, I want you to respond on the other side of Tony Snow's comments.


SNOW: The idea that somehow your standard is everything completed or nothing completed seems to me to be a pretty high standard to meet. On the other hand, if you're trying to figure out are you making progress toward the goals that you have set out, that's probably the proper way to look at it.


SANCHEZ: Well, how do you respond to that, Michael?

WARE: I would respond to that by inviting Tony Snow to come and spend just one day with an Iraqi family in their house. Then he can tell me if there's any hint of progress.

Honestly, he's misleading the American public. And what we are seeing here is, the differences, these nuances, these conflicts within these reports, this is more a Washington, D.C., story. No one here on the ground in an American uniform needs to be told how hopeless the Iraqi army is or how riven by sectarian divisions it is.

SANCHEZ: Tom, I want to go back to you before we run out of time.

There is a report out that says that the Pentagon seems to be trying to put the squeeze on GAO to have them maybe improve the grade, so to speak. Wouldn't that be like me going to my kid's principal and saying, I don't like his grades, and you need to fix it, because, obviously, it is not his fault? RICKS: It would be more like the gym teacher going and saying the kid is not as stupid as he looks. He has better coordination. He has improved more than you think.

But I think Michael's point is very good. When the White House talks about progress, the problem is, they have talked about progress for five years now. In Iraq, progress seems to be like the horizon. It's always out there, but it never gets any closer.

SANCHEZ: Tom Ricks, Michael Ware, my thanks to both of you.

And my thanks as well to Tom Tancredo, who is standing by. He's going to be joining us for a little bit of a heated discussion about immigration, as you might expect.

And then, tonight, we're bringing out in the open something that most of you really never think about. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's all kinds of places many times that most of us walk by or walk into in our daily lives and never realize are cruising locations.


SANCHEZ: This happens in places where you would never imagine. We are going to show you this creepy game and how it is played out. This is a special CNN report that we're going to be bringing you on this.

And then more of the argument between Senator Larry Craig and an airport undercover police officer who suggests Craig was looking for sex in a bathroom. Craig suggests it's entrapment and tells that to the officer's face. This is all on tape. And you are going to hear it right here, OUT IN THE OPEN.


SANCHEZ: What a chaotic scene in Chicago today, police responding to a bank robbery. They are convinced that a man is in there and he's holding hostages. The SWAT teams are called out.

There you see a couple of them right there. See? They have got their rifles in that area right there. It's trained on the bank itself. As many as 35 hostages, they say, could be inside the bank. Some of them are employees. Others are possibly customers.

After being in this situation for quite awhile, the bank robber, according to police, gets away. They say they still haven't been able to find him.

Now let's show you this story. This is going on also in Illinois. And this is a giant building that used to be the Brach's candy factory. And there it goes, up in flames. But notice how close that helicopter just happens to be flying over there. You know why? That's because this is actually done for a movie. What movie? "Batman," "Batman" number 452, I believe it is. And they're saying the situation was fine. These are people who are experts in implosions. They knew what they were doing.

Those are just two of today's top pics.

And now I would like to talk to you about something that you probably think about from time to time, because many of us think about this. But this is about more than just thoughts. Do you have the guts to quit your job, to really go after it, to go after happiness, to find a way maybe to get that happiness out of helping others?

It's a story about "Life After Work," as told by our own gutsy Ali Velshi.


ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A picture is worth 1,000 words.


VELSHI: And photographer Phil Borges believes kids taking pictures learn value beyond words through his Bridges to Understanding Foundation.

BORGES: Bridges is a program that connects kids, typically middle school and high school kids, in our country here in the USA with kids around the world.

And we do it through digital storytelling. So, we have the kids produce a story about an issue in their community. We make a little multimedia piece of it. And they post it on the Web and the two classrooms discuss.

VELSHI: The Bridges program, based in Seattle, connects students in 15 locations worldwide, including Peru, Nepal, and, most recently, South Africa. It's a student exchange program for the YouTube generation.

BORGES: What we are trying to do is get kids to build empathy across cultural barriers, and to understand one another, to learn with and from each other, instead of just about each other, the way we did when we were in school.

VELSHI: Borges is not new to building bridges. He is a retired orthodontist. But he left dental work behind after 18 years to become a photographer. And after traveling the globe shooting portraits of people for his books, Borges found a way to give back.

BORGES: The idea started with giving indigenous people a voice, let them tell their stories directly. And, then, once we started hooking them up with schools here, and I learned more about the school system, and how little global and international education was going on, that became another motivation.

VELSHI: Ali Velshi, CNN.


SANCHEZ: There is another story we need to tell you about, because it's something that we have turned into a cause for all of here.

This summer, we have been bringing out in the Open a real injustice that's been happening to some of our men and our women who are coming back after serving in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Federal law, you need to know, is supposed to guarantee the civilian jobs of people who are in the National Guard, of people who are reservists that have been called to duty. They are supposed to be able to hold on to those jobs for at least five years while they're serving their country.

But, too often, we're finding out, in huge numbers, they are going from being deployed to coming back and finding they're unemployed. Their bosses aren't respecting the loss.

So, next week, we are going to be talking with a vet who is named Matthew Tully. We were supposed to have him on today, but, with all the breaking news and everything going on in Idaho, we had to push it back.

He has had problems with his employ after he came back from serving in 1998. So, filed suit and he won a settlement that paid for law school. And you know what he's doing now with his law degree? He's using it to crusade for the other vets all over that country -- and every day we hear of new ones -- who are in this same dilemma.

So, we want you to hear his story as he brings us their stories. It's good stuff.

Also, I want to play something for you now that you don't hear every day.

Listen to this. This is a police officer telling a standing U.S. senator, to his face, that he's a liar.


KARSNIA: I'm just disappointed in you, sir. I just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. But, I mean -- I mean, people vote for you.

CRAIG: Yes, they do.


KARSNIA: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

(END AUDIO CLIP) SANCHEZ: They go back and forth. He says one thing. He says another thing. We are going to play you more of this Larry Craig actual arrest tape the day it happened there in Minneapolis.

Also, we are going to bring out something out in the open that most Americans have no clue about. They call it the men's room hookup. What is it? You will find out.

And then, later, they're here illegally, but they get great grades. They're outstanding students. They have done everything right. Should they be kicked out of the country or allowed to stay?

We're going to ask Tom Tancredo. He wants to be the next president of the United States.



DAVE KARSNIA, MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT POLICE OFFICER: I am trained in this and I know what I am doing. And I say you put your hand under there and you're going to sit there and...

SEN. LARRY CRAIG: (R), IDAHO: I admit I put my hand down.

KARSNIA: You put your hand and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.

CRAIG: No. Wait a moment.

KARSNIA: And I'm not dumb. You can say I don't recall...

CRAIG: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there.

KARSNIA: it's not that hard for me to reach. (INAUDIBLE) it's not that hard. I see it happen everyday out here now.

CRAIG: (INAUDIBLE) you do. All right.

KARSNIA: I just, I just, I guess, I guess I'm going to say I'm just disappointed in you sir. I'm just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean, people vote for you.

CRAIG: Yes, they do. (INAUDIBLE)

KARSNIA: Unbelievable, unbelievable.

CRAIG: I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of...

KARSNIA: And (INAUDIBLE) respect right now though.

CRAIG: But I didn't use my left hand.

KARSNIA: I thought that you... CRAIG: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.

KARSNIA: Was your gold ring on your right hand at anytime today?

CRAIG: Of course not, try to get it off, look at it.

KARSNIA: OK. Then it was your left hand, I saw it with my own eyes.

CRAIG: All right, you saw something that didn't happen.


SANCHEZ: By the way, it's important to note as you listen to that conversation, what the officer says is that he has been studying this for quite sometime because it's his job to go in there, it's his detail, as they call it. And he says he has seen other suspects do that very same gesture. And when he sees that same gesture, what it means to him is the person may be soliciting or looking for sex in a bathroom. That's what the gist of that argument was about.

Well, there's no questing that this story has been bringing something out in the open that most of us probably had no idea about. It's called the men's room hookup. So, we asked our own CNN's Dan Lothian to go out and ask how this phenomenon actually works. And he brings us this report.


DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's not the primary function of parks, restrooms and rest areas, but for men in search of anonymous same-sex partners, they are popular destinations.

PROF RICHARD TEWKSBURY, UNIVERSITY OF LOUISVILLE: There's also the idea that there is sort of a thrill to the hunt, to the excitement of sex in a public place, of doing something that potentially does have negative consequences for you.

LOTHIAN: Websites, like this one, offer a kind of adult travel guide, including rules of the game and secret signals to make a connection in a public restroom. Like waiting in a stall at the fartherest end of the bathroom, and when someone approaches next door "move your foot so that you know the other person can see it and slowly start tapping it."

(on camera): Professor Richard Tewksbury at the University of Louisville, has published several studies on this sub-culture. He has documented about 9,000 locations across the country where he says this public behavior, often referred to as cruising, takes place, merely because of opportunity and convenience.

TEWKSBURY: There's all kinds of places, many times, that most of us walk by and walk into in our daily lives and never realize are cruising locations. LOTHIAN (voice-over): Anonymous gay sex in public area certainly isn't new. Remember pop singer George Michael almost 10 years ago? He was busted for engaging in a lewd act in a park restroom in Beverly Hills.

GEORGE MICHAEL, POP SINGER: I can only apologize. I can try to fathom why I did it.

LOTHIAN: But law enforcement agencies across the country have been caking down in recent months, sometimes using underground stings to catch men in the act. Like at restrooms at Atlanta's Hartsfield Jackson International Airport where more than 40 men were picked up recently for indecent exposure and public sex acts.

MAJ DARRYL TOLLESON, ATLANTA POLICE DEPT: We have arrested college professors, bank presidents, other CEOs. So, we -- it ranges...

LOTHIAN: And here's another surprise.

TEWKSBURY: The research tell us that for the most part we're talking about men who are involved in some kind of long-term heterosexual relationship, frequently married, frequently with children...

LOTHIAN: Investigators say critics who argue police should be focusing on more serious crimes are missing the point, that this public behavior is illegal.

TOLLESON: We're there to enforce all crime -- enforce all laws.

LOTHIAN: And they're finding suspects in the bathroom.

Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.


SANCHEZ: Then there's the immigration debate. We're about to meet a couple of immigrants, they're brothers who grew up here and learned English and have become model citizens and model students. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the beginning we've been American. We've lived this lifestyle.


SANCHEZ: There is just one problem, here. Turns out they're here illegally. Should they be kicked out or should they be allowed to stay? No matter how well they've done?

Well, I'm going to talk over this with a guy who's all about fighting illegal immigration. Congressman and presidential candidate, Tom Tancredo. That's the guy with the big smile, right there. Thank you Congressman, we'll be talking to in just a bit. Everybody stick around, we'll be right back.


SANCHEZ: And welcome you back. I want you to look at something. Go ahead, show that number over there: 105,000,000. This is from a new report out today from the Center for Immigration Studies. What it's saying is by year 2060 immigration will add 105 million people to the population of the United States. That is huge. And it really makes it clear just how urgent it is for this country to solve the immigration question. It's controversial, it's divisive and it's not going away. In fact, there are an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the country right, now.

Some would argue that number's as high as 20 million. It's number you don't have to tell to this guy that we're going to show you, right now. There he is. Tom Tancredo, he knows it too well, committed it to memory, probably. That's Congressman Tom Tancredo, I should say. He's accepted our invitation to talk about this with us and we really appreciate it.

This is a problem, by the way, that's as complex as it is personal. So, before we go to the Congressman. We want to talk about another case. This is the case of two brothers from Columbia. CNN's Susan Candiotti has their story.


SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Juan and Alex Gomez were born in Columbia, but grew up outside Miami. They seem like all Americans and good students. In fact, Juan just graduated with honors near the top of his class.

JUAN GOMEZ, FACING DEPORTATION: In the beginning we're been American, we've lived this lifestyle.

I don't know how they're going to beat the Patriots.

CANDIOTTI: But in the eyes of the law, that American lifestyle was based on lies. The Gomez's had come here on a tourist visa in 1990 and overstayed, then were denied asylum. And finally five years ago, and immigration judge ordered them to leave the country. Last month, ICE decided to enforce that order. Putting the entire family in handcuffs and behind bars, and that's when things exploded. Juan's friends went into overdrive.

SCOTT ELFENBEIN, FRIEND OF GOMEZ'S: It's still bizarre that us -- 10, now you know 20 18-year-olds combined with who's in here in Miami, have gone from you know, almost apathetic teenagers to political advocates.

CANDIOTTI: Juan's friends flew to Washington to try to get the family's impending deportation stopped. They pleaded their case with politicians and the media, and basically became that proverbial squeaky wheel. The pressure and publicity worked, at least temporarily.

ALEX GOMEZ, FACING DEPORTATION: Friends. Really all that is. Friends. Like without them, we wouldn't be here.

CANDIOTTI: The entire Gomez family was released on a 45-day extension. When Congress reconvenes next month, a private bill just for them, could allow the boys, but not their parents, to stay. And if the boys finish college, they could apply to stay permanently.

CHERYL LITTLE, IMMIGRATION ATTY: We've already invested in their education, for goodness sake. You know, why expert that? I mean, we should be benefiting from the education that we've provided them.

CANDIOTTI: But should good grades equal preferential treatment?

REP TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Does that mean that if you are a "C" student, but you are here illegally, you should be deported, but if you are a "C" plus or a "B" student and you're here illegally, you should not? Of course not.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): The Gomez brothers case is in the spotlight, but it's far from unique. The Urban Institute estimates there are 65,000 undocumented students in the U.S. who have graduated high school and have been here at least five years. If they're caught, they may be taken to a federal detention center like this one outside Miami and held for deportation proceedings.

(voice-over): Congress is considering a so-called "Dream Act," to allow students who are here illegally to apply for a permanent U.S. residency if they get a college degree and demonstrate "good moral character." So far the bill has been buried in failed attempts at immigration reform.

Juan Gomez, though, is not giving up.

J. GOMEZ: If you just blindly look at it as a law and people breaking the law and never question the laws, then this country wouldn't be what it is now. We would still have women who can't vote. We would still have segregation.

CANDIOTTI: But for Juan and his brother, Alex, time is running out. Their 45-day extension will be nearly over by the time Congress returns from Summer recess.

Susan Candiotti, CNN, Miami.


SANCHEZ: Throws a football pretty well, anyway. Well, anyway, very few people have wrapped themselves around the immigration question quite like our next guest. Republican presidential candidate, Tom Tancredo is good enough to join us from the great state of Colorado.

Thank you, Congressman, for being with us. Producer says we have about three minute. Maybe we'll cheat, make her mad and ago a couple over.

TANCREDO: OK. SANCHEZ: My producer says you want these guys out, true?

TANCREDO: Well, it's not just these guys. I mean, I certainly have nothing against them. I'm just saying that the law is the law and you cannot possibly -- the minute you start making exceptions here, no matter what the circumstances are, and I understand, you know, they are -- they are -- the only thing I disagree with in your opening was you said that they are model citizens. They're not citizens. You know? They're not. And so...

SANCHEZ: Well, let's say for the sake of argument they've been acting like model citizens. Which they have.

TANCREDO: I'm sure they're fine kids. Fine kids. However, here's the problem. How in the world do you tell everybody else who's waiting to come into this country the right way, or all of the ones who have done it the right way, that it really doesn't matter?

SANCHEZ: That's the problem. That's the problem!

TANCREDO: You're exactly right.

SANCHEZ: That's the problem with the system, Congressman.

TANCREDO: Now, if we only have a few minutes, we better not spend it yelling at each other.

SANCHEZ: I'm not. I love you like a brother. But it just seems to me, and it's so irritating that we don't have any kind of law or system that screens the good guys from the bad guys. So, we're just saying everybody's out there in the same boat. Is that right?

TANCREDO: We cannot -- there is no sieve, there is no sieve that we can put on the boarder and say...

SANCHEZ: But shouldn't there be?

TANCREDO: No, it's impossible. We have no way of judging something like that. Here's the way we've got of judging it. It is this: Here's the law. Here's the process. Here's the door you can come into this country, over one million a year. We take more immigrants into this country than any other country in the world, take more people on visas than any other country in the world. There is a way to come, the right way, and you cannot ignore it. The minute you do, then just throw the hole thing out and say, doesn't matter.

SANCHEZ: But there is really no right way. The system the way it works now, and you know this, works on a wink and a nod. In other words, we need some people to come in, so we'll kind of look the other way, go ahead. Oh, and if we notice you're there, you shouldn't be here, you're illegal. What is that?

TANCREDO: I will not -- I certainly won't argue with you that we have -- that the federal government, especially, has not done their job. I have been as critical as I possibly can be about that very fact and that it is, in a way, the federal government is culpable. When it does not enforce the law against, especially employers who are the magnets, generally, that are -- now, not in this case, these people came on a visa and overstayed. But for people who are coming across the border illegally, it's mostly to get a job.

And when we don't enforce the law against employers, then you can understand why it's -- there are more and more people doing it. So, our option is really this, you either enforce the law or repeal the law. You do not continue to ignore the law. That's the worst possible way to deal with it.

SANCHEZ: And we both agree on that and so do a lot of other people. So, why then can't the problem be solved? Congressman Tom Tancredo, will you come back?

TANCREDO: You bet, it's been great. I'm happy.

SANCHEZ: It's been great having you here. We appreciate it, sir.

LARRY KING LIVE is coming up in a couple minutes. Larry, who you got tonight?

LARRY KING, LARRY KING LIVE: Hey Rick. We've got an interesting perspective on today's bombshell release of Senator Larry Craig's bathroom bust police tape. Dena McGreevey, the estranged wife of the gay ex-New Jersey governor, Jim McGreevey, will be with us.

Plus a sneak peek at the new season of "Dancing with the Stars" with three of the new stars, Marie Osmond, Jane Seymour and Jennie Garth it's all at the top of the hour -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: There it is. Thank you so much, the King himself. We appreciate it, Larry.

All right, check out this amazing video we want to show now. Look closely, right there. Now, try and see if you can see the hood of the car. I don't know if we can see that again. You can actually see a police officer, there. That's a bad guy, apparently trying to get away and then he tries to run over a police officer who's trying to shoot him. This gets ugly, folk and we're going to show you how it goes down. We'll be right back.


We welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez. In this country we no longer automatically think of an HIV diagnosis as a death sentence, but around the world AIDS still takes millions of lives. You're going to meet somebody now, this is a guy who's working to change that simply by collecting something other people were throwing away. That's part of the reason we call him a "hero."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dave, we're rolling.

JESUS AGUAIS, FOUNDER AID FOR AIDS INTERNATIONAL: The simplest idea It can make the biggest impact. Recycling HIV medicine, how many people are there looking for medicine? And how many people HIV in the United States have no idea that they could save lives with something that is just a leftover for them?


Today, an estimated 80 percent of people living with HIV outside the developed would have no access to healthcare and life-saving drugs.


My name is Jesus Aguais, I'm the founder Aid for AIDS International. I am dedicated to improve the quality of life of people with HIV in developing countries.

In early 1993, I got a job as a counselor in one of the Latino AIDS organizations, here in New York. In terms of healing people abroad, there was very little that you could do. There was no medicine at all, only people with lots of money could come to the United States, the rest, the common people have to die.

In 1996, the first two protease inhibitors got approved, but some people couldn't tolerate it. A treatment that cost $1,200 that's been thrown away. I just knew it was wrong, purely wrong.


Jesus Aguais

Medical Marvel.


I was telling people, why don't you bring it to me. We started using the concept of recycling HIV medicine. All the medicine come from people with HIV around the U.S. and goes abroad.

People can send it directly to us, or if they live in the New York City area, we can pick it up. And we send it on a monthly basis, straight to the patient.


Jesus' work has provided more than $40 million dollars worth of ongoing HIV therapies to over 3,000 individuals in 27 nations.

Ninety-eight percent Aid of AIDS' free services is run by private donation.


This is a matter of saving lives. People need this medicine. We need to get it to them. It's our responsibility.

I see it as what I'm here to do. (BEGIN GRAPHIC)

Do you know a hero?


SANCHEZ: And we're proud to say that there's a lot more about Jesus Aguais on our Website,, that's also where you can nominate a hero of your own. You've got until September 30 to get your nominations in, by the way.

How far would you go to get an ice cold beer, for free? You've got to see this one to believe it. Streaking for brewskys. That's right. We'll be back.


SANCHEZ: All right, welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. Before we go, there's a couple of shots I want to show you. This is just outside Cincinnati, a police officer has his dash-cam, right there. Right? He rams into a suspect. Now, you see the suspect, right there, is backing up into the police. See the cop, right there? He's actually shooting his gun into the car. See if we could see that again, Will, if we could back that up just a little bit. You're going to see. OK, he's running into him. He stops, and now you're going to see, there's a cop with his hand out. See him right there? See, he's got his hand and he's shooting right in the front of the car? That's probably what happened after being hit by the cruiser. The driver floors it, heads for the cop on foot, closing in, and the police start firing, one of them right from top of the hood of that stolen car, as you saw right there. And as a result of him shooting into the car, the driver was killed.

South of Saint Louis, now. Three guys, apparently dying for a case of beer, allegedly trying to rip off a convenient store. I know it's kind of hard to see, but let me turn around. You see him right here, he's kind of covered, you see the legs on top of your screen? Look at the middle right of your screen. Looks like he's doing like a little penguin dance, there. Well, what he's doing is he's trying to get the attention of the cashier so she won't look at his buddy who's stealing her beer. And there they make off with it and the guy goes after then and they were charged, because it's not right to do that with or without clothe.

Thanks so much for being with us. We'll do this again, tomorrow, right here on OUT IN THE OPEN. I'm Rick Sanchez. Now, the King, here's Larry.