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Nancy Grace
Impaired Indiana Mom Lets 5-Year-Old Drive Home
Aired August 31, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: Tonight: Designated driver takes on a whole new meaning, a 5-year-old boy caught behind the wheel of the family car while Mommy sits in the passenger seat incoherent, a 3-year-old toddler also in the back with no car seat and no restraints. And we learn Mommy is already on probation for DUI. Can you say foster care?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mom in Lafayette, Indiana, is in jail after she allegedly had her 5-year-old drive her home because she was intoxicated. Police said the woman had a combination of pain pills and vodka in her system. Witnesses say they couldn`t believe the young boy was behind the wheel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was just so impaired and out of it that she didn`t think anything was wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-four-year-old Holly Schnobrich is being held on $10,000 bond and faces two felony counts. Investigators say she told them she takes a prescription pain killer to calm her down when her kids act up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: And tonight, to Texas, where a nursing student vanishes into thin air, 24-year-old Jessica Birge (ph) last seen after a day of tubing with friends at a popular river lodge. Tonight, police on the lookout for her dark green 2001 Suzuki. Where is Jessica Birge?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friends often reunite on the river for a day of celebration, but for the family of Jessica Birge, there`s no joy over these waters. Jessica`s mother says her daughter met up with junior high school friends for a tubing trip on the Camao (ph) River on August 11. Afterwards, the group ate at a local restaurant and then met up at the Green Outpost River Lodge until about 10:00 o`clock. Birge was last seen wearing a pink bikini. She also has a tattoo of a cherry blossom branch on the back of her neck. And she drives a dark green 2001 Suzuki Grand Vitara (ph), license plate number K99-RNX.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told her friends she had to go to work the next day, and you know, they were all just sure that she was coming straight home. There`s no sign of her. She just disappeared off of the face of this earth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. First tonight, a 5-year-old becomes the designated driver for his mommy, who is under the influence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It all started when Wendy Barrett watched this car speed around the corner and come to a screeching halt in front of her home.
WENDY BARRETT, WITNESS: So I approached the car and the windows came down, and there`s a toddler on his knees, controlling the steering wheel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Barrett says she also saw the boy`s mother in the car, incoherent and visibly impaired.
BARRETT: I asked her, Ma`am, are you OK? What`s going on? Do you need some help? Is this your toddler who`s driving your car? And she admitted to, Yes, but he`s a good driver.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to the affidavit, Schnobrich says she had taken Percocet and vodka. Now the 24-year-old is behind bars, facing neglect and public intoxication charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Good evening. Thanks for being with us. A 24-year-old woman in Indiana says, My son`s a good driver. And he`s 5 years old, while Mommy sits in the passenger seat with her seatbelt on, looks like she had a few Percocet, a little Gray Goose vodka. Unbelievable to me.
But for the latest, let`s go out to Indianapolis, Indiana, to Steve Simpson, talk show host for WIBC Newsradio 1070. Steve, thanks for being with us. What is the latest in this bizarre case?
STEVE SIMPSON, TALK SHOW HOST, WIBC 1070 NEWSRADIO: Well, you pretty much heard it. According to the probable cause affidavit, this 5-year-old, the son of this woman, was in the driver`s seat. We should also point out probably that he wasn`t buckled in, nor was his 3-year-old brother, who was crawling around in the back seat. But Mom apparently was buckled in. And she was in the passenger seat.
As you heard, you know, basically, what happened was this car came to a screeching halt in a subdivision. The woman who lives in the house where the car came up to, she went outside and looked in and saw the 5-year-old in the driver`s seat of this car.
BROOKS: Now, does she live in this neighborhood? Or you know, where was she going?
SIMPSON: Well, who knows? I mean, because the 5-year-old was behind the wheel, so maybe he was going to nursery school. I don`t know exactly where they were headed. One of the other things that -- or one of the things that was known right away is that this woman was not, you know, coherent, according again to the probable cause affidavit, and also by the Tippecanoe County Sheriff`s Department that she was very obviously under the influence of something.
She did tell investigators that she would take Percocet to calm down when her children acted up. The prosecutor in Tippecanoe County has mentioned that, you know, she wasn`t necessarily taking this Percocet, apparently, because she had any kind of physical pain, but rather, she used the excuse that, Well, when the kids act up and I guess I just can`t handle it, allegedly she just took the Percocet.
BROOKS: Oh, that`s nice!
SIMPSON: So she had plenty of them, apparently, in her system.
BROOKS: That`s nice, the seemingly mother of the year, a little Percocet, a little chaser with some Gray Goose, kind of take the edge off of dealing with her 3-year-old and 5-year-old kid, who, it sounds like, have more sense than she does. They`re taking care of Mommy. To me it`s unbelievable.
You know, you mentioned a witness, Wendy Barrett. Let`s listen to what Wendy had to say about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARRETT: I approached the car and the windows came down, and there`s a toddler on his knees, controlling the steering wheel. I asked her, Ma`am, are you OK? What`s going on? Do you need some help? Is this your toddler who`s driving your car? And she admitted to, Yes, but he`s a good driver.
She was so impaired, you couldn`t get anything out of her. And also, I just looked around the corner, it was coming at us like a dart. Is this a delivery driver running late? What`s going on? And all of a sudden, it just slams right here at the -- I mean, it came to an abrupt stop.
Are you driving? Are you letting your son drive? And she was in a seatbelt, which got me. Here`s two toddlers not restrained, but the mother is in a seatbelt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: He`s a good driver. He`s 5-year-old. He`s probably good at driving his big wheel, but not a car. Unbelievable!
I want to go out to our guests from Lafayette, Indiana, special guest Pat Harrington. He is the Tippecanoe County prosecutor. Thanks for being with us, Pat.
PAT HARRINGTON, TIPPECANOE COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Thanks for having me on.
BROOKS: OK, Pat, you`ve got to break all this down to us exactly. We see the picture here of the little boy showing us, you know, exactly -- Well, yes, I was driving, but I couldn`t reach the pedals. Tell me what happened when your deputy got to the scene.
HARRINGTON: Well, by the time the deputy responded, the mother was outside the car, and the neighbors had pretty well taken control of the situation there, actually removed the children and put them in one of the neighbor`s house. She was extremely incoherent, according to the officer on the scene, and she basically repeated the same story that she gave to Wendy, the neighbor that was first to the car.
BROOKS: Now, did she also tell the deputy, who -- the first arriving officer there -- did she also tell him that there was supposed to be somebody else in the car?
HARRINGTON: She gave two different stories, one that an individual named Joe was driving or with her, and then a John was driving, but there was no one else in the car, according, of course, to the neighbors who were first there and saw the car stop. And her son said that no one else was in the car but his brother and his mother.
BROOKS: Did anybody check in the trunk to make sure that Joe or John weren`t in the trunk?
HARRINGTON: Yes, the car was towed and impounded, so there was no one in the trunk.
BROOKS: OK. Take me back to the scene again, if you would. When the officer got there, he spoke to her. Then did he give her any test? Did he give her any -- any -- you know, I was in law enforcement for 26 years and had done this myself. Did he give any stagmus (ph) test? Did he give a roadside breathalyzer test, any of that?
HARRINGTON: Yes, he followed his standard training and attempted to administer the roadside test. But due to her impairment level, she could not follow the instructions. And at one test, she said that she felt very nauseous and thought she was going to vomit. So he discontinued the test and arranged for her to be transported to the hospital for a blood and urine draw.
BROOKS: Nice. And apparently, you know, they do the stagmus test and that tracks your eye movement, and apparently, she didn`t do well on that. And then they did the old, Reach out with your feet together and touch your nose, and apparently, she couldn`t touch her nose at all, either. So maybe the officer had to stop the test for her own safety before she poked her eye out, it seems.
HARRINGTON: Well, that`s the test she said that she thought she was becoming very nauseous, and he discontinued the test at that time. You know, the previous -- the talk show host in Indianapolis, he mentioned where the car was. The car -- the boy actually drove the car in a neighborhood that`s about three quarters of a mile from their actual home. He actually turned and went south off a very busy State Road 26, which is a four-lane highway, and went right into the neighborhood.
BROOKS: So you`re telling me that he was driving on a four-lane highway before he went into this neighborhood?
HARRINGTON: I`m just saying in order for that car to arrive at that location, it had to go State Road 26, turn right or go south into that neighborhood. And the mother`s actual residence is located approximately a half a mile farther out up the road and on the north side of the road.
BROOKS: Did she have any friends or anyone that we know how she wound up in this neighborhood at all?
HARRINGTON: No, we do not. She could not provide any information at the scene, due to her level of impairment, as to where she lived or phone numbers to call or any information that would allow the officer on scene to try to locate a family member.
BROOKS: Now, you say that they took blood and urine at the hospital. Do we know the results of those? And if not, when will they be back?
HARRINGTON: No, the result -- the tests are forwarded to the State Department of Toxicology, and it normally takes a few days to get them back.
BROOKS: When do you expect to have them back?
HARRINGTON: Well, normally, about two to three weeks in Indiana.
BROOKS: Oh, is that right, two to three weeks? Now, if -- when they come back, could she be facing additional charges?
HARRINGTON: Not right at the moment because she`s charged with the two counts of neglect.
BROOKS: Now, the RBT, the roadside breathalyzer test, that is the one where they give -- they administer an RBT, administer basically a breathalyzer test right there on the scene -- was that given to her also?
HARRINGTON: Well, in Indiana, we don`t use a breathalyzer. We use a purple (ph) breath test. It`s battery-operated and it`s not calibrated. So it`s not admissible in a court of law. But that was administered as one of the standard roadside techniques the officer uses to determine the impairment level, and it showed no alcohol in her system.
BROOKS: Very interesting. And I`m going to ask Dr. Marc Siegel about that in a minute.
But let`s go out to the phones first. Becky from Ohio, thanks for being with us. You have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. First of all, I want to thank the young lady for getting involved in this, to take the children away from the problem. Second of all...
BROOKS: And take the keys out of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my goodness! And second of all, the woman is on Percocet?. Why is her doctor giving her Percocet? She should be on something completely different than taking Percocet to calm down. And the welfare system sounds like they don`t get too involved, just like, here in Dover, Ohio. We have that same problem.
BROOKS: Well, you know, that`s a great -- that`s a great question. And I want to go out to Dr. Marc Siegel here in New York. He`s internist and author of "False Alarm," former ER doctor at NYU Bellevue. Dr. Siegel, thanks for being with us. Now, the Percocet -- apparently, she had some kind of knee injury, but do you take Percocet if you can`t deal with your children? Is it an anti-anxiety drug? What exactly is Percocet? And if she mixed it with this Gray Goose, like she said she did, what are the results?
DR. MARC SIEGEL, INTERNIST: Well, Mike, there`s no way that Percocet should be used in this situation. It doesn`t calm the nerves, it`s only for pain. And probably, she was misusing it for pain, as well, because the knee may have actually healed by then. There`s absolutely no indication. And it combines with alcohol in a very bad way. It may be why she was feeling nauseous, dizzy. You know, also, the alcohol suppresses brain function. All of the things you need to drive go out the window with a combination of Percocet and alcohol. Of course, it doesn`t mean the 5- year-old should be driving, but some assigned driver should have been driving.
BROOKS: Well, the designated driver of the 5-year-old, definitely.
I want to go out to Pat Harrington, the Tippecanoe County prosecutor. Pat, can you also tell me, you know, exactly -- there were some other pills that were found in the car, is that correct?
HARRINGTON: That`s correct. The officer on scene located a bottle that was over-the-counter sleep aid medicine. And when he contacted the pharmacist, the pharmacist said it was a form of benadryl. The bottle originally contained 100 count pills. It was bought, according to the mother, two days before this incident, and there were only 14 pills left in the bottle.
BROOKS: So my math says, you know -- did she say that she had consumed all of these pills within the last two days?
HARRINGTON: She had said she`d been taking them since she purchased them, and there were only 14 left.
BROOKS: Oh, man! You know, it just -- the story just gets better and better.
Let`s go out to the phones. Jill from Maine. Thanks for being with us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for answering my call. I was curious, I`ve heard that she`s being charged with neglect. How about child endangerment?
BROOKS: That`s a great question. Go back out to Pat Harrington, the Tippecanoe County prosecutor. What charges is she being charged with exactly? I think there was two felonies and one -- and then also, she had been locked up and she pled guilty to a DUI just recently?
HARRINGTON: Correct. She pled guilty four days before this incident to a misdemeanor OWI (ph) and was placed on probation and her license was suspended. Answering your caller`s question, Indiana, neglect of a dependent includes child endangerment, so that is our state law.
BROOKS: Very nice. Very, very, very nice. I mean, this -- this is just unbelievable.
Let`s unchain the lawyers, or I like to say, uncage the lawyers. We have Susan Moss from New York. She`s a family attorney and child advocate, which we need in this particular case. Alex Sanchez from New York, and from Philadelphia, Kevin Mincey, defense attorney.
Sue Moss, one of the callers just asked about the welfare system. This is unbelievable to me.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: You know, it`s a real simple issue. Your designated driver can`t be in pre-school. Real simple. And for a mother to put her 5-year-old child in this situation absolutely is child abuse, to the extent that she needs to not only lose custody, but perhaps even lose parental rights to this child. Your child of 5 just can`t drive.
BROOKS: No question. OK, Alex Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ,DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, you know the case is pathetic, I admit that. But it doesn`t mean that absolutely nothing can be done on behalf of this woman. You know, this case concerns damage limitation. What do I mean by that? That means that right now, she`s in jail. If she could possibly make bail, my advice to her would be, Don`t make bail. Stay in jail. Let`s send the message to the prosecutor, as well as the judge, that you intend on rehabilitating yourself. And the first thing you need to do is stay in jail, take advantage of some of the programs that are in jail, and let the system and let society know that you`re there to try to take care of your problem.
BROOKS: Well, you know what, Alex? Funny you mention that. You say leave her in jail. Well, that`s exactly where she`s staying. Let`s hear what the grandfather had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very scary (INAUDIBLE) Could have happened because neither of them were restrained. I mean, they were both just crawling around the car. At this point, she`s staying in jail. We`re not bailing her out. We can`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: So, you know, I want to back out to -- Pat Harrington, do we know if she had any other past complaints with child protective services or anything else? Where exactly does she live? There were Minnesota tags on the car, if I`m not mistaken.
HARRINGTON: Well, that`s all being handled by an investigation by our state child protective services, and I don`t have access to that information yet.
BROOKS: Back out to Philadelphia, Kevin Mincey, defense attorney. Kevin, you heard what Alex says and you heard what Susan says. Should she lose these kids? Should they go to her grandparents? I mean, it sounds like she can`t take care of them.
KEVIN MINCEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think you could possibly allow the children to go back with her until she`s gone through a serious treatment program, probably 6 to 12 months, more likely in-patient treatment. That`s what her lawyer needs to be working on, as opposed to having her serve a straight-out jail time. She needs to be already looking for in-patient drug treatment and alcohol treatment where she can serve her time.
BROOKS: That`s -- we`ve heard that before, haven`t we, in-patient treatment so they can -- she can come back, be a productive member of society, and probably drive again with these kids. To me, I don`t know.
Alex, what would you tell her right now, while she`s sitting in her jail cell?
SANCHEZ: I would tell her that, Look, you`ve got a serious problem, and your options at this point are extremely limited. And you know, you got a judge that went out an a limb for you, and now we have to prove to the judge that you mean business about getting your act together. And we need to formulate a plan at this point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARRETT: I approached the car and the windows came down, and there`s a toddler on his knees, controlling the steering wheel. I asked her, Ma`am, are you OK? What`s going on? Do you need some help? Is this your toddler who`s driving your car? And she admitted to, Yes, but he`s a good driver.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Thank God for those neighbors, like Wendy Barrett, who we just heard from. Thank God that they went over to investigate when they saw this car ripping through their neighborhood to go over and take the keys out. Here`s the little boy reenacting, yes, I couldn`t reach the pedals. Couldn`t reach the pedals? You can`t reach over the -- you can`t even see over the steering wheel. He should be on -- you know, on a big wheel, not a big car.
Let`s go out to the phones. Madison from Massachusetts. Thanks for being with us. You have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who has custody of the children?
BROOKS: That`s a good question. I think it`s the grandparents. But let`s go out to Steve Simpson, talk show host from WIBC Newsradio 1070. Do you know who has the children right now, Steve?
SIMPSON: That`s my understanding, is it`s the grandfather. And he has been on television, and in fact, he was the clip you just played a couple of minutes ago, saying that, you know, they`ve got the kids but that they`re not going to bail her out.
BROOKS: Now, has anyone gone out to check out the grandparents to make sure they`re OK to keep the kids?
SIMPSON: That would probably be a question for the prosecutor.
BROOKS: Yes, you know, Pat Harrington, Tippecanoe County prosecutor, is there any kind of procedure, process, that when they`re turned over, even to a relative, that you make sure that it is a fit home for them to go to?
HARRINGTON: Yes, child protective services does a background check and an investigation of the -- in this case, the grandparents, to make sure that they can handle or are a suitable placement for the children during this period of time until they can do their investigation.
BROOKS: Gotcha. Joining from us Los Angeles is Ken Seeley. He`s -- you`ve seen him here before numerous time. He`s an interventionist from A&E`s "Intervention" and founder of Intervention911.com. Ken, thanks for being with us again.
KEN SEELEY, INTERVENTION911.COM: Thanks, Mike.
BROOKS: From what you`re hearing, Ken -- I mean, this is just unbelievable. We hear stories all the time, and you know, nothing surprises us. This really -- I`m really shocked by it. But this girl seems like she`s in trouble.
SEELEY: Well, you know, Mike, I like what they just said. Are the parents able to -- the grandparents available to take care of them or able to take care of these kids? Because before this has happened, there has been some other red flags, I guarantee, that have happened in the past. So are these grandparents able to really take care of these kids? You know, it`s not acceptable to let these people take care of children in this manner, and those kids are lucky they`re alive today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARRETT: She was so impaired, you couldn`t get anything out of her. And also, I just looked around the corner, it was coming at us like a dart. Is this a delivery driver running late? What`s going on? And all of a sudden, it just slams right here at the -- I mean, it came to an abrupt stop.
Are you driving? Are you letting your son drive? And she was in a seatbelt, which got me. Here`s two toddlers not restrained, but the mother is in a seatbelt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: No, this is no delivery driver. This is a 5-year-old designated driver. Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. A 24-year-old woman has her son as a designated driver. The 3-year-old also in the car, no car seat, no restraints, but Mom, she`s sitting in this passenger seat, riding shotgun, all buckled up. But she doesn`t know where she is. She doesn`t know how many people are in the car.
Let`s go out to the phones. Michelle from Kentucky. Thanks for calling. You have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Mike. I was just curious where the father was of these children. Is he concerned at all over the welfare of his children or this situation? I`ve not heard him been mentioned.
BROOKS: You know, that`s a great question. Let`s go out to Ed Miller from "America`s Most Wanted" in LA. Ed, do you know where the father is? Have we heard anything at all about the father?
ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": We haven`t heard anything from the father. But one point I really want to make, if I can, for just a second, Michael, that every parent at some point feels overwhelmed with their children. The solution is not to down a couple of vodkas and tell the kids literally, Go play in traffic.
The solution is you can call the police. You can call the fire. You can call social services. You can call family. You can even tell your neighbors, Hey, look, I`m a little concerned right now. I feel overwhelmed. Can you help me out? That`s the real message that I think we want to convey here, is that there are answers, and the answer is not to let a little kid drive.
BROOKS: Well, and he wasn`t playing in traffic, he was driving in traffic.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we see this car coming at a high rate of speed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His mom, 24-year-old Holly Lynne Schnobrich, admitting to police she`d been drinking vodka and popping sedatives just before she had her son take the wheel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, she reeks of alcohol, lethargic, slurring her words. It`s just scary. Our kids were going back and forth across the street minutes here before this car pulled up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alan Schnobrich knows his ex-daughter-in-law was just convicted of OWI four days ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like I said, she doesn`t drink at home, so I mean -- and she doesn`t do this stuff at home that we`ve seen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously police think that she was impaired.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes, for sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. A 24-year-old mother of two, a 3-year-old and a 5-year-old, driving in the passenger seat while the 5-year-old drives and the 3-year-old sits next to him, according to police reports. You know, when you think about it, these two kids, they`re the victims here.
I want to go out to Dr. Sue Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing." Tell me, Susan, what effect could it have on these kids long-term?
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I don`t think that these kids should remain with this mother. She`s certainly not able to be a mother, and I think we really need something like a nanny 911, so that when parents are overwhelmed, there`s somebody that can come and check on the kids and maybe teach them how to be a better parent. These kids really need a mother and a home that`s going to be stable, and there`s so many kids across the nation who are taking care of their parents because their parents are either drug-addicted or alcoholic.
BROOKS: You know, right now, I`d like to go out to Lafayette, Indiana, a very, very special guest, Brett Gibson. He is the attorney for the 24-year-old mom, Holly Schnobrich. Tell me right now, what kind of defense do you have with this?
BRETT GIBSON, ATTORNEY: Well, Mike, I met with Holly today. And the first thing I want to do is caution people not to pre-judge the facts or the person. This is a young girl. These are obvious serious allegations. And we`ve heard talk about vodka.
BROOKS: Well, we`re not pre-judging. I`m going off of the affidavit, and I`m going off of what witness statements say, so tell me how you can dispute this?
GIBSON: Well, Mike, specifically, there was a portable breath test at the scene that did not detect any alcohol whatsoever.
BROOKS: And you heard what the prosecutor said, that that`s not admissible. In fact, I know that, because I used to do it myself and because it`s only battery-operated. But what about all the things the witnesses said?
GIBSON: Well, again, Mike, it`s early in this case. We`ve yet to see a toxicology report. She`s entered a plea of not guilty. I met with her today. She maintains that she`s innocent and that she has an explanation for the circumstances.
BROOKS: What`s the explanation?
GIBSON: Well, again, Mike, it`s early in this case. She was not intoxicated. She had not consumed any alcohol whatsoever.
BROOKS: OK, what about Percocet? What about the pills that she told the officers she had gotten two days, over-the-counter sleeping pills? The bottle originally contained 100. There were 14 left. Where`d the other 14 go? Did she give them to her children?
GIBSON: And, once again, Mike, she denies that she made those statements. It`s early in the case, and I think there`s going to be more clarity when the toxicology reports are available.
BROOKS: What about the other people, when the deputy, the first arriving officer there at the scene, the deputy said that she told him, well, there`s Joe and John, and she`s Joe personal driver, and there was no one else in the car. How do you explain that?
GIBSON: Well, once again, in the affidavit, there`s probable cause. There`s an indicator that she said she consumed alcohol, and she denies that, and a portable breath test verifies that.
BROOKS: OK, does she deny that she took Percocet? And why was she taking Percocet to deal with the children? And that was a statement that she gave the officer.
GIBSON: Well, again, as far as I know, there`s not a transcript of that statement, and she is -- I`ve met with Holly today...
BROOKS: So you`re calling the officer a liar?
GIBSON: What I`m telling you is Holly has advised me, Mike, that she did not make those statements. And at this point in time, I don`t have the benefit of the officer`s statement or a toxicology report, and those things will become more clear as this case progresses.
BROOKS: Well, you know, I have it right here. And what she said, she said -- and this is from the officer`s report -- she took Percocet for, quote, "when the kids are acting wild," end of quote, so she could, quote, "calm down so I can deal with the kids."
GIBSON: Well, again, Mike, I`ve handled thousands of criminal cases, and I`ve never seen one witness statement when put in the light and subject to cross-examination and other evidence that additional questions don`t arise. And, again, I`ve met with Holly. We`ve reviewed the affidavit of probable cause, which is the evidence that she has at this point, and she denies that she made those statements.
BROOKS: OK.
GIBSON: And when the toxicology report comes back, that`s going to shed additional light on the veracity of that.
BROOKS: Well, OK, help me understand what the Percocet was for. Did she have any kind of physical conditions that she needed to take Percocet for? We heard Dr. Marc Siegel talk about Percocet, and she didn`t just say she was drinking vodka. She said Grey Goose. Do you think the officer made that up, too?
GIBSON: Well, again, there`s a portable breath test to detect presence of alcohol.
BROOKS: I`m talking about the statement. I`m not talking about the breath test!
GIBSON: And that showed zero.
BROOKS: I`m not talking about the breath test. I`m talking about the statement. And what about the witness? You think the witness made this up? She has no axe to grind. And thank God that they were there to take the keys out of the car. She probably saved those two children`s lives.
GIBSON: Well, again, Mike, thank God a portable breath test was administered, and there`s going to be a toxicology report. Because, again, she showed a zero blood alcohol level at the scene. There`s no detection of the presence of alcohol. And again, she denies that she made those statements.
BROOKS: Let me go back out to Lafayette, Indiana, to Pat Harrington. He`s the Tippecanoe County prosecutor. Pat, you`ve heard what Mr. Gibson is saying. What say you?
PAT HARRINGTON, TIPPECANOE PROSECUTOR: Well, I think Mr. Gibson is just trying to represent his client, and you would expect any good defense attorney to follow that line of logic that Mr. Gibson has just stated, and ultimately that`s what courts are for.
BROOKS: You know, and I can`t -- if she was so sober, why was the 5- year-old driving the car? No seatbelts, no restraints, no car seat. And I think, by law, they`re supposed to be in the car seat, just one, little, minor thing.
Let`s go out to the lines. Carla from North Carolina, thanks for calling. You have a question?
CALLER: Yes, I was wondering, what does it take exactly for a child to be taken away for a parent permanently with no chance to be reunited?
BROOKS: We`ll go out to Sue Moss, family attorney and child advocate. Sue, what does it take?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Something exactly like this. I believe this woman was on Percocet. I believe she was taking Grey Goose. She certainly wasn`t spending her time with Mother Goose. But for her to require her 5-year-old to drive is absolutely outrageous. This is worse than a DUI. If that child had hit somebody, God forbid killed somebody, you would have ruined this child`s life, in addition to the victim`s life. It is absolutely ridiculous. The only good news here is that the mother`s name wasn`t Britney.
BROOKS: Michael from Arizona, thanks for calling. You have a question?
CALLER: My question is, how and when can we start taking away the car, instead of the licenses of these people, convicted or have pleaded guilty to DUI?
BROOKS: That`s a great question. You know, I`d like to go out to Alex Sanchez, defense attorney. You know, a lot of places we go, they say, "OK, you`re not going to be able to do this. We`re going to put you on these kind of programs." Now she`s got this second offense, should they take away her car? Why don`t we start doing this, Alex?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, in a lot of jurisdictions - - and in New York especially -- if you get arrested for driving while intoxicated, the police confiscate your car on the spot, and then you have to try to sue to get the car back. They hold onto it for a long protracted period of time. And you may not get it back until the end of the case, and that`s after paying a significant amount of fines. So, in some states, they do, in fact, go and confiscate the car.
BROOKS: Cynthia from Missouri, thanks for being with us. You have a question for us?
CALLER: Yes, the mother said that the 5-year-old was a good driver. That seems to be an opinion. Has he had to do this before? And has anyone asked the boys whether they`ve had to drive Mommy home before? And if they have, can she be charged for those instances, too?
BROOKS: That`s a great question. Ed Miller from "America`s Most Wanted," do we know?
ED MILLER, REPORTER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": I love that question, because, according to police, their opinion is, is that the child has done this before, and that`s why she said he is a good driver, in essence, don`t worry, he`s done this before, he`s a good driver, I trust him, et cetera, et cetera. In the opinion of the police, the child has done this before.
BROOKS: And he had a t-shirt on today that says "I do my own stunts." But when we come back, to central Texas and a desperate search for a missing student nurse. Where is Jessica Birge?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friends often reunite on the river for a day of celebration. But for the family of Jessica Birge, there`s no joy over these waters. Jessica`s mother says her daughter met up with junior high school friends for a tubing trip on the Comal River on August 11th. Afterwards, the group ate at a local restaurant and then met up at the Gruene Outpost River Lodge until about 10:00 a.m. Comal County detectives are investigating the case as a missing person, but they have not ruled out foul play. Right now, they tell us they are following up on leads.
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BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. A beautiful 25-year-old woman disappears after a rafting trip with friends. Help us find Jessica Birge. In fact, Liz, do you have that poster you could put up to show people, this is who we`re looking for. She`s 25 years old, born in 1981, red hair, brown eyes, 5`7", 130. She was last seen wearing a pink bikini.
For the latest in this case, we go out to Alamo Heights, Texas, Michael Board, reporter for WOAI News Radio. What is going on? She`s been missing for 21 days. Give us the latest.
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER: We really don`t know what has happened to this rather attractive young woman. As you said, she`s been missing about three weeks, and there have been absolutely no positive leads in this case. The detectives in Comal County, Texas, have gotten several leads. They thought there was a sighting up near Dallas. They thought there was another sighting here near San Antonio. Both of them turned out to be blank leads.
And there`s been absolutely nothing to this case. It has been dead all along. And what`s really disheartening for the investigators and for the people who are praying that she is still alive is, so far, nobody has used her cell phone. And there has been no transactions on her bank accounts, two signs that, if she is still alive, if she is still with us and out there somewhere, you know, it`s not looking good.
BROOKS: And we hold out hope. Her family holds out hope. And also, Michael, she was in a car. Tell us a little bit about the vehicle.
BOARD: It is a dark green Suzuki Grand Vitara. It`s sort of a small little SUV-type thing, 2001, so it`s a pretty new car, Texas license plates K99-RNX. And absolutely no sightings of this car whatsoever.
BROOKS: Now, police, you say, they`ve gotten a number of leads. This is the car we`re looking for, Texas registration, K99-R, Romeo, N, X-ray. Dark green, 2001 Suzuki Grand Vitara. If anyone has seen any vehicle like this, please give law enforcement a call. The Comal County sheriffs deputies can be reached at 830-620-3400. And there`s also two sites set up, search site centers, area code 210-650-0428 or 800-547-4435. Please help us find this beautiful woman, Jessica Birge.
Tonight, we have a very, very special guest with us. This is just a very, very sad story. Out of San Antonio, I want to welcome Cindy Weachter. She`s the mother of Jessica Birge. Thanks so much for being with us, Cindy.
CINDY WEACHTER, MOTHER OF MISSING NURSING STUDENT: Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.
BROOKS: And I think by having this on, this is what we need to do. These are the kind of things we need to do to keep this in the public`s eye, and I`m glad that the NANCY GRACE show can do that for you and your family.
WEACHTER: So am I. I`m very grateful.
BROOKS: So help put together a little timeline if you would, Cindy. She went out rafting. Tell me when the last time you saw her was, and exactly what happened, where she was. Just put it all together for us, if you will.
WEACHTER: Well, the last time that we saw Jessica was the day before the day that she went rafting. We were getting ready to go on a camping trip down to the coast. We were having a family outing that weekend. And Jessica wasn`t going to go with us because she had just started to work at a new job, and she was going to go to work, and she had also heard from an old junior high school friend, and they had agreed to get together on the river and go tubing over the weekend.
So the last time I saw Jessica was, she was getting ready to go out the door for work. I kissed her good-bye. I told her that I loved her, told her, "Good luck at work" that night, and have a good time the next day, and "be careful."
BROOKS: Now, you said that was the last time you saw her. She lived with you?
WEACHTER: Yes, she was living at home with us because she was a student going to UTSA here in San Antonio. And she was living at home. We were kind of helping her out with expenses, so that she could pay her tuition costs, and she was working full-time as a waitress.
BROOKS: Sure, understandable, someone that age trying to save up a little money, live with mom and dad. That`s fantastic. She didn`t mind that, 25-year-olds, some people would be independent, "No, I`m not living with mom and dad," but at least she had that sense enough to do that and to have you all as a support system.
Now, when you last saw her, how was her state of mind? Was she OK? Did she seem like she was having any kind of problems at all?
WEACHTER: Well, the last time I saw her, I think she was very happy. She was very excited about her new job; it was one that she wanted very much. She was looking very much forward to reuniting with her friends the next day and going on the tubing trip. So I think she was in a very good state of mind.
BROOKS: Now, apparently, she wasn`t reported missing for four days. Why was that?
WEACHTER: Well, unfortunately, as I said, we were going on a camping trip, and we didn`t come home from the camping trip until late Monday evening. And actually, I thought she had been at work Monday evening, and she worked until late, usually 2:00 a.m. in the morning. And sometimes if she worked late she stayed with a friend overnight, so when she didn`t come home that night, you know, I wasn`t surprised. I thought she had worked and stayed with a friend, and I expected her home the next night when I got home from work. And she wasn`t home, so I figured, well, she was at work.
And I called work, and I asked she was in that night, and they said no, so I did expect to see her home. And when I woke up in the morning, she wasn`t at home. So I immediately got on the phone, and I called her best friend, who lives in Florida, to see if she`d heard from Jessica, because they always keep in contact with each other.
BROOKS: Right, sure.
WEACHTER: And she said that she hadn`t and that she was kind of worried because she hadn`t heard from Jessica. And so I then called work to find out, you know, when they had last seen her. And when I found out that she hadn`t reported for work on Sunday as expected, I immediately knew that something was wrong.
BROOKS: Absolutely.
WEACHTER: And so, as soon as I found that out, I was at work when I found that out, and came home that evening, did some looking around, and called the Comal County sheriff`s office, and we filed a missing report.
BROOKS: Well, we want to go out to the lines. Alexa from Washington, thanks for being with us. You have a question?
CALLER: Hi, I was wondering if the missing nursing student has any ex-boyfriend or boyfriend that she might have had trouble with?
BROOKS: Ed Miller from "America`s Most Wanted," have you heard anything at all like that?
MILLER: No, not at all. But my sources do tell me, as painful as this may be to her family, that she and her friends had been drinking, and had been drinking perhaps a little too much, and that she did climb behind the wheel of that vehicle of hers. I don`t want to say intoxicated but definitely, according to police, had had a few too many drinks, which of course changes the entire scenario. And that is why they`ve been looking in the water, especially along the Guadalupe River, to see whether or not her vehicle went in the water. We can remind you about another young woman, Mahalia Xiong in Wisconsin, who disappeared after leaving a bar, and they searched and searched and searched for her vehicle, and it ended up in the water.
BROOKS: Ed, quickly, it`s a 20-mile route from where she was to where she was going home. Is there water along that route that they`re searching?
MILLER: Definitely. The Guadalupe River, and there are several other river crossings, places where her vehicle could have gone in the water.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROOKS: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Michael Vick speaking out for the first time since the charges came down that he actually murdered innocent dogs.
MICHAEL VICK, NFL PRO QUARTERBACK: In this situation, I found Jesus and asked him for forgiveness.
GRACE: As you see once again, Christ getting dragged into the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Michael was my client, I would have him make a very huge donation to every animal society there is.
GRACE: Oh, blah, blah. That`s easy for him to take out his checkbook. I want answers, Cohen!
After pleading guilty, Craig now says Lady Justice tricked him, that he didn`t do it.
SEN. LARRY CRAIG (R), IDAHO: I am not gay. I don`t do these kind of things, and I don`t care what the officer...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: ... you shouldn`t be out to entrap people either.
GRACE: Sir, you have not been charged with being gay; that`s not a crime. Soliciting sex in a public bathroom? That is a crime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Liza Murphy and her husband had an unfortunate marriage. Because of her psychiatric condition, their marriage was a roller coaster.
GRACE: Whoa, wait a minute, isn`t he the one that tried to commit suicide?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he is. He is the one who tried to commit suicide.
GRACE: Why is he talking about her condition if she`s the problem?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s the one who`s missing, and we`re offering you a valid and logical alternative to the fact that she suffered foul play at the hands of her husband. It`s an answer to the question.
GRACE: Are you going to take a poly or not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will not allow him to take any tests on machine of uncertain reliability.
GRACE: So the answer is no. Thank you, that was beautiful!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant First Class Michael Tully, just 33, from Falls Creek, Pennsylvania. On his second tour of duty, Tully also served in the Marine Corps. He received the Army Commendation Medal, National Defense Service Medal, the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. He loved the outdoors, sports cars, scuba diving and speaking Indonesian. He leaves behind grieving parents, John and Dolores, a widow, Heather, a son, Slade, brother, John, sister, Heather. Michael Tully, American hero.
Thank you to all our guests. Our biggest thank you to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, stay safe.
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