Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Search Continues in Utah for Missing BYU Coed

Aired September 06, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, day eight in the search for 22-year-old BYU coed Camille Cleverley, vanishing into thin air, Provo, Utah, the BYU senior last seen leaving her apartment on a silver and purple Schwinn. Headlines tonight, the FBI now brought in, as police conduct interviews, questioning up to 40 people, intense questioning. With no surveillance video to go on, police still tracing Cleverley`s debit card. It was used at a local convenience store after she goes missing. And police hone in on a local car wash for possible evidence connected to the disappearance. All the while, will a new sighting help crack the case? Tonight, where is Camille Cleverley?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... the case of a missing student from Brigham Young University. Utah police -- they say they have now interviewed more than 40 about Camille Cleverley`s disappearance, and they`re also questioning dozens of sex offenders, but shot down early reports that they had been focusing on two people of interest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn`t use the terminology "suspect." If you want to use "person of interest," everyone is interesting to us if they had any contact with Camille and could supply us with any information of where she might be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are now looking at surveillance tapes of businesses in the area where Cleverley was seen -- last seen last week, riding her bike. Hundreds of volunteers and police have been searching for her, focusing mainly on bike trails in the Provo area. The FBI is also joining the search.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight: Her 9-month-old baby drowns in the family tub as it runs over, completely flooding the bathroom floor, but Mommy was too busy to notice. Why? She was in the den doing a dope deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The drowning death of a toddler inside this Hillsborough County mobile home has landed the child`s mother in jail. Twenty-year-old Katrina Brooks (ph) is now facing aggravated manslaughter charges after leaving her 9-month-old son unattended in a tub with his 2- year-old sister.

Initially, the sheriff`s office treated the child`s death as an accidental drowning after the mother said she had only left the baby in the tub for a few minutes. But after speaking to a witness, investigators determined that the child had been in the water much longer. Investigators say that witness came over to the mobile home to set up a drug deal with the mother, a deal that apparently left her distracted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First, a search by air, by water and on rugged terrain. Where is Camille Cleverley?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been a week since anyone has seen Camille Cleverley here in Provo, Utah, and certainly, her disappearance remains puzzling as to what happened to her. She`s 22 years old. She is a senior at Brigham Young University here. She`s also originally from Boise, Idaho. And again, she was supposed to start her classes at the university on Tuesday, and she did not show up. It was last Thursday when Camille was last seen riding her bicycle on the BYU campus. Her family did report her missing to the police here Saturday, and ever since then, efforts have been under way to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Thursday at about -- between 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM, a co-worker believes -- he`s very, very positive that he saw Camille riding her bicycle on Ninth East in the area of 1650 North, which would be in the area of the LDS church (INAUDIBLE) She was riding north. He was positive to the point that it was her that he was going to swing back and engage in conversation with her, and he decided not to. He, being a co- worker and being so extremely positive it was her, we feel very comfortable that that was when she was seen on Thursday afternoon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Where is the 22-year-old Brigham Young coed? Straight out to Marco Ortiz with KTVX. What can you tell me about this sighting on Thursday?

MARCO ORTIZ, KTVX: Well, it was a person -- a fellow classmate that saw her on her bicycle. It was about 5:00, 6:00 o`clock in the evening, riding on the east end of campus, near the Mormon training -- the missionary training center here in Provo. In fact, police were telling us today that that person wanted to even go and talk to her but was not able to catch up to her in time. So we know one thing, is that she was there Thursday night, riding her bicycle, in the same neighborhood of where she lives. And after that, no one has really been able to see her since then.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez with Court TV. Jean, I understand that there is a man and a woman specifically that police are questioning, although they are not calling them suspects. They are not calling them persons of interest. But a recent report we have yet to confirm says they are set to take a polygraph?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Set, but police have said that no one has taken an actual polygraph test now. And it was reported all through the day that there were two people, a man and a woman. Police backtracked on that late today, though, and said that they are talking with several people who were the last ones to be around or even to talk to Camille.

GRACE: You know -- back to you, Marco Ortiz -- it`s my understanding, although this sighting was apparently near her neighborhood -- didn`t she routinely go take her bike down into the canyons?

ORTIZ: Well, that`s one of the things that her boyfriend was telling us earlier. She likes to ride her bike. One of the things, though, is that she`s kind of a loner. She goes by herself everywhere, and she travels by her bicycle everywhere out here in the Provo area. She likes to ride along the canyon trails. She likes to ride along the river walk area here in Provo city, as well. So that`s why the searches have been all over this area. And talking with police today, they`ve done an incredible job of searching for this 22-year-old coed, but still no sighting of Camille.

GRACE: You know -- back to you, Jean Casarez -- I am very disturbed at this -- I believe it`s a Crest (ph) grocery store, that they actually have dummy cameras.

CASAREZ: Yes.

GRACE: Dummy cameras?

CASAREZ: Right. Exactly. What you`re saying is her debit card was used on Friday, the day after she went missing. They had cameras. They were dummy cameras. That debit camera actually -- the card actually purchased doughnuts and energy drinks. And it looks like there were two drinks. Now, the question is, who used the card? Did a PIN number have to be used, or could it be used on credit? And if you`re one person purchasing it, why do you purchase two drinks?

GRACE: To Marco Ortiz with KTVX. It`s my understanding it was a debit card, that she had to use her PIN.

ORTIZ: Yes. And police also confirmed today that that debit -- the PIN number was used. And the clerk was questioned extensively, and police tell us that that clerk remembers that it was a female, but can`t be sure that it was Camille.

And regarding those dummies, you see those in a lot of businesses all over here in Utah and perhaps in other parts of the states. They`re there to perhaps just make the customer beware, but actually, police a lot of times frustrated with these dummy surveillance cameras.

GRACE: Make the customer beware? Sounds more like make the customer have a false sense of security. I think that`s totally misleading. And now when we really need that video, we don`t have it.

Another thing -- out to Tom Shamshak, private investigator, joining us out of Boston. You know, you`re a pro at this. Every time I ever had to log in when I was working my way through school to a cash register, you had to put in an ID number. So don`t we know the clerk that rang up the sale? And she/he can`t remember, after looking at a picture, whether it was Camille, Tom?

TOM SHAMSHAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, with the passage -- yes, well, with the passage of time, you know, he could have a fuzzy memory there. But I think what should be going on here is if she was a recreational rider aggressively and she purchased those energy drinks, she could have found a new trail. Maybe that lies in her hard drive. I`m sure that law enforcement is doing that now.

But what I found interesting here was that this young woman did not take her cell phone with her back to school. And couple that with the history of what they call homesickness, or as I would interpret that, depression, she may be out there contemplating, you know, does she want to go back to school, does she want to pursue this missionary thing. So I know that...

GRACE: Hey, Tom, Tom, you think she`s contemplating on six doughnuts?

SHAMSHAK: On what?

GRACE: Six doughnuts. You can`t live that long off six doughnuts.

SHAMSHAK: No, no, you can`t. But I mean, she may be, you know -- I`ve investigated quite a few of these cases like this. And who knows if she hasn`t, you know, gone and acquired some additional foodstuffs from other people. I mean, she could -- as I see it -- these scenarios, she`s either injured herself and she`s laying someplace, or she was abducted. And the police are doing the requisite research of the sexual offenders. And these two people of interest or other people of interest, that will take a while to go.

GRACE: Jean, what can you tell me about this alleged homesickness that Tom Shamshak brought up?

CASAREZ: Her family has said that she was homesick. She was Idaho. She was going to school in Utah. She was homesick. There are reports she had bouts of depression, so you could say...

GRACE: Well, everybody`s homesick. I`ve been homesick for 11 years.

CASAREZ: Well, maybe that`s a nice way of the family saying that it was a type of depression. But she dealt with it in the normal way -- counseling, medication, et cetera. But the fact is, Nancy, the debit card was only used once. I think you were just alluding to this. And a person has to eat, and it was used almost a week ago. It`ll be a week ago tomorrow.

GRACE: Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychotherapist, homesickness -- that doesn`t equal depression. Why are we so willing to say this girl was depressed, and you know, we`re alluding to she jumped off a cliff? I`m not buying that.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Actually, I think there could be a possible link between depression and what might have happened to her. And that is, when college kids become depressed, often they exercise obsessively. They`ll ride their bikes around. They`ll run around a track. It might be -- because she left her house shortly after noon, as I understand it, and was sighted between 5:00 and 6:00. That`s many hours that she was riding around.

And could it be that a sexual predator in that area, waiting for a college student, had noticed her over these many hours of exercising? That is the only link I can see between depression and her possible disappearance.

GRACE: There on the scene at Provo, Utah, Marco Ortiz with KTVX. Speaking of sexual predators, have you pulled up the map to see registered sex offenders? And have police questioned them?

ORTIZ: Well, apparently, police are telling us that they are questioning these. And if you look up at the map in Provo, you`ll see that they`re dotted all throughout the entire area, some in that neighborhood.

GRACE: We`re showing that right now, Marco. There are, to our count, 129 registered sex offenders right in the area. Go ahead, Marco.

ORTIZ: Yes. There are somewhere around the -- she`s living somewhere around the 700 North, 700 East area. I`ve not been able to pull up the map, so I`m kind of at a disadvantage here. But if your map is that detailed, you can see whether or not there are any sex offenders in that list. So that`s one of the things that police are -- you know, in any investigation, they want to take a look at these people and see where they`ve been lately.

GRACE: I want to get back to these two people that are allegedly going to take a polygraph, a man and a woman. What do you know about that, Marco?

ORTIZ: Well, I`ve been listening to that, and police today are saying that no one has taken a polygraph test. And in regards to that man and the woman, once again -- and I think somebody has alluded to this -- no one is a person of interest. They`re bringing everybody in -- the family, the brother, the sisters, neighbors, people who live in that area, and they`re questioning them. But no one has been elevated to a suspect, no one required to take a polygraph test.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Beverly in New York. Hi, Beverly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations. And I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. I was going to ask you about her boyfriend. Did they have any problems in their relationship?

GRACE: Not to my understanding. Let`s go out to Margaret Sperry. She`s a Cleverley family friend. She`s the mother of Camille`s boyfriend. She knows Camille very well. To my understanding, your son has been completely cooperative, even taking a voice stress test.

MARGARET SPERRY, MOTHER OF MISSING STUDENT`S BOYFRIEND: That`s right.

GRACE: Tell me about her. Tell me about Camille, the girl.

SPERRY: Well, we`ve known her -- our family has known her for about four-and-a-half months now, since David started dating her. And -- oh, my voice is choking up already! We just absolutely adore her. She`s just a sweet, loving girl. She`s soft spoken and has an infectious smile and laugh.

We just -- we just celebrated her birthday here about -- on the 18th of August. We had a little party over at our house after David and Camille both got done with their work. And she was just so excited to open up her presents and everything. She`s just an angel and lights up the room when - - you know, our whole family -- I`ve got four young people that live here - - I mean, my children, that live here at home. They`re all either working or going to school. And she just fits right in. She`s blond and blue eyes, like my four girls are, and just fits right into the family. We all just have a really good time together.

She`s never, ever shown any signs of depression or anything like that at all ever over here. And she`s over here quite a bit. She`s over here several times a week, you know, with David. And we just have an enjoyable time together. It is just heartbreaking.

GRACE: Ms. Sperry, you said when she and David finished their work. Was she going to school and working at a job?

SPERRY: Right. Right.

GRACE: What was her job?

SPERRY: Her job, I believe, was janitorial work at the Brigham Young University library. She was doing custodial work, you know, besides going to school.

GRACE: Right. Sounds like one of those student work programs...

SPERRY: Right. Right.

GRACE: ... where you work in the cafeteria or the library.

SPERRY: Yes. She was just really happy to have gotten a job. She had a job at, I believe, Apex (ph) Alarms or something before that, but the hours were really not to -- I mean, they`re really late at night and things. And so she was -- I remember when she came over and told us when she got the job at BYU, she was so excited to be there on campus. And she moved from the area we`re living on to be closer to campus, so she really hasn`t been in that new area that long.

GRACE: With us tonight, the mother of Camille`s boyfriend, now a friend of Camille`s, as well, telling us about her.

We`ve heard a lot about the search. We`ve heard a lot about her disappearance. Speaking of the search, I want to go out to Damon Talbot. He`s the operations manager of the search. Damon, what can you tell us about the search? What is being done to find Camille?

DAMON TALBOT, OPERATIONS MANAGER, DESTINY SEARCH: Well, good evening, Nancy. Well, we`ve been putting out a lot of volunteer effort into the search progress. Provo police have us up in the Provo Canyon area because we`re able to mobilize a lot of volunteers that cover a lot type of ground and they don`t have that type of resources. Last count, when I left today, we had 100 volunteers out today and almost 200 yesterday. So we`ve covered a lot of area in that canyon and we`re continuing to do so.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Sharon in Iowa. Hi, Sharon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, love. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Camille have a cell phone? And if she did, have they gotten any pings from it?

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: You know, she had a cell phone, but she left it in Idaho and so she didn`t have it with her in Utah. And you know, Nancy, it is amazing how helpful a cell phone can be because how many crimes have been solved because you hear the pings, right, and you can find the person? She didn`t have one.

GRACE: Julie in Kansas. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. If she used her debit/credit card for the purchase, would she not have had to sign for that purchase?

GRACE: Did not have to sign for it. It`s kind of like a credit card. But this particular debit card, Julie, she did have to punch in her ID. And I don`t know if you -- her PIN number. I don`t know if you heard this at the top of the show, this Crest -- like the toothpaste -- Crest convenience store, supermarket, had dummy cameras, dummy surveillance cameras, which, frankly, should just be outlawed.

I want to unleash the lawyers quickly. Richard Herman out of New York, John Burris out of San Francisco. To Richard Herman. I`ve got to give credit to the boyfriend for taking that voice stress test. A lot of boyfriends and husbands and live-ins kind of lay low. You can`t find them when the girl goes missing.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you`re right, Nancy. But you know, in light of the Michael Vick case, I don`t think you should be "unleashing" your lawyers these days. So...

GRACE: Get to the point.

HERMAN: OK. He did. He had a lot of guts to take that test. He obviously has nothing to hide. And passed it. And he`s got nothing to hide. He`s going to cooperate and try...

GRACE: What about it, John Burris? Do you agree or disagree he should have taken the test?

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I agree with that. I mean, after all, he -- you know, he has nothing to hide. He wants to be helpful. I think it was important to try to rule himself out because, normally, people would suspect him. So I thought it was a good thing on his part.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Camille was last seen by a roommate on Thursday. But today, Provo police discovered her debit card was used Friday morning at this Crest convenience store. The question now is who used the card, store clerks saying they`re not sure who made the purchase, and police claim there`s no surveillance video. But whoever it was bought a pack of chocolate doughnuts and a couple drinks. It`s a lead, some evidence, but not enough to answer the most pressing question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Very disturbing that in that Crest grocery store, convenience store, they had cameras up, but they were dummy cameras that didn`t really record anything. We called them for a comment. They had nothing to say.

Out to the lines. Marie in New Jersey. Hi, Marie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. And congratulations.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if the person who last saw her riding the bike, and he didn`t turn around to go back, if he had been questioned in any way or given a polygraph.

GRACE: Excellent question. To Marco Ortiz, KTVX. What can you tell me about this guy?

ORTIZ: This person did spot her going on the bicycle. He himself tried to catch up to her, but she was already gone. Whether or not -- I don`t believe that he has been given a polygraph test whatsoever. No one, according to police, has been given a polygraph test in this investigation.

GRACE: Out to Emily Morgan (ph), reporter with "The Brigham Young Daily Universe." Emily, thank you for being with us. What are the students at Brigham Young doing to try to find her?

EMILY MORGAN, "BRIGHAM YOUNG DAILY UNIVERSE": Mostly, they said that they`ve been paying attention to flyers. Flyers have been posted all over campus, and they said that they`ve been paying attention and trying to look around and see if they see anyone that looks like her or might resemble her in any way, see if they can identify her and help the police in that investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: we are committed to finding Camille. We have a daughter, a sister, a friend that is missing. We have a community that cares. We want to find her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Where is the 22-year-old Brigham Young University coed?

Out to the lines. Leah in Georgia. Hi, Leah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Nancy. I was wondering if anybody had given thought to the fact that she might be a victim of one of these mountain lion attacks. Someone said earlier that she possibly could have took a wilderness trail.

GRACE: You know what? She has biked through these canyons frequently. I wouldn`t be surprised if she had biked through them this time, or was intending to. And Jean, in addition to where she normally biked, if you could fill us in on that, what about the car wash?

CASAREZ: Well, there`s a car wash. Police investigators went there and they searched they drain and a trashcan in one of the washers. But they said late today...

GRACE: There`s the car wash right there.

CASAREZ: There it is. And they said late today, though, that nothing of evidentiary value came from that. But something or someone led them to that car wash, and we don`t know what, at this point.

GRACE: Well, what about the terrain?

CASAREZ: The terrain -- it`s a canyon, right? When you think of canyon, what do you think? You think drop-offs, you think mountain lions, you think all of that. So I think there`s a possibility that nobody one else was involved in this, just she alone.

GRACE: When we come back: Why did a 9-month-old baby boy drown in the family tub? Because Mommy is in the next room planning a dope deal, says Florida police.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this home on Tom Folsom Road in Thonotosassa, the lives of a young mother and her two children changed forever. Nine- month-old Gene Vincent Kent drowned in the bathtub while his 2-year-old big sister sat in the tub waiting for mom.

Not only were the two kids left alone in the bathroom here, but their mother was in another room talking to someone about buying marijuana for nearly 30 minutes while the kids were in the tub, with the water filling, eventually overflowing. Investigators say, when Brooks found her son, he was already gone. She desperately ran across the street to her neighbor`s mobile home for help, but neither he nor paramedics could save little Gene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Katrina has just been absolutely devastated by it. I mean, she still walks around, you can see it in her eyes when she`s talking to you. We went to the funeral a couple weeks ago, and there`s this sadness about her. I mean, she doesn`t even have to say it. You can see it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Eben Brown with News Radio 970 WFLA, not to be cynical, but when you`re smoking pot every day, how do I know she`s just not stoned?

EBEN BROWN, NEWSRADIO 970 WFLA: It`s hard to know, but she did admit to being a regular drug user, Nancy. And she also admitted to discussing with her aunt, I believe it was, where are they going to go find their next drug deal, so -- while the kids are in the tub.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Richard Herman, John Burris, John Burris, in fact, what she told police, in addition to her getting high on pot every single day of her life, she started off by saying she was only gone two or three minutes. B.S. That was off the B.S.-o-meter chart. Turns out the police put together a timeline where she was in there planning a dope deal for over half an hour. Let`s see, that is a "Seinfeld" episode, that`s a whole evening news, that`s the 11:00 news, while the kids are in the tub, two of them, a 9-month-old and a 2-year-old. So she essentially lied to police.

JOHN BURRIS, FMR. PROSECUTOR, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, you don`t know if it`s a lie or not. She obviously didn`t have the time correct given the data that we have. But I still don`t think this is an intentional act that justifies aggravated manslaughter. Remember manslaughter is the intentional act of killing someone. There`s no question she`s negligent...

GRACE: That would be murder. Murder is the intentional act.

BURRIS: No, an intentional act for manslaughter is what that is, obviously sudden quarrel, heat of passion, et cetera.

GRACE: That`s not intent to kill.

BURRIS: This isn`t that. That is an intent to kill.

GRACE: No, manslaughter...

(CROSSTALK)

BURRIS: Wait a minute. You haven`t practiced -- manslaughter is a lesser offense, but it`s still an intent to kill based upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion. This is a negligent act. I`m certain about this, Nancy. I`m absolutely certain.

GRACE: I`m sure you think you are. What about it, Jean Casarez?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: It`s culpable negligence, is what it is.

BURRIS: Well, sure, it`s negligence.

CASAREZ: But it`s culpable negligence. It`s not intent to kill.

GRACE: OK, John Burris, you have tried many, many times and succeeded, I have to admit, in getting murder cases dropped down to manslaughter because there`s not the same intent. But I would argue, to you, Richard Herman, that there was intent, intent to do something extremely negligent. Put two children, a 2-year-old and a 9-month-old, in a tub and leave the room for 30 minutes. The baby is helpless, helpless in a tub of water.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, that was ridiculous, and this poor woman is going to live with this the rest of her life. The criminal pathology on the autopsy showed 20 minutes that the baby had been underwater there. And, you know, let`s just not give the impression that this was a palatial estate. I mean, this was a mobile home. She may have been able to touch the door to the bathroom from the front door of the house.

GRACE: That makes it worse to me. All she had to do was reach her head around the corner and look in, for God sake. Now the baby`s dead.

HERMAN: It was negligent. There`s no intent here to harm this little child. This woman is going to suffer the rest of her life. We`ve got to give her a break here. I know it`s hard to see. You`ve got to give this woman a break. This poor boy is gone, and she`s got to live with this.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I`m not trusting on her guilt to be the appropriate punishment. Out to the lines, Tammy in Ohio. Hi, Tammy.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy, how are you tonight?

GRACE: I`m hanging in there, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: I want to know if this mother ever had any other problems before with (INAUDIBLE) and what`s going to happen to this poor 2-year-old that watched their little one dying in front of them?

GRACE: What about it, Jean?

CASAREZ: She`s had two previous charges in 2006 of writing bad checks, so different from this.

GRACE: OK, no DFCS, Department of Family and Children Services coming out. What about it, Eben Brown?

BROWN: Just those prior convictions in 2006, before this specific child was born -- or prior arrests, excuse me, for writing bad checks. Other than that, no problems with the law that we`re aware of.

GRACE: Well, you don`t count getting high on pot every single day of your life and blurting it out to police as a little bit of a problem?

BROWN: Well, there was no arrest record on that, so that`s what we`re going on.

GRACE: So it didn`t happen? So it didn`t happen, right, Eben?

BROWN: I don`t know if it happened or didn`t happen, but we`re talking about what`s in her arrests.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: She admitted to it, but we`re talking about her arrest record.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Was she stoned at the time this happened?

BROWN: She admits she was stoned at the time this happened.

GRACE: Oh, god. You know, Herman and Burris, you really are something. The woman is high as a kite on pot, stoned out of the Stone Ages, and you`re telling me -- that`s why she didn`t have any intent, she was too stoned to have any intent.

BURRIS: Well, no one has the intent to kill a baby. I mean, you wouldn`t think she`d have the intent to kill her own baby.

GRACE: Right, OK, I guess people are just too good and innocent to kill their own baby, Brian Peterson, Amy Grossberg, Melissa Drexler, rock mom, Dana Lacy (ph), Andrea Yates, yes, nobody would do anything that.

BURRIS: That`s not this kind of case, though, clearly.

GRACE: Trenny, why is it that everyone wants to defend the mom, who is stoned out of her brains, while the baby drowns?

TRENNY STOVALL, CHILD CUSTODY ADVOCATE: You`re asking the wrong person that question. I have no idea why anybody even cares what her excuse is. In Florida, the only defense that I`ve been able to find would have been excusable homicide, which would have said, by committing some lawful act, the child accidentally died. None of that occurred here. She neglectfully left her child in that bathtub. That is the beginning of the charge of reckless, willful, wanton disregard for this child. It`s culpable neglect. That is the element of aggravated manslaughter. She should do the 30 years, period.

GRACE: You know, Trenny, I`ve learned a lot lately by -- I`ve been cruising the Internet. Yes, I`m all over Babies R Us, Toys.com, the whole thing.

STOVALL: Been there, right.

GRACE: What about those little rings with suction cups on the bottom that, if you put the baby in, even when you`re there, if you put the baby in the water, you`re supposed to have that little ring around them so they can`t...

STOVALL: There is no -- there is nothing that should have been in that tub, in that bathroom but the mother. She should never have left that baby alone without being present. There`s no excuse, none.

GRACE: It just seems to me, Trenny, that if you`re supposed to put them in that ring even when you`re sitting there with them, to leave one unattended -- and you know the defense at trial is going to be, "She was stoned." That`s going to be the defense, Trenny.

STOVALL: That`s not any kind of a defense. That was an intentional act. She got high on purpose. That is not an excuse for killing your child.

GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact, Richard Herman, I know you`re going to have to agree with me on this one. Voluntary intoxication or use of drugs is not a defense under the law, unless in some jurisdictions you`re totally comatose at the time of the crime, which she was not, because she was in the den trying to plan a dope deal, doing a dope deal for more pot.

HERMAN: Well, first of all, we don`t know if she was doing a dope deal. And, second of all...

GRACE: I thought she was in the other room speaking to a relative about where they`re going to get pot to get stoned that day.

HERMAN: That`s the relative, the cooperating witness against her. So we don`t know the nature of that conversation. And we don`t know how high she was either, Nancy.

(CROSSTALK)

HERMAN: There`s no data showing how loaded she was that day. We just don`t know. This is a tragedy. It`s absolutely a tragedy. Nancy, you know this case is not going to trial. This is not going to trial. And she`s not getting 30 years, either.

GRACE: Well, says you. Out to Dr. Stephen Cohle, chief medical examiner in Kent County and author, he`s joining us from Grand Rapids, Michigan. He is an expert in his field. Doctor, thank you for being with us. How can you determine -- I know how you determine that someone drowned to death, but explain that, as well. But how can you determine how long the child was submerged?

DR. STEPHEN COHLE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, there`s no scientific way to prove how long the child is submerged, at least independent of getting the history. The first thing we do in a death investigation is to obtain the information as to how the death occurred, including scene information, in this case, the bathtub. And I believe that the medical examiners there in Hillsborough County probably took the history that they were given from the police, namely that the child was left unattended for 25 minutes or so.

There may have been some secondary supportive findings, such as wrinkling of the skin or the palms and soles, that can occur with prolonged immersion. And this usually takes five to ten minutes at least. They probably had that finding, plus the history. But I don`t think there`s any other way they could have said, well, this child was underwater for, say, 20 minutes as opposed to five minutes or 25 or 30 minutes.

GRACE: Eben, it`s my understanding that detectives have pieced together a timeline, even given what Dr. Cohle has just told us, that they`ve been able to piece together a timeline.

BROWN: The investigators from the Hillsborough County sheriff`s office, the medical examiner`s office, have put together a timeline, saying that it was about a 25-minute window from when the child went into the tub until they realized that he was dead or in trouble.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Initially when the deputies first got there, she just said he`d been in there for just a few minutes. He was 9 months old. He couldn`t even sit up or anything by himself anyway, so he should not have been in the tub left for any length of time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The tub was actually filling up, and it wasn`t until the tub overflowed, had actually filled up all the way, overflowed onto the floor that they heard it, and that`s when Brooks ran back in there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, that`s really interesting that she said he couldn`t sit up. Out to Dr. Cohle, aren`t they supposed to sit up at about 6 months?

COHLE: Oh, yes, most children are able to sit up at that age.

GRACE: And this child couldn`t sit up, according to the speaker. Interesting. Out to the lines, Sherry in North Carolina. Hi, Sherry.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: My question is, if it`s a known fact that the mother was getting high every day, why didn`t family members step in and take custody of the children? Or would they have been able to?

GRACE: You know, I don`t know that anyone knew until she blurted it out to police. What do we know about that, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: We know that the father of that child is in prison, so he wasn`t around to see the day-to-day activities of Katrina Brooks. Other family members we really haven`t heard from.

GRACE: The father of the 9-month-old?

CASAREZ: Correct.

GRACE: And an interesting point. It`s not just manslaughter. It`s aggravated manslaughter, because this victim is under 18 years old. But what about her behavior, Jean, immediately after she discovers the child?

CASAREZ: Well, this is something that`s going to come into a courtroom, especially at sentencing. When she found the baby face down in the bathtub, she took it out and then went to a neighbor`s house. And it was the neighbor that called 911. It was the neighbor that then performed CPR. And you have to wonder, if she did it right when she found the child, could that child be alive? We don`t know.

GRACE: Trenny, interesting, she did not even try to perform CPR on her own 9-month-old child. You know, maybe she was just too stoned to think of it.

STOVALL: Well, probably I would think that she didn`t know how to perform CPR and probably that she was a young mother, she wasn`t responsible. She didn`t know what to do in this instance, as we`ve seen. And as to the family not taking the child, if she was getting high or doing a drug deal with her aunt, maybe someone was getting high with her. So maybe they didn`t think there was anything wrong with that. I mean, we have a lot of concerns here about this entire situation.

GRACE: This is a 20-year-old young lady. She`s not a little girl anymore. She`s got two children. I`m going to go out to Dr. Bethany Marshall. What is the difference, in your mind as a psychotherapist, between forgetfulness, a mistake, and outright criminal neglect?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I tend to think of this as an action that has a history to it. For instance, abusive parents confuse what it means to be an adult and what it means to be a child. And the abusive mom might say, "Of course I had to hit Dotty, she didn`t clean the entire house." And then you find out Dotty is 4.

So this mother probably has a whole history of age inappropriate expectations. So what I really wonder, was she asking the 2-year-old to parent the 9-month-old? When she left them in the bathtub, does she tell the 2-year-old, "Well, turn off the water when it gets too high, check and make sure it`s not getting too high," so I can`t really speak to the purposefulness of that in turns of homicide, but it is a very purposeful form of neglect.

GRACE: You know, Bethany, I`m just imagining the 9-month-old in the water, fighting the water, sitting there. And in a regular tub, the water can go up pretty deeply. And she`s in the next room planning a dope deal. It seems to me that getting stoned is more important to her than her 9- month-old.

MARSHALL: Well, you know what they say about addictions. Addictions hijack the portion of the brain that tells you that you`re learning new and exciting things about the world, and it continues to do so even though your life is falling apart around you.

GRACE: Jessica in Georgia, hi, Jessica. Do I have Jessica with me? Hold on, can`t connect to Jessica. But very quickly, while we wait to reconnect with Jessica in Georgia, let`s go to "CNN Heroes."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT PEDRAJA, "YOUNG WONDER": The doctor came in and just said, "You have leukemia." And it was devastating, horrifying and scary. All I knew about cancer was that both my grandparents have died from it.

Well, I was in the hospital, and I was watching the TV, and a Hispanic girl died because she couldn`t find a marrow transplant match. You`re most likely to find a match within your own ethnicity. I`m half-Hispanic, and I decided to change it because it could affect me, too. I said, "Mom, I want to do something, let`s have a bone marrow drive." And she said, "What?" And I said, "Yes, we`re going to go drive for these bone marrow donors." And then it turned into driving for donors.

Hi, my name is Pat Pedraja, I`m 12 years old, and I`m trying to sign people up for the national marrow registry. It`s our responsibility as a human being to watch out for someone else.

Driving for Donors is a 30-city national marrow drive. We sold advertisement spots on the (INAUDIBLE) and raised close to $100,000.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What Patrick is doing is something that it comes from inside him. It`s something that`s very personal to his heart. My sister died of leukemia because she could not find a match within the Brazilian community. Seventy percent of the cases, you do not find a match with your brother or sister. You have to find a match in the national registry.

PEDRAJA: If you sign up to the registry, it`s just a cheek swab. And then you know that you could be the one to save a kids` life.

And you are going to be on the registry until your 61st birthday, which is a really long time away. Here`s your card. If you ever move or anything, just call it. And this is -- you are now a number.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.

PEDRAJA: I don`t need a bone marrow transplant myself. I`m in remission, and I feel fine, but I still have cancer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a 12 year old, he`s showing that each one of us can do so much to save other people`s lives.

PEDRAJA: People don`t know that it`s such a big issue, and that people are dying each day, and I want to change that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. Straight to the lines, Ashley in Florida. Hi, Ashley.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: My question is, where is the 2-year-old now? Is he in custody? And, also, are investigators asking the 2-year-old questions like they did with the case that we heard "Mommy`s in the rug, Mommy`s crying"? Is there any investigation going on with that 2-year-old about what really happened?

GRACE: Jean?

CASAREZ: That`s a good question, Ashley. Well, investigators are not going to tell us if they`re talking to the 2-year-old. Where the 2-year- old is, is with their father, because both children had separate fathers. So the father of the 2-year-old has that child.

GRACE: And very quickly, Eben Brown, when is she due in court?

BROWN: She`s still in jail. We`re not sure when she`s coming to court. We have to go check the docket on that one. But she is being held in lieu of $50,000. And that`s not even as much as what the prosecutors wanted.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop to remember Army Corporal Jason Lafleur, 28, Ignacio, Colorado, killed, Iraq. Leaving college to enlist, he loved the Texas Longhorns, bluegrass music, Cajun food, trivia, soccer, skiing, the Colorado mountains. Receiving the Army Commendation Medal, Bronze Star, and Purple Heart, leaves behind grieving parents, Kay and Charles, sisters, Megan, Shannon, brother, Shane. Jason Lafleur, American hero.

And tonight, in honor of American heroes, the Sacrifice for Freedom Organization supports families of fallen soldiers whose loved ones made the ultimate sacrifice. To donate, go to SacrificeforFreedom.org or 877-828- 9700.

Thank you to all our guests, but especially to you for being with us. A special good night goes out to Barbara in Wilmington. I hope you love your new home. See you all tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END