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Portuguese Police Turn McCann Case Over to Prosecutor for Action
Aired September 10, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 3-year-old (SIC) little girl, baby Maddie, reportedly snatched during a luxury resort vacation, her parents party at dinner just 100 yards away at the time. Tonight, police naming Maddie`s own mom and dad prime suspects. Police announce they`re set to turn evidence over to prosecutors, reportedly police seeking charges of homicide and concealing the baby`s body.
As we go to air, stunning reports. Baby Maddie`s DNA, possibly blood, found under the carpet of a car trunk, that car rented by Maddie`s family 25 days after she goes missing. Mom and Dad now flee the country, denying any involvement in Maddie`s disappearance. The clock is ticking. Maddie`s parents have just five days to surrender to police, all the while experts continue to comb through evidence from that rental car and the luxury vacation resort where baby Maddie last seen alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A stunning development in the case of missing girl Madeleine McCann, a Portuguese television station now reporting a full DNA match to baby Maddie found in the family`s rental car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her parents home now in the UK, waiting to see if they will, in fact, be charged in her disappearance. Now, we told you last week the McCanns now reportedly suspected of accidentally killing Madeleine and then hiding her body. They have hired a high-profile legal team that specializes in protecting the reputations of people under investigation. Portuguese police are turning the case over to the prosecutor`s office tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Tonight, after 11 full days of intense searching by land, by air, by water, police confirm they have ID`d remains of 22-year-old BYU coed Camille Cleverley, found Provo Canyon, Utah, Cleverley last seen leaving her apartment on a silver and purple Schwinn. At this hour, autopsy under way to determine how that BYU senior ended up 200 feet below her bike trail at the foot of a cliff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say her body was at the base of these cliffs. It is believed she fell some 200 feet into a forested area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was about a thousand yards from the falls. They walked right up on her and were able to find her there. It`s so dense in that area that, literally, if you had been 10 feet to the left or right, they may not have seen her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search and rescue teams from Wasatch and Utah Counties canvassed the steep, rugged terrain surrounding the falls. It was in an area already searched several times that the sad discovery was made. Camille`s family gathered and watched as rescuers removed her body from the mountainside, comforting each other and grieving. There is sorrow but also relief. Now it will be up to investigators to determine how Camille might have fallen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have been able to confirm from clothing articles and items that this is indeed Ms. Cleverley. We`ve turned this into an investigation, but we can confirm that she did die upon the mountain at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First, police name parents of missing Maddie McCann prime suspects. We learn the claim is based on the child`s alleged DNA under the carpet in the trunk of the McCann rental car. Maddie`s parents flee the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Portuguese television station reports tonight that according to police, DNA found in a rental car matches missing girl Madeleine McCann, the car rented by Maddie`s parents 25 days after reporting her disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been confirmed the Portuguese police will hand their dossier of evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann to the country`s public prosecutor. He must then decide whether charges will be brought against them over the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday Kate and Gerry McCann returned to Britain with their 2-year-old twins. On Friday, Portuguese police named them as suspects in Maddie`s disappearance. A family member said police offered Kate McCann a plea deal if she confessed to accidentally killing her daughter. The couple denies any involvement in Madeleine`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter, Madeleine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The papers have been reporting that Michael Kaplan (ph) QC has been consulted by the family. Now, he is a well known expert in international criminal law in this country, perhaps best known for preventing the extradition of General Pinochet to Spain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the investigation is far from over, but today`s developments suggest they believe they have enough evidence to bring charges against Gerry and Kate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Baby Maddie`s parents named the prime suspects in her death or disappearance. And now we learn that DNA, that bodily fluid we told you about on Friday night, is allegedly blood, baby Maddie`s blood. And where? Under the carpet in the trunk of the rental car the parents rented 25 full days after they reported her missing. We also understand from reports there`s an 80 percent DNA match to baby Maddie.
Let`s go out to Adrian Finighan, CNN correspondent, standing by in Leicestershire, England. Tell me the latest, Adrian. How do we know whether that fluid is blood? And what is the police theory as to how baby Maddie`s blood got in the trunk under the carpet, I guess where you put a spare tire, 25 days after she goes missing?
ADRIAN FINIGHAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s interesting. It`s quite a conundrum, isn`t it, Nancy. Now, we`ve spoken to forensics experts here in Britain, and they are cautioning this DNA evidence. Everyone thinks that DNA evidence is infallible. It`s not. This could be a tiny speck, a single cell of Maddie`s bodily fluid, blood, whatever it is. It could have come from anywhere, the forensics experts are saying.
This is not to throw cold water on it, but they`re just saying, Look, this could have been her -- even her spit on a toy that one of her siblings, the two twins, the 2-year-old sister and brother, could have been playing with after her disappearance. They could have taken it into the car. That`s how the DNA evidence might have got into that car, Nancy.
GRACE: Adrian Finighan, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. So you want me to go out on a limb that maybe one of the twins were playing with a toy that had Maddie`s saliva on it, and somehow it got under the carpet of the trunk in a rental car 25 days later? That story is preposterous!
FINIGHAN: I`m no expert, Nancy. I`m only going on what the forensic experts in this country are saying. There`s a lot of expertise as far as DNA is concerned. And these tests are still ongoing on this fluid.
Now, we got those reports saying there was, what, a 98 percent match, an 80 percent match on DNA from Maddie. There are other reports now, even as we go on air, saying, Whoa, whoa, that`s not quite right. Apparently, it could be even lower than that, a 40 percent match. We just don`t know.
As I said, people think that this DNA evidence is infallible and it`s not, the experts here putting the brakes on these reports suggesting that Maddie`s fluids have been found in that car. They`re saying that there are a hundred different ways that those DNA samples could have got into that vehicle, even if they were found under the carpet in the trunk, as you say.
GRACE: Interesting. Out to Paula Hancocks, standing by in Portimao, Portugal. As you know, this is where the luxury resort was where baby Maddie was vacationing with her parents, her parents 100 yards away that evening, partying at a dinner party, leaving the children alone, unattended in a luxury condo.
Now, Paula, the word is that they did go back to check on the children throughout the dinner. I don`t know if it was the mom and dad or just the mom, how often they went back. But explain to me this recent development that now we`re hearing the body solution is, in fact, blood in that rental car.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, there are a tremendous amount of conflicting reports this Monday evening. We had heard Portuguese media reporting that it was a 100 percent DNA match to Madeleine, showing that it was DNA evidence, that the body of Madeleine was in that rental car.
This is Portuguese media quoting police sources. The police are not going to come out officially and say anything. There`s a law that prevents them from doing that. They`re in the middle of a criminal investigation. The parents themselves can`t confirm or deny anything because they are not allowed to talk about the investigation. All they`re saying is they had nothing to do with the disappearance.
But then as Adrian was saying, once again, you`re getting other people and other media, British and Portuguese, saying that it is not an exact match. There were three samples sent to Britain, two from this particular rental car and then another from the holiday apartment itself. Now, Portuguese media reporting that two of those were an exact match and one wasn`t. But without the full evidence in front of us, it is very hard to know exactly what the police know.
And hopefully, we will know a little bit more on Tuesday as they give out that information to the prosecutor, who will then decide whether or not there`s a basis to charge the parents.
GRACE: Paula Hancocks is joining us from the country of that luxury resort, Portimao, Portugal. Paula, another issue. Is it true that the police are handing their case file over to prosecutors tomorrow, a case file they have built against the parents?
HANCOCKS: Yes, Nancy, that is true. They`ll -- it`s basically the entire investigation that they have carried out for the past four months, and also, a tremendous amount of investigation with the questioning of Kate and Gerry McCann. Now, you remember on Thursday, Kate McCann was questioned for 11 hours. She came back Friday, was questioned for another five hours. Gerry McCann was then interviewed for about eight hours.
So there was going to be a tremendous amount of paperwork for this prosecutor to go through. And then what he has to decide is, Is there enough evidence right now to charge these parents in the disappearance of their own daughter? Is that the case? Will the police have to go back and find more evidence? Or the third and probably less likely case, do the police have to then be told by the prosecutor, You`re going down the wrong track, this does not hold?
GRACE: To Larry Sutton, staff editor with "People" magazine. Larry, thank you for being with us. I understand the clock is ticking, that the parents have to turn themselves back in to police in five days. Why?
LARRY SUTTON, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: That`s just a procedural matter. They want to make sure they know where they are. Again, what we`re really waiting on -- and this could take months, even, for the prosecutor to turn around and say, We`ve got enough evidence here, or, We don`t have enough, go back and do your job again. So maybe we`ll learn something in a day or two, maybe a month or two.
GRACE: To Mike brooks. Mike, a lot could hinge on the statements, the statements specifically by the mother, because it`s very difficult to go over 11 hours of police questioning without a single inconsistency, if you`re not telling the truth.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s exactly right, Nancy. They said that -- she says they`re trying to make her lie. But something during this interview, Nancy, had to bring them to that rental vehicle that was rented 25 days after she was reported missing. So you know, there was something during that whole interview process that brought them to that car. And did they use luminol? What kind of forensics did they use to find this spot of blood in the trunk?
GRACE: To Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and expert in forensic pathology. Dr. Morrone, all this business where people throw around the phrase, There`s a match, there`s not a match -- that`s not the way DNA -- deoxyribonucleic acid -- works. You get, for instance, a 1-in- a-500,000 match. In other words, the likelihood is 1 out of 500,000 or 1 in 3 trillion -- it could be that big -- likelihood that this DNA belongs to baby Maddie. It`s not -- explain it. You`re the scientist. I`m just a lawyer. Explain. It`s not so simple as, There`s a match, there`s not a match.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: What they would like to say is there`s an index of suspicion or a ratio or some kind of risk profile. But the genetic DNA, when it`s analyzed, will be 50 percent from the contribution of the mother and 50 percent from the father. When they put that together with previous samples, it`s absolute.
But when they`re talking about the different kinds of DNA, if they do a mitochondrial DNA versus a nuclear DNA, mitochondrial DNA will be a 100 percent match to the mother alone, all by itself, because that`s where all of us get our mitochondrial DNA, from our mother. If it`s degraded, that`s the only thing that we have to see. If it`s degraded, how old and how exposed was it? That might be where they`re coming up with the percents.
GRACE: And another thing, Dr. Morrone, this whole business about maybe one of the twins -- remember, Maddie has younger siblings, twins -- were playing with a toy that had her saliva on it. They got in the back of the car, under the carpet -- that`s awfully attenuated.
MORRONE: When they talk about that transfer -- there are certain principles in the transfer of trace evidence. From object to object is the weakest transfer. From person to person is the strongest transfer. And that`s where you get tissues and solutions embedded in carpet fibers.
GRACE: And why would toys be under the carpet in the trunk of a rental car? You know, it really is going to depend on me (ph) what type of body fluid it is, where the location is, how much there is and what the match is. Even if they have, for instance, an 80 percent match to baby Maddie, that`s still very strong. If it drops down to below 50 percent, that`s not nearly strong. Would you agree or not, Dr. Morrone?
MORRONE: I agree. And I know this much, that I don`t do anything with my children that would transfer their body fluids to the trunk of my car.
GRACE: Under the carpet. It`s ridiculous!
MORRONE: Yes, yes.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Joan in Massachusetts. Hi, Joan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. My question is, when was the last time someone other than the parents saw the child alive? The child could have been dead the day before or the morning, when nobody was looking at the parents or what they were doing. And I hope it`s not the parents, but I think that should be investigated.
GRACE: Joan, it`s funny you would bring that up. I was trying to find out tonight if the mother and the father were going to check on the children during dinner. Was it only the mother? Why have they honed in on the mother specifically?
Let`s go out to Paula Hancocks, CNN correspondent, standing by in Portugal where that luxury resort is. When was the last time anybody other than the parents saw baby Maddie alive?
HANCOCKS: That`s exactly the question, Nancy, that the police are trying to answer. They`re asking what happened on that evening. They have a couple of hours which they want to find out the exact minutes or the exact timing of when either Gerry or Kate or both went back and checked on the three children because there were twins 2 years old who were in that holiday apartment, as well.
Now, we understand from the Portuguese media quoting these police sources, saying that there was also a friend that went back to the holiday apartment, we understand, from the McCann family. That friend didn`t actually go into the room where the children were sleeping. And certainly, there`s -- this is exactly what the police want to know. They want to know minute by minute what happened that evening. And surely, that`s why the questioning for Kate and Gerry has just been so long and so intense.
GRACE: Well, you know -- to Larry Sutton, editor with "People" magazine -- to state the last time you saw your child should be relatively easy. It shouldn`t be that difficult to recall that. Larry, do we know when someone else during the day -- for instance, was it that day at the pool, was it right before dinner -- that somebody else saw baby Maddie?
SUTTON: Well, you know, there are 22 questions that the police asked both the husband and the wife in this case. And the timing has a lot to do with it. There`s about an hour that police can`t account for. They don`t have that exact answer yet, and the parents aren`t telling the cops.
GRACE: OK, that, in my mind -- out to Dr. Robi Ludwig -- is very, very unusual, that the parents cannot tell the cops when was the last time the neighbors, some of your friends you were having dinner with -- were there other people -- oh, did you talk he take her to the pool? Did you take her to the local aquarium? Was she outside playing? Just anybody, any witness that saw baby Maddie that day.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s true, it would be unusual. However, we don`t know if they`re sleep-deprived, if they`re nervous. It does sound very suspicious. And also what strikes me...
GRACE: Dr. Robi, sleep-deprived? I`m sleep-deprived right now with these twins bouncing around.
GRACE: I`m up all night long.
GRACE: I can remember the last time I saw you in person, OK?
GRACE: That doesn`t make sense to me that you`re saying if they`re sleep-deprived, they don`t remember when there was a witness.
LUDWIG: You have to remember, too, during the questioning process, if they`re sleep-deprived, if they`re pressured, if they`re nervous, you know, sometimes you can`t always come up with the right answers. And maybe that can account for it, although I agree with you, Nancy, it does sound suspicious.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The parents of 4-year-old Madeleine McCann, missing in Portugal, are back in England this morning, even though police in Portugal named them official suspects in their daughter`s disappearance. And more details are coming out right now about it, Kate McCann saying police pressured her to confess that she accidentally killed Madeleine and then hid her body for days. British papers are suggesting that the McCanns are being framed by police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Baby Maddie`s parents now named the prime suspects in the disappearance of their 3-year-old little girl. And now we find this allegedly blood, baby Maddie`s blood in the trunk of a rental car they rented, under the carpet.
Out to the lines. Jill in South Carolina. Hi, Jill.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you and your show.
GRACE: Thank you, love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know why the parents never were charged for leaving children under 4 alone.
GRACE: You know, that`s interesting. Let`s go out to Penny Douglass Furr. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Penny first, Steve Greenberg out of New York, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle. What about it, Penny? Never any charges.
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There should have been because you totally cannot leave a 4-year-old by themselves and with two twins that are 2 years old. That`s ridiculous. But what concerns me is that, why didn`t the police investigate the parents in the very beginning of this case and eliminate them before they went forward?
GRACE: Or speak to them separately. You`re right, speak to them, eliminate them. It never happened. Anne Bremner, weigh in.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, 25 days, Nancy, it`s, like, the more you explain it, the less I understand it. Where was baby Maddie for 25 days? They just now look at them as suspects and announced it. We don`t know what they said back when, but it sure looks like they eliminated them in their own minds from the get-go.
GRACE: You know -- to Steve Greenberg -- with other parents, maybe less glamorous, maybe more ordinary parents, you leave your kids alone at home to go party 100 yards away at a dinner party, you`re in trouble.
STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You may be in trouble, but that`s not really the issue here. The issue here is why are they focusing on...
GRACE: But that is the question from Jill in South Carolina. Please answer it.
GREENBERG: Well, this is -- what are you going to get in trouble for?
GRACE: Neglect? Duh!
GREENBERG: You don`t know that they did anything wrong.
GRACE: You left your kids alone, for Pete`s sake! She`s 3 years old!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCANN: (INAUDIBLE) the Portuguese authorities and police. Portuguese law prohibits us from commenting further on the police investigation. Despite there being so much we wish to say, we are unable to do so except to say this. We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter, Madeleine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Paula Hancocks, CNN correspondent, standing by near that luxury resort at Portimao, Portugal. Paula, if they are formally charged, I understand it`s a manslaughter-type charge?
HANCOCKS: Well, there`s a couple of different options, really. The prosecutor can decide either to go for a manslaughter charge or an accidental killing charge, which would obviously be a lesser sentence. We understand from experts over here that`s about a three to five-year sentence. Manslaughter is something more like a 12 years` sentence. But of course, we heard from the McCann family saying that Kate McCann had already said that the police offered her a deal, saying if she admitted to accidentally killing her daughter, she`d only get two years.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, police don`t have the authority to offer a deal on behalf of the DA`s office.
BROOKS: No, they sure don`t, and that`s why the DA now has the case jacket to decide if there are any charges. But Nancy, I have a couple other things. What happened to that guy that was named a suspect three months ago?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I flew back with Kate and Gerry yesterday. I was on there -- on the plane that brought them back to England from Portugal. It was a very poignant scene, because at the very end, as I left the plane ahead of the McCanns, I saw that Kate was just looking out the airplane window and quietly sobbing. And you can just imagine the emotion for her coming back home without Madeleine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s actually doing some talking, apparently, this at least according to the U.K. "Sunday Mirror." They quoted Kate as saying, "They want me to lie. I`m being framed. Police don`t want a murder in Portugal." They`re basically saying, "If you confess Madeleine had an accident, that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month, then got rid of it in a hired car, I`d get two or three years suspended sentence."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What is the police theory? What we know tonight is the mom and the dad, prime suspects in baby Maddy`s death and disappearance, one or the other. Also, we have listened to reports that the body fluid found in the back of the car of that rental car is under the carpet, in the trunk, and there`s an 80 percent to 98 percent chance that it is baby Maddy`s blood. That leaves them with a lot of explaining to do.
Out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and forensic pathologist. Dr. Morrone, they seem to be going on a theory that baby Maddy was sedated to make her go to sleep so they could go out to dinner. OK, let`s think about that for a moment. What would be the bodily fluid 25 days later if they transported a dead body? What would be the bodily fluid?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: There are a number of bodily fluids that could accumulate. When red blood cells compact with platelets and clotting factors, what`s extracted is something called serum. It could be old urine. It could be...
GRACE: Twenty-five days later?
MORRONE: If it`s in the body and the body has been stored, those things, along with other chemical markers, would also give them the idea of decomposition.
GRACE: What do you mean other chemical markers? Break it down, Morrone! What do you mean "other chemical markers"?
MORRONE: I`m going to use two words, and one of these is going to be really familiar to you. One of them is called spermine and one of them is called cadaverine. These are compounds that are only given off in dead bodies. You don`t get these compounds in live children or live adults...
GRACE: Oh, you mean like gas, the body starts emitting gas as it decomposes?
MORRONE: It`s still in a fluid state, but these two molecules called spermine and cadaverine, cadaverine is what`s used to train cadaver dogs. They spray cadaverine on a rag, and they let the dogs sniff it, then they go hide the rag. That`s how you train a cadaver dog.
GRACE: ... a fluid that the body creates postmortem?
MORRONE: Yes, as part of the decomposition. And if the body fluid and the DNA also contain these, then there is a suspicion that this was decomposition and death, yes.
GRACE: So if the bodily fluid and what contain this?
MORRONE: You would find spermine and cadaverine in urine or other bodily fluids that might be secreted, because it`s like a wine. It matures. And it ferments. And this is what`s produced in fermentation.
GRACE: I get it. I understand it. Thank you, Dr. Morrone.
Out to the lines, Julie in Michigan. Hi, Julie. Hold on. To Laura in West Virginia. Sorry, Julie.
Laura, are you with me?
CALLER: Yes, hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
CALLER: My question is, with all of the money that the McCann family has raised, are there any independent investigators looking for Maddy, or have they left that up to the Portuguese authorities who seem to kind of botched everything up?
GRACE: Excellent question. To Adrian Finighan, CNN correspondent standing by in Leicestershire, England, didn`t they hire private investigators themselves?
ADRIAN FINIGHAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They did, for a while. They`re also looking now at a crack legal team here in U.K. that they want to hire, too. There`s a problem. Do you know how much money, Nancy, is in that fund that they began when Maddy first went missing, this fund which is called Madeleine`s Fund, the leaving no stone unturned appeal? Two million dollars. The problem is, now, because they`ve been declared official suspects, the McCanns can`t access that fund. They were able to use it for their living expenses while they were in Portugal and if they wanted to hire private detectives then. But now they`re official suspects. They can`t.
There`s talk today here in the British media that Michael Caplan, QC, he`s an expert in international criminal law, he`s the guy that prevented the extradition of General Pinochet, Chile`s General Pinochet, from the U.K. to Spain a few years ago. There`s speculation that he is being brought in by the McCann family to fight their case. But, of course, he doesn`t come cheap. Gerry McCann is a heart surgeon. She`s a doctor, too. They`re not exactly poor. But whether they can stretch that far, we`ll have to wait and see.
GRACE: Speaking of her being a doctor, to Adrian Finighan, CNN correspondent standing by there in Leicestershire, England, reports also surfaced today that she had actually told police during those 11 hours of questioning that she may have had cadaver scent on her because of her duties as a doctor. Has that surfaced?
FINIGHAN: It has, indeed. It`s been reported around here. Now, let`s look at that for a moment. She`s a GP. She works part-time...
GRACE: It doesn`t make sense.
FINIGHAN: Well, she works part-time as a GP, a locum doctor here in this community, in the English midlands. It`s a busy community. It`s quite big. She reckons she came into contact with six dead bodies in the days before they went abroad, in the days before they went to Portugal.
I was interested to hear what your doctor was saying, what your medical expert, rather, was saying about these chemical traces there being on the body. Is it possible for traces of dead bodies to still be on a person`s fingers, on a person`s body, that long after they`ve touched them, a matter of weeks? We`re talking about 25 days after Maddy went missing. They were on vacation for four or five days before she went missing, and she claims she`d been in contact with dead bodies in the weeks running up to the time she went abroad.
GRACE: You know, that is an excellent question. I`m going to go to Morrone, but hold on.
Paula Hancocks, where did that theory even come from? Did cadaver dogs hit on the belongings or the clothing of the mom?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that`s what we`re hearing over here, yes. When they actually went into the holiday apartment, the cadaver dogs did pick up a scent. Now, we understand that, obviously, that was the British sniffer dogs. They brought them in.
But this was still a little while into the investigation. This was not right at the beginning. And the Portuguese don`t have sniffer dogs. So, obviously, this is when the British came in and tried to give their expertise and take DNA samples. That`s when they actually picked up this scent.
GRACE: Dr. Morrone, that does not look good for the parents. I mean, come on. I`m not a scientist like you. But if she had been exposed to approximately six dead bodies before she went on vacation, then she was on vacation for a period of time, and then 25 days later they do these tests? Dr. Morrone, that doesn`t even make sense that that would still be on her.
MORRONE: Let me explain this under a very short phrase: universal precautions. When you treat patients, when you`re in autopsy, you have to scrub and clean so much to protect yourself. It`s universal precautions. There`s no way she could have taken any component of six dead bodies to vacation. If there`s cadaverine present in a DNA sample, it`s Maddy`s.
GRACE: Anne Bremner, doesn`t look good for Mom.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: ... universal precautions that she follows, then why didn`t she follow them when she supposedly killed the baby?
GRACE: That`s not the question I asked you. Please answer the question I asked you.
BREMNER: Well, the thing is, this will be a legal runaround, Nancy. She`s going to go through a whole extradition proceeding if she`s ever going to come back to Portugal. And a defense to that is a want of probable cause. There`s a lot to be explained here for both sides.
GRACE: To Steve Greenberg, it`s not lost on me that they`ve hired an extradition expert, the guy that fought Pinochet`s extradition.
STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If I was thought that the Portuguese police were trying to frame me for something I didn`t do, I`d hire the best experts I could hire to defend me.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Julie in Michigan, hi, Julie.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations. I know you`re going to make a wonderful mother.
GRACE: I pray. I pray.
CALLER: I`m sure you will. I`ve got a couple of things bothering me, Nancy. Dr. Morrone answered part of the question about body fluids, because I was talking with my husband and mentioning that they rented the car 25 days after she disappeared. And he said, how much blood would be left to be in the trunk, then? Not only that, Nancy, but do we know if there was a refrigerator or freezer in their room that they were staying in?
GRACE: What do we know about the room they were staying in, Paula Hancocks? I mean, they had the police over in the room the night she went missing, correct?
HANCOCKS: Yes, you would assume that they would have a fridge in that particular -- in that particular holiday apartment. Now, the interesting thing was is that, after they did all the tests and gathered the information that they needed at the scene, then that room was allowed to be rented out again. So that`s one thing that the Portuguese police have come under an incredible amount of criticism for, renting out a crime scene. And, of course, you have more people going in, and then that will mix up DNA samples. It`s a crime scene. You can`t rent it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A new development this Monday evening in the case of the search for 4-year-old Madeleine. Portuguese media is reporting -- the police say they now have the 100 percent DNA match to Madeleine in the rental car. Now, this is the rental car which Gerry and Kate McCann, the parents of Madeleine, rented 25 days after they reported their daughter had gone missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Before we take you out to Provo, Utah, and the missing BYU coed, back to the lines. Joann in New York, hi, Joann.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, love.
CALLER: I`m wondering, were the supposed friends that Madeleine`s parents were dining with the night she disappeared ever questioned?
GRACE: To Larry Sutton with "People" magazine, it`s my understanding they were.
LARRY SUTTON, STAFF EDITOR, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Yes, they were. In fact, a lot of the details of the dinner party that they attended has been coming out. There were maybe eight to ten people. They had maybe about ten bottles of wine that they shared between them. And, yes, they were spoken to, so there are a lot of witnesses about what was going on that night. No witnesses about what was going on back in the room where the children were.
GRACE: Ten bottles of wine, eight people?
SUTTON: Well, you know, it`s a holiday. It`s a party.
GRACE: Sounds like a big drunk to me. OK, Jan in Minnesota, hi, Jan.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations and I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: Did anybody ever check the rental car that the people that previously rented it?
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, how could that -- I mean, if baby Maddy`s fluid was in this car, I mean, that kind of ix-nays the people that rented it before.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: It does, Nancy, because did they know these people? I seriously doubt it. But going again, it sounds like something came out of this 11-hour interview that led them to that particular car. You know, otherwise it sounds like the keystone cops in Portugal just wouldn`t have taken it upon themselves to go take a look at this car.
GRACE: Yes, you know, if it were any other cops other than the Portugal cops, I would put a lot more credence in it. I really need to know more about this DNA and what was said, as Mike Brooks emphasized, in that 11-hour interview with the mom. Mike, very quickly, why do you keep going back to that interview?
BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you know, as an investigator, I can tell you 11 hours is a long time. And there`s going to be some discrepancies. And, you know, she says they`re trying to frame her. I don`t know, Nancy; I have to see the transcripts to see what happens.
GRACE: Last week we told you about a missing BYU coed, Miss Cleverley. We now have confirmed that her remains have been found at the foot of a 200-foot cliff. Take a listen.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators are trying to determine how a 22- year-old Brigham Young University student died at the base of a cliff outside Provo. Camille Cleverley had been missing more than a week when her body was discovered. Police say it`s too early to rule out foul play, but they note her injuries appear consistent with a fall. She was found at the bottom of a 200-foot cliff near Bridal Veil Falls.
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GRACE: Out to Jim Kirkwood with KTKK -- he`s a talk show host there - - Jim, what`s the latest? And how can they rule out a blow to the head from a fall?
JIM KIRKWOOD, KTKK TALK RADIO HOST: Well, I think we`re probably stuck with the Occam`s razor thing. It appears to be what it is. She fell. But the most important issue with this is, when did she actually die? And if she laid there for a day or two, the people who stole the bicycle, the question is whether or not they are guilty of involuntary manslaughter. This is the real possible crime in this thing.
GRACE: Now, how would they be guilty of involuntary manslaughter? And tell me about the people that stole the bike.
KIRKWOOD: The bicycle was parked in a camp area below the hiking area where she went up, and it`s pretty rough country. I went to school there, and I would go hiking like she did. But you had to be very careful. If she took the upper trail, that is dangerous. If perhaps a bear that are in the area, if perhaps a rattlesnake, she could have been frightened and could have fallen or just slipped. It`s a 200-foot drop, so it is dangerous by its very nature.
GRACE: So I guess the theory of involuntary manslaughter, Penny Douglass Furr, apparently two people came along, they saw the bike chained up, they went, "Hmm, nice bike," and cut the chain and took her bike.
GRACE: So I guess the legal theory, Penny Douglass Furr, would be, which I find to be very attenuated, that if they had left the bike, the authorities would have found it and possibly saved her if she were still alive.
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t buy it. I think the fall was from a long enough distance that it would have killed her. And, also, you have to understand, these guys came forward. Most people would say, "Oh, goodness, I stole the bike of"...
GRACE: They came forward a day late and a dollar short.
FURR: Well, I understand that, but they did come forward.
GRACE: When it was too late!
FURR: If it was the only thing that led police to their body, they would never have found her. So they actually helped out, and they came forward, and said, "I stole the bike. I know it was wrong." If they had anything to do with her death, I don`t think they would have come forward with the bicycle.
GRACE: Oh, no, no, no. I`m not necessarily saying they had anything to do with her death. But Kirkwood is right. If she were still alive and they took the bike that threw authorities off from finding her, very quickly, to Mike Brooks, do we know anything about whether anything was stolen from her? Was she sexually assaulted, anything like that?
KIRKWOOD: Apparently not, Nancy. We know that her debit card had been used apparently the day that she went and bought some soft drink. They found this fruit drink, it was, in her backpack when the body was found. But nothing else seemed out of place.
GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and talk show host on GSN, "Without Prejudice," Robi, is it more difficult when loved ones don`t have anyone to blame?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It really is, because if you don`t have somebody else to blame, then you have to start looking to yourself or even the victim. So in some cases, it makes it easier to grieve. You have some way to target that feeling of sadness. So if that doesn`t exist, then you`re just left with this enormous sense of loss, and trying to put all the pieces together, and try to understand a meaningless death, which is what sounds like happened in this case.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Jerry in Arkansas. Hi, Jerry.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: Before I ask my question, I`m dying to know the sex of your babies.
GRACE: I am, too. And when I know, I`m going to tell you. But let me just clue you in: All of my nieces and nephews are all honor students, and they`re wonderful. I don`t want to be the one with two kids over in juvenile hall, OK? So that`s my hope right now. OK, what`s your question?
CALLER: I don`t think that`ll happen with you as a mom.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: My question is, how far from where they found Camille`s body was the bicycle?
GRACE: Ah. Jim Kirkwood?
KIRKWOOD: It was up the trail several hundred yards, but it was uphill most of the way. So it`s quite a ways in terms of walking.
GRACE: Back out to the lines. Leah in Texas, hi, Leah.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Your children are going to be beautiful and brilliant. Now, could the girl at BYU, could it have been a suicide? Has that been considered?
GRACE: What about it, Jim Kirkwood? I haven`t heard that tossed around at all.
KIRKWOOD: Vaguely here, but it`s not consistent. I`ve never known of a suicide to go backpacking and buy a drink and then fall down like that. And that area is not -- you might not have died in that area.
GRACE: Yes, you know, Robi, very quickly, the two drinks and the doughnuts don`t fit into a suicide theory.
LUDWIG: It`s unlikely. It`s not the way women tend to kill themselves. They tend to use painkillers, so hopefully that`s not the case.
GRACE: Let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant First Class Adrian Elizalde, 30, North Bend, Oregon, killed, Iraq. On a second tour, a Special Forces engineer and Green Beret, awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. With a big heart, a champion wrestler, dreamed of being a science teacher and wrestling coach, leaves behind parents George and Theresa, sister, Rachel, 6-year-old daughter Sydney. Adrian Elizalde, American hero.
Thank you to our guests, but most of all to you for being with us. Special good night from friends of the show Raymond Sr., Raymond Jr., Penny, Annette, Jennifer and Jimmy.
And tonight, special get well wishes to Mr. Wallace Graham in the hospital tonight. Please feel better.
And happy birthday to the show`s big star, director Brett. There he is! Everybody, see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.