Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Democrats Reviving Immigration Reform?; Rudy Takes on Hillary
Aired September 14, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, a new amnesty push on Capitol Hill. Pro-illegal lawmakers are trying to reintroduce their failed amnesty information.
Also, new evidence of the crushing burden an already struggling middle class. We will have a special report, war on the middle class.
Also, Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani already looking beyond the primaries and targeting Democratic front-runner Senator Hillary Clinton. We will explain why. We will discuss the election campaign with three of the best political analysts and strategists in the country -- all of that and much more straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Friday, September 14.
Live from New York, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody.
One day after President Bush delivered an upbeat speech on Iraq, the White House released a grim assessment of the Iraqi government's achievements. The White House said Prime Minister al-Maliki's government has made satisfactory progress on only nine out of 18 political and military goals. Democrats say the president's strategy is not working. Those Democrats are now trying to win Republican support for a new challenge to the president's policy.
We begin with Ed Henry at the White House -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, this was supposed to be a key measure on how the surge was working, whether it was giving the political breathing space for reconciliation within the Iraqi government.
But the White House is getting a little creative in how it's grading the success or failure of the Iraqi government.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUSH: Yes, a family tradition.
HENRY (voice-over): After serving up another new slogan for the Iraq war...
BUSH: Return on success. HENRY: ... now the president is trying to sell it. Lunch with Marines at Quantico.
BUSH: The plan I announced was that we're making enough -- it's based upon the fact we're making enough success in Iraq that we can begin bringing some troops home.
HENRY: That sunny forecast stands in stark contrast to the grim assessment by the White House in a new report to Congress. The Iraqi government has shown satisfactory progress on only nine of 18 benchmarks, unsatisfactory on 7, while the final two were inconclusive.
But the White House gave a positive rating on any benchmark where -- quote -- "present tend data demonstrates a positive trajectory which is tracking towards satisfactory accomplishment," in other words, thumbs up for a benchmark that might be met eventually.
BUSH: We expect the Iraqi government to enhance national reconciliation through the passage of law.
HENRY: This lax scorekeeping doesn't seem to mesh with the president's normally tough standards for, say, America's schools.
BUSH: Schools just shuffle kids from grade to grade, as if the child couldn't learn to read and write and add and subtract. They never measured. We never had any idea how a child was doing until it was too late. And that's unsatisfactory for the United States.
HENRY: With the president having trouble getting the Iraqis to eat their vegetables, White House spokesman Tony Snow has tried to downplay benchmarks.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No. Look, benchmarks were something the Congress wanted to use as a metric.
HENRY: Except, back in May, the president endorsed them.
BUSH: One message I have heard from people from both parties is that the idea of benchmarks makes sense. And I agree.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now, in July, when the White House's own preliminary report card on the Iraqi government came out, and the government failed, the White House said wait until September. Now that report card is out. It doesn't look good. And the White House is saying -- you guessed it -- wait until March, when there will be yet another report card -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Ed Henry.
Democrats tonight struggling to come up with a new political challenge the president's conduct of the war. Now, those Democrats are trying to enlist the support of Senate Republicans who are dissatisfied with the president's policy on Iraq. Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Now that they have blasted the president's troop reduction plan as unacceptable, Democrats are frantically searching for one that is.
SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: We're talking to our colleagues across the aisle. We recognize that we do need bipartisan support. We do need Republicans to come join us.
BASH: Democratic leadership sources say any Iraq legislation must narrow the mission to focus on counterterrorism and training the Iraqi army.
But Democrats now admit what they pushed for months, a hard deadline for withdrawal, will not pass. And Senate Democratic sources say leaders are weighing two options, a timeline that sets a goal, rather than a deadline, for most troops to come home, or a more flexible withdrawal timeline that has no final date at all.
REED: Part of the discussion is to what extent we can attract more support, hopefully, 60 or more votes, by changing timing and changing some of the emphasis.
BASH: Democrats concede their steep challenge is finding the right proposal to draw consensus, a timeline flexible enough to appeal to GOP senators wary of undercutting military commanders, but with enough teeth to keep staunchly anti-war Democrats on board.
They're targeting some 10 GOP senators, like Minnesota's Norm Coleman. He called the president's proposal to bring extra surge troops home by next summer a positive development, but said, "Americans need to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel well beyond that time frame."
Republican Susan Collins isn't satisfied either.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: I don't think it's a significant enough drawdown of our forces. What I have about advocated is that we change the mission of our troops in Iraq away from combat roles, and toward counterterrorist operations, training of Iraqi forces and border security.
BASH (on camera): There will be several votes next week, but all sides agree the one that has the best chance of passing is a Democratic measure to mandate more time at home between deployments. Senators who want more troops out faster call that a backdoor way to get Republicans to vote for troop withdrawal.
Dana Bash, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Defense Secretary Robert Gates today said it's unlikely President Bush will accelerate the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq. But Gates said he hopes troop levels can fall to 100,000 by the end of next year.
Nearly 6,000 of our troops are scheduled to leave Iraq by Christmas, another four brigades by summer.
Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In his first public comments since General Petraeus announced and President Bush approved the new Iraq plan, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said all the Joint Chefs and the U.S. central commander agree it's the best option to avoid what he called the disastrous consequences of an American failure in Iraq.
ROBERT GATES, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: All of the president's senior military advisers are in full agreement with the recommendations made by General Petraeus.
GENERAL PETER PACE, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: If you wanted to take the name Petraeus report and take the name Petraeus off it and put Fallon on it and say it's the Fallon report, if you want to take the name Petraeus off and put the name Pace, or Moseley or Conway or any of the other chiefs, that report would be exactly the same.
MCINTYRE: Gates, who noted that as a newcomer he has no record to defend and no agenda to promote, blamed the slow progress in Iraq partly on mistakes that the U.S. has made and partly on Iraqi history and culture. General Pace, in his last weeks as chairman, was blunt in accepting responsibility for some of the prewar misjudgments.
PACE: One of the mistakes I made in my assumptions going in was that the Iraqi people and the Iraqi army would welcome liberation, that the Iraqi army, given the opportunity, would stand together for the Iraqi people and be available to them.
MCINTYRE: General Pace said, had he known the Iraqi army would disintegrate, he would have backed more troops for the initial invasion. But he stood by his stance that invading Iraq was the right thing to do.
PACE: I absolutely do. I absolutely do. Absolutely do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Gates held out the prospect of further troop reductions next year, but called it a hope. He said that if progress in Iraq continues, the next president takes off office, there could be as few as 100,000 U.S. troops there.
As for what he called a long-term residual U.S. presence, that would have to be negotiated with the Iraqi government, but Gates insisted it would be a fraction of the current force -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: And, Jamie, General Petraeus wouldn't project beyond the summer.
MCINTYRE: Well, that's right, and the reason is, they say they really don't have much of an idea what's going to happen beyond six months.
And, again, as Secretary Gates said, he said, when he was an intelligence officer, he put everything that was unknown in the category of either secret or mystery, that is, things that you couldn't know. And he said what's going to happen in Iraq a year from now is a mystery.
PILGRIM: Yes, it certainly is. Thanks very much, Jamie McIntyre.
Insurgents in Iraq killed four more of our troops. Now, the soldiers were killed in Diyala Province north of Baghdad; 38 of our troops have been killed so far this month; 3,780 of our troops have been killed since this war began; 27,848 of our troops have been wounded, 12,512 seriously.
In Al Anbar province, mourners today demanded vengeance after the assassination of a leading pro-American sheik. More than 1,000 mourners attended the sheik's funeral protected by U.S. and Iraqi troops. The sheik was killed yesterday, 10 days after he met with President Bush.
Al Qaeda said its operatives killed the sheik.
Outgoing White House Press Secretary Tony Snow today acknowledged setbacks in Iraq. But he said it's time for members of Congress to realize the United States is having some success in Iraq.
Now, today was Snow's last day as press secretary. When Snow left the White House this evening, he was cheered by staff and colleagues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: President Bush has appointed Deputy Press Secretary Dana Perino to replace Snow.
Another top administration official, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, is also leaving this weekend, Gonzales stepping down after blistering criticism of his conduct by Republican and Democratic lawmakers.
Still to come, the so-called grand bargain on immigration reform may not be dead after all.
Lisa Sylvester will have the story -- Lisa.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, if you think compromise immigration reform was dead and gone, think again. Some senators plan to reintroduce the amnesty measures, this time with a twist. Stay with us after the break. We will have all the details.
PILGRIM: Thanks, Lisa.
Also, an illegal alien under arrest on murder charges, an example of what federal and local law enforcement can achieve by working together.
Also, war on the middle class, new evidence that working men and women are reeling from the higher living costs and stagnant wages.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: It appeared that amnesty for millions of illegal aliens was defeated when the immigration reform bill was killed in the Senate back in June. But now, some Democrats in Congress are determine to the ignore the will of American people again are reviving their push for amnesty.
And, as Lisa Sylvester now reports, they're doing it by sneaking their pet amnesty projects into other legislation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (voice-over): The Senate comprehensive bill that would have legalized millions of illegal aliens went down in flames this summer. But pieces of that legislation are resurfacing.
Senator Jeff Sessions, a staunch opponent, sent a letter to his colleagues this week flagging two upcoming amendments. Together, he says they could provide amnesty to approximately four million illegal aliens, about a third of the estimated alien population.
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R-AL), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: If we are really serious about establishing the rule of law with regard to immigration, the first thing you do is stop providing rewards for those who violate the law.
SYLVESTER: First up, the Dream Act. Senator Durbin is expected to introduce an amendment to the defense bill next week that says illegal aliens whose entered the United States before the age of 16 and lived here for at least five years would be granted eventual citizenship if they attend college or join the military.
The second amendment, AgJOBS, could be attached to the farm bill. Backed by California Senator Dianne Feinstein, it would grant 1.5 foreign farm workers so-called blue cards. And, eventually, they could also apply for citizenship. Farm groups argue the AgJOBS bill is not only essential to the U.S. economy, but would keep farm workers from being trapped as a permanent underclass.
BRUCE GOLDSTEIN, FARMWORKER JUSTICE: AgJOBS would allow undocumented farm workers who have been working in the United States to earn legal immigration status by continuing to work in agriculture. They would have the freedom to switch employers and bargain for better wages and working conditions and join labor unions.
SYLVESTER: But, with an election on the horizon, pushing these programs through will be difficult.
Representative Brian Bilbray says, if Democrats insist on a vote on these amendments, it could come with a political cost.
REP. BRIAN BILBRAY (R), CALIFORNIA: I will tell you something. I think that, if the Democrats want a fast track to the minority, they play these kind of games. And I think you're going to find that the more moderate Democrats are not going to support this amnesty proposal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Now, the comprehensive immigration bill was defeated not once, but twice this summer. Opponents plan to use the same strategy, urging the public to call their lawmakers to share their thoughts on these two proposals -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: It's surprising, Lisa, how many individual attempts are being put forward.
SYLVESTER: They certainly are trying and trying and trying again. But that's what usually happens here in Washington. And with this issue of immigration, they feel like they have this window, this narrow window, before next year's election. And so, the open-border advocates are trying again.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Lisa Sylvester.
Well, this story is also the subject of tonight's poll. Do you trust the Congress to heed the will of the people and refuse to accept any new illegal alien amnesty legislation? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We will bring you the results a little bit later in the broadcast.
We reported this week on a shocking testimony by the Department of Homeland Security officials who said thousands of criminal illegal aliens are being released back on our streets, instead of being deported. Law enforcement is coming under fire after a series of high-profile crimes involving criminal illegal aliens, including the recent murder of three students in New Jersey.
And now closer cooperation between federal and local law enforcement in Arizona is credited with the arrest of a murder suspect, an illegal alien who has been deported three times.
As Casey Wian reports, it's the latest example of efforts targeting the hundreds of thousands of criminal illegal aliens in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Memorial Day weekend, Phoenix police responded to a shots-fired call at this alleged drug stash house. They found three victims bound with plastic garbage bags and tape around their heads. Two had been shot, one fatally.
Nearly two months later, Phoenix police arrested Demetro Acosta- Uribe, an illegal alien with four prior felony convictions and at least three deportations to Mexico since 1988. He was caught trying to cross the border on two other occasion. Now, he's charged with eight new felonies, including first-degree murder, attempted murder, kidnapping, drug and weapons crimes.
Maricopa County's prosecutor is seeking the death penalty.
ANDREW THOMAS, MARICOPA COUNTY ATTORNEY: It just seems that this guy was a career criminal who was virtually going back and forth across the border at will. And it just shows a complete breakdown in our border control process. And it shows the direct connection which I have argued all along between illegal immigration and our crime problem.
WIAN: Immigration and Customs Enforcement says the Acosta case is also an example of improved cooperation between federal and local law enforcement. ICE agents helped Phoenix police apprehend the suspect, ho told investigators he last crossed the border near desolate Lukeville, Arizona.
The police report says Acosta admitted being at the crime scene, claimed the victims kidnapped him previously. And when asked why they were killed or nearly killed, he allegedly said they deserved it. Still, the prosecutor's office says he pleaded not guilty at his arraignment last month.
Acosta's case is no aberration. According to a 2005 Government Accountability Office study, incarcerated illegal aliens were charged with 84,000 violent crimes, including nearly 6,000 murders. Thirty- eight percent had been arrested between two and five times. Thirty- two percent had six to 10 arrests. And 26 percent were arrested more than 11 times.
ICE says it has doubled the number of criminal illegal alien deportations in the past year. Still the agency is searching for 600,000 fugitives who have defied deportation orders, many of whom also are wanted as suspects in other crimes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The public defender representing Acosta declined to comment on the case, as did the Mexican government, which opposes the death penalty -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Casey, that's a shocking case. But 84,000 violent crimes and 6,000 murders? These numbers are astonishing.
WIAN: It really is astonishing. And it just absolutely shows that those who want amnesty for virtually all illegal aliens are basically saying they want these kind of folks to be able to stay in the country as well -- Kitty. PILGRIM: That's unbelievable.
Thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
And Tom in Pennsylvania wrote to us: "Immigration, China and outsourcing are the biggest threats to the sovereignty of our nation. Maybe when corporate managers and CEOs begin to be outsourced, someone will take notice. Better yet, we should outsource our government officials."
And we also heard from Roger in Ohio: "Why does this administration hate the hardworking middle class of this country? This goes beyond just an extreme pro-business stance at the expense of workers. Everything they do seems to be aimed at ruining the middle class to benefit CEOs, China, big oil, and Mexico."
And Ann writes to Lou: "Thank you for defending the middle class. You are doing a tremendous job."
We will have more of your e-mails later in the broadcast.
There are new developments tonight in the case of six African- American students accused of beating a white classmate in Jena, Louisiana. Now, a judge has overturned the conviction of a 17-year- old charged as an adult.
Mychal Bell and five other students were charged in the racially divisive case. The students have since become known as the Jena six. Today, in an appeals court, the judge overturned Bell's 15-year conviction, saying Bell should have been tried as a juvenile.
Still ahead: Republican candidate Rudy Giuliani goes after Democratic candidate Senator Hillary Clinton. Is it a preview of the November presidential election? We will have that report.
Also, angry rhetoric taking over the amnesty debate.
And up next: wages stagnant, housing and health care costs are on the rise. America's middle class continues to struggle. We will have those stories and more -- when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Tonight, new evidence that the middle class is strapped more than ever. Health care costs are rising faster than wages. Tuition costs rising even faster. Home prices falling. And consumers are making up the difference by racking up debt.
Christine Romans brings us the war on the middle class through the eyes of a young Kentucky family finding it hard to get ahead on two good jobs.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Lisa Cheak and her family, the cost of staying in the middle class gets higher and higher.
LISA CHEAK, RESIDENT OF KENTUCKY: We make a pretty decent living, but, with credit card debt, we have a mortgage. We have car payments. We have, like I said, the student loan debt. It all eats away at that. And then you have three kids to raise, so there's just nothing left.
ROMANS: She and her husband together earn $80,000 a year. They're raising three children under age 9 in Kentucky. He barely got a raise last year. Hers was 3 percent, and that was eaten up by higher costs.
There are millions of families just like them, says Tamara Draut of a nonpartisan economic development think tank.
TAMARA DRAUT, DEMOS: Yes, we all know that health care costs are rising. We all know that housing costs have skyrocketed. So, the question is, how are households coping? And they're coping by taking on more and more debt.
ROMANS: The Federal Reserve says credit and charge card debt jumped to a total of $907 billion in July. And now the housing bubble has burst. That means lost jobs in real estate, construction, even retailing.
And loans to consumers and businesses are harder to come by, as banks tighten their lending standards. What are families to do?
John Rutledge advised Presidents Reagan and George W. Bush on tax policy.
JOHN RUTLEDGE, FOUNDER & CHAIRMAN, RUTLEDGE CAPITAL: Well, I think the thing you should do is go to work, earn your paycheck, and then save as much of it as possible. And really what you should do is make sure that your children are trained for the kind of jobs that this global community is producing.
ROMANS: In other words, service jobs, like the jobs Lisa Cheak and her husband already have.
CHEAK: All these jobs that move overseas, it's hard to find jobs making the kind of money that we make.
ROMANS: And, right now, the money she makes is all accounted for.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Lisa's family is not alone. Kaiser Family Foundation this week reported health care premiums are rising much faster than wages. At the same time, census data show millions of Americans are spending more of their paychecks on housing costs -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: It's getting drastic. Thanks very much, Christine Romans.
Well, coming up, Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani targets Democratic front-runner Senator Hillary Clinton, not his Republican rivals. We will tell you why.
Also, the national debate over our illegal immigration and border security crisis turns very nasty. We will tell you what the amnesty lobby is saying.
And in "Heroes": a Marine who fought the enemy virtually nonstop for seven months in Iraq.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: GOP frontrunner Rudy Giuliani is taking on a new approach in his bid for the White House. Instead of going after his fellow Republican candidates, as one would expect in a primary campaign, Giuliani is taking aim at the Democrats, particularly Senator Hillary Clinton.
Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): Rudy Giuliani may feel Fred Thompson breathing down his neck. Our poll of polls shows Giuliani's support among Republicans averaging 29 percent and newcomer Thompson 23.
In the Democratic race, Hillary Clinton leads Barack Obama by 20 points, on the average.
This week, Clinton had this response to General David Petraeus' testimony about the war in Iraq.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The reports that you provide to us really require the willing suspension of disbelief.
SCHNEIDER: That set off Giuliani.
RUDY GIULIANI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have a right to expect of our presidential candidates more statesmanship than accusing American generals of the willing suspension of disbelief.
SCHNEIDER: Like many of his fellow Republicans, Giuliani was angry about the ad MoveOn.org ran in Monday's "New York Times" criticizing General Petraeus, which he linked to Clinton.
GIULIANI: I was really disappointed in Hillary Clinton's attack on the general's integrity, kind of joining in that and her failure to condemn MoveOn.org. SCHNEIDER: So Giuliani ran his own ad, accusing Clinton of being part of an orchestrated attack on General Petraeus involving MoveOn, the Democrats and "The New York Times" -- sort of a vast left wing conspiracy.
Why is Giuliani going after Clinton and not Thompson, his Republican rival?
Has the general election campaign started already?
Consider this. Among Republicans nationwide, 66 percent believe President Bush's troop buildup in Iraq is succeeding, 71 percent favor the war in Iraq and 77 percent approve of the job President Bush is doing. But a whopping 80 percent have an unfavorable opinion of Hillary Clinton. Republicans dislike Clinton more than they support the war or President Bush.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SCHNEIDER: MoveOn is striking back at Giuliani with a new TV ad that will air next week in Iowa, accusing Giuliani of, "a betrayal of trust."
"He was thrown off the Iraq Study Group for missing too many meetings," MoveOn director Eli Pariser says. Adding, "Where was he? Out making huge sums of money giving speeches."
Now, the Giuliani campaign calls it, "a badge of honor to be attacked by MoveOn," which it calls "a Democratic character assassination machine."
Hmmmm.
PILGRIM: It is clear we're in a campaign season.
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Bill Schneider.
Pro-amnesty open border advocates have cast the debate over open illegal immigration in border security in a highly emotional manner, now, for example, exploring the son of deported illegal alien Elvira Arellano or comparing the pro-amnesty movement to the civil rights struggle in the country in the 1960s.
But this week, the rhetoric by the pro-amnesty, open borders constituency took on an angry new tone.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These protesters demanding that deported illegal alien Elvira Arellano be returned to the United States were so loud and boisterous in the halls of Congress, that least two of them had to be arrested.
While protesters were arrested inside, outside Congress, a Methodist minister added fuel to the fire, saying Congress' failure to adopt comprehensive immigration reform has created hardships for illegal aliens.
REV. WALTER COLEMAN, ADALBERTO METHODIST CHURCH: It has left them in a reign of terror. It has left them, really, in an attempt of ethnic cleansing.
TUCKER: That's language associated with acts of genocide. Earlier in the week, the heated rhetoric showed up in a televised debate among Democrats running for president hosted by Univision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY NOTICIAS UNIVISION)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Clinton, the negative tone of the immigration debate has left the country polarized and has created certain racist and discriminatory attitudes toward Hispanics.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Well, I think this is a very serious problem. And, as I said earlier, there are many in the political, and, frankly, in the broadcast world today, who take a particular aim at our Latino population and I think it's very destructive.
TUCKER: Yes, it was this program Senator Clinton was referring to. In the "New York Times," a spokesman for Mrs. Clinton said after the debate that she was referring to the CNN anchor Lou Dobbs, among others.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
TUCKER: And not to be left out of the escalation of language and emotion, it was just less than two weeks ago when the president of Mexico protested over the crackdown of illegal aliens in the United States terming it, "persecution and humiliating," which is ironic, Kitty, because in Mexico, illegal immigration is a felony. It comes with a prison sentence, not simply deportation -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much.
Bill Tucker.
Well, joining me now are three of the country's best political analysts.
We have Ed Rollins, Republican strategist and former White House political director under Ronald Reagan.
We have Michael Goodwin, columnist for the "New York Daily News".
And syndicated columnist Miguel Perez.
Gentlemen, thanks for being with us. You just saw Bill Tucker's report about the rhetoric escalating on the immigration debate. And this is after we've been through the legislation. This is purely for campaign purposes.
Do you see this damaging, perhaps, the Democrats who revisit this again?
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think it could be very damaging. I think it's a very polarized issue and I think it's an issue that needs calming of the waters and some thoughtfulness and not the -- not the -- you can't have an honest discussion without being called a racist and I think that's very unfortunate. I think there's a lot of -- a lot of people who are very concerned and want to solve this problem, but it's going to take some time.
PILGRIM: Well, you know, you bring up an interesting point, because when they poll the American public, immigration is a very high concern of theirs. And so it is a campaign issue. But you really slip into this language very quickly with some extremists, Michael.
MICHAEL GOODWIN, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Yes, I mean I don't remember Hillary Clinton saying anything like that in the other debates, you know, that -- where this question came up. And it's also odd because she herself voted for the fence. So I'm not sure what's racist about opposition to illegal immigration, other than the audience that she was speaking to very much favored it, in her opinion.
So it's -- that's the kind of pandering move that just always comes back to bite you later on.
PILGRIM: Yes. And it's clearly playing to the audience.
Now, Miguel, we just had another report from Lisa Sylvester that said Congress is trying to bring immigration reform piece by piece in other bits of legislation.
What do you make of that?
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, I was in favor of legalization to begin with, so I am in favor of bringing it piece by piece, if possible. And the Republicans, this is nothing new to them. They have tacked on all kinds of things to bills all the time and so the Democrats doing it now, especially with The DREAM Act, which is a, you know, you have students in high school, illegal immigrants who are in high school, and they see this dead end when they are graduating and about to go to college. And they are, you know, they are charged out of state tuition even if they live in the state for many, many years -- any particular state for many, many years. And it's unfair because what it does is it basically discourages them. It leads to dropout -- to the incredible dropout rate we have in the Hispanic community right now.
Why?
Because they see they won't be able to go to college anyway. It's unfair.
PILGRIM: Where do you weigh in on this rhetoric, though?
Certainly it is not conducive...
PEREZ: I watched the Univision debate in Spanish. I was able to understand it.
(LAUGHTER)
PILGRIM: Yes.
PEREZ: And there was a lot of rhetoric. But, you know, first of all, let's get it clear -- the Republicans were invited to a debate at Univision and only John McCain agreed to participate, so they had to cancel it. The Democrats showed up and all they did was demagoguery on Latin America -- oh, Bush has, you know, has neglected Latin America. On immigration -- oh, I'm for comprehensive immigration reform.
What does that mean?
We've had several immigration plans. I don't know what they were talking about.
What needed to be said is whether or not they are in favor of legalizing 12 million illegal immigrants. They didn't do that.
PILGRIM: All right, clarity is lacking in this entire debate.
You know, one of the big things this week was the Senate and the House previously passed legislation to stop Mexican trucks from having unlimited access to the U.S. roads. That was decried by "The Wall Street Journal" in an editorial, and I'll quote from it: "Yet another sign that the protectionists in Washington are growing more bold."
And, also, we have: "Washington might also keep in mind that Mexico is not without its own remedies under NAFTA. Retaliation could come in the form of punitive tariffs on U.S. agricultural exports, starting, say, with goods from North Dakota."
Now, of course, the reference to North Dakota, of course, that's Byron Dorgan who sponsored the legislation. But this was Congress putting their foot down on some of these trade agreements.
Do you think that we're in a new phase on this, especially in the campaign (INAUDIBLE)?
ROLLINS: I think we're in a new phase. But I think more important, this was a real serious safety issue. And I think this was a test program that they stopped. And I think people were very concerned about more trucks with drivers who have not been tested in the same way they have here, and the trucks haven't been tested. And I think there was a terrible exposure in Mexico that killed a number of people. And I think that, obviously, added to the rhetoric.
PILGRIM: (INAUDIBLE)? GOODWIN: Well, and I think there are a lot of issues coming together at the same time here, which adds to the pressure. I mean you had the toy issue from China. You had a number of products from China -- pet food, toothpaste, tire -- automobile tires, all of them defective -- found defective. And then, of course, poisoning children with lead paint is...
PILGRIM: Right.
GOODWIN: ...now, you know, is a bizarre thing, because we've outlawed lead paint in this country for years and year, and yet children are still getting sick from lead paint.
Where are they getting it?
So I think there are a lot of issues coming together here that have to do with America's relationship with the world. You know, we talked about Dubai trying to buy the ports. I mean on and on and on.
So there are a number of things for Congress to get involved in now. And I do think it's a fair and good issue for a presidential campaign.
PILGRIM: You know, the thing is, though, that if you start to take action on some of these things, you are labeled protectionist -- just a blanket label.
Miguel, how do you avoid that and still discuss this intelligently?
PEREZ: Well, look, you know, Mexican planes fly into the United States all the time, but they meet safety standards. I hope they do, anyway, because I'm flying on one soon, all right?
(LAUGHTER)
PEREZ: But, you know, so have to make sure that the trucks that are coming into this country also meet our standards. Otherwise, you know, all hell could break loose.
PILGRIM: We're talking about the campaign (INAUDIBLE).
What do you make of the report -- Rudy Giuliani targeting Clinton this early?
Should it not be among the primary candidates?
ROLLINS: Well, Rudy is pretending he's the candidate. And the truth of the matter is he's got a long, hard campaign ahead, and he may very well be the candidate. But certainly for Republicans, to go beat up on Hillary is golden. I mean it makes people pay more attention to him. It probably helps his fundraising. And I think, to a certain extent, he's assuming he's the nominee, whether he is now or not.
GOODWIN: Well, I think it's all -- it's central to his campaign. I mean he has argued from the beginning that I'm the one who can beat her. A lot of polls have shown him doing best against her -- better than the other Republicans. And I think it does energize the base. And there are certain states where he probably could turn them from blue to red. So that's -- that's his calling card. That's what he's been campaigning on. He's using that in his literature. That's why he's going directly to her.
PILGRIM: While we're at it, let's take a look at the polls, because we do have them here, the CNN poll -- and poll of polls, among Republicans, Giuliani at 28 percent; Thompson at 27 percent; McCain at 15; Romney at 11; Huckabee at 5. So we're seeing Giuliani leading in these polls.
State by state, though, it's slightly different, isn't it?
GOODWIN: Right. Right.
PILGRIM: Yes.
GOODWIN: You've got Romney doing well in New Hampshire and Iowa.
ROLLINS: And that's kind of...
(CROSSTALK)
GOODWIN: It's way too early. I mean national polls are really about name I.D. Romney still is probably less than 50 percent name I.D. He's going to win, in all probability, in Iowa and New Hampshire. He'll all of a sudden have gigantic name I.D.
McCain is actually hanging in there, even though everything has gone badly on his campaign. Once again, it's name I.D.
Rudy Giuliani still basically has that hero image from 9/11 and certainly he got it re-enforced in this past week, when people were remembering again.
A long, hard battle ahead here to win this nomination, though, and I think it's as wide open as anything that I've seen in the 40 years that I've been in politics.
PILGRIM: You know, before we continue, I should bring up the Hillary Clinton campaign -- her returning of $850,000. They're also going to do criminal backgrounds checks on fundraisers.
Is the campaign successful in putting this behind it?
Or will this continue to trail this campaign, in your opinion?
PEREZ: It says a lot when they have to start doing background checks on corners.
ROLLINS: Criminal checks.
PEREZ: criminal checks. I mean don't -- that says a lot right there. ROLLINS: Right.
PEREZ: So, you know, it's something for the Hillary camp to be concerned about.
ROLLINS: Well, there's a history. There's a history there. And, obviously, whether Bill Clinton was president, there was some fundraising -- improper people were involved, very similar to this. And I think, to a certain extent, they should have done a better scrutiny of this particular individual. And I think giving the money back is one step. But making sure it doesn't happen again is the important thing.
GOODWIN: Yes, and I think she's got to address it herself. So far, she's just been sending her public relations people out or issuing statements. She hasn't really talked about this. And I think there are a number of questions that only she can and should answer, particularly if she wants to be president.
Now, she's not had a press conference since January. She needs to, I think, face the press on these kinds of issues. Otherwise, it looks as though she's hiding.
PILGRIM: That's an interesting point, but perhaps not to be quoted too broadly on the topic, she's staying out of the limelight on this one.
GOODWIN: Right. Right.
PILGRIM: All right.
Well, we'll take a quick break and we'll come right back and we'll have more with our panel.
So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: We're back with our roundtable.
And the one subject we did not cover before the commercial was Iraq, which has clearly dominated the week in Washington. We had this very interesting testimony. We had several reports coming out.
Miguel, where do we stand now, the presidential comments on Thursday night?
Where do we stand?
PEREZ: Well, if the surge is succeeding, then what happened to reconciliation?
Because we were all told that, you know, the surge was to buy time for the Iraqis to reach some kind of agreement and come together. It hasn't happened. So, you know, I cannot see anybody calling this is a success, unless we have the political reconciliation. PILGRIM: You know what's really interesting is President Bush was very honest about this.
And let's just go to a clip of what President Bush had to say about the Iraqis falling short here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The government has not met its own legislative benchmarks. And in my meetings with Iraqi leaders, I have made it clear that they must.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Now, the administration's own report points out the shortcomings in very clear terms.
GOODWIN: Right. Yes, I think that you almost have to divide this between the military now, the government and what it is and isn't doing and what is the prospect down the road for all of these things, including sharing oil revenues, a centralized government that can be trusted and can defend the nation.
So I think you -- it's kind of piecemeal. If you break it apart, you can see there's some military success, as our soldiers are fighting heroically and we're making great sacrifice in doing this.
The question is, as Miguel points out, what are we doing with that?
What's the space being, you know, that we're supposed to be filling there?
What's happening there?
And in a national level, despite the national government standards, not much (ph). And that's the big problem, because without that, the militias are going to keep killing each other and us.
PILGRIM: Well, one of...
ROLLINS: And...
PILGRIM: I'm sorry, Ed, but one of the disturbing things for me was General Petraeus just saying past this summer, it's really a question mark.
ROLLINS: Well, I think it is. And I think General Petraeus was very, very honest and I think he has had success in his surge and what he attempted to do. Obviously, the time will run out when we won't have sufficient troops, and the withdrawal is really about that as much as anything else.
The key thing here, though, is this government has not stepped up. Their army has not stepped up. And I think President Bush has made it very clear as long as he's president, we're going to stay there. And it's going to be us fighting and no expectations that they're going to fight. And I think the Democrats failed miserably to make any kind of case against the terrorists or anybody else this week. And I think there was too much showboating and not enough real -- real analytical (INAUDIBLE)...
PEREZ: Not only did he say that, he said it's going to extend beyond his presidency...
ROLLINS: Right. Yes.
PEREZ: ...which is really troubling because...
GOODWIN: Well, but I think that was always clear. I mean -- I mean he said it this week, you're right. I'm not (INAUDIBLE) he said it.
ROLLINS: Right.
GOODWIN: But I think it's been for a long time. This was not going to turn over -- even if it started having great success now, you don't pull 130,000 troops -- a hundred -- you know, out of there in a year. It's just not going to happen.
So, realistically, the next president is going to have to deal with it.
In the short-term, I think the presidential campaign is very much going to hinge on how it's going a year from now, whether we have -- the next president is a Democrat or a Republican, I think it's largely going to turn on how our forces are doing and what the Iraqi government is doing next September.
ROLLINS: And it really makes the war the most important issue in the next campaign.
PILGRIM: Well, you could see the political spin, actually, this week -- the advanced discussion of whether General Petraeus would be honest, if the White House would temper his remarks in any way, the attempts to discredit him in the media.
You see a political overlay over this testimony this week.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But...
PILGRIM: In the end, how do you think he fared?
ROLLINS: I think he fared well. I think the Democrats hurt themselves. I think people like Barbara Boxer and the MoveOn.org outrageous commercial and Hillary and others basically all sort of supporting that, I think they hurt themselves badly this week.
GOODWIN: Yes. I thought that -- I thought that MoveOn.org was outrageous. I thought it really was a scandalous smear on a man who is risking his life and leading our -- leading our country in war. I mean it's outrageous.
ROLLINS: It was really outrageous...
GOODWIN: And I'm not a Republican, and I found that outrageous.
PILGRIM: Yes, I mean his -- his record stands on -- for itself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
PILGRIM: And perhaps because it was so extreme, it actually had the opposite effect, that everyone rallied.
PEREZ: I'm not a Republican either and it was outrageous. But Giuliani politicizing this whole thing now, trying to tie Hillary to MoveOn, it's also outrageous. I mean, you know, it's -- it's going too far. We are politicizing our military by bringing Petraeus in, by everybody, you know, trying to bring this whole thing into the political mix when, you know, we should respect our military. We should listen to what they have to say and then make political decisions separately.
PILGRIM: I think we can all agree with that.
And on that note, I thank you.
Ed Rollins, Michael Goodwin, Miguel Perez, thank you.
Just ahead, Heroes, our weekly tribute to the men and women to those who serve in uniform. And tonight we introduce you to Marine Major Frank Diorio, awarded the Bronze Star for bravery.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: And now Heroes, our weekly tribute to the men and women who serve this country in uniform.
Tonight, we introduce you to Marine Major Frank Diorio. Major Diorio was awarded the Bronze Star with valor for leading more than 275 missions over a seven month period along the Iraq/Syria border.
And as Philippa Holland reports, there was one particular fight that is memorable for this Marine.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
MAJ. FRANK DIORIO, UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS: When you talk about leadership, I want to why to follow him.
PHILIPPA HOLLAND, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER (voice-over): Major Frank Diorio -- teaching leadership to the next generation of U.S. Marines at Virginia Military Institute. A lot has changed for Diorio in the past few years. Being in this classroom environment
DIORIO: How are you doing?
HOLLAND: ...and having time to spend with his wife and 2-year-old daughter are considered a blessing after what he's gone through.
April 11th, 2005 -- the Marine base of Camp Gannon along the Syrian border in Husaybah, Iraq -- a day Major Diorio will never forget.
DIORIO: I heard the words come over the radio. It said -- it was a Marine yelling, "fire truck, fire truck, fire truck," which, everyone knew what that meant. We had known that there was a fire truck somewhere in Al Anbar Province that was stolen and we were just (INAUDIBLE) to make the assumption of what they stole it for.
HOLLAND: Insurgents attacked the base with three suicide car bombs. The apparent mission -- to kill U.S. soldiers and take over the camp. That mission failed.
DIORIO: We started getting calls in. And the first team that called in said (INAUDIBLE) no casualties. The second team that called in said second team, no casualties. The third team called in and said third team, no casualties. And the fourth team called in and said (INAUDIBLE) and said weapons team, no casualties. And then the attachments called in and one after another, one after another, one after another said we don't have any casualties.
HOLLAND: No food, no sleep, no casualties during three solid days of fighting in what was considered the most dangerous city in Al Anbar Province. Diorio did not lose a single Marine during any of the 275 engagements in the seven months he led in Iraq.
DIORIO: My job is to lead this company. And my (INAUDIBLE) they deserve (INAUDIBLE) deserve to have someone who's going to give them 110 percent.
HOLLAND: It's a mission Diorio says he'll remember for the rest of his life.
DIORIO: I can close my eyes and get back there. I can close my eyes and get back there very easily.
HOLLAND: But for now, Diorio is here -- training young cadets.
Philippa Holland, CNN.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PILGRIM: An admirable young man.
We wish him well.
Still ahead, more of your thoughts and the results of tonight's poll.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now, the results of tonight's poll -- 98 percent of you do not trust the Congress to heed the will of the people and refuse to accept any new illegal alien amnesty legislation. Time now for some of your thoughts.
And Toni wrote to us from South Carolina: "I was watching Bush last night, still begging for patience that we have run out of, still pretending we can win without explaining just what "win" means. How stupid does he think we are?"
And Dennis wrote to us: "The president's promise that U.S. troops will return on success is a conundrum since he keeps changing the meaning of success -- or is it victory?"
Mary in Minnesota: "Let me get this straight, the toy companies didn't want to pay the American people a living wage to make their toys, so they went to China. They got exactly what they paid for -- namely, dangerous and defective toys. But now they want to force us to pay for their greedy discussions by charging more for their toys. I do believe the word crooks has taken on a whole new meaning.
Vince in New Jersey has the last word tonight: "What can you expect from a Congress that cannot even vote that English is the official language of the United States?"
Each of you whose e-mail is read here will receive a copy of Joseph Califano's book, "High Society".
We love hearing from you.
Send us your thought at loudobbs.com.
Thanks for being with us tonight.
Please join us tomorrow.
For all of us here, thanks for watching.
Good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" starts right now with Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
