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Iran's President in New York City; Is There a Jena 6 in Every City?

Aired September 23, 2007 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: The so-called axis of evil here in the U.S. Iran's president is sleeping in New York City tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH: I think it is an outrage against civilization.

DOV HIKIND, NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY: Make his life miserable!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: He's accused of feeding the enemy in Iraq. He thinks the Holocaust was a myth. He wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. And wait until you hear what he said just tonight. So why is one university rolling out the welcome mat for Iran's president?

Is there a Jena 6 in every city? Are young black men railroaded into jail?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Half of the American kids are far more likely to be arrested by police.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Prison in black and white, is there bias in the U.S. justice system?

Racism in America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that it's real. It's just unfortunate that it is real.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's a lot less than it used to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Two different views, one country.

What do these places have in common? The St. Louis arch, route 66, the bathroom stall where Senator Craig took his wide stance. All tourist attractions in the Midwest. Really, we're not kidding. And good evening, everyone. I am Tony Harris. And you are in the CNN NEWSROOM. He has arrived in New York City, a man U.S. officials accused of building nuclear weapons and providing bombs that kill American troops. The president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. He is the face of defiance and denial in the Middle East. And his visit is already drawing protest as you can see.

And you know how our president feels about him. Remember the words 'axis of evil?' Iran's president will speak to the United Nations' general assembly. That is the main reason he is here.

But tonight, we're discussing his other plans, namely to speak to students and teachers at an Ivy League university. And those plans are making people in this country very, very angry. CNN's Jim Acosta gets us started.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before he boarded his plane for New York, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said he's on a mission to deliver correct and clear information to the American people, but when the Iranian leader arrives at Columbia University for a scheduled speech as part of his official visit.

DOV HIKIND, NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY: I call on New Yorkers to make the life of Ahmadinejad as he is in New York miserable. Make his life miserable!

ACOSTA: Ahmadinejad might find himself on the receiving end of a message from New Yorkers.

You seem to be actively encouraging what?

HIKIND: Civil disobedience. If New Yorkers would stop this man from coming into this university, you know, sort of along the line of Martin Luther King's civil disobedience, I think that would be very proper. No violence, God forbid, but civil disobedience.

ACOSTA: New York's Jewish leaders can see there's no stopping the Iranian president from addressing the United Nations as a head of state, just as he did last year, but Columbia they say is different, especially considering Ahmadinejad's statements calling for the elimination of Israel. Paula Blank's family visits relatives in Israel every year.

In your mind, is Ahmadinejad a terrorist?

PAULA BLANK, NEW YORK CITY RESIDENT: Without a doubt, he's a terrorist. I mean, he says it. He doesn't deny it. He says what his goals are.

ANITA KHALILI, COLUMBIA UNIV. STUDENT: I think it's very important for him to see how wrong he is, how students are going to protest and react against him.

ACOSTA: Columbia student Anita Khalili is conflicted. Born in Iran, but also Jewish, she wants the Iranian leader to see how free speech really works, even though she say she's ashamed of the image he offers of her home.

KHALILI: To be Persian now means to be associated with someone that's a cruel dictator. And that's not what it means at all.

ACOSTA: University officials who invited Ahmadinejad say it's about an exchange of ideas.

RICHARD BULLIET, PROF., COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: It's an educational benefit for the Columbia community to be able to have a firsthand acquaintance with the man.

ACOSTA: Not good enough says Senator Hillary Clinton.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If I were a president of the university, I would not have invited him. He's a Holocaust denier. He's a supporter of terrorism.

ACOSTA (on camera): Last year, Columbia invited Ahmadinejad to speak, but then withdrew the offer, citing security concerns. This time around, the university appears to be ready to open the floor to the Iranian leader.

Jim Acosta, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: So should the president of Iran be allowed to visit and speak to students and faculty at an American Ivy League university? You know, the question is bigger, really. Is there a line we draw when it comes to freedom of speech? Plenty was said on the subject on the Sunday talk shows, as some of the answers and who gives them may surprise you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY KISSINGER, FMR. SECY. OF STATE: Ahmadinejad is the first speaker in a distinguished lecture series under the auspices of the president of Columbia University. And I do not believe that that is an appropriate invitation.

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINKSI, FMR. NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: It seems to me that the function of the university is to provide a forum for the expression of every point of view, including the most obnoxious. I don't believe in censorship. I don't believe in some sort of thought control.

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: I think we violate every premise of who we are when we don't allow people to speak in this country.

GINGRICH: I think it is an outrage against civilization for Columbia University to lend its prestige and its status to a man -- to a dictator whose government executes homosexuals, tortures and kills journalists, locks up students. The Iranian government locks up students. I think that Columbia University is being very foolish to allow that kind of person to have a venue like an American university.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Let's get straight to the core of why people are outraged. President Ahmadinejad has a well-documented history of making divisive and hostile statements, particularly regarding Israel.

Just a couple of quotes here. He was called -- he has called the Holocaust a myth, wrongly used to justify Israel's existence. He's called for Israel to, in his words, be wiped off the map. And his suggestion for Israel, move it to Europe and make room for a Palestinian state.

But let's hear from the man himself. He spoke to "60 Minutes" in Tehran. And the interviewer directly asked him about Iran's involvement in Iraq and about his body language. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCOTT PELLEY, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Are you saying that it is not the policy of this government to send weapons into Iraq? Sir, forgive me, you're smiling, but this is a very serious matter to America.

MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, , PRESIDENT IRAN (through translator): It's serious for us as well. I daresay it's serious for everyone. It seems to me it's laughable for someone to turn a blind eye to the truth and accuse others. It doesn't help. And the reason that I'm smiling, again, it's because that the picture is so clear, but American officials refuse to see.

PELLEY: Mr. President, can you tell me that you are not sending weapons to Iraq, very simple, very directly?

AHMADINEJAD: We don't need to do that. We are very much opposed to war and insecure...

PELLEY: Is that no, sir?

AHMADINEJAD: It's very clear, the situation. The insecurity in Iraq is detrimental to our interest.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Shireen Hunter is with me now. She is with the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Serene, good to see you.

SHIREEN HUNTER: Thank you.

HARRIS: Thanks for taking time this evening. Are people outraged because the Iranian president is on American soil? He's certainly been here before or because of what he plans to do on American soil, namely visit and speak at Columbia University?

HUNTER: Well, I think that, obviously, a number of people, as was shown in your program, are upset of the fact that Columbia University, given its prestige, is offering him a forum to express his views because, as far as being on U.S. soil, this kind of goes, unfortunately, with the territory, you know? United Nations is on American soil. And a lot of leaders with whom we haven't had - we have had trouble, problems, you know, like (INAUDIBLE) during the Cold War...

HARRIS: Sure.

HUNTER: ...or even Fidel Castro. But I think that the whole issue here is that he's going a very prestigious university. And that seems to make it a little bit more difficult.

HARRIS: Yes, Serene, what is your take on this? The invitation, should it have been extended?

HUNTER: Well, I think, frankly, given the rather very difficult situation that we are in now in the Middle East and in, you know, South Asia, and the fact that, for example, we are asking certain things from Iran, like to help us in the stabilization of Iraq and so on, it wouldn't be such a good idea to, you know, to actually have him in an environment. He is not the only one that is going to, you know, express his point of view.

HARRIS: Sure. Sure.

HUNTER: Others are going to face him with difficult questions, including, for example, how dare you to deny Holocaust.

HARRIS: Yes.

HUNTER: How dare you to say these things? And I think it might tell us solitary insight if he realizes that, you know, war is not cheap. In other words, some of the statements that he makes, it really affects people very deeply, and also affects his country, his relations with the other part of the world.

HARRIS: Yes.

HUNTER: So, yes, I can understand why people are upset that he's going have a chance to speak, but it's also an opportunity for others to kind of grill him.

HARRIS: And here's the other -- maybe another reason.

HUNTER: Right.

HARRIS: Just a take on why folks are upset.

HUNTER: Right.

HARRIS: They've heard these pronouncements. You've just listed them again. Don't we know all we need to know about this man? And what do you -- what do you expect tomorrow?

HUNTER: Well, I think that whether he is naive or whatever, he really do believe that Iran's case, particularly as far as their nuclear program is concerned, is not well understood in America. And he thinks that by, you know, reassuring, saying that, you know, they are not pursuing a weapons program and so on, he might actually change the international atmosphere. And I don't know. He probably is too naive and unless there are some other things that are put on the table and certain issues are discussed. This, whatever he says, is not going to have such a big impact.

HARRIS: Sure.

HUNTER: But the situation is very tense. It's very dangerous. We might be heading for another crisis. So you know, if something may come out of it, why not try it?

HARRIS: OK. Shireen Hunter, appreciate your time this evening.

HUNTER: Thank you.

HARRIS: Thank you.

Again, President Ahmadinejad speaks at Columbia University tomorrow afternoon. And on Wednesday, he sits down with CNN's Christiane Amanpour for a one-on-one interview. Be sure to tune in for that. That is Wednesday night at 10 Eastern on "A.C. 360."

Other news now. What's to become of the civilian security company Blackwater and their heavily armed presence in Iraq? They're back at work this weekend, guarding U.S. diplomats and VIPS, but the Iraqi government wants them tossed out. It is complicated.

CNN's Suzanne Simons breaks it down.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE SIMONS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Seemingly dug in and ready for battle, Iraq's interior ministry said Sunday it plans to file criminal charges against employees of security contractor Blackwater after a deadly gun battle in a Baghdad neighborhood a week ago.

The ministry claims that Blackwater employees opened fire unprovoked, as they escorted State Department personnel in the area. And that as many as 20 civilians were killed. A high-placed industry source tells CNN that Blackwater employees were responding to hostile fire from all directions.

But U.S. officials haven't commented on the details of the investigation, only saying that a joint U.S.-Iraqi committee has been set up to look into it. Another official with the Iraqi interior ministry tells CNN that the Iraqi government has photos and video of the incident taken by Iraqi national police, but that video has not been made public.

On Sunday, Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was asked about it.

NOURI AL-MALIKI (through translator): The latest event is a very unfortunate event that occurred in Baghdad. We are investigating it. We want the Americans to deal with the investigation and to see whether there is a video.

SIMONS: Just how the Iraqi government would bring the contractors to court has yet to be explained. There's no clear venue for prosecuting a contractor accused of wrongdoing. Security contractors in the country have operated without being subject to Iraqi law since power was handed over to the Iraqi government by the coalition provisional authority. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice commented on the need for U.S. diplomats to use contract security services on Friday.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: It is extremely important to recognize that we're doing important work there. We need protection for our diplomats And I'm quite certain that with goodwill, we can resolve this.

SIMONS: Blackwater resumed operations in the country over the weekend, as a joint investigation into just what happened continues.

Suzanne Simons, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: We asked the State Department about these reported pictures and video of the alleged civilian killings. They say they have no knowledge and no access. No comment from Blackwater USA either. They can't say anything citing the terms of their government contract.

Now a quick update on a story that we fully and unapologetically call our very own here at CNN. We are still very much in the early stages of young Youssif's treatment and recovery. You will recall he is a little Iraqi boy who was so brutally attacked, set on fire by insurgents at his home in Baghdad. He is in a Los Angeles hospital tonight, already having undergone one surgery. And we're told he will undergo a separate operation tomorrow. We will keep you posted.

And still to come tonight on the CNN NEWSROOM, a horrible plane crash. You see that bloody, dazed man sitting in the middle of the wreckage? His amazing ordeal straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

And after massive rallies in Jena, is this small town ready for reconciliation? We will take you there. Plus, Josh Levs on racism in America.

JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Did Jena expose views on how Americans see our entire country? You know, in the town of Jena, we're hearing a lot of African-American residents say there's a lot of racism. Whereas as lot of whites say, there aren't. Is it the same nationwide?

Coming up, we're going to look at the different perceptions of race in America. That's right here, Tony, in the CNN NEWSROOM.

HARRIS: OK, Josh, appreciate it. Thank you. Also coming up, no thick heels, lose the suits, and please, please no red. Some fashion tips for Hillary Clinton. And we will tell you who's handing out the advice. ,

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: All right. Our top video pick tonight, video that literally stopped us in our tracks when we saw it. Look at this. He is dazed, bloody and sitting in the wreckage of his small cargo plane. This pilot was seriously hurt when he crashed Friday along I-95 in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. No one else, thankfully, was hurt.

Hobart, Australia now. Again, we see a lot of fires here in the NEWSROOM, but these pictures again stopped us in our tracks. Look at this, billowing smoke, angry, raging flames. A major department store virtually gutted by fire. The blaze at the historic building cost millions of dollars in damage. No injuries reported. And no word on a cause. We'll be back after a quick break.

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HARRIS: The nation's capital, Washington, D.C. You are looking at the White House now. The president, we understand, spent the weekend in Washington. It's after 9:00, so the president is probably resting now. Back to work first thing in the morning.

You know, it was an important day for the frazzled residents of Jena, Louisiana. On Thursday, thousands of people descended on the small town to stage a peaceful civil rights protest. Today, there was a lot of talk about healing and coming together in a town struggling to keep from being torn apart.

Here's CNN's Sean Callebs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The attention in Jena, Louisiana switched from the streets to the pulpit.

Now, many residents here say is it time for the community to begin to heal?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love the boys that were being accused of these things. And I love the boys that were attacked. I love them all.

EILEEN MILLSAP, MIDWAY PENTECOSTAL CHURCH MEMBER: I just hate what's going on, but I know God can fix it.

CALLEBS: The congregation at the Midway Pentecostal Church is convinced many people across the United States look at Jena as a racially-intolerant and insensitive town. And that, they argue, isn't fair.

JIMMY WILSON, MIDWAY PENTECOSTAL CHURCH MEMBER: There's nothing like what was portrayed. The churches in this area do not trade as it was. They're not like that.

CALLEBS: The congregation at historically black Antioch Baptist Church remained upbeat after Thursday's peaceful demonstration. The Reverend Brian Moran says people here, too, want reconciliation. But he says before wounds can heal, a big chunk of this community must first admit there has been a long, simmering problem.

BRIAN MORAN, REV., ANTIOCH BAPTIST CHURCH: It ain't about race. It ain't about this. It ain't about that. I mean, there has been racially-motivated things that have taken place.

CALLEBS: Many residents in this town that's 85 percent white resent the nationwide scrutiny, but for those who think the protest ended with the march last week, members of this church have a message. Think again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe that the white community and the black community need to come together as one, as we have in this rally. We all need to come together as one instead of, you know, apart and separate.

CALLEBS (on camera): For residents here who would simply like to see the issue fade away, here's one more item to consider. The Reverend Al Sharpton has indicated he plans on going to Capitol Hill this week in an effort to get a congressional investigation launched.

Sean Callebs, CNN, Jena, Louisiana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Look, the case in Jena exposed a divide in that small Louisiana town, with many black residents saying racism is widespread in the area, and many whites say the town is getting an unfair rap. Is it like that throughout America? Do different races have a different perception of how much racism there is in the country? CNN's Josh Levs has been looking into that. And he joins with some answers.

Josh, what did you find?

LEVS: Hey, well, you know, you inspired this. I was watching you in Jena, some of our other reporters. And we kept seeing it over and over...

HARRIS: Yes.

LEVS: ...that all of these black people kept saying there's so much racism. And the white people who talked to us kept saying there wasn't.

HARRIS: Right.

LEVS: And it really got me thinking about whether that's true nationally and how we view our nation as a people. So guess what? CNN is the place that has the answers. Let me show you some of these answers. There was actually a poll that was conducted for CNN in December, asking people is racism in the U.S. a very serious problem? In America, half the blacks said yes, but only 18 percent of whites in America think racism is a very serious problem.

Let's go to the next one now. This is about people's perceptions of each other. Do all or many white people dislike blacks? Black people, 40 percent of them, think most white people dislikes blacks. Whites, only about a quarter. All right?

Now we're going to look at one more. And that's the opposite. That's the opposite question. That is do many blacks dislike whites? That's the only place where the numbers were about the same. It came out to one-third, approximately.

HARRIS: Well...

LEVS: We're not saying that one.

HARRIS: Sure.

LEVS: OK. Now we want to show you what some people around CNN told us.

HARRIS: Right, right.

LEVS: You went out there. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think people are more educated now. And they have less ill feelings about other people and other cultures.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not so much a matter of racism. I think it's more a matter of people not being open to other cultures, other people's differences, ethnicities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that it probably still exists. I think that a lot of times, the media and the news sources kind of glamorize it a little bit too much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people are secretly racist. Some people are racist and don't even know it. A lot of people are just ignorant. And the more we try to act like it's not an issue, the more it will continue. And people will start to express their ignorance in dangerous ways that really affect the entire country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEVS: And Tony, we've got a lot more about this at CNN.com...

HARRIS: Right.

LEVS: A lot more about this poll. And you can see the different perceptions right there. HARRIS: All right, Josh, appreciate it.

LEVS: You bet.

HARRIS: Still to come in the NEWSROOM tonight, a question for you. Is the criminal justice system treating black people different than white? It is a claim I heard again and again while reporting from Jena, Louisiana. So we started looking for answers. What we found in about six minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Is there a Jena 6 in every city? Are young black men railroaded into jail?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Half the American kids are far more likely to be arrested by police.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Prison in black and white. Is there bias in the U.S. justice system? What do these places have in common? The St. Louis Arch, route 66, the bathroom stall where Senator Craig took his wide stance, all tourist attractions in the Midwest. Really? We're not kidding.

Is wedded bliss not so blissful any more? Ever get that seven year itch and want out? A proposed law says still seven years and you're done.

And cool jazz, Monterey style. Diana Krall in the CNN NEWSROOM.

OK, let's get to it. Topping our dog bone politics, news with the bite, the fashionistas want to help Senator Hillary Clinton sashay back into the White House, but not in those heels. Italian designer Donatella Versace says the presidential candidate's thick-heeled shoes are passe. And she needs a sleeker heel. Plus, she's simply got to stay away from those suits. Versace says they make her look too stiff.

Senator Larry Craig's bathroom bust may be ruining his career, but it is creating a new tourist attraction. The folks at Minneapolis airport say tourists can't seem to get enough of the mens room, where Craig was arrested in a sex solicitation sting. It is not exactly sandals we're talking about here. One airport worker says she was only 15 minutes into her shift and was asked four times for the location of the now infamous bathroom stall.

President Bush may be making some crank calls to his old amigo in Mexico this week. That's because former President Vicente FOX badmouths Mr. Bush in his autobiography, calling him, "the cockiest guy I've ever met. He blames President Bush's stubbornness on Iraq for bad international relations. He even bashes his Spanish, saying it's "grade school level." And still to come in the NEWSROOM tonight, is there fair and equal treatment for African-Americans in our justice system? Some say no. Some say yes. We crunch the stats straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

Plus, would you say I do if it didn't mean forever? A proposed law that would allow you to opt out of your marriage after seven years. Crazy? Or great idea? We will find out straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: New York City. Leaders from all over the world in New York for the UN General Assembly session this week. Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki hoping to win greater support for his country from the United Nation, but will he be heard over the ruckus being generated by Iran's president?

You know, while covering the March and rally in Jena, Louisiana, last week many people told me that minorities, especially young ones are treated differently than whites by the criminal justice system. So we went looking for hard evidence. You're about to meet David Utter, co-founder of the Juvenile Justice Project of Louisiana. He is also the attorney for the youngest of the Jena 6.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you haven't heard from me in a long time, but I really, really, really need you all now.

HARRIS: Cries for help like this one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they are really mistreating us with a whole bunch of issues. It is very, very serious.

HARRIS: Is why David Uter and two other attorneys founded the Juvenile Justice Project of Louisiana.

DAVID UTTER, LAWYER, JJPL: When we opened up back in 1997 it was with the explicit purpose of addressing the issues in the juvenile justice system here in Louisiana.

HARRIS: Statistics compiled by the Louisiana Office of Youth Development seemed to indicate a significant number of African American youth are populating detention centers.

UTTER: I don't think there's anybody that can deny it. You know, when we were working on juvenile justice reform that resulted in landmark legislation back in 2003, the statistics speak for themselves.

HARRIS: Here's what he's referring to. African Americans make up 40 percent of the population of Louisiana. Yet African American youth make up 80 percent of incarcerated youth. Dana Kaplan is the executive director of the JJPL in New Orleans. She works closely with David Utter who is now representing the youngest suspect in the Jena 6 case.

DANA KAPLAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, JJPL: While on the one hand I think that we're excited to see that the Jena 6 were finally getting the type of legal representation that they deserve. We want to make sure that the same type of national focus can be turned to the case of every child and so that every child in Louisiana and in this country gets access to, you know, supreme counsel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Well that's one picture of justice in Louisiana, but nationwide is the legal system disproportionately tougher on black defendants? Is there bias in the system? Joining us in our Sunday spotlight is former prosecutor and law professor Wendy Murphy from Newton, Massachusetts. Wendy, good to see you.

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Good to be with you, Tony.

HARRIS: And Pamela Bethel, a former prosecutor and current defense attorney. Pamela, great to see you as well.

PAMELA BETHEL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good to see you, Tony.

HARRIS: Let me look at these statistics and run these by you here. Nationally, 37 percent of all U.S. inmates are black men, but African Americans make up only 13 percent of the U.S. population. Wendy, I want to come to you with the first question here, but another stat here. Eighty percent of incarcerated youth in Louisiana are black. Only 40 percent of the state's population is black. Just an open-ended question and then we'll get specific. What's going on here?

MURPHY: You know, it's a really hard question to answer based just on that date. Look. There's got to be some there, there when people have studied there and consistently say there's something wrong. And frankly, sometimes, Tony, the perception whether justice is being done is almost more important than whether in fact it's being done based on the numbers.

I mean, the bottom line is you can have a breakdown in population and a legitimate explanation for why a certain type of person in society is committing more crimes. You can make a class-based argument that people are committing more crimes because they're desperate and so forth, the bottom line is the numbers are important enough to ask the next question, which is if the justice system is disproportionately prosecuting black people, more harshly expect prosecuting black people, how can expect anybody to feel comfortable about the civility of this nation.

HARRIS: Pam, just a quick thought and then I want to move on to another question. What do you think? What's going on here?

BETHEL: Well, I tend to agree with Wendy. The issue is race and economics. And I think it's hard to separate the economic issue out of the racial issue.

HARRIS: Gotcha.

BETHEL: Particularly in certain small towns of Middle America, Deep South, the people there in the black -- or African American tend not to be, even in the middle income group, they tend to be in a lower income group and therefore, I think they suffer both maladies, both being black and being poor.

HARRIS: All right. Pam and Wendy, let me take this up with both of you. Let's sort of get down to the rub here. Have either of you worked in a D.A.'s office where you felt prosecution decisions were being made based on race, religion, ethnicity? Wendy, do you want to start with that?

MURPHY: You know what? You forgot gender.

HARRIS: Gender.

MURPHY: I have worked in a prosecutor's office. Yeah, and look, I've just written this book called "And Justice for Some" where I talk primarily about the failure of our legal system to direct targeted violence toward women and children and the answer is yes, I've been a prosecutor in a system that consistently failed to redress targeted violence against women and children and in my opinion it's based on gender prejudice. Yes, I've seen prejudice myself.

HARRIS: Let me stop you there because I want to ask the question, how that was expressed? How was that bias expressed in the meetings, in the halls because I'm trying to get at the root of how it manifests itself in overcharging or whatever we think the real problem is here?

MURPHY: Well, I tell you how I saw it manifest. We would be able to look at the number of reports that come into the prosecutor's office. Let's say there are a hundred in a given year and there would only be 10 cases actually prosecuted. We had, in a sense, glaring data that 90 percent of the cases were being declined by the prosecution --

HARRIS: So the numbers can help us?

MURPHY: Absolutely. They force us to answer the next tough question because nobody walks around the office going oh, yeah, let's not go forward on that case because the victim is black or the victim is female.

HARRIS: What's that next tough question.

MURPHY: The next tough questions, show me the breakdown in the expenditures in your budget. How are your spending your pie of public money, which means we're entitled to the answer to that question, show me the data, show me the data, show me the money. We never ask. We have to politicize who we elect as prosecutors in this country. We've never done that if we want the real answers to those very important questions.

HARRIS: And Pam, very quickly. Have you worked in a D.A.'s office where these decisions were being made? Where you watched these decisions being made based on -No?

BETHEL: I can say unequivocally no. But I was at the federal level and quite frankly every person I put in jail was a white male. So they were doing white collar criminal activity. So it was a little different, but I do agree with Wendy to the extent that we have to take a look at, we do have to hold prosecutors accountable. I think that is a major failing. I think that the power of prosecutors is just enormous, and if we elect them or they're appointed and they're somebody's brother-in-law or somebody's cousin that they went to law school with I think that's irresponsible. They've got to be people of good moral character and good conscience. And fair.

HARRIS: Well, let's leave it there on a Sunday evening. Great to have you both with us. I mean, this is big for us. Wendy, thank you. Pam, thank you.

MURPHY: Thank you.

BETHEL: OK. Thank you.

HARRIS: You know, everyone seems to have an opinion about the Jena 6 case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am sick and tired of having to stand up for my color.

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HARRIS: Wow! An eight-year-old. With a lot on his mind. And he really expressed himself while on his journey to Jena.

Take a look at this. Cars swallowed by mud, 14 of them. Fourteen cars. We'll have that straight ahead.

Plus, till death to us part? One proposed law says you only need to put seven years in the relationship and then you can opt out. Huh? Details straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

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HARRIS: OK. Imagine this. You're diagnosed with cancer and you have to get your leg amputated and you're just nine years old. Well, that's what happened to tonight's CNN Hero, but he realized that losing a limb doesn't mean losing a dream.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm rolling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

JOSH SUNDQUIST, "COMMUNITY CRUSADER": There's no way you can sort of separate having an amputation from the rest of my life. People ask you, did it change you? It changes everything. I was a kid knowing no one would beat me in the footrace and I figured I was probably one of the fastest people in the world. That's what I told myself. I started having pain in my left leg when I was nine years old. The doctor thought cancer. A lot of grieving happened for me before I lost my leg. I really remember thinking can I go out and live a normal life with one leg?

An amputee that I'm at with a guy named Larry Klopek (ph), like he drove a convertible. He had a normal job and I was just, like, wow, he lives like a normal life. That was really like what turned the corner for me. I don't think most amputees have friends that are also amputees.

Online there wasn't really a good place for people to, like, meet centrally, provide information and ask for information and meet other people and so, I thought that just needs to happen.

I'm Josh Sundquist and I created an online community for amputees to meet other amputees and ask questions and get answers.

I wanted it to be a catchy name like "Give Me a Hand" or like "A Leg Up" and every pun I can think of was taken. So finally I thought of "Less than Four." Which admittedly is not quite a pun, but it's kind of catchy and also can be sweetly abbreviated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I stumbled across the site looking for a t- shirt with an amputee on it. The site seems pretty cool.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a bad habit of staring at people that are staring at my arm.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You make me laugh and if you only knew how much that helps me out.

SUNDQUIST: And the best to know is that the community is sort of rising up, leaders from within are sort of taking the baton to help other amputees. And I think that's pretty cool.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: That is pretty cool. You can go to cnn.com/heroes to find out more about Josh Sundquist and check out video clips from his Web site's members and while there you can nominate your own hero.

Coming up in the NEWSROOM tonight, chomp! Look at that! The girl, the surf board and, yes, the bite. You've got to be kidding. Straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

And the magical place. Terrific musicians and unbelievable performances, the Monterey Jazz Festival is in full swing and we'll take you there. Fifteen minute away and we'll take you there in the NEWSROOM.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My car was floating in the mud.

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HARRIS: Man, and it happened really, like that. Look at what drivers in Los Angeles had to dig out of this weekend. A sudden storm triggers a sudden mudslide, trapping more than a dozen cars in more than two feet of muck on a roadway. Fortunately, no one injured. Man.

Jacqui Jeras keeping an eye on a couple of messy situations in the CNN severe weather center. Good to see you, Jacqui. Where is this thing headed?

JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, it's heading east after dropping 2,500 tons of mud. Yeah, that's a big mess to clean up, but they think that should be out of there before the morning rush hour. That's good news. This storm traveling eastward is still causing trouble at this hour. Severe thunderstorms across the Dakotas and watches in place. Several reports of some large hail could see some damaging winds out of this tonight as well.

We're keeping an eye on the tropics. We've got a large trough of low pressure here in the Gulf of Mexico. Some development is possible in the next couple of days and it's bringing lots of moisture already to the central Gulf Coast with some heavy showers and thunderstorms. We also have a tropical wave near the coast of Africa. Development of this one is very likely in the next 12 to 24 hours. We may see a tropical depression some time tomorrow.

We also have Tropical Storm Jerry. You're like, what? ? Hello? Jerry, where did that come from? Well, it's in the middle of nowhere and going nowhere. Are you headed somewhere tomorrow?

It's time for flight tracker. Things are looking really good across the Northeastern corridor, but if you had across the Great Lakes into the western lakes could see a little trouble. Minneapolis, also Kansas City and St. Louis expecting minor delays and more thunderstorms in Florida. So watch out Tampa to Miami, things look good out West but maybe 15 minutes for you in Salt Lake City and also into Denver. Tony, happy first day of fall.

HARRIS: Yes! Thank you! Whipping through those maps. Jacqui Jeras for us. Jacqui, thank you.

So in Florida, bull shark overboard tops our, you've got to be kidding segment tonight. Yeah. That big chunk missing out of that surf board, the shark bit down just as Jessica Riley, for reasons she can't even explain, decide to pull her arm out of the water.

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JESSICA RILEY, SHARK ATTACK SURVIVOR: As soon as I raised it out like this thing just comes up and just chomps right on.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS: Man. Jessica and the deadly predator are eye to eye at this point, OK. The shark pulls her under, but swims off without hurting her. Think this guardian angel likes surfing or what?

Too bad Britney Spears doesn't have one of those. Instead the singer has a new hit and run charge. She can thank the LAPD for sending her to the top of the chart oh and then there's that driving without a license thing. Yeah. You think it was a good move to leave the scene when the L.A. paparazzi was out there in full force snapping pictures of you, Brit? Where do you think we got the video? Seriously, come on. It's called a chauffeur. Check into it.

And till death to us -- not so much. The seven-year itch could become a legal rite of passage if one German lawmaker has her way. Here's ITN reporter Rags Martel.

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RAGS MARTEL, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Till death to us part. Until now, the essential vow of a marriage, but what happens when the honeymoon is over? Well, a German politician has come up with a radical solution.

GABRIELLE PAULI, GERMAN POLITICIAN (through translator): I propose marriage to expire after seven years. That means in the future people would enter marriages on a time limited basis and would then actively say yes to an extension.

MARTEL: Gabrielle Pauli believes a seven-year limit would avoid much financial and emotional heartache in Germany. It would help lower the country's divorce rate, but surprisingly her proposal has shocked many church leaders. But her idea does have some support here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds about right, really. It's always a turning point after seven years.

MARTEL: Should love be forever?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, it's a bit hard these days, isn't it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I think the old institutions are the best. Why shouldn't we have a good marriage and work at it?

MARTEL: Ms. Pauli's suggestion probably comes from experience. Her second marriage ended in divorce last February. It lasted seven years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: That was Rags Martel reporting.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Jena, Louisiana, the destination, the cause. CNN rides along for the bus ride. The people we met along the way straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

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HARRIS: You know, judging by the e-mail traffic at cnn.com, a lot of you are still thinking about Jena, Louisiana, and there is a lot to consider. Thousands of people, some in buses, cars and on motorcycles flocking to Jena last week. Some to protest, some on a pilgrimage. What I want you to see is the journey to Jena. We followed a group from Atlanta.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sick and tired of having to stand up for my color.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sign this for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's important, period, for everyone, not just for my family or my race and people. Injustice is injustice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't believe things like this are still happening in our country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From '60 to 2000 (ph). Same deal, doing it all over again. Teaching them how to stand up for justice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Free Jena 6, free Jena 6!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've always wanted to be part of something as important as this is and I am so proud to be here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All we want is justice. Be fair!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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(MUSIC)

HARRIS: That voice. That style. There is no mistaking Diana Krall captivating a jazz-crazy audience at Monterey, California last night. This is the last night of the Monterey Jazz Festival and a milestone. Fifty years. That is how long the Monterey Jazz Festival has showcased performers and their contributions to the music world. It wraps up tonight.

I'm Tony Harris in Atlanta. We have carried a lot this hour and we're not done yet. Coming up at the top of the hour, our SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT presents "America's Killer Diet" with our Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Have a good evening.

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