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Nancy Grace
Virginia Grand Jury Indicts Michael Vick on Dog Charges/Polygamist Leader Jeffs Found Guilty
Aired September 25, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. NFL superstar, multi- millionaire quarterback Michael Vick, the former NFL number one draft pick, just indicted hours ago on additional new charges. A Virginia secret grand jury brings down the hammer on a vicious dog fight scheme stretching the entire Eastern Seaboard, much of it at Vick`s super-secret compound, Richmond, Virginia.
Tonight, we learn a state grand jury slams Vick with felony counts of torturing and killing dogs and promoting dog fights to the death. Vick just pleaded guilty in federal court, admitting to killing pit bulls, bankrolling vicious canine fights after a sweetheart deal with the feds that infuriated court watchers. Well, tonight, Vick finally facing hard jail time for hanging, shooting, body slamming, even electrocuting dogs to death. And tonight, Vick tackled with a multi-million-dollar civil lawsuit.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspended Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick faces new dog fighting charges in an indictment from a Virginia grand jury. He is named on one count of torturing and killing dogs and one of promoting dog fights. Each carries a potential five-year prison term. He`s set to be arraigned on the state charges October 3. The grand jury declined to indict him on eight counts of animal cruelty, which might have led to 40 years in prison. He has pleaded guilty, a plea bargain, to the federal dog fighting conspiracy charges involving a property he owns in Suri County, Virginia, and sentencing date is set for early December.
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GRACE: Also tonight, an FBI 10 Most Wanted with an estimated 100 children and 75 wives, Warren Jeffs, has been in hiding for 18 months, the polygamist sect leader finally put on trial. As we go to air, a Utah jury brings home a verdict on Jeffs, tension and fear so high at the verdict, sharpshooters positioned on cliffs overlooking the courthouse. The victim, a 14-year-old little girl. Jeffs calls it spiritual marriage. Well, the rest of the world calls it statutory rape.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Warren Jeffs, who thousands regard as a prophet to God, a direct pipeline to God, is now a convicted felon. He has been convicted of being an accomplice to rape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Count one (INAUDIBLE) is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the crime charged (INAUDIBLE) the information (INAUDIBLE) count two, that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the crime charged in count two of the information (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffs has been convicted of ordering and performing the marriage of a 14-year-old girl back in 2001 to a 19-year-old man. They ultimately consummated the marriage. Warren Jeffs had no visible reaction in the court. I sat next to the victim. She had tears in her eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This trial has not been about religion or a vendetta. It is simply about child abuse and preventing further abuse. Stand up and fight. I will continue to fight for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. First, after a cheap plea deal with the federal government, NFL superstar Michael Vick finally facing hard jail time.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A grand jury from Suri County, Virginia, has handed down an indictment against Michael Vick, two charges. The first says Vick, along with other people, did torture, inflict injury or pain on an animal by beating, killing or causing that animal to fight another animal. And the second indictment, or the second charge, alleges that Vick, along with others, promoted dog fighting.
Prosecutors from Suri County, Virginia, which is where Vick has admitted to his involvement in a dog fighting operation, also asked the grand jury to consider a third bill of indictment for eight counts of killing a dog, but the jury did not return an indictment on that request. So based on the evidence that investigators presented the grand jury, they must not have believed that there was a basis to indict Vick on killing dogs.
MICHAEL VICK, ATLANTA FALCONS: I offer my deepest apologies to everyone, and I will redeem myself. I have to. So I got a lot of down time, a lot of time to think about my actions and what I`ve done and how to make Michael Vick a better person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Court watchers stunned at the sweetheart deal Michael Vick got from the feds. But it ain`t over yet, people. Now a secret grand jury out of Virginia brings down the hammer on Michael Vick. And finally, he may be facing hard jail time in the electrocution, the beating, the body-slamming, the hanging and shooting of innocent dogs allegedly bred under his supervision to fight to the death.
Out to Sandra Golden, sports talk radio host with 790 AM "The Zone." Tell me about the indictment.
SANDRA GOLDEN, SPORTS TALK RADIO HOST, 790 AM "THE ZONE": Well, I`m surprised that you used the word "came down with the hammer" because everyone is shocked in Suri County. The bill of indictment -- I want to make sure I say this right...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That doesn`t make any sense. Just because people are shocked, that doesn`t mean that these charges don`t carry hard jail time. That`s the point.
GOLDEN: Well, they have -- they came up with 10 different charges. They only came back with two indictments. The other eight they came (ph) to fail charges on. And those two have five years each that they came down on, which are animal abuse and promoting animal fighting. Now, remember, the evidence that Suri County attorney Gerald Poindexter pointed out was these are signed affidavits and confessions that they killed these dogs, and they didn`t move forward with an indictment in the county.
GRACE: Yes, they dragged their feet, there`s no doubt about that, Sandra Golden. They definitely let the feds do all the heavy lifting, and the crimes allegedly generated right there in their own backyard.
To Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." What`s the max he can face on this indictment?
JON LEIBERMAN, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, he`s looking at five years on each of these two counts that he was indicted on, Nancy...
GRACE: That would be 10 years, then?
LEIBERMAN: ... so he`s looking at 10 years total here. And look, the problem with only getting two of these counts to be indicted is, as you know, they`re starting at a much lower level for a possible plea deal. Had they gotten many more indictments, maybe the 10 that the prosecutor was seeking, they`d have a lot more wiggle room to come down, meet in the middle and give him some significant jail time, although this certainly isn`t good news for Michael Vick.
GRACE: Out to prosecutor -- veteran prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction, Holly Hughes. Holly, to me, compared with the feds` conspiracy charges, anything from the state where he`ll do hard jail time on what he allegedly did to innocent dogs is pretty serious.
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, Nancy. And the good thing here is the federal judge is basically structured by federal guidelines. Here the judge has a lot more discretion, so he could give him five years on each charge and run them consecutive, Nancy. So he`s got a lot more discretion. He`s not necessarily bound in by that sliding scale that they do at the federal system to figure out what they`re going to be able to sentence to.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Patty in New York. Hi, Patty. Uh-oh, lost Patty. Let`s try to get her back, Rosie (ph).
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Raymond Giudice. Also joining us out of New York, from the Connecticut jurisdiction, Don Papcsy.
I want to go to you, first of all, Ray Giudice. When you stack sentences, explain the difference between consecutive and concurrent.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. Worst possible for Mr. Vick is he`s sentenced to the maximum of five years on each count. If they are run consecutively, that means a maximum of 10 years. If they are run concurrently, then there`s a maximum of five years, with both sentences running at the same time, i.e. concurrently.
GRACE: And to you, Don Papcsy. I understand what is being said about the more charges, the higher you start with the plea deal. It`s like trying to sell a used car when you`re selling a Mercedes-Benz versus a used VW Golf, OK? You start off at a higher bidding with the Mercedes. End of story. But to me, anything will be an improvement on what the feds did.
DON PAPCSY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think so. I think in this jurisdiction, I think the prosecutor really did this just to save face. I think he saw what the federal government did, and the Virginia prosecutors know this kind of thing goes on in their state.
GRACE: Oh, really? Did they tell you that? Are you speaking for them?
PAPCSY: I just think they do. I think...
GRACE: Oh, you just think that.
PAPCSY: Well, I just think that. I think that they...
GRACE: Why do you think that? Is it just a feeling? Is it something in your spine? Are your toes itching? What`s your feeling that you think they know it`s going on in their state? Because I prosecuted in the South, in inner-city Atlanta, for 10 years as a state prosecutor, more years as a fed, and I knew nothing about any dog fighting scheme.
PAPCSY: Well, because you`ve heard what other professional athletes have come out and said. They`ve come out and said this thing has gone on...
GRACE: But you said prosecutors.
PAPCSY: ... you can see it going on.
GRACE: You said prosecutors.
PAPCSY: Well, I think that...
GRACE: I never knew a thing about professional dog fights.
PAPCSY: You may not have, but I think in this particular case...
GRACE: No, sir, I did not!
PAPCSY: I`m sure you didn`t, Nancy.
GRACE: So why are you saying they knew about it and did nothing?
PAPCSY: I just think that if they wanted to go and find out whether dog fighting happened in their state, they could. And if they -- this was going on, and people knew about it. People come to these events. They`re events. People come there to bet. They come there as entertainment. People know it`s going on. Other professional athletes are coming on the air, saying they know it`s going on. So these prosecutors must know it`s going on, as well. They saw what the feds did, and I think they`re just...
GRACE: So bottom line, you have no reason for saying that other than a feeling.
PAPCSY: Well, and what other professional athletes have said.
GRACE: OK. Out to Bobby K. Brown, the documentary specialist that created "Off the Chain." He infiltrated dog fighting rings and actually went to these things. What do you think about this additional indictment handed down against Vick?
BOBBY K. BROWN, OFFTHECHAIN-MOVIE.COM: Oh, I mean, I feel that the state had to do it because of the federal charges.
GRACE: Why?
BROWN: Well, like the man said before me, you know, the pressure was on them. They couldn`t let Michael Vick walk away from these crimes, these heinous acts that were going on in their state, so they would have to come down on him, too.
GRACE: I want to go back to Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." As opposed to club fed, the type of penitentiary that he would be doing any and all jail time under the federal jurisdiction, what will the state jail be like?
LEIBERMAN: Well, they`d put him in state prison for these charges. These are felony charges. He`s not going to get those perks in club fed.
And Nancy, very important to point out, the federal plea deal was to a conspiracy charge. These -- if these charges stick, these show that Michael Vick had a very active role. These are much more serious than conspiracy. Even though when Michael Vick made that plea bargain, he admitted his role in this, these charges speak much more to that role than the conspiracy charge which he actually pled guilty to, and that`s why these state charges are important.
GRACE: Explain.
LEIBERMAN: Well, because what you`re going to see when the evidence is brought with these state charges is, you have one count of unlawfully torturing and killing dogs and you have one count of promoting dog fights. A very active role, is what the state prosecutor is saying. When Michael Vick pled guilty, he pled guilty to conspiracy. He basically admitted, you know, to funding some of the gambling associated with it. He admitted to advising people that they might want to kill poor-performing dogs and things like that. But these state charges are a much more active role, showing what Michael Vick really did, according to this prosecutor.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Toni in Florida. Hi, Toni.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was just wanting to know, do you think they`re going to run his sentences concurrent or do you think they`re going to be consecutive with the state and federal charges?
GRACE: I`ll tell you, with the state, I think it depends on if he goes to trial. If he takes a plea, it will be a cheaper sentence. If he goes to trial, they`ll likely run it consecutively at the end of trial.
Agree or disagree, Holly?
HUGHES: Absolutely agree, Nancy. The whole reason for a plea bargain is that you are saving the state the cost and expense of a trial. There`s some benefit to that bargain. There is some benefit to standing up, accepting responsibility, "manning up" is what I call it, saying, Hey, I did this. So you know what? I`ll take my time. Make me a good deal. Absolutely 100 percent agree.
GRACE: Out to Yvette in Florida. Hi, Yvette.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just trying to find out -- I know this is something that`s going around, but I just want to know, is this dog fighting -- like, is it illegal throughout the United States, or is it in certain areas, certain states?
GRACE: Yvette, it is illegal in every state in this jurisdiction, to my understanding. To have canines fight to the death is illegal. It is animal cruelty.
We`ll be all back, and we`re taking your calls live. But quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." A guilty verdict in the trial of two lady realtors shot to death, Brunswick, Georgia. Trying the case and winning in the last two hours, veteran prosecutor Eleanor Dixon, Stacey Humphreys facing the Georgia death penalty now for the cold-blooded shootings of a 21-year-old woman, Lori Brown, and a 33-year-old woman, Cynthia Williams, the women working at a gorgeous Cobb County model home when they were forced to strip naked, tortured for bank access codes, then shot point blank. I hope you`re sitting down. Alleged motive, Humphreys wanted money for his monthly car payment.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Virginia grand jury -- this just in -- has indicted disgraced Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick. There are two charges against Vick, one count of killing dogs and one of promoting dog fights. Each animal cruelty charge in Virginia could mean up to five years in prison. Three co-defendants in the case also face state dog fighting charges. Of course, he`s already admitted to bankrolling a dog fighting operation from his home in suburban -- well, it`s in Suri County, Virginia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspended Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick faces new dog fighting charges in an indictment from a Virginia grand jury. He is named on one count of torturing and killing dogs and one of promoting dog fights. Each carries a potential five-year prison term. He`s set to be arraigned on the state charges October 3. The grand jury declined to indict him on eight counts of animal cruelty, which might have led to 40 years in prison. He has pleaded guilty, a plea bargain, to the federal dog fighting conspiracy charges involving a property he owns in Suri County, Virginia, and sentencing date is set for early December.
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GRACE: We just took a call from Yvette in Florida wanting to know if dog fighting was illegal across the country. Take a look at this. This is graphic, everyone, let me warn you. This little dog had his nose bitten off. I can`t really see it with the Chyrons covering it. There we go. This is the kind of thing that happens during these dog fights -- vicious, cruel. And people make thousands and thousands of dollars, sometimes up to $25,000 for a dog fight, while a group of people stand around and watch dogs fight to the death.
I want to go out to a special guest joining us tonight, Chris DeRose, president of Last Chance for Animals. Dog fighting, illegal in every state, correct?
CHRIS DEROSE, PRES., LAST CHANCE FOR ANIMALS: Yes, except for two states. I think it`s Montana and Idaho. What I don`t understand, though, Nancy, is why they have not found any reason to do prosecution for animal cruelty. You see what happened to this dog here. There`s no indictments for animal cruelty. That`s pretty pathetic.
GRACE: That`s very interesting. Sandra Golden, why did they choose not to indict him on that? I guess you have to ask the individual members of the grand jury. Sandra, I think you`re with me, Sandra Golden with 790 AM "The Zone"?
GOLDEN: Hello. I was talking. Yes, apparently, no one was in there to get that information. The reporter that was outside the house said that Gerald Poindexter marched out saying very, very little. The jury with six people, four women, two men -- they were there for three hours and came back and basically threw out those eight counts of cruelty and dog killing.
GRACE: Now, were they specifically brought in for the Vick case?
GOLDEN: I`m not 100 percent sure, but I know that this was the big deal on the docket today. Gerald Poindexter, by the way -- there`s 7,000 people in Suri County. Gerald Poindexter is a part-time prosecutor. This has put him in the forefront of this case, and he wants nothing to do with it. He has been criticized, scrutinized from day one. And there are a lot of holes in this case, as we are going to learn.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Brenda in Illinois. Hi, Brenda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I would like to know how people can help these dogs. I have one at home. He is the most loving animal I`ve had. And I`m watching your clip. Lookit, right now, the dog -- he doesn`t want to fight. Lookit! He`s responding to the petting. It`s outrageous. And this is just one of a million people out here doing this. And anyone who knows a dog like this that`s a family animal would want to -- watching this, would want to participate and end this cruelty. It`s just unfathomable to me.
GRACE: What about it, Chris DeRose?
DEROSE: Absolutely. I totally agree. And as I said, you see what`s going on here. You see these animals. They`re not vicious animals. It`s what these people -- the monsters that are the ones behind the dogs and what they create. These people need to be prosecuted. This case needs to set an example with Michael Vick and his three co-defendants.
GRACE: I think you are so right.
To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist. Dr. Austin, what can you tell us from your studies about people who engage in this type of behavior toward animals?
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Thanks for asking me, Nancy. That`s the point. People who hurt innocent animals -- and these are innocent animals -- there`s a very thin line. They hurt people wantonly. You cannot take a life, whether it`s animal or human, and have it be OK.
GRACE: Everyone, quick break. When we come back: Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs accused of forcing a 14-year-old little girl into a sexual marriage. Jeffs calls it spiritual marriage. The rest of the world calls it statutory rape. Tonight, a verdict on one of the most powerful men in Utah.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Polygamist Warren Jeffs -- he`s the charismatic leader of a Mormon splinter group -- has been convicted of two counts of rape by accessory. Now, what that means is he arranged marriages as the leader of this sect, sometimes polygamist marriages -- in this case not, but he arranged the marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old first cousin. The girl accused him of rape because in that marriage, she says she was forced to perform sex with this man she really didn`t want to marry.
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GRACE: With nearly 100 wives, nearly 100 children, finally, one of the most powerful men in Utah put on trial for, essentially, child molestation.
I want to go out to Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." Explain what happened.
LEIBERMAN: Well, this was a good day for justice, I`ll tell you that, Nancy. But essentially, what prosecutors argued and what Mr. Jeffs is now convicted of is arranging a teen marriage of a 14-year-old with her 19- year-old cousin and then essentially condoning the sex between them, which is rape, statutory rape, in any state. That`s what he was convicted of today, and he`s looking at a lot of time behind bars.
GRACE: You know, I understand that the fear and the tension was so high at that courthouse when it was time to read the verdict that there were sharpshooters positioned on cliffs, looking down at the courthouse. Explain, Jon.
LEIBERMAN: The security was absolutely amazing, Nancy, and here`s why. It`s because you had seven other teenage brides that Warren Jeffs set up with older men. They actually testified on behalf of Warren Jeffs. This sect, this cult believes that this man is their prophet, is their god. That`s why tension was so high. The courtroom was split in half between the members of this FLDS sect and the members of the prosecution and of people who wanted to see this 14-year-old get justice. Luckily, she did get justice.
GRACE: Out to Flora Jessop joining us, a former FLDS member. This is not the Mormon church. This is a splinter group of the Mormon church. Flora, welcome. How is it that one man is allowed to have nearly 100 wives?
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: That`s a really good question. And many of them have been underage wives.
GRACE: How does it happen, though? It seems as if the government there goes along with it and condones it. Neighborhoods go along. Nobody says a word.
JESSOP: You`re right. And they have -- the Utah attorney general and the Arizona attorney general have stated that they won`t prosecute polygamy, even though it`s a felony. And that needs to change. That`s selective prosecution and...
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... versus Warren S. Jeffs, defendant. The jury verdict, case number 061500526. We, the jury, being impaneled in the above entitled case, find as follows. Count one, we find the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the current charge (INAUDIBLE) on the information rape as an accomplice. Count two, that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the crime charged in count two of the information (INAUDIBLE) this 25th day of September 2007.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This trial was regarded as sort of a trial on polygamy itself. It`s practiced along the Utah-Arizona border in remote towns out there, and Warren Jeffs was a very charismatic leader. In fact, he was charged with these crimes, and he went on the run. It took him about 18 months to find him. They found him on a traffic stop and hauled him in. And during this trial, I guess he`s just been very charismatic. He`s been praying. He`s lost weight. But the lawyers did a good job of convincing the jury to convict him on these two counts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And it`s not just polygamy that gave him his power. He had millions and millions of dollars. Apparently, Warren Jeffs running a multimillion-dollar empire there in Utah along the border. I want to go now to CNN national correspondent in court today, joining us from the courthouse, Gary Tuchman.
Gary, tell me what happened in court.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, in court, there was a lot of tension when the announcement was made that there was a verdict. It wasn`t at all clear what that verdict would be. And Warren Jeffs has been very quiet during this entire trial, making absolutely no faces. He has about 15 to 20 followers who`ve been inside this courthouse behind me every day. And when the jury came in, the judge said, "Do you have the verdict?" They said yes. They handed the paper to the clerk. And when the clerk read "guilty," I immediately swiveled my head in both directions to see Jeffs, to see his followers, absolutely no reaction from either of them.
Everyone was told, "We don`t want any verbal reactions. You`ll be kicked out of the court." But there were no reactions whatsoever. Sharp shooters on the buildings near the courthouse, sharp shooters on the cliffs around us. They were there in case there was violence. You remember David Koresh. No one knows what can happen with very religious, fervently religious people. They believe this man is a direct pipeline to God, his followers. No one knew what would happen, but so far, Nancy, all is quiet.
GRACE: You know, I just don`t understand how one guy can get away with nearly 100 wives, nearly 100 children, and now we`ve got a 14-year-old girl, according to prosecutors and the jury, he essentially forced to have sex with a nearly 20-year-old man. And another thing, Gary Tuchman! Why wasn`t the husband charged? He`s the one that had sex with a minor, Gary.
TUCHMAN: Well, we will tell you, that was one of the questions we asked jurors, because we got to talk to them. Were you troubled at all by the fact that this man in this alleged rape that occurred, if Warren Jeffs is the accomplice to rape, what about the alleged rapist? Were you concerned that he wasn`t charged? And they said, "We just had to deal with Warren Jeffs. We left that out of our minds." But what we should tell you, Nancy, is that sources have told us that they do plan to arrest this man, who is now 26 years old, for a charge. They`re not saying yet if it would be rape, the charge. It`s not very clear. But they say they will be arresting him.
GRACE: Another thing, Gary -- and I`ve been studying the young man`s testimony. He said he had -- he had the gall, the gall to say -- and he testified, it`s my understanding, for the defense, for Warren Jeffs -- he had the gall to say that the little girl came on to him and that that`s how they consummated the marriage. But yet he also talked on the stand, and in general, about how he felt so rejected by her, because after this "marriage," she would go and hide -- hide -- in her mother`s bedroom, not wanting to succumb to his advances. So, you know, you can`t have your cake and eat it, too. You can`t have it both ways, Gary Tuchman. So what was his final testimony?
TUCHMAN: Well, I will tell you that he came off a lot like Forrest Gump. He`s not a worldly man. He doesn`t seem particularly intelligent. He wasn`t very glib. He couldn`t communicate very well. He couldn`t talk very loud.
GRACE: Gary, Gary, Gary?
TUCHMAN: Can you hear me, Nancy?
GRACE: You don`t have to be Einstein to be a child molester, OK? I think we can both -- you and I have covered enough cases together to know that. OK, so he`s not worldly. So what was the gist of his testimony?
TUCHMAN: Well, that`s the point I`m trying to make, is that there were lot of people on the prosecution side who were fearful that the jury would believe he wasn`t capable of lying because he sounded like Forrest Gump and sounded like he didn`t know how to lie. But, indeed, when we talked to the jury today after the verdict, they said they didn`t believe him. They said his timeline kept changing. They didn`t believe he was credible. They believed her, and that`s what helped lead them to the guilty verdict.
It`s really important, Nancy, to mention this case involved this one 14-year-old victim, but Warren Jeffs was on the FBI 10 most wanted list because he`s accused of doing this to many children under the age of 18. They think he`s a serial child assaulter, but these girls are afraid to come forward.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here is Wall being fitted for her wedding dress, a reminder to others how young she was. Today she`s 21, remarried, and a mother of two. She`s legally changed her name and is in a witness protection program. Wall met Jeffs when she was a little girl attending Alta Academy outside Salt Lake City where Jeffs was headmaster. Over the years, Wall endured many of Jeff`s sermons, like this one.
WARREN JEFFS, SECT LEADER: Do you give yourself to him? That means in full obedience. You are literally taken from the father`s home, and given to that man, and you belong to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Warren Jeffs, one of the most powerful men in Utah, the ruler of a multimillion-dollar empire and polygamist, the spiritual leader of a cult splinter group off the church of Latter-Day Saints, the Mormons, in court today. Tensions so high at the courthouse sharp shooters positioned on cliffs on the top of buildings surrounding the courthouse as that verdict was read.
Want to go out to the lines. Gloria in California. Hi, Gloria.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering, we were watching Court TV this morning waiting for the verdict to come in, and we kept hearing about how the jurors consisted of four women and four men. Aren`t all jurors 12?
GRACE: No, they are not. In different jurisdictions there are different numbers of jurors. Sometimes there can even be six. I always had a jury of 12. To Gary Tuchman, tell me about the jury selection process there.
TUCHMAN: Right, there were actually five men and three women on this jury. They do these kinds of cases with eight jurors, but they had four alternates, so they had a total of 12 people listening to the entire case. They excused four of the people after the testimony was over, told the four people stay tight, because we may have to bring you back if there`s a problem with a juror. And indeed, we learned this morning that one of the jurors was kicked off the panel. We still don`t know why. So one of the four alternates was brought in. Ultimately five men, three women heard the case, and of course it had to be unanimous.
GRACE: To Donald Schweitzer, former detective, Santa Ana Police Department, Donald, how do you go about proving a case when none of the victims will come forward? We got one victim in this case to come forward out of God knows how many.
DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE: Nancy, I think there`s two things that the police are going to do in the future. One is they`re going to rely on the experts, people that have been part of these cults and have escaped, they`re going to rely on their expertise in trying to penetrate these groups and contact them.
The second thing that they`re going to do is they are going to rely on the fact that Mr. Jeffs is no longer a threat to that community, that those potential victims out there may feel safe to come forward. And let`s face it. He has destroyed so many lives that there`s got to be lots and lots of people out there that are now going to be willing to come forward against him and his male followers.
GRACE: Out to Alison Arngrim. You all know Alison probably as Nelly, Nelly also on "Little House on the Prairie." What you may not know about her is that she is a child molestation victim, an adult child molestation victim, and is with the National Association to Protect Children. You know, Alison, I was listening to something the defense said. And they said that this is spiritual marriage dressed up as rape. And to me, they had it bass-ackwards. It`s rape, child molestation dressed up as some kind of a funky spiritual marriage.
ALISON ARNGRIM, MOLESTATION VICTIM: The idea that tormenting a 14- year-old girl to the point that she tried to kill herself doesn`t count as force is just insane. This girl is not able to consent. She did not want to be there. This girl was raped. And I`m so pleased that these people saw -- this jury saw through this con game and these lies.
What Jeffs has been doing is absolutely grotesque. And I`m so pleased that we now have this accomplice to rape. I mean, every time you have child molestation, you constantly have someone who`s giving an assist. I mean, it`s no better than the people who were in the trailer with the killer of Jessica Lunsford who helped him evade capture. It`s disgusting, and I`m really pleased to see somebody finally saw through this and did something.
GRACE: You know, Alison, what`s so disturbing to me is not just the fact of child molestation, but it seems as if the government there, the neighbors, the neighborhood, the fellow church members, go along with a 14- year-old little girl who`s hiding up in her mother`s bedroom, not wanting to go down and have sex with an adult male, and they let it happen, every day.
ARNGRIM: This stuff doesn`t happen in a vacuum. It doesn`t happen in a vacuum, and there are too many people who believe this stuff. And, unfortunately, people have been using religion to cover criminal activity since door-to-door Bible salesmen. It`s a scam.
GRACE: Out to Marcel in Kansas. Hi, Marcel.
CALLER: Hello, love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: Thank you. Will the prosecutors be charging anybody else who might be involved, such as associates or maybe her family members?
GRACE: What about it, Gary Tuchman? Any more indictments down the pike?
TUCHMAN: Well, that`s something that prosecutors say they want to keep close to their sleeve right now. It`s a possibility. But they do plan, according to sources, to charge this man who was the husband with this 14-year-old girl. That is definitely a plan. Also, we should point out though the state of Arizona, because this community is on a state border, Arizona also plans on charging Warren Jeffs. So he`ll go to trial in Arizona, too.
GRACE: To Lisa in South Carolina. Hi, Lisa.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I just want you to know that me and my sister-in- law both enjoy your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: My question is, just how popular do you think polygamy is in the United States?
GRACE: Well, across the rest of the country, I don`t think it`s very popular at all. However, in that particular region, I think it`s highly popular. And, again, I want to disassociate this group, the FLDS, is a splinter group from the Mormons, from the Mormons who have disavowed polygamy many, many years ago.
Out to Jon Lieberman, how rampant is it?
JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, let me tell you what. Warren Jeffs was able to stay on the run for a year-and-a- half and stay at safe houses because of all of these followers of his. So in this group at least, it`s very rampant. I mean, this guy lived on power, control and manipulation. And had it not been for that traffic stop outside of Vegas, we may not have Jeffs in custody right now. That`s how much people were protecting him `and that`s how much money he had to stay on the run, as well.
GRACE: This particular sect has an estimated 10,000 members that we know of. And, remember, many of them remain secret. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Holly Hughes, Ray Giudice, Dan Papcsy, to you, Ray Giudice. Catch this, the range of sentencing is five years to life. That`s quite a range.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That is unusual under anything that sounds in a sexual assault, rape case. Can I just address something quickly about why they didn`t indict the husband? I think it`s a brilliant prosecution. It did not allow the defense to have two co-defendants pointing the finger at each other confusing the jury. This prosecutor, tenacious and brilliant, got a targeted conviction against Jeffs. They got the husband under oath in court, and they can roll him up, and indict him, and charge him any time they want. I think it was brilliant.
GRACE: Ray Giudice, you are absolutely correct.
GIUDICE: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: And what is so -- I know, scary. And what is so unusual, Don Papcsy, is this guy who admits on the stand to having sex with a 14-year- old girl, he calls it "having sex." I call it "child molestation." Then he went on to say it was all her fault because she came onto him. Yeah, I`ve heard that about 2 million times before in court. But he didn`t have any kind of immunity, and he testified for the defense, Dan. Don, I`m sorry, Don Papcsy.
DON PAPCSY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Where was his lawyer? That`s what I want to know. I want to know where this guy`s lawyer was that didn`t tell him to just take the Fifth and not testify at all because it would probably incriminate himself. I don`t know.
GRACE: To Holly Hughes, you know, sometimes, Holly -- and I know you`ve seen this in court -- people are so devoted, for instance, to this Warren Jeffs, this sect leader, do you think that had anything to do with this guy testifying?
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: That`s exactly right, Nancy. And, sadly, we see it in a lot of child molestation cases, where you have a child who`s molested, and the mother will actually take the side of the live-in boyfriend or the husband and say, "Well, my child is a liar. That`s not really what happened," because they have some type of sick devotion to this man.
And I just want to point this out. If this man is such a prophet and such a man of God, why did he run for two years? If he thought he was perfectly justified in what he did, why was he hiding out? Why didn`t he march himself right down to the courthouse, say, "I am protected, I`m God`s prophet, I didn`t do anything wrong, come on, let`s go to trial"?
GRACE: To Dr. Lesley Austin, can Jeffs really believe he`s a prophet of God?
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, if he`s extremely narcissistic and was raised that way, sure, I think he knows he`s not a prophet of God. I think he really likes the power that he has through religion. Religion frightens people when they think that their salvation is at stake. I`m sure they`ll follow him.
GRACE: But to dispense the idea that you are a prophet of God, I just wonder if he actually believes that.
We`re taking your calls live. But very quickly, "CNN Heroes."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Explain to me everything you want to explain.
MATIN MAULAWIZADA, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: Afghanistan offered me a lot, and I wanted to bring a little something back. It`s a tiny project, but I wanted to really make sure to bring something. Afghan women have survived years of war, years of suppression. Still they do, and they prevail. So to me the strength of Afghan women are just remarkable, and I wanted to work with them.
Widows, in particular, rely on the mercy of their families to live and they become servants to them. I wanted to kind of change that, one person at a time, if I could. My entire point was to make sure that widows and women are able to proudly work and be proud of their work and work outside their house and provide wealth for their families.
It`s just amazing. It sells itself, really. They read and write equivalent of a fourth-grader now. Mentally, they`re prepared to go to work. They know how to take measurements; they know how to write measurements. Once they learn enough, they will basically be businesswomen.
And look at the embroidery on this. I`m hoping that I will send them to courses that they can actually manage a business, grow a business. My whole dream is for them to basically have the confidence to see beautiful objects that they`re making and know that people are enjoying and appreciating them. They`re doing the work, and all I`m offering is basically an opportunity for them to show what they have.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: One of the most powerful men in Utah on trial, finally a verdict. I want to go to Flora Jessop, a former FLDS member. Flora, what was it like being there in that sect?
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: It was a nightmare. It was like living in Hell. You have no choice. You must submit to the sexual abuse. When I tried to get help to stop the sexual abuse from my father, I was locked up for three years, and they tried to "beat Satan out of me" for standing up against God`s commandments.
GRACE: To Sheila in South Carolina. Hi, Sheila.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My mom and I love your show.
GRACE: You know, Sheila, thank you. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: My question to you is, where is social services to protect these children in that state?
GRACE: Oh, oh, Sheila -- Gary, did we ever hear a peep out of social services?
TUCHMAN: That`s a great question, because that`s something we`ve been wondering about in the months we`ve been here. There is one investigator who works in that town of Colorado City, Arizona, Hilldale, Utah, the two split towns on the border. His name is Gary Engels. He`s been wondering that for so long, get more and more people involved. Now that this verdict has come, he`s hoping more people from Utah, more people from Arizona, from the social services, come into that town and see what`s going on. But it`s very obvious. There`s no question about it. There are an awful lot of problems there.
GRACE: Gary, for the sake of those children, I pray that you`re right.
Let`s stop and remember Army Private Randol Shelton, 22, Schiller Park, Illinois, killed, Iraq. On a second tour, he dreamed of college and opening a restaurant. Loved the Chicago Bears, spending time with family, phoned home often, especially to grandmother Carol. Leaves behind grieving parents, Bryan and Darlene, sister, Amanda, brother, Bryan. Randol Shelton, American hero.
Thank to our guests, but especially to you for inviting us into your homes. And happy birthday to one of the real stars on our show, Ben! Happy birthday, dear.
Everyone, see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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