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Athlete Marion Jones Admitting Steroid Use; Gov. Bill Richardson Talks About His Run For President; Manhunt in Philadelphia; Topps Meats Closing Down

Aired October 05, 2007 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Coming clean on "the clear", Olympic track star Marion Jones now says she did cross the line on steroid use before her dazzling performance in Sydney; years of denials come crashing down this afternoon in federal court.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: And this hour, right here in the NEWSROOM, a Democrat who is running on his resume. Bill Richardson says he is far and away the most qualified candidate for president, but so far it's been an uphill run.

Good afternoon. I'm Betty Nguyen in today for Kyra Phillips at CNN World Headquarters right here in Atlanta.

LEMON: And I'm Don Lemon. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

A court appearance today in New York could rewrite sports history. Olympic gold medalist Marion Jones is expected to plead guilty to lying about steroid use; her freedom, her reputation, her Olympic medals all in jeopardy. Let's go to Allan Chernoff for the latest. He joins us now from White Plains, New York -- hi, Allan.

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don.

I'm sure you remember watching those Sydney Olympics of 2000, just an astounding performance by Marion Jones, racing down winning five medals. It seemed super human and indeed now we learn that apparently it was. The performance apparently enhanced by steroids.

We understand from federal authorities that Marion Jones later this afternoon will plead guilty to two counts, one count of lying to investigators about drug use, specifically steroids, a steroid known as "the clear", and a second count unrelated, lying about involvement in a check fraud case. She could possibly be facing prison time under this plea deal that we'll be having here.

In the past, Marion Jones has denied using steroids.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARION JONES, JUNE 16, 2004: I have never ever used performance enhancing drugs and that I have accomplished what I have accomplished because of my God given abilities and hard work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: Jones will become the first athlete convicted as a result of those investigations into the Balco Laboratory in the San Francisco Bay area. Now of course you have seen so many reports about Jason Giambi, the New York Yankee ball player, reportedly saying to a grand jury that he indeed did use steroids, and also Barry Bonds, the home run king of San Francisco Giants, also reportedly giving grand jury testimony that he also admitted to using steroids from that Balco Laboratory.

But this of course would be the first athlete actually convicted from that whole investigation. Five men connected with Balco have already been convicted, and some of them have served prison time. Barry Bonds had said that he received the steroids from his training coach who told him reportedly that it was flaxseed oil. Marion Jones reportedly had a similar story, that her coach, Trevor Graham, also giving the substance to her and reportedly saying that this was flaxseed oil. Mr. Graham has pled not guilty to three counts of lying to investigators and he is scheduled for trial next month.

Back to you in the studio.

LEMON: Allan Chernoff, thank you so much for that report.

Jones' admission could cost her plenty. Her reputation, a few months freedom, and the three gold and two bronze medals she won at the 2000 Sydney Olympics. IOC rules provide for an eight-year statute of limitations. Medals can be revoked, results avoided as far as eight years back. A member of the International Olympic Committee told "The New York Times" Jones' medals will be taken away.

But a member of the U.S. Olympic Committee expressed a more wait- and-see attitude about the whole situation. We're going to dig deeper on this story today in the NEWSROOM because it goes beyond the behavior of a lone track star.

Coming up, our Dr. Sanjay Gupta sheds light on "the clear", "the clear", it's called. It is a legal substance we keep hearing about. Also we talk with an investigator, investigative reporter from "Sports Illustrated" who has broken stories about these drugs for years, and of course we're outside that New York federal court where we're anticipating Marion Jones will appear for a hearing at 4:00 p.m. Eastern -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Well, those former Duke lacrosse players wrongly accused of rape are now making a federal case their ordeal. They are suing the disgraced and disbarred prosecutor Mike Nifong, the city of Durham, North Carolina, and police who handled that investigation. Their suit calls the case against Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and Dave Evans, quote, "one of the most chilling episodes of premeditated police prosecutorial and scientific misconduct in modern American history."

The suit seeks unspecified damages and changes in the way Durham police investigate criminal cases. Now you will recall the three young men were accused of raping a stripper at a team party. Well those charges were eventually dropped and North Carolina's attorney general declared the three innocent victims of quote, "a tragic rush to accuse."

LEMON: A killer caught on tape, day two of an all-out manhunt in Philadelphia. This man is wanted in the shooting deaths of two armored car security guards who he robbed outside an ATM at a mall.

The latest developments in a brazen crime from CNN's Jim Acosta, he's in Philadelphia. Jim, I can only imagine the mood in that city today.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right, Don. The mood in this city is very tense. People are on edge. And there is pressure on this police department. The crime in this city has been sky high in recent years and this high profile case has just added more urgency to solving what is a very brazen crime.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA (voice-over): Draped in white sheets the bodies of the two slain security guards lay just feet from their bullet riddled armored carrier. The motive was money no matter what.

COMM. SYLVESTER JOHNSON, PHILADELPHIA POLICE DEPT.: Obviously whatever he did today, he intended on assassinating people and he did.

ACOSTA: These are the victims; both retired Philadelphia police officers, each with more than 20 years on the force. And this is the killer, opening fire on his victims before calmly looking for his bounty. The ambush was brazen and it happened in broad daylight.

At about 8:00 a.m., the armored car rolled up to the Wachovia Bank next to a mall right in the middle of morning rush hour. While one guard remained inside the van, his two colleagues left to collect the cash out of this ATM. That's when the gunman struck. A security camera captures the moment he pulled the trigger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unidentified black male comes up around the side of him on the left-hand side, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) shooting the male and fatally wounding him, fatally killing him actually. He then goes around the pole, shoots the other guard. He is also fatally wounded.

ACOSTA: The gunman wasn't finished. He shot at the armored car, shattering the glass and wounding the third guard. He left with an unknown amount of cash and a black Acura with tinted windows.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a black male wearing a yellow baseball cap, black -- a logo on it, black short sleeve shirt, blue jeans, white sneakers, black gloves, armed with a black handgun.

ACOSTA: Authorities are asking for help in finding the suspect, hoping someone will recognize him in the surveillance pictures and bring to justice a man who executed two people who were just doing their jobs.

Jim Acosta, CNN, Philadelphia. (END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And earlier this morning, we chatted with Philadelphia's police commissioner, Sylvester Johnson, as he arrived here at police headquarters. He basically said they are still asking for the public's help in this case, that there are still very few new leads to work on at this point, and part of the problem just might be that security camera; those images that were captured from that camera just don't show a very good image of the killer's face.

And so, at this point they are basically working off of what he was wearing and the getaway car at this point, which is not a whole lot -- Don.

LEMON: Yeah and Jim, sadly Philadelphia is dealing with a soaring crime rate, one of the highest homicide rates in the country.

ACOSTA: That's right. Yeah, the highest crime rate among all of America's top 10 cities last year, and may be on pace to do that again this year. They are under tremendous pressure to solve this case, considering the fact that the two security guards who were gunned down were both former -- retired Philadelphia police officers. So, that is only putting on more pressure on this department.

LEMON: Jim Acosta in front of Philadelphia Police Headquarters, we appreciate your report.

NGUYEN: A standoff in Alexandria, Louisiana comes to a violent end. Early this morning police blasted their way into the law office where a gunman was holed up. Shots were exchanged and the suspect was killed. He is identified as a retired city maintenance worker. Authorities say he shot five people as the standoff began, killing two of them, a lawyer's son and a postal worker delivering mail. He refused to talk to mediators and even fired shots at a robot police sent in to the building.

LEMON: And Betty, this is a very, very disturbing story to report, suicide at the City Council. A Clarksville, Tennessee man shot himself in the head after lawmakers refused to rezone his property. When the council voted against him Ronald "Bo" Ward walked up and declared quote, "you all have put me under". Then he pulled the trigger. Ward was hoping to increase his property value so he could get a loan to pay for his expanding barber shop.

NGUYEN: Well there's a lot to be known about Blackwater, a lot of eyes on this case and other private U.S. companies in fact, the government contracts in Iraq. CNN's State Department correspondent Zain Verjee joins us now from Washington. This is a case that we're following very closely. What is the latest, Zain?

ZAIN VERJEE, STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Betty.

Well, the State Department's moved quickly here, and initial review of overall security practices in Iraq is out. Now, based on the report, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is ordering some pretty major changes that will hold its private guards more accountable. Now, what's been ordered is this.

State Department employees, diplomatic security agents, will be on board each Blackwater contractor convoy protecting U.S. diplomats, kind of like a chaperone almost. Cameras are also going to be installed inside the vehicle. You're going to have radio transmissions also recorded. Then basically what that does is really to keep an electronic track of any incident that happens, so it's easier to review if they need to do it. The last thing that has been recommended is that convoys have to keep closer contact with U.S. military units.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack had this to say a short while ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN MCCORMACK, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Part of a good management system is that you have very clear sets of rules and procedures in place. Another part to that is to make sure that they are being implemented properly, that you have a good review mechanism and that if people stray outside the rules and regulations as they're stated, there's accountability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERJEE: Now, fuller review, Betty, is going to happen down the road.

NGUYEN: All right. Well speaking of these reviews and investigations what other investigations are underway right now aside from Blackwater?

VERJEE: Well the September 16th shootout in Iraq that involved Blackwater agents really was the jumping off point for a lot of investigations and reviews. The State Department really came under fire by lawmakers accusing it of losing control of its private guards and having just poor oversight generally.

So, in terms of investigations, there's also an FBI investigation, it's taking the lead on the September 16th incident. There's also a joint Iraq/U.S. commission about the role of contractors.

NGUYEN: All right, CNN's Zain Verjee joining us live from Washington. Zain, as always we thank you.

LEMON: Developing story to tell you about, a huge meat recall. T.J. Holmes is working the details for us. What do you have, sir?

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, not so much on the recall now, but what the recall has led to which is the closing of this company. Topps Meats is closing its doors, shutting down after one of the biggest recalls in this country. Twenty-two million pounds of frozen hamburger patties recalled because of E. coli. Those patties were linked to illnesses of at least 30 people in eight states, no one dying from this, but still, 22 million pounds had to be recalled and now Topps saying it just cannot stay afloat with a recall this large and it's closing its doors.

This comes less than a week after this recall was announced. This company has been around for some 67 years in Elizabeth, New Jersey. But this one hit, this one major hit was too much for it to sustain. It is facing at least three lawsuits right now. And just all kinds of issues surrounding this 22 million pounds of beef recalled. And they just said they just can't stay afloat.

Right now we know that the closing will cost at least 87 workers their jobs, some are going to remain to help federal inspectors who are looking for the source of that contamination, not exactly narrowed that down just yet. But at least 87 people are going to be out of a job on this thing, so Don, less than a week really after we just got the announcement of the recall. The company saying this is just going to be too much of a financial hit. We cannot sustain ourselves. We cannot stay afloat and Topps Meat closing down.

LEMON: What did you say, it's 22 million...

HOLMES: Twenty-two, 21.7 million was the number they gave, but yeah, right at 22 million...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You can certainly understand they're hurting there. OK, T.J., thank you. If you get more info, we'll check back.

HOLMES: Sure thing, Don.

NGUYEN: Well an Olympic star in a drug scandal. Marion Jones reportedly admits to using a banned steroid that you may have never heard of. Ahead in the NEWSROOM, Dr. Sanjay Gupta tells us all about "the clear".

LEMON: He's an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq. New Mexico Governor and Democratic presidential hopeful Bill Richardson will join us to talk about the race and the issues that are defining him.

NGUYEN: Plus, a Minnesota woman is in big trouble after a jury found that she shared copyrighted music online, well it turns out it wasn't free after all.

You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: It is 17 past the hour. Here are three of the stories that we're working on in the CNN NEWSROOM. The potential fall of an Olympic heroine, Marion Jones is expected to admit in a federal court that she lied about steroids. "The Washington Post" reports Jones wrote a letter to her friends and family telling them she'd make the plea and apologizing. Her career and her medals could be in serious jeopardy. We'll continue to follow that.

Also, Topps Meat Company is shutting down. This is the company that recalled almost 22 million pounds of ground beef over last week over E.coli fears. The company says the financial impact of the recall is just too great.

And President Bush is defending his administration's treatment of terror suspects. Mr. Bush says the U.S. does not condone torture. This after a "New York Times" report on a secret Justice Department memo that basically endorses the harshest interrogation techniques.

LEMON: The Marion Jones story surprised a lot of people. She had dodged the allegations of steroid use for years. In fact, she denied them. She cleaned up at the 2000 Olympics in Sydney and this is coming as a shock to a lot of people, particularly the president of the United States, the country that she made so proud of her efforts, the president's spokesperson spoke about what the president has to say about this just moments ago -- Dana Perino.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA PERINO, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What the president is really concerned about is that any professional athlete or any athlete or any one who aspires to be a professional athlete thinks that they have to use performance enhancing drugs in order to achieve their goals. And so he was sad about the news and hopes that parents can talk to their children about making sure that as they grow up that they can avoid any type of steroid use because they can really get by on their own skill and talent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And that drug is at the center of Marion Jones' case is called THG, or "the clear". It's a powerful anabolic steroid that wasn't even detectible until 2003. What does it do? Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta breaks it down for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's called THG as you know. It stands for tetrahydrogestrinone. It is a designer steroid which basically means you take a steroid such as testosterone and you add a hydrogen molecule to make it a little bit different and a little bit harder to detect. Now a of couple things about THG and another steroid known as Andro is they used to be legal up until a few years ago. You could actually buy them in health food stores, and a lot of people, a lot of athletes actually took it on a regular basis.

But they have become illegal now. And what we hear now most recently is that they are often given with flaxseed oil either to cover it or to transport it in a different way, unsure, but a lot of times that people are told they are taking flaxseed oil when in fact they are given this cream or this "clear", as it's called, all of it known as THG. Now when you have these designer steroids, the whole idea of adding these hydrogen molecules it still gets broken down into basic testosterone into your body.

So that's the ultimate goal of these substances no matter how designer it is or no matter how many molecules they add to it is to give yourself an anabolic steroid. And we know those can have some significant effects to the inside of your body. They can cause liver tumors. They can raise your bad cholesterol. They can lower your good cholesterol. They can have effects on your psyche, cause aggressive behavior and they have been known to actually be linked to heart disease down the line as well.

The exact effects on someone in the long term are hard to trace because so many of these people have not come forward and say they are taking this particular substance, but again all of this basically comes back down to the idea that someone was taking testosterone to try and improve physical prowess and athletic performance. There will be many more details in this story as they come forward. We'll bring them to you.

Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: All right. In the meantime, downloaders, pay attention because there's a decision in the first ever individual music file sharing case and it did not go well for the defendant. We have those details coming up in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: All right, the recording industry has scored a major victory against those it says are downloading music illegally. Susan Lisovicz is at the New York Stock Exchange to tell us what the impact will be for the industry and for those music lovers.

Susan, we've been talking about this. It has really perked our interest because some people thought they were downloading for free while others, well, they did a little bit more.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, if you thought that you could download for free, listen up because this could affect you and the threat of litigation is something that I think is very real indeed. A federal jury says a Minnesota woman is liable for infringing on copyright laws and ordered her to pay $220,000 in fines. This is the first of these file sharing cases to go to trial. And the industry watchers believe it will prompt the industry to file even more suits. The woman denies responsibility.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMMIE THOMAS, LOST MUSIC DOWNLOADING SUIT: I didn't do this. I did not illegally download music. I did not illegally share music with anybody over any peer-to-peer network and I wasn't going to allow the RIAA or anyone else to bully me into paying them for something I didn't do.

RICHARD GABRIEL, MUSIC INDUSTRY LAWYER: This does send a message, I hope, that downloading and distributing our copyrighted recordings is not OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LISOVICZ: The music industry has settled many of these cases out of court with fines. It says this woman did more than just download music. She made her collection available to all of cyberspace and in effect becoming a distributor of music -- Betty.

NGUYEN: OK, so if that's how it happens, how anybody can get a hold of this stuff for free, what is next for the industry? What are they going to do?

LISOVICZ: Well, you know, the music industry already likes litigation because it believed it was working, you know, when you get these settlements. But it probably isn't feasible for the industry obviously to catch everyone who distributes music. It hopes cases like this will scare enough people into compliance. The industry says it's most concerned with people who make their music libraries available to anyone on the Internet.

Copying a song for a friend, while illegal, isn't something they are going after, you know, nickels and dimes stuff. Making a second copy of the song for your own use is probably OK, too. It's the large stuff, like the whole archive of music. And that's the case in point that we were talking about.

NGUYEN: Yeah, they're going after the big fish.

LISOVICZ: That's right. And they're trying to make an example of it and this case was obviously a huge victory for the recording industry.

Turning to Wall Street, well we're hitting some high notes here I'll tell you that. Stocks are rallying on a strong jobs report. One hundred ten thousand new jobs were created in September. The unemployment rate still edged a bit higher to 4.7 percent but it was the August report that really surprised a lot of folks, it showed a loss of 4,000 initially leaving many people to believe the housing woes were spreading to the broader economy, but in this report it was revised to show nearly 90,000 jobs were created in August.

And well, you can see investors' reaction here. The Dow right now up 97 points, about two-thirds of a percent above 14,000, the NASDAQ composite is up about one and a half percent. In the next hour, not yet Halloween but another hot Christmas item will be difficult to find at local stores. I'll tell you about parents' latest holiday headache in the next hour.

NGUYEN: Oh I can't wait. You know, a lot of that Christmas stuff is already out in the stores. It's not even Halloween yet, Susan.

LISOVICZ: I know it.

NGUYEN: All right. I'll get my list ready. Thank you.

LEMON: I wonder is it a video game?

NGUYEN: I don't know. A toy?

LISOVICZ: Going to have to wait, Don. LEMON: Oh, come on...

(CROSSTALK)

NGUYEN: ... a hint.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I usually get it.

LISOVICZ: You guessed it yesterday.

LEMON: I did. Give me a hint.

NGUYEN: What letter does it start with? No, I'm kidding.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK...

(CROSSTALK)

LISOVICZ: You have to wait.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Susan.

NGUYEN: Yes. Thank you.

LISOVICZ: You're welcome.

LEMON: He is running for president of the United States, but a new development in his home state could have new Mexico Governor Bill Richardson eyeing another race. We'll ask him about that when he joins us live straight ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon, live at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.

NGUYEN: Yes, good afternoon, everybody. I'm Betty Nguyen, in for Kyra Phillips. And Governor Bill Richardson is in the House. We're going to give you a bit of the 2008 presidential campaign as it comes to our door right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

NGUYEN: First, though, sports history could be rewritten as of today. A little later this afternoon Olympic gold medalist Marion Jones is expected to plead guilty to lying about steroid use. Now for years Jones has denied using performance-enhancing drugs, but "The Washington Post" has printed a letter the track superstar and darling of the 2000 Olympics reportedly wrote to friends and family telling them she will make the plea and apologize. Fans and athletes, well, they're shocked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL LEWIS, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: See, I was surprised because it's very rare that people that get away with it ultimately admit it. But what's great about this is that it shows what -- that this is America's problem and that between government and the sport and you saw it in all the powers that be came together and stayed on it until they found out and she had to admit it finally.

This climate of drug taking, they say it's -- the onus is on the athlete. So that is something that a lot of people do, unfortunately, because coaches have a strong influence on some of them.

But the bottom line, you're not allowed to do it. I think that really hits to a broader perspective, broader problem, is that we go after the athlete, but not after the coaches, because many of them do that. They'll give the athletes something or have access to it and they should have the same penalties some way as the athletes do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Well, Jones reportedly says her trainer told her the drug was flaxseed oil, not a powerful anabolic steroid known as the clear. Her admissions could cost her several months in prison, and her Olympic gold and bronze medals. And the steroid at the center of the Marion Jones case is the clear. It's a liquid taken in drops under the tongue. And it wasn't even detectable until 2003. More than a dozen track and field athletes have gotten in trouble for using it.

"The San Francisco Chronicle" reports that the clear has been linked to baseball players Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield and Barry Bonds. Giambi telling a grand jury that he pretty much knew he was taking a steroid. Sheffield saying, he wasn't told it was a steroid. And the "Chronicle" says Bonds claimed he took something his trainer said was flaxseed oil. Jones claims her former coach also told her the clear was flaxseed oil.

LEMON: And, Betty, the clear is tied to Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative, or BALCO. It's been at the center of the steroids scandal and a federal probe for years. That probe has brought five convictions so far. BALCO's founder, Victor Conte, pleaded guilty to conspiracy and money laundering in 2005. He accused Jones of using performance-enhancing drugs, even said he watched her inject it herself. She sued him three years ago, accusing him of trying to destroy her career and her reputation.

And of course we have been getting hundreds of e-mails on this story, and NEWSROOM viewers feel passionately about Marion Jones and steroids.

Here is one from Kevin from Pennsylvania. He sees this as an issue that affects kids, along with many other reasons. "This is just part of the reason why youth of today have no heroes, no one to look up to, at least no one of sincerity and dignity and truthfulness."

NGUYEN: This one is really interesting. Sara, from Marshall, Texas says, "Honestly, I think she should have kept her mouth shut. She had so many young women who looked up to her and wanted to be like her, but as of today she has let them down."

LEMON: But Doreene from Los Angeles faults someone else. She says, "I believe Marion was a victim of her coach's greed for success, and now she may have to go to jail for it. It is not fair."

Moving on now, surveillance video showing the Phoenix airport arrest of a woman who died while in custody has been released by police.

CNN's Joe Johns has the tale of the tape.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A few but not all of the last moments of Carol Ann Gotbaum's life preserved in pictures.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Earlier in the video...

JOHNS: Three camera angles caught the action but there's no audio. Still, it's clear the woman is making a scene.

In a moment, one camera shows she's on the floor, taken down and handcuffed. Two other cameras show her being taken away, apparently stiff-legged.

Police say they found no violations of policy or procedures so far and the investigation is still ongoing. Whatever the video shows, there are things it clearly doesn't, like what happened in a holding cell when she was placed handcuffed and shackled to a bench. She was later discovered and pronounced dead after attempts to revive her failed. Police say she was left there alone for between six to eight minutes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They heard her yelling and screaming the whole time, so and that was within earshot of the officers that were there. We do not have cameras inside of holding cells. We're prohibited to do that by policy.

JOHNS: The family's lawyer says that's a big problem. He says they should never have left her alone and there should have been a camera in the look-up to be the final record of what happened in confinement.

MICHAEL MANNING, GOTBAUM FAMILY ATTORNEY: Unfortunately, there's no video in that portion of the airport so that we can tell. And more unfortunately Carol's not here to tell us one way or the other.

JOHNS: A police department policy manual says audio and video recording of detainees is not permitted in the lock-up to protect detainees' privacy. Today, the husband of Carol Ann Gotbaum's arrived in Phoenix to take her body back to New York City, and there was even controversy over the body itself. While the county medical examiner's office permitted an independent autopsy by a pathologist who was hired by the family, the family's lawyer said certain organs, the brain, the neck, and the heart, were not turned over for independent examination.

MANNING: We don't know why. What we were told is that they were too busy. And that's a hard thing to hear under those circumstances, because our pathologist had to leave that afternoon and they knew that. So we were on a serious time pressure -- under serious time pressure to get that autopsy done and get it done completely.

JOHNS: The Maricopa County medical examiner could not be reached for comment. One former medical examiner who has handled his share of high profile cases is Dr. Jonathan Arden of Washington, D.C., he said it is not uncommon for certain body parts to be held back for further study. In a case like this, however, there's a danger.

JONATHAN ARDEN, FORMER MEDICAL EXAMINER: You really need to be particularly careful about the release of information, not to look like you're hiding something, not to give anybody the false impression or any impression that they're not getting the full story.

JOHNS: And transparency here is part of the reason police held this news conference and released the video.

Joe Johns, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Coming up, he is running for president of the United States, but a new development in his home state could have New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson eying another office. We'll ask him about that, when he joins us live just ahead in the NEWSROOM.

LEMON: Well, there he is right there, Betty.

NGUYEN: Stepping right up here.

LEMON: Hey, governor. Nice to meet you. Good to see you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: He is a governor of New Mexico, Democratic candidate for president of the United States, and today, he's here at CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta. Right here sitting next to me, Governor Bill Richardson is in Georgia to meet state leaders and to raise some money.

And speaking of raising money, was it $5.5 million that you raised the third quarter? And you say, you believe that's respectable?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON, (D) NEW MEXICO: It's enough for me to win the nomination because it's going to be the first four states that are key. Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, all in January. I feel that it's not going to be about how much money you raise, it's about who has the most experience, qualifications, change, and I'm starting to move up in the polls.

LEMON: Well, since you mention that, I mean, how do you compete against, you know, $27 million to Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, $19 million. And would you be willing, because John Edwards said he'd be willing to take some money from other places in order to run his campaign. Would you do that?

RICHARDSON: No, I think what Senator Edwards did, going to public financing, really disadvantages Democrats because you're not able to raise funds between the day you win the primaries and the time you're officially nominated.

So, I'm going to continue raising money. It's painful, but it's part of the process. We need public financing. That should be the lesson in this race will (ph) the huge amounts of money that are being raised.

LEMON: That's being raised, OK.

Let's talk to the -- on sort of a sadder topic. Pete Domenici, who's from your home state, making this sad announcement the other day about having dementia. Have you spoken to him?

RICHARSON: Yes, I have. He's a good man and he was a great senator. But obviously, his doctors said he couldn't run. I think he's going to beat this, but he made the right decision. This was a man with a great intellect, and to be hobbled like this is -- I'm very sorry about it. But, he was a great senator and the guy is a fighter. And I know he's going to be OK.

LEMON: OK, Governor, let's talk about the issues now. When it comes to Iraq, you said immediate pull-out of troops in Iraq. Members of your own party disagree with that. Why is this -- why are you calling for it and how do you feel about the others disagreeing with you?

RICHARDSON: Well, the big difference is that I say, take them out as quickly as we can, as safely as we can. Let the military decide that, whether it's six or eight months, but I say leave no troops behind.

LEMON: But the leaders there on the ground and many critics say that's going to lead to a civil war. And some people say there's already a civil war going on.

RICHARDSON: There's a civil war, sectarian conflict already. Our kids, our troops have become targets. Not until they all leave, can we start political compromise and reconciliation, and Senators Clinton, Obama and Edwards are saying they're going to leave troops 'til 2013. That's not ending the war.

My plan ends the war, but it doesn't just wave away with our troops leaving. It's diplomacy. I would personally participate in that diplomacy. I know the region ...

LEMON: Yes.

RICHARDSON: ...I was the U.N. Ambassador. I went head to head with Saddam Hussein. Got two political prisoners out. LEMON: Yes, so, and you did that -- you know, I just -- not to hop scotch and jump back and forth, but I missed my opportunity to ask you about would you consider taking that seat, Pete Domenici's seat because he's not going to run again.

RICHARDSON: No, I'm running for president.

LEMON: OK.

RICHARDSON: And being governor is better than being a senator.

LEMON: OK, would you consider the vice presidency if it doesn't turn out the way you want?

RICHARDSON: I mean, we haven't even had a vote and you want me to do something else. I'm going to win this nomination. I'm not interested in the vice presidency. If it doesn't work out for me as president, I'll go back to the best job in the world. Governor of New Mexico in the sunset, riding my horse.

LEMON: So, if one -- the person who gets to be the -- be candidate, if they say to you, Governor Richardson, I want you to be my running mate, you're going to say no?

RICHARDSON: I'm going to say I want to be governor of New Mexico again, and I'm very happy where I am, but I'm going to win the nomination. You guys have me running for the Senate, vice president, secretary of state, we haven't even had a vote. We're three months away. I'm going to win the nomination. I'm going to be an upset winner.

LEMON: OK, I see you're wearing your flag pin today. There's been some controversy about Senator Obama, who's saying he's not going to wear a flag pin because his patriotism is on the inside. That's how he's going to show it.

RICHARDSON: Patriotism is what you do. And I don't think anyone should -- I think if you feel good about wearing it, wear it. I wear it. It's perfectly good to wear it. I love this flag. I love this country. I wear it. But patriotism is what you do, not what you say. It's what you do.

LEMON: OK, let's talk about immigration. Of course, you know, New Mexico's a huge state for immigrants coming in. And it has been called a sanctuary state. New York City and other cities have been called sanctuary cities. Are you opposed to that idea of having sanctuary states or sanctuary cities where people can go and not necessarily have to worry so much about immigration rules?

RICHARDSON: No, I'm not opposed to it. The reason that exists is because we have a broken immigration system. The Congress and the president have refused to act on comprehensive immigration reform. We got to secure our borders, we got to find those that knowingly hire illegal workers, but there has to be a legalization plan. You can't deport 12 million people. You can't give them amnesty, but you can let them stay if they learn English, if they pay back taxes, if they pass a background check. Let's be sensible about immigration reform.

LEMON: And real quick, you said no fence.

RICHARDSON: No fence, it's not going to work. You have a 12- foot fence, you know what'll happen? Thirteen foot ladders. It's not going to work.

I had a border emergency in my state because there was a huge flow. It's technology, it's people, trained border patrol agents, the National Guard. But a fence is not going to work. It's a terrible symbol. Fences have not worked. The Great Wall of China, the Berlin Wall. That's not good among peoples, especially friends like the United States and mexico.

LEMON: Governor Bill Richardson, we appreciate you dropping by today in person to speak with us.

RICHARDSON: Thank you, nice to be with you.

LEMON: Nice to be with you, thank you.

RICHARDSON: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Coming up, a symbol of hatred and racial intolerance. The noose occupies a cruel part of American history. We're going to take a look, that's ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Five elementary school teachers in Louisiana will be punished to some degree because of a lesson on race, hate, and violence. These photos, take a look, published in the Grambling State University newspaper, show children five and six-years-old handling nooses and in one, an adult is holding a noose around a little girl's neck. Grambling's president announced today that he'll seek sanctions against the five teachers at the university-run elementary school, and that could mean anything from reprimands to dismissal.

Now, the teachers were teaching the children about hate symbols in the wake of the Jena 6 protest. And when you hear the Billy Holliday song, "Strange Fruit," well, it takes a moment to realize that she is singing about human bodies, swinging from tree branches on the end of ropes. It is a mournful reference to a disgraceful period in U.S. history, one whose central symbol remains as powerful as Holliday's voice.

Here's CNN's Rick Sanchez.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILLY HOLLIDAY, SINGER (singing): Southern trees bear a strange fruit, blood on the leaves ...

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): These are the lyrics of a poem, later a Billy Holliday song from the 1930s.

HOLLIDAY (singing): Black body swinging in the Southern breeze, strange ...

SANCHEZ: You still hear that song, sometimes. But that may be all you'll ever hear about this long, shameful era that started in the 1880s, in the United States, after the Civil War.

Now, the origin of the word "lynch," perhaps it comes from a guy named Lynch, known for dispensing brutal justice. But there's no doubt that in this country, lynching lasted until the 1960s. Yes, that recently. There were nearly 5,000 deaths in all but four states, mostly in the deep south, mostly the victims were black.

Lynching doesn't just mean death in a noose at the end of a rope. But also burning alive, beating, drowning, shooting, sometimes all of the above. It happened to men and women, to boys and girls. It happened to people who, often for no reason whatever, were accused of murder, rape, robberies or just insulting a white person.

Society seems to have forgotten how long it lasted, how many died, but once, it was front page news. Well documented, well- photographed, and in those pictures, the mob smiles, the mob rules. Like a swastika or a burning cross, a noose no longer symbolizes anything but hate, brutality, and evil.

Rick Sanchez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: So, do the people who use the noose as a hateful symbol always know its brutal legacy? Well, Rick Sanchez asked a University of Maryland Law professor if it even mattered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROF. SHERRILYN IFILL, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Yes, I think that's a really important question, what's the motivation. And I know some people like to say well, it's just a prank. I think it's an especially important question when we're dealing with young people, because they do know that this symbol is powerful. They do know that they're going to get a reaction. They do know that it's going to be offensive and maybe intimidating to African-Americans.

Now, do they know the full history, the history of lynching in this country and why this symbol carries so much power and what it means about the communities where they live? Lynchings happened in communities all over this country. Do they know about their own town's history, do they know about their grandparents and their great- grandparents?

I'd say the answer is probably no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Now, nooses hanging from a tree sparked the anger that resulted in the Jena 6 protest in Louisiana last month.

LEMON: Taking on the world's biggest retailer and losing. A Kentucky man and his wife have more reason today to be angry with Wal- Mart. We'll explain why, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We have a follow-up to a story we first told you about yesterday. A Kentucky man and his wife who are locked in a battle with Wal-Mart. Well, they have a new reason to be angry.

The latest now from Rebecca Rector with our affiliate WHAS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MCCARTY, HOMEOWNER: I've never been against them putting this store here. All I've been against is having to eat their dust and their blasting for the last four months.

REBECCA RECTOR, WHAS REPORTER: A Marion County sheriff's deputy served David and Penny McCarty these, a civil summons on behalf of Wal-Mart, a restraining order from their own property, and a court appearance at 2:00.

PENNY MCCARTY, HOMEOWNER: It's going to injure us, it's going to damage our property.

D. MCCARTY: And I don't know ...

P. MCCARTY: How do they have the right to damage our property?

RECTOR: While family and friends kept an eye on the dynamite buried just feet from their property, the McCartys stood before a judge, explaining that Wal-Mart had never been in contact with them, and they believe the company's blasting has already cracked the foundation of their house.

D. MCCARTY: I sat down as a witness for my first time I've ever been in a courtroom in any kind of hearing or anything. I'm 59-years- old, and like I told the lawyers and the judge, I said I'm a law- abiding citizen, and I ain't here to break no laws, you know.

RECTOR: Wal-Mart's attorney argued an issue of public safety, the McCartys, a violation of their right to remain on their own property. But in the end, the judge ruled for Wal-Mart, allowing the dynamite to be detonated.

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