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Nancy Grace
Woman Found Dead After Answering On-Line Ad for Nanny
Aired October 29, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: murder on Craigslist. A gorgeous young woman, a high school valedictorian turned Phi Beta Kappa college grad, answers an ad for a nanny, using the highly popular Web site Craigslist, then never heard from again, twenty-four hours later, 24-year-old Katherine Olson found in the trunk of her car in a Burnsville, Minnesota, nature preserve.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police in Minnesota say that an on-line job offer may have led to a murder. They`re investigating the death a young woman who apparently answered an ad for a nanny. That job was posted on the popular Internet bulletin board Craigslist. Investigators say that Katherine Olson`s friends just saw her on Thursday when she went to meet someone about this ad. The next day, her body was found in the trunk of her car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was evil and this was human brokenness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I absolutely will not accept comments like, This was God`s will.
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GRACE: And tonight: An 11-month-old Texas baby boy rushed to the ER for a fractured arm, but the little boy exhibits no pain whatsoever. Why? He`s high on cocaine, the baby`s twin brother and two toddler siblings also testing cocaine-positive. Tonight, Mommy and Daddy have a new pair of shoes, prison-issued flip-flops!
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inside apartment 46 at this northwest Houston complex, police say they discovered nothing short of squalor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was nowhere that you could look where there was not roaches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only roaches, but investigators tell us drugs, too. Tammy Lynn (ph) Melton and Emanuel Jones face felony charges after four of their eight children tested positive for cocaine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We think that the children just somehow must have gotten ahold of the parents` cocaine because the children who tested positive were two 11-month-old twins, a 1-and-a-half-year-old and a 2-and- a-half-year-old.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight: Day two of testimony. A Nevada millionaire hits the FBI`s Most Wanted list after the sniper-style shooting of a Reno court judge, a judge presiding over the alleged shooter`s divorce, millionaire Darren Mack`s wife found stabbed to death all on the same day.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prosecution, they are saying this was a very premeditated murder on the part of Darren Mack. He was going through a divorce with his wife, Charla, that he didn`t want to pay the spousal support, didn`t want to pay the $1 million he had decided to do at the end. So the end result was he stabbed her to death. But he didn`t stop there, the prosecution said. He went on to the judge`s chamber -- that`s the family court judge that was handling all the matters -- and from the garage next door to the courthouse, fired one sniper shot two football fields long. One shot punctured through the glass, hit the judge, but the judge survived.
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GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. First tonight: Murder on Craigslist.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wanted adventure and she danced on the edge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Olson found some of that adventure on the Internet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She found things on line, and we would wring our hands and say, Have you checked these people out?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On Thursday, a baby-sitting job she found on Craigslist lead Olson to Savage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it seemed kind of fishy, but she was just going to check it out and meet them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She thought she was meeting with a married couple.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it didn`t work, she assumed that she`d be able to turn around and leave and come home. But it didn`t work out that way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Early Friday, police found Olson`s purse in a Savage park. Late Friday, they found her car in a Burnsville park, her body inside the trunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have a word to describe how -- you know, this situation. It`s very tragic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Olson leaves behind a family who not only grieves for her, but also for a lifetime of people who could have known her and been touched by her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She answers an ad for an a nanny on Craigslist. The highly popular Web site is used by millions of people. Her body is found in her car trunk the next day.
Out to John Wanamaker with WCCO Newsradio 830 AM. John, Tell me what happened? What led up to the discovery of her body?
JOHN WANAMAKER, WCCO NEWSRADIO 830 AM: Well, Nancy, this is a case that began innocently enough and that ended up as one of the more unusual cases I`ve ever seen. Last Friday, a park worker in Savage found a purse belonging to 24-year-old Katherine Olson, the victim. Police called Olson`s number. They thought it was just a routine robbery. Olson`s roommate told police that she hadn`t been seen since Thursday morning, when she left to meet someone about an ad for a nanny job that had been posted, as you said, on the Internet site Craigslist.
This quickly turned into a missing person`s case. Several agencies were involved, and police, with the help of a state patrol helicopter, eventually located Olson`s car in another park in neighboring Burnsville from -- that -- Burnsville neighboring Savage, where the ad was posted. And Olson`s body was found in the trunk of that car, Nancy.
GRACE: John -- with us is John Wanamaker from WCCO Newsradio 830 AM. John, had she answered similar ads before? Never had a problem, right?
WANAMAKER: She had answered similar job postings before on Craigslist. She had had a nanny job, actually, in Turkey that she had gotten through the Internet. So this is something with which she was familiar. And I just don`t think that she saw anything fishy about this ad. She thought she was going to meet a family.
GRACE: Out to a special guest joining us tonight, Captain David Muelken. He is the public information officer there at the Savage Police Department. Captain, thank you for being with us. Captain, this whole thing started to unfold with an observant person finding her pocketbook in a trashcan, right?
CAPT. DAVID MUELKEN, SAVAGE POLICE DEPARTMENT: That is correct. At first, we thought it was just a stolen purse and it was discarded in the garbage container.
GRACE: And then what happened, Captain?
MUELKEN: We made a phone call to try and contact the owner of the purse and to make arrangements to return the personal contents. And we heard from the victim`s mother and her roommate and determined that she had not been seen for -- since Thursday morning. And at that point then, we -- it turned into a missing person`s investigation.
GRACE: With us...
MUELKEN: Officers responded back down to where the purse was located and discovered some bloody evidence.
GRACE: With us is Captain David Muelken with the Savage Police Department. Captain, this turned into a full-scale search. Once you learned -- once the police learned that she had not been seen since Thursday, when she left to go answer this ad, how did you end up finding her vehicle there in the nature preserve?
MUELKEN: Well, after we did a physical search in the immediate area in the park where the purse was found and did not find anything, we called the Minnesota state patrol, their air support unit, with a helicopter with infrared-sensing instruments to help us maybe detect some heat in an area where we might not have seen it, in some of the more heavily wooded areas. And the helicopter observed the victim`s vehicle in a nearby park.
GRACE: For those of you that are not familiar with Craigslist, it is highly, highly popular. You can find anything from an old VCR to a job as a nanny on there. Your kids are probably on Craigslist right now.
Out to Stephen Bailey, a special guest joining us out of Boston. He is with the Radkids organization, and he is an Internet safety expert. Explain, what is Craigslist? How did this happen?
STEPHEN BAILEY, RADKIDS.ORG, INTERNET SAFETY EXPERT: Well, it`s sad to say, Nancy, but I think this could happen to almost anyone. I think it`s time we need to change our education to the Internet and instead of assuming that this is real, what we see, we should assume the opposite, actually.
GRACE: Craigslist...
BAILEY: ... that it`s not real.
GRACE: What is Craigslist?
BAILEY: Craigslist is a social networking advertisement system that is in place for lots of useful purposes, as well as, we found out today, possibly a bad purpose, as well.
GRACE: OK, what I`m trying to get at, Stephen, is why do people go on line and type in Craigslist.com. What do you hope to find?
BAILEY: You hope to find anything, anything you`re looking for, something you`re trying to buy, a job, a friend. There`s networking. Virtually, it`s a networking site for virtually anything you want. In this case, it appears that she was looking for a job.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Heather in Missouri. Hi, Heather.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have they made contact with these -- the people she was actually answering the ad to?
GRACE: Oh, yes, Heather. In fact, we believe that an arrest has been made in this case. I want to go out to Elizabeth Mohr to answer Heather`s question. Joining us, Elizabeth Mohr. She`s a reporter with "The St. Paul Pioneer Press." Elizabeth, tell me about the young man that they have in custody. What do we know so far?
ELIZABETH MOHR, "ST. PAUL PIONEER PRESS": He`s a 19-year-old from Savage, Minnesota, which is the same town where her purse and the bloody towel was found. "The Pioneer Press" reported his name this weekend, although authorities haven`t confirmed that the person they`re going to charge tomorrow is the same one that we`ve located. But there was a 19- year-old from Savage who was arrested and booked early Saturday morning. We believe it`s the same guy.
GRACE: What can you tell me about him?
MOHR: Neighbors say he`s a very nice guy. They call him a good kid. He likes to work on cars. He had a go-kart, never caused any problems. That`s about it.
GRACE: To John Wanamaker with WCCO Newsradio 830 AM. I know that he`s 19. I believe that -- did he still live with his parents, John?
WANAMAKER: That`s correct. We`re told he did live with his parents.
GRACE: Was he in school?
WANAMAKER: No, actually, he was working out at St. Paul -- Minneapolis International Airport. He had just started working there at the beginning of the month. And oddly enough, he worked in the same area as two of the sons of somebody else in our newsroom, and they had heard from someone else who was training this person, the suspect, that he did seem a little off.
GRACE: Training him as a what? What was he going to do?
WANAMAKER: I believe he was going to train to refuel aircraft.
GRACE: All right, 19 years old, lives at home, has a go-kart, works on cars. Does he have a criminal record, John Wanamaker?
WANAMAKER: We are told he does have a juvenile record, but it`s for very minor stuff. It`s not for anything violent. So he does not have a real extensive criminal past.
GRACE: I want to go to go out to Stephen Bailey again, with Radkids.org. He`s an Internet safety expert. Stephen, it should be fairly easy to look up who placed the ad on Craigslist. How does that work?
BAILEY: Law enforcement uses computer forensic experts to track back. And I know that Craigslist, for example, has worked with law enforcement in the past to provide that information. So law enforcement would be able to try and track that back to the original message (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of the LA jurisdiction, you know her well, defense attorney Rikki Klieman. Also joining us out of San Francisco, high-profile lawyer Daniel Horowitz.
To you, Rikki Klieman. Isn`t it a matter of simply giving Craigslist a subpoena and asking them for the information, Who placed this ad, what can you tell us?
RIKKI KLIEMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it starts there, Nancy. Of course, we have to find out if, in fact, this young man, this 19-year-old from Savage, is the one who placed the ad. But it goes beyond that because the real proof in this case, if it is this young man, is not going to be in the placing of the ad because she could have gone anywhere before, during or after the meeting. It`s going to be in the forensics. And if we see that there`s a bloody towel that has already been found, my guess is you`re going to find a bloody crime scene somewhere.
GRACE: What about it, Daniel Horowitz? Agree or disagree?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree. We know nothing bad about this young man. What I know, Nancy, is that he already has passed a background check because he`s refueling aircraft. He`s 19. Look, this young woman is a savvy person. She`s not going to go someplace strange with a 19-year-old -- Knock, knock, I`m here for the job to take care of your children. Wait, you`re a 19-year-old kid who lives at home? There`s something wrong here.
I don`t like this case. It`s not shaping up the way it should.
GRACE: What do you mean, you don`t like the case? Who could like it? I mean, this young girl has been found dead in a trunk. How could anybody like the case?
HOROWITZ: I don`t like that they`re pinning it on a 19-year-old person. All the suspicion is focusing on him. We`re convicting him before we know the facts. I`m not blaming you, Nancy. You`re just going with what you got. But we`re already hearing on your airwaves that he was a little strange, from somebody who knows somebody who knows him. I don`t like it. Let`s give this kid a chance.
GRACE: OK. Back out to John Wanamaker with WCCO Newsradio 830 AM. What do we know of so far that is connecting him to the body?
WANAMAKER: We know very little, Nancy. That is what we will, hopefully, learn tomorrow when we get a look at the criminal complaint. This man is expected to be charged tomorrow. And you`re right, and the gentleman who on before me is right, we know nothing of motive or intent. And we -- that has not been released and right now...
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute, though, John. The state doesn`t have to prove motive. We don`t have to know why someone commits an act that they commit.
WANAMAKER: Sure.
GRACE: I`m talking about -- I know this much. When you find a body in the trunk of a car and you find a bloody towel, you are going to find forensic evidence, just like Rikki Klieman said.
Out to Dr. Jake Deutsch, doctor of emergency medicine, joining us. Doctor, Why, if you do believe, do you believe that there will be forensic evidence linking the perpetrator to the victim?
DR. JAKE DEUTSCH, EMERGENCY MEDICINE, HACKENSACK UNIV. MEDICAL CENTER: Well, clearly, the bloody rag that was described is going to be the biggest piece of forensic evidence. But the autopsy will also be looking for cause of death, be looking for other things, like fibers, any body fluids. Certainly, there will have to be a rape investigation. There`s a lot of questions that could be answered by this investigation from the forensics point of view. SO I think that there`s a lot to be figured out, based on what we`re hearing so far.
GRACE: Back to Captain David Muelken, joining us from the Savage Police Department. Do we know whether she was clothed at the time that she was found in the trunk?
MUELKEN: Well, due to the ongoing investigations, we`re not disclosing much of the details of the...
GRACE: OK. I respect that, Captain. Are there going to be formal charges tomorrow?
MUELKEN: We expect formal charges tomorrow to be filed before noon.
GRACE: What do you believe the charges will be?
MUELKEN: At this time, I believe it`s going to be second degree homicide.
GRACE: Why second degree? What is second degree homicide in that jurisdiction?
MUELKEN: Well, first degree is premeditation, and certainly, a case that we`re trying to prepare. And at this point, we do want to get a criminal charge and get some of the information out to the public, so -- to answer the questions that are being discussed here.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Erica in Georgia. Hi, Erica.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I want to know if in any way, can her family can hold Craigslist responsible?
GRACE: Oh, excellent question. Rikki Klieman, can they?
KLIEMAN: (INAUDIBLE) great question of all of this. You know, one of the issues is, of course, if Craigslist, like Myspace, like Facebook, like any of the others -- if Craigslist does nothing to ensure safety, well, then we say the law hasn`t caught up with technology. But if Craigslist, as a matter of practice, has done certain things to assure safety but somehow missed this one, you may have another issue. I think you`ve got to go back to your expert in Boston to find out, do they do some due diligence here, because if they do, there`s a problem.
GRACE: You know, Daniel Horowitz, if they represent themselves as doing background checks on people, then I think they`ve got even more of a problem.
HOROWITZ: Right, but they have no problem. It`s the classified ads. Craigslist is the classified ads in your newspaper on the computer.
GRACE: Right.
HOROWITZ: They don`t know who is listing things. They don`t know if they`re selling junk, real stuff, fake stuff. You go there at your own risk, and that`s it. End of discussion.
GRACE: With me, Rikki Klieman and Daniel Horowitz. We`ll all be right back. We`re taking your calls live.
But first, to tonight`s "Case Alert." A $250,000 reward -- the search goes on for a white Ford pick-up in the arson investigation of California wildfires. Those fires devastated over half a million acres. The pick-up linked to the Santiago fire, Orange County, spotted in the area at the start of the fire. Investigators also looking for video or photos taken between 5:55 PM and 6:15 PM October 21 in that location. If you have info, call Orange County toll-free, 800-540-8282.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole situation started with finding her purse discarded in a garbage can in a park, which led to a physical search of the area, trying to find any additional information on this person. We had a Minnesota state patrol helicopter assisting us with infrared-seeking equipment. And about a half mile or so from the park we were in, the helicopter observed the victim`s car parked in a nature preserve parking lot, and the car was searched and her body was in the trunk.
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GRACE: She answers an innocent ad on Craigslist looking for a nanny, her body found in a car trunk the very next day.
Out to the lines. Gina in Tennessee. Hi, Gina.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Just want to let you know, congratulations.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re my hero. Did they find any hair or anything like DNA or anything out there in the trunk?
GRACE: Gina, I feel very strongly that with a murder scene like this, or at least a disposal scene, they are going to find forensics. However, the police are playing it close to the vest. We do know there`ll be a formal charge coming down tomorrow. We`re expecting it to be a murder two charge. That`s according to Captain David Muelken. Of course, we won`t know until we hear it in court tomorrow, but I can assure you that with a scene like this, there`s going to be some type of forensics.
Out to Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychologist and author, also host of her own show on GSN. Dr. Robi, question. Do you believe that we let our guard down when we go on line? And if so, why?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think there can be a false sense of intimacy, of knowing who you`re dealing with. And also, if you`re an honest person and you`re somewhat naive, then you are going to assume the people you`re dealing with are honest and trustworthy. And unfortunately, that`s just simply not the case, especially when it comes to the Internet, where people can hide their true identity.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was evil and this was human brokenness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I absolutely will not accept comments like, This was God`s will.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know where Katherine is, and so we are not afraid for Katherine. We will miss her terribly. She was a bright light and a free spirit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Straight out to retired LAPD detective Bill Dworin. Bill, thank you for being with us. In answer to an earlier question, do you believe there will be forensic evidence? If, so why? Bill, are you with me?
BILL DWORIN, RETIRED LAPD DETECTIVE, CHILDREN`S PROTECTION AND ADVOCACY COALITION: I expect to find forensic evidence. Yes, I am. Can you hear me?
GRACE: Yes. Go ahead.
DWORIN: Hello?
GRACE: Yes.
DWORIN: Yes, I expect they will find forensics.
GRACE: Why?
DWORIN: There`s several different crime scenes. The place where the body was located, there should be forensic evidence there because of the placement of the body, DNA evidence, fingerprint evidence. The place where they found the bag, as well as the bloody rag, there should be evidence there. The rag I was told was wrapped in a plastic bag. There may be fingerprints evidence on the bag. And of course, the crime scene itself. Where she was killed? And of course, when they find that crime scene -- and search warrants were (ph) served on the residence -- that may be where the crime scene is, where the crime occurred.
GRACE: Bill Dworin, I agree with you.
Everyone, when we come back: Infant twin toddlers test positive for cocaine, this after one child rushed to ER with a fractured arm.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CPS has investigated the parents at least five previous times. In 2002, doctors suggested CPS watch the mother, because she appeared so young and inexperienced. Months later, she was caught giving inappropriate food to her baby. Then, in 2005, CPS looked into her again, after she admitted using cocaine to induce labor. Her children were then given to their grandmother. Then, three weeks ago, Houston police told CPS about the children living in their roach-infested apartment, grandmother and all. CPS could not find them until the child ended up at the hospital. Finally, custody was revoked.
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GRACE: An 11-month-old child testing positive for cocaine, altogether four children testing positive out of one home. Out to Michael Board (ph) with WOI News Radio, Michael, take it from the top. What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy, you hear about this story, and it`s really hard to believe that this is actually happening in America. This doesn`t sound like America. Eleven people in total living in a one-bedroom apartment, eight kids, mom and dad and a grandma, all living in a filthy, squalor one-bedroom apartment, just absolutely the worst conditions you could think about, squalor, udder trash, infested with roaches.
And this is part of the story that will really just break your heart. Mom and dad took their 11-month-old son to the hospital for a broken arm. The doctors there, the nurses tried to figure out what was wrong with this child. And they figured out not only, yes, he have a broken arm, but he also had another break that had already been healed over and bleeding in the brain, a subdural hematoma, just bad news for this little child. That, obviously, sent up red flags.
They took a look at all the kids and figured out this one kid, 11- month-old child, what was strange about him is he wasn`t crying, he wasn`t screaming. He was completely calm even though he had a broken arm. So they started running tests on this child, and what they figured out is this child, 11-year-old boy, was high as a kite. He was flying high on cocaine.
They tested all their children, all eight children. It came back that four of their eight children tested positive for cocaine. Mom and dad admitted using cocaine. So the obvious question here is: Well, how did the kids get cocaine into their system? It turns out the four kids got into mom and dad`s stash and started eating their cocaine. That`s how they got high on cocaine.
GRACE: But wait. This little boy is only 11 months...
BORED: Eleven months old. Eleven months old.
GRACE: To Dr. Jake Deutsch, doctor of emergency medicine, Dr. Deutsch, at 11 months old, can a child even walk around freely to get into somebody`s coke stash?
DR. JAKE DEUTSCH, EMERGENCY MEDICINE: That`s what I don`t understand. The situation doesn`t add up. First of all, cocaine is used as an anesthetic, so it`s actually very acidic in nature, so it doesn`t have a good taste. So why would these children be ingesting it, unless it was in something they drank or in some sort of food product?
The other thing I`m really suspicious about is, were they smoking the cocaine? And were these children exposed to some of the smoke products and, therefore, they tested positive because of that? I don`t understand how they could have gotten this into their system any other likely way.
GRACE: Out to senior police officer, investigator in the Houston P.D., Catheryn Gardner-Sanders. Officer, thank you for being with us. What is the theory about how these four out of eight children had cocaine in their system? I just don`t believe an 11-month-old can find mommy and daddy`s stash and get into it.
CATHERYN GARDNER-SANDERS, SR. POLICE INVESTIGATION: Well, I believe that they were around the parents when the parents were smoking crack cocaine. I`m not a physician and do not run the tests, but for four of the children to test positive for cocaine, I believe they were in the vicinity when they were, you know, smoking the crack cocaine.
GRACE: I think that`s highly logical. Out to the lines, Tamara in Pennsylvania. Hi, Tamara.
CALLER: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?
CALLER: Why were the children still with their parents anyway? Why were they with any of them?
GRACE: You know what? I want to clear something up. They`ve been taken away, as of right now, Tamara, but here`s the kicker. I hope you`re sitting down, Tamara in Pennsylvania, because, as I recall, there have been five -- repeat, one, two, three, four, five -- investigations by child protective services of this family and the children were still in the home. So, Michael Bored, why were they still in the home?
BORED: Good question. A lot of us want the answer to that question. We`ve had a lot of problem here in Texas with an overburdened child protective services system. It`s been a big problem across the state. They`ve done a whole overhaul of the CPS system here in Texas, because the workers came out and said, "Look, we just can`t cover all of the cases that we have.:
BORED: You know, Estella Olguin is with us. Estella, thank you so much for being with us. She`s with child protective services there in Houston. I know that everyone is overloaded, but five investigations in the last few years and the children are still in the home. Why would they still be in the home?
ESTELLA OLGUIN, CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES: Well, actually, we had three investigations, and the last one being in 2005. And the children were placed with the grandmother who, at the time, assured us that the mother would not be returning back to take the children. What happened in the last few years, it looked like mother had an additional five children and she and her boyfriend, Emanuel, and all the children and grandma then lived together in this one-bedroom apartment.
GRACE: Well, if you gave the children to the grandmother, isn`t the grandmother living there in the home with the parents who are using cocaine?
OLGUIN: Right, it looks like not only were they returned back to the home by the grandmother, but she might have been aware that the children were exposed to the parents` activities.
GRACE: You know, according to our research, there has been an investigation by child protective services ongoing since 2002, February 2002. Months later, the mom giving inappropriate food to the same baby; 2005, Melton allegedly used cocaine to induce labor; 2005, December, is when the grandmother said she would care for the children; 2007, found out about children living in roach-infested apartment.
We have another example in 2005 where the mom lost the kids for a while, given to the grandmother. It doesn`t make sense that the grandmother lived there. That equals five. Then the 11-month-old ends up in the hospital. But now, in the nick of time, thank God, child services has taken the children away.
I want to go back out to our lawyers, Rikki Klieman and Daniel Horowitz. This is a tragedy waiting to happen. Now, all these children are going to be broken up, Daniel Horowitz. And that`s bad enough, but at least they`re out of the home.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Too late, Nancy. You know, I respect that somebody from CPS went on your show. On behalf of those children, here`s what I have to say to that CPS office: You folks stink! What you did was wrong. You left those kids in harm`s way. You might as well let them play in traffic and walked away. I do not understand what they did. There`s no excuse for it. They are culpable; they should be charged, in my opinion, with the crime.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Stacy in Canada, hi, Stacy.
CALLER: Hi there. I`m just wondering how much more fit is the grandmother that was in the home, if she got custody first, but she was there when these kids are high on cocaine now? And was she ever involved in (INAUDIBLE) with the mother of the child?
GRACE: Excellent question. To Catheryn Gardner-Sanders, joining us out of Houston, if the grandmother got custody of the children, and the grandmother is right there in this roach-infested home with the parents, with the cocaine, what good is that doing anybody?
SANDERS: The grandmother specifically told me that, when she did get custody of the children, she was -- she had told the mother when she did come back into the home that she would not have her doing any types of drugs. So what she did, you know, she said if she did catch her doing any drugs, she would rid her hands of her.
She was very -- her daughter or granddaughter was very manipulative and told her all kind of stories as to how the children, you know, ingested the drugs or were given the drugs by a neighbor. But she wanted to believe her, because she didn`t have a good relationship with the boyfriend.
GRACE: I will tell you, it just boggles my mind that you take away custody from the parents and then give it to the grandmother, who is herself an invalid living there in the home. It just -- and now the kid is in the hospital...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... in the hospital with cocaine in his system with swelling and bleeding to the brain and a broken arm. I just don`t know how anybody can justify doing that.
Out to the lines, Elaine in Texas. Hi, Elaine.
CALLER: Hi, I`m actually in Houston, and I`m appalled at our CPS system. And I don`t understand how all of these children can be sleeping in a one-bedroom apartment. Where was somebody? Where was CPS? Where was a neighbor? Where was somebody...
GRACE: Elaine, Elaine, when they were interviewing these people, a roach actually came off of one of the children. I mean, the conditions are squalid.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDY BURTON, ATTORNEY: CPS did clearly drop the ball.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Houston attorney Randy Burton who founded Justice for Children believes that CPS should have intervened before Houston police finally had to.
BURTON: If they hadn`t intervened when they did, I`m confident within months we would have seen a dead child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All eight of the couple`s children are now in foster homes.
Inside apartment 46 at this northwest Houston complex, police say they discovered nothing short of squalor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was nowhere that you could look where there was not roaches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only roaches, but investigators tell us drugs, too. Tammy Lynn Melton and Emanuel Jones face felony charges after four of their eight children tested positive for cocaine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We think that the children just somehow must have gotten a hold of the parents` cocaine, because the children who tested positive were two 11-month-old twins, a 1 1/2-year-old, and a 2 1/2-year- old.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Hard to believe here in this country, the richest country in the world. Out to the lines, Josh in Florida. Hi, Josh.
CALLER: Hi, Josh. How are you, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: (OFF-MIKE)
GRACE: Good question. I don`t we`ve got the answer to that one. Out to Sheila in Texas. Hi, Sheila.
CALLER: Yes, I live here in Houston, but I have a question. Here in the hospitals in the medical center, this mother gave birth. And if cocaine was used to induce the labor, and they were caught, why wasn`t CPS inside of the hospital notified to put this parent, these parents on watch?
GRACE: You know what, Sheila? You`re exactly correct.
Out to Rikki Klieman. Rikki, she had apparently used cocaine to induce labor on one occasion before.
RIKKI KLIEMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, indeed.
GRACE: And nothing was done.
KLIEMAN: Yes, indeed. Well, that`s exactly the point. Nothing was done. That was one of the five incidents, one of the five supposed interventions. And if that one wasn`t enough to take these kids away, I don`t know what was. And I think the truth really is, Nancy, that the only blessing in this case is that these children are still alive.
GRACE: Rikki, I have to agree with you. That is the only blessing.
Out to the lines, Dawn in Georgia. Hi, Dawn.
CALLER: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What is your question?
CALLER: My question is, with CPS making all of these home visits and with the hospital, inducing labor, what accountability is CPS, what penalty will they have to pay? Because this is a crime and they should be accountable for their not having any action or not doing anything about it, not just the parents, but CPS should be also accountable.
GRACE: What about it, Daniel Horowitz? Is there any criminal culpability?
HOROWITZ: I wish there were, Nancy, but there isn`t. And what`s going to happen if we`re not careful is these two parents are going to be hung out to dry. You know, Nancy, they`re sick. They`re very, very ill. And cps could have forced them into treatment and they could have protected the kids.
GRACE: You know what? You know what, Dan Horowitz? Don`t start up with me about them being sick...
HOROWITZ: They are.
GRACE: I`d like to finish. Instead of puffing on their crack pipe all day long...
HOROWITZ: That`s an illness. You think it`s fun?
GRACE: Excuse me, Daniel, I`d like to finish! They need to be taking care of their children and not living off their mother`s Social Security check, the invalid, all right?
HOROWITZ: Right. So put them in treatment so they can be good parents. It`s too late now.
GRACE: So I don`t want to hear anymore from you about how sick they are. Yes. You know what? Thanks for the input. That`s not helping anything right now. Of course, it`s too late.
HOROWITZ: Too late now. That`s right.
GRACE: It is. It is. Everybody, I want to tell you about a case going on out in Nevada. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, is that the area you described as having sufficient detail to make a comparison?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you told us your results were what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were made by one of the same individuals, Mr. Darren Mack, with relationship to the right lung.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can actually determine which finger or thumb made the print?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you couldn`t do that, then you couldn`t make the identification. You have to be able to tell which finger it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Testimony goes on in the case against a millionaire, Darren Mack. Joining us there on location, Jean Casarez. Jean, tell me the latest.
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Hi, Nancy, good evening. Well, today was forensics, very important for the prosecution. I think it will be used, though, by both sides. What I think is the strongest though -- you know, the prosecution has this list, a list that was found on the kitchen dinette table. And on that list, they say was written by Darren Mack was, "End problem," and underneath that, "Put Lex in garage."
Well, today we learned forensically that the Lexus that Charla Mack was driving that was letting out little Erika that day that was on the street, when police arrived, they found it in the garage. And inside that Lexus was blood everywhere. It was Charla Mack`s blood, but it wasn`t Charla Mack that put that car in the garage. It was Darren Mack, according to the prosecution.
In addition to that, there was blood all over the house, on the doorknobs, on the dead bolts, to a door out to a balcony. And so the prosecution is going to say, "Self-defense? You`re going to say that you were fighting for your life and you got your blood all over you as she lay dying?" Defense is going to come back on all of that and say, yes, it was self-defense.
Darren Mack admits he stabbed her. He admits he had to drag her body through the garage, because he then put the Lexus in the garage, and that`s how he got the blood all over him.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, it`s my understanding -- everyone, Jean Casarez, Court TV correspondent covering the case for Court TV with us live, that she was covered in defensive wounds, including wounds on her legs. Explain to me her defensive wounds.
CASAREZ: All right, the prosecution is calling them defensive wounds. She was fighting for her life, as Darren Mack had that knife and was knifing her. But the defense is saying, no, no, no, she was holding a gun, and those aren`t defensive wounds. Darren Mack was trying to get that gun out of her hand, and that`s why he was slicing her arms like he did, and very bad slash wounds.
GRACE: Well, didn`t she have defensive wounds on her legs? When you`re under attack and you are lying down, you start to curl up instinctively to protect your organs. Didn`t she have defensive wounds on her legs, as well, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: There was one almost all the way around her leg, yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: To Headline Prime`s Glenn Beck, hi, friend.
BECK: You remember the good, old days when liberal college professors were the only special interests that we had to worry about in our universities? Well, now Islamofascists are getting sympathy, and those who disagree with that hateful message are being booed off campus. We`ll all of the details and some disturbing video, coming up.
Then, sexy Halloween costumes are being marketed to our kids. The answer is yes, and we have some stuff that will boggle your mind.
And police find a child porn chamber in a New Jersey house, all this and more, coming up.
GRACE: It`s day three and sworn testimony in the Darren Mack case. Straight out to Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author. Dr. Robi, when you look at the psychological profile of Darren Mack, a multimillionaire, what do you see?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: My sense about him is he was an abusive husband who became murderous. And maybe he was threatened that his wife was about to leave him. Maybe she got sick of him and, very much in keeping with a controlling type of killer, if he couldn`t control her, if he couldn`t have her, then he was going to get rid of her. And this is a rageful guy and a dangerous guy.
GRACE: And to Jean Casarez, it`s my understanding testimony today was it took her up to five minutes of this to die?
CASAREZ: Yes, three to five minutes is what the medical examiner said, because her esophagus and her carotid artery were completely cut through. The trachea was almost cut through, so the blood was flowing into the tissues and into the trachea as she lay dying for three to five minutes.
GRACE: With me, Court TV correspondent Jean Casarez there at the trial. Jean, thank you.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Ari Brown-Weeks, just 23, Abington, Maryland, killed, Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star and the National Defense Service Medal, wanted to be a cop or firefighter. Always smiling, loved jokes, poetry, e-mailing home, leaves behind parents John and Catherine and widow, his new bride, Ashley. Ari Brown-Weeks, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but most of all to you, for being with us. And a special thank you tonight to Shirley Lanford (ph) in Macon, Georgia, for hand-knitting these two soft little blankets for the twins. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
